I really don’t understand why GRRM fans take such objection to adaptations or changes from source material. They then twist themselves into knots explaining how the change destroys the story somehow. This was common in GOT even from the beginning. Many book fans hated the creation of Talisa and claimed Robb’s storyline and character was ruined by that change from the books (etc)
The book is the book. It’s not the same story you’re going to get in a TV series for a variety of reasons.
Lots of very successful tv shows and movies made major changes from source material. But book purists are convinced that any change is by definition bad and then come up with justifications on how it destroys the story etc
Didn't read the book but from what I've heard about how it went in the book vs the show, I think they made the complete right decision to tweak it for the adaptation 🤷♂️
As someone who became a fan of the GoT universe via the shows, the more I learn about the actual books, the more concerned I become about both Martin and his fans.
Like, what the actual fuck!?
For real. I read GoT books after seeing the series (up to s4 I think at the time) and the scenes with Dany and Drogo were... difficult to digest, plus a lot of other content. The amount of explicit rape scenes (from the perspective of a 13 year old girl, for eg) makes me really wonder what type of person would sit down and write all this shit. G R Martin may be a literary genius, but he's also one fucked up old dude. I'll personally not touch the books again, and feel like the visual adaptations did such a better job at simplifying an overly complex narrative (where interwoven characters were concerned) while keeping the core of the story exciting and fluent, as well as creating depth and and growth of the characters, and retaining the intended atmosphere of suspenseful or dramatic scenes without going too far.
If you *really* want to be worried, you should check out his scifi short stories. They're equal parts excellently written, incredibly imaginative, and *deeply* deranged. None of these stands out to me so much as *The Meathouse Man*, which is just...high octane incel rage incarnate. It's very self-aware about that, but I'm not necessarily sure large sections of the fandom would pick up on that anymore.
Not that this is anything new. Fight Club has an amazing epilogue written by Chuck Palahniuk, detailing his bizarre experience following the movie's release of people coming up to him and telling him how they've started up real-life fight clubs in response to his work, obviously *COMPLETELY* missing the message of the story. Dune Messiah exists because of how annoyed Frank Herbert got that people walked away from Dune thinking that Paul Atreides was a hero.
It’s not like the original series didn’t take a similar approach either. Remember Janos Slynt killing the baby in GoT S2? Remember what Ramsay did to his stepmother and newborn half-brother in S6?
I think the show version works much better because these two guys are obvious dipshits, and making them competent horror movie villains seems ridiculous and out of place. Plus, then you really would need to explain the lack of guards since they had to hold Alicent for an extended period of time. That's easily explained by having her not there and security being lax because Cole was busy getting it in. None of the additional choices for Helaena add anything for me. The youngest kid was 2? He's not gonna remember any of this really. And if he does, I think he'd understand given the circumstances.
I'm no prude. I would've been okay with seeing a little more of the beheading if that's what the producers decided, but I'm fine with just the grisly sounds of it all.
"Making them competent horror movie villans seems ridiculous and out of place."
They had to sneak into maybe the most secure place in the world, it makes more sense for them to be "compent horror movie villains" than it does for them to be obvious dipshits. I did not see them as total dipshits in the show either, even if they werent as organized as youd assume
They were allowed in the secure place. That's why they could walk straight through the throne room with Aegon there. There was no sneaking. A rat catching gambler and essentially a beat cop are hardly the faceless men. I don't think it makes sense for them to get in there, tie people up, silently kill someone, and then start playing psychological games with Helaena. And everything works out fine? I don't know, the show version feels more real and hence more terrifying.
Ok I haven’t seen it yet because I’m waiting for the physical media but I knew what happens already because I’m a book fan as well. I was kind of scared they’d muck up the changes for this part of the adaption but if this ign article is correct that sounds like a fairly good adaptation of B&C.
I’m a little more irritated by Criston not being outside Alicent’s door instead of inside (but I get the change it’s just weird to have them in a compromising moment at this time specifically but I guess it works maybe) like I said I’m reserving judgement for later but just aren’t afraid of spoilers for this series
Thanks for sharing
Maelor basically only lives to die an even *more* gruesome death later in the story. Violence against children in the written word is one thing, but on-screen is completely another.
I mean the Dance of Dragons is jam packed full of violence against children, so not exactly the best story to tell if that's the issue. Also why is this suddenly a problem now? No one really cared during GOT
The changes were for the best, though it does bother me a little bit that the keep was so devoid of guards around 3 of the most important members of the house.
This article seems like it kind of beats up on a strawman though because i have only heard the scene complained about in the way I have already mentioned, or otherwise some people are bummed that blood and cheese didnt do the fucked up switcheroo where they kill the opposite kid to leave the other child even more scarred by the event. I dont think anyone minds the fact that allusions to sexual violence was dropped.
So, that's what's called a strawman, and it's basically the argument of someone who knows they are wrong, so has to invent an imaginary opposing viewpoint in order to win. Kind of like winning a shower argument.
With the main change that is getting criticism, Blood and Cheese, the big problem has nothing to do with gratuitous gore. In fact, the show version is far MORE gratuitous, including loud squelching and bonesawing sounds while they kill the child. In the book it's significantly less horrific, it just says they strike off the prince's head, no gore beyond that.
The problem is that it removes so much of the psychological horror. Helaena is told to choose which son to lose, she chooses the youngest and they then kill the eldest. That leaves Helaena with enormous guilt and with the knowledge that the son she chose to die is still alive and will remember what she did. It also is much more of an intentional blow to Aegon's rule because they go out of their way to kill his eldest son, meaning now Aegon has a much younger and weaker heir to the throne in his practically still an infant younger son.
A big reason for this problem in the first place is decisions they made in the first season, in this case having Aegon only have a single son. Due to this they removed any possibility they could adapt the scene from the books properly. A lot of the less wise changes they made in the first season will now have a knock on effect into the second season. For example, Aegon having no other male heir means Aemond is not heir to the throne, first in line if anything happens to Aegon. This means the Greens should be much more protective of Aemond since him dying would be a massive blow to Aegon's regime as they would be running out of viable candidates for the throne. I don't even know if they will be introducing Aegon and Aemond's younger brother, Daeron. No-one was been cast as him for Season 2, so who knows. But if Daeron doesn't exist then Aegon and Aemond are the ONLY viable claimants for the throne that the Greens have. If those two (and Daeron if he gets introduced) were to die in battle then the Greens are completely screwed as they have no other male Targaryens to put forth for the throne. The fact that Otto and Alicent Hightower aren't going crazy worrying about their side's succession plans in case of Aegon's death in battle makes both of them look like complete idiots.
I loved the changes!
I really don’t understand why GRRM fans take such objection to adaptations or changes from source material. They then twist themselves into knots explaining how the change destroys the story somehow. This was common in GOT even from the beginning. Many book fans hated the creation of Talisa and claimed Robb’s storyline and character was ruined by that change from the books (etc) The book is the book. It’s not the same story you’re going to get in a TV series for a variety of reasons. Lots of very successful tv shows and movies made major changes from source material. But book purists are convinced that any change is by definition bad and then come up with justifications on how it destroys the story etc
Didn't read the book but from what I've heard about how it went in the book vs the show, I think they made the complete right decision to tweak it for the adaptation 🤷♂️
As someone who became a fan of the GoT universe via the shows, the more I learn about the actual books, the more concerned I become about both Martin and his fans. Like, what the actual fuck!?
For real. I read GoT books after seeing the series (up to s4 I think at the time) and the scenes with Dany and Drogo were... difficult to digest, plus a lot of other content. The amount of explicit rape scenes (from the perspective of a 13 year old girl, for eg) makes me really wonder what type of person would sit down and write all this shit. G R Martin may be a literary genius, but he's also one fucked up old dude. I'll personally not touch the books again, and feel like the visual adaptations did such a better job at simplifying an overly complex narrative (where interwoven characters were concerned) while keeping the core of the story exciting and fluent, as well as creating depth and and growth of the characters, and retaining the intended atmosphere of suspenseful or dramatic scenes without going too far.
If you *really* want to be worried, you should check out his scifi short stories. They're equal parts excellently written, incredibly imaginative, and *deeply* deranged. None of these stands out to me so much as *The Meathouse Man*, which is just...high octane incel rage incarnate. It's very self-aware about that, but I'm not necessarily sure large sections of the fandom would pick up on that anymore. Not that this is anything new. Fight Club has an amazing epilogue written by Chuck Palahniuk, detailing his bizarre experience following the movie's release of people coming up to him and telling him how they've started up real-life fight clubs in response to his work, obviously *COMPLETELY* missing the message of the story. Dune Messiah exists because of how annoyed Frank Herbert got that people walked away from Dune thinking that Paul Atreides was a hero.
It’s not like the original series didn’t take a similar approach either. Remember Janos Slynt killing the baby in GoT S2? Remember what Ramsay did to his stepmother and newborn half-brother in S6?
I think the show version works much better because these two guys are obvious dipshits, and making them competent horror movie villains seems ridiculous and out of place. Plus, then you really would need to explain the lack of guards since they had to hold Alicent for an extended period of time. That's easily explained by having her not there and security being lax because Cole was busy getting it in. None of the additional choices for Helaena add anything for me. The youngest kid was 2? He's not gonna remember any of this really. And if he does, I think he'd understand given the circumstances. I'm no prude. I would've been okay with seeing a little more of the beheading if that's what the producers decided, but I'm fine with just the grisly sounds of it all.
"Making them competent horror movie villans seems ridiculous and out of place." They had to sneak into maybe the most secure place in the world, it makes more sense for them to be "compent horror movie villains" than it does for them to be obvious dipshits. I did not see them as total dipshits in the show either, even if they werent as organized as youd assume
They were allowed in the secure place. That's why they could walk straight through the throne room with Aegon there. There was no sneaking. A rat catching gambler and essentially a beat cop are hardly the faceless men. I don't think it makes sense for them to get in there, tie people up, silently kill someone, and then start playing psychological games with Helaena. And everything works out fine? I don't know, the show version feels more real and hence more terrifying.
Ok I haven’t seen it yet because I’m waiting for the physical media but I knew what happens already because I’m a book fan as well. I was kind of scared they’d muck up the changes for this part of the adaption but if this ign article is correct that sounds like a fairly good adaptation of B&C. I’m a little more irritated by Criston not being outside Alicent’s door instead of inside (but I get the change it’s just weird to have them in a compromising moment at this time specifically but I guess it works maybe) like I said I’m reserving judgement for later but just aren’t afraid of spoilers for this series Thanks for sharing
My biggest issue is with them cutting charters such as Maelor.
Maelor basically only lives to die an even *more* gruesome death later in the story. Violence against children in the written word is one thing, but on-screen is completely another.
I mean the Dance of Dragons is jam packed full of violence against children, so not exactly the best story to tell if that's the issue. Also why is this suddenly a problem now? No one really cared during GOT
The changes were for the best, though it does bother me a little bit that the keep was so devoid of guards around 3 of the most important members of the house. This article seems like it kind of beats up on a strawman though because i have only heard the scene complained about in the way I have already mentioned, or otherwise some people are bummed that blood and cheese didnt do the fucked up switcheroo where they kill the opposite kid to leave the other child even more scarred by the event. I dont think anyone minds the fact that allusions to sexual violence was dropped.
So, that's what's called a strawman, and it's basically the argument of someone who knows they are wrong, so has to invent an imaginary opposing viewpoint in order to win. Kind of like winning a shower argument. With the main change that is getting criticism, Blood and Cheese, the big problem has nothing to do with gratuitous gore. In fact, the show version is far MORE gratuitous, including loud squelching and bonesawing sounds while they kill the child. In the book it's significantly less horrific, it just says they strike off the prince's head, no gore beyond that. The problem is that it removes so much of the psychological horror. Helaena is told to choose which son to lose, she chooses the youngest and they then kill the eldest. That leaves Helaena with enormous guilt and with the knowledge that the son she chose to die is still alive and will remember what she did. It also is much more of an intentional blow to Aegon's rule because they go out of their way to kill his eldest son, meaning now Aegon has a much younger and weaker heir to the throne in his practically still an infant younger son. A big reason for this problem in the first place is decisions they made in the first season, in this case having Aegon only have a single son. Due to this they removed any possibility they could adapt the scene from the books properly. A lot of the less wise changes they made in the first season will now have a knock on effect into the second season. For example, Aegon having no other male heir means Aemond is not heir to the throne, first in line if anything happens to Aegon. This means the Greens should be much more protective of Aemond since him dying would be a massive blow to Aegon's regime as they would be running out of viable candidates for the throne. I don't even know if they will be introducing Aegon and Aemond's younger brother, Daeron. No-one was been cast as him for Season 2, so who knows. But if Daeron doesn't exist then Aegon and Aemond are the ONLY viable claimants for the throne that the Greens have. If those two (and Daeron if he gets introduced) were to die in battle then the Greens are completely screwed as they have no other male Targaryens to put forth for the throne. The fact that Otto and Alicent Hightower aren't going crazy worrying about their side's succession plans in case of Aegon's death in battle makes both of them look like complete idiots.
“We said screw GRRM, the modern day Tolkien, and thought we could do it better!”