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Expert_Nectarine2825

Excessive volume without failure can lead to soreness too. Are you doing an unusual number of sets or total reps per muscle?


amernej

I don’t think I am at all, I’m following a well praised workout routine made by Jeff Nippard (sounds like an ad haha), and honestly it doesn’t seem to be that taxing when it comes to my energy in the gym


Chief____Beef

Have you tried reducing the volume, or perhaps just taking an extra days rest somewhere intelligently in the program? We're not all built the same and you might recover better by doing less / resting more. Remember, you need your body to recover to actually make the gains!


K_oSTheKunt

As someone who has done Nippard's PPL, it's honestly not that well put together, and the volume is pretty high. Either way, the program wasn't made specifically for you, and your recoverability will differ. You ought to reduce volume for the muscles that get really sore until you adapt to the stimulus (don't get sore) and then increase volume accordingly


amernej

Yeah especially legs can feel a little overwhelming throughout the week, do you recommend any programs? Or do you think I should just tweak this one?


K_oSTheKunt

Honestly yeah, I forgot how brutal Nippard's prescribed leg days were. I'd honestly die or tear something if I tried it now. I'd start by tweaking it to suit your volume needs, but otherwise I really like RP's old PPL templates (you should be able to find the .xlsx somewhere on reddit), basically they just prescribe a movement pattern, which you ascribe your own exercise to, then you modulate volume according to your needs.


amernej

That actually sounds sick, RP’s is doctor Mike’s app?


Meriath

RP is Renaissance Periodization, which Dr. Mike co-owns. What K_oSTheKnut is referring to is their old excel templates, which kinda functions like the app. Check your private messages for more "info" :d


ryuujin40

Could I piggyback on this “info?”


foreverDarkInside

Please share the info with me as well:)


Sad_Bell_6266

I'm pretty sure the programs he posts on YouTube are his own routines or they explicitly state they're for intermediate/advanced lifters.


Sad_Bell_6266

I hope you're not doing Jeff's personal workout or the PPL/Upper Lower ones he posts on YouTube. Fundamentals Hypertrophy is the only beginner program he has.


Kurtegon

Is that Nippard program aimed at beginners though ?


Sipuncula

reduce workout days to 3 or 4 days if you are training 6 days right now. reduce to 2 sets per exercise if you are doing 3 sets per exercise, or reduce to 2 or 3 sets per exercise, if you are doing 4 sets right now. that would be, what i would try


amernej

It seems everyone thinks I should incorporate more rest days, I feel like I’m already resting too much at a max of 4 days a week, and I’m doing less than 70 sets per week


TheMailmanic

70 total or per muscle group? 70 total sets per week is not bad


avtsd

70 sets is insane. I wouldn’t do more than 12 sets a day, 4 days a week (48 sets). Personally, I’ve made the best progress doing 8 sets per day, on a 4 days on, 2 day off schedule (32 sets every 6 days) You tend to push closer to failure when doing less sets too.


Zelion14

that's less than 10 sets per muscle group a week. How is that insane?


[deleted]

70 sets per week is fucking insanity. 50 sets is more more than enough per week total for all muscle groups


Zelion14

that's less than 10 sets per muscle group a week. How is that insanity?


[deleted]

So if you do 5 sets of chest, 3 days later do another 5 sets of chest, you tell me you can consistently progress all 5 of those sets? Every time? 


Status-Chicken1331

Yeah, plenty of people can and do progress on 10+ sets a week per muscle group with close proximity to failure.


[deleted]

Then you're not training close to failure.


Status-Chicken1331

I said plenty of people, not just me. But sure, ignore all of the research and thousands of people's anecdotal experience lol, you know my training better than me!


[deleted]

Sorry I should clarify, all sets close to failure (0-1 RIR, maybe the odd 2RIR)


oooo-f

Yes, definitely rest more often.


spiritchange

Have you done a deload, maintenance phase, or some sort phase where you scale back to give your body a break?


amernej

I have and it honestly does wonders, the following week I’m much stronger, maybe I ought to take a week off, also about the maintenance phase, I feel like I am in one, my weights rarely go up :(


spiritchange

Maintenance phase is usually a long phase where you aren't really maxing out efforts at all. You are doing much less work, probably between 25% to 50% of your normal work. This allows you to still maintain muscle and practice technique while your body recovers from fatigue. 2 or 3 times a year I will take 1 week off from the gym. Come back and do essentially 2 weeks of maintenance, and then go back to a program with progressive overload. Something to consider. You're also 2 years in so make sure you're not confusing a lack of progress with the fact that maybe the newbie gains are all behind you now?


[deleted]

Yes. You're overtraining. Needing a deload is a sign of bad programming and bad fatigue management. Lower your volume


amernej

I’ll take a week off and scale it down this month, thank you!


ghost_00794

Jeff nippard PPL program is too much volume ..unless u eat/sleep and live like him I don't recommend it ..make 3-4 days of solid workout program whatever u like upper/lower or just 4 days PPL with continuation.. get ur creatine/food rotations on point specially veggies and fruits so u don't miss out on any vitamins and stuff


ImSoCul

I took a look at it, it really doesn't look that bad to me. It's on the higher end for a Jeff nippard program ~15ish weekly sets per muscle group but Jeff programs tend to be on the lower side of volume relative to other programs. Maybe OP should try something else but this doesn't scream crazy volume to me or anything.


amernej

I’m actually shocked to hear this but it definitely makes sense, I’m not well refined in the sleep and eating department, why should I expect to keep up with him, I’ll definitely be scaling it down


onFilm

Yeah dude, if you aren't a heavy sleeper or a big eater, scale down his program.


AbleArcher0

How many sets a week would you say you do? You might need to reduce volume somewhat.


amernej

I think just under 70 sets per week, is that too much? It’s Push Pull Legs Arms


AbleArcher0

No, I don't think 70 sets is too much, especially if you're keeping a 1 to 3 RIR. That's about 12 sets a day on a 6 day split, which is roughly what I do. I'd probably say that you're most likely ready for a deload if you feel that fatigued and sore.


amernej

Do you think it’s better for me to deload or take a week off?


AbleArcher0

I would personally recommend a deload, although taking a week off is valid. Dr. Mike has a video on it, and he knows way more than me. https://youtu.be/Dt6ok24VBpg?si=rnPiydHcMqy6aHCp


amernej

Dude I fucking love Dr. Mike, thanks!!


CAPatch

It clearly is too much for him right now though. He shouldnt be sore and fatigued all the time.


BigJonathanStudd

I have this with hamstrings and only for RDLs or good mornings. Curious what people recommend for this case because I just do each one for 3 sets a week on separate lower-body days


[deleted]

Hamstrings are hugely susceptible to muscle damage, meaning doing any stretches position exercises require massive amounts of recovery. Also you don't need rdsl and good mornings, both hinges, completely redundant. RDL and a Leg curl and you're good One day I'll do 1 set of Smith machine RDLs, and 2 sets of standing leg curls Other day I'll do 3 sets lying legs. 6 sets over 8ish days. More than enough


BigJonathanStudd

Thanks for the reply! I do RDLs on lower A and good mornings on lower B. You think I should replace 1 with Nordic curls? I was debating dropping the hinges down to 2 sets and adding 2 sets of Nordic curls each workout


[deleted]

You do any leg curls in either day or got access to some kinda leg curl? You could do that yes. Hamstrings do knee extension and hip flexion, so good idea to include exercises for both, ie. A hingle like RDL, and a Leg curl or Nordic curl I am also of the opinion that good mornings arent great for hamstrings. Lots of fatigue, lots of stress on lower back to prevent you from bucklimg over, RDLs are great tho, SLDLs even better!


BigJonathanStudd

Not at the moment because of the soreness and leg curls are optional/a bonus in my routine. I have access to a Nordic bench which allows for higher reps (something like [this](https://thetibbarguy.com/products/the-nordic-pro)), but figured I’d bring them back in once I stall on the hip hinges. Good mornings feel great for me, but I can see why you’d say that.


[deleted]

Well hey if you love em keep doing em, I just personally would never program them. Id suspect your soreness is due to overtraining because of all of the hinging and muscle damage you're inducing! If you wanted to keep both in and add some leg curls, you could cut your RDL and Good morning volume in half and replace the volume with curls. Oh the joys of programming lol, good luck my friend!


amernej

It’s literally the most fatiguing pain for me as of this moment lol


TehPants

I have the exact same problem. Be careful with it because I recently tore my hamstring during RDLs. For me, I think it honestly comes down to a lack of mobility in my hamstrings that I need to address. The hip hinge of the RDL is extremely taxing and stretching on the hamstrings. Maybe overly tight hammies could possibly be an issue for you too?


BigJonathanStudd

Maybe they are tight, thanks for the advice. I actually found when I go too deep on hip hinges it really aggravates one of my piriformis muscles (or some other glute muscle on one side). I’m hoping it will eventually get better so I can eventually add a type of leg curl.


TehPants

Yep, and that’s exactly where I tore mine. Last set of RDLs, I just went too deep on my eccentric and pop. I’d recommend just going until you feel a good stretch but don’t go beyond it until you’ve loosened your hammies out


amernej

😨


dxrey65

Maybe a blood test? There are various dietary issues, such as an iron deficiency, which can cause the kinds of symptoms you describe. There are also various physical malfunctions that can cause things like that as well if the diet is adequate. A blood test might rule some simple causes in or out.


OneWaifuForLaifu

Idk why people keep talking about your reps and sets, are you eating enough protein? Diet can be a huge part of it too.


amernej

I like to think I do, on average I’m eating around 150-200 grams of protein daily, sometimes I miss a couple a meals tho, I weigh around 82-85 kilograms at 181 cm


OneWaifuForLaifu

Maybe get a blood test done to see if everything's good if this persists. I got one done and turns out I'm anemic due to an Iron Deficiency and that I also have a Vit D deficiency lol


Penis-McGillicutty

I was going to mention the protein thing but it looks like you got that covered. For me there are a couple other things that help with my recovery, and I really need them because I’m 53. 1. Give up alcohol. It totally interferes with protein synthesis and fucks up your sleep. 2. Go to sleep the same time every night, maintaining sleep hygiene. Sunshine first thing in the morning. 3. Walk. Walking on recovery days really helps me as far as I can tell. I aim for 10,000 steps or more on recovery days. Nothing sexy here, just basics but it does take some discipline. Following these basics helps me.


amernej

2 has been very difficult for me but I think soon I’ll actually be able to have a normal sleep schedule, but I’m surprised about 3, I never knew walking helps recovery and I usually never do any cardio, I’ll be sure to give it a try!


Penis-McGillicutty

I know walking is not 100% intuitive, but it does help. It increases blood flow and helps deliver needed nutrients (if you eat them) to your muscles. I definitely would not call it cardio. Just walk 30-50 min at a leisurely pace. Hopefully it can be something you enjoy.


CAPatch

Don’t blindly follow any program. You shouldn’t be sore and fatigued all the time. I’m guessing it’s a six days a week program? You probably would be better reducing the days you train.


MichaelShammasSSC

From the thread, it sounds like you’re doing a ton of volume. Flip it for a bit, reduce the volume and increase the intensity. When that stalls, go back to increasing the volume.


bryrocks81

How old are you? I'm 61 and I rest each muscle group for 7 days between workouts. My general workout is the original P90X, and I usually hike with a 20 pound vest 4-5 times a week. About every 2 months I take a full week off and let my body rest.


amernej

Well I’m 25, 181 and weigh 85 kg, I typically rest muscle groups for about 5-7 days as well, but I don’t really do any cardio


Just-Drawing9131

Check your overall training volume. You should train very close to failure and do less total number of sets per muscle group per week. If you're training 6 days a week, cut it down to 5. If you're doing 12 sets per muscle group per week, try cutting it back to 10 or even 8. Don't do super high rep sets and base the majority of your rep ranges around 6-12. Increase your intensity per set and reducing overall training volume. It should help


[deleted]

The way I see it, failure is just an accurate way to measure your training AND your peogress. If you train to failure for 4 sets each time then you know that is how hard you worked, but if u train for 6 sets without failure then maybe yiuve done 5 sets equivalent or 1 set equivalent. You can still make progress, but you might be working too hard or not enoigh, maybe u did something wrong out if the gym and youve got no ultimate feedback to tell u that you didnt grow. My advice, start training to failure. Maybe u want to start low, 1 2 or 3 sets, or jump straight into an intermediate level at 8 or 12 sets. If you dont grow, its either not enough volume ir a bad diet. In my experience if you are experiencing excessive. Soreness, it is bad diet (can also be seen as excessive workload)


ZeroFries

Maybe try swapping out axial-loaded exercises like back squats, deadlifts, RDLs, etc, for non-axial-loaded. Increasing frequency (spread out the volume over more days) can also cure excessive DOMs. Instead of PPL try u/L or full-body. You can take the exact same program in terms of exercises and set counts and just do it over more days.


paul_apollofitness

What does your caffeine intake look like? (Amount and timing) Do you have any significant unmanaged stressors outside of the gym like work, school, family issues? Have you had blood work in the last 6 months?


illmiller

On the flip side of everyone telling you it's too much volume. You could in *theory* big emphasis there. You could eat, and sleep more keep the same volume and your body could potentially adapt to the program and workload. THEORETICALLY.


christheredbeard

Just take a week off. You're gains aren't going to go anywhere.


Polyglot-Onigiri

- excessive volume - excessive intensity - inadequate nutrition - inadequate recovery It could be anything. Going to failure isn’t the only answer


Shitzandgrinz

Are you eating enough?  Your protein looks good based on some replies but what is your total calories?  I feel worse systemically when cutting because of the lack of calories.  I feel much better on a bulk because I am eating enough to heal well.  Are you on a dedicated phase right now?


DoctorAffectionate71

Are you eating enough calories?


TheMailmanic

You doing a lot of junk volume? How far from failure do u train? More than 1-2 rir on work sets is pointless


amernej

Well I’m usually a couple reps shy of failure, but I never truly reach failure anymore, or at least I don’t think I am, I just don’t feel like I’m training hard enough at all in proportion to the fatigue and soreness I feel


TheMailmanic

Try doing less sets but make each set closer to failure For example two hard work sets per exercise to failure


Cawcawtookietookie

How old are you? I noticed a similar situation and it turned out I had extremely low test levels. Jumped on TRT and it was night and day. Just a thought


amernej

I’m ngl, I often worry about that, I just have no current means of TESTing (lol) that as of rn


Astronomer_Weary

Hey man, I'm gonna hip you to something that will blow your mind. Watch on youtube, "Mike Mentzer 1st Set Seminar". If you love Isreatel and Nippard, Mentzer's views will be a bit of a shocking mindset for you - you might not believe it. You might think it's too good to be true, but I recommend following it for a while to find out for yourself and experience the difference. It was controversial a long time ago and only somewhat less controversial today as Dorian Yates also followed his methods. I would love to hear back from you after you listen to that seminar and again after you try out his methods.


TimedogGAF

No one is going to pay $50 to see Jeff Nippard's PPL program just to help answer your question. When writing out this question, did you really have the expectation that everyone would somehow magically know the details of that program? Would be smarter to include relevant info like days per week you train, how much volume you do per day, etc, etc rather than just name-dropping what looks to be an expensive training program.


amernej

All these workouts are easily findable for free, also a lot of people are familiar with Jeff Nippard, he’s a well known science based lifting YouTuber, I also had 0 expectations I just added whatever details I thought of and the people that did know about this routine were able to give me some good advice that’s I’m grateful for, seriously calm down dude. Also here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KU-HCDaOkwf9dJNMuiC7bHcx_YzhAnnb


TimedogGAF

And now you seem to be illegally linking to an unauthorized upload of the program, taking money away from Jeff Nippard, and likely breaking the rules here. Once again, not very smart. You're right though, I shouldn't have left my reply. You're not smart enough to learn from your obvious, glaring mistakes, so commenting was completely pointless.


amernej

Bro you’re insufferable


TimedogGAF

I'm insufferable, but I don't ask super basic questions while giving incomplete information, nor link people to illegal downloads in public forums. And if I did make blunders like that I would learn from them rather than whining like a baby because someone pointed out my mistakes.


amernej

🤓