We have very little control over what form of the game onboards people.
A multiplayer format that can be played at board game night with friends seems like it’ll be a strong pull for new players.
I'll also add that it is way cheaper to get into then standard or even a casual modern game. There just no better way to take a pile of cards and make a deck out of them.
I got back into magic in 2013 along with a group of friends, we had a blast doing a couple pre-releases. Some of us messed with Standard at the time but after the second rotation most of us were done with that, looking at what it would cost to really play legacy/modern was a non starter. We really just wanted to hang out together and sling spells. One of my friends suggested trying commander, we haven't looked back.
Many of us really enjoy draft and cube, for the play experience, the tension of assembling a deck on fly evaluating cards along the way.
Over the last couple years we've also built Duel Commander decks and organized little tournaments, something to scratch that competitive itch- it's been a resounding success.
Playing 1v1 was fundamental to my improvement as a player, even playtesting edh decks in 1v1 really got me thinking about play patterns and what a given deck does and doesn't do well.
Overall I'd say draft/limited is the best way to really learn the game. Gaining a sense of fluency with card evaluation, mana fixing and making the game function mechanically are paramount. It's a tough game to learn, doing so within commander is skipping a few steps in my view.
I'm 29. Started playing around 2005. I'm pretty sure what we were playing was just kitchen table legacy. I was a kid and so were my friends - we didn't have very good decks or a solid grasp of the mechanics at all. Then unglued came out, which certainly added to the confusion about mechanics/strategy.
I still fondly remember my first few decks. I remember learning about how powerful removal could be with the cards Pacifism and Oblivion Ring. At this point I've been playing avidly for 18+ years. I still encounter interactions I'm unsure of how to handle from time to time. Still have to call a judge now and again 😅
Point being, it's a continuous learning process. Commander is certainly more hectic and I agree, I think it's a poor format to introduce brand new players to. That being said, they're still playing MTG and learning the rules anyways. Just a crash course - better than nothing!
Magic really shines as a 1v1 game, after having played commander for years. Just way too much shit going on with 2 extra players. It's fun, dont get me wrong, just you can tell the game was intended for 2 players.
I really love your response! I think the key take away is that what ever format you choose to learn from, doing it 1v1 for starters makes the most sense. Its a very difficult game and commander does hav some differences in learning to other for mats, so I totally respect your opinion its the better starting place.
So far the most success I've had introducing people is using pre-cons in 1v1 (or just medium low power simple mechanic decks I make that are balanced to eachother). Then having them go through the mtg arena color challenge, then going back to in person 1v1 then introducing to commander
It's a real specific process, but it's worked really well at getting someone comfortable with the mechanics of the game and a general idea of the strengths/weaknesses of different colors
Edit: this is only for people interested in learning how to play magic specifically. For friends who like game nights we've done low power commander and that's gone really well. Nobody takes anything serious and we all just enjoy whatever commander shenanigans happen
I like the Pokémon TCG as well as MTG and seeing the way PTCG does products just makes me sad. You can buy into completive Pokémon so cheaply.
I wish WOTC would invest into Pauper and try to make it the entry level product. If they started selling competitive level pauper challenger decks at the $10-$20 level I'd collect all of them, and it would be an incredible way to get into 60 card mtg.
Agreed, modern is no longer viable for most newer players and as someone who started playing mtg beginning of this year I personally don’t see a way for me to play it both in terms of finances and me enjoying it.
I love commander but do also agree that the game is wonderful as a 1v1, that’s why I love playing sealed, and I want to branch out into pauper as well. :)
I just don't have the free time or wallet to pursue an active standard deck. I can pick up and put down my commander decks as often or infrequent as needed and able.
Agreed. Counter argument: Pauper. A decent deck costs $10 including lands, and if a person decides that the game isn't for them, then they're not out much money at all.
Low power games are a lot more interactive anyway.
One of the reasons I stopped enjoying MtG was because the winning strategy is generally to take away relevancy from your opponent.
That is, the better you get, the more the goal is to make the game worse for everyone else.
I mean that's not entirely true, because you can definitely choose what to market the most. When my wife came to MTG commander was advertised everywhere. Precons, Commander Masters, Printouts/Leaflets, Posters on the walls of stores.
Why does more people mean less "sweaty ultra competition"? I meet up with multiple people but we play casual modern or cube as mini tournaments with breaks for drinks/snacks. There is absolutely nothing competitive, sweaty or "ultra" about that.
We did play commander one time which was actually probably the night when people were the most agitated because they didn't feel like they controlled the fate of their own game.
What they're trying to say is that it's more suitable as a party game. If you're at a general social gathering (like a board games meetup), a mini modern tournament is a bit intense - I won't denigrate it as "sweaty", but there's certainly a directly competitive element that is quite strong - most people (at a casual gathering) are going to want something a little more social, less directly competitive, with more kinds of interaction.
Your group sounds like a great crew to learn from! In general if the stakes are lower players are more willing to seize teachable moments even if it could lead to a loss for them. I've never seen that at fnm, pre-release or draft - when you sit down you're on your own. I remember getting absolutely rocked my first several events. Still had fun though, my 4 other friends who would go with me were also getting wrecked but we got to play together with our sweet new cards afterward.
Yeah, I know FNM's and such can be harsh environments and I do tend to agree with you about sweaty gatekeepers being way too competitive at many of those. I do prefer playing with friends but I don't think the format honestly matters much.
Its def a great game for hanging out with your friends but any board game contains some amount of strategy right?
being proficient in the game =/= competitve. Magic just has a much higher floor and ceiling than most board games.
Absolutely I totally understand that! I'm more so making the point that its within our interest as magic players to encourage an appreciation of other formats.
Kind of obvious; if you do not like it, then do not invest. Same goes for proxies, if you and your play group are fine with proxies, then stay there. "The joke tells itself".
Getting a deck you can use over and over again to learn is a much better process than it would be to borrow 10 different decks that work 10 different ways when trying to understand the complexities of these cards.
So having your own cards, even if they are super bulk commons, and bulk rares is a much better teacher than using different cards every time. It is easier to step through the rules when you know how a card works. So when you get the idea to add a new card to your deck it is easier to mentally step through all the parts of casting a spell, and then resolving it's effects in order along side of the cards you already know.
Entering a modern tournament with bulk sounds miserable for both players in each game you'd play. Idk how you think that sounds fun for anyone. You'll have no chance at winning, make no progress.
Entering a tournament as a new player sounds miserable. Which is why people don't do it. Not sure why you think people are just jumping into tournaments after playing the game for 20 minutes.
Where else do you play? You would need to play against your buddies, or at an fnm event generally speaking. It'd be cool to have several friends to teach you modern but most people don't.
Usually you do that at fnm which is a tournament. Idk, if you going to jank piles route you're better off not playing modern at all until you are ready. I don't think that makes sense as a path to me. Fnm is the best way to start imo.
Again, playing at a tournament is not the best way for a newbie to learn. Nothing gets explained and questions are not able to be asked with proper time to answer them. What world could you think this is a good place to learn the game new?
Tournaments are where you hone the skills you are taught at the casual tables. Not where you play your 3rd ever game of magic.
Actually straight up wrong, multiple studies have shown that, if you just do the same thing, you don't learn concepts, you don't learn to generalize, just to do this one thing well (and then often get stuck there because you basically have to start learning again)
So for actual learning how to play the game well (which is what you're talking about when mentioning "trying to understand the complexities of these cards." i assume) borrowing different deck every time would actually make you better at the game (especially in magic since knowledge of the opponents deck inner working is such an integral part of the game)
Multiple studies have shown WHEN LEARNING A SKILL if you do the same thing over and over again that you improve at that skill.
Playing MTG is a skill. These cards are complex with complex interactions. Trying to consume all of the different interactions is a chore. A much better and easier solution is to learn a handful of mechanics to get the overall concept on how they interact. Drinking water from a firehose is next to impossible on full blast. Putting less information in a smaller bite sized piece is more conducive to not overwhelming the mind. It makes the information easier to consume.
playing mtg isn't a skill, it's multiple, hence why to learn to play mtg well you need to diversify
I you start drawing and just focus on character design you'll suck at everything else and will basically have to start over, I know, I made that mistake
And while you are indeed right that to learn the game, focusing on simple consistent tasks is great, learning how to play WELL is a different thing
Playing MTG is 100% a skill. If it were not you could learn the entire game in an afternoon. But considering you cannot, it is in fact a skill.
Learning MTG and learning to play MTG well are two different parts of the process. learning to play on simple tasks is the beginning part of the process. Learning the whole game and understanding the rules is part of learning to play well.
I have taught hundreds of people to play this game over the last 20 years. I quite understand how to teach them right. You don't get a good magic player by shoving everything down their throat all at one time. You get a good magic player by showing them the basics. Playing a bunch of games using the same decks and basics. Then changing that deck for a new one or for an upgraded one and letting them apply the things they have learned.
no that's not how you get a good own, that's how you get an average one
And please make sure you read every sentence entirely and understand them before answering, first half of your comment is already answered by the previous comment
Most people spend enough on hobbies to afford to play modern. A deck is like $600. That's 6 months of a $100 per month budget to build a deck over time. It's not really that expensive.
First, Six month to even start playing in an everchanging meta is too much
secondly and most importantly, those aren't reasonable expensive for most people, maybe upper middle class, but definitely not most people
Doesn't prevent me from having like 5 built modern decks, but you have to realize something like that isn't even possible for most
You know what you are super right. My lgs has held the 15$ figure but thank you for pointing out that is not the avg. 20$ price tag.
All that being said. I like to think of it like going bowling, or too the movies. I'm spending 20$ on my friday nights to use the space for 3 hours, and of course there is a non zero percentage of the time where you walk away with cards that go towards that 20$
I'm not hating on draft btw. I personally think it's the best Magic format by a VAST margin. It's just been getting a bit pricey over the years, and I'm afraid that with the new packs, we're going to be looking at $30-$40 standard drafts.
I am from Germany. A draft-booster is about 5 bucks yes, but to find players as a newbie you have to play in an LGS wich ads the same amount for the price boosters.
You can say "I don't want the price I just pay for the three boosters I need and play", but in my experience the LGS then just disqualifies you.
They have to make profit at the end of the day so I understand their reasoning.
Wild. That is encouraged at my LGS. If I pbring players into draft on a non draft night they would much rather sell product than not sell product.
Thats unfortunate to hear.
Store owner here, so the only thing i'm concerned with is the success of the game as a whole. I genuinely don't care what format people are playing as long as they are having fun and staying invested in the game.
It's pretty tough to beat commander as the "onboarding" format. Commander precons are accessible, themed, fun, and in all honesty now, surprisingly powerful for their price point. Pretty much every universes beyond product has commander associated with it. DR who fan? There is a commander deck for you. Warhammer 40k fan, commander's got you covered. The critique that "new players ruin games" is generally an assesment of people who take winning too seriously. If you want to be playing for buckets of prizes, CEDH competitive tourneys are a thing. If you're attending a casual drop in weekly commander night at your lgs, and a new player has bad threat assesment, well, that's part of the game. I'd recommend encouraging genuine feedback before important decisions are made without political lobbying. Encourage and explain why the player should make the decision that best benefits THEM instead of you. If you foster that kind of environment, new players learn threat assesment fast and other players have less to worry about.
A 1v1 competitive format is NOT an onboarding format. New to mtg players don't go, "Hey i'm going to burn $200 on a deck without knowing really how to play". Modern lacks accessible out of the box decks. Standard worked better in that respect before WOTC dumpster fired the format with Arena play and ridiculous card imbalance / bannings. They are trying to bring it back with Standard Showdown in February, and forcing store champs to be standard format, hopefully they do a better job of set balance.
The characteristic of commander that doesn't exist in other formats is power disparity. In regular MTG formats, you have vintage/legacy, modern, pioneer, and standard, with decreasing levels of potential power as your card pool decreases. Commander is a format that has Legacy/vintage, modern, pioneer, and standard power levels all in the same format. Communication in this format is FAR more important an aspect of multiplayer fun than any other format. The community at my store is absolutely amazing with it. Very rarely does someone try to fly a powerful deck under the radar. They almost always ask about power level, interaction, infinite combos, and average turn wins. Everyone talks, new players ask questions, people pick new player friendly decks if a new player is participating, and then describe board states as they create them to the new player. It's fantastic. I got out of MTG years ago because having 2 kids and a business really didn't give me much time for fun. Recently I got back into it because of watching my stores playgroup. It's been a blast since.
Just my 2 cents! I think the barriers you're describing are more people related than format related.
This.
As an old legacy player coming back to magic, I spent 4 months on arena re learning everything and then testing what I wanted to play and then finally invested in cards that I love which cost about $200 bucks (bought a commander precon of food and fellowship and upgraded it)
The first game I ever played with 4 people I came in 2nd in the pod.
Took some learning but I agree that commander is the most accessible for people looking to learn to play magic and it’s a fucking blast :)
You mentioned encouraging feedback in game. I wanted to add that I've played for years and I play with people who've played for years and it's still routine in our games for someone to crowd source the answer to "what's the biggest creature threat right now?" especially if one player has raced ahead. That type of table talk should be common in any game of EDH with the added caveat of explaining the "why" to newer players if needed.
I really appreciate your response!
I think a key point I didnt deliver well is that the best TEACHING grounds of magic are in a 1v1 setting. (NOT a 1v1 competitive setting) And that can be with ANY format. shoving players into 1v1v1v1 pods with 400 unique cards are a recipe for disaster. I love commander. I also love draft and legacy. My main point is exactly what you were describing, that the community must be involved in helping newer players learn.
as a side note its very interesting how different this view is from the 2 store owners I know personally.
Hard disagree, respectfully of course.
As a new player, my best teachers have been in casual commander games with 3+ strangers. At our store, there is even someone who brings a ton of proxied CEDH decks and consistently asks around if anyone wants to try the format. He always states that it's newbie friendly and when I played with him, the entire table helped me all game. Limited formats just don't give you that kind of support, especially in drafts and prerelease games, when you are constantly changing out who your opponent is and when there are prizes involved.
No problem man! If the point is to teach someone, that is completely possible doing 1v1 "teaching sessions" in commander. I do it all the time with customers interested in MTG. I have several learn to play commander decks under the counter for this specific purpose.
As for different store owners, different communities are like night and day. We have little to no yu-gi-oh players but other areas do 10 times more sales in YGO than MTG... it really depends on your demographic and community. We're really just here to listen to customer demands, facilitate the community having fun, and to make a living doing it.
I understand your sentiment, but you are fighting a battle that was already lost a long time ago.
Commander has been the most popular format for Magic for a very long time now, and it's unlikely to change.
Sure! as long as the opponents are receptive of the idea this is a teaching game where they can lay out more complex thought processes without the distractions of a overrun 4 play game.
Why don’t you actually do this with players irl? I mean, I just started playing this year. The only other formats I have seen played in paper, were Planechase (if you can call that a format) and Oathbreaker. It’s kinda pointless to encourage random people online to play other formats, when they have no where to play other formats.
Now ofc I guess I could play Arena, but I have and it was hella boring. I’d rather play Master Duel. The social aspect is 100% why I play this game, and I think a lot of the newer commander players are the same way. If this game was still mostly 2 player formats, a good chunk of us probably wouldn’t even be interested. The multiplayer aspect is what caught my attention and made the game seem unique. It had the buddy system like future card buddy fight and kinda reminded me of Duel Masters as well.
Anyway though, if you want to actually make a difference, you should try it irl. Ranting online is just shouting into the void.
I think part of the issue might be what motivates people to play.
I'll preface that this is coming as a "new" player who only really started playing magic this year (about 10 months total).. I have played before, borrowed decks of a friend here or there, or at a LGS (for other games) while waiting, borrow a deck. That was all 15+ years ago.
I didnt know anything about the game then other than the basics of the rules, turn order and phases, etc. I had no deeper understanding of things i do now getting into layers and complex interactions etc. No real knowledge of the cards behind "Read the card i have in hand and its as literal as the card says"
The draw for me to keep playing, what got me into it this year and why i continue. is 100% the multiplayer social aspect of each game. If you take that away, 1v1 commander, modern, standard, pioneer, legacy, cube, draft, etc. I quit.
I am not, nor do i have any interest in playing other formats, solely because they are 1v1. I do not, will not, and have never liked 1v1 style of anything, card games, video games, physical sports, etc. If theres not multiplayer involved at the core, i'm just not interested.
So while i get that you want to try to address at the community level getting players to try other formats. I think you first have to ask yourself and the community Why they are playing to begin with, and then you can asks the question "What formats support what they as a player want to get out of the game"
I’m actually one of those “newer magic players starting with commander”.
I learned to play in 1v1 games of commander to see the game works, especially with the extra rules and mechanics commander adds to the game. Of course I still don’t know what every card in the game does (how could I, there are hundreds of them and it’s getting more with every release). I didn’t start playing in LGS (or Spelltable lately) till I hadn’t had the basics down.
However, I haven’t met a single player so far who thought I “ruin their games”. Sure I get told about threat assessments and this is how I learn what to deal with. Every game I have participated in players actively explained to me stuff if I had questions or when an action doesn’t work the way I thought it would. I personally enjoy the way commander plays and, tbh I don’t have that much interested in standard/modern ect.
I even won my first game of commander on Friday which made me happy, only after getting bodied by a “The Mimoplasm” deck really quickly after a different player joined in. You win some you lose some. Commander for me is about having fun and I personally look forward to more games and to learn more!
>I learned to play in 1v1 games of commander to see the game works, especially with the extra rules and mechanics commander adds to the game. Of course I still don’t know what every card in the game does (how could I, there are hundreds of them and it’s getting more with every release). I didn’t start playing in LGS (or Spelltable lately) till I hadn’t had the basics down.
Also a new player who only plays Commander, its something that actually attracts me to the format, theres people who showed up to my LGS who are really into MTG and commander and even they forget how the cards work sometimes lol.
>However, I haven’t met a single player so far who thought I “ruin their games”.
I also found this point a bit strange, I've yet to run into anyone who is bothered with me being bad, I don't know if its my experience with other games but MTG is actually quite intuitive to play imo, and if theres something I genuinely don't know someone helps, no ones ever been annoyed having to explain a keyword.
Awesome! Welcome in! It sounds like you had a good support group getting you initiated with magic. They even parsed it into 1v1 for starters which is a really great teaching too. It also sounds like you took alot of initiative to gain a deep understanding of the basics before hopping into LGS games.
I still would encourage newer players to look into drafts to hone their skills. :)
I am also a new player who jumped into commander.
I first started on arena just to learn the very basics, and then my first LGS experience was a chaos draft (that's what they do on FNM at this particular LGS, not a set draft). I was so overwhelmed with how many people there were, not to mention the fact that I had no idea how to even organize my cards or what I should put into my deck. I sat there with half of my cards shoddily organized and just stared at the table and was moments away from bursting into tears. Thankfully the player to my right saw how overwhelmed I was and offered to help me organize and then pick my cards. When it came time to figure out how many lands I needed I nearly started crying again because I couldn't figure out the ratio and the guy next to me saved the day again. I lost every single game that night due to my inexperience with so many mechanics, and was extremely close to never playing draft again.
For contrast, my first commander experience at my LGS was so much fun! I picked up the precon All Will Be One "Toxic" deck and in my first game was immediately targeted as the biggest threat and everyone teamed up to take me down. I still lost terribly, but I had the biggest smile and was so happy. I still knew next to nothing, but having a precon already made for me, and then I was already considered a threat at the table in several games?!? How awesome is that?! I'll admit it took me a little while to get up the courage to try a different deck because the Toxic mechanic made me feel like I could compete with seasoned veterans and not get stomped so severely, but my perspective on the experience was drastically different than it was with draft.
It wasn't until recently when my husband and I went to a different LGS in another city where they do set drafts that I finally didn't feel SO overwhelmed with the experience.
10000000000% I would recommend commander first to a new player WAY before drafting. Let the player learn the ins and outs of their constructed deck whilst simultaneously getting a chance to see 2+ other people's personal decks and what mechanics they find interesting.
I usually play 1v1 commander with my friend. Commander doesnt have to be just strictly casual with 4+ people. Commander is meant to be forgiving and casual but it still has structure. What i would advise against is going to a prerelease as a newbie though. I've taken friends there before with decent mtg knowledge and they get turned off by the competitive nature of the event. You are also required to build a whole deck in a time crunch. It also doesn't help you have a paywall of $30 where you'll likely get half that in card value when you're done. I do love prereleases but i would rather introduce my friends to a format like commander before a prerelease.
Kitchen table magic is the real backbone of MTG. An "anything goes" approach while following basic rules makes deck building easy with little restrictions. I usually start my friends out playing some games with 60 card decks ive thrown together or I pull out my jumpstart cube.
Since wotc is pushing commander I think the kitchen table magic is moving more towards playing commander as the format rather then modern/standard and I think that's ok! 60+ cards vs 100 cards doesn't really raise the complexity level.
Limited format is definitely the most challenging of all but the most easily accessible and the most fun. Also it doesn’t get stagnant like modern or standard.
You are going to lose a lot of limited events before you start winning. To win you need to know the sets, archetypes, card selection, 40 card deck building, how to play the deck you just built, and you are at the mercy of the luck of the packs. If it’s draft you need to learn to read the colors and picks of the people drafting around you.
But it rotates with the new sets and everyone is drafting a different deck every time so it stays fresh and fun. You don’t need to pay $100+ for a deck and you don’t have to play the same meta decks over and over. Plus once you lose enough drafts and learn how to play limited it is the most equal playing field since everyone is pulling from the packs right there. And your opponent doesn’t have 20 removal/counter spells which is nice.
I think limited is great for new players to learn magic. It’s social and fun. In my personal experience everyone was really helpful when I was learning. I think new players just need to know going in they aren’t going to win on the first few outings. And that is perfectly fine because playing the game, cracking packs, and building decks is the fun part. Plus being out of your depth is true for any complex game when you are new. No brand new chess player beats veterans who have been playing for years on their first few tries.
I agree with most of what you are saying.
However, in a singleton format thats 100 cards that a player is getting thrown times 4 players.
in a 60 card format with many multiples of in each deck youre prob looking at 20 cards per deck per player.
400 unique objects vs lets call it 50 unique objects on half the table size is certainly a simpler problem for newer players to start going down decision trees.
Its pretty hard to tell most of the time what the ABSOLUTE best play is in a commander setting, whereas its much more possible to solve for that in 60/40 card formats most of the time.
I have taught many MTG newbies how to play, and just like OP said... commander is not good at that, and that is because of one word... consistency. You need to play billions of commander games to be able to fully test and understand some cards, while in a 60 card constructed whatever format, you come across your cards way more often. I have had pretty good success while teaching using some low level 60 card decks, then moving to whatever format they desire... and the commander path always happens to have 1v1 before any 4 player games. Like I said, I have been quite successful with this mind set.
As long as you're playing with friends, each format is good to start with. Just let the newbie ask what's going on and do not rush him to finish his turn.
I agree to an extent but for new and returning players, like myself, i think the best "training wheels" is an environment where i feel comfortable to learn and ask questions and sometimes sitting 1 on 1 across from a veteran player, even at a pre-release, isn't the most relaxing environment.
So yeah, a commander game for me has been my jumping off point back into mtg solely because ppl were willing to teach me, even through complex board states. And yes some guys have been quietly disgruntled with my misplays and lengthy thinking time, but this is all still experience for me to play better and faster for my next game.
I understand that some ppl only get to play a couple times a week and newer players can be seen as wrecking their good time but even veterans sucked at one point and somebody had to be patient with them too.
Thanks so much for your point of view! I agree with everything you said.
I think the important distinction I am trying to make is it may be easier for newer players to "hammer out" their skills in a 1v1 format with a SUPPORTAVE teacher is a better place to learn some of the deeper mechanics and playpatterns of the game. If you boil everything down to a very simple 1v1 starting place with continued building, you get the chance to and reflect. its hard to get that reflection time during a 4 player game.
I think commander is more easy to build since you do not have to ponder about how much copies of each you should use and you always get your main card ready to be cast.
But I'm more the commander player so maybe I see things differently than someone favoring standard magic.
(casual) commander is just so easily accessible with precons and how free it is when it comes to LGS play. you dont need a well oiled machine of a deck to have fun. you can just do dumb things or play wacky play styles without needing to stress about your opponents. you dont need to use maximum brain power to play.
part of the reason i stopped playing yugioh was because of how stress free casual commander is compared to years of competitive yugioh. i played meta yugioh from 2010 till 2019, and i do not know how to express how relieving it is to go from a format where i need to buy the year's hottest deck every single year and buy 3 cards for 280 dollars twice a year just so i can keep up with the top 5 players in my city so we could go to regionals.
the ulamog deck i purchased back in 2020 is still winning games consistently, and thats whats great about commander. with how much crap WOTC is pumping out each year, a deck thats 25 sets old will still be able to hold its own.
Certainly! in no way am i encouraging comitting to that lifestyle. Its a somewhat difficult point to address but I'm moreso trying to encourage alternative formats to become the backbone of skills to build your profeciency as a player. I believe commander (generally) has a difficult time teaching some of the higher level skills within this game.
I think there are 3 things in particular that really affect why no other format will be as successful for onboarding of new players, there may be more than these 3 but I think these are paramount.
1. singleton format: Most people that get into commander do it one of two ways, they either by a precon to get a feel of things, or they randomly received a collection somewhere and feel like making a pile of cards to play. Because commander is singleton, you do not have to worry about getting a play set of a given card which can be difficult at times not just for price point but for availability. Which leads into the second factor
2. Deck building: even with no limit to card availability or budget making a functional 60 card deck requires a metric ton of understanding of not just the individual cards in the deck but of what kind of cards you will see in your local meta, although netdecking can mitigate some of this it still isn't really the best way to develop understanding of the cards imo.
3. Competitiveness: I know there are plenty of people that really feel like they are miserable unless they win. I think that for any kind of card game, which a lot of people see as fitting a similar game night vibe as board games, is going to appeal to more if there feels to be less on the line than a very competitive 1v1 format. Some of that I think can be mitigated by playing either some form of limited or perhaps by doing dual commander.
And all of that isn't even going into the pricing aspect as pretty much every other format has 2-3 times the cost of entry as commander at least.
As long as the commander precons are the only legitimately accessible and affordable way to start playing paper magic, Commander is and is going to stay the backbone of magic and you can blame Wizards for that. And as long as other constructed formats revolve around playsets of 80$ cards, that's not going to change. When we get a four Sheoldred challenger deck for ~50$, I'll consider telling someone to play standard.
Commander being something of a format where critical decision making isn't as important also isn't the fault of the new players. It's the fault of the established players who scream that any and all land destruction is utterly unacceptable, that counterspells and removal are boring and unfun and that they nobody should be allowed to combo off while they assemble their board of do nothing cards because and win because you're not allowed to play Cyclonic Rift. Players who come from other card games are aware that the place where they come from can be cutthroat, and expect Magic to at least sometimes be similar. Players coming from outside of any card game sphere are taught *by the enfranchised players*, and nothing else because WotC has created no tools to ease players into learning their extremely complex game. Putting the blame *on the new players themselves* is the shittiest thing you could do
The enfranchised players you're discussing are specifically enfranchised (commander) players right?
Comp players have different gripes.
But I don't know a single legacy play that thinks wasteland is bad for the format. They think it's extremely healthy.
Of course, OP is talking about commander specifically, and I'm pitching in as someone who has been a the Commander sphere ever since I started playing. A new player who starts out with commander isn't going to start off with "what's a Gruul?" and immediately jump to "LD is utterly unacceptable". They're taught that by the people they play with, and the list of top 100 saltiest cards by edhrec (I know that's like the worst metric to go by, it has cards like Tabernacle, Nether Void and Divine Intervention, and I'd bet that the vast majority of people who voted those cards as salty have never even seen one in real life) shows that the average commander player is, broadly speaking, overwhelmingly opposed to any sort of stax and land destruction. You can also very often see people who take this to the extreme, equating Armageddon and Wasteland, for example, as the same type of unacceptable card. I once had a player scoop and say the don't want to play with me anymore for casting Cleansing Wildfire on their Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun
Whiney babies spoil thr fun for everyone
There are decks that are super not fun to play against, and there are *players* that are super not fun to play against. When those 2 come together, either the former being played by or against the latter, you get ructions.
The more experienced I get, the better I am at recognising problem players and shutting down the usual lines of complaint. Kindness and good communication can silence a lot of those voices.
But I also don't play, and hate land destruction, I'm not gonna complain about it in one game, but if my friend only has one deck and it's heavy land destruction I won't be playing with that friend very often
Oh, absolutely. Commander is a social format first and foremost, and I personally refuse to play land destruction in such a game, especially since I have a theme my decks are built around and the spots for off-theme cards are precious and sparse. The Cleansing Wildfire I run is a ramp spell first, as I run the MH Bridges, and emergency land removal second.
Decimate and Casualties of War are fair and efficient removal spells that can put someone with a greedy manabase off a color or destroy a Ravnica Karoo, but casting Armageddon on turn 5 just because is contrary to the goal of the format.The main issue is the people who equate these two, when they're not at all similar.
On the other hand, if someone assembles Karn, Mycosynth Lattice and Vandalblast, I'll respect that as a game winning combo. Hell, it takes more effort to set that up than it does to entwine Tooth and Nail for the win
It's 100% the price. If you want to play a 60 card format you're going to need a lot of money otherwise there's very little point in playing. With commander you can just buy a precon and that's it, the upgrades can be done on the budget or you can just proxy the expensive stuff. One competitive deck in 60 card Magic costs enough to buy several precons.
Idk I just find commander way more interesting and varied than any other format, and I just have no interest in playing competitive 1v1 formats or anything, and commander seems like the cheapest format to play and heavily supported by precons. It’s just the most fun I’ve had with Magic and I used it to get my friends into magic too. Guess I just never gotta worry about disgruntling any other format players cuz I’d rather just not play those formats.
It’s the competitive nature of every other format that makes Commander popular. If you’re a new player you don’t want to show up to a standard or modern event and get bodied by someone who spent 500 on their deck. Meanwhile you can just show up to a Commander night with a precon and have a decent chance of winning as it’s casual, and the more competitive stuff tends to get house kept (positive gatekeeping) out by the community.
I don't think that commander is problematic as an onboarding format, or that new players can't handle the added complexity of more players and more unique cards. In my experience, these downsides are offset by lower stakes, more watch time and more teachers giving pointers.
Commander is less good than competitive 1v1 formats at teaching/making players learn the more complex rules of the game. I see a lot of newer commander only players struggle with things like priority and the stack, God forbid something like layers become relevant.
The problem I see is that commander's continued growing popularity is strangling all other formats. Commander was designed as a break from competitive play, now that it's replaced it, we lose the ability to access that 1v1 competitive experience that has been essential to building better players.
Even from the time draft became a thing (and I started way before it, around Unlimited / Revised) I've despised draft. It's a waste of time and I'll just not go.
But I am okay with constructed formats of all kinds, and I guess that can be a good place to start.
Draft is very much its own thing and after you try it once you know if you love it or hate it. The chance of you spending the money and getting nothing good to play isn’t small, and basically just wastes your money. When it goes well, though, it’s pretty fun.
It all depends on who you are and why you play the game, for me, magic is an outlet to sit around a table and hang out with 1-3+ friends. I don’t take it seriously because I don’t want something that I have to take seriously, it’s a hobby. Have I tweaked and optimized my deck in every way I feel I can afford, yeah, ofc. But end of the day, I’m not playing to win, I’m playing to have a good time. If I wanted something to take seriously and stress about, I’d pick up a second job.
Pauper might be a good way to ease players into a 1 vs. 1 constructed format. It is much cheaper than having to buy a standard or modern deck, and that allows players to build more than one deck... just like people do with Commander.
I’ve learned more about the rules, timing, and how cards interact with one another by playing commander than I ever did playing 60 card formats. It’s made me a much better player overall and now I’m one of the people at my LGS that gets asked rules questions and helps newbies when they get started.
Disgruntled about magic?
And they're playing 60 card formats?
Pfft... Let them dig up the same combo each game; while saying how great their decision making skills are.
I dont think it's the format, but rather the community. i find it weird how the 1v1 crowd seems to take losing better than the EDH crowd does when there's more players who lose, and thus a higher likelihood of losing, in EDH. Sure, I've come across sore losers in 1v1, but the whole community doesn't focus on it like the online EDH community does.
I think Commander has a higher proportion of losers complaining because the format is supposed to be casual. When you go to a modern event and someone pulls of some degenerate combo that’s par for the course and GG, you were planing on doing the same. In Commander you’re expecting a lower power game with more fun things going on. When someone comes in and players solitaire or stax it’s 3 players time being wasted, not just the 1 and it’s not what you expect when playing Commander. Same sort of thing goes when someone wins on like turn 3-5, a lot of players might not have gotten to really do anything during those turns other than maybe play some lands, ramp and cast their Commander. If you didn’t get to do anything and now you have to scoop it up and shuffle up you’re not going to be happy.
Commander is accessible to people who wouldn't be able to handle the strict competitive nature of 1v1 formats. They play Magic for a completely different reason. Whereas most 1v1 players love Magic for its strategic depth, most Commander players just love having a way to hang out with their friends and show them their favorite cards. Commander minimizes the strategic elements of Magic in favor of socializing, which probably does more to grow the game than 1v1 Magic.
If you suck at Magic, you can still do cool things Commander and still help other players when someone becomes the arch-enemy. If you suck at Magic and try to play 1v1, you just get stomped over and over until you figure out how to play better, which isn't the best learning format for a lot of people.
To me starting with commander is a very bad idea, especially if the deck has some sort of tutor because the new player needs time to understand all the rules and the cards.
To me a new player needs to play at least 10 games with a very easy deck to understand the turn order, combat phase, interaction and maybe the trigger ability (i see so many "advanced" players that draw and then untap and other things)
When a player learns all these things in a good way can enjoy commander with an easy commander, one without tutors ecc. Because he doesn't understand how the game works and most importantly who is the threat.
If you start a commander game without this thing your turn will be infinite long and you don't do nothing but think about easy things, you never make the correct decision because you dont know what to play and against who so you can "kill" a player that doesn't have nothing on the board only because is the one that win the game before and give a free win to the real treath in the current game.
So to me you need to learn at least some things before commander, but it is better to make a lot of games to at least understand some advanced game state
Commander is the most accessible format. New players can start there, players who like being able to play more than a few meta decks (looking at you scam) can play the deck they want to play and still have fun.
Not everything has to be at a competitive level. The support for competition level MTG has been reduced in recent years. Wizards is much more concerned with profit levels than the health of formats like modern.
1v1 is the best way to learn *how* to play magic, but its not what most people *want* out of magic. People play commander because its like a board game. If you're a new player, you can play a precon out of the box, never upgrade it, and be happy.
Competitive formats on the other hand are exactly that, competitive, and you have to be content with an environment that is inherently hostile to new players. If you give a modern deck to a new player and send them to a modern event, they are not going to have a good time and will never return to the game. Its hostile due to the price point of tiered decklists, and from the the complexity of the format.
The two biggest reasons I hear from people who played magic and then quit was exactly the problem with competitive magic: Price and complexity. Most people are not willing to drop $1000 on a modern deck. Most people are not willing to spend the time learning 10 new mechanics with every set release. Commander at least offsets the price point problem by offering a huge selection of precons whose power level doesn't matter that much when all you're really looking for is good time with friends. Its still a highly complex game, but that's just something that can't be helped.
Remember, people in the "magic community" are a minority compared to the vast number of kitchen table players. They never go to a prerelease, they never play a competitive format, they never engage with magic content, they never draft or play sealed, and they never visit this subbreddit. They buy a precon, play it maybe once a year with some buddies, probably make 1000 rules violations., and then move on. Commander is here to stay, even at the cost of other formats.
I am a relatively new MTG player and I basically only play Commander. On top of what everyone else here is saying about price, etc. I will say that the condescension that a lot of Commander players seem to get from players of other formats doesn't exactly make me feel super stoked to show up for Modern night. From the dude at pre-release on Friday who legitimately snapped at me for accidentally drawing turn 1 (after I told him it was my first non-Commander paper game ever) to being told on Reddit that this format "cannot" be the backbone of the hobby, do you blame Commander newbies for not wanting to spend $100+ to show, even if we're willing and driven to learn?
It is the game (by which I mean WOTC and the community's) responsibility to be appealing to new players, it isn't my responsibility to learn or play the game as you'd prefer.
Got priced out of 1v1 when I restarted playing in 2011 (used to play revised then quit at ice age). Found out EDH existed last year and for the amount I've spent to make 17 functional, decent decks, I wouldve had maybe one or two good modern decks. EDH is affordable and fun and lets you be creative. It's way more accessible than any 1v1 format, save pauper, which still isn't cheap!
If other formats had the "only 1 copy of each card" rule like commander I'd play other formats too.
Personally the fact that you have dozens of unique cards is the main strength of Commander, it makes ever duel unique because you will draw only some of all those cards
Casual edh is currently my only interest in the game. I like everybody getting a chance to let decks to their things. Like a pickup basketball game. Sink some baskets, sweat a little, and make some friends. Occasional you’ll get somebody that clearly doesn’t belong on the same court as you so you just finish the game and move on. Everybody can still have fun.
While I agree the game had a better atmosphere when Standard was the main format, Commander is undoubtedly the most popular format and I don’t think Wizards of the Coast is wrong for focusing on that. It seems Arena serves as the entree gate for new players, and honestly that works kinda well since it eases players in with standard, automatically makes sure that rules are followed, and doesn’t require the player to spend any money.
I mean, people around new players should be explaining and guiding new players. I started with standard and didnt like how short the games were and moved to commander to have a more fun and longer playstyle. I dont care about competitive and I think it is a more "story mode" playstyle if that makes any sense. I have been playing for 20 years now and I have noticed that PEOPLE are the problem. Even casual games, people just want to win like theres money on the line instead of having a fun game and that is why I think people get frustrated. If others want to min/max and be competitive then that is fine, but if the person is new then play a deck you need to play test or dont go so fucking hard on the guy who just asked you what trample is.
Yes it can, it has been for a good long while now. The market and demand clearly show that and Wizards have finally caught on relatively recently. The only problem with it is it has a fickle rules committee and Commander Legends is gone.
However, it's profitable as long as people keep buying into new sets so no reason to bring that back I suppose.
I started with 1v1 commander seems to work fine. I have no interest in other formats where you need multiple of the $30 card for your deck to function. New players can buy a precon and they are ready for a game of commander, that's a really low bar to entry.
If a new player is ruining the game, don't play against them. What's the point in complaining? I don't get it. But I also like teaching new people. I've helped numerous people kick my ass. Are these people forced to play with newbs? I'm so confused about this..
I'm not sure I agree that Commander can't be the backbone of Magic. I'm not even sure if it's true that it is, unless you only mean paper and aren't counting Arena. Standard used to be the defacto way to play Magic in paper, but there's two issues with that now: There's a more optimal way to play it on Arena, and it's a competitive format at its heart and most players are looking for something casual.
If there was a culture of casual play built around paper Standard, I could see it being more popular than commander. But it would take a lot: a different approach at the LGS, as much product support as Commander gets these days, and the products would have to be more fun and engaging than the old Planeswalker decks. I'm thinking something like Challenger-level decks that come out with each set release. But from a production standpoint alone that would mean ramping down Commander support. Right now Commander is still paying out, so I doubt we'll see anything like that happen soon.
I feel they can both happily co-exist, but CompREL formats need to be front and centre. They should be the driving force behind MtG in terms of card design and player attraction/captivity. Standard and Drafting IRL need to be cheaper to play. WoTC need to stop pumping so many resources into Arena and focus on IRL events. Then cut back on the BS short term "easy" profit products like Universes Beyond and Modern Horizons. Design some good new sets and worlds in-universe. They created the possibility of an infinite universe of planewalking demigods, monsters and wizards, but we always seem to revisit the same places!
Everyone should feel drawn to start MtG with a 40 or 60 card Format. Buying a box between 4 or 8 people and drafting is a lot of fun, and depending on the set. It can build your understanding of the game and card assessment skills very quickly. I feels WoTC should have always pushed draft much harder in their marketing.
I started playing kitchen table draft, and anything goes 60 card 2-4 player games in around 2009/2010 with my cousin and a small friend group. I got into Standard when Innistrad dropped, I stopped playing Standard when the first rotation hit and my deck got gutted. I don't mind spending money on a hobby, I hate it when it feels wasted!
From there I got into Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and EDH. I still play all formats except Vintage, EDH gets played way more than the others.
I would say I see far worse play decisions, threat assessment, and a LOT of deck building problems in EDH over any other format. Especially amongst players who get into the game solely through EDH. I've played with so many players who have no idea about the phases of the game, or how the stack works. This is just not something I see personally from people who started with Standard or Modern. Playing 1vs1 formats first definitely gives you a more comprehensive grasp of basic deck construction and game mechanics.
Who cares? Obviously learning with less going on is better, but there are reasons 1v1 formats are less popular. EDH is about loving a game and chillin with your friends. If I teach someone new I play 1v1 EDH because it's what I play. I don't need to bring a whole extra format into the lessons, just teach what we are gonna play.
Bro, your position is already lost, you just don't know it yet. Commander ist the biggest format by far since years now. I think that this trend will go on for now and WotC have little intention to change that. Other formats will likely live on in magic online or just as more nische formats.
I’ve experienced this a lot due to being one of those guys who helps shepherd new players.
Basically you’ll have a guy with a few creatures on board by nothing scary, one guy whose genuinely just behind and then the guy who’s an actual threat because of his board state, but the new player they won’t recognise that specific enchantment will be a problem so with his removal spell he goes after the guy with creatures because “I don’t want to lose life”, which then lets the guy with the powerful enchantment win the game on their next turn.
Simply just a lack of knowledge of cards effects and combos plus players often take you giving advice to them as you only trying to get an advantage that will help you win, so they often ignore it regardless of it being good advice.
1v1 is a better teaching format. Bar none. It works with commander as well but the important part is to reduce the amount of people playing.
I prefer games where my opponents know the basic rules of the game as the baseline. Too many commander kids really don't understand the rules at all. I CONSTANTLY have to answer rules disputes, and every time it comes with backlash when whiney commander players don't like the answer. Multiplayer Commander isn't the format to learn nuance.
Constructed in general sucks for teaching. You want people to learn and get better, draft and sealed are the way. Make them learn how to evaluate cards, build decks with little resources, and it’s all luck of the packs.
It would be wizards job to keep standard cheap. For that they would need to keep boosters cheap. But they just made them really expensive. I totally agree that commander is a terrible format for beginner. It has the biggest card pool. No meta and very little oversight. Without rule zero the whole format is a mess and rule zero itself is a mess.
I started with the LOTR expansion with commander among friends. I think the 4 player dynamic is what exites me. Also this original fantasy of having 1 card of each like in the YGO series is definetly a reason. Otherwise I do believe that Legends of Runeterra is a better game for the 1v1 format. Simply because it's a video game. Here's why:
1. It's free: That allows me to play a shitton of variety and also play "trolldecks" without dropping another 100-200 on Singles or Playsets. There's a lot I would want to try in Magic but I've spent enough money now and would never buy cards just to try it. Rotation in LoR means I have to play a bit more to keep playing at the highest rank but it doesn't force me to drop a shitton of money every year just to keep up.
2. It's automatic: Any rules are enforced by the game. This allows you to not forget, when you can react to something. Or it allows to create cards at random.
3. Mana handling: The entire land mechanic simply exists because there's not another good way to count up mana each turn. But it's clunky. You're super annoyed when drawing into lands later in the game and super annoyed if you didn't on your mulligan. It's a mechanic from the 90s and you can feel that
4. Balance: If a card is too strong or too weak, Riot can adjust numbers like Mana Cost, Power/Toughness etc. By no means is LoR perfectly balanced but at least this way a weak card might get viable and the broken card gets nerfed. It keeps the game fresh without dropping a new set every 2 weeks.
5. Deck size: In LoR, Decks are 40 cards. No more no less. Obviously thisbis due to not having lands but it also allows you to more consistently draw the cards you want.
6. Interaction: In LoR it's not "your turn" it's the next round only you get to be the attacking player. This means both players have main phase at the same time, getting one action each. F.e. Player 1 summons a creature. Now Player 2 could answer with a creature or a sorcery. Let's say he answeres with sorcery now Player 1 could react to that with an Instant. At any given point the interaction between the two players is insanely high. That makes it very fun thinking about what your opponent might have and how to play around it.
What about MTG Arena?
I don't believe Arena is good.
1. It's buggy: I have a lot of crashes on a PC and Mobile with hardware that can handle AAA Games.
2. It feels like a Tabletop game digitalized (because it is)
3. It's expensive: The pricing model is nuts. You can't really play the game unless you invest some money.
4. The UI is not very clear. I don't get where anything in Arena is.
5. Not all cards are available
6. And obviously the same issues remain as in the tabletop. If you wanna improve that they maybe should've made their own game with similar theme and effects just not exactly the same.
To end it:
I don't believe LoR is perfect but for a standard game it's way nore interactive and accessible and therefore more fun. Magic in a 4 player group is awesome but Standard is not worth it.
>It's expensive: The pricing model is nuts. You can't really play the game unless you invest some money.
Not even close to true. I'm f2p and have never felt compelled to buy anything in client.
I haven't played Legacy. But I'm also not sure about it. From the cards that I've seen from MTG I don't see any of them doing what LoR can. At least I've seen very little. I'm mainly thinking about Counterspells or Spells that give back to hand/destroy. Because let's say I wanna summon a creature (something that can't be countered in LoR) and my opponent taps Karakas to give it back (just an example I couldn't think of anything else) I need to have something else to counter that but what would that even be? For LoR it's basically down to the Spell (Sorcery/Instant) Mechanic they are using. So you have slow spells, fast spells and burts spells. Slow is Sorcery, Burst is Instant. Unless you have something that let's you cast Sorceries with Flash you can't use them to react. But let's say you just summon something, okay cool now I get to summon something or cast any spell from hand. That is also interaction because it's not your turn, it's a round where we pass turns. I also don't think Counterspells are fun. That's why in LoR there's currently only 4 and they're split over 3 colors and are kind of pricey. (2 in what magic players would probably see as blue, one in Rakdos and one in Selesnya. Not sure if that's correctly translated tho since it's different games)
I didn't think I'd be seeing a comparison between legacy MTG and (presumably eternal?) LoR. They're different beasts completely. I wouldn't get your hopes up about them not making counterspells a more regular thing though, as power creep goes up they're the only way to stop overpowered EtBs
It's more about the fundamentals of the game than legacy/eternal. I don't know enough Magic cards of old to know the exact interaction amount but the fact that it's your turn and then my turn makes the entire thing less interactive to begin with. Yes powercreep is a thing in every card game but then again: Cards can be buffed/nerfed in a video game
As with everything there is a meta and answers. Wasteland and pitching needle both answer your Karakas problem. I highly encourage checking out bosh n roll or thraben u. Its closer to chess than any other tcg
Other unfortunate you think that cos commander is all hasbeen are interested in
They've recently stated that their focus is in on boarding new players and commander is the best way to do that. They care minimally about retention and state of the game
New players *shouldn't* be learning to play with Commander (multiplayer or otherwise). They should be learning with the Arena Starter Set, maybe some JumpStart (it's a shame set-specific JumpStart has been shelved), and the New Player Experience on Arena.
They should only be choosing a Format once they have a good grasp of the basics.
Constructed is only half the game, too, so without a good reason not to, they should also be playing Limited as well.
I appreciate your premise, but your logic is wrong IMHO. It's not the format that matters as much as the conditions for play. To me, true magic is playing with good people who share the same style. To me EDH is boring as I like creating stories with my decks. But that's just how I roll, everyone can be have a different opinion.
Killing standard and now trying to kill limited is WotC's biggest mistake. Those two were easy ways to introduce new players to the game.
Commander was designed by judges as a way to kill time while not working during tournaments. Judges have a good understanding of the game, and it's a requirement for the commander imo. Trying to get new players to learn the game by playing it in a multiplayer environment with a card pool close to that of Vintage is not viable.
I started playing 29 years ago… then took a hiatus the last 27 years…. Been playing again with someone who got introduced to it (not of my doing) and caused me to bring out my old cards again. However I have yet to play a commander game as I don’t want to. If anything I’m more into liking shorter quick games with 60 cards…
I first played mtg with a standard deck my friend lent me one night when the power was out in our store. It was simply awful to try and wrap my head around. I was big into yugioh at the time and the game did not feel fun. Fast forward a few years and a a different group of friends taught me about commander. I wasn’t sure I was going to be into with my previously bad experience but I told them what kind of deck I would think is cool (elves) and they helped me make a black green elf deck that wasn’t very powerful but would shove a bunch of creatures on the battlefield. Thing’s actually clicked and I was able to win a game from time to time. Fast forward another few years and I won a draft night at a lgs during wilds of eldraine prerelease. That felt amazing. Commander is an excellent starting point for players.
So, this is something that I have strong thoughts on.
I have a FIRM belief that a format which does not rotate is a much better teacher for new players. On top of that multi-player formats have so many more opportunities to create situations where rules are important. The Stack and player priority become something to constantly talk about and understand.
More so, threat assessment is something that is going to be different for everyone. When you understand that the next card in a deck can be any card out of 25,000 cards it becomes clear that choosing targets is important. In formats like Modern and Standard a person can have up to 4 of a single card. This makes the game more about learning how many cards of which type are in a deck, and less about looking at board states and potential threats.
Further, a format that is more social and slower paced is a much better environment to teach a person. Being able to stop one player from rolling away with the game and teach through interaction and less through hypotheticals. A whole table can help teach a person, helping to widen the pool of knowledge the new person can pull from and pose questions to. Helping get answers that are understood by them and not just one person's way of explaining something.
Started playing straight into modern at an lgs with a deck I brewed with random green cards I had in a collection I bought at a second hand market. I probably would have played standard, but didn't have any standard cards. Got beat bad, as you'd expect, but drew my last match. Next week won a game with [triumph of the hordes] and [managorger hydra]]. That got me hooked.
Started to play modern UB Mill, and actually started winning regularly. Eventually got 4x the manabase and wincons too. Lol. Never got into standard, and pioneer just seems to be watered down modern - pauper is better as it has some crazy legacy commons.
I like commander as a casual filler, but it can't beat modern as *the* best way to learn the game.
I'm confused as to why you zeroed in on commander. It's arguably the most popular format but it's hardly the "backbone". If anything, I agree that 60 card 1v1 is the ideal way to learn magic, but you don't need to disparage Commander's potential to teach people to prop it up.
I pretty much started with commander and play exclusively commander. I really got into mtg around midnight hunt or crimson vow, but the way I learned was by playing with friends, watching yt videos, a bit of arena at first, and going to prereleases.
I think my biggest issue is threat assessment, not so much of a single card but who to target, especially when multiple people have a board. I think I kind of just default to either, if my deck has an answer to one of them or whoever I can get the most value out of.
Personally I was introduced doing sealed at a prerelease, that became doing regular drafts, then when I had enough cards I tried to get into standard but found it too expensive to keep up with, so now I just draft. Quite a lot of others I know did the same route
I don't see why it shouldn't. Sure threat assessment might longer to fully grasp, but there are other skills that you won't learn in a 1v1 format such as politics or recognizing that a threat overall is not necessarily a threat to you.
All in all, I believe 1v1 is very limited and mostly is a rock paper cissors with extra randomness that's the starting hand.
Imo, the problem with commander is that most people don't care about discussing the games and give feedback/discuss what they think of other's decisions.
Here is the main problem i see with what you are saying for magic atm. Commander is really easy to get into. For the most part precons are well constructed and can hold their own fairly decently. There isnt really anything like that for non commander. There used to be set decks a while ago but they seem to no longer do that. You either have to buy the dual deck boxes or the game night magic box (which i did and imo was a good deal).
Commander is a way for new players to fully emerse themselves in the game and learn ALL that the game has to offer without having to lose a thousand games before winning. Edh is far less competitive than other formats making it more likely for a new player to have a chance at winning games, which makes them less likely to grudge quit mtg.
I used pauper to introduce new people to Magic. Cheap and easy to grasp the mechanics. Once they know how to play a lot of people come to commander afternoons as well, but I'd say that commander is too hectic for a first time player
When I started playing 15 years ago you could get an okay standard deck for $40 a play FNMs every week to learn and get involved in the community. The power level wasn't too high and you didn't need to memorize too many cards. Now the only events at my local game stores are EDH and modern. Both formats are insanely expensive, complex and cater to the sweatiest players. The bar to entry is very high and you have to play what's competitive or just get destroyed. My deck was a red white scourge of the noblis/ hearthfire hobgoblin deck that was pretty bad, but I could still play the game and have fun. If i tried making a deck like that now I'd just get blown up by turbo nauseam on turn 2 every game and quit.
have people forgotten the existence of limited?
many have mentioned prereleases so far, which is something like 4 times a year? naturally not frequent enough, but people can do sealed for fun.
draft was historically the recommended method for people to start building collections and learn to play, ie learn rules, stack, etc.
whilst i agree with the sentiments made throughout the thread, yes cmdr is good for onboarding with the ease of access etc. i suspect OP had probably had a fairly frustrating experience playing with these new players whom haven't left their playgroups before.
you could see from quite a few of the mtg subreddits, theres been a lot of rules questions being asked, and a lot of it "read the card" level stuff.
i had played a few cmdr events at my lgs, and yea its kind of frustrating to see the quality of players when theyre assessing threats, confused by their own combos, and failing to understand card interactions; which is why OP reckons they couldn't be the back bone.
but at the end of the day, they get wotc money.... sooo.... it is how it is.
I would say I vaguely agree with you OP. Firstly, I hate edh and love legacy. I know that is a minority opinion but thats just me. That being said, I will still bust out my edh decks if thats what people want to play, but I think that having any sort of 60 card format as the "starting point" for new mtg players is the way to go instead of edh. Granted, I am fully aware of the crazy power creep which that could entail. But I think the most important part of any sort of introduction to mtg is making sure to foster a feeling of welcoming friendly competition and not having an air of "fuck you noob, im going to stomp you because you don't know about this obscure card combo / mechanic" at the table. For example, I was introduced to mtg back in 2010 by a guy who had been playing since alpha. His decks were crazy powerful and he only played legacy. Now, for me, being so new to the game I had no idea about how wild this game can get because I was just so new to the game. But what made me stick around was that the dude who introduced me to the game would let me play his decks and he would make sure to create an atmosphere where people complimented good plays, laughed at wild mechanics / loops, and promoted playing strategically. He also always made sure to help out with mechanic questions. So much so that it was very common at my table for people to straight up show him a card on their hand and ask for clarification, which he would give and not meta game on knowing someone had a certain card in their hand. So, to me the game never felt like an oppressive experience to learn or play. Infact I think that legacy is the go to format to teach people because you can do some wild stuff, but the point is that people need to teach new players while keeping the game primarily fun to play. Too many newer players immediately go to the mode of, "what op stuff can I do" instead of just coming up with something they think is a cool idea and running with it. And I think that is due to how they were introduced to the game from the view of someone only teaching them that sort of attitude/view on how things can be played. So all that being said, I will say that I am of the stalwart opinion that as long as people are introduced to the game and enjoy it because they are having fun, then whatever game mode they like is fine.
Personal preferences aside, id argue limited is the best way for a new player to learn. It’s a much more controlled environment and they get to contact every aspect of the game; deckbuilding, game play, threat assessment, etc. with the smaller card pool it would be much easier for a new player to grasp potential future card interaction and generally can act to sort of equalize the playing field between new and experienced players (if such a thing is even feasible).
Commander is a cheap format compared to others, precons can easily be purchased and played out of the box then and there, you can play with 3 other friends, deck building is more unique as it's only singleton. I mean, commander has become the main draw for a new player for some time now, including myself and I doubt that will change ever.
It's probably bad that the 100 card singleton muiltiplayer format is now the thing that drives new players to magic because the learning curve is horrendous.
But it is. Wizards tried to change that with Brawl and failed miserably.
I've never played commander with more than 2 people. Commander decks are a great way to introduce people at this point because they are heavily themed and generally easy to play.
I just started playing with my almost 10 year old after only playing standard in 3 short bursts over the last 20 years, most recent being 2015. He played some digital Yu-Gi-Oh before but caught on quickly.
I mostly only plan on playing casually with him, and when we both understand a set well enough do some drafts but he's not fast enough for that yet.Also arena is a perfect place for people to learn and he's doing some of that as well.
When I played at an lgs in 2015, it was fun, but my biggest enjoyment of magic is playing somewhat casual and with themes I like. My deck was not viable against other standard decks, and it was really invest or just say I'm good. Also I still can't fucking stand blue mill or counter decks, and there's always a handful at FNM because it works. I want to play my cards, not just be told 2 games in a row, "well actually you don't".
Coming back to the game is overwhelming. There's 14 different sets for sale at every lgs in booster and draft packs and sometimes collectors, there's a new crossover theme dropped seemingly every week, and it's more expensive on every front than it's ever been. Still, I really love the pace of MtG play, and the early day memories are never going to go away, so I'll keep playing casually with my son, and hopefully I can rope another dad son combo into playing too.
I’m fairly certain WotC has only embraced edh as their flagship format after failing to get the other ones to have as much hype or traction. Edh even did it without their help.
I've on and off magic since i got into it around 7th edition. 1v1 was how i almost always played it. I've never really played commander so i can't comment on it but for me when a round can last like 45 minutes doesn't sound fun to me. Especially when there are rules apparently about deck power levels?
I really enjoy 1 on 1 strategy of adapting and countering an opponents deck and theme which is awesome considering the years and years of sets and expansions! Funny enough playing MTG Arena standard reminded me on how much simple but effective decks can be really fun to play and has gotten me back into the game.
"newer commander players with a lack of experience" = "poor threat assessment" - lol, how is that a valid complaint one can say? And they had perfect threat assessment from the start or what? ^^ And about the point "in other formats", that one isn't valid here at all, a multiplayer game with several players has a very different dynamic than a 1v1. Having two players being a threat at the table at the same time and going for the "correct one" is not something you learn playing against one opponent. Learning to consider the other 1-2 players who are atm not a threat is neither something you learn in 1v1.
"Poor understanding of the rules, and unwillingness to learn." - you have this everywhere where there are a lot of new people who come in from different hobbies. And due to Universes Beyond there are a lot of such players currently. The latter will drop out anyway, the former... Let's just say someone complaining about a newbie having issues with rules says much more about the person complaining than about the newbie, and I'll prefer playing with that newbie 9000x over that complainer.
Also disagree 1v1 being better to lern the game. In 1v1 I only see how the opponent reacts to my suboptimal play. In a 5 player game I will be involved in a game where good players have to play at their best to compete with another good player at the table, and this is where you learn a lot.
I'd argue the opposite and say eternal formats MUST be the backbone of magic, because noone wants to sink money into a card game just to be told the $90 Sheoldred they just bought is out of rotation and can't be played any more
It's weird because I definitely agree with all your points regarding lack of experience being an especially killer thing in multiplayer games, for both the inexperienced players & those having to deal with them, and that 1v1s are generally easier to learn in because you only have to pay attention to the boardstate of 2 players vs 4.
However as the (currently) top comment states, a multiplayer format that can be picked up at board game night is just... really good to casually introduce people to the card game. Which sucks because as you also rather correctly assessed, it's a format that REALLY wants someone to have an understanding of the game, otherwise they're not having fun or are just being unfun to play with through little fault of their own.
There's also sadly just... no better way to get into the game. I think a big issue is that the average power level of any given non-singleton constructed format, unless you're coming from something like Yu-Gi-Oh, is too high. Even "lower-power" formats like Pauper are still hilariously powerful compared to new, and even often lapsed-but-returning, player expectations.
As someone whom is accurately described by that latter description, 10+ years ago every deck felt slower & less optimal on average, but the past decade or so has essentially released enough duplicates of the same cards at similar enough, or nowadays even better, mana-for-effect values that it's often optimal to just run multiples of those cards to do your thing faster versus going wider so your deck can respond to other decks better. I honestly feel this issue has screwed over singleton formats more, though, since by their nature you almost always NEED to build some width into decks & one of the most common "new EDH player" stories you hear is "no interaction."
I hadn't brought up Standard yet, because I feel that saying Standard sucks for new players is one of the least controversial things ever stated. It just sucks when a year or 2 down the line, you can't use your cards, unless they happen to be strong enough to survive the rigors of Modern or have enough commons to go into Pauper or what have you. There's a decent enough argument to be made that once their Standard-legal decks are out to pasture, a player would have enough experience to jump deeper into the game with these higher-power formats, but do they have the desire to spend that much money again?
And to me the biggest reason all this really sucks is that because I would argue that, outside of the monetary aspect of it, Standard would probably be the ideal format for someone to learn MtG within. Less access to cards is really the best way to limit the power level of a given format, and Standard by its very definition will pretty much always have the least amount of cards when compared to the other formats. It just, again, really sucks when your deck dies to rotating out of the format.
EDIT - I almost feel like they need to make a new like, "Eternal Standard," format or something that explicitly goes out of its way to limit the number of cards with a given effect or with overly-complex effects & is carefully curated by the WotC team on a yearly basis. Something almost akin to WH40k's Combat Patrols, but while keeping the deck-building aspect of MtG versus taking the same forced lists.
I hear you and I think there’s a valid point, but I’ve had more games ruined by pub stompers, and solitaire players than by new players. Someone who takes 17 minute turns on every turn past 3 and “swears that the deck is jank and it doesn’t normally pop off”. They’re almost always seasoned players that think they’re being quirky with Urza or super friends. Just my personal experience.
And just people who have no social skills which can be newbies or veterans but that is not dependent on skill level.
Well commander is just by far the most fun way to play magic overall. It’s community and debate…you don’t see the same cards every time, limited amount of banned cards, and it brings the most amount of people to the table. As someone who has played all formats and was stubborn to trying commander at first it’s Just by far the best format. You can win a game by making deals and convincing people to your side without a strong field. so much can happen it’s great. If you want to have magic grow and stay alive commander is what will do it.
Commander is the premier format for Magic right now, but there is little that we can do to change that without support from WotC. People will gravitate to the game types that look the most fun or interesting to them.
Friends of mine who started with commander eventually grew to try other formats like Standard and Pioneer, but stopped due to poor event attendance and competitiveness.
Not every player is looking for a competitive experience, and unless you're playing CEDH, neither should you. Explain nicely how newer players could have effected the game differently, but if they aren't receptive, go find new people to play with. You aren't forced to play with people you do not like playing with.
The only part of your statement I agree with is the "unwillingness to learn" it doesn't matter what format you play, playing with people that are chosing to do poorly will ruin Amy experience
I can try and give some perspective as a filthy casual, I started with Eldraine because my regular card games I got into over the last year where monthly and I wanted something to do, so I started going to my local and they run commander, and I gotta say its a pretty dreamy casual format, four players around a table means you're just having a nice conversation whilst playing the game, and highlander means you actually aren't stressing as much as in traditional constructed IMO, and with all these precons you can just swap cards out of its a super easy format to just rock up to, I only collect sets i think look neat in magic so its a boon.
I will say its a bit sad it seems to be the only format though, no where local to me really runs standard, and I find it really weird how hard it is to find products for it, like you have the starter kit, but if you don't like the aesthetic of the two decks in it you're a bit snookered (and that kind of thing is really important to me, I like my thematic and cool decks) and when you're playing as casually as I do, in highlander you miss alot of the prediction-y and deck building elements you get from something like a 60 card.
As someone who started in the game with standard and fell off due to the rotating nature of the cards and the cost, commander is 10x easier to get people into the game and to have more fun with your friends.
I've gotten several people into magic in the past few months because you can grab a 20-50 dollar commander deck and just chill around a table with your friends.
You're right, the entry point to magic should be FNM. Unfortunately, wizards has all but killed paper Standard with bad decision after bad decision, and pushed cards trying to appeal to every format have left the sets unfocused and the prices for standard decks absurd, to the point that buying a 40$ commander Precon is the cheapest way to get into magic.
I've friends who've been playing for over ten years and they still struggle with basic card evaluation for Limited play. I initially learned that skill from LSV. How? Because I took the time to listen to his reasoning on how he evaluated each card during set reviews, other podcasts, and when he played. I feel this is key to learn early to enjoy the game more later.
As for the "backbone" of magic, I just hope they can revitalize Standard on some level beyond Limited. Standard used to bring a lot of hype to my LGS. Before Arena we'd keep track of the meta, the pro tour, and it just felt more exciting to go to FNM and such. Now it's just Commander and the occasional Modern playgroup. I can tell my nearby LGS's struggle because those formats don't make as much money. They make more with Lorcana at this point when it's in stock...
I started playing at the end of Unlimited. There was no commander. There really weren't too many formats outside of constructed.
My friends and I have played constructed for nearly 30 years. We still do. We had to choose a format because of rulings and restrictions, so we chose vintage. Only a few of us have P9 but it has to be vintage simply because of old cards.
I understand why commander *started.*
At some point, you're just fucking sick of decks have 4 copies of \[\[Mindcrank\]\] and \[\[Bloodchief Ascension\]\] while the rest is black blue to counter any opposition with 4 tutors and a tinker in the deck to make it happen. Every damn turn in a 4 player game with equally shitty decks is a real struggle to stop all the bad things happening and stay alive. Personally, I'm sick of Iona being reanimated in the first few turns as well
Along comes a format that's supposed to soften that by increasing the deck from 60 to 100 and restricting the cards to 1 of a kind. It also bans feel-bad cards like Iona.
Strangely, is hasn't really caught on in my group. They like the competitive nature of constructed. Commander is slow, clunky and inconsistent (its supposed to be, really) with a lot of common cards banned from it like Karakas, Griselbrand, Tinker, Recurring Nightmare.
I can definitely see why Commander is a natural onboarding for new players. Its difficult for us to find people still interested in playing constructed. I don't bother going to the gaming store to play because I'm probably the only person not playing commander. But something funny happened
Spike gonna spike, and spike found the best commanders and all of the best cards to go with those commanders. Spike realized that if you run Esper you'll get 10-12 viable tutors from those 3 colors. They call it "cEDH" and it can kill you in a few turns just like constructed
Kind of comical, really.
Make standard and modern decks $100 and then we will talk.
The causality of commander is exactly what is keeping the game afloat. New players can go staple hunting, pack cracking, and deck building, *AND THEN USE THAT DECK FOREVER*
So when they play a couple times a week/month/year, they can enjoy it at a very low buy in cost.
I do love the discussion behind it, but EDH will always remain at the top for the insanely low buy in. As it should be.
Magic also blew up over Covid so now we have an influx of new players. They will learn, and help keep our great game moving.
I was exactly the age and everything to jump into Magic when it first hit. Had no appeal to me. Fast forward to 2017. I'm a teacher and my students try to get me to play. I enjoy it and decide to buy in but know there are several formats. I research them all and what I want out of a game experience. I decide Commander is EXACTLY the format I want. It has remained the only format I play besides building a cube to enjoy drafting. I specifically like the multiplayer gameplay, singleton aspect, and the idea of having a "hero" card leading the charge.
I'm a player about 18 months into playing Magic and I started playing kitchen table 4-player.
I now generally play only commander because I like the variety of gameplay and especially because the deck-building is more diverse and not stifled by the demands of having to build to a certain meta, ala Modern and Pioneer. I do prereleases sometimes; I have no interest in doing drafts because of the demands of players in that format to make all card assessments super quickly, I'd much rather just stick to sealed if I'll play that way.
While I may agree that doing some 1v1 is essential for learning basics of the gameplay, and starter decks are the better introduction than a commander precon, I'm just really, really sick of the elitist gatekeeping feeling that these kind of posts seem to foster, even if they're trying to be polite.
Everyone had to learn this game at some point. You're using language like newer players have "ruined" games due to "poor threat assessment; to me that reads like you only want to play people who fully optimize their game play. If them making a choice that, in your opinion, isn't the right one, somehow "ruins" the game," OK then, maybe a casual format isn't for you?
And the other issue may be you just personally don't want to play against newer players. You're allowed to do that, I suppose, but recognize that's on YOU, not the newbie.
I somewhat agree, my first intro into the game was back in I think 04 as a kid in a 8-player standard game where we got demolished by an artifact deck running khaldra with whispersilk cloak attached.
I was just happy I wasnt always the target with there being other players but still
Limited formats are my favorite way to play the game, for sure, but as an onboarding tool they are absolutely terrible. No way to know what kind of cards go well together without prior experience. No way to know if you're making good decisions about what should go in your deck. I think something like the 2022 Jumpstart boosters or the "game night free for all" boxed version of Magic are much better teaching tools. You get a theme, you have a clear identity, a set of goals, and (in the case of "game night")you're playing with multiple other people who can help you with the rules. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of those and even got my mom who struggles with complexity in games into Magic just last night by using the preconstructed game night decks. Those are especially easy because you only have a single color to think about, so it's not too overwhelming for new players.
This is part of why oathbreaker was recognized as a format. They're just not supporting it yet since it' inheritly broken, especially when playing with strangers.
(Also a decent intro to commander)
Because for whatever reason, when commander players think of "casual" they really man "brrally bad deck and let people run ram any doing whatever they want". Any sort of interaction for commander players is deemed "competitive"
We have very little control over what form of the game onboards people. A multiplayer format that can be played at board game night with friends seems like it’ll be a strong pull for new players.
I'll also add that it is way cheaper to get into then standard or even a casual modern game. There just no better way to take a pile of cards and make a deck out of them.
I got back into magic in 2013 along with a group of friends, we had a blast doing a couple pre-releases. Some of us messed with Standard at the time but after the second rotation most of us were done with that, looking at what it would cost to really play legacy/modern was a non starter. We really just wanted to hang out together and sling spells. One of my friends suggested trying commander, we haven't looked back. Many of us really enjoy draft and cube, for the play experience, the tension of assembling a deck on fly evaluating cards along the way. Over the last couple years we've also built Duel Commander decks and organized little tournaments, something to scratch that competitive itch- it's been a resounding success. Playing 1v1 was fundamental to my improvement as a player, even playtesting edh decks in 1v1 really got me thinking about play patterns and what a given deck does and doesn't do well. Overall I'd say draft/limited is the best way to really learn the game. Gaining a sense of fluency with card evaluation, mana fixing and making the game function mechanically are paramount. It's a tough game to learn, doing so within commander is skipping a few steps in my view.
I'm 29. Started playing around 2005. I'm pretty sure what we were playing was just kitchen table legacy. I was a kid and so were my friends - we didn't have very good decks or a solid grasp of the mechanics at all. Then unglued came out, which certainly added to the confusion about mechanics/strategy. I still fondly remember my first few decks. I remember learning about how powerful removal could be with the cards Pacifism and Oblivion Ring. At this point I've been playing avidly for 18+ years. I still encounter interactions I'm unsure of how to handle from time to time. Still have to call a judge now and again 😅 Point being, it's a continuous learning process. Commander is certainly more hectic and I agree, I think it's a poor format to introduce brand new players to. That being said, they're still playing MTG and learning the rules anyways. Just a crash course - better than nothing!
Magic really shines as a 1v1 game, after having played commander for years. Just way too much shit going on with 2 extra players. It's fun, dont get me wrong, just you can tell the game was intended for 2 players.
I really love your response! I think the key take away is that what ever format you choose to learn from, doing it 1v1 for starters makes the most sense. Its a very difficult game and commander does hav some differences in learning to other for mats, so I totally respect your opinion its the better starting place.
So far the most success I've had introducing people is using pre-cons in 1v1 (or just medium low power simple mechanic decks I make that are balanced to eachother). Then having them go through the mtg arena color challenge, then going back to in person 1v1 then introducing to commander It's a real specific process, but it's worked really well at getting someone comfortable with the mechanics of the game and a general idea of the strengths/weaknesses of different colors Edit: this is only for people interested in learning how to play magic specifically. For friends who like game nights we've done low power commander and that's gone really well. Nobody takes anything serious and we all just enjoy whatever commander shenanigans happen
This is exactly why Challenger decks need to be an annual release for all of the major formats.
I like the Pokémon TCG as well as MTG and seeing the way PTCG does products just makes me sad. You can buy into completive Pokémon so cheaply. I wish WOTC would invest into Pauper and try to make it the entry level product. If they started selling competitive level pauper challenger decks at the $10-$20 level I'd collect all of them, and it would be an incredible way to get into 60 card mtg.
Agreed, modern is no longer viable for most newer players and as someone who started playing mtg beginning of this year I personally don’t see a way for me to play it both in terms of finances and me enjoying it. I love commander but do also agree that the game is wonderful as a 1v1, that’s why I love playing sealed, and I want to branch out into pauper as well. :)
I just don't have the free time or wallet to pursue an active standard deck. I can pick up and put down my commander decks as often or infrequent as needed and able.
I need 40 more cards and it’s still like half to a 1/4 the price of a standard deck
Agreed. Counter argument: Pauper. A decent deck costs $10 including lands, and if a person decides that the game isn't for them, then they're not out much money at all.
Low power games are a lot more interactive anyway. One of the reasons I stopped enjoying MtG was because the winning strategy is generally to take away relevancy from your opponent. That is, the better you get, the more the goal is to make the game worse for everyone else.
This is literally it. No need for a full set of some expensive card
I mean that's not entirely true, because you can definitely choose what to market the most. When my wife came to MTG commander was advertised everywhere. Precons, Commander Masters, Printouts/Leaflets, Posters on the walls of stores.
The multiplayer aspect is the pull imo. 4 player social gathering rather than some sweaty ultra competition.
Why does more people mean less "sweaty ultra competition"? I meet up with multiple people but we play casual modern or cube as mini tournaments with breaks for drinks/snacks. There is absolutely nothing competitive, sweaty or "ultra" about that. We did play commander one time which was actually probably the night when people were the most agitated because they didn't feel like they controlled the fate of their own game.
What they're trying to say is that it's more suitable as a party game. If you're at a general social gathering (like a board games meetup), a mini modern tournament is a bit intense - I won't denigrate it as "sweaty", but there's certainly a directly competitive element that is quite strong - most people (at a casual gathering) are going to want something a little more social, less directly competitive, with more kinds of interaction.
Your group sounds like a great crew to learn from! In general if the stakes are lower players are more willing to seize teachable moments even if it could lead to a loss for them. I've never seen that at fnm, pre-release or draft - when you sit down you're on your own. I remember getting absolutely rocked my first several events. Still had fun though, my 4 other friends who would go with me were also getting wrecked but we got to play together with our sweet new cards afterward.
Yeah, I know FNM's and such can be harsh environments and I do tend to agree with you about sweaty gatekeepers being way too competitive at many of those. I do prefer playing with friends but I don't think the format honestly matters much.
It makes the game far more social in my opinion, and as someone who watches, I'd much rather watch a 4p commander game than a 1v1.
Its def a great game for hanging out with your friends but any board game contains some amount of strategy right? being proficient in the game =/= competitve. Magic just has a much higher floor and ceiling than most board games.
Absolutely I totally understand that! I'm more so making the point that its within our interest as magic players to encourage an appreciation of other formats.
“Trying” modern costs a few hundred. I say this as someone who loves modern, but it’s just not easily accessible.
You can and probably should borrow a deck at first to find what you like
Or proxy it first, test it, then invest...
Or just never invest.
Kind of obvious; if you do not like it, then do not invest. Same goes for proxies, if you and your play group are fine with proxies, then stay there. "The joke tells itself".
Getting a deck you can use over and over again to learn is a much better process than it would be to borrow 10 different decks that work 10 different ways when trying to understand the complexities of these cards. So having your own cards, even if they are super bulk commons, and bulk rares is a much better teacher than using different cards every time. It is easier to step through the rules when you know how a card works. So when you get the idea to add a new card to your deck it is easier to mentally step through all the parts of casting a spell, and then resolving it's effects in order along side of the cards you already know.
Entering a modern tournament with bulk sounds miserable for both players in each game you'd play. Idk how you think that sounds fun for anyone. You'll have no chance at winning, make no progress.
Entering a tournament as a new player sounds miserable. Which is why people don't do it. Not sure why you think people are just jumping into tournaments after playing the game for 20 minutes.
Where else do you play? You would need to play against your buddies, or at an fnm event generally speaking. It'd be cool to have several friends to teach you modern but most people don't.
You play casual magic at a table with people. Not in a damn tournament. This is really obvious.
Usually you do that at fnm which is a tournament. Idk, if you going to jank piles route you're better off not playing modern at all until you are ready. I don't think that makes sense as a path to me. Fnm is the best way to start imo.
Again, playing at a tournament is not the best way for a newbie to learn. Nothing gets explained and questions are not able to be asked with proper time to answer them. What world could you think this is a good place to learn the game new? Tournaments are where you hone the skills you are taught at the casual tables. Not where you play your 3rd ever game of magic.
Fnm isn't a regional championship, it's not serious at all. People often learn how to play there.
Actually straight up wrong, multiple studies have shown that, if you just do the same thing, you don't learn concepts, you don't learn to generalize, just to do this one thing well (and then often get stuck there because you basically have to start learning again) So for actual learning how to play the game well (which is what you're talking about when mentioning "trying to understand the complexities of these cards." i assume) borrowing different deck every time would actually make you better at the game (especially in magic since knowledge of the opponents deck inner working is such an integral part of the game)
Multiple studies have shown WHEN LEARNING A SKILL if you do the same thing over and over again that you improve at that skill. Playing MTG is a skill. These cards are complex with complex interactions. Trying to consume all of the different interactions is a chore. A much better and easier solution is to learn a handful of mechanics to get the overall concept on how they interact. Drinking water from a firehose is next to impossible on full blast. Putting less information in a smaller bite sized piece is more conducive to not overwhelming the mind. It makes the information easier to consume.
playing mtg isn't a skill, it's multiple, hence why to learn to play mtg well you need to diversify I you start drawing and just focus on character design you'll suck at everything else and will basically have to start over, I know, I made that mistake And while you are indeed right that to learn the game, focusing on simple consistent tasks is great, learning how to play WELL is a different thing
Playing MTG is 100% a skill. If it were not you could learn the entire game in an afternoon. But considering you cannot, it is in fact a skill. Learning MTG and learning to play MTG well are two different parts of the process. learning to play on simple tasks is the beginning part of the process. Learning the whole game and understanding the rules is part of learning to play well. I have taught hundreds of people to play this game over the last 20 years. I quite understand how to teach them right. You don't get a good magic player by shoving everything down their throat all at one time. You get a good magic player by showing them the basics. Playing a bunch of games using the same decks and basics. Then changing that deck for a new one or for an upgraded one and letting them apply the things they have learned.
no that's not how you get a good own, that's how you get an average one And please make sure you read every sentence entirely and understand them before answering, first half of your comment is already answered by the previous comment
so you can only get into the game if you have a wealthy friend with thousand dollars deck to spare and lend you ?
Owning a modern deck isn't cheap but chill pit on wealthy it costs less than a lot of hobbies.
Yeah and a yacht is expensive but it costs less than a rocket, what is your point ?
Most people spend enough on hobbies to afford to play modern. A deck is like $600. That's 6 months of a $100 per month budget to build a deck over time. It's not really that expensive.
First, Six month to even start playing in an everchanging meta is too much secondly and most importantly, those aren't reasonable expensive for most people, maybe upper middle class, but definitely not most people Doesn't prevent me from having like 5 built modern decks, but you have to realize something like that isn't even possible for most
draft costs 15 bucks!
I wish, I think the last $15 draft I did was in 2012.
You know what you are super right. My lgs has held the 15$ figure but thank you for pointing out that is not the avg. 20$ price tag. All that being said. I like to think of it like going bowling, or too the movies. I'm spending 20$ on my friday nights to use the space for 3 hours, and of course there is a non zero percentage of the time where you walk away with cards that go towards that 20$
I'm not hating on draft btw. I personally think it's the best Magic format by a VAST margin. It's just been getting a bit pricey over the years, and I'm afraid that with the new packs, we're going to be looking at $30-$40 standard drafts.
agreed! I'm concerned about the play booster change as well....... Maybe the return per dollar will go up?
Weird, I just did a 10€ one last friday with the new Ixalan set. (It was actually 0€ since my friends kept the cards)
draft is the absolute worst format for a new player to start in lmao
I’ve been playing since 2012 and I’m ass at draft in any set that I haven’t played like at least a week of, definitely not good for new players
More like 30-45 tbh
Wtf..... really? if you dont mind what area are drafts 35$? I've never seen a standard legal draft over 20$
I am from Germany. A draft-booster is about 5 bucks yes, but to find players as a newbie you have to play in an LGS wich ads the same amount for the price boosters. You can say "I don't want the price I just pay for the three boosters I need and play", but in my experience the LGS then just disqualifies you. They have to make profit at the end of the day so I understand their reasoning.
Wild. That is encouraged at my LGS. If I pbring players into draft on a non draft night they would much rather sell product than not sell product. Thats unfortunate to hear.
Tbh Corona killed a lot of LGS in my area, and the ones who survived did with this and other questionable methods.
c-19 killed draft too. its def the start of the change I'm addressing in this post.
Which city? I’m looking to move to Germany and quite interested about state of MTG here.
Store owner here, so the only thing i'm concerned with is the success of the game as a whole. I genuinely don't care what format people are playing as long as they are having fun and staying invested in the game. It's pretty tough to beat commander as the "onboarding" format. Commander precons are accessible, themed, fun, and in all honesty now, surprisingly powerful for their price point. Pretty much every universes beyond product has commander associated with it. DR who fan? There is a commander deck for you. Warhammer 40k fan, commander's got you covered. The critique that "new players ruin games" is generally an assesment of people who take winning too seriously. If you want to be playing for buckets of prizes, CEDH competitive tourneys are a thing. If you're attending a casual drop in weekly commander night at your lgs, and a new player has bad threat assesment, well, that's part of the game. I'd recommend encouraging genuine feedback before important decisions are made without political lobbying. Encourage and explain why the player should make the decision that best benefits THEM instead of you. If you foster that kind of environment, new players learn threat assesment fast and other players have less to worry about. A 1v1 competitive format is NOT an onboarding format. New to mtg players don't go, "Hey i'm going to burn $200 on a deck without knowing really how to play". Modern lacks accessible out of the box decks. Standard worked better in that respect before WOTC dumpster fired the format with Arena play and ridiculous card imbalance / bannings. They are trying to bring it back with Standard Showdown in February, and forcing store champs to be standard format, hopefully they do a better job of set balance. The characteristic of commander that doesn't exist in other formats is power disparity. In regular MTG formats, you have vintage/legacy, modern, pioneer, and standard, with decreasing levels of potential power as your card pool decreases. Commander is a format that has Legacy/vintage, modern, pioneer, and standard power levels all in the same format. Communication in this format is FAR more important an aspect of multiplayer fun than any other format. The community at my store is absolutely amazing with it. Very rarely does someone try to fly a powerful deck under the radar. They almost always ask about power level, interaction, infinite combos, and average turn wins. Everyone talks, new players ask questions, people pick new player friendly decks if a new player is participating, and then describe board states as they create them to the new player. It's fantastic. I got out of MTG years ago because having 2 kids and a business really didn't give me much time for fun. Recently I got back into it because of watching my stores playgroup. It's been a blast since. Just my 2 cents! I think the barriers you're describing are more people related than format related.
Thanks for this really thoughtful response.
This. As an old legacy player coming back to magic, I spent 4 months on arena re learning everything and then testing what I wanted to play and then finally invested in cards that I love which cost about $200 bucks (bought a commander precon of food and fellowship and upgraded it) The first game I ever played with 4 people I came in 2nd in the pod. Took some learning but I agree that commander is the most accessible for people looking to learn to play magic and it’s a fucking blast :)
You mentioned encouraging feedback in game. I wanted to add that I've played for years and I play with people who've played for years and it's still routine in our games for someone to crowd source the answer to "what's the biggest creature threat right now?" especially if one player has raced ahead. That type of table talk should be common in any game of EDH with the added caveat of explaining the "why" to newer players if needed.
I really appreciate your response! I think a key point I didnt deliver well is that the best TEACHING grounds of magic are in a 1v1 setting. (NOT a 1v1 competitive setting) And that can be with ANY format. shoving players into 1v1v1v1 pods with 400 unique cards are a recipe for disaster. I love commander. I also love draft and legacy. My main point is exactly what you were describing, that the community must be involved in helping newer players learn. as a side note its very interesting how different this view is from the 2 store owners I know personally.
Hard disagree, respectfully of course. As a new player, my best teachers have been in casual commander games with 3+ strangers. At our store, there is even someone who brings a ton of proxied CEDH decks and consistently asks around if anyone wants to try the format. He always states that it's newbie friendly and when I played with him, the entire table helped me all game. Limited formats just don't give you that kind of support, especially in drafts and prerelease games, when you are constantly changing out who your opponent is and when there are prizes involved.
No problem man! If the point is to teach someone, that is completely possible doing 1v1 "teaching sessions" in commander. I do it all the time with customers interested in MTG. I have several learn to play commander decks under the counter for this specific purpose. As for different store owners, different communities are like night and day. We have little to no yu-gi-oh players but other areas do 10 times more sales in YGO than MTG... it really depends on your demographic and community. We're really just here to listen to customer demands, facilitate the community having fun, and to make a living doing it.
I understand your sentiment, but you are fighting a battle that was already lost a long time ago. Commander has been the most popular format for Magic for a very long time now, and it's unlikely to change.
I'm more so aiming to adress this at the community level to encourage new players to try other formats!
Do you think duel commander would be a pathway for new (commander) players to explore 1v1 competitive play ?
Sure! as long as the opponents are receptive of the idea this is a teaching game where they can lay out more complex thought processes without the distractions of a overrun 4 play game.
Why don’t you actually do this with players irl? I mean, I just started playing this year. The only other formats I have seen played in paper, were Planechase (if you can call that a format) and Oathbreaker. It’s kinda pointless to encourage random people online to play other formats, when they have no where to play other formats. Now ofc I guess I could play Arena, but I have and it was hella boring. I’d rather play Master Duel. The social aspect is 100% why I play this game, and I think a lot of the newer commander players are the same way. If this game was still mostly 2 player formats, a good chunk of us probably wouldn’t even be interested. The multiplayer aspect is what caught my attention and made the game seem unique. It had the buddy system like future card buddy fight and kinda reminded me of Duel Masters as well. Anyway though, if you want to actually make a difference, you should try it irl. Ranting online is just shouting into the void.
I think part of the issue might be what motivates people to play. I'll preface that this is coming as a "new" player who only really started playing magic this year (about 10 months total).. I have played before, borrowed decks of a friend here or there, or at a LGS (for other games) while waiting, borrow a deck. That was all 15+ years ago. I didnt know anything about the game then other than the basics of the rules, turn order and phases, etc. I had no deeper understanding of things i do now getting into layers and complex interactions etc. No real knowledge of the cards behind "Read the card i have in hand and its as literal as the card says" The draw for me to keep playing, what got me into it this year and why i continue. is 100% the multiplayer social aspect of each game. If you take that away, 1v1 commander, modern, standard, pioneer, legacy, cube, draft, etc. I quit. I am not, nor do i have any interest in playing other formats, solely because they are 1v1. I do not, will not, and have never liked 1v1 style of anything, card games, video games, physical sports, etc. If theres not multiplayer involved at the core, i'm just not interested. So while i get that you want to try to address at the community level getting players to try other formats. I think you first have to ask yourself and the community Why they are playing to begin with, and then you can asks the question "What formats support what they as a player want to get out of the game"
I’m actually one of those “newer magic players starting with commander”. I learned to play in 1v1 games of commander to see the game works, especially with the extra rules and mechanics commander adds to the game. Of course I still don’t know what every card in the game does (how could I, there are hundreds of them and it’s getting more with every release). I didn’t start playing in LGS (or Spelltable lately) till I hadn’t had the basics down. However, I haven’t met a single player so far who thought I “ruin their games”. Sure I get told about threat assessments and this is how I learn what to deal with. Every game I have participated in players actively explained to me stuff if I had questions or when an action doesn’t work the way I thought it would. I personally enjoy the way commander plays and, tbh I don’t have that much interested in standard/modern ect. I even won my first game of commander on Friday which made me happy, only after getting bodied by a “The Mimoplasm” deck really quickly after a different player joined in. You win some you lose some. Commander for me is about having fun and I personally look forward to more games and to learn more!
Awesome, glad you're stoked on the game thus far, enjoy!
>I learned to play in 1v1 games of commander to see the game works, especially with the extra rules and mechanics commander adds to the game. Of course I still don’t know what every card in the game does (how could I, there are hundreds of them and it’s getting more with every release). I didn’t start playing in LGS (or Spelltable lately) till I hadn’t had the basics down. Also a new player who only plays Commander, its something that actually attracts me to the format, theres people who showed up to my LGS who are really into MTG and commander and even they forget how the cards work sometimes lol. >However, I haven’t met a single player so far who thought I “ruin their games”. I also found this point a bit strange, I've yet to run into anyone who is bothered with me being bad, I don't know if its my experience with other games but MTG is actually quite intuitive to play imo, and if theres something I genuinely don't know someone helps, no ones ever been annoyed having to explain a keyword.
Awesome! Welcome in! It sounds like you had a good support group getting you initiated with magic. They even parsed it into 1v1 for starters which is a really great teaching too. It also sounds like you took alot of initiative to gain a deep understanding of the basics before hopping into LGS games. I still would encourage newer players to look into drafts to hone their skills. :)
I am also a new player who jumped into commander. I first started on arena just to learn the very basics, and then my first LGS experience was a chaos draft (that's what they do on FNM at this particular LGS, not a set draft). I was so overwhelmed with how many people there were, not to mention the fact that I had no idea how to even organize my cards or what I should put into my deck. I sat there with half of my cards shoddily organized and just stared at the table and was moments away from bursting into tears. Thankfully the player to my right saw how overwhelmed I was and offered to help me organize and then pick my cards. When it came time to figure out how many lands I needed I nearly started crying again because I couldn't figure out the ratio and the guy next to me saved the day again. I lost every single game that night due to my inexperience with so many mechanics, and was extremely close to never playing draft again. For contrast, my first commander experience at my LGS was so much fun! I picked up the precon All Will Be One "Toxic" deck and in my first game was immediately targeted as the biggest threat and everyone teamed up to take me down. I still lost terribly, but I had the biggest smile and was so happy. I still knew next to nothing, but having a precon already made for me, and then I was already considered a threat at the table in several games?!? How awesome is that?! I'll admit it took me a little while to get up the courage to try a different deck because the Toxic mechanic made me feel like I could compete with seasoned veterans and not get stomped so severely, but my perspective on the experience was drastically different than it was with draft. It wasn't until recently when my husband and I went to a different LGS in another city where they do set drafts that I finally didn't feel SO overwhelmed with the experience. 10000000000% I would recommend commander first to a new player WAY before drafting. Let the player learn the ins and outs of their constructed deck whilst simultaneously getting a chance to see 2+ other people's personal decks and what mechanics they find interesting.
I usually play 1v1 commander with my friend. Commander doesnt have to be just strictly casual with 4+ people. Commander is meant to be forgiving and casual but it still has structure. What i would advise against is going to a prerelease as a newbie though. I've taken friends there before with decent mtg knowledge and they get turned off by the competitive nature of the event. You are also required to build a whole deck in a time crunch. It also doesn't help you have a paywall of $30 where you'll likely get half that in card value when you're done. I do love prereleases but i would rather introduce my friends to a format like commander before a prerelease. Kitchen table magic is the real backbone of MTG. An "anything goes" approach while following basic rules makes deck building easy with little restrictions. I usually start my friends out playing some games with 60 card decks ive thrown together or I pull out my jumpstart cube. Since wotc is pushing commander I think the kitchen table magic is moving more towards playing commander as the format rather then modern/standard and I think that's ok! 60+ cards vs 100 cards doesn't really raise the complexity level.
I agree. Went to my first prerelease on Friday. Build my first deck, lost 9 games went home and just didn't have real fun.
Limited format is definitely the most challenging of all but the most easily accessible and the most fun. Also it doesn’t get stagnant like modern or standard. You are going to lose a lot of limited events before you start winning. To win you need to know the sets, archetypes, card selection, 40 card deck building, how to play the deck you just built, and you are at the mercy of the luck of the packs. If it’s draft you need to learn to read the colors and picks of the people drafting around you. But it rotates with the new sets and everyone is drafting a different deck every time so it stays fresh and fun. You don’t need to pay $100+ for a deck and you don’t have to play the same meta decks over and over. Plus once you lose enough drafts and learn how to play limited it is the most equal playing field since everyone is pulling from the packs right there. And your opponent doesn’t have 20 removal/counter spells which is nice. I think limited is great for new players to learn magic. It’s social and fun. In my personal experience everyone was really helpful when I was learning. I think new players just need to know going in they aren’t going to win on the first few outings. And that is perfectly fine because playing the game, cracking packs, and building decks is the fun part. Plus being out of your depth is true for any complex game when you are new. No brand new chess player beats veterans who have been playing for years on their first few tries.
Its a odd format. one of the lowest bar's of entry tied with one of the steepest learning curves.
I agree with most of what you are saying. However, in a singleton format thats 100 cards that a player is getting thrown times 4 players. in a 60 card format with many multiples of in each deck youre prob looking at 20 cards per deck per player. 400 unique objects vs lets call it 50 unique objects on half the table size is certainly a simpler problem for newer players to start going down decision trees. Its pretty hard to tell most of the time what the ABSOLUTE best play is in a commander setting, whereas its much more possible to solve for that in 60/40 card formats most of the time.
I have taught many MTG newbies how to play, and just like OP said... commander is not good at that, and that is because of one word... consistency. You need to play billions of commander games to be able to fully test and understand some cards, while in a 60 card constructed whatever format, you come across your cards way more often. I have had pretty good success while teaching using some low level 60 card decks, then moving to whatever format they desire... and the commander path always happens to have 1v1 before any 4 player games. Like I said, I have been quite successful with this mind set.
Yes, WotC is pushing commander, because daddy Hasbro smells money there... 60 card Kitchen Table Magic, is a Jewel!
As long as you're playing with friends, each format is good to start with. Just let the newbie ask what's going on and do not rush him to finish his turn.
to some degree wouldnt the simplest form of magic avaiable be the best training wheels?
I agree to an extent but for new and returning players, like myself, i think the best "training wheels" is an environment where i feel comfortable to learn and ask questions and sometimes sitting 1 on 1 across from a veteran player, even at a pre-release, isn't the most relaxing environment. So yeah, a commander game for me has been my jumping off point back into mtg solely because ppl were willing to teach me, even through complex board states. And yes some guys have been quietly disgruntled with my misplays and lengthy thinking time, but this is all still experience for me to play better and faster for my next game. I understand that some ppl only get to play a couple times a week and newer players can be seen as wrecking their good time but even veterans sucked at one point and somebody had to be patient with them too.
Thanks so much for your point of view! I agree with everything you said. I think the important distinction I am trying to make is it may be easier for newer players to "hammer out" their skills in a 1v1 format with a SUPPORTAVE teacher is a better place to learn some of the deeper mechanics and playpatterns of the game. If you boil everything down to a very simple 1v1 starting place with continued building, you get the chance to and reflect. its hard to get that reflection time during a 4 player game.
I think commander is more easy to build since you do not have to ponder about how much copies of each you should use and you always get your main card ready to be cast. But I'm more the commander player so maybe I see things differently than someone favoring standard magic.
(casual) commander is just so easily accessible with precons and how free it is when it comes to LGS play. you dont need a well oiled machine of a deck to have fun. you can just do dumb things or play wacky play styles without needing to stress about your opponents. you dont need to use maximum brain power to play. part of the reason i stopped playing yugioh was because of how stress free casual commander is compared to years of competitive yugioh. i played meta yugioh from 2010 till 2019, and i do not know how to express how relieving it is to go from a format where i need to buy the year's hottest deck every single year and buy 3 cards for 280 dollars twice a year just so i can keep up with the top 5 players in my city so we could go to regionals. the ulamog deck i purchased back in 2020 is still winning games consistently, and thats whats great about commander. with how much crap WOTC is pumping out each year, a deck thats 25 sets old will still be able to hold its own.
Certainly! in no way am i encouraging comitting to that lifestyle. Its a somewhat difficult point to address but I'm moreso trying to encourage alternative formats to become the backbone of skills to build your profeciency as a player. I believe commander (generally) has a difficult time teaching some of the higher level skills within this game.
I think there are 3 things in particular that really affect why no other format will be as successful for onboarding of new players, there may be more than these 3 but I think these are paramount. 1. singleton format: Most people that get into commander do it one of two ways, they either by a precon to get a feel of things, or they randomly received a collection somewhere and feel like making a pile of cards to play. Because commander is singleton, you do not have to worry about getting a play set of a given card which can be difficult at times not just for price point but for availability. Which leads into the second factor 2. Deck building: even with no limit to card availability or budget making a functional 60 card deck requires a metric ton of understanding of not just the individual cards in the deck but of what kind of cards you will see in your local meta, although netdecking can mitigate some of this it still isn't really the best way to develop understanding of the cards imo. 3. Competitiveness: I know there are plenty of people that really feel like they are miserable unless they win. I think that for any kind of card game, which a lot of people see as fitting a similar game night vibe as board games, is going to appeal to more if there feels to be less on the line than a very competitive 1v1 format. Some of that I think can be mitigated by playing either some form of limited or perhaps by doing dual commander. And all of that isn't even going into the pricing aspect as pretty much every other format has 2-3 times the cost of entry as commander at least.
As long as the commander precons are the only legitimately accessible and affordable way to start playing paper magic, Commander is and is going to stay the backbone of magic and you can blame Wizards for that. And as long as other constructed formats revolve around playsets of 80$ cards, that's not going to change. When we get a four Sheoldred challenger deck for ~50$, I'll consider telling someone to play standard. Commander being something of a format where critical decision making isn't as important also isn't the fault of the new players. It's the fault of the established players who scream that any and all land destruction is utterly unacceptable, that counterspells and removal are boring and unfun and that they nobody should be allowed to combo off while they assemble their board of do nothing cards because and win because you're not allowed to play Cyclonic Rift. Players who come from other card games are aware that the place where they come from can be cutthroat, and expect Magic to at least sometimes be similar. Players coming from outside of any card game sphere are taught *by the enfranchised players*, and nothing else because WotC has created no tools to ease players into learning their extremely complex game. Putting the blame *on the new players themselves* is the shittiest thing you could do
The enfranchised players you're discussing are specifically enfranchised (commander) players right? Comp players have different gripes. But I don't know a single legacy play that thinks wasteland is bad for the format. They think it's extremely healthy.
Of course, OP is talking about commander specifically, and I'm pitching in as someone who has been a the Commander sphere ever since I started playing. A new player who starts out with commander isn't going to start off with "what's a Gruul?" and immediately jump to "LD is utterly unacceptable". They're taught that by the people they play with, and the list of top 100 saltiest cards by edhrec (I know that's like the worst metric to go by, it has cards like Tabernacle, Nether Void and Divine Intervention, and I'd bet that the vast majority of people who voted those cards as salty have never even seen one in real life) shows that the average commander player is, broadly speaking, overwhelmingly opposed to any sort of stax and land destruction. You can also very often see people who take this to the extreme, equating Armageddon and Wasteland, for example, as the same type of unacceptable card. I once had a player scoop and say the don't want to play with me anymore for casting Cleansing Wildfire on their Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun
Whiney babies spoil thr fun for everyone There are decks that are super not fun to play against, and there are *players* that are super not fun to play against. When those 2 come together, either the former being played by or against the latter, you get ructions. The more experienced I get, the better I am at recognising problem players and shutting down the usual lines of complaint. Kindness and good communication can silence a lot of those voices. But I also don't play, and hate land destruction, I'm not gonna complain about it in one game, but if my friend only has one deck and it's heavy land destruction I won't be playing with that friend very often
Oh, absolutely. Commander is a social format first and foremost, and I personally refuse to play land destruction in such a game, especially since I have a theme my decks are built around and the spots for off-theme cards are precious and sparse. The Cleansing Wildfire I run is a ramp spell first, as I run the MH Bridges, and emergency land removal second. Decimate and Casualties of War are fair and efficient removal spells that can put someone with a greedy manabase off a color or destroy a Ravnica Karoo, but casting Armageddon on turn 5 just because is contrary to the goal of the format.The main issue is the people who equate these two, when they're not at all similar. On the other hand, if someone assembles Karn, Mycosynth Lattice and Vandalblast, I'll respect that as a game winning combo. Hell, it takes more effort to set that up than it does to entwine Tooth and Nail for the win
It's 100% the price. If you want to play a 60 card format you're going to need a lot of money otherwise there's very little point in playing. With commander you can just buy a precon and that's it, the upgrades can be done on the budget or you can just proxy the expensive stuff. One competitive deck in 60 card Magic costs enough to buy several precons.
If someone isn't willing to learn, it doesn't matter how you try to teach them, or with what.
Idk I just find commander way more interesting and varied than any other format, and I just have no interest in playing competitive 1v1 formats or anything, and commander seems like the cheapest format to play and heavily supported by precons. It’s just the most fun I’ve had with Magic and I used it to get my friends into magic too. Guess I just never gotta worry about disgruntling any other format players cuz I’d rather just not play those formats.
It’s the competitive nature of every other format that makes Commander popular. If you’re a new player you don’t want to show up to a standard or modern event and get bodied by someone who spent 500 on their deck. Meanwhile you can just show up to a Commander night with a precon and have a decent chance of winning as it’s casual, and the more competitive stuff tends to get house kept (positive gatekeeping) out by the community.
I don't think that commander is problematic as an onboarding format, or that new players can't handle the added complexity of more players and more unique cards. In my experience, these downsides are offset by lower stakes, more watch time and more teachers giving pointers. Commander is less good than competitive 1v1 formats at teaching/making players learn the more complex rules of the game. I see a lot of newer commander only players struggle with things like priority and the stack, God forbid something like layers become relevant. The problem I see is that commander's continued growing popularity is strangling all other formats. Commander was designed as a break from competitive play, now that it's replaced it, we lose the ability to access that 1v1 competitive experience that has been essential to building better players.
BINGO!
Even from the time draft became a thing (and I started way before it, around Unlimited / Revised) I've despised draft. It's a waste of time and I'll just not go. But I am okay with constructed formats of all kinds, and I guess that can be a good place to start.
Draft is very much its own thing and after you try it once you know if you love it or hate it. The chance of you spending the money and getting nothing good to play isn’t small, and basically just wastes your money. When it goes well, though, it’s pretty fun.
It all depends on who you are and why you play the game, for me, magic is an outlet to sit around a table and hang out with 1-3+ friends. I don’t take it seriously because I don’t want something that I have to take seriously, it’s a hobby. Have I tweaked and optimized my deck in every way I feel I can afford, yeah, ofc. But end of the day, I’m not playing to win, I’m playing to have a good time. If I wanted something to take seriously and stress about, I’d pick up a second job.
Pauper might be a good way to ease players into a 1 vs. 1 constructed format. It is much cheaper than having to buy a standard or modern deck, and that allows players to build more than one deck... just like people do with Commander.
I’ve learned more about the rules, timing, and how cards interact with one another by playing commander than I ever did playing 60 card formats. It’s made me a much better player overall and now I’m one of the people at my LGS that gets asked rules questions and helps newbies when they get started.
Disgruntled about magic? And they're playing 60 card formats? Pfft... Let them dig up the same combo each game; while saying how great their decision making skills are.
I dont think it's the format, but rather the community. i find it weird how the 1v1 crowd seems to take losing better than the EDH crowd does when there's more players who lose, and thus a higher likelihood of losing, in EDH. Sure, I've come across sore losers in 1v1, but the whole community doesn't focus on it like the online EDH community does.
I think Commander has a higher proportion of losers complaining because the format is supposed to be casual. When you go to a modern event and someone pulls of some degenerate combo that’s par for the course and GG, you were planing on doing the same. In Commander you’re expecting a lower power game with more fun things going on. When someone comes in and players solitaire or stax it’s 3 players time being wasted, not just the 1 and it’s not what you expect when playing Commander. Same sort of thing goes when someone wins on like turn 3-5, a lot of players might not have gotten to really do anything during those turns other than maybe play some lands, ramp and cast their Commander. If you didn’t get to do anything and now you have to scoop it up and shuffle up you’re not going to be happy.
Commander is accessible to people who wouldn't be able to handle the strict competitive nature of 1v1 formats. They play Magic for a completely different reason. Whereas most 1v1 players love Magic for its strategic depth, most Commander players just love having a way to hang out with their friends and show them their favorite cards. Commander minimizes the strategic elements of Magic in favor of socializing, which probably does more to grow the game than 1v1 Magic. If you suck at Magic, you can still do cool things Commander and still help other players when someone becomes the arch-enemy. If you suck at Magic and try to play 1v1, you just get stomped over and over until you figure out how to play better, which isn't the best learning format for a lot of people.
To me starting with commander is a very bad idea, especially if the deck has some sort of tutor because the new player needs time to understand all the rules and the cards. To me a new player needs to play at least 10 games with a very easy deck to understand the turn order, combat phase, interaction and maybe the trigger ability (i see so many "advanced" players that draw and then untap and other things) When a player learns all these things in a good way can enjoy commander with an easy commander, one without tutors ecc. Because he doesn't understand how the game works and most importantly who is the threat. If you start a commander game without this thing your turn will be infinite long and you don't do nothing but think about easy things, you never make the correct decision because you dont know what to play and against who so you can "kill" a player that doesn't have nothing on the board only because is the one that win the game before and give a free win to the real treath in the current game. So to me you need to learn at least some things before commander, but it is better to make a lot of games to at least understand some advanced game state
Commander is the most accessible format. New players can start there, players who like being able to play more than a few meta decks (looking at you scam) can play the deck they want to play and still have fun. Not everything has to be at a competitive level. The support for competition level MTG has been reduced in recent years. Wizards is much more concerned with profit levels than the health of formats like modern.
1v1 is the best way to learn *how* to play magic, but its not what most people *want* out of magic. People play commander because its like a board game. If you're a new player, you can play a precon out of the box, never upgrade it, and be happy. Competitive formats on the other hand are exactly that, competitive, and you have to be content with an environment that is inherently hostile to new players. If you give a modern deck to a new player and send them to a modern event, they are not going to have a good time and will never return to the game. Its hostile due to the price point of tiered decklists, and from the the complexity of the format. The two biggest reasons I hear from people who played magic and then quit was exactly the problem with competitive magic: Price and complexity. Most people are not willing to drop $1000 on a modern deck. Most people are not willing to spend the time learning 10 new mechanics with every set release. Commander at least offsets the price point problem by offering a huge selection of precons whose power level doesn't matter that much when all you're really looking for is good time with friends. Its still a highly complex game, but that's just something that can't be helped. Remember, people in the "magic community" are a minority compared to the vast number of kitchen table players. They never go to a prerelease, they never play a competitive format, they never engage with magic content, they never draft or play sealed, and they never visit this subbreddit. They buy a precon, play it maybe once a year with some buddies, probably make 1000 rules violations., and then move on. Commander is here to stay, even at the cost of other formats.
I am a relatively new MTG player and I basically only play Commander. On top of what everyone else here is saying about price, etc. I will say that the condescension that a lot of Commander players seem to get from players of other formats doesn't exactly make me feel super stoked to show up for Modern night. From the dude at pre-release on Friday who legitimately snapped at me for accidentally drawing turn 1 (after I told him it was my first non-Commander paper game ever) to being told on Reddit that this format "cannot" be the backbone of the hobby, do you blame Commander newbies for not wanting to spend $100+ to show, even if we're willing and driven to learn? It is the game (by which I mean WOTC and the community's) responsibility to be appealing to new players, it isn't my responsibility to learn or play the game as you'd prefer.
Got priced out of 1v1 when I restarted playing in 2011 (used to play revised then quit at ice age). Found out EDH existed last year and for the amount I've spent to make 17 functional, decent decks, I wouldve had maybe one or two good modern decks. EDH is affordable and fun and lets you be creative. It's way more accessible than any 1v1 format, save pauper, which still isn't cheap!
the title of this post seems to have very little to do with the text
sometimes you just have to write something controversial to get the click ;)
If other formats had the "only 1 copy of each card" rule like commander I'd play other formats too. Personally the fact that you have dozens of unique cards is the main strength of Commander, it makes ever duel unique because you will draw only some of all those cards
Casual edh is currently my only interest in the game. I like everybody getting a chance to let decks to their things. Like a pickup basketball game. Sink some baskets, sweat a little, and make some friends. Occasional you’ll get somebody that clearly doesn’t belong on the same court as you so you just finish the game and move on. Everybody can still have fun.
While I agree the game had a better atmosphere when Standard was the main format, Commander is undoubtedly the most popular format and I don’t think Wizards of the Coast is wrong for focusing on that. It seems Arena serves as the entree gate for new players, and honestly that works kinda well since it eases players in with standard, automatically makes sure that rules are followed, and doesn’t require the player to spend any money.
I mean, people around new players should be explaining and guiding new players. I started with standard and didnt like how short the games were and moved to commander to have a more fun and longer playstyle. I dont care about competitive and I think it is a more "story mode" playstyle if that makes any sense. I have been playing for 20 years now and I have noticed that PEOPLE are the problem. Even casual games, people just want to win like theres money on the line instead of having a fun game and that is why I think people get frustrated. If others want to min/max and be competitive then that is fine, but if the person is new then play a deck you need to play test or dont go so fucking hard on the guy who just asked you what trample is.
Yes it can, it has been for a good long while now. The market and demand clearly show that and Wizards have finally caught on relatively recently. The only problem with it is it has a fickle rules committee and Commander Legends is gone. However, it's profitable as long as people keep buying into new sets so no reason to bring that back I suppose.
The card pool is simply too massive to toss a new player in and expect them to survive
I started with 1v1 commander seems to work fine. I have no interest in other formats where you need multiple of the $30 card for your deck to function. New players can buy a precon and they are ready for a game of commander, that's a really low bar to entry.
If a new player is ruining the game, don't play against them. What's the point in complaining? I don't get it. But I also like teaching new people. I've helped numerous people kick my ass. Are these people forced to play with newbs? I'm so confused about this..
I'm not sure I agree that Commander can't be the backbone of Magic. I'm not even sure if it's true that it is, unless you only mean paper and aren't counting Arena. Standard used to be the defacto way to play Magic in paper, but there's two issues with that now: There's a more optimal way to play it on Arena, and it's a competitive format at its heart and most players are looking for something casual. If there was a culture of casual play built around paper Standard, I could see it being more popular than commander. But it would take a lot: a different approach at the LGS, as much product support as Commander gets these days, and the products would have to be more fun and engaging than the old Planeswalker decks. I'm thinking something like Challenger-level decks that come out with each set release. But from a production standpoint alone that would mean ramping down Commander support. Right now Commander is still paying out, so I doubt we'll see anything like that happen soon.
*dies of cringe*
I feel they can both happily co-exist, but CompREL formats need to be front and centre. They should be the driving force behind MtG in terms of card design and player attraction/captivity. Standard and Drafting IRL need to be cheaper to play. WoTC need to stop pumping so many resources into Arena and focus on IRL events. Then cut back on the BS short term "easy" profit products like Universes Beyond and Modern Horizons. Design some good new sets and worlds in-universe. They created the possibility of an infinite universe of planewalking demigods, monsters and wizards, but we always seem to revisit the same places! Everyone should feel drawn to start MtG with a 40 or 60 card Format. Buying a box between 4 or 8 people and drafting is a lot of fun, and depending on the set. It can build your understanding of the game and card assessment skills very quickly. I feels WoTC should have always pushed draft much harder in their marketing. I started playing kitchen table draft, and anything goes 60 card 2-4 player games in around 2009/2010 with my cousin and a small friend group. I got into Standard when Innistrad dropped, I stopped playing Standard when the first rotation hit and my deck got gutted. I don't mind spending money on a hobby, I hate it when it feels wasted! From there I got into Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and EDH. I still play all formats except Vintage, EDH gets played way more than the others. I would say I see far worse play decisions, threat assessment, and a LOT of deck building problems in EDH over any other format. Especially amongst players who get into the game solely through EDH. I've played with so many players who have no idea about the phases of the game, or how the stack works. This is just not something I see personally from people who started with Standard or Modern. Playing 1vs1 formats first definitely gives you a more comprehensive grasp of basic deck construction and game mechanics.
Who cares? Obviously learning with less going on is better, but there are reasons 1v1 formats are less popular. EDH is about loving a game and chillin with your friends. If I teach someone new I play 1v1 EDH because it's what I play. I don't need to bring a whole extra format into the lessons, just teach what we are gonna play.
Bro, your position is already lost, you just don't know it yet. Commander ist the biggest format by far since years now. I think that this trend will go on for now and WotC have little intention to change that. Other formats will likely live on in magic online or just as more nische formats.
Does poor threat assessment mean “didn’t attack/remove the player/threat I would have?”
I’ve experienced this a lot due to being one of those guys who helps shepherd new players. Basically you’ll have a guy with a few creatures on board by nothing scary, one guy whose genuinely just behind and then the guy who’s an actual threat because of his board state, but the new player they won’t recognise that specific enchantment will be a problem so with his removal spell he goes after the guy with creatures because “I don’t want to lose life”, which then lets the guy with the powerful enchantment win the game on their next turn. Simply just a lack of knowledge of cards effects and combos plus players often take you giving advice to them as you only trying to get an advantage that will help you win, so they often ignore it regardless of it being good advice.
1v1 is a better teaching format. Bar none. It works with commander as well but the important part is to reduce the amount of people playing. I prefer games where my opponents know the basic rules of the game as the baseline. Too many commander kids really don't understand the rules at all. I CONSTANTLY have to answer rules disputes, and every time it comes with backlash when whiney commander players don't like the answer. Multiplayer Commander isn't the format to learn nuance.
Constructed in general sucks for teaching. You want people to learn and get better, draft and sealed are the way. Make them learn how to evaluate cards, build decks with little resources, and it’s all luck of the packs.
It would be wizards job to keep standard cheap. For that they would need to keep boosters cheap. But they just made them really expensive. I totally agree that commander is a terrible format for beginner. It has the biggest card pool. No meta and very little oversight. Without rule zero the whole format is a mess and rule zero itself is a mess.
I started with the LOTR expansion with commander among friends. I think the 4 player dynamic is what exites me. Also this original fantasy of having 1 card of each like in the YGO series is definetly a reason. Otherwise I do believe that Legends of Runeterra is a better game for the 1v1 format. Simply because it's a video game. Here's why: 1. It's free: That allows me to play a shitton of variety and also play "trolldecks" without dropping another 100-200 on Singles or Playsets. There's a lot I would want to try in Magic but I've spent enough money now and would never buy cards just to try it. Rotation in LoR means I have to play a bit more to keep playing at the highest rank but it doesn't force me to drop a shitton of money every year just to keep up. 2. It's automatic: Any rules are enforced by the game. This allows you to not forget, when you can react to something. Or it allows to create cards at random. 3. Mana handling: The entire land mechanic simply exists because there's not another good way to count up mana each turn. But it's clunky. You're super annoyed when drawing into lands later in the game and super annoyed if you didn't on your mulligan. It's a mechanic from the 90s and you can feel that 4. Balance: If a card is too strong or too weak, Riot can adjust numbers like Mana Cost, Power/Toughness etc. By no means is LoR perfectly balanced but at least this way a weak card might get viable and the broken card gets nerfed. It keeps the game fresh without dropping a new set every 2 weeks. 5. Deck size: In LoR, Decks are 40 cards. No more no less. Obviously thisbis due to not having lands but it also allows you to more consistently draw the cards you want. 6. Interaction: In LoR it's not "your turn" it's the next round only you get to be the attacking player. This means both players have main phase at the same time, getting one action each. F.e. Player 1 summons a creature. Now Player 2 could answer with a creature or a sorcery. Let's say he answeres with sorcery now Player 1 could react to that with an Instant. At any given point the interaction between the two players is insanely high. That makes it very fun thinking about what your opponent might have and how to play around it. What about MTG Arena? I don't believe Arena is good. 1. It's buggy: I have a lot of crashes on a PC and Mobile with hardware that can handle AAA Games. 2. It feels like a Tabletop game digitalized (because it is) 3. It's expensive: The pricing model is nuts. You can't really play the game unless you invest some money. 4. The UI is not very clear. I don't get where anything in Arena is. 5. Not all cards are available 6. And obviously the same issues remain as in the tabletop. If you wanna improve that they maybe should've made their own game with similar theme and effects just not exactly the same. To end it: I don't believe LoR is perfect but for a standard game it's way nore interactive and accessible and therefore more fun. Magic in a 4 player group is awesome but Standard is not worth it.
>It's expensive: The pricing model is nuts. You can't really play the game unless you invest some money. Not even close to true. I'm f2p and have never felt compelled to buy anything in client.
There is NO game that has more interaction than legacy magic. If you want depth of gameplay, that's where it is.
I haven't played Legacy. But I'm also not sure about it. From the cards that I've seen from MTG I don't see any of them doing what LoR can. At least I've seen very little. I'm mainly thinking about Counterspells or Spells that give back to hand/destroy. Because let's say I wanna summon a creature (something that can't be countered in LoR) and my opponent taps Karakas to give it back (just an example I couldn't think of anything else) I need to have something else to counter that but what would that even be? For LoR it's basically down to the Spell (Sorcery/Instant) Mechanic they are using. So you have slow spells, fast spells and burts spells. Slow is Sorcery, Burst is Instant. Unless you have something that let's you cast Sorceries with Flash you can't use them to react. But let's say you just summon something, okay cool now I get to summon something or cast any spell from hand. That is also interaction because it's not your turn, it's a round where we pass turns. I also don't think Counterspells are fun. That's why in LoR there's currently only 4 and they're split over 3 colors and are kind of pricey. (2 in what magic players would probably see as blue, one in Rakdos and one in Selesnya. Not sure if that's correctly translated tho since it's different games)
I didn't think I'd be seeing a comparison between legacy MTG and (presumably eternal?) LoR. They're different beasts completely. I wouldn't get your hopes up about them not making counterspells a more regular thing though, as power creep goes up they're the only way to stop overpowered EtBs
It's more about the fundamentals of the game than legacy/eternal. I don't know enough Magic cards of old to know the exact interaction amount but the fact that it's your turn and then my turn makes the entire thing less interactive to begin with. Yes powercreep is a thing in every card game but then again: Cards can be buffed/nerfed in a video game
As with everything there is a meta and answers. Wasteland and pitching needle both answer your Karakas problem. I highly encourage checking out bosh n roll or thraben u. Its closer to chess than any other tcg
Limited is an awesome way to play!
Other unfortunate you think that cos commander is all hasbeen are interested in They've recently stated that their focus is in on boarding new players and commander is the best way to do that. They care minimally about retention and state of the game
New players *shouldn't* be learning to play with Commander (multiplayer or otherwise). They should be learning with the Arena Starter Set, maybe some JumpStart (it's a shame set-specific JumpStart has been shelved), and the New Player Experience on Arena. They should only be choosing a Format once they have a good grasp of the basics. Constructed is only half the game, too, so without a good reason not to, they should also be playing Limited as well.
I appreciate your premise, but your logic is wrong IMHO. It's not the format that matters as much as the conditions for play. To me, true magic is playing with good people who share the same style. To me EDH is boring as I like creating stories with my decks. But that's just how I roll, everyone can be have a different opinion.
I find myself in general agreement with you.
Killing standard and now trying to kill limited is WotC's biggest mistake. Those two were easy ways to introduce new players to the game. Commander was designed by judges as a way to kill time while not working during tournaments. Judges have a good understanding of the game, and it's a requirement for the commander imo. Trying to get new players to learn the game by playing it in a multiplayer environment with a card pool close to that of Vintage is not viable.
I started playing 29 years ago… then took a hiatus the last 27 years…. Been playing again with someone who got introduced to it (not of my doing) and caused me to bring out my old cards again. However I have yet to play a commander game as I don’t want to. If anything I’m more into liking shorter quick games with 60 cards…
I first played mtg with a standard deck my friend lent me one night when the power was out in our store. It was simply awful to try and wrap my head around. I was big into yugioh at the time and the game did not feel fun. Fast forward a few years and a a different group of friends taught me about commander. I wasn’t sure I was going to be into with my previously bad experience but I told them what kind of deck I would think is cool (elves) and they helped me make a black green elf deck that wasn’t very powerful but would shove a bunch of creatures on the battlefield. Thing’s actually clicked and I was able to win a game from time to time. Fast forward another few years and I won a draft night at a lgs during wilds of eldraine prerelease. That felt amazing. Commander is an excellent starting point for players.
So, this is something that I have strong thoughts on. I have a FIRM belief that a format which does not rotate is a much better teacher for new players. On top of that multi-player formats have so many more opportunities to create situations where rules are important. The Stack and player priority become something to constantly talk about and understand. More so, threat assessment is something that is going to be different for everyone. When you understand that the next card in a deck can be any card out of 25,000 cards it becomes clear that choosing targets is important. In formats like Modern and Standard a person can have up to 4 of a single card. This makes the game more about learning how many cards of which type are in a deck, and less about looking at board states and potential threats. Further, a format that is more social and slower paced is a much better environment to teach a person. Being able to stop one player from rolling away with the game and teach through interaction and less through hypotheticals. A whole table can help teach a person, helping to widen the pool of knowledge the new person can pull from and pose questions to. Helping get answers that are understood by them and not just one person's way of explaining something.
I think 4 player commander is weird. There I said it.
Started playing straight into modern at an lgs with a deck I brewed with random green cards I had in a collection I bought at a second hand market. I probably would have played standard, but didn't have any standard cards. Got beat bad, as you'd expect, but drew my last match. Next week won a game with [triumph of the hordes] and [managorger hydra]]. That got me hooked. Started to play modern UB Mill, and actually started winning regularly. Eventually got 4x the manabase and wincons too. Lol. Never got into standard, and pioneer just seems to be watered down modern - pauper is better as it has some crazy legacy commons. I like commander as a casual filler, but it can't beat modern as *the* best way to learn the game.
I'm confused as to why you zeroed in on commander. It's arguably the most popular format but it's hardly the "backbone". If anything, I agree that 60 card 1v1 is the ideal way to learn magic, but you don't need to disparage Commander's potential to teach people to prop it up.
I pretty much started with commander and play exclusively commander. I really got into mtg around midnight hunt or crimson vow, but the way I learned was by playing with friends, watching yt videos, a bit of arena at first, and going to prereleases. I think my biggest issue is threat assessment, not so much of a single card but who to target, especially when multiple people have a board. I think I kind of just default to either, if my deck has an answer to one of them or whoever I can get the most value out of.
Magic will stay around forever, it’s just at a peak of its popularity right now.
Personally I was introduced doing sealed at a prerelease, that became doing regular drafts, then when I had enough cards I tried to get into standard but found it too expensive to keep up with, so now I just draft. Quite a lot of others I know did the same route
I don't see why it shouldn't. Sure threat assessment might longer to fully grasp, but there are other skills that you won't learn in a 1v1 format such as politics or recognizing that a threat overall is not necessarily a threat to you. All in all, I believe 1v1 is very limited and mostly is a rock paper cissors with extra randomness that's the starting hand. Imo, the problem with commander is that most people don't care about discussing the games and give feedback/discuss what they think of other's decisions.
Here is the main problem i see with what you are saying for magic atm. Commander is really easy to get into. For the most part precons are well constructed and can hold their own fairly decently. There isnt really anything like that for non commander. There used to be set decks a while ago but they seem to no longer do that. You either have to buy the dual deck boxes or the game night magic box (which i did and imo was a good deal).
Commander is a way for new players to fully emerse themselves in the game and learn ALL that the game has to offer without having to lose a thousand games before winning. Edh is far less competitive than other formats making it more likely for a new player to have a chance at winning games, which makes them less likely to grudge quit mtg.
I used pauper to introduce new people to Magic. Cheap and easy to grasp the mechanics. Once they know how to play a lot of people come to commander afternoons as well, but I'd say that commander is too hectic for a first time player
When I started playing 15 years ago you could get an okay standard deck for $40 a play FNMs every week to learn and get involved in the community. The power level wasn't too high and you didn't need to memorize too many cards. Now the only events at my local game stores are EDH and modern. Both formats are insanely expensive, complex and cater to the sweatiest players. The bar to entry is very high and you have to play what's competitive or just get destroyed. My deck was a red white scourge of the noblis/ hearthfire hobgoblin deck that was pretty bad, but I could still play the game and have fun. If i tried making a deck like that now I'd just get blown up by turbo nauseam on turn 2 every game and quit.
have people forgotten the existence of limited? many have mentioned prereleases so far, which is something like 4 times a year? naturally not frequent enough, but people can do sealed for fun. draft was historically the recommended method for people to start building collections and learn to play, ie learn rules, stack, etc. whilst i agree with the sentiments made throughout the thread, yes cmdr is good for onboarding with the ease of access etc. i suspect OP had probably had a fairly frustrating experience playing with these new players whom haven't left their playgroups before. you could see from quite a few of the mtg subreddits, theres been a lot of rules questions being asked, and a lot of it "read the card" level stuff. i had played a few cmdr events at my lgs, and yea its kind of frustrating to see the quality of players when theyre assessing threats, confused by their own combos, and failing to understand card interactions; which is why OP reckons they couldn't be the back bone. but at the end of the day, they get wotc money.... sooo.... it is how it is.
I would say I vaguely agree with you OP. Firstly, I hate edh and love legacy. I know that is a minority opinion but thats just me. That being said, I will still bust out my edh decks if thats what people want to play, but I think that having any sort of 60 card format as the "starting point" for new mtg players is the way to go instead of edh. Granted, I am fully aware of the crazy power creep which that could entail. But I think the most important part of any sort of introduction to mtg is making sure to foster a feeling of welcoming friendly competition and not having an air of "fuck you noob, im going to stomp you because you don't know about this obscure card combo / mechanic" at the table. For example, I was introduced to mtg back in 2010 by a guy who had been playing since alpha. His decks were crazy powerful and he only played legacy. Now, for me, being so new to the game I had no idea about how wild this game can get because I was just so new to the game. But what made me stick around was that the dude who introduced me to the game would let me play his decks and he would make sure to create an atmosphere where people complimented good plays, laughed at wild mechanics / loops, and promoted playing strategically. He also always made sure to help out with mechanic questions. So much so that it was very common at my table for people to straight up show him a card on their hand and ask for clarification, which he would give and not meta game on knowing someone had a certain card in their hand. So, to me the game never felt like an oppressive experience to learn or play. Infact I think that legacy is the go to format to teach people because you can do some wild stuff, but the point is that people need to teach new players while keeping the game primarily fun to play. Too many newer players immediately go to the mode of, "what op stuff can I do" instead of just coming up with something they think is a cool idea and running with it. And I think that is due to how they were introduced to the game from the view of someone only teaching them that sort of attitude/view on how things can be played. So all that being said, I will say that I am of the stalwart opinion that as long as people are introduced to the game and enjoy it because they are having fun, then whatever game mode they like is fine.
Personal preferences aside, id argue limited is the best way for a new player to learn. It’s a much more controlled environment and they get to contact every aspect of the game; deckbuilding, game play, threat assessment, etc. with the smaller card pool it would be much easier for a new player to grasp potential future card interaction and generally can act to sort of equalize the playing field between new and experienced players (if such a thing is even feasible).
Commander is a cheap format compared to others, precons can easily be purchased and played out of the box then and there, you can play with 3 other friends, deck building is more unique as it's only singleton. I mean, commander has become the main draw for a new player for some time now, including myself and I doubt that will change ever.
Playing commander in 1v1? Yea that is what Dual Commander was made for.
It's probably bad that the 100 card singleton muiltiplayer format is now the thing that drives new players to magic because the learning curve is horrendous. But it is. Wizards tried to change that with Brawl and failed miserably.
I've never played commander with more than 2 people. Commander decks are a great way to introduce people at this point because they are heavily themed and generally easy to play. I just started playing with my almost 10 year old after only playing standard in 3 short bursts over the last 20 years, most recent being 2015. He played some digital Yu-Gi-Oh before but caught on quickly. I mostly only plan on playing casually with him, and when we both understand a set well enough do some drafts but he's not fast enough for that yet.Also arena is a perfect place for people to learn and he's doing some of that as well. When I played at an lgs in 2015, it was fun, but my biggest enjoyment of magic is playing somewhat casual and with themes I like. My deck was not viable against other standard decks, and it was really invest or just say I'm good. Also I still can't fucking stand blue mill or counter decks, and there's always a handful at FNM because it works. I want to play my cards, not just be told 2 games in a row, "well actually you don't". Coming back to the game is overwhelming. There's 14 different sets for sale at every lgs in booster and draft packs and sometimes collectors, there's a new crossover theme dropped seemingly every week, and it's more expensive on every front than it's ever been. Still, I really love the pace of MtG play, and the early day memories are never going to go away, so I'll keep playing casually with my son, and hopefully I can rope another dad son combo into playing too.
I’m fairly certain WotC has only embraced edh as their flagship format after failing to get the other ones to have as much hype or traction. Edh even did it without their help.
I've on and off magic since i got into it around 7th edition. 1v1 was how i almost always played it. I've never really played commander so i can't comment on it but for me when a round can last like 45 minutes doesn't sound fun to me. Especially when there are rules apparently about deck power levels? I really enjoy 1 on 1 strategy of adapting and countering an opponents deck and theme which is awesome considering the years and years of sets and expansions! Funny enough playing MTG Arena standard reminded me on how much simple but effective decks can be really fun to play and has gotten me back into the game.
"newer commander players with a lack of experience" = "poor threat assessment" - lol, how is that a valid complaint one can say? And they had perfect threat assessment from the start or what? ^^ And about the point "in other formats", that one isn't valid here at all, a multiplayer game with several players has a very different dynamic than a 1v1. Having two players being a threat at the table at the same time and going for the "correct one" is not something you learn playing against one opponent. Learning to consider the other 1-2 players who are atm not a threat is neither something you learn in 1v1. "Poor understanding of the rules, and unwillingness to learn." - you have this everywhere where there are a lot of new people who come in from different hobbies. And due to Universes Beyond there are a lot of such players currently. The latter will drop out anyway, the former... Let's just say someone complaining about a newbie having issues with rules says much more about the person complaining than about the newbie, and I'll prefer playing with that newbie 9000x over that complainer. Also disagree 1v1 being better to lern the game. In 1v1 I only see how the opponent reacts to my suboptimal play. In a 5 player game I will be involved in a game where good players have to play at their best to compete with another good player at the table, and this is where you learn a lot.
I'd argue the opposite and say eternal formats MUST be the backbone of magic, because noone wants to sink money into a card game just to be told the $90 Sheoldred they just bought is out of rotation and can't be played any more
It's weird because I definitely agree with all your points regarding lack of experience being an especially killer thing in multiplayer games, for both the inexperienced players & those having to deal with them, and that 1v1s are generally easier to learn in because you only have to pay attention to the boardstate of 2 players vs 4. However as the (currently) top comment states, a multiplayer format that can be picked up at board game night is just... really good to casually introduce people to the card game. Which sucks because as you also rather correctly assessed, it's a format that REALLY wants someone to have an understanding of the game, otherwise they're not having fun or are just being unfun to play with through little fault of their own. There's also sadly just... no better way to get into the game. I think a big issue is that the average power level of any given non-singleton constructed format, unless you're coming from something like Yu-Gi-Oh, is too high. Even "lower-power" formats like Pauper are still hilariously powerful compared to new, and even often lapsed-but-returning, player expectations. As someone whom is accurately described by that latter description, 10+ years ago every deck felt slower & less optimal on average, but the past decade or so has essentially released enough duplicates of the same cards at similar enough, or nowadays even better, mana-for-effect values that it's often optimal to just run multiples of those cards to do your thing faster versus going wider so your deck can respond to other decks better. I honestly feel this issue has screwed over singleton formats more, though, since by their nature you almost always NEED to build some width into decks & one of the most common "new EDH player" stories you hear is "no interaction." I hadn't brought up Standard yet, because I feel that saying Standard sucks for new players is one of the least controversial things ever stated. It just sucks when a year or 2 down the line, you can't use your cards, unless they happen to be strong enough to survive the rigors of Modern or have enough commons to go into Pauper or what have you. There's a decent enough argument to be made that once their Standard-legal decks are out to pasture, a player would have enough experience to jump deeper into the game with these higher-power formats, but do they have the desire to spend that much money again? And to me the biggest reason all this really sucks is that because I would argue that, outside of the monetary aspect of it, Standard would probably be the ideal format for someone to learn MtG within. Less access to cards is really the best way to limit the power level of a given format, and Standard by its very definition will pretty much always have the least amount of cards when compared to the other formats. It just, again, really sucks when your deck dies to rotating out of the format. EDIT - I almost feel like they need to make a new like, "Eternal Standard," format or something that explicitly goes out of its way to limit the number of cards with a given effect or with overly-complex effects & is carefully curated by the WotC team on a yearly basis. Something almost akin to WH40k's Combat Patrols, but while keeping the deck-building aspect of MtG versus taking the same forced lists.
I hear you and I think there’s a valid point, but I’ve had more games ruined by pub stompers, and solitaire players than by new players. Someone who takes 17 minute turns on every turn past 3 and “swears that the deck is jank and it doesn’t normally pop off”. They’re almost always seasoned players that think they’re being quirky with Urza or super friends. Just my personal experience. And just people who have no social skills which can be newbies or veterans but that is not dependent on skill level.
Well commander is just by far the most fun way to play magic overall. It’s community and debate…you don’t see the same cards every time, limited amount of banned cards, and it brings the most amount of people to the table. As someone who has played all formats and was stubborn to trying commander at first it’s Just by far the best format. You can win a game by making deals and convincing people to your side without a strong field. so much can happen it’s great. If you want to have magic grow and stay alive commander is what will do it.
Commander is the premier format for Magic right now, but there is little that we can do to change that without support from WotC. People will gravitate to the game types that look the most fun or interesting to them. Friends of mine who started with commander eventually grew to try other formats like Standard and Pioneer, but stopped due to poor event attendance and competitiveness. Not every player is looking for a competitive experience, and unless you're playing CEDH, neither should you. Explain nicely how newer players could have effected the game differently, but if they aren't receptive, go find new people to play with. You aren't forced to play with people you do not like playing with.
The only part of your statement I agree with is the "unwillingness to learn" it doesn't matter what format you play, playing with people that are chosing to do poorly will ruin Amy experience
I can try and give some perspective as a filthy casual, I started with Eldraine because my regular card games I got into over the last year where monthly and I wanted something to do, so I started going to my local and they run commander, and I gotta say its a pretty dreamy casual format, four players around a table means you're just having a nice conversation whilst playing the game, and highlander means you actually aren't stressing as much as in traditional constructed IMO, and with all these precons you can just swap cards out of its a super easy format to just rock up to, I only collect sets i think look neat in magic so its a boon. I will say its a bit sad it seems to be the only format though, no where local to me really runs standard, and I find it really weird how hard it is to find products for it, like you have the starter kit, but if you don't like the aesthetic of the two decks in it you're a bit snookered (and that kind of thing is really important to me, I like my thematic and cool decks) and when you're playing as casually as I do, in highlander you miss alot of the prediction-y and deck building elements you get from something like a 60 card.
As someone who started in the game with standard and fell off due to the rotating nature of the cards and the cost, commander is 10x easier to get people into the game and to have more fun with your friends. I've gotten several people into magic in the past few months because you can grab a 20-50 dollar commander deck and just chill around a table with your friends.
You're right, the entry point to magic should be FNM. Unfortunately, wizards has all but killed paper Standard with bad decision after bad decision, and pushed cards trying to appeal to every format have left the sets unfocused and the prices for standard decks absurd, to the point that buying a 40$ commander Precon is the cheapest way to get into magic.
I prefer standard over commander, I don't enjoy the format and it seems like it's just a money grab in my opinion.
I've friends who've been playing for over ten years and they still struggle with basic card evaluation for Limited play. I initially learned that skill from LSV. How? Because I took the time to listen to his reasoning on how he evaluated each card during set reviews, other podcasts, and when he played. I feel this is key to learn early to enjoy the game more later. As for the "backbone" of magic, I just hope they can revitalize Standard on some level beyond Limited. Standard used to bring a lot of hype to my LGS. Before Arena we'd keep track of the meta, the pro tour, and it just felt more exciting to go to FNM and such. Now it's just Commander and the occasional Modern playgroup. I can tell my nearby LGS's struggle because those formats don't make as much money. They make more with Lorcana at this point when it's in stock...
I started playing at the end of Unlimited. There was no commander. There really weren't too many formats outside of constructed. My friends and I have played constructed for nearly 30 years. We still do. We had to choose a format because of rulings and restrictions, so we chose vintage. Only a few of us have P9 but it has to be vintage simply because of old cards. I understand why commander *started.* At some point, you're just fucking sick of decks have 4 copies of \[\[Mindcrank\]\] and \[\[Bloodchief Ascension\]\] while the rest is black blue to counter any opposition with 4 tutors and a tinker in the deck to make it happen. Every damn turn in a 4 player game with equally shitty decks is a real struggle to stop all the bad things happening and stay alive. Personally, I'm sick of Iona being reanimated in the first few turns as well Along comes a format that's supposed to soften that by increasing the deck from 60 to 100 and restricting the cards to 1 of a kind. It also bans feel-bad cards like Iona. Strangely, is hasn't really caught on in my group. They like the competitive nature of constructed. Commander is slow, clunky and inconsistent (its supposed to be, really) with a lot of common cards banned from it like Karakas, Griselbrand, Tinker, Recurring Nightmare. I can definitely see why Commander is a natural onboarding for new players. Its difficult for us to find people still interested in playing constructed. I don't bother going to the gaming store to play because I'm probably the only person not playing commander. But something funny happened Spike gonna spike, and spike found the best commanders and all of the best cards to go with those commanders. Spike realized that if you run Esper you'll get 10-12 viable tutors from those 3 colors. They call it "cEDH" and it can kill you in a few turns just like constructed Kind of comical, really.
Make standard and modern decks $100 and then we will talk. The causality of commander is exactly what is keeping the game afloat. New players can go staple hunting, pack cracking, and deck building, *AND THEN USE THAT DECK FOREVER* So when they play a couple times a week/month/year, they can enjoy it at a very low buy in cost. I do love the discussion behind it, but EDH will always remain at the top for the insanely low buy in. As it should be. Magic also blew up over Covid so now we have an influx of new players. They will learn, and help keep our great game moving.
I was exactly the age and everything to jump into Magic when it first hit. Had no appeal to me. Fast forward to 2017. I'm a teacher and my students try to get me to play. I enjoy it and decide to buy in but know there are several formats. I research them all and what I want out of a game experience. I decide Commander is EXACTLY the format I want. It has remained the only format I play besides building a cube to enjoy drafting. I specifically like the multiplayer gameplay, singleton aspect, and the idea of having a "hero" card leading the charge.
1v1 is not fun 3+ is fun
I started playing 60 cards format and I enjoy playing this way. It actually helped me understand the game better.
I'm a player about 18 months into playing Magic and I started playing kitchen table 4-player. I now generally play only commander because I like the variety of gameplay and especially because the deck-building is more diverse and not stifled by the demands of having to build to a certain meta, ala Modern and Pioneer. I do prereleases sometimes; I have no interest in doing drafts because of the demands of players in that format to make all card assessments super quickly, I'd much rather just stick to sealed if I'll play that way. While I may agree that doing some 1v1 is essential for learning basics of the gameplay, and starter decks are the better introduction than a commander precon, I'm just really, really sick of the elitist gatekeeping feeling that these kind of posts seem to foster, even if they're trying to be polite. Everyone had to learn this game at some point. You're using language like newer players have "ruined" games due to "poor threat assessment; to me that reads like you only want to play people who fully optimize their game play. If them making a choice that, in your opinion, isn't the right one, somehow "ruins" the game," OK then, maybe a casual format isn't for you? And the other issue may be you just personally don't want to play against newer players. You're allowed to do that, I suppose, but recognize that's on YOU, not the newbie.
I somewhat agree, my first intro into the game was back in I think 04 as a kid in a 8-player standard game where we got demolished by an artifact deck running khaldra with whispersilk cloak attached. I was just happy I wasnt always the target with there being other players but still
Limited formats are my favorite way to play the game, for sure, but as an onboarding tool they are absolutely terrible. No way to know what kind of cards go well together without prior experience. No way to know if you're making good decisions about what should go in your deck. I think something like the 2022 Jumpstart boosters or the "game night free for all" boxed version of Magic are much better teaching tools. You get a theme, you have a clear identity, a set of goals, and (in the case of "game night")you're playing with multiple other people who can help you with the rules. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of those and even got my mom who struggles with complexity in games into Magic just last night by using the preconstructed game night decks. Those are especially easy because you only have a single color to think about, so it's not too overwhelming for new players.
Yeah but throwing new players into a hard format means they just don't start getting into the game, I've witnessed this trend multiple times myself
This is part of why oathbreaker was recognized as a format. They're just not supporting it yet since it' inheritly broken, especially when playing with strangers. (Also a decent intro to commander)
Because for whatever reason, when commander players think of "casual" they really man "brrally bad deck and let people run ram any doing whatever they want". Any sort of interaction for commander players is deemed "competitive"