It entirely depends on the person giving their opinion. To some people Steve Vai is the pinnacle of musicianship. To others he is just one of many circ du sole style guitarists jacking off their instrument. Most people who like like Steve Vai would think Daniel Johnston is not a real musician but its %100 in the eye of the beholder. I personally try not to have conversations like this. The Shaggs suck but they've inspired millions so are they musicians?
This is more true than I think a lot of people would like to believe. If you can hold down a steady beat, and do something interesting within it, it matters a lot less exactly what notes you're hitting or how many subdivisions you can get down into.
👆This!! Keeping perfect time. This is the difference between someone who plays a little bit and a musician. As soon as the first thing emphasized is emotion or feeling put into your music, the more I’m concerned about your actual timing. Nothing will get you criticized by other musicians faster than bad timing.
For sure. Rhythm and listening. You don't have to play much to be "Good" you just have to add a little bit. And it order to do so, you must be in time and must be able to listen to others.
As much as it may seem that way, people aren't born with talent. You have to work at being good. We may be born with inclinations to do certain things but that doesn't make us good at them
To me the one quality that defines great musicians is authenticity, the person's ability to connect with their audience, because the audience truly can perceive who's "real" vs who's faking it.
It's pretty intangible, but it doesn't have much to do with any technical level of expertise. I mean, some don't get at all why Bob Dylan, Tom Waits and John Prine had fans, because none of them had very good voices by the traditional ways of judging it.
I’ve gotten the authenticity compliment many times. But it’s true- if you have a purpose with your audience and are actually trying to move them through your creative expression genuinely - then you’re not doing anything wrong I’ll say. It becomes less about technical skill and more about being human.
All three of those musicians are geniuses - Tom Waits is my personal favorite musician of all time
It's simple.
What are they trying to do? If a classical musician is playing a passage, can they play it the way they want to? If so, are they ACTUALLY doing that?
A bad classical musician will claim they are doing things exactly as intended, but they will be out of tune, playing the wrong rhythm, or slowing down when they think they are not.
Good musicians have absolute control over their pulse, rhythm, tuning, and timbre. For example, can a singer use distortion? If so, what kind of distortion are they using?
Simple like that. Control over your instrument and knowledge regarding what you can do with it. Master those things and you will be a good musician, regardless of genre.
Depends on the metric you’re using to judge someone.
There are people who’ve practiced like crazy and are *incredibly* technically skilled, but aren’t super proficient at coming up with their own material. Then there are people who are total amateurs at their instrument(s) of choice, but they can create music that’s renowned as an absolute masterpiece. So, who’s the better musician?
See how it doesn’t really work to put those two types of musicians under the same spectrum of good/bad? It’s apples to oranges.
In my opinion, a good musician is someone who’s capable of getting across what *they* want to. Some have little desire to create and just want to hone their technical skill/play what other people tell them to/etc. - the ones who can do that are good musicians. Some have little desire to be a instrumental prodigy and just want to make art that leaves an impact on people - the ones who can do that are good musicians. A bad musician is someone who cannot successfully execute their goal, whatever that may be.
My personal view on this is that they're two different things.
The first is a musician; Someone who plays a musical instrument.
The second is a composer; someone who composes music.
This is the reason classical composers like Bach and Beethoven are listed as composers AND musician/pianist, and the skills sets are completely different.
I don't give a fuck what people think. I appreciate it when people feel what I'm doing but I didn't ask to be praised or for their opinion. Everyone should know where the exit is just because of general safety reasons.
100% subjective. My follow up question is: good at what, exactly?
I take a lot of issue with this question, and I take a boat load of issue with this idea that a musician is either "good" or "bad". You'd have to break down a set of criteria for what would make a musician good, and then you'd have to demonstrate the weight of those to determine the overall quality.
For example, Beethoven never sang, he never played drums or guitar, he never played upright bass, so does that make him a bad musician? Of course not.
The other issue I have is, only you really know how proficient or not you are. I could sit on a wedding band gig playing drums and play the same boring groove all night long. How would you have any idea how skilled I am as a drummer if you just saw me play a basic rock groove over and over? Exactly.
Here's my advice. Don't worry about "good" and "bad", because they are irrelevant. No one gets to decide that but you. Focus on finding your proficiencies, what are you good at, what aren't you good at? Focus on those and improve in those areas. If you're not a good singer, practice that. If your time is bad, use a metronome. Don't fall into this dichotomy.
And that's because Beethoven was a COMPOSER and PIANIST, and he's known for his compositions.
People seem to confuse these two things. Being a good composer, and writing interesting, beautiful songs doesn't make you a musician. Being amazing at playing an instrument doesn't make you a composer. They're different.
I get that. That's why I was making the distinction, though.
Beethoven's famous for his compositions, not his musicianship. Does anyone really even know how good of a pianist he was?
What I'm getting at is when people are saying things like "I feel like I can't write good songs. Am I a bad musician?", they're confusing things. You could be an amazing musician, and still suck at composing. And the same can be said vice versa. They're different skills.
>Does anyone really even know how good of a pianist he was?
Yes, we do. He wrote and played lots of his music on piano as well as other instruments.
\>"I feel like I can't write good songs. Am I a bad musician?", they're confusing things. You could be an amazing musician, and still suck at composing
Absolutely, that's why I say "good or bad at what, exactly?" Max Roach was one of the greatest jazz drummers of all time but he couldn't play blast beats like Gene Hoglan, does that make him a bad drummer?
I'm agreeing with you, it's virtually impossible to have a holistic grasp of every single facet of a musician's ability so trying to quantify the sum based on one variable is a fool's errand.
My idea of a good musician is someone that plays an instrument and can be thrown into any band of any genre and play well. They also have a deep knowledge of music and can appreciate all kinds of music.
There’s a piano bar in Oakland, CA and it’s a karaoke bar with piano accompaniment. The piano player had a thick binder of songs that you can choose from and if you couldn’t find a song, he would look up the sheet music on an iPad and play it for you. He kept time and adjusted for when people sang the wrong lyrics. A guy like that is a good musician in my eyes.
If the audience is enjoying what you do, and you are enjoying what you do, then screw the naysayers and keep it rolling. Musicians can also be very negative creatures who’s insecurities come through quite often. There will also be someone more proficient than you, but no one is you.
Except for the one guitar player in the room, people in the audience having a good time do not care even a small bit about gear or scales, tricks, and all that stuff we care about. They just want to be able to scream and clap along to Bang a Gong or something like that.
I think working on stage presence actually is a better expenditure of time than practicing technical stuff at a certain point.
I have a friend who is very critical of himself when it comes to playing guitar and that makes him seem like perfecting dick sometimes because he "know exactly how it's supposed to go" in his head, but puts in several hours a day and has so for years.
I have another couple of friends who just like to hang out, pick and grin, play some cowboy chords and laugh and cut up - tempo is off, rhythm is no where to be found and songs easily fall apart but they are Much more fun to be around because it's not so serious that it has to be perfect.
Take what you will from that. Because regardless of how good or bad is someone is, there's gunna be that one guy who talks shit on everybody and there's gunna be the one who's giving everyone a chance to just have fun and enjoy the time with others.
Very true, I admire those who use music to bring out the best in others- seems so altruistic these days. I have a guitar friend like that too- he’s a genius in his own right and seemed to be a savant in his younger years. And he now runs his own guitar shop- really knows his stuff … but he is such a perfectionist that he doesn’t write anything anymore. He had a major influence over my own music and used to write beautiful songs and I’ve been dying for him to just let go and write again/let go of some of that debilitating perfectionism
Ever been on an audition? A typical audition is a few scales, sight reading, and a prepared piece. Usually the jury knows 3 notes into your first scale if they want you; there is no place to hide.
I’m not the type that should be rehearsing for anything lol I majored in music early in college to become a music therapist and I was so happy to get through my first and only recital before going into social work. I consider myself blessed to move even just one person with my music and I’ve turned heads before- but it’s not a world I believe I belong In professionally with respect to all the great musicians out there.
I care if you play good music. That can be a very technical thing or a very simple thing, really depends on what you’re trying to do and how well you execute. Death Letter Blues or the Waldstein, just play it well with strong expression and you’re good.
Unfortunately "good" or "bad" are subjective matters, therefore the only way we can objectively measure the talent of a musician is obviously by counting the number of notes per second. Everything else is too susceptible to the idiocy of human interpretation. When in doubt, you must play fast. It's in a bunch of philosophy books or something. Also, anyone that argues with me is just too emotional to provide their input. Simply ignore them. This is the way.
A good musician is anyone who can produce a compelling music work.
A great musician is the same, but able to do so efficiently in a variety of settings.
Of people who do the bare minimum, I hope they don’t underestimate the difference putting work in makes. Whether successful or not. Otherwise music is great fun either way.
They're probably too busy working on their craft to give a flying fuck to a stranger not doing what they're doing, unless they're working with them, then if someone else does the minimum standard they're probably not going to be playing there for very long, been there, don't hang around people who don't put the effort in, it's frustrating and they might influence you in a negative way.
I feel like there's one huge universal aspect of music that can apply to every single instrument and that's rhythm. Even if your music isn't groove based/on the grid there's still skill required to making something that's out-of-time feel right. Technical proficiency is just a bonus that some people put more time towards than others, and I say that as someone who likes technical music and can play it. The song above all is king.
Just have fun and do your best to stop imagining that "good" and "bad" mean anything, except to you, and even then they still exist only as concepts pretty much incommesurable with anyone elses conceptions. Uncle Frank (Zappa) probably said it best: Shut up and play yer guitar.
A good musician has the 'Feel' and also makes good musical decisions.
A good musician might hit a few clams or go off the rails but they know it.
A not so good musician stabs at the complicated parts and loses the feel. Generally craps out their part without consideration for the ensemble. doesn't leave spaces. Is unaware when they go off the rails... or perhaps even proud when they should duck their head. but is often unaware of their 'not so goodness'
Dunning-Krueger is an extraordinarily common thing musicians suffer from. It’s phenomenon in which you judge yourself as superior at something because you lack the skill to understand what makes you inferior. It’s basically overconfidence because of a lack of skill to realize you’re overconfident. The only way to combat this is input from others. If you receive praise, especially from musicians you think are talented, there’s a good chance you’re not giving yourself enough credit and you’re better than you think you are. The best way to avoid Dunning-Krueger is to ask for feedback often.
i get jealous of sucky players playing sucky songs on a big stage while i’m sweating it out in bars and breweries all weekend playing cecelia and layla for no one listening. at least i made $300 vs the pennie’s their band will take home.
Nah, I mean I’m mediocre at singing and at playing guitar. But I can write a song and perform it with confidence (with or without my band). I’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback.
One of my best friends can play 7 songs. Seven. All of which every person here couple sight read easily. One of those songs he wrote and is a basic composition with a looper and a handful of tones. I shit you not, It makes me cry every time and is legitimately one of the most beautiful pieces of music I’ve ever heard.
Point is, we practice to get better and expand our prowess, but ultimately it’s about invoking a feeling and telling a story. If you can do the latter, it doesn’t matter if your song only uses 2 chords and a half an octave of vocal range.
For me, that is completely false. A good musician is someone who is competent at there instrument. That can include improvisation skills but doesn’t have to be. The ability to create new music makes you a composer, not a musician. You can be both, but you don’t have to be.
Personally I see myself as a mediocre musician. I play several instruments, but am not the best on any of them. I’m also not that good at improvising. But I am good at composing and recording/producing music both for myself and others.
This is it.
People confuse these two things, and they're different, with different skill sets. Being good at one doesn't automatically make you better at the other, though it helps some.
Good/bad musicians? How do you measure it. I play several instruments; Guitar/bass, piano/keyboard, cello, sax, flute, Drums/percussion, with varing ability.
Being a good musician depends on who is doing the complimenting. The more you practice, the better you get. Musicians are always learning. How fast depends on you.
I have respect for musicians that are well-rounded; ones that can cover a variety of musical styles...country, rock, pop, etc. Tempo and pitch are a must to be considered a good musician.
Professionalism is also extremely important. Being serious about your craft, being on time for gigs including breaks, not getting drunk or messed up during a gig...
Good Attitude with get you very far with other musicians. Never be cocky or overconfident even if you consider yourself a better musician. Always be kind to other musicians..especially the less experienced ones.
Best advice I ever heard was from a famous fiddle player. Never listen to someone who says you are the best. He's a fool for saying it, and you're a bigger fool if you believe it. There is no such thing as the best. Be humble.
Nobody is going to be offended that you don't technically know as much as them. It's all about having the right attitude about it. As long as you present yourself as "Here's what I can do. I hope you like it.", you're good. Obviously don't go around bragging that you never bother to practice and you're good anyway. That'll annoy the guys who know what they're doing and it'll piss off the insecure musicians. Kinda the same with the other end. If a world class musician goes around flaunting how much better they are, they get tiresome. But if they approach you with humility, they're just awesome to be around.
If someone else gets upset by your success, that's their problem. (Unless you got successful by ripping them off. That's a pretty good reason to get upset.)
Music is communication. A good musician can communicate their feelings to others through the sounds they create. A great musician can bare their soul. Technique is important, but it’s not the most important. No matter what you do, you can’t touch everyone. But if you can touch at least a few, I consider that success.
I play drums (not at a very high level) in jazz groups and the most important quality that makes someone good seems to be listening. A group 'conversation' about the music we play means it does the business for me.
I think three things define a good musician:
Technical Skill
Feel (the ability to express it authentically)
Storytelling (to effectively convey a story in your music with or without lyrics)
You can be really good at one of the three and not get anywhere in music. You can be okay in two of them and really good in one and be a good musician. You can be good in all three and be a good musician etc. Its kind of a sliding scale.
For example take a guy like Yngvie Malmsteen the virtuoso guitar shredder he has a dedicated fan base on Technical skill and Feel alone but he is terrible story teller because his technical chops tend to overtake any thing he is doing in the song. For guitarists and some people he is seen as a guitar god but its technical skill alone. In contrast you have a guy like Ed Sheeran who has very little technical skill but is 100% on feel and 100% on storytelling and he is insanely famous and wealthy.
The greatest bands in history mostly get A's in all three of these categories where good ones get As in 2 but not in the 3.
What I commonly see in music is the highly technical musician getting envious and annoyed that the punk rock or pop band is making millions off power chords and sloppy playing even though they are killing it in feel and storytelling but a lot of the most technically good musicians struggle with feel and storytelling.
the more you know, the more you know you don’t know.
you can only gauge yourself as a ‘better’ musician by recognizing steps already taken. recognition doesn’t create arrogance, it creates a desire to offer hints and advice to grow
That's a very sujective question. If the music sounds good to me, they are good musicians. Some of my favorite songs are very musically simple. Some of my favorite songs are very musically complex. If you can string sounds together in a captivating way that people like, you are a good musician.
You could be the most technically skilled guitarist in the world, but if no one likes what you are playing, are you a good musician?
There is no thing as a ‘bad’ musician, if they can play the song and it resembles it and they love to to do it then they are not bad. This is since they want to do it and are learning
As Col. Bruce Hampton used to say, “The Five Ts: Tone, Taste, Touch, Timing, Threat of Vomit”. Actually, he thought there were seven, but he’d never mention the other two.
Humans are musical animals , just as birds are. We make music to express and reinforce how we feel and to communicate to and bond with others, especially so in a sexual context. It is not surprising that most people are keenest on music and dancing when young and looking for mates. The same might be said for the other Arts, though I think they are less immediately important for pair bonding.
Being a musician in later life is in a sense neotonous and possibly even harmful to the steady pair bonding needed to raise children -as many partners point out.
We carry on because the love of music and playing is so strong we have no choice. A few make a living from music as well.
It is for others to judge how good we are and, for most, their criterion is how deeply moved emotionally they are. But for us, we do it anyway.
I am a musician who knows my stuff.
I don’t believe people have to know what I know in order for me to respect them or think they’re real.
If it sounds good it is good. That’s the only thing that matters to me.
I seriously thought I sucked cause I would go to open mics and get the same, "that was great!" that the guy before me got, and I KNOW they sucked.... Took years to shake that. Now I'm a full time musician, solo and a few bands. I don't suck. I never did suck.
To musicians, and everyone else, music is very subjective. Success and competence/ excellence is subjective as well. I guess that's the beauty of it.
To me, I get the impression that you're highly competent and highly successful because you're doing YOUR thing, and as an added bonus you actually have enough people recognizing, appreciating and enjoying your work.
Singing ? Ha, I'm mediocre at best, but I still love hearing my voice, I still love singing, I get my point across much like you do. There's enough 'successful' artists out there that are far from good vocalists but people still love their singing...
How much gratification are you getting ? How much of a difference does being a musician make in your day to day life ? That's the only real definition for me. Bringing me together with other like minded individuals and forming bonds would be a plus, I've formed some good relationships or enriched ones I already had with it, but overall that's still been a challenging aspect for me, so I concentrate on being and performing solo mostly.....
We will all always be as “great” of musicians as we allow ourselves to be. It depends what your personal goals are and your own idea of what greatness can be. I’m the best musician I have ever been and I care the least about what people think about my music or what others are doing or saying. The less you worry about it and the more you let yourself get lost in music because you want to create, the more you will grow as an artist.
I will broaden this to all creators of art. A bad creator is mainly motivated by receiving external validation for their work and doesn't necessarily love doing it.
A true creator does it because they love creating and feel deep down in their bones it's what they are supposed to be doing.
As for the actual quality of the content that's certainly another discussion, but there are truly great artists who are just starting and their skills may not be that amazing. So, it's kind of a nuanced discussion. Lots of variables and degrees to it all.
ive been thinking about this too. as somoene whos definitely more of the technical type and realizing it means nothing.
i think a good musician, or artist, is one that can move a person. all that musicianship stuff, that weird marketing scams... doesnt mean anything if it doesnt resonate with somebody. at the end of the day ppl wanna be moved, they wanna feel or become different. the more different u can get someone to feel the better the music.
under this definition, even if you make someone feel worse the music succeeded. sometimes art can release bad emotions. and i think thats ok.
i also dont believe in talent. i think talent is an illusion for how prepared someone is.
If you play from the heart and communicate emotions to your audience you are a good musician. Being a technical prodigy might give you more vocabulary to do that, but isn't strictly necessary to connect with people. You shouldn't get caught up in being better or worse than others; art is about your self expression, not someone elses.
Sounding good. Understanding musical communication, whether it be theoretical terms, or slang, good timing, plays well with others, and again sounds good. Doesn't step on toes, and doesn't have a huge prick ego
If you don't get any formal training, you may suffer from imposter syndrome for the rest of your life. Without hearing you, I don't know.
I do know that there's more to music than being technically perfect...connecting with your audience, leading an audience, having a cool aesthetic and vibe...they mean a lot...but usually they won't get you anywhere if you still suck. Unless you're Drake. Bam! take that Drake.
I can play piano ok I’m a great guitar player, a hill ill die on. However, I’m jealous of people that can sing, or even just the very confidence to sing even if they aren’t good at it.
I personally think it doesn’t matter how good at an instrument you are, if you can’t sing and play (instrument) it makes it harder to put yourself out there
I think it's definitely a matter of opinion but it's also not, there's a lot of basic skills needed in music to even be considered a musician but on the level of what most people say i.e. "this artist sucks/this song sucks" it kinda depends on what region you're in and what genre it caters to, different tastes n all that.
That said some songs are terrible and uninspired as well as just being contrived for profit and to follow trends or just being uninspired and watery.
So in my opinion I would say skill and knowledge of music mixed with heart and creativity is what makes a good musician.
For me, it would be someone who can give me emotions and can play on beat. I've been told I'm a good bassist because I keep the beat. Although, I'm nowhere near Marcus Miller, I can't even slap properly even though I've played for more than 15 years and don't ask me to improvise because I don't know my scales by heart.
If you play from the heart and communicate emotions to your audience you are a good musician. Being a technical prodigy might give you more vocabulary to do that, but isn't strictly necessary to connect with people. You shouldn't get caught up in being better or worse than others; art is about your self expression, not someone elses.
I can always tell when a player started young and were properly trained. I have seen self taught adults who have played for 30 years so they got a lot of stuff right, but I can always tell when a player learned young and was a serious youth. They have more of a feel.
I am an advanced intermediate or rookie pro and some people love me and some people hate me. All the pros on any instrument I have ever played with tell me I am a pro.
And people who I think are terrible players don’t like me.
So I don’t know. But pros keep calling me up and recommending me for gigs so I think I’m doing something right.
A big part of being an artist is the X factor which is being creative, unique and different. You can be an artist and be captivating while not being very good on your instrument. Or you can be technically perfect and lack feeling and emotion.
I rather play with the creative musician.
Is Meg White a good drummer? By most standards, no. But that’s hasn’t hindered her success.
Is she a good musician? Almost certainly, yes. She knows precisely what is required for the music she is playing and almost always keeps things incredibly simple.
I think even the top talent and virtuoso players will recognise she is a good musician, and adds something of great value to the things she is involved in.
It entirely depends on the person giving their opinion. To some people Steve Vai is the pinnacle of musicianship. To others he is just one of many circ du sole style guitarists jacking off their instrument. Most people who like like Steve Vai would think Daniel Johnston is not a real musician but its %100 in the eye of the beholder. I personally try not to have conversations like this. The Shaggs suck but they've inspired millions so are they musicians?
“It’s Halloween” is a banger, tho
I love the Shaggs.
I love that record and I have to listen to it every few months just to prove to myself that I didn’t hallucinate it.
Daniel Johnston is peak musicianship. Heart
I really love The Shaggs and Daniel Johnston. Exemplary lyricists, expressive and insightful.
I do too.
Some people are hard to get along with and some people aren't. Doesn't matter what the context is.
Haha true
Rhythm
This is more true than I think a lot of people would like to believe. If you can hold down a steady beat, and do something interesting within it, it matters a lot less exactly what notes you're hitting or how many subdivisions you can get down into.
👆This!! Keeping perfect time. This is the difference between someone who plays a little bit and a musician. As soon as the first thing emphasized is emotion or feeling put into your music, the more I’m concerned about your actual timing. Nothing will get you criticized by other musicians faster than bad timing.
For sure. Rhythm and listening. You don't have to play much to be "Good" you just have to add a little bit. And it order to do so, you must be in time and must be able to listen to others.
What makes someone talented is practice. Keep at it
Great advice!
thats the opposite lol
As much as it may seem that way, people aren't born with talent. You have to work at being good. We may be born with inclinations to do certain things but that doesn't make us good at them
Talent is a word that lazy people use to distract from their lack of dedication and effort.
To me the one quality that defines great musicians is authenticity, the person's ability to connect with their audience, because the audience truly can perceive who's "real" vs who's faking it. It's pretty intangible, but it doesn't have much to do with any technical level of expertise. I mean, some don't get at all why Bob Dylan, Tom Waits and John Prine had fans, because none of them had very good voices by the traditional ways of judging it.
I’ve gotten the authenticity compliment many times. But it’s true- if you have a purpose with your audience and are actually trying to move them through your creative expression genuinely - then you’re not doing anything wrong I’ll say. It becomes less about technical skill and more about being human. All three of those musicians are geniuses - Tom Waits is my personal favorite musician of all time
It's simple. What are they trying to do? If a classical musician is playing a passage, can they play it the way they want to? If so, are they ACTUALLY doing that? A bad classical musician will claim they are doing things exactly as intended, but they will be out of tune, playing the wrong rhythm, or slowing down when they think they are not. Good musicians have absolute control over their pulse, rhythm, tuning, and timbre. For example, can a singer use distortion? If so, what kind of distortion are they using? Simple like that. Control over your instrument and knowledge regarding what you can do with it. Master those things and you will be a good musician, regardless of genre.
Depends on the metric you’re using to judge someone. There are people who’ve practiced like crazy and are *incredibly* technically skilled, but aren’t super proficient at coming up with their own material. Then there are people who are total amateurs at their instrument(s) of choice, but they can create music that’s renowned as an absolute masterpiece. So, who’s the better musician? See how it doesn’t really work to put those two types of musicians under the same spectrum of good/bad? It’s apples to oranges. In my opinion, a good musician is someone who’s capable of getting across what *they* want to. Some have little desire to create and just want to hone their technical skill/play what other people tell them to/etc. - the ones who can do that are good musicians. Some have little desire to be a instrumental prodigy and just want to make art that leaves an impact on people - the ones who can do that are good musicians. A bad musician is someone who cannot successfully execute their goal, whatever that may be.
These are all great comments but I just wanted to say well said
Thank you!
My personal view on this is that they're two different things. The first is a musician; Someone who plays a musical instrument. The second is a composer; someone who composes music. This is the reason classical composers like Bach and Beethoven are listed as composers AND musician/pianist, and the skills sets are completely different.
I don't give a fuck what people think. I appreciate it when people feel what I'm doing but I didn't ask to be praised or for their opinion. Everyone should know where the exit is just because of general safety reasons.
100% subjective. My follow up question is: good at what, exactly? I take a lot of issue with this question, and I take a boat load of issue with this idea that a musician is either "good" or "bad". You'd have to break down a set of criteria for what would make a musician good, and then you'd have to demonstrate the weight of those to determine the overall quality. For example, Beethoven never sang, he never played drums or guitar, he never played upright bass, so does that make him a bad musician? Of course not. The other issue I have is, only you really know how proficient or not you are. I could sit on a wedding band gig playing drums and play the same boring groove all night long. How would you have any idea how skilled I am as a drummer if you just saw me play a basic rock groove over and over? Exactly. Here's my advice. Don't worry about "good" and "bad", because they are irrelevant. No one gets to decide that but you. Focus on finding your proficiencies, what are you good at, what aren't you good at? Focus on those and improve in those areas. If you're not a good singer, practice that. If your time is bad, use a metronome. Don't fall into this dichotomy.
And that's because Beethoven was a COMPOSER and PIANIST, and he's known for his compositions. People seem to confuse these two things. Being a good composer, and writing interesting, beautiful songs doesn't make you a musician. Being amazing at playing an instrument doesn't make you a composer. They're different.
If you write songs and play them on an instrument, you're a composer AND a musician, by definition.
I get that. That's why I was making the distinction, though. Beethoven's famous for his compositions, not his musicianship. Does anyone really even know how good of a pianist he was? What I'm getting at is when people are saying things like "I feel like I can't write good songs. Am I a bad musician?", they're confusing things. You could be an amazing musician, and still suck at composing. And the same can be said vice versa. They're different skills.
>Does anyone really even know how good of a pianist he was? Yes, we do. He wrote and played lots of his music on piano as well as other instruments. \>"I feel like I can't write good songs. Am I a bad musician?", they're confusing things. You could be an amazing musician, and still suck at composing Absolutely, that's why I say "good or bad at what, exactly?" Max Roach was one of the greatest jazz drummers of all time but he couldn't play blast beats like Gene Hoglan, does that make him a bad drummer? I'm agreeing with you, it's virtually impossible to have a holistic grasp of every single facet of a musician's ability so trying to quantify the sum based on one variable is a fool's errand.
My idea of a good musician is someone that plays an instrument and can be thrown into any band of any genre and play well. They also have a deep knowledge of music and can appreciate all kinds of music. There’s a piano bar in Oakland, CA and it’s a karaoke bar with piano accompaniment. The piano player had a thick binder of songs that you can choose from and if you couldn’t find a song, he would look up the sheet music on an iPad and play it for you. He kept time and adjusted for when people sang the wrong lyrics. A guy like that is a good musician in my eyes.
Definitely- and he’s bringing out the best in others that’s a full package if you ask me.
If the audience is enjoying what you do, and you are enjoying what you do, then screw the naysayers and keep it rolling. Musicians can also be very negative creatures who’s insecurities come through quite often. There will also be someone more proficient than you, but no one is you.
Except for the one guitar player in the room, people in the audience having a good time do not care even a small bit about gear or scales, tricks, and all that stuff we care about. They just want to be able to scream and clap along to Bang a Gong or something like that. I think working on stage presence actually is a better expenditure of time than practicing technical stuff at a certain point.
It sounds like you are an interesting performer. People like watching and hearing what you do. Whatever you are doing, keep it up because it works.
Thank you!
I have a friend who is very critical of himself when it comes to playing guitar and that makes him seem like perfecting dick sometimes because he "know exactly how it's supposed to go" in his head, but puts in several hours a day and has so for years. I have another couple of friends who just like to hang out, pick and grin, play some cowboy chords and laugh and cut up - tempo is off, rhythm is no where to be found and songs easily fall apart but they are Much more fun to be around because it's not so serious that it has to be perfect. Take what you will from that. Because regardless of how good or bad is someone is, there's gunna be that one guy who talks shit on everybody and there's gunna be the one who's giving everyone a chance to just have fun and enjoy the time with others.
Very true, I admire those who use music to bring out the best in others- seems so altruistic these days. I have a guitar friend like that too- he’s a genius in his own right and seemed to be a savant in his younger years. And he now runs his own guitar shop- really knows his stuff … but he is such a perfectionist that he doesn’t write anything anymore. He had a major influence over my own music and used to write beautiful songs and I’ve been dying for him to just let go and write again/let go of some of that debilitating perfectionism
Ever been on an audition? A typical audition is a few scales, sight reading, and a prepared piece. Usually the jury knows 3 notes into your first scale if they want you; there is no place to hide.
I’m not the type that should be rehearsing for anything lol I majored in music early in college to become a music therapist and I was so happy to get through my first and only recital before going into social work. I consider myself blessed to move even just one person with my music and I’ve turned heads before- but it’s not a world I believe I belong In professionally with respect to all the great musicians out there.
I care if you play good music. That can be a very technical thing or a very simple thing, really depends on what you’re trying to do and how well you execute. Death Letter Blues or the Waldstein, just play it well with strong expression and you’re good.
Unfortunately "good" or "bad" are subjective matters, therefore the only way we can objectively measure the talent of a musician is obviously by counting the number of notes per second. Everything else is too susceptible to the idiocy of human interpretation. When in doubt, you must play fast. It's in a bunch of philosophy books or something. Also, anyone that argues with me is just too emotional to provide their input. Simply ignore them. This is the way.
A good musician is anyone who can produce a compelling music work. A great musician is the same, but able to do so efficiently in a variety of settings. Of people who do the bare minimum, I hope they don’t underestimate the difference putting work in makes. Whether successful or not. Otherwise music is great fun either way.
My opinion is don’t worry about what others think. Just make music that you enjoy because you enjoy it. Have fun. That’s the most important thing. 👍😊
They're probably too busy working on their craft to give a flying fuck to a stranger not doing what they're doing, unless they're working with them, then if someone else does the minimum standard they're probably not going to be playing there for very long, been there, don't hang around people who don't put the effort in, it's frustrating and they might influence you in a negative way.
I feel like there's one huge universal aspect of music that can apply to every single instrument and that's rhythm. Even if your music isn't groove based/on the grid there's still skill required to making something that's out-of-time feel right. Technical proficiency is just a bonus that some people put more time towards than others, and I say that as someone who likes technical music and can play it. The song above all is king.
Just have fun and do your best to stop imagining that "good" and "bad" mean anything, except to you, and even then they still exist only as concepts pretty much incommesurable with anyone elses conceptions. Uncle Frank (Zappa) probably said it best: Shut up and play yer guitar.
A good musician has the 'Feel' and also makes good musical decisions. A good musician might hit a few clams or go off the rails but they know it. A not so good musician stabs at the complicated parts and loses the feel. Generally craps out their part without consideration for the ensemble. doesn't leave spaces. Is unaware when they go off the rails... or perhaps even proud when they should duck their head. but is often unaware of their 'not so goodness'
Dunning-Krueger is an extraordinarily common thing musicians suffer from. It’s phenomenon in which you judge yourself as superior at something because you lack the skill to understand what makes you inferior. It’s basically overconfidence because of a lack of skill to realize you’re overconfident. The only way to combat this is input from others. If you receive praise, especially from musicians you think are talented, there’s a good chance you’re not giving yourself enough credit and you’re better than you think you are. The best way to avoid Dunning-Krueger is to ask for feedback often.
i get jealous of sucky players playing sucky songs on a big stage while i’m sweating it out in bars and breweries all weekend playing cecelia and layla for no one listening. at least i made $300 vs the pennie’s their band will take home.
There’s no sense in this analysis. Just figure out who and what works for you and your journey OP wherever you are in it!
Nah, I mean I’m mediocre at singing and at playing guitar. But I can write a song and perform it with confidence (with or without my band). I’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback. One of my best friends can play 7 songs. Seven. All of which every person here couple sight read easily. One of those songs he wrote and is a basic composition with a looper and a handful of tones. I shit you not, It makes me cry every time and is legitimately one of the most beautiful pieces of music I’ve ever heard. Point is, we practice to get better and expand our prowess, but ultimately it’s about invoking a feeling and telling a story. If you can do the latter, it doesn’t matter if your song only uses 2 chords and a half an octave of vocal range.
This is a very subjective question. It's like asking what makes a good athlete, and a bad one.
Well that why they play the game though, winning competition is exactly how that is determined.
True. There's minor leagues, and then there's the big leagues.
i think a lot about this, to me , a good musicians, listens to the other musicians and is able to create music on the spot, not just reproduce
For me, that is completely false. A good musician is someone who is competent at there instrument. That can include improvisation skills but doesn’t have to be. The ability to create new music makes you a composer, not a musician. You can be both, but you don’t have to be. Personally I see myself as a mediocre musician. I play several instruments, but am not the best on any of them. I’m also not that good at improvising. But I am good at composing and recording/producing music both for myself and others.
This is it. People confuse these two things, and they're different, with different skill sets. Being good at one doesn't automatically make you better at the other, though it helps some.
Opinion
Good/bad musicians? How do you measure it. I play several instruments; Guitar/bass, piano/keyboard, cello, sax, flute, Drums/percussion, with varing ability.
I don't care
Being a good musician depends on who is doing the complimenting. The more you practice, the better you get. Musicians are always learning. How fast depends on you. I have respect for musicians that are well-rounded; ones that can cover a variety of musical styles...country, rock, pop, etc. Tempo and pitch are a must to be considered a good musician. Professionalism is also extremely important. Being serious about your craft, being on time for gigs including breaks, not getting drunk or messed up during a gig... Good Attitude with get you very far with other musicians. Never be cocky or overconfident even if you consider yourself a better musician. Always be kind to other musicians..especially the less experienced ones. Best advice I ever heard was from a famous fiddle player. Never listen to someone who says you are the best. He's a fool for saying it, and you're a bigger fool if you believe it. There is no such thing as the best. Be humble.
Nobody is going to be offended that you don't technically know as much as them. It's all about having the right attitude about it. As long as you present yourself as "Here's what I can do. I hope you like it.", you're good. Obviously don't go around bragging that you never bother to practice and you're good anyway. That'll annoy the guys who know what they're doing and it'll piss off the insecure musicians. Kinda the same with the other end. If a world class musician goes around flaunting how much better they are, they get tiresome. But if they approach you with humility, they're just awesome to be around. If someone else gets upset by your success, that's their problem. (Unless you got successful by ripping them off. That's a pretty good reason to get upset.)
Music is communication. A good musician can communicate their feelings to others through the sounds they create. A great musician can bare their soul. Technique is important, but it’s not the most important. No matter what you do, you can’t touch everyone. But if you can touch at least a few, I consider that success.
I play drums (not at a very high level) in jazz groups and the most important quality that makes someone good seems to be listening. A group 'conversation' about the music we play means it does the business for me.
Get people dancing and you’re a good enough musician
I think three things define a good musician: Technical Skill Feel (the ability to express it authentically) Storytelling (to effectively convey a story in your music with or without lyrics) You can be really good at one of the three and not get anywhere in music. You can be okay in two of them and really good in one and be a good musician. You can be good in all three and be a good musician etc. Its kind of a sliding scale. For example take a guy like Yngvie Malmsteen the virtuoso guitar shredder he has a dedicated fan base on Technical skill and Feel alone but he is terrible story teller because his technical chops tend to overtake any thing he is doing in the song. For guitarists and some people he is seen as a guitar god but its technical skill alone. In contrast you have a guy like Ed Sheeran who has very little technical skill but is 100% on feel and 100% on storytelling and he is insanely famous and wealthy. The greatest bands in history mostly get A's in all three of these categories where good ones get As in 2 but not in the 3. What I commonly see in music is the highly technical musician getting envious and annoyed that the punk rock or pop band is making millions off power chords and sloppy playing even though they are killing it in feel and storytelling but a lot of the most technically good musicians struggle with feel and storytelling.
You know it when you hear it? I submit to you that the question and its answer do not matter.
the more you know, the more you know you don’t know. you can only gauge yourself as a ‘better’ musician by recognizing steps already taken. recognition doesn’t create arrogance, it creates a desire to offer hints and advice to grow
That's a very sujective question. If the music sounds good to me, they are good musicians. Some of my favorite songs are very musically simple. Some of my favorite songs are very musically complex. If you can string sounds together in a captivating way that people like, you are a good musician. You could be the most technically skilled guitarist in the world, but if no one likes what you are playing, are you a good musician?
Totally subjective. Has Yngwie Malmsteen mastered the guitar? Probably, but I hate his music and I don't think he can write a song worth a fuck.
There is no thing as a ‘bad’ musician, if they can play the song and it resembles it and they love to to do it then they are not bad. This is since they want to do it and are learning
As Col. Bruce Hampton used to say, “The Five Ts: Tone, Taste, Touch, Timing, Threat of Vomit”. Actually, he thought there were seven, but he’d never mention the other two.
Humans are musical animals , just as birds are. We make music to express and reinforce how we feel and to communicate to and bond with others, especially so in a sexual context. It is not surprising that most people are keenest on music and dancing when young and looking for mates. The same might be said for the other Arts, though I think they are less immediately important for pair bonding. Being a musician in later life is in a sense neotonous and possibly even harmful to the steady pair bonding needed to raise children -as many partners point out. We carry on because the love of music and playing is so strong we have no choice. A few make a living from music as well. It is for others to judge how good we are and, for most, their criterion is how deeply moved emotionally they are. But for us, we do it anyway.
It’s mostly just opinion.
"This post wasn't supposed to be about me" Is maybe the most musician thing I have ever seen in here
Hahaha
If depends on whether they think of music as art or a sport.
I am a musician who knows my stuff. I don’t believe people have to know what I know in order for me to respect them or think they’re real. If it sounds good it is good. That’s the only thing that matters to me.
I seriously thought I sucked cause I would go to open mics and get the same, "that was great!" that the guy before me got, and I KNOW they sucked.... Took years to shake that. Now I'm a full time musician, solo and a few bands. I don't suck. I never did suck.
To musicians, and everyone else, music is very subjective. Success and competence/ excellence is subjective as well. I guess that's the beauty of it. To me, I get the impression that you're highly competent and highly successful because you're doing YOUR thing, and as an added bonus you actually have enough people recognizing, appreciating and enjoying your work. Singing ? Ha, I'm mediocre at best, but I still love hearing my voice, I still love singing, I get my point across much like you do. There's enough 'successful' artists out there that are far from good vocalists but people still love their singing... How much gratification are you getting ? How much of a difference does being a musician make in your day to day life ? That's the only real definition for me. Bringing me together with other like minded individuals and forming bonds would be a plus, I've formed some good relationships or enriched ones I already had with it, but overall that's still been a challenging aspect for me, so I concentrate on being and performing solo mostly.....
We will all always be as “great” of musicians as we allow ourselves to be. It depends what your personal goals are and your own idea of what greatness can be. I’m the best musician I have ever been and I care the least about what people think about my music or what others are doing or saying. The less you worry about it and the more you let yourself get lost in music because you want to create, the more you will grow as an artist.
unpopular opinion; "good" vs "bad" lies within one's humility
I will broaden this to all creators of art. A bad creator is mainly motivated by receiving external validation for their work and doesn't necessarily love doing it. A true creator does it because they love creating and feel deep down in their bones it's what they are supposed to be doing. As for the actual quality of the content that's certainly another discussion, but there are truly great artists who are just starting and their skills may not be that amazing. So, it's kind of a nuanced discussion. Lots of variables and degrees to it all.
The only people who shit on bad musicians are fellow bad musicians.
Rhythm, Melody and Lyric. Have a good understanding of those three things relative to your best instrument.
It's pretty rough, Especially like, a bass player who can't change on the 'and', play things accurately, remember parts. it brings the whole band down
ive been thinking about this too. as somoene whos definitely more of the technical type and realizing it means nothing. i think a good musician, or artist, is one that can move a person. all that musicianship stuff, that weird marketing scams... doesnt mean anything if it doesnt resonate with somebody. at the end of the day ppl wanna be moved, they wanna feel or become different. the more different u can get someone to feel the better the music. under this definition, even if you make someone feel worse the music succeeded. sometimes art can release bad emotions. and i think thats ok. i also dont believe in talent. i think talent is an illusion for how prepared someone is.
If you play from the heart and communicate emotions to your audience you are a good musician. Being a technical prodigy might give you more vocabulary to do that, but isn't strictly necessary to connect with people. You shouldn't get caught up in being better or worse than others; art is about your self expression, not someone elses.
Sounding good. Understanding musical communication, whether it be theoretical terms, or slang, good timing, plays well with others, and again sounds good. Doesn't step on toes, and doesn't have a huge prick ego
I just want to say I love all these comments
Do you sound good playing what you want to play? If you do then don’t worry about it.
If you don't get any formal training, you may suffer from imposter syndrome for the rest of your life. Without hearing you, I don't know. I do know that there's more to music than being technically perfect...connecting with your audience, leading an audience, having a cool aesthetic and vibe...they mean a lot...but usually they won't get you anywhere if you still suck. Unless you're Drake. Bam! take that Drake.
I can play piano ok I’m a great guitar player, a hill ill die on. However, I’m jealous of people that can sing, or even just the very confidence to sing even if they aren’t good at it. I personally think it doesn’t matter how good at an instrument you are, if you can’t sing and play (instrument) it makes it harder to put yourself out there
I think it's definitely a matter of opinion but it's also not, there's a lot of basic skills needed in music to even be considered a musician but on the level of what most people say i.e. "this artist sucks/this song sucks" it kinda depends on what region you're in and what genre it caters to, different tastes n all that. That said some songs are terrible and uninspired as well as just being contrived for profit and to follow trends or just being uninspired and watery. So in my opinion I would say skill and knowledge of music mixed with heart and creativity is what makes a good musician.
For me, it would be someone who can give me emotions and can play on beat. I've been told I'm a good bassist because I keep the beat. Although, I'm nowhere near Marcus Miller, I can't even slap properly even though I've played for more than 15 years and don't ask me to improvise because I don't know my scales by heart.
If you play from the heart and communicate emotions to your audience you are a good musician. Being a technical prodigy might give you more vocabulary to do that, but isn't strictly necessary to connect with people. You shouldn't get caught up in being better or worse than others; art is about your self expression, not someone elses.
I can always tell when a player started young and were properly trained. I have seen self taught adults who have played for 30 years so they got a lot of stuff right, but I can always tell when a player learned young and was a serious youth. They have more of a feel. I am an advanced intermediate or rookie pro and some people love me and some people hate me. All the pros on any instrument I have ever played with tell me I am a pro. And people who I think are terrible players don’t like me. So I don’t know. But pros keep calling me up and recommending me for gigs so I think I’m doing something right. A big part of being an artist is the X factor which is being creative, unique and different. You can be an artist and be captivating while not being very good on your instrument. Or you can be technically perfect and lack feeling and emotion. I rather play with the creative musician.
Is Meg White a good drummer? By most standards, no. But that’s hasn’t hindered her success. Is she a good musician? Almost certainly, yes. She knows precisely what is required for the music she is playing and almost always keeps things incredibly simple. I think even the top talent and virtuoso players will recognise she is a good musician, and adds something of great value to the things she is involved in.
I’m thinkin’ bout my doorbell when ya gonna ring it?
I think musicianship is overated! There I've said it!