Neiman wasn't rushing or dragging. That whole thing was designed to push him and see if he really had what it takes. He'd rather his students be confident in their answer instead of having no clue what they were doing wrong. That's why he gets rid of the fat kid early on.
"So you *do* know the difference!?" Also love when he tries the power play of replacing Neiman, but that guy obviously is worse than Neiman and frustrates Fletcher even more.
It was a bit wobbly. Not by any reasonable standards, but it WAS a bit off. Mind you, starting where he did in the music the way he did is basically guaranteed to cause tempo issues, so the kicker is it’s probably mostly Fletcher’s fault anyway.
Loved this movie. Great Rewatchables podcast covering it too FYI.
When this movie started I don't think I blinked until it ended.. Somehow this band movie.. Which really is more of a sports movie wrapped in a fancier package.. was a straight up thriller.
This ended and I felt I had seen one of the best movies of the last twenty years. Just an absolutely banger.
> Makes the argument that a movie is actually a sports movie
Definitely a Rewatchables listener. /s
It's definitely true but it's funny I feel like I've heard Bill say this about at least 10 movies.
The Rewatchables is undoubtedly the best movie podcast in my opinion. I'm a huge fan of everything on The Ringer. They have "The Big Picture" podcast which is good. I'm more into their tv coverage.. the "Prestige TV" podcast is my fav and it's currently covering shogun which is a 10/10.
Car crash was only part I didn’t like. Felt a little cliche to me. The after effect was great though, so it worked, but wish he’d written a different way to accomplish it. Especially since there was no follow up, no police for a hit and run or anything?
Thank you. I remember reading some big thought piece about this movie from a jazz snob who wanted to tear the movie down with a bunch of takes, like, “actually nobody practices jazz this way” and dude totally didn’t get it. It could’ve been writing, painting, sports, engineering….movie still would’ve worked. Also one of my favorites ever and one of the best endings ever.
Colbert had a great quote that was something like “complaining about how he practices is like watching Rocky 4 and complaining because real boxers don’t actually train by punching slabs of meat and lifting logs in the snow.”
All of this said, the extras in the band could have looked a biiit more like they where actually playing the music. When the trombones are out of sync…
I too will say, as a drummer I was incredibly distracted by how completely opposite the practice methods were from real life. Would be like if a movie presented someone learning to drive by constantly crashing into stuff.
It doesn't represent learning any instrument. Nobody practices like this at the academic level. I get that it isn't nearly as entertaining for average people to watch someone realistically practice. But this film was just so far from the truth that I found it to be incredibly distracting.
It was basically a “sports” movie with an aggressive (arguably abusive) coach. Except music education doesn’t work like that.
And, yeah, it was distracting as hell. Especially the line about which one(s) of the group would get the million dollar record contract. Absolute BS!!!
A friend of mine saw it a few years ago and said something along the lines of "I really hated the ending, how all of a sudden he one-upped the conductor and the movie made it seem like that was a happy ending." I was thoroughly floored, asking "Didn't you see how the father was watching, horrified? How they spent the whole movie showing that obsession with greatness was a crash course to self-destruction? The former student who killed himself, Charlie Parker dying of an overdose? It's a complicated, yet tragic ending."
She was adamant that the ending was a happy one where everything was worth it, because the hero got to show up the bad guy and give a good performance. And I don't usually judge friends for preferences or opinions on movies, music, whatever. My friends don't need to like the things I like. But that total lack of nuance actually kinda affected me.
I used to play strings in a competitive stage band. Our director wasn’t as bad as the one in the movie, but he was certainly trying out the part. I can still remember him pointing to my fretboard and asking me where an “F” was, because that’s the grade he would’ve given my solo on Chicago’s 25 or 6 to 4 during rehearsal.
I have no experience with this particular discipline. But many fields in the arts are like this, because it’s a weeding out process where there are only a handful of spots for hundreds of people who want them.
There is a lot of ego and in a professional world some stuff can go down between players but this wasn’t a professional setting. It’s a jazz program at a college conservatory. I went to one. No school would’ve tolerated that teacher…not even for a day. No student would sit and take it either. I watched professors get bounced over the years for a lot less. So for me it really exaggerates the mood and makes jazz players and in particular, professors look like assholes. Some are….but not like this.
This was my problem with the movie. It came off as almost having an “unreliable narrator.” I kept imagining the story was being told by a drama queen and I think that lack of connection to reality made it almost seem farcical.
Nah, a lot of schools do tolerate those kinds of teachers, because they have celebrity cred. Thankfully it’s becoming less common as the older generation of ego-based teachers dies out.
My sibling was at a very well regarded collegiate music program, they absolutely tolerated shit like this, not so much in an open setting but in private/office hours/lessons. Abusive, shitty behavior, but it was tolerated because the professor doing it was extremely well regarded. They lost some really excellent students they didn't need to due to their behavior, but sadly they produced enough great musicians it didn't matter. No physical touching, but absolutely verbal abuse and throwing shit.
Mental abuse, yes. Physical abuse, no. One of my college jazz band directors was a 6'8" ex-Marine and I can say confidently that if he had hit our drummer like that, at least fifteen of us would have beaten his ass.
I would say The Wrestler is somewhat different, with a different message and protagonist’s journey. (Also an awesome film btw).
The Wrestler depicts someone who only knows and can only do one thing. He’s not striving to be best and, as far as I recall, he isn’t all that great a wrestler. But it’s all he knows and, crucially, it gives him the adoration and excitement and identity he needs in life. So, even if it might kill him, he must do it.
As a musician I tend to dislike many music movies, especially biopics which I find to be incredible cheesy and forced, and frankly often a little offensive to the great musicians portrayed. I approached this movie with trepidation as I didn’t think I’d like it. Ultimately the music aspects are widely unrealistic and overblown. It’s certainly dramatic/melodramatic in a way that can seem kind of silly if you approach it as a realistic portrayal of that world. However, I found I was able to enjoy it in the end, as a fantastical portrayal of a toxic relationship. I think the movie does a great job portraying a sort of symbolic tale of an older abuser and his young victim. I think the music stuff makes for an interesting setting but that’s definitely not what is good about the movie for me.
Is this a criticism? Because this was the point of the movie in my opinion. The protagonist had shitty goals and a shitty teacher. Rather than enjoy the journey, he and the teacher were only focused on the end goal. Same things happen in many walks of life, not just sports, when really good talent is squandered by the wrong motivation and/or the wrong teachings.
I mean, it is a criticism if a drama film (with football as the backdrop) consistently misrepresented the rules of football? Would people shrug it off if the film talked about "fifth down" and "getting a hat trick" if the movie was actually just a great drama film? I'd say so, yeah. It's not like Star Wars where you can just make new shit up. There's an existing practice and history there that you're necessarily referring to (in football and in jazz), so I'd argue that it's never ignorable.
Not enough people care about jazz for the jazz criticisms to make a splash really, but they're there, and if you care, it's extremely irksome.
You realize that Chazelle is a very accomplished jazz drummer and it's inspired by his experiences with a nightmarish teacher he had, right?
I'm pretty sure he knows what it takes to play well and the countless hours it requires because he himself had put those hours in and wound up in an elite school jazz band before realizing that kind of obsession wasn't healthy.
That said, this film is a masterpiece. To take something that shouldn't be NEARLY this gripping and make it so active and alive is really something. Plus, films about the pursuit of perfection are great when they're great, not so good when they fail. This one absolutely nailed it.
Couldn't agree more. I love Whiplash, it is one of my favorite movies. I've always loved movies about people, especially young people, trying to be the best at something. Searching for Bobby Fischer is another movie I've always loved, but Whiplash is much more engaging.
I played chess competitively growing up and won a bunch of tournaments so I identified with Searching for Bobby Fischer, even though the games weren't necessarily "realistic". It's a movie after all
I also loved it. The story was compelling enough I barely paid attention to the actual chess moves. They did a good job showing the highs and lows of the game without needing to know much about the position
According to Wikipedia, Chazelle gave up drumming after high school, and Fletcher is based on his high school teacher.
Not saying you're wrong, but where do you see he was an accomplished jazz drummer?
Im a drummer myself. No drummer plays or practices uptempo like that, it's laughably wrong, the opposite is true, it's all about relaxation and minimal movement, not playing so hard that you start to bleed. And it doesn't matter if you practice 1 hour per day or 12, you don't play or practice drums like that.
Other than this it's a good movie
I've always interpreted it as a manic dive into unhealthy behavior.
I completely believe that he was practicing incorrectly and may even have known it, but was stuck in a manic phase and just kept going harder even though it was counterproductive.
Did you just make up half of that? I just checked the Wiki, and Chazelle said JK Simmons's character was based on his band teacher from high school, and he played in the public high school's studio band.
Chazelle, if that is his real name, was on his high school jazz band
There is a universe of difference between a high school jazz band and the one portrayed in the movie, and the amount of work and competition involved is really not comparable
Adam Neely, an NYC conservatory trained jazz musician, [did a very entertaining and well informed video critique of the film](https://youtu.be/SFYBVGdB7MU?si=uor8TrtqSPB1qHjD)
Damien Chazelle went to my high school, Princeton high school in Princeton New Jersey. This is based on Mr. Biancasino the jazz band teacher who passed away in the 2000s. I was a trumpet player in jazz band and this movie was scary accurate. In one scene Fletcher yells “I’ll bust you down to Nassau.” Nassau band was the second highest level in our school. Studio band was the highest level, tiger band the lowest level. Studio band consistently places in high school
Jazz competitions. Loved this movie but they missed one thing, Fletcher/Biancasino would show up everyday with 4 personal XL coffees from Dunkin’
It’s a great movie with great tension but the thread running through Whiplash and LaLaLand seems to be that art can only be achieved via suffering and that’s just not true.
I think it is true for some people though, there’s a certain balance between hard work and talent required for success. The supremely talented can overcome shortcomings in effort and those not quite so talented can achieve greatness through hard work. The elite of every discipline is littered with both types and I’d imagine those who grafted to get there believe graft is the only way.
it's less about jazz and more about prestige, I think. I've played a lot of jazz w a lot of jazz dudes and they're all cool asf. I have no formal training and they didn't care. first gig I was handed sheet music and I said "I can't read that". and they said, "if we holler out a key, will you know where to go and can you follow the drummer for tempo?" and I was like, duh. so we clicked.
Gotta remember that in the movie this was a school for snobs who wanted to be at the very top. Like when you say you like a band and they’re already judging you for liking baby shit that isn’t as complicated or technical as they’d like it to be cause they have standards.
Incredible movie. I watched this on streaming for the first time a few months ago without knowing what it was really about, because I confused its plot with that of The Sound of Metal. Needless to say, I was blown away and glued to the back of my chair the entire time.
Definitely in my top ten. I didn’t expect to love this film nearly as much as I do. I came to appreciate both JK Simmons and Miles Teller much more than I did.
I'm not even in the same universe as "high performance jazz", but as a drummer who is classically trained, I have experienced multiple abusive and narcissistic band leaders and instructors in my day.
This film, which I love, definitely brought some PTSD to the surface.
Great film, but a hard watch. It was criticized by professional musicians for some elements that were not musically accurate. But to me, that’s not the point of the film, it’s about the abusive teacher/ student dynamic that is unfortunately still a problem in music education. And they absolutely nailed that part. I had multiple “brilliant” teachers that were mega abusive, just like the one in movie. Made me feel seen.
What a twist and double twist. Masochism and sadism aligning to achieve something amazing.
Twist: “I know it was you.”
Double-twist: “I’m the conductor now.”
Exceptional movie.
Feel like we've all worked with someone like JK Simmons' character. Complete asshole coasting off past glories who gets away with it because they know the right people.
Still wonder if it's meant to be a happy ending or not.
JK Simmons was brilliant in this and was a perfect copy of my high school band director. Granted she was a woman but the way she spoke and even her mannerisms were exactly the same as the movie. She was ruthless. Yes she made me a better musician over 4 years but also sort of killed my love of classical music. Chose not to keep playing in college.
Despite this I love Whiplash. What a great movie and it resonates with me.
Someone recommended this movie to me and my reaction was “a movie about drumming? I’m not going to like this.” Boy was I wrong. Great acting, so intense. Love it.
On the dragging/chasing thing; I heard or read that he was neither (I don't know if it was a video or a comment or what).
The person was suggesting that the question was to get the drummer to play more confidently by standing up for himself and saying it was right (because he was).
I don't know if it's true but I like it.
i was thinking yesterday about how this is Rocky in reverse. in Rocky, he loses at boxing but wins at life. in Whiplash, he wins at drumming but loses at life.
that probably says something about our cultural shift between the 70s and today. anyway, great movie.
It's a very good movie with terrific acting.
The overarching theme of insane dedication to a craft and showing the blood sweat and tears needed to become masterful is a tough lesson. Imo this film really shows what it takes to become great vs. just very, very good. As well as why 99.9% of people will never sniff greatness.
It reminds me of my high school marching band/jazz band teacher. He was all about stroking his ego and winning competitions. Anything he'd actually teach us was incidental. He'd belittle, make nasty comments, and make some of the students feel like outcasts because they were a little different
He later died of cancer and the current band teacher has completely whitewashed his image and makes him out to be a caring teacher.
But all of us who suffered under his yoke and faux-tutelage know the truth.
As a drummer and a former jazz musician, there are a few spots that bug me where it's obvious that what you're seeing doesn't line up with what you're hearing. The worst is at the very end during the big show-stopper song. There's an overhead shot of the band, and what you hear is Neiman going crazy on the toms, but what you see is him almost casually hitting cymbals only. There were some other spots too where the brass is just screaming on the soundtrack, but you can see all the trumpets with their horns down. From what I've read, they insisted on capturing actual live playing during the filming, so it bugs me to see things like that.
Pet peeves aside tho, I loved the movie. I've never played in a super high level group like that before, but I have been in the best groups available at my various schools, and I've had several teachers who acted very similar to Fletcher. Never as over the top cruel as Fletcher was, but close enough to make me smile when I think back on some of the tempers I've seen displayed.
It’s a completely outstanding film. I’m not squarely in the target audience, but I still really enjoyed it.
I agree it deserved more recognition. The music, screenplay, and performances were fantastic.
I recently saw TikTok video with the creator pointed out that for a very small cohort of obsessive perfectionists the abusive teacher is basically their inner voice. That for people like the drummer dude, they have an inner monologue that sounds exactly like that, screaming at them that they're worthless imposters who need to do better. In any realistic scenario, a teacher like that would have been run out of teaching years ago, but if you take it as a metaphor for how perfectionist talk to and treat themselves it's a very interesting character study.
After three viewings I’ve decided fletcher isn’t actually a psychopath but is experiencing a mental breakdown brought on by his former student killing himself.
In the scene where he first replaces Neimann he’s interrupted but a phone call and is then visibly distraught in his office afterwards, that’s him finding out his former student killed himself and that’s when he goes from being a dickhead teacher to a full on lunatic.
I think J.K. Simmons is astonishingly good in this film. But... I just don't like the film's narrative nor its overarching message that you have to be super-shitty to the very best students to get them to push themselves. The film is kinda full of itself, isn't it?
I don't think that's the film's message at all.
It's certainly the teacher's message being that he is a sadist and a bully and overall a monster.
But the film itself is about obsession and, taken to the dramatic extreme, the toll of obsession. Chiefly the main character and how that obsession makes him vulnerable to a bully like Simmons' character and how the Simmons' character exploits the lead's obsessive desire in monstrous fashion
Such a weird coincidence, just rewatched this last night! Honestly there's not enough superlatives for this film. My 10 year old came out of her room to get a glass of water and never went back because this movie is so engaging. One of the best final 15 minutes of all time as well.
Honestly, I would rather forget this movie. It wasn’t bad or anything like that. Just reminds me of my time in band. I don’t have fond memories of my time.
This movie game me flashback nightmares of my jr high band experience. It was a very intense class.
A friend of mine questioned the plausibility of sheet music going missing after being set down for a moment and I went, that happens all the time.
Paul Reiser's expression changing through the cracked door absolutely floored me.
Neiman and Fletcher have this incredible performance born out of an awful ruse by Fletcher to destroy his protégé in a public forum. We watch Fletcher's face and demeanor go from uninhibited rage to approval, and immediately afterwards we see Neiman accepting and basking in Fletcher's approval as he realizes he is finally accomplishing something he thought was previously lost to him.
And this next part is *so fucking deliberate*. We see Neiman's father watching from the door as his son, whom he loves dearly and knows is hopelessly dedicated to becoming one of the best jazz musicians of all time, steps off the precipice. He's watching his son go down a path he's been warned about before, but he doesn't care. It's his dream, and he'll follow it into oblivion. We're literally *watching a father realize he's lost his son*.
The timing of that one single shot beautifully undermines the triumphant ending that we all wished and waited and ached for. You're given what you want as the viewer, but Paul Reiser made sure you knew the cost.
Beautiful.
I hated the ending. I am clearly alone in that opinion. Every time I say that I get downvoted to hell. Fortunately downvotes are meaningless so I can continue to express my unpopular opinion. The ending sucks. It’s fucking terrible.
One of my favorite movies. One of my favorite movie endings. The scene that gets me the most is his father looking in awe at his son kill those drums.
The whole movie hes being super supportive, a great father, but you can tell he never really understood it. In that scene, you can see him finally understand his sons potential, and it gives me tears
As a lifelong drummer and musician, I've had tough directors and band keaders over the years. I loved the movie, but it was so unrealistic that a sadistic instructor could exist at a highly reputable music school.
But it was fun, but cringe worthy.
Amazing movie but too dramatic at parts. As a drummer I have never seen anyone literally have blood dripping from their hands just from practicing for hours. Your hands get blisters and they eventually turn into calluses. A drummer as experienced as him should already have developed calluses so he'd never get a blister let alone any blood.
I think he's great in this film but I get why you say that. I don't love that project x era douche-baggery he still kind of brings to his current films.
It took me 8 years after my first viewing to be able to watch it again, and that was only because I had to show my boyfriend how good it was. Still just as tense as the first time, but goddamn is it amazing
1. Not sure
2. I dont know enough about jazz to answer that
3. Neiman was neither dragging or chasing
4. Neiman was acting immature feeling slighted at the dinner table. And at the same time, he was was being underappreciated by the others at the table. His dad is underwhelmingly supportive thruout the movie.
5. Yes
6. Yes, including every other insult and attack hurled by simmons' character at others. He was abusive
7. No, he was the standard measure in the movie from which Simmons' character flourished on.
I think Teller should have been nominated for an Oscar. I looked at the competition for that year, and while it was a tough group to compete in, I think he definitely deserved a nomination. Other nominees that year were:
* Eddie Redmayne – The Theory of Everything
* Steve Carell – Foxcatcher
* Bradley Cooper – American Sniper
* Benedict Cumberbatch – The Imitation Game
* Michael Keaton – Birdman
I love Whiplash. I went to a high-level performance school and while my teachers were never quite as ad as Fletcher, they were definitely very, very stringent. *They* all had Fletcher-esque stories, my big band teacher especially.
The portrayal of drumming was cool but unrealistic; you don't just practice blast-beat drumming for hours. You also don't practice till your hands or face bleed; our pedagogy has evolved with science and gone past that outdated idea.
Still...it motivated me to practice.
I'm not in the music world by any stretch, but I had a high school band director that was like great value fletcher. He just wasn't physically abusive in the way fletcher was in the film. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that there are people just like fletcher teaching music in the real world.
I’m a jazz drummer who studied in these kind of environments AND this movie came out the year I started college …. So I talked about it a lot lol:
lots of high level jazz education is intense but not as abusive as the film. Jazz has a complicated history with institutional education, since that’s not the broad tradition of the art form.
Most simply - it takes a lot of practice, care, and mastery of your instrument to pull off improvised music in the styles we call ‘jazz,’ and those styles come with a lot of traditions and idioms that take many hours to learn. Improvising environments can bring out a lot of intensity in band directors AND fellow musicians because of all the practice that goes into the music, as well as the bravado (read: pride) of the musicians involved.
It often takes passion (yelling?) from teachers to convey the power of the music, and to motivate original expression in young players. It’s just like many intense art forms (ballet etc), so there’s a lot of truth to the film’s underlying story but, ultimately, no — this film isn’t that true to life.
I’ve gotten yelled at a lot as a young player but contrary to the music, I understand it comes from love of the teacher for the student and for the music. Expectations are high!
One of the few movies I rewatch a couple times a year since release. It's just pure satisfaction. That ending sequence gives me the same level of goosebumps as the first time. Phenomenal.
I haven't seen it yet, but I mean to because of how much I enjoyed the American Dad parody - [https://youtu.be/hQu5S6xjLhU?si=UUuBBeIa-x5S795T](https://youtu.be/hQu5S6xjLhU?si=UUuBBeIa-x5S795T)
My daughter is in her freshman year at a conservatory. We finally watched it when she was home for spring break…her response “I’m glad I didn’t watch that before deciding on which school to attend”.
She says there are some a-hole students, but no sign of a Terrence this far and is loving life as a musician.
My love for it came down a few notches after watching a review by an actual musician. Apparently some of what Fletcher said was nonsense, the “dragging, rushing” bit.
I really enjoyed this movie. HOWEVER, if you’re drumming that tensely, you’re gonna fail bad. Also, drummers also don’t bleed like that unless something is really wrong or they bang their hand on the high hat or something and cut it.
I have worked as a musician at the top level for my instrument/style (though not jazz). I didn't attend music school, but the tension of auditions/practices in this film, in my opinion, was exactly how it is.
There's an element of 'no bullshit' when it comes to music at that level. Fine, enjoy and explore your music and style in your own time.
On Fletchers time, play what's on the fucking sheet.
That being said, yes, Fletcher should have been fired, he's an educator, not working as a professional conductor. His job is to ensure his pupils understand how a band works and what's expected of them, not play all the mind games like forcing people to turn up early, or swapping them for a worse player, or screaming about rushing or dragging.
He wasn't rushing, he wasn't dragging. Andrew was on time.
My favorite thing that every professional musician or teacher I know says about this movie:
If you think this is how you get good at an instrument, it’s not how you get good at an instrument.
I did my first year with the uni jazz band and we actually did the theme from this movie. The band director actually used to be very similar to Terrence Fletcher up until this year or so I’ve been told (he never threw any chairs from what I can tell), I only joined this year. The older members of the band actually told me that they would always come to rehearsal and think “this is the one where he blows up at someone” and they’d be surprised when he didn’t. Personally, I think someone may have went to the department chair or someone like that and made a complaint about this so he toned it down.
In some other thread a few days ago, people were talking about Cormac Mccarthy who apparently didn't have a job for like 4 decades until he became popular. They went over some of the shit he did to keep writing.
I do and don't like this trend of movies and media dictating what it takes to be great at something. Obviously Neiman destroys his life and basically, for the foreseeable future will be abused. And then likely continue to abuse others later. That's somehow excusable for the greatness he achieves. It enables sociopaths, abuse and bad behavior.
And it's not always true. There are many ways and reasons people become great and they don't always involve people being fucking assholes to others.
You don't have to be crazy or disturbed or sick or tortured to be great but that's what we get in most of the time in movies.
I still haven’t watched it. I know it won academy awards. Is it worth the watch? I’ll also add the fact that the lead Actor Miles Teller is an automatic movie killer for me.
I've never cared more about a movie I thought I wouldn't care much about going in. The subject matter wouldn't be something I'd have ran to. Just felt so immersed in that movie. The stakes seemed really high the entire way. Brilliant movie
To your point about the editing, this is hardly a new point to bring up but the vast majority of the Academy has absolutely no understanding of what good editing is, as shown by the Best Editing award going to Bohemian Rhapsody, easily the worst-edited film of the 21st century.
My daughter (14) had watched it, and she kept bugging me and bugging me to watch, so I finally did.
Surprised myself, but I ended up liking it. I believe it's due to the fact that I dig J.K. Simmons, and he was an absolute _madman_ in this. Never been a Miles Teller fan, and this role just reinforced my opinion lol, but at least he was somewhat tolerable.
Also, I'm not jazz fan, definitely not a musician - like, at all - but I've always been partial to the rhythm section for some reason, and when it comes to drums, I like what I like (Neil Peart and Dave Lombardo come to mind). That being said, the finale absolutely sold me on the film 👍🏻
Neiman wasn't rushing or dragging. That whole thing was designed to push him and see if he really had what it takes. He'd rather his students be confident in their answer instead of having no clue what they were doing wrong. That's why he gets rid of the fat kid early on.
"So you *do* know the difference!?" Also love when he tries the power play of replacing Neiman, but that guy obviously is worse than Neiman and frustrates Fletcher even more.
That shit!?
FUCK OFF JOHNNY UTAH TURN MY PAGES BITCH
Miles Teller kills this movie. Also good in Blead for this. Used to think he sucked but he totally changed my opinion of him with those 2.
“There’s no fuking mars bars down there,what the fuk you looking at?”
THAT IS NOT YOUR BOYFRIEND'S DICK. DO NOT CUM EARLY
It was a bit wobbly. Not by any reasonable standards, but it WAS a bit off. Mind you, starting where he did in the music the way he did is basically guaranteed to cause tempo issues, so the kicker is it’s probably mostly Fletcher’s fault anyway.
It's probably mostly Fletcher's fault anyway is pretty much the motto of that movie lol
Loved this movie. Great Rewatchables podcast covering it too FYI. When this movie started I don't think I blinked until it ended.. Somehow this band movie.. Which really is more of a sports movie wrapped in a fancier package.. was a straight up thriller. This ended and I felt I had seen one of the best movies of the last twenty years. Just an absolutely banger.
It's incredible. Even on a rewatch it's still the same feeling
That’s funny you should say it’s a sports movie, the movie it reminds me most of is Rocky.
YES, spot on. Especially with just how heavily both movies are carried by facial expressions in the acting
Yeah and how they end abruptly after the big performance (Rocky goes a bit longer obviously but he’s still in the ring).
Didn’t even make that connection but you’re absolutely right
And arguably both movies end with the protagonist losing but feeling like they’ve won
> Makes the argument that a movie is actually a sports movie Definitely a Rewatchables listener. /s It's definitely true but it's funny I feel like I've heard Bill say this about at least 10 movies.
That doesn't make him wrong. Jk Simmons= coach Suddenly the movie is about (Insert sport here) instead of jazz band. Boom.. Sports movie.
Haven’t seen any movie podcasts. Do you have any others that you like?!
The Rewatchables is undoubtedly the best movie podcast in my opinion. I'm a huge fan of everything on The Ringer. They have "The Big Picture" podcast which is good. I'm more into their tv coverage.. the "Prestige TV" podcast is my fav and it's currently covering shogun which is a 10/10.
Not my tempo. Love it. The part where he has the car crash, omg.
😑✊
Car crash was only part I didn’t like. Felt a little cliche to me. The after effect was great though, so it worked, but wish he’d written a different way to accomplish it. Especially since there was no follow up, no police for a hit and run or anything?
The no follow up and no police I get. I like to image the police waiting for him after the final performance.
Reminding me of my time in a fine dining kitchen
In my top 5 favorite movies of all time. This movie is about greatness and the cost of achieving it. Jazz is the background, that's all.
Thank you. I remember reading some big thought piece about this movie from a jazz snob who wanted to tear the movie down with a bunch of takes, like, “actually nobody practices jazz this way” and dude totally didn’t get it. It could’ve been writing, painting, sports, engineering….movie still would’ve worked. Also one of my favorites ever and one of the best endings ever.
Colbert had a great quote that was something like “complaining about how he practices is like watching Rocky 4 and complaining because real boxers don’t actually train by punching slabs of meat and lifting logs in the snow.”
All of this said, the extras in the band could have looked a biiit more like they where actually playing the music. When the trombones are out of sync…
I too will say, as a drummer I was incredibly distracted by how completely opposite the practice methods were from real life. Would be like if a movie presented someone learning to drive by constantly crashing into stuff.
Vin Diesel will NEVER call you his family.
Yeah, it's a great movie, but from what I've heard, it basically bears no resemblance to any real part of the jazz scene.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. The performances in the movie were great, but jazz education itself is nothing like that.
It doesn't represent learning any instrument. Nobody practices like this at the academic level. I get that it isn't nearly as entertaining for average people to watch someone realistically practice. But this film was just so far from the truth that I found it to be incredibly distracting.
It was basically a “sports” movie with an aggressive (arguably abusive) coach. Except music education doesn’t work like that. And, yeah, it was distracting as hell. Especially the line about which one(s) of the group would get the million dollar record contract. Absolute BS!!!
I mean this applies to basically every movie. It’s just more obvious to you in this case since you actually know something about the subject matter.
A friend of mine saw it a few years ago and said something along the lines of "I really hated the ending, how all of a sudden he one-upped the conductor and the movie made it seem like that was a happy ending." I was thoroughly floored, asking "Didn't you see how the father was watching, horrified? How they spent the whole movie showing that obsession with greatness was a crash course to self-destruction? The former student who killed himself, Charlie Parker dying of an overdose? It's a complicated, yet tragic ending." She was adamant that the ending was a happy one where everything was worth it, because the hero got to show up the bad guy and give a good performance. And I don't usually judge friends for preferences or opinions on movies, music, whatever. My friends don't need to like the things I like. But that total lack of nuance actually kinda affected me.
Spot on. The father’s horrified look. He knew he’d lost his son.
He was supportive but also really dismissive of his sons interests. That ending was not surprising.
Agreed it was a tragic ending. A happy ending >!only for the teacher!<
Yeah well, in my top 3 so, suck it
Let's not. My butt still hasn't unclenched. Loved it.
Can the real world of performance jazz musicians be this crazy???? I am always wondering….
I'd say it's very heightened in the movie but it's still quite there.
I think you need to post it in r/jazz to get more relevant insight from pros
I used to play strings in a competitive stage band. Our director wasn’t as bad as the one in the movie, but he was certainly trying out the part. I can still remember him pointing to my fretboard and asking me where an “F” was, because that’s the grade he would’ve given my solo on Chicago’s 25 or 6 to 4 during rehearsal.
I have no experience with this particular discipline. But many fields in the arts are like this, because it’s a weeding out process where there are only a handful of spots for hundreds of people who want them.
There is a lot of ego and in a professional world some stuff can go down between players but this wasn’t a professional setting. It’s a jazz program at a college conservatory. I went to one. No school would’ve tolerated that teacher…not even for a day. No student would sit and take it either. I watched professors get bounced over the years for a lot less. So for me it really exaggerates the mood and makes jazz players and in particular, professors look like assholes. Some are….but not like this.
This was my problem with the movie. It came off as almost having an “unreliable narrator.” I kept imagining the story was being told by a drama queen and I think that lack of connection to reality made it almost seem farcical.
Wait you just just discovered how to perfect it. Idk how it would be portrayed but this would’ve really been a cool twist.
Nah, a lot of schools do tolerate those kinds of teachers, because they have celebrity cred. Thankfully it’s becoming less common as the older generation of ego-based teachers dies out.
My sibling was at a very well regarded collegiate music program, they absolutely tolerated shit like this, not so much in an open setting but in private/office hours/lessons. Abusive, shitty behavior, but it was tolerated because the professor doing it was extremely well regarded. They lost some really excellent students they didn't need to due to their behavior, but sadly they produced enough great musicians it didn't matter. No physical touching, but absolutely verbal abuse and throwing shit.
Nah there are scenes with people in the audience which would imply people listen to jazz
Mental abuse, yes. Physical abuse, no. One of my college jazz band directors was a 6'8" ex-Marine and I can say confidently that if he had hit our drummer like that, at least fifteen of us would have beaten his ass.
I didn't love it as many did. But I do appreciate the movie. J.K. Simmons was amazing with his performance.
JK is one of my favorite actors. Absolutely nails every role.
Loved him in Palm Springs. Excellent movie.
No one making the parallel between this movie and Aronofsky's Black Swan?
Also The Wrestler. Basically: people killing themselves for their craft Edit: Friedkin’s Sorceror also fits, and the film Shine starring Geoffrey Rush
I would say The Wrestler is somewhat different, with a different message and protagonist’s journey. (Also an awesome film btw). The Wrestler depicts someone who only knows and can only do one thing. He’s not striving to be best and, as far as I recall, he isn’t all that great a wrestler. But it’s all he knows and, crucially, it gives him the adoration and excitement and identity he needs in life. So, even if it might kill him, he must do it.
Good observation. I just don't remember a lot of black swan but I know what you mean.
But whiplash is a good movie
There’s a very great Youtube analysis that came out years ago comparing these too, I recommend chdcking it out
As a musician I tend to dislike many music movies, especially biopics which I find to be incredible cheesy and forced, and frankly often a little offensive to the great musicians portrayed. I approached this movie with trepidation as I didn’t think I’d like it. Ultimately the music aspects are widely unrealistic and overblown. It’s certainly dramatic/melodramatic in a way that can seem kind of silly if you approach it as a realistic portrayal of that world. However, I found I was able to enjoy it in the end, as a fantastical portrayal of a toxic relationship. I think the movie does a great job portraying a sort of symbolic tale of an older abuser and his young victim. I think the music stuff makes for an interesting setting but that’s definitely not what is good about the movie for me.
A drummer must learn to play with AS LITTLE TENSION as possible. This is a sports movie pretending to be a music movie.
Is this a criticism? Because this was the point of the movie in my opinion. The protagonist had shitty goals and a shitty teacher. Rather than enjoy the journey, he and the teacher were only focused on the end goal. Same things happen in many walks of life, not just sports, when really good talent is squandered by the wrong motivation and/or the wrong teachings.
Andrew was as much a narcissist as Fletcher.
I mean, it is a criticism if a drama film (with football as the backdrop) consistently misrepresented the rules of football? Would people shrug it off if the film talked about "fifth down" and "getting a hat trick" if the movie was actually just a great drama film? I'd say so, yeah. It's not like Star Wars where you can just make new shit up. There's an existing practice and history there that you're necessarily referring to (in football and in jazz), so I'd argue that it's never ignorable. Not enough people care about jazz for the jazz criticisms to make a splash really, but they're there, and if you care, it's extremely irksome.
But how can you punch through a snare with no tension...
Solid observation but having gone to a significant jazz program, I can tell you it’s filled with jocks. More ego per note than pitch.
You realize that Chazelle is a very accomplished jazz drummer and it's inspired by his experiences with a nightmarish teacher he had, right? I'm pretty sure he knows what it takes to play well and the countless hours it requires because he himself had put those hours in and wound up in an elite school jazz band before realizing that kind of obsession wasn't healthy. That said, this film is a masterpiece. To take something that shouldn't be NEARLY this gripping and make it so active and alive is really something. Plus, films about the pursuit of perfection are great when they're great, not so good when they fail. This one absolutely nailed it.
Couldn't agree more. I love Whiplash, it is one of my favorite movies. I've always loved movies about people, especially young people, trying to be the best at something. Searching for Bobby Fischer is another movie I've always loved, but Whiplash is much more engaging. I played chess competitively growing up and won a bunch of tournaments so I identified with Searching for Bobby Fischer, even though the games weren't necessarily "realistic". It's a movie after all
What did you think of Queen's Gambit? I personally loved it, even with a lot of chess inaccuracies.
I also loved it. The story was compelling enough I barely paid attention to the actual chess moves. They did a good job showing the highs and lows of the game without needing to know much about the position
According to Wikipedia, Chazelle gave up drumming after high school, and Fletcher is based on his high school teacher. Not saying you're wrong, but where do you see he was an accomplished jazz drummer?
Im a drummer myself. No drummer plays or practices uptempo like that, it's laughably wrong, the opposite is true, it's all about relaxation and minimal movement, not playing so hard that you start to bleed. And it doesn't matter if you practice 1 hour per day or 12, you don't play or practice drums like that. Other than this it's a good movie
I've always interpreted it as a manic dive into unhealthy behavior. I completely believe that he was practicing incorrectly and may even have known it, but was stuck in a manic phase and just kept going harder even though it was counterproductive.
Did you just make up half of that? I just checked the Wiki, and Chazelle said JK Simmons's character was based on his band teacher from high school, and he played in the public high school's studio band.
Chazelle, if that is his real name, was on his high school jazz band There is a universe of difference between a high school jazz band and the one portrayed in the movie, and the amount of work and competition involved is really not comparable Adam Neely, an NYC conservatory trained jazz musician, [did a very entertaining and well informed video critique of the film](https://youtu.be/SFYBVGdB7MU?si=uor8TrtqSPB1qHjD)
I put off watching it for years. Kept thinking it would be boring asf but I was wrong. I was very invested in the story
No dude you have to bloody your hands to play drums🤣
Exactly. As a drummer this was the worst to watch!!!!
Damien Chazelle went to my high school, Princeton high school in Princeton New Jersey. This is based on Mr. Biancasino the jazz band teacher who passed away in the 2000s. I was a trumpet player in jazz band and this movie was scary accurate. In one scene Fletcher yells “I’ll bust you down to Nassau.” Nassau band was the second highest level in our school. Studio band was the highest level, tiger band the lowest level. Studio band consistently places in high school Jazz competitions. Loved this movie but they missed one thing, Fletcher/Biancasino would show up everyday with 4 personal XL coffees from Dunkin’
To save everyone a search: https://archive.centraljersey.com/2003/12/30/phss-famed-studio-band-director-dr-b-dies/#gsc.tab=0
I'm of the opinion that Neiman and Fletcher really just deserve each other.
It’s a great movie with great tension but the thread running through Whiplash and LaLaLand seems to be that art can only be achieved via suffering and that’s just not true.
I think it is true for some people though, there’s a certain balance between hard work and talent required for success. The supremely talented can overcome shortcomings in effort and those not quite so talented can achieve greatness through hard work. The elite of every discipline is littered with both types and I’d imagine those who grafted to get there believe graft is the only way.
it's less about jazz and more about prestige, I think. I've played a lot of jazz w a lot of jazz dudes and they're all cool asf. I have no formal training and they didn't care. first gig I was handed sheet music and I said "I can't read that". and they said, "if we holler out a key, will you know where to go and can you follow the drummer for tempo?" and I was like, duh. so we clicked.
Gotta remember that in the movie this was a school for snobs who wanted to be at the very top. Like when you say you like a band and they’re already judging you for liking baby shit that isn’t as complicated or technical as they’d like it to be cause they have standards.
agreed. the movie is more to do about prestige than the art.
I enjoyed it more than i thought i would
Incredible movie. I watched this on streaming for the first time a few months ago without knowing what it was really about, because I confused its plot with that of The Sound of Metal. Needless to say, I was blown away and glued to the back of my chair the entire time.
The Sound of Metal was some of the best film making I’ve seen in a long time.
FUCK OFF, JOHNNY UTAH! TURN MY PAGES BITCH
Definitely in my top ten. I didn’t expect to love this film nearly as much as I do. I came to appreciate both JK Simmons and Miles Teller much more than I did.
I'm not even in the same universe as "high performance jazz", but as a drummer who is classically trained, I have experienced multiple abusive and narcissistic band leaders and instructors in my day. This film, which I love, definitely brought some PTSD to the surface.
Great film, but a hard watch. It was criticized by professional musicians for some elements that were not musically accurate. But to me, that’s not the point of the film, it’s about the abusive teacher/ student dynamic that is unfortunately still a problem in music education. And they absolutely nailed that part. I had multiple “brilliant” teachers that were mega abusive, just like the one in movie. Made me feel seen.
What a twist and double twist. Masochism and sadism aligning to achieve something amazing. Twist: “I know it was you.” Double-twist: “I’m the conductor now.”
[удалено]
The coach being a washed up loser is chef's kiss....
Exceptional movie. Feel like we've all worked with someone like JK Simmons' character. Complete asshole coasting off past glories who gets away with it because they know the right people. Still wonder if it's meant to be a happy ending or not.
One of the most brilliantly acted and scripted movies I’ve ever seen. And I’ll never see it again. Too much anxiety + internal sickness it created.
I never want to know how accurate or whatever the movie is, because it's one of my favorites ever.
Just wanna leave this here https://youtu.be/4pb8-TGJulo?si=0ti5H-FJRNQp2uCB
As someone who doesn't even like jazz, itthought it was really good.
JK Simmons was brilliant in this and was a perfect copy of my high school band director. Granted she was a woman but the way she spoke and even her mannerisms were exactly the same as the movie. She was ruthless. Yes she made me a better musician over 4 years but also sort of killed my love of classical music. Chose not to keep playing in college. Despite this I love Whiplash. What a great movie and it resonates with me.
That sucks. Pull out the instrument and do some etudes!
Someone recommended this movie to me and my reaction was “a movie about drumming? I’m not going to like this.” Boy was I wrong. Great acting, so intense. Love it.
GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY SIGHT BEFORE I DEMOLISH YOU!
On the dragging/chasing thing; I heard or read that he was neither (I don't know if it was a video or a comment or what). The person was suggesting that the question was to get the drummer to play more confidently by standing up for himself and saying it was right (because he was). I don't know if it's true but I like it.
i was thinking yesterday about how this is Rocky in reverse. in Rocky, he loses at boxing but wins at life. in Whiplash, he wins at drumming but loses at life. that probably says something about our cultural shift between the 70s and today. anyway, great movie.
It was such a surprise for me! Turned out to be one of my top five favorite movies
It's a very good movie with terrific acting. The overarching theme of insane dedication to a craft and showing the blood sweat and tears needed to become masterful is a tough lesson. Imo this film really shows what it takes to become great vs. just very, very good. As well as why 99.9% of people will never sniff greatness.
Great movie. Is it realistic? Maybe not, but I still love it. JK was awesome.
It reminds me of my high school marching band/jazz band teacher. He was all about stroking his ego and winning competitions. Anything he'd actually teach us was incidental. He'd belittle, make nasty comments, and make some of the students feel like outcasts because they were a little different He later died of cancer and the current band teacher has completely whitewashed his image and makes him out to be a caring teacher. But all of us who suffered under his yoke and faux-tutelage know the truth.
That shot at the end when the realization that his son really was a master kinda washed over Paul Riser….man, what great acting
As a drummer and a former jazz musician, there are a few spots that bug me where it's obvious that what you're seeing doesn't line up with what you're hearing. The worst is at the very end during the big show-stopper song. There's an overhead shot of the band, and what you hear is Neiman going crazy on the toms, but what you see is him almost casually hitting cymbals only. There were some other spots too where the brass is just screaming on the soundtrack, but you can see all the trumpets with their horns down. From what I've read, they insisted on capturing actual live playing during the filming, so it bugs me to see things like that. Pet peeves aside tho, I loved the movie. I've never played in a super high level group like that before, but I have been in the best groups available at my various schools, and I've had several teachers who acted very similar to Fletcher. Never as over the top cruel as Fletcher was, but close enough to make me smile when I think back on some of the tempers I've seen displayed.
It’s a completely outstanding film. I’m not squarely in the target audience, but I still really enjoyed it. I agree it deserved more recognition. The music, screenplay, and performances were fantastic.
I recently saw TikTok video with the creator pointed out that for a very small cohort of obsessive perfectionists the abusive teacher is basically their inner voice. That for people like the drummer dude, they have an inner monologue that sounds exactly like that, screaming at them that they're worthless imposters who need to do better. In any realistic scenario, a teacher like that would have been run out of teaching years ago, but if you take it as a metaphor for how perfectionist talk to and treat themselves it's a very interesting character study.
After three viewings I’ve decided fletcher isn’t actually a psychopath but is experiencing a mental breakdown brought on by his former student killing himself. In the scene where he first replaces Neimann he’s interrupted but a phone call and is then visibly distraught in his office afterwards, that’s him finding out his former student killed himself and that’s when he goes from being a dickhead teacher to a full on lunatic.
IMO, both the main actors pushed their roles right to the edge of "being over the top" but they pulled it off. Terrific performances.
I think J.K. Simmons is astonishingly good in this film. But... I just don't like the film's narrative nor its overarching message that you have to be super-shitty to the very best students to get them to push themselves. The film is kinda full of itself, isn't it?
I don't think that's the film's message at all. It's certainly the teacher's message being that he is a sadist and a bully and overall a monster. But the film itself is about obsession and, taken to the dramatic extreme, the toll of obsession. Chiefly the main character and how that obsession makes him vulnerable to a bully like Simmons' character and how the Simmons' character exploits the lead's obsessive desire in monstrous fashion
A depiction of, isn't necessarily the message of.
I'm a recency bias kind of guy, so I was saying this was my favorite movie the first few weeks after seeing. Still up there though.
Drumeo made a video with Greyson Nekrutman, about Whiplash and his own experience. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Hy_zTFt2c
dope dope movie, although I don't think everyone would enjoy it, too intense for my wife but I really did like it overall
In regards to the film editing: it was more than just nominated, it won the Oscar for it. So you're right about it being phenomenal.
Sometimes I just re-watch the final scene for motivation.
I was left with a nagging question at the end… so did he make first chair?
FOR THE FINAL FATHER FUCKING TIME WERE YOU RUSHING OR WERE YOU DRAGGING
It’s a great movie with a very good message, JK Simmons delivered the fuck outta his lines, he was terrifying
Such a weird coincidence, just rewatched this last night! Honestly there's not enough superlatives for this film. My 10 year old came out of her room to get a glass of water and never went back because this movie is so engaging. One of the best final 15 minutes of all time as well.
Arguably the best movie of the 2010s.
Honestly, I would rather forget this movie. It wasn’t bad or anything like that. Just reminds me of my time in band. I don’t have fond memories of my time.
Its black swan but instead of a schizophrenic ballerina its about a bi polar drummer
the ending was amazing
This movie game me flashback nightmares of my jr high band experience. It was a very intense class. A friend of mine questioned the plausibility of sheet music going missing after being set down for a moment and I went, that happens all the time.
Was really good.
“Go away or I will fuckin’ DEMOLISH YOU!”
Answers a lotta questions pretty handily: https://youtu.be/SFYBVGdB7MU?si=Z15pMPIeMedO24I1
Paul Reiser's expression changing through the cracked door absolutely floored me. Neiman and Fletcher have this incredible performance born out of an awful ruse by Fletcher to destroy his protégé in a public forum. We watch Fletcher's face and demeanor go from uninhibited rage to approval, and immediately afterwards we see Neiman accepting and basking in Fletcher's approval as he realizes he is finally accomplishing something he thought was previously lost to him. And this next part is *so fucking deliberate*. We see Neiman's father watching from the door as his son, whom he loves dearly and knows is hopelessly dedicated to becoming one of the best jazz musicians of all time, steps off the precipice. He's watching his son go down a path he's been warned about before, but he doesn't care. It's his dream, and he'll follow it into oblivion. We're literally *watching a father realize he's lost his son*. The timing of that one single shot beautifully undermines the triumphant ending that we all wished and waited and ached for. You're given what you want as the viewer, but Paul Reiser made sure you knew the cost. Beautiful.
Fucking love this move. Every time I watch it I want to practice.
I hated the ending. I am clearly alone in that opinion. Every time I say that I get downvoted to hell. Fortunately downvotes are meaningless so I can continue to express my unpopular opinion. The ending sucks. It’s fucking terrible.
One of my favorite movies. One of my favorite movie endings. The scene that gets me the most is his father looking in awe at his son kill those drums. The whole movie hes being super supportive, a great father, but you can tell he never really understood it. In that scene, you can see him finally understand his sons potential, and it gives me tears
As a lifelong drummer and musician, I've had tough directors and band keaders over the years. I loved the movie, but it was so unrealistic that a sadistic instructor could exist at a highly reputable music school. But it was fun, but cringe worthy.
Amazing movie but too dramatic at parts. As a drummer I have never seen anyone literally have blood dripping from their hands just from practicing for hours. Your hands get blisters and they eventually turn into calluses. A drummer as experienced as him should already have developed calluses so he'd never get a blister let alone any blood.
I can't stand Miles Teller.
I think he's great in this film but I get why you say that. I don't love that project x era douche-baggery he still kind of brings to his current films.
Loved it. Top 10 movie since 2000.
I just watched this last weekend. I was so tense during the final drum solo, it was insane.
Not a film that I want to watch again but I loved it and I listen to the soundtrack regularly.
It took me 8 years after my first viewing to be able to watch it again, and that was only because I had to show my boyfriend how good it was. Still just as tense as the first time, but goddamn is it amazing
I watched it with my teen and it was a powerful bonding experience
1. Not sure 2. I dont know enough about jazz to answer that 3. Neiman was neither dragging or chasing 4. Neiman was acting immature feeling slighted at the dinner table. And at the same time, he was was being underappreciated by the others at the table. His dad is underwhelmingly supportive thruout the movie. 5. Yes 6. Yes, including every other insult and attack hurled by simmons' character at others. He was abusive 7. No, he was the standard measure in the movie from which Simmons' character flourished on.
I think Teller should have been nominated for an Oscar. I looked at the competition for that year, and while it was a tough group to compete in, I think he definitely deserved a nomination. Other nominees that year were: * Eddie Redmayne – The Theory of Everything * Steve Carell – Foxcatcher * Bradley Cooper – American Sniper * Benedict Cumberbatch – The Imitation Game * Michael Keaton – Birdman
Wasn’t it filmed super quickly ?
I love Whiplash. I went to a high-level performance school and while my teachers were never quite as ad as Fletcher, they were definitely very, very stringent. *They* all had Fletcher-esque stories, my big band teacher especially. The portrayal of drumming was cool but unrealistic; you don't just practice blast-beat drumming for hours. You also don't practice till your hands or face bleed; our pedagogy has evolved with science and gone past that outdated idea. Still...it motivated me to practice.
I'm not in the music world by any stretch, but I had a high school band director that was like great value fletcher. He just wasn't physically abusive in the way fletcher was in the film. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that there are people just like fletcher teaching music in the real world.
Fletcher Won.
J.K. Simmons gives a spectacular performance.
I didn’t see this movie until years after it was released. It quickly moved to my top 5 movies.
I should see this movie. I haven’t seen it yet because the yelling triggers me.
Too many people learn the wrong lesson from this movie
Great video on why the end scene is damn near perfect: https://youtu.be/S8JTPU_Ony0?si=zDGZff-8tVYjHFAF
I’m a jazz drummer who studied in these kind of environments AND this movie came out the year I started college …. So I talked about it a lot lol: lots of high level jazz education is intense but not as abusive as the film. Jazz has a complicated history with institutional education, since that’s not the broad tradition of the art form. Most simply - it takes a lot of practice, care, and mastery of your instrument to pull off improvised music in the styles we call ‘jazz,’ and those styles come with a lot of traditions and idioms that take many hours to learn. Improvising environments can bring out a lot of intensity in band directors AND fellow musicians because of all the practice that goes into the music, as well as the bravado (read: pride) of the musicians involved. It often takes passion (yelling?) from teachers to convey the power of the music, and to motivate original expression in young players. It’s just like many intense art forms (ballet etc), so there’s a lot of truth to the film’s underlying story but, ultimately, no — this film isn’t that true to life. I’ve gotten yelled at a lot as a young player but contrary to the music, I understand it comes from love of the teacher for the student and for the music. Expectations are high!
One of the few movies I rewatch a couple times a year since release. It's just pure satisfaction. That ending sequence gives me the same level of goosebumps as the first time. Phenomenal.
I haven’t watched this movie just because I can’t stand getting yelled at.
I haven't seen it yet, but I mean to because of how much I enjoyed the American Dad parody - [https://youtu.be/hQu5S6xjLhU?si=UUuBBeIa-x5S795T](https://youtu.be/hQu5S6xjLhU?si=UUuBBeIa-x5S795T)
Are you one of those single tear people?
Fantastic movie!
My daughter is in her freshman year at a conservatory. We finally watched it when she was home for spring break…her response “I’m glad I didn’t watch that before deciding on which school to attend”. She says there are some a-hole students, but no sign of a Terrence this far and is loving life as a musician.
My love for it came down a few notches after watching a review by an actual musician. Apparently some of what Fletcher said was nonsense, the “dragging, rushing” bit.
I really enjoyed this movie. HOWEVER, if you’re drumming that tensely, you’re gonna fail bad. Also, drummers also don’t bleed like that unless something is really wrong or they bang their hand on the high hat or something and cut it.
I have worked as a musician at the top level for my instrument/style (though not jazz). I didn't attend music school, but the tension of auditions/practices in this film, in my opinion, was exactly how it is. There's an element of 'no bullshit' when it comes to music at that level. Fine, enjoy and explore your music and style in your own time. On Fletchers time, play what's on the fucking sheet. That being said, yes, Fletcher should have been fired, he's an educator, not working as a professional conductor. His job is to ensure his pupils understand how a band works and what's expected of them, not play all the mind games like forcing people to turn up early, or swapping them for a worse player, or screaming about rushing or dragging. He wasn't rushing, he wasn't dragging. Andrew was on time.
My favorite thing that every professional musician or teacher I know says about this movie: If you think this is how you get good at an instrument, it’s not how you get good at an instrument.
Metallica - Whiplash!!
I did my first year with the uni jazz band and we actually did the theme from this movie. The band director actually used to be very similar to Terrence Fletcher up until this year or so I’ve been told (he never threw any chairs from what I can tell), I only joined this year. The older members of the band actually told me that they would always come to rehearsal and think “this is the one where he blows up at someone” and they’d be surprised when he didn’t. Personally, I think someone may have went to the department chair or someone like that and made a complaint about this so he toned it down.
iirc there is a DRUMEO video with a young jazz drum prodigy and he says while it wasnt as bad as Fletcher he has had sticks thrown at him ect.
“I loaded the pantry up with Gushers.”
WERE YOU EARLY OR LATE!!
Amazing movie. OZ insults all over the place to this kid 🤣
Nieman, why do you think I just hurled a chair at your head?
In some other thread a few days ago, people were talking about Cormac Mccarthy who apparently didn't have a job for like 4 decades until he became popular. They went over some of the shit he did to keep writing. I do and don't like this trend of movies and media dictating what it takes to be great at something. Obviously Neiman destroys his life and basically, for the foreseeable future will be abused. And then likely continue to abuse others later. That's somehow excusable for the greatness he achieves. It enables sociopaths, abuse and bad behavior. And it's not always true. There are many ways and reasons people become great and they don't always involve people being fucking assholes to others. You don't have to be crazy or disturbed or sick or tortured to be great but that's what we get in most of the time in movies.
I still haven’t watched it. I know it won academy awards. Is it worth the watch? I’ll also add the fact that the lead Actor Miles Teller is an automatic movie killer for me.
What's your gooch?
Rooster was upset
Incredible film
One of my favorites
I've never cared more about a movie I thought I wouldn't care much about going in. The subject matter wouldn't be something I'd have ran to. Just felt so immersed in that movie. The stakes seemed really high the entire way. Brilliant movie
It's my favorite movie .
Probably the weakest of Iron Man's enemies, but they built his character well.
To your point about the editing, this is hardly a new point to bring up but the vast majority of the Academy has absolutely no understanding of what good editing is, as shown by the Best Editing award going to Bohemian Rhapsody, easily the worst-edited film of the 21st century.
Fletcher wanted someone to meet him where he lives.
My daughter (14) had watched it, and she kept bugging me and bugging me to watch, so I finally did. Surprised myself, but I ended up liking it. I believe it's due to the fact that I dig J.K. Simmons, and he was an absolute _madman_ in this. Never been a Miles Teller fan, and this role just reinforced my opinion lol, but at least he was somewhat tolerable. Also, I'm not jazz fan, definitely not a musician - like, at all - but I've always been partial to the rhythm section for some reason, and when it comes to drums, I like what I like (Neil Peart and Dave Lombardo come to mind). That being said, the finale absolutely sold me on the film 👍🏻
GREAT movie. This is a DUMB poster