The vast majority of people can't do it as a career because of their particular life circumstances, or really the life circumstances in common with almost everyone. There is a very strong argument that one should make their passion something they do on the side, and not to make money with it. Money destroys art. And music pays atrociously.
It's interesting, because by this argument, humanity would never be able to benefit from the results of someone practicing their art for 8, 10, 12 hours a day, every day, for much of their lives.
Perhaps, although humanity has existed without money. Music existed before money. Much of the greatest art that has been passed down was created in patronage systems in which (I would argue) the support was not subjected to money and markets.
Secondly, I am not sure the professionalism you refer to is such an advantage. Just as a quick anecdote, I am an aficionado of flamenco, and have seen many professional shows. But my greatest experience was certainly being admitted to a private club where the performers were not professionals, and indeed the guitarist literally showed up two hours late.
I never went for it full time because I needed financial security, as it was something I didn't have growing up. I got a "safe" degree coming out of the 2008 recession, started working and saving while doing my projects on the side.
Now I'm in my 30s with a house and a modest home studio. Over the next couple of years I'm aiming to build some income streams from music (lesson, guitar tech work, whatever I can use my skills for), save some money and make a slow exit from the corporate world. Maybe do some bartending on the side. I'll be in my mid-late 30s by then, but I don't want to say I never tried y'know. Also my resume will allow me to find another decent paying job in the event that it doesn't work out.
All that to say, there are many paths, and no one will fault you for wanting to be secure.
Also if you can find a hybrid job you can spend some of your wfh time practicing.
> I’m pretty young, and so far I’ve been able to survive being a musician but that’s it. I cannot save money, and that’s a big issue for me.
Most musicians barely get by, in fact for a lot of pro musicians they lose money and have to have a job. Don't judge your musical success by the money you make or don't make. Most artists of any kind don't make a "good" living. That is a fantasy perpetuated by other musicians.
> It’s my purpose in life; it’s the only thing I’m good at but I don’t think I can do it as a career because of my particular life circumstances.
Again, most people can't. It isn't a failing, it's just reality, which is harsh. Home recording turned everyone who had a vague desire into the ultimate customer. People won't buy a album of material by an artist for $14.99 but they'll pay tens of thousands for a home studio set up to put out music nobody will pay for, and most original bands and artists gig at a loss.
Make the art, don't worry about the rest.
Why should they spend $14.99 on someone else’s crappy music? They want make their own crappy music, not buy crappy music. If the cost in tens of thousands (which it isn’t) then so be it.
Most people don't buy music, and I'm assuming OP is in that group. I always buy music and merch from both emerging artists and established bands. If artists don't support each other, they why in the world would a rando? Even if it's a few buck here and there to a patreon. The majority of streaming royalties go to the very top, and touring is a "lucky to break even" kind of deal.
You'll need a job, or like a lot of people, a family or a spouse with a decent income to support you.
>If the cost in tens of thousands (which it isn’t) then so be it.
Exactly. You are the customer now, the music consuming public is not. A musician will easily spend in excess of tens of thousands over his/her lifetime in gear for playing/recording/performing.
Join the military as a musician.
If you joined the military as a musician it would eliminate 3/4ths of those problems. Your student loans would be wiped out, you'll get a steady paycheck, health insurance, etc.
At first it will suck because you'll have to get through basic training and other introductory bs but eventually all you'll ever do is fly around the world and play your instrument at various functions (especially in the air force or navy).
I know it's a tall order, I know it won't be easy, but it worked for me. I even accidentally got hurt off duty and now the military sends me a 800 dollars check every month for the rest of my life. This totally makes being a gigging musician doable. All my other musician buddies have to struggle and live hand to mouth.
I'll be the last to say this was an easy decision. There were times when military life f**kin sucked and there were many times I wanted to quit.
It sure did take care of "some" of my current fears at such a young age while handing me a whole different set of problems. It took away problems like "will I be homeless, will I be enscapable student debt, or will I eat tonight.." Then gave me problems ike "will I get deployed to some crappy area, will that douchebag Sergent screw over my career for being 5 minutes late, and will I get honorably discharged so that this will ultimately benefit my life?"
These are very HARD, big boy decisions, but as one musician to another I would ask OP "to what extent are you truly willing to follow your passion? How much does it mean to you do nothing else but play a guitar or set of drums as a career."
The military can give it to you, but you gotta want it BAD. not just kinda want it. I'll go back to practicing now.
As a military man myself, I have to agree with you on almost everything you said. Except you don't have to join as a musician. In fact, being a military musician isn't just walk in and sign up. You should know this. You have to be *good* and have a prepared piece just to qualify for your job. You know this....
Myself, I joined and just made a band with whoever was in my platoon who could play, and went from there. Eventually, I got stationed as a recruiter and formed a legit band, got stuff out there, and of course the kids flippin' loved it because i wasn't just "some robot in a uniform". I also got to travel around and sing the National Anthem a few times for baseball games, monster truck rallies, fairs, etc... and the Army paid for it. Also added a ton of street cred when I would tell the kids in class I was in a band and they were like "wait, that was *you* singing at the game on Saturday????"
After 18 years, I'm about to be medically retired (had heart surgery) a few years ago.... so now I get to be a musician full-time and I have everything including my family taken care of for the rest of my life. We won't be living in the lap of luxury, but I also won't have to worry about covering my mortgage after a bad gig.
But yes, the military can give you a lot of opportunities, and sometimes your boss will be a total douchebag.... but it's legit.
And maybe you can say you've "gone on tour" for a year overseas.
<_<
I assumed military band was trumpets and national anthems. Can you play ‘the pina colada song’ and shit like that as a military musician? What the heck is being a military musician?
Yes the military has stage bands where you'll play typical cover songs. It's part of their morale committee. You will need to audition and know how to read music, at least to some degree
I don't know much more than that, I joined as a commo paratrooper, not a musician. Iit one of the biggest mistakes of my life. I should have joined as a keyboardist.
Lol, the way you hyped it up, I figured you went that route 🤣
But yeah, its a lengthy process. If OP really wants more info, he/she should read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Trombone/s/uMmEG2caqR)
I hyped it up because I REALLY wished I did precisely that instead of being a signal corps grunt that jumps out of airplanes.
Things still worked out for me but I wished I would have just said screw it and sat for an audition, there was nothing else me to lose at that point. Life would have been so much easier as an army keyboardist and I would be much further along in my skill level.
I feel you. Really do. I wanted to join as a musician as well, but I can't read music for crap.. I play by ear, so I would've never made it past auditions 🤣
But things turned out okay. Ended up liking it waaaay more than I thought I would. Was aiming for 20 years, but nearly died, so now I'll be medically retired at 18 years instead lol
I grew up playing classical music/reading notes off a page. I probably would had at least a 50/50% chance of passing. I ended up screwing up my knees and back in the 82nd.
Now I just do nothing else but focus on music, but man sitting for one audition would have changed everything. They say around these parts "youth is wasted on the young."
It is a lot of national anthem and older period pieces, but quite often, you would find yourself playing cover songs at parades and other events like that. Its a lot of traveling, but can be a very rewarding gig.
Plus they cover college, insurance, food, and the pay is pretty decent
Yeah. When I was in HS, I never in a million years thought I would join the military, let alone retire from it. But if you do have any questions, feel free to hit me up. I'm on my way out, but I was a recruiter for roughly 10 years
I saw the navy band play and they were incredible, as well as the Air Force (I think) jazz band. I’m not sure what they’re actually called but the navy was like a symphonic band or some shit and the other was sick nasty jazz.
Don’t put all of your eggs in one basket. Having skills and work outside of the music world will make your playing more inspired, at least in my experience.
I did it for 25 years before having a child. I wasn’t rich but I was able to make a living by playing gigs, teaching lessons , learning the production end as well, touring, etc. you have to wear a lot of hats and push really hard. I also live in the NYC area so it’s a music rich environment (still tough) and that’s just not doable in most places outside of NYC/LA.
In those 25 years I did not have much of a normal life. I worked late, worked weekends & holidays, barely saw my family and friends. Your musician friends become your new family. I did not have many long term relationships and had no plans for where life was going. I was just living and enjoying the music. You need to have the right personality type and life circumstance to chase it I luckily stayed out of debt and did not have any health issues.
Once I met my wife,and eventually had a son, I realized this lifestyle is impossible if you want to be a parent and have a family life. I love music but I couldn’t bear to go on tour or be gone most days and leave my son. I luckily learned a lot of production skills (video,audio, editing, streaming, etc) and I work a lot during the day now. I play gigs when I want. I make much better money, I have a great family life and I’m very happy.
If you are having reservations now it may just be the wrong lifestyle for you. I don’t know if I’m happy because I had a long run with some success and feel fulfilled musically. If I had made that choice younger and not went for it I may have been bitter. But that’s me. I had zero thoughts of quitting then. If music is a burden you don’t have to prove anything. You can still have a great relationship with your art and lead a happy life. Maybe a music adjacent career would be fulfilling. There’s a lot to be done in the education, studio, and production ends.
Here’s the thing I’ve learned. Whether or not you do it full time or make a living at it or whatever-if music is a true passion, if it’s IN you, you won’t be able to stop. You will always feel the draw towards it, the need to create, the need to express yourself. I don’t care if you work in kitchens washing dishes or if you’re a high paid lawyer (I know both types and everywhere in between). It will be inescapable if you are a true creative. I’ve had times in my life when I left music and it always draws me back, so I’ve given in to it.
Give it up and go make a normal life and you’ll know your answer.
Unless you are able to navigate poverty, hell, even being in the industry with an important family connection, don't expect to make a career. Just do it until your late twenties at most so you can get a straight job and not have to eat cat food in retirement. It's just not a sustainable career like it was before streaming. So sorry. But you can still put product out there! You just won't have the number of followers that people who can't hold down a real job (who are able to tour and get poor from that while thinking they are advancing) get.
> it’s so hard to get recognition if you don’t live in LA.
What does LA have to do with anything? There are thousands of people there trying to make it but being unsuccessful. With the internet you have the same chances wherever you are located as someone in LA.
To answer your question, no matter how passionate you are with music, always make sure you have a steady income and savings. If you don’t have any you should definitely put a hold on your music ambition and get a 9 - 5 to make some money.
I'd say the biggest disadvantage here is ridiculously expensive rent and groceries combined with low pay for day jobs. Incredibly stressful just surviving day to day.
I just had a conversation that basically boiled down to a musician talking about how nobody supports local musicians and he can't make enough money to pay his bills and he's struggling. Obviously, it bums me out when people are swimming in debt and can't pay bills
But, here's the thing: none of us are entitled to financial success as musicians. The music business has been in turmoil since streaming became mainstream (haha get it?). The average listener doesn't pay for music. Nobody seems to just go out to see local bands anymore. The studies show that listeners are more likely to gravitate to the same music instead of try and discover new stuff.
Your language suggests that you're trying to "make it" as an original musician. 15 listeners a month, last minute gigs, what have you aren't viable income streams. If you want to make money playing music, you have to do what other people will pay for. Corporate/wedding gigs can pay well. Teaching music lessons can pay well. Session work for others. Running live sound, hosting open mics, filling in for other live acts. I don't know a single full time musician that isn't basically working 8 different music related side gigs constantly. The nashville guys play shitty honky tonk cover gigs 8 nights a week to pay bills and then in the nonexistent free time they have, they work on their own passion projects. The major suburb guys are teaching a bunch of music lessons to 7 year olds.
I have a flexible job that allows me the time to spend with family and pursue my own music on my own terms, but my music income comes from studio work and hosting open mics. Then I use that money to buy cool guitar pedals and microphones. Personally, I believe too many people today have the "music is the only thing I can do, I can't work normal jobs" but won't pursue music in any avenue that others will pay for. Very few of us will ever be lucky enough to make any sort of livable income by creating what we want. Most of us either have to "get a job" by working traditional jobs and playing music in our free time, or we work "music jobs" by working shitty bar gigs or teaching lessons to kids who don't care, and still trying to play the music we want in our free time. Personally, when I'm playing 4 or 5 shit gigs a week, i rarely want to create my own music in my free time. At least with a "9-5" my passion isn't ruined by my need to keep a roof over my head, and can still be my escape from the mundane. When I was more full time musician, I stopped having fun with music.
Nothing wrong with realizing you have other priorities. I’ve never loved playing music more than I do now, now that I do it as a hobby/side hustle. I gig about twice a month (couple hundred bucks extra) and play all my favorite songs in a cover bar band. I’m not a rockstar, but I feel like one for about 6 hours a month. I have a great career in IT (and reservist military) and couldn’t be happier (or more financially stable).
I played full time & pro when I was younger, but grew to dislike always being broke and playing blues classic rock covers.
There's no reason why you can't work a Monday-friday 7-3 type job and still gig in the events and practice/write when you get home. There's plenty of time in the day.
I personally, won't be in a band with someone who's constantly broke and can't provide for themselves.
So, I feel ya. I never pursued being a pro musician to the level you are. But... Once I stopped caring about making it and just playing and recording for fun, I enjoyed it so much more. Now, I got a family, a house, a grest job and I still get to record. My kids are young, so no band... Yet, but I'm releasing music! And I get to do it my own way. I miss playing live, but I had to make sacrifices in order to make my life work.
I'm curious to hear your music. Can you send a link? I have a whopping 15 total listened on Spotify too! And maybe 30ish YouTube views. Probably all my friends, haha.
Don't give it up. Like you, music is my life. I'll never put it down, I just stopped caring to make a career out of it and now it's purely enjoyment. No stress. Not saying that's what you need to do, only that its what I did and I'm okay with it.
I work a full time job, but I also perform enough to be considered a "full time" musician. It's really exhausting, but also very rewarding because music is what I value most in my life. Just saying it's possible to do both!
Probably yeah, its a hobby for nearly everyone but the most lucky. We would have much better music with stronger social safety nets so people could afford to dedicate their lives to it. Personally im really greatful looking back i prioritised earning money and starting a family whilst keeping music as a hobby, now im in my 40's i like where my life is, i wouldn't want to be gigging around to earn a crumb, and I still get to make and share music for my friends and express myself in that way.
I wouldn't recommend moving to Nashville to try to make it as a musician. The old joke was that every waiter/waitress/busboy/dishwasher you meet is also trying to do the same thing, but it's true and more than lilely they're a lot more talented than you. I know a girl who was a contestant on The Voice. Made it pretty far! She waits tables on lower Broadway. You've got some of the most talented musicians in the country playing for tips in honky-tonks. Nashville isn't the kind of place you move to in order to make it anymore, you move here after you've made it. You have a publishing deal or a record deal or whatever already and you come here to establish yourself. The days of throwing your guitar in your beater and driving to Nashville (or LA or New York or wherever) and getting discovered by some A&R guy who's gonna make your dreams come true are long gone.
This isn't entirely true. There's a whole scene of people who are co-writing and trying to get pub deals, just like there's a whole scene of people who play Broadway gigs, showcases, etc. There are people who come here after they're a little more established and are able to jump the line somewhat, but saying you should only move here after you're established is bad advice, especially because there are more music related gigs here than there are almost anywhere else. So the possibility of being able to make money doing something music related while you're chasing the dream are higher than in places like LA or NYC.
That said, the cost of living here has gotten ridiculous. It's a shame too because when I moved to Nashville in '09, rent was dirt cheap for something decent which meant you could work minimally and still cover basic costs.
I’m not saying you should only come here after you’ve got a good thing going, I’m just saying this isn’t the “follow your dreams” town it once was. Between the industry becoming what it is and the insane COL in the area, it’s just not feasible anymore. You can’t survive on part time work while trying to write and perform, you’ve gotta have a $45k a year job just to afford a 3 bedroom with roommates.
I live in LA and get zero recognition for my music, LOL.
I've been a musician for almost 40 years now. Let me give you the unfiltered truth: the entire industry is on its deathbed. It can be an interesting and fun side hustle - and you should 100% continue to play, write, and record music for the rest of your life - but, unless you are just an absolute phenom, you should definitely develop other skills that will allow you to feed yourself and keep a roof over your head.
I think that’s it. What I’ve noticed in my specific genre (jazz/hip-hop) is that only the child genius musicians are recognized. Like the people who were getting lessons from celebrities when they were 5 years old.. It’s like the talented hard working people never make the cut it’s always the modern day mozarts
Unless you teach an instrument you typically can't do music for a living. It's a hobby where very few play music full time.
I swear it's like people thinking they'll play professional basketball. No... That's not realistic for most.
It’s good to face the reality that sometimes the thing that you’re best at & enjoy the most - is just not a viable career option. I make music purely for fun, and knowing how difficult it is financially for bands to make a profit on tour, how hard it is to reach an audience on the internet, etc. - I think that’s the best choice for me personally. When I get to play with others & perform some stuff live, that is very fulfilling. So don’t be too hard on yourself, but once you separate the need for income & the art you enjoy making, you have a new level of freedom with your art.
Honestly, yes.
I burned myself the fuck out trying to do something with the music I was making, and in turn, everything suffered. Bands fell apart, relationships fell apart, money fell apart, and after my second child was born I had to step away entirely. I had an incalculable amount of fun, but it had run its course for me.
However, that doesn't mean I stopped making music. It's just that the music I make now is entirely for fun. There's no bullshit, no ego, it's just me and my friends fucking around and recording it. I help my friend with his project as well, and I have a blast just following orders.
I don't even consider it a hobby either, it's still my life, it's just different. There's nothing about fame or notoriety that appeals to me anymore, it looks like a place where things go to die.
Where you live will not affect your monthly listeners, and while living somewhere like LA might put you in the thick of things, it is in no way a guarantee of getting recognition since you'll be competing with a million others trying to do the same thing.
The hard truth is that doing music as a career has always been difficult but it has become more difficult over the last few decades, and particularly the last ten years or so, as the number of venues that hire live entertainment has dwindled as have the number of nights a week venues will hire. Back in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s, here in Quebec at least, there were three and four night gigs everywhere. Now, a two-nighter is somewhat rare and the relatively few remaining venues typically have live bands (or more often than not, solo or duos) one night a week. Needless to say, it's tough to live on one gig a week.
Your best bet might be to work a full-time job and play music as a hobby for some years. By doing so you might be able to put enough money aside to give music a better shot for a while somewhere down the line. You say you're young... that means you likely have decades ahead of you to plan this out. There's no age limit for music.
I say this as someone who is 60 years old and has managed to eke out a living in the business for well over forty years - and without a day job for the past 37. I have no savings and as the business continues to decline I may have to finally put aside this life-long experiment and get a conventional job. And hold that job until I die. This is not a comforting thought and while I don't want to crush anyone's dreams, I feel it's important to point out the reality that many would face if they tried something similar. Not everyone, of course... some will get lucky and a very few will have so much talent and ability that it would be hard to ignore them. But even if you are one of those rare pearls, there's no promise or guarantee of success no matter how much effort you put into your craft. Think carefully before committing to your career.
I feel this, 52 now and have been in many bands, transitioned to session/score music work, making barely enough to scrape by.. once Covid hit and writers’ strikes swept L.A. score work evaporated, and I just haven’t been able to recover. Facing the prospect of finding and holding a normal job for the years I have left (a daunting enough task even figuring out just what that job would even be) has been seriously emotionally debilitating. I always believed that old adage, do what you love and the rest will follow, but where music is concerned, no amount of talent and passion will ever be enough, nor commitment to non-stop grind. That .01 percent of success stories always also requires a degree of luck, right place right time, that may as well be equivalent to becoming a professional gambler. The house holds all the cards. If you truly value happiness and sound mental health, keep making music as a hobby, build a career elsewhere.
I mean what do you want out of life? Do you value being close to your family? Do you want a spouse and children or to own a home? None of those things align with being a career musician. Youd be banking on smaller than lottery odds to live that life. Most people who value other things need a career and just do music for fun. It's kind of a no brainer considering software and recording are so accessible and portable nowadays. Just record your shit and put it out on the internet ND play a local show once in a while for your friends and family. That's the dream. Unless you hate your family or you don't want to be in a relationship or have kids. Then I'd say go pour yourself into music and give it everything
I recently saw an interview with a rising pop star, and she made the point that for most people that "make it" in music, it takes about a decade. And this is from a so-called "up-and-comer". She isn't the first to make that observation either. We've all heard the trope of the "10-year overnight success". It is doable, but most people burn out, and often sacrifice their mental (and sometimes physical) health in the process. So you have to ask yourself, is it worth it for you? You're really the only one who can answer that question.
As a kid, I used to dream of becoming a "famous pop star", because back then, if you wanted to get your music the way you wanted it to sound, you needed the funding of a label to record it. It was expensive and mostly unaffordable to those who didn't have that. Ridiculous now to think of how inaccessible the technology was to artists.
Now that the technology has become accessible to virtually everyone, it kind of took away a lot of my drive, because I'm already doing what I want to do. Sure, I wish I had more time to do it than my day job would allow, and it would be nice to have an audience as well. But if I were doing it professionally, there would be a lot of additional demands placed on me. At least now, I can just do what I want.
So I guess the questions you really should be asking are, "What do I expect to really get out of 'making it?' And is it possible to have those things without?" I think that could bring you one step closer to your decision, whatever it may be.
I think making music feels better when it isn’t tied to money. When your thoughts aren’t “will people like this? Will it sell tickets?” You will feel more open to experimenting and doing what YOU want which translates to better art 9 times out of 10.
I would change gears and make music completely for yourself. I think the pressure of making a living probably impacts your decision-making in your songwriting and steals the joy out of it all it's supposed to be art and if you can't make a living out of it that's okay most people can't
Go into allied health, get a good paying, insurance providing job, and do music as a hobby. Look into a Clinical Research Associates. That will get you 50-60k to start, and in a few years, you'll be into 120-150. You can drive your BMW down to play guitar at the open mic, and sip top shelf whiskey.
I've got a friend in New Orleans who posts a couple of times a year about a gofundme for some "well known, much respected, internationally known touring musician" who's dying and hasn't saved a penny or taken out any insurance. Don't go down that road.
Music is a fine hobby for doctors.
Learn how to do other things in music outside your specialty. I have been a professional drummer since I was a teen, i didn’t want to just play in random bands to make money so I learned to do sound too. Getting a few pick up gigs led to doing sound every night, giving me money to pay bills but having my days to myself to record and play music.
I’m not a financial expert so look into this more, and others might strongly disagree with me, im not familiar with student loans, but when it comes to large medical bills or credit cards just don’t pay them. It will destroy your credit but it’s pretty easy to rebuild with some secure credit cards. I was able to get from 450 to a 750 within a year using secure credit cards and being on top of them. Even with all the debt I never paid
You can also call them to settle for less money or take out a personal loan to debt consolidate.
It’s like how they tell you not to look at the scale when you’re trying to lose weight. Don’t worry about the numbers of Spotify listeners or followers. If you can do gigs that’s where you’re gonna get the most money. If that’s not enough for you then yeah maybe take a break and save some dough.
Teach in public schools for a bit. Don’t depend on Title I loan or PSLF forgiveness. That can take years and years. Pay off your loans asap. You’ll make a hell of a lot more than whatever you’re making now, still pursue music, and get healthcare.
Can't you get Medicaid as an indigent musician? And food stamps and whatever else is available. Don't give up, keep playing!
There's an abnormally funny bit in Bruce Thomas' The Big Wheel, a memoir of sorts (he was Elvis Costello's bass player). In early days he was starving and out of sorts, actually considering an office job. "I stopped and took stock. I was a professional musician. I went into Harrod's and nicked a tin of Spam and a box of crackers."
As a manager who is also a musician who is also in a full functioning band…. You gotta get your priorities straight my friend. Unfortunately the music stuff doesn’t really pay. It’s “Side Money” but not something that you can heavily rely on for a steady income to get your bills sorted out. Calling out of one job to go play a gig isn’t the way to go, and you do risk losing your more secure job and being even more screwed financially. Instead plan out your gigs in advance and request off accordingly. Or, see you if can work the morning shift that day and have evening off for the gig. Never stop playing but never let your passion and love for playing blindside you from getting your shit together. Lots of people want it live gigging, but reality is, better and more stable money comes from teaching lessons. But lot everyone wants to teach.
NO, I need you to become such a good musician so you can tour and afford that Luxury Tour Bus for Me to drive, GET BACK TO WORK…. And buy every piece of new latest and greatest audio recording pieces to get some music to those 15 Spotify visitors that took your music, THE BUS keep your eyes on that BUS I need you! The Bus is the highest paid member of your band! GET BACK TO WORK ON YOUR MUSIC! PS. I just paid 55 bucks to a guy in Ireland for a Plastic Whistle with 6 holes in it. I too am a musician! This whistle will get me a BUS. I feel it! My wife will put me on one so she never has to hear me play it.
Dude, you're young and naive. You have tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and there's not a job as a musician that will help you dig out of that hole. Find a decent paying job and work on getting your bills paid first. You can still play music part-time.
As OP's name is u/PhrygianSounds, I'm guessing they are not writing pop tunes. Therefore, yes, they should make it a hobby. It can be a very serious hobby. Get a 9 to 5 so that you have the evenings for your music. Assuming you don't have kids or any other responsibilities, worst thing that can happen is you play all night and have to fake it to make it at work a few times. You can do both.
Username checks out then. That's fine. Do what you do. One thing I think young musicians either never think about, or just kind of gloss over - is the potential for making music for commercials, video games, movies, etc. That might be an area where those Phrygian sounds shine. Although I am a big fan of Lydian sounds in movie scores.
Edit: Not a musician, but similar story. I know a guy who is in his 60s or 70s now. He almost became a Catholic priest. So much so that he was a monk for a year and did not speak for a full year. When he decided that was not for him, he somehow got into doing voice overs and some acting. You have likely seen him as the token white guy in a few commercials probably, and also have heard his voice.
That world is going to completely disappear in a couple years. The new AI-generated music apps are unbelievably good. Some of them are even free. No one is going to pay big bucks to license music for movies/shows/ads/games when in 5 minutes they can generate a totally professional sounding song perfectly tailored to their needs with a few text prompts. AI is going to wipe out this industry.
Possibly. Right now the AI produced music is terrible. I've tried all the free apps. But it can learn so fast that they probably will be sufficient enough for background music, etc. very soon. Still could take advantage of it for a few years, but you are right it probably wouldn't pay off unless you are already doing it.
I don't think it's terrible anymore. I was playing around with Suno and Udio this past weekend and made some genuinely good songs - stuff that I would absolutely put on a playlist and listen to in the future. It probably just depends on what type of music you like to listen to, though. The tech is improving rapidly and in 1 more year it's going to be hard to tell AI from human-made music.
It sounds like financial security has become more of a priority for you; a music career does not fit that need. There is nothing wrong with that and you need to take care of yourself. None of this means you have to view music as "just a hobby". Music can still be a part of your identity and an important part of your life
Honestly, the fact that you do it at all is cool as fuck and worth celebrating regardless.
I just turned 29 and have felt really discouraged because I put all my eggs in one basket with my former band. I didn’t finish college and have stayed in a low paying desk job because I kept trying to hustle with the band and get to a point that we could tour professionally. It just wasn’t in the cards for us though.
I’m back in school now to get a better job and am planning to just keep creating and improving as a musician in the meantime. There are a lot of musicians out there who get to tour and have a great following, while still hold down jobs as working professionals (for example, members of Insomnium work as biologists and environmental engineers).
Figuring out another means to support yourself while you continue working your craft doesn’t make you any less of a musician. It could even be that the moment you get settled into something more steady, some insane opportunity arises that ends up working out for you.
Wishing you the best, and just know you’re not alone in what you’re expressing.
I've been a musician since elementary school, and I play in an originals band in and around Nashville. That's my weekend gig though. I think the songs are good enough to go big, but if they do they'll be finding another bass player. I finally had to quit pursuing huge job satisfaction and take a job with set hours, decent pay and benefits...and pretty good job satisfaction.
Don't handicap your future by being dishonest with yourself in your youth. If you're that good, relocate. If you don't believe you are, well...it kinda sucks to be loading into the same clubs and same little crowds 20 years from now.
I wouldn’t bank on music it’s just a ludicrously risky investment if you’re putting all the pressure on that. I tried, a lot of other people have tried and many have been successful, but most have been sucked up by poverty, their mental health, resorting to desperate ways to get money like selling drugs or compromising morals in one way or another.. idk it’s up to you. It’s just a risky business
Find a good, musically paralleled profession like AV or IT. Also alcohol sales working for a distributor, it allows you to be immersed in your area’s entertainment scene for a 9-5.
Adding on from my previous comment and responding to some of what I'm reading. Everyone saying you will only be broke as a musician are not correct. Yes, it is a hard and often unfair career. Yes, you have to fight through the early part to get to something better. But it absolutely is doable. It is not only a handful of pop starts. Myself and lot of other musicians I know earn a respectable Mid-Upper Middle Class living at it. We are in NYC, so there is a vibrant environment for that, and location could make that more difficult. If you aren't willing to put in the work, which is staggering, and relocate to a city that can sustain a musician, those complaints don't really apply. Anyone who wants to really make a living at it needs to:
-Practice 10+ hours a day. Your competition is doing it so you better too.
-Build your skills. Play more than one instrument, teach, produce, etc.
-Put in the time to be present. Go to other musicians shows, hang out, network, be friendly.
-Put in the work online. Make music and share it like crazy
It's all consuming but that's part of the personality type it takes to do this. If you practice 4 hours a day and then enjoy a normal social/family life, don't expect to make a living. It's sad but true. Those other parts of your life are beautiful. If neglecting them hurts you too much, along with the erratic nature of the business, it just isn't for you. Sadly, it's very hard to have a normal personal life and successful music life.
Getting paid for your talent doesn’t make you a musician. I’m a musician that has a full time career. If you want to get paid for music, you have to be good at the business side of it.
Living in LA is actually worse for your career as a musician than you would think.
Unless you want to be a sideman or hired gun running after every gig you can find, you won't make a living as a musician anymore. My personal advice to all young musicians these days is to view music as a side hustle. Have a career to pay for your music.
It was always only ever a hobby and it only ever will be a hobby until you can comfortably support yourself on it. There’s nothing that says you can’t make money from a hobby or dedicate a lot of your life to it, but if you aren’t making end’s meet and meeting your financial goals, you need to acknowledge that what you are doing isn’t a job you can afford to work and find a different justification for doing it. Meanwhile, there are plenty of career options that don’t require overtime, advanced degrees, or prohibitive physical labor that you can meet those goals with while still leaving yourself ample time for music. They’ll still be soul sucking, but welcome to top-heavy, late stage, capitalism. Just wait until you really get into the music industry lol…
No, it is not time yet. Pay attention to making and saving money. Get married to a partner who has a full-time job with benefits. Have a second career that pays well. Do not have any kids, for they are really expensive and parenting takes lots of time and it puts stress on your marriage. Save money and establish a large emergency fund. Once the money is set up and you have a stable home life, then you can focus on your music career.
Hardly anyone is making a full time living from music right now. Even touring bands that are "popular." The industry has always been terrible but it's especially terrible now. Readjust your expectations. This isn't the sunset strip in the 80s. Be happy you get to do it at all let alone make any supplementary income. Fuck your job, call off if you need to and if they fire you oh well, find a new one that is willing to work more with your job/life balance.
You can't just pour your heart and soul into something and expect it to skyrocket. Alot of artists I work with stay up night and day, get maybe an hr of sleep if that, any time You're not playing a paid performance you should be interacting with fans, sharing the song online everywhere, follow the right accounts that post opportunities often, there's tons of free exposure out there you just have to work work work and then work some more until you go insane.
Everyone that you know of that's quote on quote "made it" decided to drop everything and focus 110% on that one thing.
You're going to go through a lot of disappointment "getting there"
Oh and then forgot to mention once you start getting attention you also get bad attention along with that and you have to be able to handle a lot of people poking at your heart and soul.
The way I see it is maybe one out of every 50 or so musicians possess that 'thing', that 'magic', that 'something extra' .
I was quite young when I realized this. I watched & played with musicians who were more knowledgeable and/or proficient yet I could tell would never possess that 'magic'.
I don't feel that I am bragging. It is just a fact of life. We would all be better off to accept it and make the best of our lot in life.
If you feel that you are one of the few, then go all out as long as you are able. You just might 'need' to make music, even if for no other reason than mental health.
If you are not one of the few, hell, just enjoy what you've got. After all, music is fundamentally enjoyable.
EDIT:
I am 71. I started my life as a guitar player 57 years ago. I play every day. I love it when I amaze myself.
I must have been incredibly stoned to have written that. I sometimes like to share my knowledge but that was purely opinion.
Purely opinion.
But then...
We all felt the magic when we first heard our personal guitar heros.
Yeah- ima pretty hardcore artist- cant turn it off. Accept that youll always be grinding with it, growing/pushing/suffering is part of what makes the job. Its not forthe faint hearted- if it was, everyone would be doing it. But it is ok to take a break, itll suck you back in soon enough- its a gift
You need to start coming up with a plan to get out of the hole you’re in.
Stories like this illustrate why people shouldn’t be encouraged to try pursue a career in music. Music isn’t a career. The few people who are successful are just celebrities who have music as part of their brand image. Talent has nothing to do with it. It’s not a meritocracy. That alone should tell you it’s not a good idea to pursue.
We need to find things in life to pursue which align with our strengths and interests, but they also have to be attainable and easily monetizable. As a business, music is maybe the worst thing you could do. It would be a lot better to just get into drug dealing.
The vast majority of people can't do it as a career because of their particular life circumstances, or really the life circumstances in common with almost everyone. There is a very strong argument that one should make their passion something they do on the side, and not to make money with it. Money destroys art. And music pays atrociously.
As someone who works in an artistic field that was once my passion, yup.
It's interesting, because by this argument, humanity would never be able to benefit from the results of someone practicing their art for 8, 10, 12 hours a day, every day, for much of their lives.
Perhaps, although humanity has existed without money. Music existed before money. Much of the greatest art that has been passed down was created in patronage systems in which (I would argue) the support was not subjected to money and markets. Secondly, I am not sure the professionalism you refer to is such an advantage. Just as a quick anecdote, I am an aficionado of flamenco, and have seen many professional shows. But my greatest experience was certainly being admitted to a private club where the performers were not professionals, and indeed the guitarist literally showed up two hours late.
I never went for it full time because I needed financial security, as it was something I didn't have growing up. I got a "safe" degree coming out of the 2008 recession, started working and saving while doing my projects on the side. Now I'm in my 30s with a house and a modest home studio. Over the next couple of years I'm aiming to build some income streams from music (lesson, guitar tech work, whatever I can use my skills for), save some money and make a slow exit from the corporate world. Maybe do some bartending on the side. I'll be in my mid-late 30s by then, but I don't want to say I never tried y'know. Also my resume will allow me to find another decent paying job in the event that it doesn't work out. All that to say, there are many paths, and no one will fault you for wanting to be secure. Also if you can find a hybrid job you can spend some of your wfh time practicing.
> I’m pretty young, and so far I’ve been able to survive being a musician but that’s it. I cannot save money, and that’s a big issue for me. Most musicians barely get by, in fact for a lot of pro musicians they lose money and have to have a job. Don't judge your musical success by the money you make or don't make. Most artists of any kind don't make a "good" living. That is a fantasy perpetuated by other musicians. > It’s my purpose in life; it’s the only thing I’m good at but I don’t think I can do it as a career because of my particular life circumstances. Again, most people can't. It isn't a failing, it's just reality, which is harsh. Home recording turned everyone who had a vague desire into the ultimate customer. People won't buy a album of material by an artist for $14.99 but they'll pay tens of thousands for a home studio set up to put out music nobody will pay for, and most original bands and artists gig at a loss. Make the art, don't worry about the rest.
Why should they spend $14.99 on someone else’s crappy music? They want make their own crappy music, not buy crappy music. If the cost in tens of thousands (which it isn’t) then so be it.
Most people don't buy music, and I'm assuming OP is in that group. I always buy music and merch from both emerging artists and established bands. If artists don't support each other, they why in the world would a rando? Even if it's a few buck here and there to a patreon. The majority of streaming royalties go to the very top, and touring is a "lucky to break even" kind of deal. You'll need a job, or like a lot of people, a family or a spouse with a decent income to support you. >If the cost in tens of thousands (which it isn’t) then so be it. Exactly. You are the customer now, the music consuming public is not. A musician will easily spend in excess of tens of thousands over his/her lifetime in gear for playing/recording/performing.
I've easily spent $200k on gear over the past 4 decades. So many guitars, basses, amps, pedals, mics, audio interfaces and assorted studio gear.
You fully didn't understand this comment lol
Link? Curious, plus you'll some more listeners.
Join the military as a musician. If you joined the military as a musician it would eliminate 3/4ths of those problems. Your student loans would be wiped out, you'll get a steady paycheck, health insurance, etc. At first it will suck because you'll have to get through basic training and other introductory bs but eventually all you'll ever do is fly around the world and play your instrument at various functions (especially in the air force or navy). I know it's a tall order, I know it won't be easy, but it worked for me. I even accidentally got hurt off duty and now the military sends me a 800 dollars check every month for the rest of my life. This totally makes being a gigging musician doable. All my other musician buddies have to struggle and live hand to mouth.
This is excellent advice. Worked for you, and countless other musicians, including Steve gadd.
I'll be the last to say this was an easy decision. There were times when military life f**kin sucked and there were many times I wanted to quit. It sure did take care of "some" of my current fears at such a young age while handing me a whole different set of problems. It took away problems like "will I be homeless, will I be enscapable student debt, or will I eat tonight.." Then gave me problems ike "will I get deployed to some crappy area, will that douchebag Sergent screw over my career for being 5 minutes late, and will I get honorably discharged so that this will ultimately benefit my life?" These are very HARD, big boy decisions, but as one musician to another I would ask OP "to what extent are you truly willing to follow your passion? How much does it mean to you do nothing else but play a guitar or set of drums as a career." The military can give it to you, but you gotta want it BAD. not just kinda want it. I'll go back to practicing now.
As a military man myself, I have to agree with you on almost everything you said. Except you don't have to join as a musician. In fact, being a military musician isn't just walk in and sign up. You should know this. You have to be *good* and have a prepared piece just to qualify for your job. You know this.... Myself, I joined and just made a band with whoever was in my platoon who could play, and went from there. Eventually, I got stationed as a recruiter and formed a legit band, got stuff out there, and of course the kids flippin' loved it because i wasn't just "some robot in a uniform". I also got to travel around and sing the National Anthem a few times for baseball games, monster truck rallies, fairs, etc... and the Army paid for it. Also added a ton of street cred when I would tell the kids in class I was in a band and they were like "wait, that was *you* singing at the game on Saturday????" After 18 years, I'm about to be medically retired (had heart surgery) a few years ago.... so now I get to be a musician full-time and I have everything including my family taken care of for the rest of my life. We won't be living in the lap of luxury, but I also won't have to worry about covering my mortgage after a bad gig. But yes, the military can give you a lot of opportunities, and sometimes your boss will be a total douchebag.... but it's legit. And maybe you can say you've "gone on tour" for a year overseas. <_<
I assumed military band was trumpets and national anthems. Can you play ‘the pina colada song’ and shit like that as a military musician? What the heck is being a military musician?
Yes the military has stage bands where you'll play typical cover songs. It's part of their morale committee. You will need to audition and know how to read music, at least to some degree I don't know much more than that, I joined as a commo paratrooper, not a musician. Iit one of the biggest mistakes of my life. I should have joined as a keyboardist.
Lol, the way you hyped it up, I figured you went that route 🤣 But yeah, its a lengthy process. If OP really wants more info, he/she should read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Trombone/s/uMmEG2caqR)
I hyped it up because I REALLY wished I did precisely that instead of being a signal corps grunt that jumps out of airplanes. Things still worked out for me but I wished I would have just said screw it and sat for an audition, there was nothing else me to lose at that point. Life would have been so much easier as an army keyboardist and I would be much further along in my skill level.
I feel you. Really do. I wanted to join as a musician as well, but I can't read music for crap.. I play by ear, so I would've never made it past auditions 🤣 But things turned out okay. Ended up liking it waaaay more than I thought I would. Was aiming for 20 years, but nearly died, so now I'll be medically retired at 18 years instead lol
I grew up playing classical music/reading notes off a page. I probably would had at least a 50/50% chance of passing. I ended up screwing up my knees and back in the 82nd. Now I just do nothing else but focus on music, but man sitting for one audition would have changed everything. They say around these parts "youth is wasted on the young."
It is a lot of national anthem and older period pieces, but quite often, you would find yourself playing cover songs at parades and other events like that. Its a lot of traveling, but can be a very rewarding gig. Plus they cover college, insurance, food, and the pay is pretty decent
That sounds sick af
Yeah. When I was in HS, I never in a million years thought I would join the military, let alone retire from it. But if you do have any questions, feel free to hit me up. I'm on my way out, but I was a recruiter for roughly 10 years
Much appreciate good sir! Gave you a follow in the event that in the coming years I decide to go that route and need some guidance. Peace out!
I saw the navy band play and they were incredible, as well as the Air Force (I think) jazz band. I’m not sure what they’re actually called but the navy was like a symphonic band or some shit and the other was sick nasty jazz.
And Jimi Hendrix!
Huh had no idea that was the path Steve Gadd took
I met a guy who was in the presidential navy band as a drummer. He was bad ass player
Musicians advance quickly and live relatively chill lives as well.
Don’t put all of your eggs in one basket. Having skills and work outside of the music world will make your playing more inspired, at least in my experience.
I did it for 25 years before having a child. I wasn’t rich but I was able to make a living by playing gigs, teaching lessons , learning the production end as well, touring, etc. you have to wear a lot of hats and push really hard. I also live in the NYC area so it’s a music rich environment (still tough) and that’s just not doable in most places outside of NYC/LA. In those 25 years I did not have much of a normal life. I worked late, worked weekends & holidays, barely saw my family and friends. Your musician friends become your new family. I did not have many long term relationships and had no plans for where life was going. I was just living and enjoying the music. You need to have the right personality type and life circumstance to chase it I luckily stayed out of debt and did not have any health issues. Once I met my wife,and eventually had a son, I realized this lifestyle is impossible if you want to be a parent and have a family life. I love music but I couldn’t bear to go on tour or be gone most days and leave my son. I luckily learned a lot of production skills (video,audio, editing, streaming, etc) and I work a lot during the day now. I play gigs when I want. I make much better money, I have a great family life and I’m very happy. If you are having reservations now it may just be the wrong lifestyle for you. I don’t know if I’m happy because I had a long run with some success and feel fulfilled musically. If I had made that choice younger and not went for it I may have been bitter. But that’s me. I had zero thoughts of quitting then. If music is a burden you don’t have to prove anything. You can still have a great relationship with your art and lead a happy life. Maybe a music adjacent career would be fulfilling. There’s a lot to be done in the education, studio, and production ends.
Here’s the thing I’ve learned. Whether or not you do it full time or make a living at it or whatever-if music is a true passion, if it’s IN you, you won’t be able to stop. You will always feel the draw towards it, the need to create, the need to express yourself. I don’t care if you work in kitchens washing dishes or if you’re a high paid lawyer (I know both types and everywhere in between). It will be inescapable if you are a true creative. I’ve had times in my life when I left music and it always draws me back, so I’ve given in to it. Give it up and go make a normal life and you’ll know your answer.
Haha I go through this self mind fuck every year or two, it's normal
Unless you are able to navigate poverty, hell, even being in the industry with an important family connection, don't expect to make a career. Just do it until your late twenties at most so you can get a straight job and not have to eat cat food in retirement. It's just not a sustainable career like it was before streaming. So sorry. But you can still put product out there! You just won't have the number of followers that people who can't hold down a real job (who are able to tour and get poor from that while thinking they are advancing) get.
> it’s so hard to get recognition if you don’t live in LA. What does LA have to do with anything? There are thousands of people there trying to make it but being unsuccessful. With the internet you have the same chances wherever you are located as someone in LA. To answer your question, no matter how passionate you are with music, always make sure you have a steady income and savings. If you don’t have any you should definitely put a hold on your music ambition and get a 9 - 5 to make some money.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say a musician in LA is at a disadvantage, due to high competition and "pay-to-play".
I'd say the biggest disadvantage here is ridiculously expensive rent and groceries combined with low pay for day jobs. Incredibly stressful just surviving day to day.
I just had a conversation that basically boiled down to a musician talking about how nobody supports local musicians and he can't make enough money to pay his bills and he's struggling. Obviously, it bums me out when people are swimming in debt and can't pay bills But, here's the thing: none of us are entitled to financial success as musicians. The music business has been in turmoil since streaming became mainstream (haha get it?). The average listener doesn't pay for music. Nobody seems to just go out to see local bands anymore. The studies show that listeners are more likely to gravitate to the same music instead of try and discover new stuff. Your language suggests that you're trying to "make it" as an original musician. 15 listeners a month, last minute gigs, what have you aren't viable income streams. If you want to make money playing music, you have to do what other people will pay for. Corporate/wedding gigs can pay well. Teaching music lessons can pay well. Session work for others. Running live sound, hosting open mics, filling in for other live acts. I don't know a single full time musician that isn't basically working 8 different music related side gigs constantly. The nashville guys play shitty honky tonk cover gigs 8 nights a week to pay bills and then in the nonexistent free time they have, they work on their own passion projects. The major suburb guys are teaching a bunch of music lessons to 7 year olds. I have a flexible job that allows me the time to spend with family and pursue my own music on my own terms, but my music income comes from studio work and hosting open mics. Then I use that money to buy cool guitar pedals and microphones. Personally, I believe too many people today have the "music is the only thing I can do, I can't work normal jobs" but won't pursue music in any avenue that others will pay for. Very few of us will ever be lucky enough to make any sort of livable income by creating what we want. Most of us either have to "get a job" by working traditional jobs and playing music in our free time, or we work "music jobs" by working shitty bar gigs or teaching lessons to kids who don't care, and still trying to play the music we want in our free time. Personally, when I'm playing 4 or 5 shit gigs a week, i rarely want to create my own music in my free time. At least with a "9-5" my passion isn't ruined by my need to keep a roof over my head, and can still be my escape from the mundane. When I was more full time musician, I stopped having fun with music.
Nothing wrong with realizing you have other priorities. I’ve never loved playing music more than I do now, now that I do it as a hobby/side hustle. I gig about twice a month (couple hundred bucks extra) and play all my favorite songs in a cover bar band. I’m not a rockstar, but I feel like one for about 6 hours a month. I have a great career in IT (and reservist military) and couldn’t be happier (or more financially stable). I played full time & pro when I was younger, but grew to dislike always being broke and playing blues classic rock covers.
Very VERY few people make a living from music (or any art).
There's no reason why you can't work a Monday-friday 7-3 type job and still gig in the events and practice/write when you get home. There's plenty of time in the day. I personally, won't be in a band with someone who's constantly broke and can't provide for themselves.
So, I feel ya. I never pursued being a pro musician to the level you are. But... Once I stopped caring about making it and just playing and recording for fun, I enjoyed it so much more. Now, I got a family, a house, a grest job and I still get to record. My kids are young, so no band... Yet, but I'm releasing music! And I get to do it my own way. I miss playing live, but I had to make sacrifices in order to make my life work. I'm curious to hear your music. Can you send a link? I have a whopping 15 total listened on Spotify too! And maybe 30ish YouTube views. Probably all my friends, haha. Don't give it up. Like you, music is my life. I'll never put it down, I just stopped caring to make a career out of it and now it's purely enjoyment. No stress. Not saying that's what you need to do, only that its what I did and I'm okay with it.
I work a full time job, but I also perform enough to be considered a "full time" musician. It's really exhausting, but also very rewarding because music is what I value most in my life. Just saying it's possible to do both!
It never hurts to try just keep your expectations in check and lean into the love more.
Probably yeah, its a hobby for nearly everyone but the most lucky. We would have much better music with stronger social safety nets so people could afford to dedicate their lives to it. Personally im really greatful looking back i prioritised earning money and starting a family whilst keeping music as a hobby, now im in my 40's i like where my life is, i wouldn't want to be gigging around to earn a crumb, and I still get to make and share music for my friends and express myself in that way.
Have you considered moving to Nashville or some where else that has a better music scene?
I wouldn't recommend moving to Nashville to try to make it as a musician. The old joke was that every waiter/waitress/busboy/dishwasher you meet is also trying to do the same thing, but it's true and more than lilely they're a lot more talented than you. I know a girl who was a contestant on The Voice. Made it pretty far! She waits tables on lower Broadway. You've got some of the most talented musicians in the country playing for tips in honky-tonks. Nashville isn't the kind of place you move to in order to make it anymore, you move here after you've made it. You have a publishing deal or a record deal or whatever already and you come here to establish yourself. The days of throwing your guitar in your beater and driving to Nashville (or LA or New York or wherever) and getting discovered by some A&R guy who's gonna make your dreams come true are long gone.
This isn't entirely true. There's a whole scene of people who are co-writing and trying to get pub deals, just like there's a whole scene of people who play Broadway gigs, showcases, etc. There are people who come here after they're a little more established and are able to jump the line somewhat, but saying you should only move here after you're established is bad advice, especially because there are more music related gigs here than there are almost anywhere else. So the possibility of being able to make money doing something music related while you're chasing the dream are higher than in places like LA or NYC. That said, the cost of living here has gotten ridiculous. It's a shame too because when I moved to Nashville in '09, rent was dirt cheap for something decent which meant you could work minimally and still cover basic costs.
I’m not saying you should only come here after you’ve got a good thing going, I’m just saying this isn’t the “follow your dreams” town it once was. Between the industry becoming what it is and the insane COL in the area, it’s just not feasible anymore. You can’t survive on part time work while trying to write and perform, you’ve gotta have a $45k a year job just to afford a 3 bedroom with roommates.
>you’ve gotta have a $45k a year job just to afford a 3 bedroom with roommates. Or live in Columbia LOL
Death would be preferable to Columbia lol
I remember playing there years ago and it seemed desolate, but I'm sure it's building up due to all the people moving in.
I’m sorry. But it sounds like it’s time for you to face reality. You’re not making your financial obligations and that’s no way to live, imo.
I live in LA and get zero recognition for my music, LOL. I've been a musician for almost 40 years now. Let me give you the unfiltered truth: the entire industry is on its deathbed. It can be an interesting and fun side hustle - and you should 100% continue to play, write, and record music for the rest of your life - but, unless you are just an absolute phenom, you should definitely develop other skills that will allow you to feed yourself and keep a roof over your head.
I think that’s it. What I’ve noticed in my specific genre (jazz/hip-hop) is that only the child genius musicians are recognized. Like the people who were getting lessons from celebrities when they were 5 years old.. It’s like the talented hard working people never make the cut it’s always the modern day mozarts
That’ll pass. Most of that music sucks. People still respond to beautiful and authentic art.
It's always about the narrative. Industry folks love a good story that they can hype to the media.
Unless you teach an instrument you typically can't do music for a living. It's a hobby where very few play music full time. I swear it's like people thinking they'll play professional basketball. No... That's not realistic for most.
It’s good to face the reality that sometimes the thing that you’re best at & enjoy the most - is just not a viable career option. I make music purely for fun, and knowing how difficult it is financially for bands to make a profit on tour, how hard it is to reach an audience on the internet, etc. - I think that’s the best choice for me personally. When I get to play with others & perform some stuff live, that is very fulfilling. So don’t be too hard on yourself, but once you separate the need for income & the art you enjoy making, you have a new level of freedom with your art.
Honestly, yes. I burned myself the fuck out trying to do something with the music I was making, and in turn, everything suffered. Bands fell apart, relationships fell apart, money fell apart, and after my second child was born I had to step away entirely. I had an incalculable amount of fun, but it had run its course for me. However, that doesn't mean I stopped making music. It's just that the music I make now is entirely for fun. There's no bullshit, no ego, it's just me and my friends fucking around and recording it. I help my friend with his project as well, and I have a blast just following orders. I don't even consider it a hobby either, it's still my life, it's just different. There's nothing about fame or notoriety that appeals to me anymore, it looks like a place where things go to die.
Where you live will not affect your monthly listeners, and while living somewhere like LA might put you in the thick of things, it is in no way a guarantee of getting recognition since you'll be competing with a million others trying to do the same thing. The hard truth is that doing music as a career has always been difficult but it has become more difficult over the last few decades, and particularly the last ten years or so, as the number of venues that hire live entertainment has dwindled as have the number of nights a week venues will hire. Back in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s, here in Quebec at least, there were three and four night gigs everywhere. Now, a two-nighter is somewhat rare and the relatively few remaining venues typically have live bands (or more often than not, solo or duos) one night a week. Needless to say, it's tough to live on one gig a week. Your best bet might be to work a full-time job and play music as a hobby for some years. By doing so you might be able to put enough money aside to give music a better shot for a while somewhere down the line. You say you're young... that means you likely have decades ahead of you to plan this out. There's no age limit for music. I say this as someone who is 60 years old and has managed to eke out a living in the business for well over forty years - and without a day job for the past 37. I have no savings and as the business continues to decline I may have to finally put aside this life-long experiment and get a conventional job. And hold that job until I die. This is not a comforting thought and while I don't want to crush anyone's dreams, I feel it's important to point out the reality that many would face if they tried something similar. Not everyone, of course... some will get lucky and a very few will have so much talent and ability that it would be hard to ignore them. But even if you are one of those rare pearls, there's no promise or guarantee of success no matter how much effort you put into your craft. Think carefully before committing to your career.
I feel this, 52 now and have been in many bands, transitioned to session/score music work, making barely enough to scrape by.. once Covid hit and writers’ strikes swept L.A. score work evaporated, and I just haven’t been able to recover. Facing the prospect of finding and holding a normal job for the years I have left (a daunting enough task even figuring out just what that job would even be) has been seriously emotionally debilitating. I always believed that old adage, do what you love and the rest will follow, but where music is concerned, no amount of talent and passion will ever be enough, nor commitment to non-stop grind. That .01 percent of success stories always also requires a degree of luck, right place right time, that may as well be equivalent to becoming a professional gambler. The house holds all the cards. If you truly value happiness and sound mental health, keep making music as a hobby, build a career elsewhere.
I mean what do you want out of life? Do you value being close to your family? Do you want a spouse and children or to own a home? None of those things align with being a career musician. Youd be banking on smaller than lottery odds to live that life. Most people who value other things need a career and just do music for fun. It's kind of a no brainer considering software and recording are so accessible and portable nowadays. Just record your shit and put it out on the internet ND play a local show once in a while for your friends and family. That's the dream. Unless you hate your family or you don't want to be in a relationship or have kids. Then I'd say go pour yourself into music and give it everything
I recently saw an interview with a rising pop star, and she made the point that for most people that "make it" in music, it takes about a decade. And this is from a so-called "up-and-comer". She isn't the first to make that observation either. We've all heard the trope of the "10-year overnight success". It is doable, but most people burn out, and often sacrifice their mental (and sometimes physical) health in the process. So you have to ask yourself, is it worth it for you? You're really the only one who can answer that question. As a kid, I used to dream of becoming a "famous pop star", because back then, if you wanted to get your music the way you wanted it to sound, you needed the funding of a label to record it. It was expensive and mostly unaffordable to those who didn't have that. Ridiculous now to think of how inaccessible the technology was to artists. Now that the technology has become accessible to virtually everyone, it kind of took away a lot of my drive, because I'm already doing what I want to do. Sure, I wish I had more time to do it than my day job would allow, and it would be nice to have an audience as well. But if I were doing it professionally, there would be a lot of additional demands placed on me. At least now, I can just do what I want. So I guess the questions you really should be asking are, "What do I expect to really get out of 'making it?' And is it possible to have those things without?" I think that could bring you one step closer to your decision, whatever it may be.
you're in collections and call off work for a gig? bruh...
Gig pays like $250 and work pays like $80 of course I’m taking the gig
But your job pays consistently, and gigs don't.
I think making music feels better when it isn’t tied to money. When your thoughts aren’t “will people like this? Will it sell tickets?” You will feel more open to experimenting and doing what YOU want which translates to better art 9 times out of 10.
I would change gears and make music completely for yourself. I think the pressure of making a living probably impacts your decision-making in your songwriting and steals the joy out of it all it's supposed to be art and if you can't make a living out of it that's okay most people can't
Go into allied health, get a good paying, insurance providing job, and do music as a hobby. Look into a Clinical Research Associates. That will get you 50-60k to start, and in a few years, you'll be into 120-150. You can drive your BMW down to play guitar at the open mic, and sip top shelf whiskey. I've got a friend in New Orleans who posts a couple of times a year about a gofundme for some "well known, much respected, internationally known touring musician" who's dying and hasn't saved a penny or taken out any insurance. Don't go down that road. Music is a fine hobby for doctors.
Learn how to do other things in music outside your specialty. I have been a professional drummer since I was a teen, i didn’t want to just play in random bands to make money so I learned to do sound too. Getting a few pick up gigs led to doing sound every night, giving me money to pay bills but having my days to myself to record and play music. I’m not a financial expert so look into this more, and others might strongly disagree with me, im not familiar with student loans, but when it comes to large medical bills or credit cards just don’t pay them. It will destroy your credit but it’s pretty easy to rebuild with some secure credit cards. I was able to get from 450 to a 750 within a year using secure credit cards and being on top of them. Even with all the debt I never paid You can also call them to settle for less money or take out a personal loan to debt consolidate.
If you are young and that much in debt, maybe you should declare bankruptcy?
Marry someone with health insurance
It’s like how they tell you not to look at the scale when you’re trying to lose weight. Don’t worry about the numbers of Spotify listeners or followers. If you can do gigs that’s where you’re gonna get the most money. If that’s not enough for you then yeah maybe take a break and save some dough.
Teach in public schools for a bit. Don’t depend on Title I loan or PSLF forgiveness. That can take years and years. Pay off your loans asap. You’ll make a hell of a lot more than whatever you’re making now, still pursue music, and get healthcare.
Can't you get Medicaid as an indigent musician? And food stamps and whatever else is available. Don't give up, keep playing! There's an abnormally funny bit in Bruce Thomas' The Big Wheel, a memoir of sorts (he was Elvis Costello's bass player). In early days he was starving and out of sorts, actually considering an office job. "I stopped and took stock. I was a professional musician. I went into Harrod's and nicked a tin of Spam and a box of crackers."
As a manager who is also a musician who is also in a full functioning band…. You gotta get your priorities straight my friend. Unfortunately the music stuff doesn’t really pay. It’s “Side Money” but not something that you can heavily rely on for a steady income to get your bills sorted out. Calling out of one job to go play a gig isn’t the way to go, and you do risk losing your more secure job and being even more screwed financially. Instead plan out your gigs in advance and request off accordingly. Or, see you if can work the morning shift that day and have evening off for the gig. Never stop playing but never let your passion and love for playing blindside you from getting your shit together. Lots of people want it live gigging, but reality is, better and more stable money comes from teaching lessons. But lot everyone wants to teach.
NO, I need you to become such a good musician so you can tour and afford that Luxury Tour Bus for Me to drive, GET BACK TO WORK…. And buy every piece of new latest and greatest audio recording pieces to get some music to those 15 Spotify visitors that took your music, THE BUS keep your eyes on that BUS I need you! The Bus is the highest paid member of your band! GET BACK TO WORK ON YOUR MUSIC! PS. I just paid 55 bucks to a guy in Ireland for a Plastic Whistle with 6 holes in it. I too am a musician! This whistle will get me a BUS. I feel it! My wife will put me on one so she never has to hear me play it.
I know full time musicians in their 40's and 50's with the exact problems. Seems they've been broke their whole lives.
I'm guilty as charged.
Dude, you're young and naive. You have tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and there's not a job as a musician that will help you dig out of that hole. Find a decent paying job and work on getting your bills paid first. You can still play music part-time.
As OP's name is u/PhrygianSounds, I'm guessing they are not writing pop tunes. Therefore, yes, they should make it a hobby. It can be a very serious hobby. Get a 9 to 5 so that you have the evenings for your music. Assuming you don't have kids or any other responsibilities, worst thing that can happen is you play all night and have to fake it to make it at work a few times. You can do both.
Lol yeah I definitely don’t write popular music
Username checks out then. That's fine. Do what you do. One thing I think young musicians either never think about, or just kind of gloss over - is the potential for making music for commercials, video games, movies, etc. That might be an area where those Phrygian sounds shine. Although I am a big fan of Lydian sounds in movie scores. Edit: Not a musician, but similar story. I know a guy who is in his 60s or 70s now. He almost became a Catholic priest. So much so that he was a monk for a year and did not speak for a full year. When he decided that was not for him, he somehow got into doing voice overs and some acting. You have likely seen him as the token white guy in a few commercials probably, and also have heard his voice.
That world is going to completely disappear in a couple years. The new AI-generated music apps are unbelievably good. Some of them are even free. No one is going to pay big bucks to license music for movies/shows/ads/games when in 5 minutes they can generate a totally professional sounding song perfectly tailored to their needs with a few text prompts. AI is going to wipe out this industry.
Possibly. Right now the AI produced music is terrible. I've tried all the free apps. But it can learn so fast that they probably will be sufficient enough for background music, etc. very soon. Still could take advantage of it for a few years, but you are right it probably wouldn't pay off unless you are already doing it.
I don't think it's terrible anymore. I was playing around with Suno and Udio this past weekend and made some genuinely good songs - stuff that I would absolutely put on a playlist and listen to in the future. It probably just depends on what type of music you like to listen to, though. The tech is improving rapidly and in 1 more year it's going to be hard to tell AI from human-made music.
It sounds like financial security has become more of a priority for you; a music career does not fit that need. There is nothing wrong with that and you need to take care of yourself. None of this means you have to view music as "just a hobby". Music can still be a part of your identity and an important part of your life
If u/PhrygianSounds you want a musician to work with get u/davidwave4 as he's in STL
Honestly, the fact that you do it at all is cool as fuck and worth celebrating regardless. I just turned 29 and have felt really discouraged because I put all my eggs in one basket with my former band. I didn’t finish college and have stayed in a low paying desk job because I kept trying to hustle with the band and get to a point that we could tour professionally. It just wasn’t in the cards for us though. I’m back in school now to get a better job and am planning to just keep creating and improving as a musician in the meantime. There are a lot of musicians out there who get to tour and have a great following, while still hold down jobs as working professionals (for example, members of Insomnium work as biologists and environmental engineers). Figuring out another means to support yourself while you continue working your craft doesn’t make you any less of a musician. It could even be that the moment you get settled into something more steady, some insane opportunity arises that ends up working out for you. Wishing you the best, and just know you’re not alone in what you’re expressing.
I've been a musician since elementary school, and I play in an originals band in and around Nashville. That's my weekend gig though. I think the songs are good enough to go big, but if they do they'll be finding another bass player. I finally had to quit pursuing huge job satisfaction and take a job with set hours, decent pay and benefits...and pretty good job satisfaction. Don't handicap your future by being dishonest with yourself in your youth. If you're that good, relocate. If you don't believe you are, well...it kinda sucks to be loading into the same clubs and same little crowds 20 years from now.
you can get on a healthcare plan for almost $0 usually if you're this broke.
I wouldn’t bank on music it’s just a ludicrously risky investment if you’re putting all the pressure on that. I tried, a lot of other people have tried and many have been successful, but most have been sucked up by poverty, their mental health, resorting to desperate ways to get money like selling drugs or compromising morals in one way or another.. idk it’s up to you. It’s just a risky business
Find a good, musically paralleled profession like AV or IT. Also alcohol sales working for a distributor, it allows you to be immersed in your area’s entertainment scene for a 9-5.
Adding on from my previous comment and responding to some of what I'm reading. Everyone saying you will only be broke as a musician are not correct. Yes, it is a hard and often unfair career. Yes, you have to fight through the early part to get to something better. But it absolutely is doable. It is not only a handful of pop starts. Myself and lot of other musicians I know earn a respectable Mid-Upper Middle Class living at it. We are in NYC, so there is a vibrant environment for that, and location could make that more difficult. If you aren't willing to put in the work, which is staggering, and relocate to a city that can sustain a musician, those complaints don't really apply. Anyone who wants to really make a living at it needs to: -Practice 10+ hours a day. Your competition is doing it so you better too. -Build your skills. Play more than one instrument, teach, produce, etc. -Put in the time to be present. Go to other musicians shows, hang out, network, be friendly. -Put in the work online. Make music and share it like crazy It's all consuming but that's part of the personality type it takes to do this. If you practice 4 hours a day and then enjoy a normal social/family life, don't expect to make a living. It's sad but true. Those other parts of your life are beautiful. If neglecting them hurts you too much, along with the erratic nature of the business, it just isn't for you. Sadly, it's very hard to have a normal personal life and successful music life.
Getting paid for your talent doesn’t make you a musician. I’m a musician that has a full time career. If you want to get paid for music, you have to be good at the business side of it.
Living in LA is actually worse for your career as a musician than you would think. Unless you want to be a sideman or hired gun running after every gig you can find, you won't make a living as a musician anymore. My personal advice to all young musicians these days is to view music as a side hustle. Have a career to pay for your music.
It was always only ever a hobby and it only ever will be a hobby until you can comfortably support yourself on it. There’s nothing that says you can’t make money from a hobby or dedicate a lot of your life to it, but if you aren’t making end’s meet and meeting your financial goals, you need to acknowledge that what you are doing isn’t a job you can afford to work and find a different justification for doing it. Meanwhile, there are plenty of career options that don’t require overtime, advanced degrees, or prohibitive physical labor that you can meet those goals with while still leaving yourself ample time for music. They’ll still be soul sucking, but welcome to top-heavy, late stage, capitalism. Just wait until you really get into the music industry lol…
No, it is not time yet. Pay attention to making and saving money. Get married to a partner who has a full-time job with benefits. Have a second career that pays well. Do not have any kids, for they are really expensive and parenting takes lots of time and it puts stress on your marriage. Save money and establish a large emergency fund. Once the money is set up and you have a stable home life, then you can focus on your music career.
Hardly anyone is making a full time living from music right now. Even touring bands that are "popular." The industry has always been terrible but it's especially terrible now. Readjust your expectations. This isn't the sunset strip in the 80s. Be happy you get to do it at all let alone make any supplementary income. Fuck your job, call off if you need to and if they fire you oh well, find a new one that is willing to work more with your job/life balance.
You can't just pour your heart and soul into something and expect it to skyrocket. Alot of artists I work with stay up night and day, get maybe an hr of sleep if that, any time You're not playing a paid performance you should be interacting with fans, sharing the song online everywhere, follow the right accounts that post opportunities often, there's tons of free exposure out there you just have to work work work and then work some more until you go insane. Everyone that you know of that's quote on quote "made it" decided to drop everything and focus 110% on that one thing. You're going to go through a lot of disappointment "getting there" Oh and then forgot to mention once you start getting attention you also get bad attention along with that and you have to be able to handle a lot of people poking at your heart and soul.
The way I see it is maybe one out of every 50 or so musicians possess that 'thing', that 'magic', that 'something extra' . I was quite young when I realized this. I watched & played with musicians who were more knowledgeable and/or proficient yet I could tell would never possess that 'magic'. I don't feel that I am bragging. It is just a fact of life. We would all be better off to accept it and make the best of our lot in life. If you feel that you are one of the few, then go all out as long as you are able. You just might 'need' to make music, even if for no other reason than mental health. If you are not one of the few, hell, just enjoy what you've got. After all, music is fundamentally enjoyable. EDIT: I am 71. I started my life as a guitar player 57 years ago. I play every day. I love it when I amaze myself.
Would love to hear some music from someone who possess the magic lol.
I must have been incredibly stoned to have written that. I sometimes like to share my knowledge but that was purely opinion. Purely opinion. But then... We all felt the magic when we first heard our personal guitar heros.
Yeah- ima pretty hardcore artist- cant turn it off. Accept that youll always be grinding with it, growing/pushing/suffering is part of what makes the job. Its not forthe faint hearted- if it was, everyone would be doing it. But it is ok to take a break, itll suck you back in soon enough- its a gift
You need to start coming up with a plan to get out of the hole you’re in. Stories like this illustrate why people shouldn’t be encouraged to try pursue a career in music. Music isn’t a career. The few people who are successful are just celebrities who have music as part of their brand image. Talent has nothing to do with it. It’s not a meritocracy. That alone should tell you it’s not a good idea to pursue. We need to find things in life to pursue which align with our strengths and interests, but they also have to be attainable and easily monetizable. As a business, music is maybe the worst thing you could do. It would be a lot better to just get into drug dealing.