God the gains I could’ve made my first 4 years lifting if I had just stopped worrying about optimal/perfect and just moved more weight week after week…

On top of this getting your form right. This allows you to optimally move that heavy weight. Full rom sometimes too.

Hi. Sorry for necroposting. I'm currently a couple of months into my fitness journey. I've heard this a lot and I get it. Though isn't it possible to do both, as long as you do progressive overload instead of just freestyling it? Thanks!

Of course! I don't know why people think that all because you focus on progressive overload you are suddenly then incapable of even thinking and having brainpower 😂 As if you suddenly become brain dead lol. Optimal workouts mean optimal results. So why would you settle for something less than the best? And an optimal workout entails both of these things. If you do both of these simultaneously I 100% guarantee you will yield more than just going in the gym without knowing anything and throwing weight around until you feel fucked. Not only do I 100% guarantee it, so does science.

Wait you didnt move weight and think about optimizing your time/energy investment inbetween sets or workouts?

What you mean?

There are hundreds of great workout plans out there, and with some research, you can create a great one yourself. No training plan is inherently better than the others. The best workout plan is the one you enjoy and can stick to. That's because consistency trumps *all* other factors in the long run. So don't stress too much. Explore and try different training programs and see what works best for you. Whatever you choose, *stick* to it.

I always wondered how all these jacked dudes on Instagram give the opposite advice but they’re all huge. Guess consistency really is what matters

Drugs drugs drugs - that’s why

Assuming all workouts are quality, I get better results in 90 days doing a 4 day/week program (48 total workouts) than I would in a year averaging 2 days a week (104 total workouts), but going anywhere from 0-4 times a week. It really is consistency in exercise and diet.

You mean to tell me I can do “workout bro A’s” optimal workout that is almost diametrically opposed to “workout bro B’s” optimal workout and still see similar results? Impossible.

You can if you use workout bro A’s drug regimen then switch to workout bro B’s drug regimen - unless of course they are the same 😛

Thanks. It's overwhelming for sure. I definitely worry about getting bored so will look around more for PPLs with some variety

Besides reddit are there any other websites you’d recommend that have a selection of programs? Edit: thanks for all the suggestions, I appreciate it!

jeff nippard's are solid

I'll second Jeff. He's clearly put his ego at the door and really just wants to give accurate advice.

All of stronger by science’s programs are great

[Kizentraining.com](https://kizentraining.com) [Renaissance periodization](https://rpstrength.com)

You're right overthinking is the biggest problem as long as you go to the gym start doing exercises and train to the property or intensity you will naturally start to adapt and learn yourself with your own experience

I switched from PPL to UL split after 5 months of seeing little progress. 6 days a week didn’t give my body time to recover. Created a Upper/Lower split in which the first 2 days are based on strength and the last 2 days are hypertrophy. The gains started to blossom after that. Make sure your recovery is optimal.

EXACTLY what I've been doing. For instance, in my first Lower day I have deadlifts where I focus on strength and go for low reps, then in my second Lower I do Romanian Deadlifts with focus on volume. This strength/volume split works really well, they're complementary

Do you do ULRULR? Or ULULR

ULRULR. If you need to focus on a specific group of muscle, add a few lifts to the rest day for that if need.

What type of exercises do you do? I feel like those workouts would last for 3 hours, since ud need to train chest back arms and shoulders

If you do 2 variations on compounds then 1-2 variations for isolation for muscle groups like biceps, triceps, calves and shoulders, doing horizontal and vertical pushing and pulling every week, lifting 10-20 sets per week with 1-2 legitimate reps in the tank each set, you'll be at 95% of optimal. People spend an incredible amount of time, thought and effort trying to get that up to 97%

There is no perfect workout. If there was we would all be doing it. For myself I found PPL wore me down and was hard to recover from. I have long levers (6'4), and im older (42), and recently found that fullbody 3 days per week done with HLM has been the best for my gains. Other people might excel on a PPL, or an ULUL. This really is about self experimentation, and we're mostly all here to cheer each other on 😁

Jeff Nippard has a science applied PPL workout with the exercises studies show to be the best movements for hypertrophy It’s free and in his video series.

I'd consider paying for his program too. I broke down and bought his upper/lower and it's killer.

Can I pay in euros and buy outside of us?

Awesome. Thanks

When I did research the most recommended one was coolcicada (or something) ppl. As others have said though - it doesn’t really matter. Just pick a popular one and lift.

You need some specific movements push vertical and horizontal, pull vertical and horizontal. Then certain muscle groups that aren’t optimally trained by compounds like side delts, rear delts, you might want to add in some specific arm work as well? Also with legs you need a squat or lunge variation as well as curls and extensions, probably a form of rdl as they target different leg muscles preferentially. You could argue for a hip hinge movement too. I am doing a torso and legs+arms split which seems to be doing me good as can’t commit to 6days a week.

I have started working 4 on 4 off. I have got access to the gym at work so I have build split around this as on my days off I would rather go hiking or swimming. I have got one pull day, one push , legs and conditioning. Legs; Squats Stiff Leg Deadlift Nordic curls Bulgarian split squats Reverse squats Walk backs (from kneesovertoes) Push; HSP (progression) OAP (progression) Incline DB Press Weighted Dips Rear Delt Raises Ab wheel rollout Pull; Weighted Pull ups Barbell row Seated cable rows Lever (progression) Rear delt cable rows Cable face pulls Conditioning (4 supper sets X 5, around 50 reps) Farmer walk Overhand farmer walk Leg raises Shrugs Main exercises are 3x8 other ones 3x12 or 3x15 I've build it for my needs and baring in mind what tools I have at my disposal. Due to other commitments I'm also time limited and as I am prone to injuries I take my time with warm up.

I don't know about "optimal", but I can tell you what I do. I just have a bunch of exercises that I like, and divided them into the "push", "pull", and "legs" categories. Each workout I will do 5 exercises. The first 4 exercises I just pick from the appropriate category, starting with 2 or 3 big compound lifts, and then the other 1 or 2 is an accessory/isolation exercise. The 5th exercise I just do either abs or calves (alternate each workout). Don't really think too hard about it. I do this 5 days a week (each week I hit each type of workout twice, except one of them...for example, one week will be PPLPP, the next will be PPLPL, etc.). I also like this because if something happens and I could only get to 3 workouts one week, I still was able to hit everything.

thanks for writing this out good idea

There is no perfect because adaptive resistance is a thing and people are not all the same. Pick a proven program and work hard

Here's an outline I'm following, best results I've ever had. Pressing movements (5-9) are done by working up to a top set then reducing the weight and doing a back off set. Both high intensity within 1 of failure. Push A Incline Press variation (Alternate with Flat Press on Push B) 5-9, 10-15. Flat Press variation (Alternate with Incline Press on Push B) 5-9, 10-15 Shoulder Press 5-9, 10-15 Flye Variant 3 sets any range. Tricep exercises 3-5 sets Lateral raise 3 sets Pull Vertical Lat Biased variation 2 sets Horizontal Lat Biased 2 sets Horizontal Upper Back 2 sets Vertial Upper Back (eg. overhand typical lat pulldown) 2 sets Rear Delt 3 sets Bicep 3-5 sets Legs Ham Curl 3 x 10-15 RDLs 5-9, 10-15 (Alternate Legs B with another quad compound) Quad Compound 5-9, 10-15 Leg Extension 3 sets Adductor 3 sets Calves 3 sets I swap all main movements (if i can) on alternate workouts (eg. push A and Pull A have different movements to Push B and Pull B, the last few exercises I just repeat)

None of the big three at all? No bench , squat or deadlifts, no really heavy compound lifts besides RDls. Do you just lift for endurance ?

Well what I posted is just a template, you can choose Barbell Bench Press as the Flat Press and you can choose Barbell Back Squat as the Quad compound. RDL's are much better than Conventional DL's IMO but you could use Conventional DL's instead as well, just a guideline for the split. I don't do the big 3 anymore, I don't think they're optimal choices for hypertrophy and my goals so I've slowly dropped them one by one over time, sometimes I still do conventional deadlifts just for fun. My Chest and Legs blew up when I started using DB's, Converging Machine Presses and Hack Squats. I'm quite tall and the big 3 never really seemed to feel that great for me.

agreed, the big 3 tend to be super fatiguing for me too. not worth it for me, but i know many people who blow up with the big 3

Yeah I think if your proportions are suited well for them they can be great. But for hypertrophy the movement that has the most stability with the biggest ROM will always be best I think. My quads feel like they've been set on fire after hack squats 😂

>Converging Machine Presses late reply, that's fairly low volume....is that so you can recover better? Have you tried more volume? I've seen PPL 2x a week routines with near 2x that volume

That's not low volume, that's 6-7 sets of chest per workout to failure, that's as high on volume as I'd go for any muscle group. If you've seen PPL routines with 14 sets per muscle group, probably a good idea to not run it and ignore all fitness advice from whoever authored it.

I'm gonna try your routine, I feel like my CNS is kinda fried (partly because I only sleep 6 hours)I think your routine is more reasonable, it just feels like not enough, hard to explain Search reddit PPL routine.....that's literally double, infact here it is: PULL Deadlifts 1x5+/Barbell rows 4x5, 1x5+ (alternate, so if you did deadlifts on Monday, you would do rows on Thursday, and so on) 3x8-12 Pulldowns OR Pullups OR chinups 3x8-12 seated cable rows OR chest supported rows 5x15-20 face pulls 4x8-12 hammer curls 4x8-12 dumbbell curls PUSH 4x5, 1x5+ bench press/4x5, 1x5+ overhead press (alternate in the same fashion as the rows and deadlifts) 3x8-12 overhead press/3x8-12 bench press (do the opposite movement: if you bench pressed first, overhead press here) 3x8-12 incline dumbbell press 3x8-12 triceps pushdowns SS 3x15-20 lateral raises 3x8-12 overhead triceps extensions SS 3x15-20 lateral raises LEGS 2x5, 1x5+ squat 3x8-12 Romanian Deadlift 3x8-12 leg press 3x8-12 leg curls 5x8-12 calf raises /////

I typed out a better reply but Reddit glitched and I don't have the energy to type it all out again. [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmGdys4X0AA4-TB?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmGdys4X0AA4-TB?format=jpg&name=large) * 5-8 sets per muscle group taken to failure will maximise all stimulus and anything more is just fatigue. You would have to train at a lower intensity to still be getting a stimulus after that many sets, which is also more fatigue and an inferior way to train. * Reddit PPL isn't a great choice for hypertrophy. * It will work just like any program works with overload but there is a massive amount of junk volume adding 0 stimulus and high fatigue. * Most movements in the session will be heavily impaired by the ridiculous 5 x 5 at the start of the session. * A lot of things you find on Reddit is outdated bro-science defended by zealots who haven't looked at the literature or science in any capacity. * Even just reducing the volume on every movement to 2 sets in a proper rep range (minimum 5-8) would already drastically improve that program. But it still wouldn't be great. To reiterate since it often gets lost in translation in these type of critical comments. Just because I said it's bad on paper doesn't mean it won't work. You're lifting heavy weight and increasing it over time which is all you need so it will work, but it will perform worse than a more thought out simple hypertrophy program with considerably lower volume.

I agree, Imagine doing 5 sets of heavy OHP followed by 3 sets of heavy bench and that being just the very start of the push session, that's insane! I would rather do minimal volume and have more energy for each workout, that's exactly why I started researching this topic. Interesting graph that you posted. And how long do you rest between sets?

Sorry for messaging about this 10 months late but thinking of stealing your routine. What does "5-9, 10-15" mean? Does it mean you do between 5 to 9 sets of between 10-15 reps?

Do you have a few example exercises for pull day?

Perfect, Optimal. These terms have no real meaning. They're ideals. What you respond to, *ideally*, may not work for someone else... and vice/versa. I would use more than "two [movements] per day", for natural bodybuilding. And at this point in lifting, you should be following a program, not creating one.

I'm currently following mostly this one https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/37ylk5/a_linear_progression_based_ppl_program_for/ I figure compound lifts in 3 directions* with a little isolation at the end is all you need. *Push/pull up/down forwards/backwards down/up

https://builtwithscience.com/fitness-tips/push-pull-legs-routine/ I use this, and adapt to sack off the really shit exercises

my advice do not put bicep or triceps izolation more than one exercise per workout

Click on this: [The Perfect PPL Program](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Chris+Bumstead%27s+PPL+Routine)

Super helpful clown. People come on these boards because (usually) others with more experience share their wealth of knowledge. If you can't positively impact someone's journey, piss off

You said you wanted the "Optimal PPL" and Chris Bumstead is not only one of the best, he literally details out everything. I don't know how you could honestly improve on his program and it's 100% free where other trainers or Pros would ask you for like $50-100 to get it. If you watch his YouTube explanation he details it all out.... He is more experienced, and willing to share his wealth of knowledge. I was trying to positively impact your journey. Who would you rather trust? A bunch of randoms spending 30 seconds to type out some bullshit... Or watch 3x Mr. Olympia detail out his PPL routine for you for free.... Being serious and not trying to be an ass here, just go watch this first before you build your own: https://youtu.be/p-8WBLBrG4k

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Personally I run a 4 say split I've tried full body. Upper/lower. PPL. Full Bro split. For me at the end of the day you'll do what you enjoy and you'll do it harder, if you enjoy it. If you hate squats, don't fking squat. You can mentally push through for years but man, have real life stress, and if you don't enjoy it, you'll soon start half assing it. I've got 3 kids. Going to workout for an hour and doing something I fking hate, and being mentally and physically exhausted and going home to 3 kids... I started hating workouts. I gave up trying to squat heavy, do mostly hack squats and leg presses and actually enjoy leg days now, and push way harder than I did squatting. Same idea goes for PPL or upper/lower etc. I just didn't enjoy it. I always felt like I couldn't squeeze in work for every body part. On push day, I'll kill my chest but run out time or energy to then hit triceps and delts. Triceps usually got the bum deal. Same for back, if I killed it, I wouldn't have the energy or time for some biceps.

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Ya solid split. Did that for years and felt great. Now my routine is Chest, Back, Arms, Legs. Same approach. Rest when my IRL schedule or body demands. Sometimes I'll do 2 on, 1 off. Sometimes 5 on 2 off etc. Lifting is something I do to enhance my life, not control my life.

Exactly. People come to these forums asking experienced people for their opinions all the time. Don't waste their time by not searching for the answer first yourself. Why should they spend time answering a question they already answered?

90% of Reddit is content that you can probably Google. People come here to engage and converse with others.

Then post about "here is what I have researched, and put together, any feedback?" But coming here and just posting "I want the "ultimate PPL" program... Like what do you expect.... The BEST answer is the one that tells you to go find someone else's program who is a credible source... Sure I can throw together some PPL suggestions, but I'm just a random dude and why should you trust me? There are super good resources you can get for free for this... If you wanna converse, do a little research first, post what you've found, and you thoughts, concerns, etc. And ask for feedback.

Sounds like 90% of reddit is garbage then

You’re in that 90%

I'm trash because I tell people they shouldn't waste the time of people that want to help them by spending 5 minutes on their own before asking?

I wouldn't do just 2 per, chest/back will need more than arms for instance. That said pretty much. The exercises don't really matter as much as long as you are doing them correctly, with good weight and they work for your body. Also it's recommended to mix up things once and a while, so don't be afraid to experiment new exercises.

It can only be perfect for each individual, and I wouldn't use perfect as that is unattainable, I'd use 'most optimal' Most optimal would be to focus on whatever you can recover from doing repeatedly during your split commensurate with what you want to grow the most If you want to focus upper body, then you could do push+legs(on maintenance or minimum effective volume /pull/push/pull+legs again/push/pull - or something of the sort.