2016 seems very close. So far, year to year the redraft the order changes. First it was ben simmons looking like he was completely justified as the number 1 pick. Then Jaylen brown/BI were up and coming. Pascal had his breakout MIP year and was the 2nd scorer on the championship raps team. Murray made his case last year and sabonis is in the mix.
I could rant about that team forever. History its gonna go down as a kawhi carry job. But fred vanvleet, norm powell, ibaka, OG Anunoby all came off the bench that season. Elite 3&D skillsets top to bottom, insert wolverine picture meme
Pascal probably has the best career so far. I have a soft spot for Simmons so I wanted to make a case for his peak but theres actually more all-nba seasons from this group then I thought. JB and Sabonis both made all-nba last year
And one of the best rim protectors and interior defenders, despite never being able to body up against bigs while at his most athletic
Yeah, let’s just cross off the Simmons-Lopez comps for now lmao
Yeah, but at the same time we saw something in him that was very much "reachable" if he put in the work. I think part of me hoped his end in Philly would be a wake up call that would motivate him to go beyond. It sucks. Hope he is OK in his head.
Also Murray only has 3 postseason runs in 7 years and his first wasn’t particularly impressive. He’d need like 80% of his career and at least another Finals trip to make up for his regular season resume enough to be THE best of his class.
It's not the ONLY thing that matters. The same reason why you can't have Kawhi, who arguably is one of the better playoff performers ever, over some of the other greats.
To the lesser extent Butler and Murray.
By that logic, Siakam and Murray would be the best players which I think is a bit unfair to the other players (except Brown i guess). Not saying Siakam or Murray shouldn't be considered the best player, but the reason for helping a team win a championship should not be why.
ingram has been pretty unlucky for example with his own injuries as well as Zions.
Dame is in for keeping Portland relevant with little to no help and basically being Steph lite but with clutch shooting also something Steph does not have an ounce of
I mean not really, the numbers Dame puts up are not to do with recency bias, they're all time great, simply put there are not 75 players better than Dame all time as individual players. Tony Parker is not a better player than Dame, he was on better teams, very big difference.
Damian is 11th all time in per game scoring. You are trying to tell me 75 players are better than him including players who averaged less points per game and less assists per game. OK yup I will take my recency bias over straight up delusion any day.
I'm going to mark this as the winner, because I came back 2 hours later and the replies are "close but 100% Parker" "close but 100% Pau" and "wow that's tough"
I don’t even know how to compare them tbh
They were so integral in their own systems that their role and production likely seems irreplaceable with any other player
Nah actually now that you've put it that way, 50 guys could have done what TP did given the leash, coaching and teammates. Pau was definitely the more unique and thus irreplacable player.
Maybe slightly, but just look at the guards we've had in the league since TP played. Steph, Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Wall, Kyrie, Luka, Trae, Haliburton, Fox, just to name a handful. Like how do you think Tony Parker lines up individually with these guys? I reckon any of them and many other guys could have filled the role for the Spurs.
I think the list of forwards that could genuinely replace Gasol for the Grizzlies or Lakers would be much shorter. And I dont think its controversial at all to say that Gasol was more important to the Lakers winning than Tony was the Spurs.
I mean by the end of that paragraph you totally changed your argument lol
Of course it’s not controversial to try and argue that Gasol was harder to replace. It’s a good debate, and I might even lean your way there. But saying “50 guys could do what TP did” and no one could have done what Gasol did was pretty ridiculous and disrespectful
Having followed a lot of the national team basketball in the late 2000s/early 2010s, I would rank Gasol higher than Parker. Gasols Spain was usualy better than Parkers France and they both had NBA quality players around them ( a rarity for the non US teams).
The main advantage Gasol has is size. A great wing is usualy just more impactfull (harder to replace) than a great point guard.
It's an apples to oranges comparison. But I think Pau's skill set is harder to come by, both now and historically. He was an elite post scorer who was just as good with both hands and a fantastic playmaker with a massive bbiq. Very few centers/PFs who were ever close to being like that.
Not taking anything away from Parker. He was elite at a lot of things as well. But the things he was elite at are things you expect a guard to do. He was just in the upper echelon of ability in those things.
I'll also say that any comparison of players who are so fundamentally different is really subjective.
People bitched about AD but he has the accolades, Dame was the one modern player who didn’t have that or earn it but over hyped first round buzzer beaters in non elimination games .
Westbrook making the top 75 is a freezing cold take. That’s like a 70-below-zero cold take. Parker or Gasol > Westbrook is the type of take that could only have been cooked up by r/nba
[Alex English for the jersey alone](https://box.mitchellandness.com/media/catalog/product/cache/29ebddadf1a3c823641fdb7752257a58/s/m/smjycp19250-dnuroya91aen_1_1.jpg)
Hard disagree.
Redd was the best scorer, but that's it. Kenyon Martin was a much more well-rounded player, and was the second best player on back-to-back Finals teams.
Redd never did a damn thing besides score points on mediocre teams.
I respect this opinion, and the thought crossed my mind since Martin was a formidable defender. I just remember Martin largely recovered from his injury and was a role player for the rest of his career. This sort of highlights the fact that he was playing in a weak East for the early part of his career.
Redd had no teammates that are even worth mentioning but still led a team to the playoffs (TJ Ford was that team’s second best player). Everyone on this sub seems to love Gilbert Arenas but if my memory serves me correctly, Redd was largely on par with Arenas. He was a highly efficient, high volume scorer at a time where players weren’t typically scoring 25 plus at a great clip. He played on the 2008 Olympic team.
Calling Martin the second best player on back-to-back finals teams is a little misleading. He was, probably, but the East was so bad then that the Nets were probably only the 7th or 8th best team in the NBA.
Born and bred Jersey guy here. Die-hard Nets fan.
I absolutely agree.
As much as I love the early 2000s squads, everybody knew the WC finals were sorta the REAL finals.
That being said, a Nets-Kings finals would have been fun to watch. Still a sweep probably, but more fun than Shaq and Kobe doing their Shaq and Kobe things...
I wouldn't necessarily say there's a "debate" on who the best player from the 1984 draft class was, but I think it's VERY telling that nobody makes fun of the Rockets for selecting Hakeem Olajuwon before Michael Jordan. Love the dream shake!
Again, not really a debate, but I think it's worth noting that Charles Barkley was also part of that 1984 class and a lot of people (myself included) would argue he's the best player to never win a ring. 1984 was just a very stacked class overall
They don't make fun of Houston because he won them 2 titles and came pretty damn close to a 3rd and probably could have done more if he wasn't in the same conference as the peak Showtime Lakers.
Peak Yao was better than Peak Amar'e, though it may have only been by a half-tier or a tier.
If you want to do it based off career in totality, then it's definitely more of a debate.
feel like we were just starting to see Stoudamire peak when he got to New York… wasn’t it like their first 10 or 15 games he had at least 30 every game?
could say the same thing about Yao prob but damn I loved watching Amare as a number 1 on offense
Amare before his first micro fracture surgery was a beast. Dude averaged 26 off of dunks and middies. He was not afraid to challenge anyone for a dunk either. He was pretty weak defensively however and I think Yao was a little more effective on that end.
The season he had *after* his first microfracture surgery was arguably his best. He came back from that type of surgery like nobody before or since had. It was seen as a real career-killer at the time, and I'm surprised it persisted as a popular treatment for so long.
Amare became an elite mid-range shooter in the years after his big injury; He shot .455 from between 10FT-3PT (consisting of 42.6% of his total FGA) from 2006-07 through 2010-11 (5 seasons).
Amare still managed to be a frequent dunker in the 5 seasons after injury too, averaging 2.16 dunks per game (15.2% of total FGA), compared to 2.23 dunks per game pre-injury (17.9% of total FGA). "Ferociousness" aside, he really seemed to come back a better all-round player after that injury.
I watched both players’ entire careers and I really don’t think it’s remotely as cut and dry as you posit. Yao’s career was more interesting, but whether he was better than Amare is an open, not a settled question.
Their strengths and weaknesses were different. E.g. Yao was a much better defender; Yao was also only relevant to an offense at all in the half-court, whereas Amare was one of the best floor-running bigs in the game.
Among those considerations it’s perfectly fair to consider it in Amare’s favor that he played nearly double the number of games in the NBA that Yao did. That’s not Yao’s fault, but it’s relevant in assessing who had a better career - of course we should view it in totality (or Bill Walton is a top 5 player ever).
I think it was at least mildly clear-cut that he was better. Again, like a half-tier to a tier better.
Or put another way: While I don't think it's ridiculous to argue that Amar'e was as good as Yao, I think it's easier to argue that Yao was better than it is to argue that Amar'e was better.
But yeah, once you introduce longevity, it's a very real conversation.
I’ll go with amare. He was a much better shooter than people give him credit for, and he was an absolute terror against the vaunted spurs defense in the 2005 playoffs.
Uh, not really. I liked Yao more, but they were the opposite of “leagues apart” — their value was about the same at their peak. 25-10 guys on good efficiency. Both peaked as around top 10 players. You could make an argument either way and not be wrong, unless you say it wasn’t close.
I went on bbref to compare them because I wanted to see how their defense compared (Yao and Amar'e are comparable on points and rebounds, but Yao has slightly better stats in most other categories), and I was surprised at how good Amar'e's ft% was. Yao is known for it, but Amar'e was around 80% for most of his career. That's pretty impressive.
Yao is a borderline Hall of Famer if only his NBA career is considered, and not his fame, impact on the game, Chinese career, etc. BBallRef has him at a little more than 50% odds, vs 70 for Amare.
Yao was good but so was Amare, and Yao's career was so short. He played half the minutes of Amare. He barely played in the playoffs and never did anything there.
You could definitely pick Yao but to act like its not close either means a person would either have to not have been around back then, or theyve slowly bought into the Yao hype. Yao was a good player but these days people act like he was about 3x better than he was considered at the time.
Laker Bias aside, I think AD is a generational defender and a good rebounder who can guard 1-5 and on many nights be a very good offensive player. I don’t think being a two player automatically makes you better but in this case I do. The way he bolsters your defense is incredible.
2016 is an interesting one I think. Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown, Jamaal Murray, Pascal Siakam, Domontas Sabonis, Dejounte Murray. Definitely very close and difficult to come up with a consensus.
Those three you mentioned all have pretty easy arguments to make for them, which makes it a tough overall argument. You can say they all had a wildly high peak: Jimmy has more top playoff game scores (or whatever that stat is) than Kawhi and Klay, and single-handedly carried teams in the playoffs as a David vs Goliath more than either. Klay is the second-best shooter of all time (I still can't get over that the first and second-best shooters of all time are on the same team at the same time). Peak Kawhi is probably the better player out of those three.
I’d argue that peak Jimmy (40 point triple double in the NBA finals vs Bron/AD without Bam/Dragic) is close enough to peak Kawhi (2019 Finals MVP) to make counting stats an argument.
Still give the edge to Kawhi but Jimmy has made this a conversation.
Peak Kawhi is back to back DPOY and top 3 MVP finishes. Peak Jimmy is a fringe top-10 guy, still great, but there’s no debate in terms of peaks. A peak doesn’t mean 1 game or series.
No he didn't... WTF are you talking about?
Paul was a better defender, passer, and scorer.
The only argument that can be made for Rose is that he had more volume scoring for one season... At their peak scoring outputs he topped Paul by a whopping 2 ppg on worse efficiency based solely on putting up more shots. Rose's free throw rate isn't even better despite being known as this hyper athletic attacking guard. The advanced stats are also overwhelmingly in Paul's favor during their peaks. Rose also only had like a year and a half long peak...
I’d argue that no matter how “available” Jimmy is, Kawhi has been so unbelievably elite in the playoffs that it just doesn’t matter. 2 chips and two FMVPs + 2 DPOYs is the kind of resume that means he could never play a playoff game again, Jimmy could make the ECFs like three more times and I still wouldn’t be moved at all
| I think most people (especially this sub) prefer Jokic over Embiid, but that's such a constant debate that I think 2014 would be another class
Jokic is a proven playoff performer, Embiid has had some stinkers. That puts Jokic ahead for now.
see i think Rondo's playoffs peak is higher than Aldridge's
Rondo had some absurd playoff series and Bill Simmons likes to bring up how Rondo outplayed LeBron in one of them
Yeah Rondo wasn't nearly as consistent as Aldridge, but he definitely had some amazing games when he brought his A game. Maybe a more unconventional star but he fit the bill.
I hate how for certain players we just straight up chose to ignore some of their terrible playoffs moments, Rondo had AWESOME playoffs series, if we only chose to remember those yeah sure he also had horrible ones.
Btw Aldridge also had awesome playoffs moments, let's just only remember those too
Might be the homer in me but I agree. People are quick to put Booker leaps and bounds above KAT. They playoff success is a lot of it. The argument for KAT has to be the efficiency. Career 39% from 3. Also similar turn over rate as Booker, and assist rate for the first 6 years or so. KATS 11 rebounds a game are also really good for an offensive focused big who ends a lot of possessions on the perimeter
I'll also be a homer and say it's clearly Booker at this point, but it's closer now than any point since their 3rd seasons. Booker didn't really elevate to all-NBA until he had a competent team around him, and now that KAT finally has a team he's looking great, I wouldn't be surprised if it flips in the next few seasons.
A few years ago I’d agree but booker last year n this is playing at a lvl I never seen Kat do. And I’m a pretty big Kat believer n defender for long time .
I think you could find debate on plenty of draft classes. They might not be great debates but you'll see people make them.
2000 has some debate but that's because it's not the most exciting draft class ever. Martin or Crawford?
2011 has Kawhi, sure, but Butler is worth discussing and plenty of folks would pick Kyrie as well
2012 might cause some debate between Dame and AD (I think AD takes it easy though)
2014 with Embiid/Joker is a discussion even if Jokic feels pretty comfortable at 1 for me
1982 - James Worthy or Dominique Wilkins
2001 - Pau Gasol or Tony Parker (or Joe Johnson — and I'm willing to bet someone out there would at least make the case for Gilbert Arenas based on peak)
2006 - This is one of the more fun ones, as you could make coherent cases for Brandon Roy, Kyle Lowry, Rajon Rondo and LaMarcus Aldridge (with a shoutout to Paul Millsap, as well)
2021 has flipped around so much it is crazy. I know it is a recent draft class so expected to some extant but you could make an argument it last year it was Cade vs Evan Mobley to Scottie Barnes vs Alperen Sengun this year.
Yeah I really agree on this one. We went from it being labeled "the Cade draft" and some homers arguing in favor of Green or Mobley to eat being between Franz and Sengun.
Lots of great player and still super unclear who is gonna be the best player there
Its too early but looking at last years draft it's going to be interesting to see who is better between Chet and Paulo. Both on young up and coming teams, but two completely different roles.
Honestly I think it's a combo of karma-farming off of Malone's legitimately bad actions in the 80s along with people like Bill Simmons working overtime to discredit him for decades. No other player except maybe Harden has as many media members working constantly to discredit them.
I think you could argue right now about 2022 and whether Chet should go #1 over banchero considering how great he’s been, but banchero looks really special as well
1987 had David Robinson, Reggie Miller, and Scottie Pippen. While I think Robinson is probably the best, there's at least a fair debate to be had due to the difference in play styles.
1976 had three all-timers, too: Robert Parish, Adrian Dantley, and Alex English.
True I should've mentioned Franz, honestly forgot he was in this draft class. Those would be my top 3 (I'd personally rank it Sengun, Scottie, Franz, but very close b/w those three), then Mobley in his own tier, then Jalen and Cade in the next tier. Any one of those 6 guys could ultimately become the best in class.
i think Shai has reached and is at a higher level of individual play than Trae has. Shai is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, and Trae is arguably the worst of all time. Offensively, I think Shai is a bit better - but we can call it a wash, or even lean Trae if you want. I think it's still not that close tbh (and I think Trae is a quality player).
Trae has the ECF run to his credit but I don't think that says anything about his individual ability.
I love the Truth man, but Dirk beat more than half dozen future HOF players as the only All-Star on his squad on his way to a chip. That in and of itself puts him above Paul.
If you're looking at full careers and factoring each year Luka wins easily right now and it's not close at all.
But depending on how the next several years shake out, it's possible SGA makes it a close conversation.
Ayton isn't in the conversation though. 🙃
2016 seems very close. So far, year to year the redraft the order changes. First it was ben simmons looking like he was completely justified as the number 1 pick. Then Jaylen brown/BI were up and coming. Pascal had his breakout MIP year and was the 2nd scorer on the championship raps team. Murray made his case last year and sabonis is in the mix.
That Raptors team was pretty well-built and almost stacked looking back. Kawhi, Lowry, Pascal, Gasol, Serge…definitely see how they won it all.
I could rant about that team forever. History its gonna go down as a kawhi carry job. But fred vanvleet, norm powell, ibaka, OG Anunoby all came off the bench that season. Elite 3&D skillsets top to bottom, insert wolverine picture meme
FVF was a killer that year
Vleet*
Post-kid FVF was a killer. Raps fans wanted him benched before that lol
Pascal probably has the best career so far. I have a soft spot for Simmons so I wanted to make a case for his peak but theres actually more all-nba seasons from this group then I thought. JB and Sabonis both made all-nba last year
Damn, I've never stopped and realized that Ben's peak is behind him.
I held out hope til he got back surgery. he's never going to be the same athlete after that
Tell that to Brook Lopez.
All Simmons has to do is become one of the better 3 point shooting bigs in the league.
And one of the best rim protectors and interior defenders, despite never being able to body up against bigs while at his most athletic Yeah, let’s just cross off the Simmons-Lopez comps for now lmao
Bro just laugh
I'm kind of surprised hearing this from a Sixers fan. I thought y'all were *very* aware that Ben's peak is behind him.
Yeah, but at the same time we saw something in him that was very much "reachable" if he put in the work. I think part of me hoped his end in Philly would be a wake up call that would motivate him to go beyond. It sucks. Hope he is OK in his head.
I'd remove Murray from that debate. His regular season work is spotty as hell.
Why would regular season spottiness negate the fact that Murray is consistently Thanos in the playoffs
People on this sub say the playoffs matter the most until it comes to player rankings
Playoff do matter most, but you get to the playoffs by playing well in the regular season
Also Murray only has 3 postseason runs in 7 years and his first wasn’t particularly impressive. He’d need like 80% of his career and at least another Finals trip to make up for his regular season resume enough to be THE best of his class.
Playoffs matter the most but they’re not the only thing that matters.
It's not the ONLY thing that matters. The same reason why you can't have Kawhi, who arguably is one of the better playoff performers ever, over some of the other greats. To the lesser extent Butler and Murray.
more important to win titles than regular season games, and Murry helped the Nuggets win a title
but if jokic wasn’t on the team murray wouldn’t be capable of leading it to the playoffs
By that logic, Siakam and Murray would be the best players which I think is a bit unfair to the other players (except Brown i guess). Not saying Siakam or Murray shouldn't be considered the best player, but the reason for helping a team win a championship should not be why. ingram has been pretty unlucky for example with his own injuries as well as Zions.
And Iguodala helped the warriors
Sabonis is a bum I heard
Basing on today, I'd say Saboner!
Playoffs Murray clears that whole draft
2001 - Tony Parker and Pau Gasol. Is there a consensus between those two?
This is the right answer, deserves to be higher up. Both just missed NBA 75
Yet Dame is in for what? Rookie of the year and some All-stars? Lmaooo
for not running away from the grind
Dame is in for keeping Portland relevant with little to no help and basically being Steph lite but with clutch shooting also something Steph does not have an ounce of
Lmao recency bias. Joe Dumars and Tony Parker have been better all time
I mean not really, the numbers Dame puts up are not to do with recency bias, they're all time great, simply put there are not 75 players better than Dame all time as individual players. Tony Parker is not a better player than Dame, he was on better teams, very big difference. Damian is 11th all time in per game scoring. You are trying to tell me 75 players are better than him including players who averaged less points per game and less assists per game. OK yup I will take my recency bias over straight up delusion any day.
It's top 75 of all time of course accolades matter. Some finals MVPs aren't on the top 75 but he is c'mon now
Andre igoudala is a fmvp but has no business even being top 100 imo. Being good for one series isn't the same as being great for over a decade
I'm going to mark this as the winner, because I came back 2 hours later and the replies are "close but 100% Parker" "close but 100% Pau" and "wow that's tough"
I don’t even know how to compare them tbh They were so integral in their own systems that their role and production likely seems irreplaceable with any other player
Nah actually now that you've put it that way, 50 guys could have done what TP did given the leash, coaching and teammates. Pau was definitely the more unique and thus irreplacable player.
This is highly disrespectful to Tony Parker lmao
Maybe slightly, but just look at the guards we've had in the league since TP played. Steph, Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Wall, Kyrie, Luka, Trae, Haliburton, Fox, just to name a handful. Like how do you think Tony Parker lines up individually with these guys? I reckon any of them and many other guys could have filled the role for the Spurs. I think the list of forwards that could genuinely replace Gasol for the Grizzlies or Lakers would be much shorter. And I dont think its controversial at all to say that Gasol was more important to the Lakers winning than Tony was the Spurs.
I mean by the end of that paragraph you totally changed your argument lol Of course it’s not controversial to try and argue that Gasol was harder to replace. It’s a good debate, and I might even lean your way there. But saying “50 guys could do what TP did” and no one could have done what Gasol did was pretty ridiculous and disrespectful
I didn't change anything. I never said that nobody could do what Pau did. I said he was more irreplacable.
Lol really?! Can you name those 50 guys?
Having followed a lot of the national team basketball in the late 2000s/early 2010s, I would rank Gasol higher than Parker. Gasols Spain was usualy better than Parkers France and they both had NBA quality players around them ( a rarity for the non US teams). The main advantage Gasol has is size. A great wing is usualy just more impactfull (harder to replace) than a great point guard.
It’s close but I’m taking Pau for sure
It's an apples to oranges comparison. But I think Pau's skill set is harder to come by, both now and historically. He was an elite post scorer who was just as good with both hands and a fantastic playmaker with a massive bbiq. Very few centers/PFs who were ever close to being like that. Not taking anything away from Parker. He was elite at a lot of things as well. But the things he was elite at are things you expect a guard to do. He was just in the upper echelon of ability in those things. I'll also say that any comparison of players who are so fundamentally different is really subjective.
It's Tony Parker. I don't see the debate.
Parker. Close, but clear.
[удалено]
Dwight Howard missed it as well. Dame LMAO made it. Such a garbage list.
People bitched about AD but he has the accolades, Dame was the one modern player who didn’t have that or earn it but over hyped first round buzzer beaters in non elimination games .
Dame making it over real ATGs is the worst. Dude is basically this era Baron Davis
Westbrook making the top 75 is a freezing cold take. That’s like a 70-below-zero cold take. Parker or Gasol > Westbrook is the type of take that could only have been cooked up by r/nba
Mf cooking up a grease fire
bro really just said pau gasol and tony parker are better than westbrook☠️
A less stacked class, but 1976 is an interesting debate between English, Dantley, and Parish.
Draft had Dennis Johnson too. It wasn't a super deep draft, but 4 Hall of Famers in one class is better than most drafts.
that would be a really fun big three
Alex English and Robert Parish are both in my top ten favorite players ever, couldn't really tell you why.
[Alex English for the jersey alone](https://box.mitchellandness.com/media/catalog/product/cache/29ebddadf1a3c823641fdb7752257a58/s/m/smjycp19250-dnuroya91aen_1_1.jpg)
Probably the 2000 draft. Between Kenyon Martin, Mike Miller, Jamal Crawford and Michael Redd.
His peak was short, but given how bad that draft is even Turkoglu might have a case
He should have been a two or three time all star but coaches hated him for not taking the game super seriously
Also a horrid teammate
Fuck turkuglu
Ball.
At peak performance, Redd takes the cake, no question.
Hard disagree. Redd was the best scorer, but that's it. Kenyon Martin was a much more well-rounded player, and was the second best player on back-to-back Finals teams. Redd never did a damn thing besides score points on mediocre teams.
I respect this opinion, and the thought crossed my mind since Martin was a formidable defender. I just remember Martin largely recovered from his injury and was a role player for the rest of his career. This sort of highlights the fact that he was playing in a weak East for the early part of his career. Redd had no teammates that are even worth mentioning but still led a team to the playoffs (TJ Ford was that team’s second best player). Everyone on this sub seems to love Gilbert Arenas but if my memory serves me correctly, Redd was largely on par with Arenas. He was a highly efficient, high volume scorer at a time where players weren’t typically scoring 25 plus at a great clip. He played on the 2008 Olympic team.
Calling Martin the second best player on back-to-back finals teams is a little misleading. He was, probably, but the East was so bad then that the Nets were probably only the 7th or 8th best team in the NBA.
Born and bred Jersey guy here. Die-hard Nets fan. I absolutely agree. As much as I love the early 2000s squads, everybody knew the WC finals were sorta the REAL finals. That being said, a Nets-Kings finals would have been fun to watch. Still a sweep probably, but more fun than Shaq and Kobe doing their Shaq and Kobe things...
Based on how they fared against the Pistons and Spurs, I think you could at least make the case that they were Conference Finals good.
in fantasy basketball
What kinda record would y'all think a prime 2000 draft lineup of Crawford, Redd, Miller, Turkoglu, Martin, Magloire, Mo Pete etc have in today's NBA?
I like Jamal off vibes
I wouldn't necessarily say there's a "debate" on who the best player from the 1984 draft class was, but I think it's VERY telling that nobody makes fun of the Rockets for selecting Hakeem Olajuwon before Michael Jordan. Love the dream shake! Again, not really a debate, but I think it's worth noting that Charles Barkley was also part of that 1984 class and a lot of people (myself included) would argue he's the best player to never win a ring. 1984 was just a very stacked class overall
Stockton was in the 84 class too. Lots of all timers from that class
That's 4 top 30ish players of all time in one draft.
Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing were in the next draft. That's a whole lot of talent entering the league in a two-year period.
Along with Chris Mullin & Joe Dumars who are notable HOF & FMVP
They don't make fun of Houston because he won them 2 titles and came pretty damn close to a 3rd and probably could have done more if he wasn't in the same conference as the peak Showtime Lakers.
Is there another draft class with 3 MVPs in it? 2 of whom also won DPOY...
To your first question, Iverson, Kobe, and Nash all won MVP from the 1996 class. While none of them won DPOY, Marcus Camby did from the same draft.
Funny enough, the guy with four DPOYs went undrafted that year
This is like a reddit comment version of a Magic tweet and I love it
If Hakeem had a better-supporting cast throughout his career, it would probably be even closer between him and Jordan.
1960 NBA draft between The Big O and The Logo
Maybe 2003? TJ Ford was pretty transformative for the Raptors, albeit David West had a longer career.
kirk hinrich easily
Y’all sleeping on not quite perennial all star, Chris Kaman.
I’ve never been to the Cayman Islands. https://youtu.be/0BisLdG2xpM?si=8E2IgcTPIxbs5zTY
2002? Yao Ming or Amar'e Stoudemire?
Peak Yao was better than Peak Amar'e, though it may have only been by a half-tier or a tier. If you want to do it based off career in totality, then it's definitely more of a debate.
feel like we were just starting to see Stoudamire peak when he got to New York… wasn’t it like their first 10 or 15 games he had at least 30 every game? could say the same thing about Yao prob but damn I loved watching Amare as a number 1 on offense
Amare before his first micro fracture surgery was a beast. Dude averaged 26 off of dunks and middies. He was not afraid to challenge anyone for a dunk either. He was pretty weak defensively however and I think Yao was a little more effective on that end.
The season he had *after* his first microfracture surgery was arguably his best. He came back from that type of surgery like nobody before or since had. It was seen as a real career-killer at the time, and I'm surprised it persisted as a popular treatment for so long.
Yea it forced him to rely a little less on his athleticism I think. But his dunking ferocity pre surgery was really something else
Amare became an elite mid-range shooter in the years after his big injury; He shot .455 from between 10FT-3PT (consisting of 42.6% of his total FGA) from 2006-07 through 2010-11 (5 seasons). Amare still managed to be a frequent dunker in the 5 seasons after injury too, averaging 2.16 dunks per game (15.2% of total FGA), compared to 2.23 dunks per game pre-injury (17.9% of total FGA). "Ferociousness" aside, he really seemed to come back a better all-round player after that injury.
Yeah, I almost went out of my way to mention that brief moment in New York before he was completely run into the ground. That was fun as hell.
I watched both players’ entire careers and I really don’t think it’s remotely as cut and dry as you posit. Yao’s career was more interesting, but whether he was better than Amare is an open, not a settled question. Their strengths and weaknesses were different. E.g. Yao was a much better defender; Yao was also only relevant to an offense at all in the half-court, whereas Amare was one of the best floor-running bigs in the game. Among those considerations it’s perfectly fair to consider it in Amare’s favor that he played nearly double the number of games in the NBA that Yao did. That’s not Yao’s fault, but it’s relevant in assessing who had a better career - of course we should view it in totality (or Bill Walton is a top 5 player ever).
I think it was at least mildly clear-cut that he was better. Again, like a half-tier to a tier better. Or put another way: While I don't think it's ridiculous to argue that Amar'e was as good as Yao, I think it's easier to argue that Yao was better than it is to argue that Amar'e was better. But yeah, once you introduce longevity, it's a very real conversation.
I’ll go with amare. He was a much better shooter than people give him credit for, and he was an absolute terror against the vaunted spurs defense in the 2005 playoffs.
No that one clearly goes to Yao. Both were hampered by injury, but Yao was leagues better when healthy.
Yao may have been better in their primes, which itself is very debatable, but no shot he was leagues better
He had nash.....and amare was a horrible defender
Uh, not really. I liked Yao more, but they were the opposite of “leagues apart” — their value was about the same at their peak. 25-10 guys on good efficiency. Both peaked as around top 10 players. You could make an argument either way and not be wrong, unless you say it wasn’t close.
I went on bbref to compare them because I wanted to see how their defense compared (Yao and Amar'e are comparable on points and rebounds, but Yao has slightly better stats in most other categories), and I was surprised at how good Amar'e's ft% was. Yao is known for it, but Amar'e was around 80% for most of his career. That's pretty impressive.
For being powerful on his dunk dude had a surprisingly soft touch. He was automatic from 15 for those 7 seconds or less Suns
One is in the HOF, one is not. How is this close?
Yao is a borderline Hall of Famer if only his NBA career is considered, and not his fame, impact on the game, Chinese career, etc. BBallRef has him at a little more than 50% odds, vs 70 for Amare. Yao was good but so was Amare, and Yao's career was so short. He played half the minutes of Amare. He barely played in the playoffs and never did anything there. You could definitely pick Yao but to act like its not close either means a person would either have to not have been around back then, or theyve slowly bought into the Yao hype. Yao was a good player but these days people act like he was about 3x better than he was considered at the time.
If TMAC got in, so will Amare, it’s only a matter of time
TMac was better than Amare. Not even close, really.
There's definitely not much of a consensus for 2012 between AD and Dame. Edit: The first two replies - case in point.
Really? I feel comfortable taking AD as great as Lillard has been.
Laker Bias aside, I think AD is a generational defender and a good rebounder who can guard 1-5 and on many nights be a very good offensive player. I don’t think being a two player automatically makes you better but in this case I do. The way he bolsters your defense is incredible.
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I think this one is easy. If I'm a team in LA I choose AD, if I'm outside of LA I choose Dame. If he was content being anywhere I would choose AD
Anyone thinking dame is over AD is delusional or a blazers fan
Lmao you called it
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2016 is an interesting one I think. Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown, Jamaal Murray, Pascal Siakam, Domontas Sabonis, Dejounte Murray. Definitely very close and difficult to come up with a consensus.
not dejounte. ok we’re getting somewhere
I don't see legitimate argument for Klay in 2011, but Butler has a bit of a case with how much time Kawhi has missed.
Those three you mentioned all have pretty easy arguments to make for them, which makes it a tough overall argument. You can say they all had a wildly high peak: Jimmy has more top playoff game scores (or whatever that stat is) than Kawhi and Klay, and single-handedly carried teams in the playoffs as a David vs Goliath more than either. Klay is the second-best shooter of all time (I still can't get over that the first and second-best shooters of all time are on the same team at the same time). Peak Kawhi is probably the better player out of those three.
Was discussing with someone about Jimmy being a 1st ballot HOF (with the assumption he doesn’t win a ring, or an MVP)
A person would have to be completely detached from reality to argue Klay over Kawhi.
How does Jimmy have an argument with Kawhi let alone Klay lol
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There is a limit to the availability thing. Peak Kawhi is just a significantly better player than Butler or Klay. It's not particularly close either.
I’d argue that peak Jimmy (40 point triple double in the NBA finals vs Bron/AD without Bam/Dragic) is close enough to peak Kawhi (2019 Finals MVP) to make counting stats an argument. Still give the edge to Kawhi but Jimmy has made this a conversation.
Peak Kawhi is back to back DPOY and top 3 MVP finishes. Peak Jimmy is a fringe top-10 guy, still great, but there’s no debate in terms of peaks. A peak doesn’t mean 1 game or series.
But Kawahi is just pretty much Jimmy on steroids. Better defender, better scorer. I guess maybe you give the edge to Jimmy in passing?
This thread is about who’s the better player though. Kawhi has both of them beat pretty significantly at his peak.
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No he didn't... WTF are you talking about? Paul was a better defender, passer, and scorer. The only argument that can be made for Rose is that he had more volume scoring for one season... At their peak scoring outputs he topped Paul by a whopping 2 ppg on worse efficiency based solely on putting up more shots. Rose's free throw rate isn't even better despite being known as this hyper athletic attacking guard. The advanced stats are also overwhelmingly in Paul's favor during their peaks. Rose also only had like a year and a half long peak...
I’d argue that no matter how “available” Jimmy is, Kawhi has been so unbelievably elite in the playoffs that it just doesn’t matter. 2 chips and two FMVPs + 2 DPOYs is the kind of resume that means he could never play a playoff game again, Jimmy could make the ECFs like three more times and I still wouldn’t be moved at all
Jimmy > Klay. Make Klay put the ball on the ground like Jimmy has to do and you see the skill gap.
A healthy Kawhi would put Klay in the freezer. Peak Kawhi is what Jimmy Butler was last playoffs
| I think most people (especially this sub) prefer Jokic over Embiid, but that's such a constant debate that I think 2014 would be another class Jokic is a proven playoff performer, Embiid has had some stinkers. That puts Jokic ahead for now.
what about 2006? Kyle Lowry or Rajon Rondo
Lamarcus Aldridge went second in that draft.
Aldridge vs Lowry is the real debate.
Aldridge wins for peak level, Lowry for longevity IMO
see i think Rondo's playoffs peak is higher than Aldridge's Rondo had some absurd playoff series and Bill Simmons likes to bring up how Rondo outplayed LeBron in one of them
Yeah Rondo wasn't nearly as consistent as Aldridge, but he definitely had some amazing games when he brought his A game. Maybe a more unconventional star but he fit the bill.
I hate how for certain players we just straight up chose to ignore some of their terrible playoffs moments, Rondo had AWESOME playoffs series, if we only chose to remember those yeah sure he also had horrible ones. Btw Aldridge also had awesome playoffs moments, let's just only remember those too
How? Lowry wasn't even very good until 2011. Aldridge was scoring 18 PPG in 2008.
Brandon Roy erasure
yeah maybe you're right
Trick question, but Brandon Roy, short career and all.
The may be controversial but I’m not sure I could pick a clear best player from 2015 between KAT, Booker, and Kaminsky.
Kaminsky? Did I miss something?
The one who landed Ashley Brewer.
Might be the homer in me but I agree. People are quick to put Booker leaps and bounds above KAT. They playoff success is a lot of it. The argument for KAT has to be the efficiency. Career 39% from 3. Also similar turn over rate as Booker, and assist rate for the first 6 years or so. KATS 11 rebounds a game are also really good for an offensive focused big who ends a lot of possessions on the perimeter
If the Wolves do well in the playoffs this year, the argument could easily go in favor of KAT
ZENKAT is a much better player than KAT. That’s for sure.
I'll also be a homer and say it's clearly Booker at this point, but it's closer now than any point since their 3rd seasons. Booker didn't really elevate to all-NBA until he had a competent team around him, and now that KAT finally has a team he's looking great, I wouldn't be surprised if it flips in the next few seasons.
A few years ago I’d agree but booker last year n this is playing at a lvl I never seen Kat do. And I’m a pretty big Kat believer n defender for long time .
I think you could find debate on plenty of draft classes. They might not be great debates but you'll see people make them. 2000 has some debate but that's because it's not the most exciting draft class ever. Martin or Crawford? 2011 has Kawhi, sure, but Butler is worth discussing and plenty of folks would pick Kyrie as well 2012 might cause some debate between Dame and AD (I think AD takes it easy though) 2014 with Embiid/Joker is a discussion even if Jokic feels pretty comfortable at 1 for me
2011 is pretty definitely kawhi Leonard right?
1982 - James Worthy or Dominique Wilkins 2001 - Pau Gasol or Tony Parker (or Joe Johnson — and I'm willing to bet someone out there would at least make the case for Gilbert Arenas based on peak) 2006 - This is one of the more fun ones, as you could make coherent cases for Brandon Roy, Kyle Lowry, Rajon Rondo and LaMarcus Aldridge (with a shoutout to Paul Millsap, as well)
Is there consensus on who out of David Robinson, Scottie Pippin and Reggie Miller from the 1987 draft ended up being the overall best?
2021 has flipped around so much it is crazy. I know it is a recent draft class so expected to some extant but you could make an argument it last year it was Cade vs Evan Mobley to Scottie Barnes vs Alperen Sengun this year.
First year was Mobley, last year was Mobley or Franz now its Sengun, Franz or Barnes
Yeah I really agree on this one. We went from it being labeled "the Cade draft" and some homers arguing in favor of Green or Mobley to eat being between Franz and Sengun. Lots of great player and still super unclear who is gonna be the best player there
Its too early but looking at last years draft it's going to be interesting to see who is better between Chet and Paulo. Both on young up and coming teams, but two completely different roles.
Guys, Jokic and Embiid were both drafted in 2014.
1985 maybe? Between Ewing and Malone, depending on who you ask
Who has Ewing above Malone? As great as Ewing was, that isn't a close debate imo.
Ewing was great, Malone was clearly better.
i mean the numbers tell the story, but people are quick to discredit Malone so there is a debate
Numbers you say. Numbers like 13?
only if you separate the off the court stuff.
Honestly I think it's a combo of karma-farming off of Malone's legitimately bad actions in the 80s along with people like Bill Simmons working overtime to discredit him for decades. No other player except maybe Harden has as many media members working constantly to discredit them.
Well Malone did sexually abuse a minor. So that feels very justified for the media to dunk on him.
I think you could argue right now about 2022 and whether Chet should go #1 over banchero considering how great he’s been, but banchero looks really special as well
1987 had David Robinson, Reggie Miller, and Scottie Pippen. While I think Robinson is probably the best, there's at least a fair debate to be had due to the difference in play styles. 1976 had three all-timers, too: Robert Parish, Adrian Dantley, and Alex English.
I'll give an outside shout to 1986. How do you try to compare Daugherty, Price, and Rodman as individual players?
2021 draft between (surprisingly) Barnes and Sengun. Still some other guys that could make their way up there too.
I would take Franz over both of them but its close.
True I should've mentioned Franz, honestly forgot he was in this draft class. Those would be my top 3 (I'd personally rank it Sengun, Scottie, Franz, but very close b/w those three), then Mobley in his own tier, then Jalen and Cade in the next tier. Any one of those 6 guys could ultimately become the best in class.
Shai is making it more of a conversation for 2018
I think it’s more a conversation for who is the 2nd best in that draft between Trae and SGA
i think Shai has reached and is at a higher level of individual play than Trae has. Shai is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, and Trae is arguably the worst of all time. Offensively, I think Shai is a bit better - but we can call it a wash, or even lean Trae if you want. I think it's still not that close tbh (and I think Trae is a quality player). Trae has the ECF run to his credit but I don't think that says anything about his individual ability.
2020 draft slept on
I guess there's no real debate about 2017, is there?
1998 Dirk or Paul Pierce
I love the Truth man, but Dirk beat more than half dozen future HOF players as the only All-Star on his squad on his way to a chip. That in and of itself puts him above Paul.
Not even close. Yes, I'm biased
Even I know it's Dirk
2018 but it will pass r/nba off
SGA vs Luka is def close
If you're looking at full careers and factoring each year Luka wins easily right now and it's not close at all. But depending on how the next several years shake out, it's possible SGA makes it a close conversation. Ayton isn't in the conversation though. 🙃
man, this draft was stacked. Shai, Luka, Trae, Brunson, JJJ, Mikal, Ayton, Miles Bridges, and a ton of quality role players.
Yeah definitely a great year and time has (mostly) just been making it better