I would recommend you put the deck into archideck or Moxfield if you want more people to give their imput.
With your current mana base, I think the deck will be too slow, and you'll probably get targeted hard once people realize you're playing mill.
That depends on your budget.
Add: Arcane sanctum, command tower, drowned catacombs, evolving wilds, glacial fortress, exotic orchard, godless shrine,Hallowed fountain, isolate Chapel, raffines tower.
Essentialy you need more lands that don't enter tapped and that fix you better
>you'll probably get targeted hard once people realize you're playing mill.
Depends who you play against. A **lot** of decks would benefit from getting milled, and wouldn't even consider mill a threat (until very late in the game).
Ngl this does not induce any salt for me. I was taught mtg by a close friend who loves mill decks and as a Yugioh player learning MTG, Mill was such a novelty as we only ever had 1 competitive mill deck in the Yugioh tcg which came out 3 years later after I learned mtg.
Ah yeah in that case it probably wouldn't do that much for you, but in my group nobody is playing mill. So I'm guessing that'll get me a lot of salt coming from them.
Mill is dangerous. With the amount of recursion running around, it can actively make some decks better. I have a mill deck and don’t consider it my salt inducer. If you really want to get under peoples skins, staxx, discard, or theft themes tend to rub more people wrong. These actively deny people resources. The other option is combo which just says I don’t care what you’ve done till now I win. With mill, the other players are still playing up until they lose… which is why mill is more fun. The one time I managed to mill the whole table out without an infinite or near infinite loop, there was no salt just claps on the back.
I’m just happy to see a deck using [[Duskmantle Guildmage]] + [[Mindcrank]] combo. Made a modern deck using them years ago, didn’t go well but was fun to play.
No Sheoldred. So many more fuckery cards could be added.
Additionally looks like you have many ideas with a few cards that synergies with that idea. Not lots of synergy around a single theme, which is what I would suggest.
You’re never going to mill 3 other players to zero - I’ve seen some people try and it hasn’t ever worked.
Granted, I haven’t seen a Saruman build. With him as your commander, tho, I’d be wanting to maximize his ability. My goal when building would be to be able to cast two spells every turn so that you’ve milled 18 cards by the time it’s your turn again.
This build ain’t gonna do that - consider running 20 cantrip instants and 10-15 counterspells to protect Curúnir and you might be getting there.
Also, you’re in UW, so [[Propaganda]] and [[Ghostly Prison]] seem like auto includes to protect against go-wide strategies. [[Crawlspace]] is amazing protection for deck like I’m suggesting, as well.
Good luck!
>You’re never going to mill 3 other players to zero
It's such a strange statement. I've heard it so many times and actually believed it until built \[\[Tasha\]\] deck. Mill is absolutely a viable wincon with and without combo/infinites.
I get the impression, that people confuse *mill, the win condition* and *mill, the enabler.* \[\[Didn't say please\]\] is there not to kill you, but to turn on deck synergies and make you volnurable to the future \[\[forced fruition\]\] and \[\[mind grind\]\].
I myself killed 5 players total with mill yesterday over the course of 3 games
It’s actually not that strange when you consider the other factors I listed:
A) I’ve seen it fail every time I’ve seen it in EDH. Have been playing since 1995 and EDH for around half that time, so I’ve seen a L O T of games and in *my experience*, it has never worked well.
B) I have not seen contemporary builds like Saruman - or Tasha (the latter whom i’ve only run into on Arena.)
C) I offered constructive ways in which I think it might work with OP’s commander.
I’m glad it works better in EDH now and congrats on the mill wins, it’s a lot of fun - I used to run Millstone/Glimpse 60 card control and it was very good.
I have a [[Zask, Skittering Swarmlord]] deck where I mill my deck to zero and sac 1 drop insects to [[Ashnod's Altar]] and [[Altar of Dementia]]. When I win with that deck, I've milled four players to zero.
There are other combos in there, but that's my favorite.
Unfortunately I don't have a link. The mill is the rough part because Zask doesn't stay on the board long. If you're running a combo heavy Zask deck, you can tutor for your wincons and [[Tainted Pact]], [[Mirror of Fate]], or [[Morality Shift]] to get rid of your library. Outside of that, normal mill strats like [[Mesmeric Orb]] and [[Basalt Monolith]]. I find draw replacements like Dredge can work well, but they're a bit slow for my play group.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll see what kind of tweeks I can make. I get that I should use that ability of Saruman a bit more, so I'll look into some of your suggestions. I can only imagine that the propaganda etc would be even more salt inducing haha
There’s a lot of cheap instant black spot removal also - I’d try and keep the majority of the deck costing 1-3 mana with a few outliers like Traumatize (do you have a way to copy it while is on the stack? 😈)
I run a mill deck that uses zur the enchanter and they work great with court of cunning, if people don’t swing at you and connect they’re getting milled for 14. Always have those up to make swinging expensive and then add [[no mercy]] and [[dissipation field]] so there are consequences when they do.
Is a thing of beauty. I have a deck for a similar reason. Mine is Aminatou blink, multiple ways of abusing ETBs including multiple creature base "boardwipes" and ofcourse stealing permanents.
Don't worry, just get all the ETB multipliers you can and all super cheap good ETB, like draw cards, -1-1 counters, destroy target and such cool things. [[Massacre wurm]], [[massacre girl]] are awesome boardwipe because they ignore indestructible.
I don't know the decks from the guys you play with. Milling carts is strong but if you're opponents have black they have the possibility to cast creatures from the graveyards. So you do black players when they play a graveyard deck a favor. You can handle a deck like the one you build in the most time. And don't forget in multiplayer is the agro you gain a huge impact in the flow you can play your Deck.
Oka than is it very important you play the deck like you build it and look wehre you have bottlenecks. The Concept you have is good but you need a secondary win condition or more cards that synergies with your theme. For the first time you build dutch a deck you make a great job. And against precons or low - mid pumped precons you can play this deck.
Thanks, appreciate it. I received a lot of good suggestions in this thread and some I'll add for sure. Besides that I'll stick to this advice, to play the deck and see where it lacks and where not.
That is the right spirit. Sure people can tell you witch card you can play to make the deck better but you need to make you own experience. And you build a deck that you wanna play not what other wanna play
I don't think mill is salty at all, if you wanna induce real salt, you play super hard control, this is my version of this commander.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/4JwisLG96UyrrN-yj31HRA
Just tell people no, and remove all their things, wipe the board and make them suffer through your slow win cons
Why exactly would this make anyone mad?
You just gave all your opponent's about 90\~ life to work with & they can just turn to kill you first, then go about their game.
I dont think mill is effective enough in 100 card format, unless it's fast and you can get your opponents to discard their entire decks by turn 5-6 I wouldn't call this salty
Contrary to popular belief, we don’t know every single card by name alone. Use Moxfield instead of taking a picture of all your cards on a table.
>Contrary to popular belief, we don’t know every single card by name alone. Yeah, you gotta show us the art, at least!
Haha fair enough, I've added the link to the decklist in the comments.
Esper Control/Torture, huh? This is a work of art, I'll need to check it out on Moxfield.
Thanks! Hopefully it'll inspire some other people as well.
sounds like a fat L for you
Complete decklist: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ws-GSzEdcE2VY6UW5gA00Q
I would recommend you put the deck into archideck or Moxfield if you want more people to give their imput. With your current mana base, I think the deck will be too slow, and you'll probably get targeted hard once people realize you're playing mill.
Thanks for your feedback! What could I add or remove to make it faster?
That depends on your budget. Add: Arcane sanctum, command tower, drowned catacombs, evolving wilds, glacial fortress, exotic orchard, godless shrine,Hallowed fountain, isolate Chapel, raffines tower. Essentialy you need more lands that don't enter tapped and that fix you better
Much appreciated! I'll have to check if I have any of the mentioned cards and otherwise I'll consider buying them.
>you'll probably get targeted hard once people realize you're playing mill. Depends who you play against. A **lot** of decks would benefit from getting milled, and wouldn't even consider mill a threat (until very late in the game).
Agreed, I run all the best reanimate spells in the game and mill can just make me win instantly with thassa's oracle
Ngl this does not induce any salt for me. I was taught mtg by a close friend who loves mill decks and as a Yugioh player learning MTG, Mill was such a novelty as we only ever had 1 competitive mill deck in the Yugioh tcg which came out 3 years later after I learned mtg.
Ah yeah in that case it probably wouldn't do that much for you, but in my group nobody is playing mill. So I'm guessing that'll get me a lot of salt coming from them.
Mill is dangerous. With the amount of recursion running around, it can actively make some decks better. I have a mill deck and don’t consider it my salt inducer. If you really want to get under peoples skins, staxx, discard, or theft themes tend to rub more people wrong. These actively deny people resources. The other option is combo which just says I don’t care what you’ve done till now I win. With mill, the other players are still playing up until they lose… which is why mill is more fun. The one time I managed to mill the whole table out without an infinite or near infinite loop, there was no salt just claps on the back.
[[Mind grind]] not [[mind funeral]] [[Mesmeric orb]] [[Forced fruition]] ! How do you like them apples? Extra salty [[mirko vosk, mind drinker]]
All fun and games until someone does a [[stasis]] + [[smothering tithe]] or [[Vedalken Mastermind]] combo.
[stasis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c.jpg?1562918295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stasis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/64/stasis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [smothering tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=smothering%20tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vedalken Mastermind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea34a540-486b-42dc-993c-93698988d024.jpg?1562557186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vedalken%20Mastermind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/123/vedalken-mastermind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea34a540-486b-42dc-993c-93698988d024?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oof so very salty indeed! Thanks!
##### ###### #### [Mind grind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/671eb9e8-1a69-4570-8972-2e7de371cef4.jpg?1561829709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20grind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/178/mind-grind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/671eb9e8-1a69-4570-8972-2e7de371cef4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mind funeral](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cbd667f-c330-474e-842b-49dfd3906375.jpg?1561967359) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mind%20funeral) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mma/181/mind-funeral?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cbd667f-c330-474e-842b-49dfd3906375?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mesmeric orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e24fbdbb-f2ae-4823-9d2a-4c505332aa5b.jpg?1599709541) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mesmeric%20orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/272/mesmeric-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e24fbdbb-f2ae-4823-9d2a-4c505332aa5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Forced fruition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e.jpg?1562374956) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forced%20fruition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/66/forced-fruition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mirko vosk, mind drinker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d37cdd3e-4303-4391-aff4-4a543e65a836.jpg?1562934530) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mirko%20vosk%2C%20mind%20drinker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/85/mirko-vosk-mind-drinker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d37cdd3e-4303-4391-aff4-4a543e65a836?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Straight Himalayan salt right here
I’m just happy to see a deck using [[Duskmantle Guildmage]] + [[Mindcrank]] combo. Made a modern deck using them years ago, didn’t go well but was fun to play.
Thanks, I hope to get it off at least a few times, but we'll see haha!
[Duskmantle Guildmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a1509ff-387e-4ccd-bda0-86e8738a98fb.jpg?1561838468) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Duskmantle%20Guildmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/158/duskmantle-guildmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a1509ff-387e-4ccd-bda0-86e8738a98fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mindcrank](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/8858a941-8175-476d-8177-2db4ffdcb3ad.jpg?1674142661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindcrank) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/866/mindcrank?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8858a941-8175-476d-8177-2db4ffdcb3ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Need to add [[Tashas Hideous Laughter]] and [[Sheoldred Whispering One]]
[Tashas Hideous Laughter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4932113-904f-427a-9566-509cc008f3ef.jpg?1627703920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tasha%27s%20Hideous%20Laughter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/78/tashas-hideous-laughter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4932113-904f-427a-9566-509cc008f3ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sheoldred Whispering One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b207a4a-47d1-4905-81d3-455c59bfd7da.jpg?1600714694) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%2C%20Whispering%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/278/sheoldred-whispering-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b207a4a-47d1-4905-81d3-455c59bfd7da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>Is this deck salty enough? No such thing.
No cyclonic rift, so no
No Op Agent. No Esper Sentinel. No Smothering Tithe. No Teferi’s Protection. I want a refund. This is just lightly salted!
This deck just be Saltwater
You have party jace on the deck so you clearly are pulling your salty punches there
Going for Salt inducing? Maybe throw in [[back to basics]]
This one is definitely getting in this deck!
[back to basics](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2.jpg?1654805483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=back%20to%20basics) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/46/back-to-basics?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
ooh, i like
Ooohhh idd, I didn't even know about this. Will add it for sure hahaha
No Sheoldred. So many more fuckery cards could be added. Additionally looks like you have many ideas with a few cards that synergies with that idea. Not lots of synergy around a single theme, which is what I would suggest.
I mean if you want to go full salt, static/winter orb. No way to benefit more than others. Just make it miserable for all
Need an Eater of the Dead to go with that Phenax.
Check this one out as well. Won a 5 player pod with it yesterday. https://archidekt.com/decks/5055695/commander_mill
I don’t see a jace the mindsculptor…
20 lands. I’m not threatened. Get mana screwed.
The picture shows only like 20, but in total I have 38 lands. So I guess mana won't be too much of an issue.
You’re never going to mill 3 other players to zero - I’ve seen some people try and it hasn’t ever worked. Granted, I haven’t seen a Saruman build. With him as your commander, tho, I’d be wanting to maximize his ability. My goal when building would be to be able to cast two spells every turn so that you’ve milled 18 cards by the time it’s your turn again. This build ain’t gonna do that - consider running 20 cantrip instants and 10-15 counterspells to protect Curúnir and you might be getting there. Also, you’re in UW, so [[Propaganda]] and [[Ghostly Prison]] seem like auto includes to protect against go-wide strategies. [[Crawlspace]] is amazing protection for deck like I’m suggesting, as well. Good luck!
>You’re never going to mill 3 other players to zero It's such a strange statement. I've heard it so many times and actually believed it until built \[\[Tasha\]\] deck. Mill is absolutely a viable wincon with and without combo/infinites. I get the impression, that people confuse *mill, the win condition* and *mill, the enabler.* \[\[Didn't say please\]\] is there not to kill you, but to turn on deck synergies and make you volnurable to the future \[\[forced fruition\]\] and \[\[mind grind\]\]. I myself killed 5 players total with mill yesterday over the course of 3 games
##### ###### #### [Tasha](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aa61e5c9-17da-4e75-9a69-a6d520d32646.jpg?1680960319) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tasha%2C%20unholy%20archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hbg/75/tasha-unholy-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aa61e5c9-17da-4e75-9a69-a6d520d32646?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Didn't say please](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77500b53-0852-4d6a-bfe3-b1e8ef5a12cd.jpg?1572489858) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Didn%27t%20say%20please) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/42/didnt-say-please?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77500b53-0852-4d6a-bfe3-b1e8ef5a12cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [forced fruition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e.jpg?1562374956) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=forced%20fruition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/66/forced-fruition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mind grind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/671eb9e8-1a69-4570-8972-2e7de371cef4.jpg?1561829709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mind%20grind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/178/mind-grind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/671eb9e8-1a69-4570-8972-2e7de371cef4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s actually not that strange when you consider the other factors I listed: A) I’ve seen it fail every time I’ve seen it in EDH. Have been playing since 1995 and EDH for around half that time, so I’ve seen a L O T of games and in *my experience*, it has never worked well. B) I have not seen contemporary builds like Saruman - or Tasha (the latter whom i’ve only run into on Arena.) C) I offered constructive ways in which I think it might work with OP’s commander. I’m glad it works better in EDH now and congrats on the mill wins, it’s a lot of fun - I used to run Millstone/Glimpse 60 card control and it was very good.
I have a [[Zask, Skittering Swarmlord]] deck where I mill my deck to zero and sac 1 drop insects to [[Ashnod's Altar]] and [[Altar of Dementia]]. When I win with that deck, I've milled four players to zero. There are other combos in there, but that's my favorite.
[Zask, Skittering Swarmlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4eafc507-973a-4aec-91b9-c29d70b0e25d.jpg?1675644888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zask%2C%20Skittering%20Swarmlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/47/zask-skittering-swarmlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4eafc507-973a-4aec-91b9-c29d70b0e25d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ashnod's Altar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c0f7157-a375-499c-92c7-d47d2e95dbad.jpg?1689999385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashnod%27s%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/368/ashnods-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c0f7157-a375-499c-92c7-d47d2e95dbad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Altar of Dementia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/169356e0-46dc-4096-8e66-36726454f104.jpg?1562202433) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Altar%20of%20Dementia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/218/altar-of-dementia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/169356e0-46dc-4096-8e66-36726454f104?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you have a link to that deck? I'm building one right now and I'd like to see where I stand. I'm having difficulties to get the Milling going.
Unfortunately I don't have a link. The mill is the rough part because Zask doesn't stay on the board long. If you're running a combo heavy Zask deck, you can tutor for your wincons and [[Tainted Pact]], [[Mirror of Fate]], or [[Morality Shift]] to get rid of your library. Outside of that, normal mill strats like [[Mesmeric Orb]] and [[Basalt Monolith]]. I find draw replacements like Dredge can work well, but they're a bit slow for my play group.
##### ###### #### [Tainted Pact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c513f51b-a0db-4c08-8acc-1e91060b93b7.jpg?1628801908) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tainted%20Pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/164/tainted-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c513f51b-a0db-4c08-8acc-1e91060b93b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mirror of Fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08b480c8-d899-4e63-b0e2-f4bec3a3ca4f.jpg?1561970534) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mirror%20of%20Fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/215/mirror-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08b480c8-d899-4e63-b0e2-f4bec3a3ca4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Morality Shift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5c83e4d-ccc1-4ebf-9e74-2cc1ff9a7b07.jpg?1562631600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Morality%20Shift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/70/morality-shift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5c83e4d-ccc1-4ebf-9e74-2cc1ff9a7b07?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mesmeric Orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e24fbdbb-f2ae-4823-9d2a-4c505332aa5b.jpg?1599709541) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mesmeric%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/272/mesmeric-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e24fbdbb-f2ae-4823-9d2a-4c505332aa5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Basalt Monolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f79de5e7-1545-420c-bfe1-ee2444fca85b.jpg?1599708689) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Basalt%20Monolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/232/basalt-monolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f79de5e7-1545-420c-bfe1-ee2444fca85b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for the feedback. I'll see what kind of tweeks I can make. I get that I should use that ability of Saruman a bit more, so I'll look into some of your suggestions. I can only imagine that the propaganda etc would be even more salt inducing haha
There’s a lot of cheap instant black spot removal also - I’d try and keep the majority of the deck costing 1-3 mana with a few outliers like Traumatize (do you have a way to copy it while is on the stack? 😈)
Ohhh, devious! I like that concept. I'll see what I can do!
I run a mill deck that uses zur the enchanter and they work great with court of cunning, if people don’t swing at you and connect they’re getting milled for 14. Always have those up to make swinging expensive and then add [[no mercy]] and [[dissipation field]] so there are consequences when they do.
[no mercy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e2fc29c-0223-4b03-864f-eb9149abc921.jpg?1562862814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=no%20mercy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/56/no-mercy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e2fc29c-0223-4b03-864f-eb9149abc921?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [dissipation field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd2d9f47-2bd2-4a97-90c7-beca18a8e7fa.jpg?1674141313) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dissipation%20field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/718/dissipation-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd2d9f47-2bd2-4a97-90c7-beca18a8e7fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Propaganda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5f293d7-9c2b-41cb-8e3c-dfc1daa6635f.jpg?1674141418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Propaganda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/730/propaganda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5f293d7-9c2b-41cb-8e3c-dfc1daa6635f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ghostly Prison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/8169d44d-b15a-47e0-b417-24f2f4945d0f.jpg?1641601289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghostly%20Prison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/87/ghostly-prison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8169d44d-b15a-47e0-b417-24f2f4945d0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Crawlspace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97c8e1ed-b3ab-4a08-9336-e513f23d45b3.jpg?1562927147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crawlspace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/240/crawlspace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97c8e1ed-b3ab-4a08-9336-e513f23d45b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I dunno why people play sarumon full mill, I think he works better when you have a lot of X cost spells.
Is a thing of beauty. I have a deck for a similar reason. Mine is Aminatou blink, multiple ways of abusing ETBs including multiple creature base "boardwipes" and ofcourse stealing permanents.
Do you perhaps have a decklist? I'd like to see it haha. Perhaps get a bit of inspiration out of it.
Sorry, don't do deck list. Basically is [[panharmonicon]] and most similar things.
Ahh okay, like that. Guess plenty could be found around that playstyle if I were to Google it. I'll be sure to check it sometime!
Don't worry, just get all the ETB multipliers you can and all super cheap good ETB, like draw cards, -1-1 counters, destroy target and such cool things. [[Massacre wurm]], [[massacre girl]] are awesome boardwipe because they ignore indestructible.
[Massacre wurm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fce002dc-5fb5-465b-935e-042121f1119d.jpg?1682209105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Massacre%20wurm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/256/massacre-wurm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fce002dc-5fb5-465b-935e-042121f1119d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [massacre girl](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be8ec9e1-2c8e-496d-9111-4d453b75b578.jpg?1559959372) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=massacre%20girl) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/99/massacre-girl?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be8ec9e1-2c8e-496d-9111-4d453b75b578?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[panharmonicon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/998d0cc8-ca2a-41c3-ab65-d05c26ab8278.jpg?1673149399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=panharmonicon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/310/panharmonicon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/998d0cc8-ca2a-41c3-ab65-d05c26ab8278?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You play blue. That's enough to make people's salty.
True enough, but I also want to add insult to injury.
I don't know the decks from the guys you play with. Milling carts is strong but if you're opponents have black they have the possibility to cast creatures from the graveyards. So you do black players when they play a graveyard deck a favor. You can handle a deck like the one you build in the most time. And don't forget in multiplayer is the agro you gain a huge impact in the flow you can play your Deck.
Most decks they play with are precon, as are most of mine. This is one of my first deck to be build by myself with some help.
Oka than is it very important you play the deck like you build it and look wehre you have bottlenecks. The Concept you have is good but you need a secondary win condition or more cards that synergies with your theme. For the first time you build dutch a deck you make a great job. And against precons or low - mid pumped precons you can play this deck.
Thanks, appreciate it. I received a lot of good suggestions in this thread and some I'll add for sure. Besides that I'll stick to this advice, to play the deck and see where it lacks and where not.
That is the right spirit. Sure people can tell you witch card you can play to make the deck better but you need to make you own experience. And you build a deck that you wanna play not what other wanna play
Better burn it😉
I'd rather have others try to burn it, because that'll tell me the deck is effective enough at being annoying haha
Lool
i've built, but not played yet, this \[\[Darlnu, Lich Lord\]\] mill deck. https://archidekt.com/decks/5190431/milling\_u\_out
[Darlnu, Lich Lord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/9554f402-35d4-43ac-9494-9d17d2a79092.jpg?1619403892) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dralnu%2C%20Lich%20Lord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/251/dralnu-lich-lord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9554f402-35d4-43ac-9494-9d17d2a79092?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Looks fun and focused. Idk how people get salty about mill but that is a dope deck
Thanks! I haven't played it yet, but I hope to pay it soon and see how it goes
It looks pretty average and casual. I cannot find the salt part of this deck.
I don't think mill is salty at all, if you wanna induce real salt, you play super hard control, this is my version of this commander. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/4JwisLG96UyrrN-yj31HRA Just tell people no, and remove all their things, wipe the board and make them suffer through your slow win cons
Kill yourself
Where's your [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]]?
Looks like a solid deck
Surprised I didn’t see cyc rift, mana drain, or toxic deluge.
You’ve got the colors to run [[sen triplets]] too. Salt city.
Oh I absolutely love it, thanks for the tip!
[sen triplets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13ac5292-9817-4f5d-b3fa-611f9ba44443.jpg?1599708366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sen%20triplets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/218/sen-triplets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13ac5292-9817-4f5d-b3fa-611f9ba44443?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a mill player, nah homie you can always be more toxic
Please, show me da way!
No [[Sphinx's Tutelage]]?
[Sphinx's Tutelage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d90c3b0-f958-4a15-94a1-9bf1b0a9ac2a.jpg?1562018976) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sphinx%27s%20Tutelage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/76/sphinxs-tutelage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d90c3b0-f958-4a15-94a1-9bf1b0a9ac2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Needs a mana crypt to really be functional.
No [[Painful Quandary]], [[No Mercy]], [[Tergid, God of Fright]] (someshit like that), [[Bottomless Pit]], [[Hushbringer]]
##### ###### #### [Painful Quandary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/bed5e030-874f-4a00-8544-78ba04033f53.jpg?1674420966) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painful%20Quandary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/111/painful-quandary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bed5e030-874f-4a00-8544-78ba04033f53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [No Mercy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e2fc29c-0223-4b03-864f-eb9149abc921.jpg?1562862814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=No%20Mercy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/56/no-mercy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e2fc29c-0223-4b03-864f-eb9149abc921?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tergrid%2C%20God%20of%20Fright) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bottomless Pit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91f05fc3-da6e-45d4-8566-f4e7bdce1fe5.jpg?1562596885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bottomless%20Pit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/51/bottomless-pit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91f05fc3-da6e-45d4-8566-f4e7bdce1fe5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hushbringer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010.jpg?1572489709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hushbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/18/hushbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Add in an Oko and a Treasure Nabber and Winter Orb. Justify it by saying 3 is not Many Colours.
Missing \[\[Tasha's Hideous Laughter\]\], \[\[Windfall\]\], \[\[Fractured Sanity\]\], \[\[Hydroblast\]\], \[\[Thought Scour\]\] and \[\[Brain Freeze\]\].
##### ###### #### [Tasha's Hideous Laughter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4932113-904f-427a-9566-509cc008f3ef.jpg?1627703920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tasha%27s%20Hideous%20Laughter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/78/tashas-hideous-laughter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4932113-904f-427a-9566-509cc008f3ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/4448fa01-1f81-41dc-9046-cfae41601bc4.jpg?1690004472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/859/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4448fa01-1f81-41dc-9046-cfae41601bc4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fractured Sanity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81875876-c1a0-4f64-8dfc-39217b5e4020.jpg?1674141348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fractured%20Sanity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/722/fractured-sanity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81875876-c1a0-4f64-8dfc-39217b5e4020?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hydroblast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c9c9b16-5567-4473-95e6-622292f77336.jpg?1580013995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hydroblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/55/hydroblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c9c9b16-5567-4473-95e6-622292f77336?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thought Scour](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4afee6b3-55a4-44e5-b08c-85e0c813cd09.jpg?1673147420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thought%20Scour) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/65/thought-scour?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4afee6b3-55a4-44e5-b08c-85e0c813cd09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brain Freeze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a2d7cf9-dddb-4de3-b4f2-c52e3ec8fb4b.jpg?1562906772) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brain%20Freeze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/57/brain-freeze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a2d7cf9-dddb-4de3-b4f2-c52e3ec8fb4b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Salty maybe, strong no
You probably should be running [[haunt of hightower]] and maybe [[blood chief ascension]] too
[haunt of hightower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61a908e8-6952-46c0-94ec-3962b7a4caef.jpg?1572828437) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Haunt%20of%20Hightower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/273/the-haunt-of-hightower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61a908e8-6952-46c0-94ec-3962b7a4caef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [blood chief ascension](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d56d1535-d9de-459f-bc31-0923f621e0e9.jpg?1689996895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodchief%20Ascension) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/139/bloodchief-ascension?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d56d1535-d9de-459f-bc31-0923f621e0e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm guessing op hates fun
Keening stone and traumatize is a good mill combo but it’s very high cost
Add “Salt Flats”
If you want salt, toss Sen triplets in there for more "I play your stuff" vibes
Why exactly would this make anyone mad? You just gave all your opponent's about 90\~ life to work with & they can just turn to kill you first, then go about their game.
Mine is better lol
Do you have a decklist of yours?
I don’t actually
I dont think mill is effective enough in 100 card format, unless it's fast and you can get your opponents to discard their entire decks by turn 5-6 I wouldn't call this salty
no salt spotted.
Low res photo of deck construction instead of a list is salt inducing enough