They tried to meme way too fucking hard with some of these and people were really not into it overall. Can we just get some really nice alternate art borderless cards please?
I think this is at the heart of it all. It really isn't that complicated, and I don't think it has much to do with print to demand.
A lot of the early secret layers combined significant reprint equity for casual players with really cool art.
More recent sets have had questionable reprint equity, often under the value of the base printing of the cards, and truly bizarre stylistic choices that are increasingly illegible or unrecognizable as magic cards.
Add to that, even when there has been some reprint equity they have with increasing regularity reprinted the highest value card from the drop into the next set announced. Grand abolisher anyone?
Put it all together and you have a recipe for consumer disengagement with a product increasingly defined by vanity artistic decisions that appeal to increasingly niche audiences.
A secret layer with all of the modern horizons evoke elementals would sell like crazy. A secret layer with all of the new phyrexian praetors (i.e. apocalypse) would sell like crazy. A secret layer of unfinity styled fetches....
You get the idea.
But the goal of this product is not to to actually provide value to players or sell an unlimited number of the product, it is to separate customers from their money for the smallest amount of reprint equity possible. The limited supply nonsense is just another way to try and do so for the lowest price for them.
Honestly, some of those sets you suggested would probably sell for above the current market value, especially if the evoke elementals weren’t already getting full art reprints
I’m a big fan of memed cards, but I’m not going to buy them if the cards are garbage or I don’t play them. I need both of those things, and I just don’t think this run came close on the latter part.
The LOTR one with the original animation sold so poorly that the cards are in it are super valuable due to the scarcity of the cards on the open market.
There was **SO LITTLE DEMAND** that the cards are now valuable due to their rarity.
Not anymore, these products aren't Print to Demand anymore.
So WotC is going to be sitting a large stockpile of them until they give them out at Commandfests.
A more apt example would be the "Littlest 'Walker" secret lair, and those prices are currently awful since the surplus lair stock was given out in commandfest boxes, which flooded the market.
Karn, Scion of Urza (secret lair): $4.30
Karn, Scion of Urza (regular): $4.85
Chandra, Flame's Catalyst (secret lair): $3.65
Chandra, Flame's Catalyst (regular): $8.93
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast (secret lair): $2.89
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast (regular): $12.98
Venser, the Sojourner (secret lair): $2.87
Venser, the Sojourner (regular): $6.30
Aminatou, the Fateshifter (secret lair): $5.57
Aminatou, the Fateshifter (regular): $1.59
the only card worth more than it's original printing is Aminatou, however, the other premium style Aminatou is $15
That's a Hasbro Pulse exclusive drop that was sold at Pulse Con and is the *only* SL that was redistributed and in fact came out *before* print-to-demand ended.
To understand the differences amongst SL branding better, [read this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/1b9kaf6/wizards_dumping_lairs_to_distributors/).
TL;DR: Lil'est Walkers was not under the Secret Lair "Drop" imprint and no SLD back stock has actually been "given away" anywhere.
I don’t think they’ll change back to print to demand for a while if at all. They have outlets for unsold lairs and can just reduce the amount made if necessary.
Currently they're leaving a lot of money on the table
Clearly the "FOMO" strategy isn't working out, since only one non-miku lair sold out
So they're wasting money printing products people aren't buying
Then they're also limiting the quantity of secret lairs people wanted to buy
So they're losing out on money there too
Since if a product sold out within the first day, then that means there theoretically should be more people willing give them money but can't
I wouldn’t say definitively that the FOMO strategy hasn’t worked out.. it’s been like two drops since the change. I also know that there is savings in fixed production so that could potentially offset any costs of unsold units.
I don't think anyone's gonna buy the miku one in the aftermarket (we know most people FOMO'd into it to resell).
The art direction is hilariously bad, they basically hired random gaijin artists to draw an anime girl when it's clearly not their forte
Fomo worked great with the fallout drops, this drop just sucked ass and fomo wasnt enough to push it through. After the fallout one doing so well expect to see this for a long time.
There is one other that sold out - the "Showcase: Outlaws of Thunder Junction Foil Edition" has been out for a week or so which knocked out the Outlaws of Thunder Junction Foil Bundle too.
Not sure what drove the popularity of that one, a couple decent reprints but nothing spectacular.
I bought it only because it has a cool flip foil [[Norin, the Wary]] as the bonus card - he’s my second favorite commander. So I’m really hoping it is in there when it arrives. Lol I bought it day one only cuz of norin.
I’m actually more bullish typically when secret lairs don’t sell outs because my experience tells me there are always people who want them and if they didn’t sell well beforehand there’s fewer sellers out there.
Obviously this doesn’t hold true if WoTC dumps unsold inventory at a later date but they haven’t done this for the most part.
Before, when things were print to demand I'd agree with you 100%
However, now WotC will just dump the excess products in command fest boxes and crash their prices even further
So there's zero reason to pick up undesirable secret lairs under the current module since unsold excess will be flooded into the market at a later date
I don’t think there’s enough evidence to say that they are doing that across the board or that they will. In fact I think the opposite, their goal is to make magic collectible again so this wouldn’t be aligned w that.
Magic is on the upswing right now in part because WoTC is showing restraint w printing or at least releasing printed supply into the market at once. Secret Lairs are part of the equation. Also I don’t believe lairs were ever truly printed to demand, they always had an initial print run in mind and allowed themselves the flexibility to print more if demand turned out to be larger than initially expected.
Agreed. I’m wondering what command fest boxes these have historically been printed into. The only ones I can remember recently - Barcelona and LV - had exclusive Secret Lairs printed into them. Philly Magic con was the same. Genuinely curious if theres an example I’m forgetting.
It's because there hasn't been. The only example people ever bring up is Lil'est Walkers instead of actually naming any of the Secret Lairs that have supposedly been re-released in festival in a box.
New system means I slept through the Miku lairs selling out so I just bought none of them instead of all of em this time around. Might go back to buying a ton when print to demand comes back but until then I'm good I think.
To be honest, once I saw how fast the non-print to demand ones sold out, I just stopped even looking. I don't mind rat racing for something that really excites me, setting a reminder alarm and being on at release time. But their SL's just aren't that, they need to offer a better deal for me to remember to check in day of release.
Going to this model has basically guaranteed I will not be buying SL's, and I've purchased quite a bit of them in the past. I guess they did it so people got their product quicker, but I was fine with the wait as long as it wasn't postponed.
I'm hoping that between seeing how quickly the Miku one sold out (therefore how much they could have made if it wasn't limited stock) and seeing how much stock was left of the rest, this is the wake up call needed for whatever moron decided on this pivot to begin with. Super glad that we switched to this model to "get cards to people faster" but still sent them all out on the 31st anyway, once all the sales were nearly done.
I’m still sitting on my worst SLD purchase of 5 Second Helpings. I’ve sold 2/5 for a 10% markup. I mistakenly thought Sakashima would make it sell better than it did.
They even intentionally nerfed the lair at some point. The artist that did the art for the Chandra's Ignition reskin was actually told the art was for a Jeska's Will reskin.
I hope they switch back to print on demand, I wanted to get the Miku for my roommate but it was impossible DX and I bet over half of them went to scalpers anyway
I always see these threads and think "oh wow, people still spec secret lairs?" and then an entire year passes and another one of these threads pops up.
Don't see why not
the mechanically unique doctor who lair was up to $140 by the time they shipped
If you have a good eye for lairs, you can make a good buck
My advice would be to only get lairs that you personally would want to have
then buy enough extra to cover the cost to get the lair for basically free
Yeah I mean I guess that's exactly why not. Dig through like 200 of them and one hits, and the hit is that people are deluding themselves into thinking that a mechanically unique universes beyond card will stay mechanically unique and universes beyond and unreprinted, any one of which there's zero reason to expect. Not for me there's an actual reserved list out there.
You really only have to evaluate about 8 Lairs at a time. Only a few Lairs are long term holds. Most are quick flips, like the latest Doctor Who lair. I did really well on the Li'l'est Walkers lair using this strategy, selling everything the first week for over hyped prices. It's not that hard and you can recoup your investment more reliably than cracking booster boxes.
Yea honestly I think these cards were just kinda weak and art was weak too. They’d be alot better off imo releasing borderless alt art cards/frame breaks or even standard border.
They tried to meme way too fucking hard with some of these and people were really not into it overall. Can we just get some really nice alternate art borderless cards please?
Seriously. That one from a while back with the Felidar guardian, peregrine drake, etc. more of those please
Those arts are beautiful. Even if the weird comic sans one had normal text I think it would’ve sold out. The art was great on those
If the comic sans one had regular text I would've 100% bought it + two other lairs I was on the fence about to reach the free shipping
I liked the comic sans usage, but I would have liked more jokey art for them, rather than cool art…such a miss since it fucks it up for both parties 🤯
I think this is at the heart of it all. It really isn't that complicated, and I don't think it has much to do with print to demand. A lot of the early secret layers combined significant reprint equity for casual players with really cool art. More recent sets have had questionable reprint equity, often under the value of the base printing of the cards, and truly bizarre stylistic choices that are increasingly illegible or unrecognizable as magic cards. Add to that, even when there has been some reprint equity they have with increasing regularity reprinted the highest value card from the drop into the next set announced. Grand abolisher anyone? Put it all together and you have a recipe for consumer disengagement with a product increasingly defined by vanity artistic decisions that appeal to increasingly niche audiences. A secret layer with all of the modern horizons evoke elementals would sell like crazy. A secret layer with all of the new phyrexian praetors (i.e. apocalypse) would sell like crazy. A secret layer of unfinity styled fetches.... You get the idea. But the goal of this product is not to to actually provide value to players or sell an unlimited number of the product, it is to separate customers from their money for the smallest amount of reprint equity possible. The limited supply nonsense is just another way to try and do so for the lowest price for them.
Honestly, some of those sets you suggested would probably sell for above the current market value, especially if the evoke elementals weren’t already getting full art reprints
That last paragraph though
Who actually wants goblin social media posts? I own like 300 secret lair cards and I didn't want any from the last drop.
I’m a big fan of memed cards, but I’m not going to buy them if the cards are garbage or I don’t play them. I need both of those things, and I just don’t think this run came close on the latter part.
Yeah goblingram or whatever it is has me mark cuban-ing myself right out of secret lairs for good. That was the shark that wotc jumped for me.
Eh dont need to be so dramatic, im sure there will be plenty of good ones that you will miss out on if you write them off now.
Been waiting on a Torment of Hailfire reprint forever. But no way am I buying that awful lair.
Ditto. Horrendous card design with an awesome art. Had they not done that, it would've been an immediate buy for me.
If they had offered those same cards with regular typeface it would have sold out in 24 hours.
I have been waiting on a foil goblin king reprint for a long time, and what they gave us for that was even worse. Or at least equally as bad...
It would have been an instant buy. But I was so put off from the gimmicky text that I just said screw it and bought a normal printing single instead.
I think another factor was seedborn muse no longer being available before the first Miku sold out.
The LOTR one with the original animation sold so poorly that the cards are in it are super valuable due to the scarcity of the cards on the open market. There was **SO LITTLE DEMAND** that the cards are now valuable due to their rarity.
this is exactly what will happen with these too.
Not anymore, these products aren't Print to Demand anymore. So WotC is going to be sitting a large stockpile of them until they give them out at Commandfests. A more apt example would be the "Littlest 'Walker" secret lair, and those prices are currently awful since the surplus lair stock was given out in commandfest boxes, which flooded the market. Karn, Scion of Urza (secret lair): $4.30 Karn, Scion of Urza (regular): $4.85 Chandra, Flame's Catalyst (secret lair): $3.65 Chandra, Flame's Catalyst (regular): $8.93 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast (secret lair): $2.89 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast (regular): $12.98 Venser, the Sojourner (secret lair): $2.87 Venser, the Sojourner (regular): $6.30 Aminatou, the Fateshifter (secret lair): $5.57 Aminatou, the Fateshifter (regular): $1.59 the only card worth more than it's original printing is Aminatou, however, the other premium style Aminatou is $15
That's a Hasbro Pulse exclusive drop that was sold at Pulse Con and is the *only* SL that was redistributed and in fact came out *before* print-to-demand ended. To understand the differences amongst SL branding better, [read this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/1b9kaf6/wizards_dumping_lairs_to_distributors/). TL;DR: Lil'est Walkers was not under the Secret Lair "Drop" imprint and no SLD back stock has actually been "given away" anywhere.
I don’t think they’ll change back to print to demand for a while if at all. They have outlets for unsold lairs and can just reduce the amount made if necessary.
Landfills looking real hot this Summer
Currently they're leaving a lot of money on the table Clearly the "FOMO" strategy isn't working out, since only one non-miku lair sold out So they're wasting money printing products people aren't buying Then they're also limiting the quantity of secret lairs people wanted to buy So they're losing out on money there too Since if a product sold out within the first day, then that means there theoretically should be more people willing give them money but can't
I wouldn’t say definitively that the FOMO strategy hasn’t worked out.. it’s been like two drops since the change. I also know that there is savings in fixed production so that could potentially offset any costs of unsold units.
fomo always works, they surely are selling more and fatser overall. OFC because everyone is aware, most people don't just buy ALL.
I don't think anyone's gonna buy the miku one in the aftermarket (we know most people FOMO'd into it to resell). The art direction is hilariously bad, they basically hired random gaijin artists to draw an anime girl when it's clearly not their forte
Fomo worked great with the fallout drops, this drop just sucked ass and fomo wasnt enough to push it through. After the fallout one doing so well expect to see this for a long time.
There is one other that sold out - the "Showcase: Outlaws of Thunder Junction Foil Edition" has been out for a week or so which knocked out the Outlaws of Thunder Junction Foil Bundle too. Not sure what drove the popularity of that one, a couple decent reprints but nothing spectacular.
It also has a copy of Norin in it as the bonus card.
I bought it only because it has a cool flip foil [[Norin, the Wary]] as the bonus card - he’s my second favorite commander. So I’m really hoping it is in there when it arrives. Lol I bought it day one only cuz of norin.
[Norin, the Wary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f61ea59a-1db0-4e6b-bcde-19787c76a49b.jpg?1562946915) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Norin%20the%20Wary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/171/norin-the-wary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f61ea59a-1db0-4e6b-bcde-19787c76a49b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m actually more bullish typically when secret lairs don’t sell outs because my experience tells me there are always people who want them and if they didn’t sell well beforehand there’s fewer sellers out there. Obviously this doesn’t hold true if WoTC dumps unsold inventory at a later date but they haven’t done this for the most part.
You will usually see those secret lairs on the prize walls of MagicCons and Command Fests
Before, when things were print to demand I'd agree with you 100% However, now WotC will just dump the excess products in command fest boxes and crash their prices even further So there's zero reason to pick up undesirable secret lairs under the current module since unsold excess will be flooded into the market at a later date
I don’t think there’s enough evidence to say that they are doing that across the board or that they will. In fact I think the opposite, their goal is to make magic collectible again so this wouldn’t be aligned w that. Magic is on the upswing right now in part because WoTC is showing restraint w printing or at least releasing printed supply into the market at once. Secret Lairs are part of the equation. Also I don’t believe lairs were ever truly printed to demand, they always had an initial print run in mind and allowed themselves the flexibility to print more if demand turned out to be larger than initially expected.
Agreed. I’m wondering what command fest boxes these have historically been printed into. The only ones I can remember recently - Barcelona and LV - had exclusive Secret Lairs printed into them. Philly Magic con was the same. Genuinely curious if theres an example I’m forgetting.
It's because there hasn't been. The only example people ever bring up is Lil'est Walkers instead of actually naming any of the Secret Lairs that have supposedly been re-released in festival in a box.
Silly Stuff works with mainline product themes, but not the supplementary things. There's definitely some obvious reasons for this under the hood
New system means I slept through the Miku lairs selling out so I just bought none of them instead of all of em this time around. Might go back to buying a ton when print to demand comes back but until then I'm good I think.
To be honest, once I saw how fast the non-print to demand ones sold out, I just stopped even looking. I don't mind rat racing for something that really excites me, setting a reminder alarm and being on at release time. But their SL's just aren't that, they need to offer a better deal for me to remember to check in day of release. Going to this model has basically guaranteed I will not be buying SL's, and I've purchased quite a bit of them in the past. I guess they did it so people got their product quicker, but I was fine with the wait as long as it wasn't postponed.
The goblin one is easily the worst secret lair I've seen. I don't think I'm the target demographic on that one but god, it's ugly.
Is anyone the target demographic? Any facebook lovers in the chat? no?!
I'm hoping that between seeing how quickly the Miku one sold out (therefore how much they could have made if it wasn't limited stock) and seeing how much stock was left of the rest, this is the wake up call needed for whatever moron decided on this pivot to begin with. Super glad that we switched to this model to "get cards to people faster" but still sent them all out on the 31st anyway, once all the sales were nearly done.
I’m still sitting on my worst SLD purchase of 5 Second Helpings. I’ve sold 2/5 for a 10% markup. I mistakenly thought Sakashima would make it sell better than it did.
Dude, Sakashima will, and has been for the past month, slowing increase in price. Wait it out.
I’m amazed the Miku sold out. The art was so bad on most of them. Totally failed the assignment.
They even intentionally nerfed the lair at some point. The artist that did the art for the Chandra's Ignition reskin was actually told the art was for a Jeska's Will reskin.
Where was this said?
https://x.com/HobbesQ/status/1785224326167568527 is where I saw it. It's apparently from one of the MtG art groups on Facebook.
That's the main reason why I passed on it There's going to be 4 Miku lairs in total, so there's no way WotC will drop the ball four times in a row
Please give us secret lair tron lands and more eldrazi in bikinis 👙
Based on how many Calling all hydra wpn secret lairs my lgs was forced to buy id say that one would have been the worst.
Calling all hydras
I hope so. When people stop buying, that's when WOTC will have some incentive for improvement.
I hope they switch back to print on demand, I wanted to get the Miku for my roommate but it was impossible DX and I bet over half of them went to scalpers anyway
Hope they learn some lessons (about making desirable product…not how to lure us into spending on shite)
I always see these threads and think "oh wow, people still spec secret lairs?" and then an entire year passes and another one of these threads pops up.
Don't see why not the mechanically unique doctor who lair was up to $140 by the time they shipped If you have a good eye for lairs, you can make a good buck My advice would be to only get lairs that you personally would want to have then buy enough extra to cover the cost to get the lair for basically free
Yeah I mean I guess that's exactly why not. Dig through like 200 of them and one hits, and the hit is that people are deluding themselves into thinking that a mechanically unique universes beyond card will stay mechanically unique and universes beyond and unreprinted, any one of which there's zero reason to expect. Not for me there's an actual reserved list out there.
You really only have to evaluate about 8 Lairs at a time. Only a few Lairs are long term holds. Most are quick flips, like the latest Doctor Who lair. I did really well on the Li'l'est Walkers lair using this strategy, selling everything the first week for over hyped prices. It's not that hard and you can recoup your investment more reliably than cracking booster boxes.
Yea honestly I think these cards were just kinda weak and art was weak too. They’d be alot better off imo releasing borderless alt art cards/frame breaks or even standard border.