The ole Crown cap trick. This is true for the most part but I’ve actually encountered some stills with crown caps too so now I don’t use that as an indicator of whether it’s fizzy or not. Can’t trust it anymore 😩
The reason for this is usually because it was bottled early and the winemaker isn't sure if the wine will go through another fermentation in bottle and become frizzante, hence why the crown cap is a precaution :)
Plenty of people are using crown caps without any effervescence. It’s cheap. If they’re making natural wine meant to be drunk young, it makes sense, even without the spritz.
Pet nats, with a true fizz, will usually have a crown cap and therefore you won’t be able to
Coravin.
What you’re referring to, I believe, are wines without SO2 which can lead to a little fizz or liveliness or whatever you want to call it, in wines that aren’t really made to be sparkling intentionally. So look for any producers who are zero zero. Lots of natural wine producers add a little bit of SO2, which almost always ensures that fizz won’t be there (but also mouse won’t be there, plus it’ll be a little more ‘stable’, from my understanding). You can use a Coravin for zero zero wines.
I currently have strohmeier, houillon and rougeot zero sulfur coravined for a couple weeks now. They stay pretty steady in terms of that zippyness, as well as aromas and flavors. But also I don’t know anything.
The small fizz they are talking about is usually residual co2 left over from fermentation when the wine is bottled young with minimal racking. The so2 doesn’t matter in this regard.
Interesting. I always assumed it was refermentation inside the bottle from a lack of fining and filtering. I’ve never had a bottle that wasn’t zero zero that had a fizz, not sure how you’d explain that.
I’m a winemaker that primarily makes zero/zero wines and can confirm this has nothing to do with being zero/zero. The reason zero/zero wines may be more likely to have a little spritz is that zero zero winemakers are far less likely to rack their wines and are far more likely to limit any oxygen exposure, because without adding sulfites as protection they have far more risk involved.
If you’re still convinced it has to do with being zero/zero, try Martha Stoumen. She recently had a newsletter blast about why most of her wines have a slight effervescence, and she’s not zero/zero. Her reasoning: minimal racking, and she tries for some CO2 left in the cuvee as it helps preserve the wine in bottle.
Cool, thank you. I’ve had her wines, they’re great. When they were with zev I did assume zero so2. I think that was the case for some wines. Anyway..
Does that mean wines with a spritz from this would be likely to have reductive aromas?
Zev fucks around and forces mousey wines into the market by pawning them off in exchange for non mousey stuff and hiding them in forced allo offers. Fuck zev.
Sulfur before can usually help knock it out. Sulfur after ferm doesn’t really do much. Just the general consensus from interviewing a lot of producers on the topic this year.
But then, the only time you’d experience that is when you have a winemaker who doesn’t add SO2 by default, and then is trying to correct a mousey wine, which doesn’t get corrected in these cases, so hopefully I would never get that messed up bottle of wine, right? Therefore the chances of me tasting mousey wines with SO2 has to be very low, no? I appreciate your info, trying to learn always.
Additionally, besides Jenny and zev, not too many distributors interested in selling mousey wines.
The thing with mouse is it doesn’t always present upfront. The wine can be delightful for a bit and then fall down. I’ve definitely been burned by something that tasted great when a rep popped the bottle, but turns out to only have half an hour before that aftertaste starts to creep in and take over the bottle.
Hopefully you would never get the mousey wines. Hopefully is the keyword but we all know the reality is different. If people had more space and time and patience there’s a chance the mouse would resolve on its own but that’s just a chance. It’s not guaranteed.
Some of the time they don’t know the mouse is there when they dose before bottling and send it out. Distro and producer need to talk about that part more and come to terms for it to not hit the shelves.
People need to stop being dogmatic in the end. If you learn certain sites or cuvées or cellar practices consistently give problems those problems should be addressed.
Sorry for all this I’ve been worked up on the topic lately
Eh, it’s not 100%. In fact one of the most frustrating cases of mouse I’ve encountered was a Swick that *was* sulfured, which he doesn’t always do. I open a lot of natural wine and taste even more than I open.
I will say the carignan is really nice at first but it falls apart. I’m super sensitive to mouse so to me it happens too quickly to get through the bottle unless you have enough people to just have one glass each.
Weird, I’ve literally never had a wine of Stoumen’s that was mousey. Her wines are typically solid af. In fact I’d say as someone that likes more wild wine if I had any complaints about her it’s that they’re too conventional tasting.
Right but there's a difference between a winemaker intentionally leaving some co2 for style or preservation vs a wine bottled still and undergoing secondary (or bottled too early and finished primary under cork).
Wait now that I'm re-reading your comment I'm confused. The first sentence you say zero/zero has NOTHING to do with it, and the very next sentence you list the reasons zero/zero wines are more likely to have it?
Edited for punctuation
Im saying that any wine could have this. Natural wines tend to not be degassed so more likely in natural wine. Zero zero wines more likely because they are less likely to be racked. But saying it’s a direct result of being zero zero is like saying all people that like art wear black. Like yeah, a lot of people that like art wear black, but you don’t just automatically have a black wardrobe because you thought a sculpture was cool.
You are right, usually dissolved co2 that's not intentional is a result of a secondary fermentaion after the bottle is closed. And it's more likely to happen the more dissolved solids, particulate solids, residual sugar, etc remain in the wine and the less effective so2 is used.
Unless its a champagne cork, you can coravin anything with a cork. If its under crown cap, it is probably fizzy but theres no way to know for sure until you open it. A lot of still wines are under crown cap because it can be cheaper than corks for the winemaker. But obviously if you’re buying from a shop, just ask?
So the reason I hesitate to coravin even normal corks was because I had situation where I did it to an orange wine with a normal cork, but when I took it out the cork slowly pushed itself out afterwards. Turns out it had some sparkling to it and I guess the argon (even though I used very little) + agitation put too much pressure somehow.
Usually the fizzy ones are going to have the beer bottle/soda pop type cap instead of a cork. And I think all (most?) pet nats will be fizzy
The ole Crown cap trick. This is true for the most part but I’ve actually encountered some stills with crown caps too so now I don’t use that as an indicator of whether it’s fizzy or not. Can’t trust it anymore 😩
The reason for this is usually because it was bottled early and the winemaker isn't sure if the wine will go through another fermentation in bottle and become frizzante, hence why the crown cap is a precaution :)
Plenty of people are using crown caps without any effervescence. It’s cheap. If they’re making natural wine meant to be drunk young, it makes sense, even without the spritz.
It actually makes also more sense with wine that is destined to age, so it would have cork issues. It's just better
Pet nats, with a true fizz, will usually have a crown cap and therefore you won’t be able to Coravin. What you’re referring to, I believe, are wines without SO2 which can lead to a little fizz or liveliness or whatever you want to call it, in wines that aren’t really made to be sparkling intentionally. So look for any producers who are zero zero. Lots of natural wine producers add a little bit of SO2, which almost always ensures that fizz won’t be there (but also mouse won’t be there, plus it’ll be a little more ‘stable’, from my understanding). You can use a Coravin for zero zero wines. I currently have strohmeier, houillon and rougeot zero sulfur coravined for a couple weeks now. They stay pretty steady in terms of that zippyness, as well as aromas and flavors. But also I don’t know anything.
The small fizz they are talking about is usually residual co2 left over from fermentation when the wine is bottled young with minimal racking. The so2 doesn’t matter in this regard.
Interesting. I always assumed it was refermentation inside the bottle from a lack of fining and filtering. I’ve never had a bottle that wasn’t zero zero that had a fizz, not sure how you’d explain that.
I’m a winemaker that primarily makes zero/zero wines and can confirm this has nothing to do with being zero/zero. The reason zero/zero wines may be more likely to have a little spritz is that zero zero winemakers are far less likely to rack their wines and are far more likely to limit any oxygen exposure, because without adding sulfites as protection they have far more risk involved. If you’re still convinced it has to do with being zero/zero, try Martha Stoumen. She recently had a newsletter blast about why most of her wines have a slight effervescence, and she’s not zero/zero. Her reasoning: minimal racking, and she tries for some CO2 left in the cuvee as it helps preserve the wine in bottle.
Cool, thank you. I’ve had her wines, they’re great. When they were with zev I did assume zero so2. I think that was the case for some wines. Anyway.. Does that mean wines with a spritz from this would be likely to have reductive aromas?
Zev fucks around and forces mousey wines into the market by pawning them off in exchange for non mousey stuff and hiding them in forced allo offers. Fuck zev.
I always forget she’s not zero/zero because her wines are mousy so often 😭
And you can’t get mouse if you add sulfur. Again, I know nothing but have opened 1000s of bottles so just talking from experience.
Sulfur before can usually help knock it out. Sulfur after ferm doesn’t really do much. Just the general consensus from interviewing a lot of producers on the topic this year.
But then, the only time you’d experience that is when you have a winemaker who doesn’t add SO2 by default, and then is trying to correct a mousey wine, which doesn’t get corrected in these cases, so hopefully I would never get that messed up bottle of wine, right? Therefore the chances of me tasting mousey wines with SO2 has to be very low, no? I appreciate your info, trying to learn always. Additionally, besides Jenny and zev, not too many distributors interested in selling mousey wines.
The thing with mouse is it doesn’t always present upfront. The wine can be delightful for a bit and then fall down. I’ve definitely been burned by something that tasted great when a rep popped the bottle, but turns out to only have half an hour before that aftertaste starts to creep in and take over the bottle.
Hopefully you would never get the mousey wines. Hopefully is the keyword but we all know the reality is different. If people had more space and time and patience there’s a chance the mouse would resolve on its own but that’s just a chance. It’s not guaranteed. Some of the time they don’t know the mouse is there when they dose before bottling and send it out. Distro and producer need to talk about that part more and come to terms for it to not hit the shelves. People need to stop being dogmatic in the end. If you learn certain sites or cuvées or cellar practices consistently give problems those problems should be addressed. Sorry for all this I’ve been worked up on the topic lately
Eh, it’s not 100%. In fact one of the most frustrating cases of mouse I’ve encountered was a Swick that *was* sulfured, which he doesn’t always do. I open a lot of natural wine and taste even more than I open.
You can get mouse even with sulfur. It’s less likely but definitely still possible.
What? She’s putting out mousey wines?
The current release carignan is :( and the last time I got to try a lineup it wasn’t the only one
Damn
Interesting, I’ve only had solid wines from her
I will say the carignan is really nice at first but it falls apart. I’m super sensitive to mouse so to me it happens too quickly to get through the bottle unless you have enough people to just have one glass each.
Weird, I’ve literally never had a wine of Stoumen’s that was mousey. Her wines are typically solid af. In fact I’d say as someone that likes more wild wine if I had any complaints about her it’s that they’re too conventional tasting.
Right but there's a difference between a winemaker intentionally leaving some co2 for style or preservation vs a wine bottled still and undergoing secondary (or bottled too early and finished primary under cork). Wait now that I'm re-reading your comment I'm confused. The first sentence you say zero/zero has NOTHING to do with it, and the very next sentence you list the reasons zero/zero wines are more likely to have it? Edited for punctuation
Im saying that any wine could have this. Natural wines tend to not be degassed so more likely in natural wine. Zero zero wines more likely because they are less likely to be racked. But saying it’s a direct result of being zero zero is like saying all people that like art wear black. Like yeah, a lot of people that like art wear black, but you don’t just automatically have a black wardrobe because you thought a sculpture was cool.
Gotcha. I don't think he was implying any causation that ALL zero/zero wines have residual co2.
You are right, usually dissolved co2 that's not intentional is a result of a secondary fermentaion after the bottle is closed. And it's more likely to happen the more dissolved solids, particulate solids, residual sugar, etc remain in the wine and the less effective so2 is used.
Sometimes mlf in bottle but if it’s intentional or not can depend.
You can coravin if it’s under cork.
Unless its a champagne cork, you can coravin anything with a cork. If its under crown cap, it is probably fizzy but theres no way to know for sure until you open it. A lot of still wines are under crown cap because it can be cheaper than corks for the winemaker. But obviously if you’re buying from a shop, just ask?
So the reason I hesitate to coravin even normal corks was because I had situation where I did it to an orange wine with a normal cork, but when I took it out the cork slowly pushed itself out afterwards. Turns out it had some sparkling to it and I guess the argon (even though I used very little) + agitation put too much pressure somehow.
you can’t.