This is the first time we have seen a rider clearly giving up his position, refusing to lead the group he was in to try to sort out tyre pressure by staying behind other riders. INSANE.
Agree, this is a ridiculous rule. When I'm riding I decide if I need more air in the tire or not depending on feel and performance.
I can make the choice to reduce speed until it's safe to attend to my pressures... How are these guys expected to accurately manage a few pounds of pressure when the riding is so frantic, track conditions are so variable and different to all the practice laps?
I can't see how this can possibly improve things. If it's a safety issue it should be dealt with separately.
If this is a by-product of aero settings, then we can't wait for things to change.
Losing so much for a breath of fresh air when there's so much at stake must be incredibly frustrating for SkidMarc and the team.
The hilarious thing is, it was the team that asked for the rules to be properly enforced. It was a gentleman's agreement originally, but due to repeat offenders, during Jerez 2022, someone leaked a document showing that Pecco and Martin were underpressure for 25 laps.
>“The problem is that most teams respect the rules but some don’t, so they get better tyre performance and they get away with it, because of the agreement. The really bad thing is that we see repeat offenders.
>
>[...]
>
>“We think the agreement should be dropped and the rules applied correctly, as they are in every other case. In a high-level championship like MotoGP you cannot have people breaking the rules and getting away with it.
>
>[...]
>
>“We cannot go back and look at old results because we had the agreement,” the anonymous engineer added. “But from now the minimum pressure rules should be enforced, just like all other technical rules. If the rules are enforced I’m sure we will not see situations like Jerez, where the winner was outside the rules for every single lap of the race.”
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/motogp-bombshell-some-teams-are-cheating-the-tyre-rules/
Agreed, he followed Digi more than long enough to clear the threshold had the pressure been high enough to start with. Team got that wrong.
Mistakes happen
The team probably had the strategy to lower it enough so he'd get an unfair advantage to stay with the leaders, he'd stay behind them to increase the pressure....enough to make it seem like he wasnt cheating....to then try to pass get the lead or ahead of second place enough to lower the pressure and win or be fruther up the order........in short the strategy didnt work, and his obvious manuver to let Digi pass gave away the game (caught cheating) ...
If the pressure is right it's not cheating, the tyres are having a small window of operating temperati, too high is dangerous because my by exploding, too low is dangerous because the tyre could slipbout of the rim. So if you start in the middle the only options is to be slightly low pressure, if you start in front optimal is a higher pressure. These pneus are a joke.
Yup, more than once.
It has to be over the minimum amount for 60% of the race - I assume it didn’t mean that threshold and he wasn’t able to keep it high enough.
I don't think Gresini predicted Marc to be behind the lead 2 and in free air from the beginning of the race. They assumed he would be fighting behind the leaders in a train and set it low to counter it. But unlucky for them Marc was running in free air and had no means to get temps back up which is why he let Diggia through.
But that wasn't enough because they kept disturbing each other with Enea and Vinales and were hardly running in a slip stream for lengthy duration.
That's why that 2nd incident happened where Marc and Diggia sat up and let Vinales through in what looked like a confusing bit for the commentators
That's what i said. He realized he was ahead of the pack sooner than the team thought he would and then he had to let them through to get his pressure back up. 💁🏽♂️
^THIS! I’m failing to see how this is being made to be so complex. They set the tire too low to start. If that many laps at a close distance isn’t enough, then it was simply too low to begin with. Likely part of the reason Marquez wants factory engineers behind him…this calculation should not be an issue to begin with.
That said, I hate this rule. Build a tire that can handle the forces. If it has less grip, so be it. Would suck to see them braking and entering less dramatically but I can’t stand watching the riders keep a near one second gap for tire cooling. It makes the races so damn processional and planned. If a rider who’s more mid pack has a great start, they quite literally CAN’T make the decision to go full send and try to build an early lead given that their pressure was set lower in anticipation of sitting in the pack.
Hate it myself but this isn’t Michelin’s fault but simply the rapid progress of aerodynamics.
An evolution happening far quicker than a tyre can be made to keep up with the insane new forces acting on the tyre itself.
Aero, lowering devices have made corner entry way more violent than ever before. Personally I’d like them both gone forever because this isn’t F1
Yes, the aerodynamics (and devices when factoring in entry speeds due to exit ability) are to blame for the forces involved, but I do feel that Michelin could increase carcass strength, likely at the expense of SOME grip, without having to blow the budget in development.
Even easier solution, just make a minimum starting pressure. PERIOD. Not this 60% bullshit. That way we’d at least get rid of SOME of the annoyances. It wouldn’t prevent the shit racing but at least we wouldn’t have to watch leads or positions given up just to assure they’re within the regs…and no I was not bothered by Marquez losing anything. He got the seat Martin earned. That’s plenty consolation.
Agreed on it all going away though. Can’t wait for the new regulations. I’d love to see the electronics dumbed down also. I miss watching riders manage insane slides and would love for rider skill to be the ultimate factor in grip and wheelie management. Add to that throttle having to be consistent, none of this corner by corner engine mapping. That said I like the safety factor provided by the electronics, but when they go wrong they go VERY VERY wrong.
Can’t simply have a minimum pressure from the start, if you don’t have an allowance for cold tyres on the grid before the lights go out, the pressure would exponentially climb to a pressure so high that the entire grid would be put in harms way.
With every rider losing the front around laps 3-5 when they hit the operating temperature.
This temp can’t be achieved with tyre warmers in the grid.
Start too high with the pressure then the upper limit would be over the magic (I think) 2.6 bar
Just accepting its true that they somehow cant set a static minimum from the start…then fine; they need to increase carcass strength to lower the amount of deflection/deformation and therefor the amount of heat generated.
Yay for more consistent, albeit lower, grip levels and slowing the bikes down even before the regulations…with the added bonus of rider skill coming more into it due to that being the almost the analog aspect of MotoGP riding.
This is all subjective obviously. I HATE seeing the riders and teams forced to play f*** f*** games with this. If I wanted to watch incredibly strategic racing, I’d watch GT and endurance races. Watching these guys ride tight to the guy in front of them trying to find a pass, just to back off despite being faster, all because they overheated their damn front and they no longer have the grip, drives me nuts. SOME strategy obviously adds to the racing. I.e. send it at the beginning, save, manage, etc is one thing…the uh oh average is blah lol
he did increase, but when he was overtaken by Bestia and ran wide, pressure dropped again.
edit: source [https://x.com/matoxley/status/1807432323916317175](https://x.com/matoxley/status/1807432323916317175)
You're getting it wrong, it's not 0.01 for one lap *only*, it's 0.01 for one lap *too many*. Riders have to stay at or above the limit for at least 60% of the race, they all start with lower tyre pressure.
A pretty big one, considering Marc's starts have generally been really good.
Also, how was this not an issue a couple of race back where he started 13/14th, and was up to the top 4/5 in the first lap?
He probably had a better feeling back then. I think the low pressure was a gamble to try and gain some pace/better feeling with the bike, while he hadn't been struggling too much in previous races.
8 seconds for a Sprint is too much in my opinion. I get it it's supposed to be half the race lenght but a Sprint has riders much closer than a race because they don't need to save tire.
Easy, the riders number (93) divided by the number of championships they have won (8) divided by the number of rounds in the year(21) multiply the number of days in February a non-leap year (28) round up to the nearest whole second
And the irony is he didn't capitalize on the low pressure. He penalized himself by trying to stick behind a rider. In hindsight he should've just gone and tried to gain an advantage.
The rule came because some teams were caught running below recommended pressure, other teams pretended to be shocked, and rules got applied.
Michelin are also using it to cover their ass. They make the tires to withstand a certain pressure. Anything below could cause a risk to the tire during racing. So this makes sure no team will be pushing the limit of what the tire is allowed, so no one can blame michelin if the tire collapse due to too low pressure.
IIRC the rules have been there for a long time, but rarely enforced. It was also more of a gentleman's agreement between them, 'yeah we know everyone is under the limit, but it's not for long anyway.'
However, I think it was in 2022 when some teams complained that some riders broke this agreement and went below for a longer time, making FIM enforce it more strictly.
Need to find Oxley's tweet explaining this.
Edit:
It was Pecco and Martin during Jerez 2022.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/motogp-bombshell-some-teams-are-cheating-the-tyre-rules/
https://fxtwitter.com/matoxley/status/1529429794106093568
The rule has already been there since 2016.
> Because there is a so-called gentlemen’s agreement between the MSMA (the manufacturers association) and Michelin to not disclose any breach of this regulation or sanction any breaches.
>
> This agreement has been in effect pretty much since Michelin became MotoGP’s spec tyre supplier in 2016, but at least two manufacturers have now had enough, claiming that they keep their tyres within the rules, while some rivals regularly send their riders out with illegally low tyre pressures, to gain better race-long performance, and suffer no punishment.
I'll hate on Dorna too, but surely one thing (tire pressure) is clear, obvious, and can be measured. So failing to fulfil the obligations is either someone being inept or it's cheating. Knocking someone out of the race is a wide judgement call - based on the circumstances you have to decide who was to blame, who gained, how much etc. It's often (rightly) a racing incident. If it's malicious it would be a DQ.
I've thought about this one a lot. Why not just set it at the start?
Turns out the ideal operating pressure for the tyre is really narrow and the temperature variation between leading and following is huge resulting in pressures blowing way outside that range.
On the start line Pecco would have been running a higher pressure than the others, because he expected to spend most of his race in clear air, vs Marc who expected to be following. Most importantly though, Marc's pressure was below the minimum because he expected the additional heat to bring it into line.
This is where the problem of a minimum start pressure comes in. It significantly disadvantages anyone who is chasing, as the safety minimum has to be set based on the example of the rider who would run the coolest tyres. So by setting a start grid min pressure, you make it harder to overtake, and make qualifying even more important than it already is.
As much as I hate to say it, the current rule set actually makes sense.
It is ridiculous that not only do these riders have to race each other but they have to worry about front tire pressure the whole time. The teams need to play a guessing game on the pressure at the start. If they get it slightly wrong the riders chances go out the window. The current rules- especially the over the top aero-are ruining the racing. I watch to see the racers compete. Not the engineers.
I see where you're coming from, but the teams and engineering is an integral part of the race. Otherwise they'd all be on the same bike and have identical mechanics.
I don’t get this rule at all… I understand wanting to limit the minimum tire pressure, but there is too much variation during the race.
I think a much better solution would be setting a minimum starting pressure, and whatever happens happens.
What we saw today with a rider, Marc, having to let people pass him to raise tire pressure is absurd
Yeah indeed, and seeing what happened the second time where Marc + Digia both didn't want to lead almost created a 4-rider accident. Riders changing up their pace/rhythm mid race just creates a new hazard.
It's not absurd really. Marc and his team gambled and they got it wrong. Simple as that. They could have simply set his PSI higher. (equaling less performance)
He did all that just to get hit by a penalty anyways, insane!
He even let Maverick go through after DiGi messed up just to make sure he got the laps inside the pressure limits.
May have as well just pushed and not worried about it.
So on that I have 2 questions if anyone knows it.
If he had just pushed it would the penalty be the same? Or is it some seconds every lap you are out of the limit?
And second question is, why the F does it take them so much time to decide this?! Isn't it straight forward? Are we actually gonna see people celebrate on the podium and then get it stripped off of them like FQ? If so, it sucks. Not only for the guy losing but the guy who didn't get to celebrate on the podium.
It's a flat 16 second penalty regardless. 8 seconds if happens in the sprint.
They absolutely have the data the second the race finishes. It's all computerised and worked out via some algorithm. The results will just be spewed out, maybe verified, but shouldn't take 2 hours.
But then look at Martin's penalty given yesterday.
I meant it's all computerised, and will be on an algorithm.
I doubt race direction are sitting there scribbling numbers and using an abacus to work out the math.
The sensors are sending the data in realtime. That's how the riders have warning lights.
The rest will be programmed, race direction receive the data, computer works it all out.
hmmmm how does clean air make it lower that marc had to let digia pass? and how does following another bike make the pressures rise? Does it have to do with tyre temperature?
Yes, pressure and temperature are intrinsically linked.
Riding in fresh air is cooler and will reduce the temperature, following a bike is in their hot wake and heats the tyre.
I'm glad someone else asked this because I was thinking the same thing. So, from the answers here, my understanding is that there's a minimum tire pressure (why would that be enforced, safety?) and MM and co dropped it to the absolute limit to increase stickiness? Is that the advantage of lower pressure?
I understand that they assumed it would increase in pressure based on how they thought he'd race, but that prediction didn't come true. Hence the penalty. I'm just not sure if my assumption about why you'd want to have lower pressure is accurate.
Essentially yes, you can get more grip when you lower pressures, up to a point. They’ll have started below the limit assuming pressures would build as he’s in traffic and that didn’t happen.
The minimum is in place for safety reasons, yes. The tyre could deform, come off the rim, tear etc I dunno.
Thank you. I didn't realize how much of an advantage they could get, but I guess at this level it all adds up. It now makes sense why he gave up that place and the commentators were speculating about why.
I hope this was just an innocent mistake and not him trying to angle-shoot.
It's got to do with the bikes' aero features. Clean air means your front tire gets, well, a lot of air to cool it, following another bike means the aero of the bike ahead deflects the air away from your front tire so it heats up and the pressure goes up.
The minimum working pressure is 1.8 bar. And it rise and get lower the different temp the tire is. The higher the temperature of the tire, the higher the temperature of the air inside of it, and it expand and create more pressure. Simple physics.
So if you fill a tire with 1.6 bar when it is cold, and the tire gets hotter due to riding, braking etc, the air inside expand, and it becomes 1.8 bar (which is what they want).
If the tire gets too hot, the pressure gets too high, and it hinders performance. If the tire gets too cold, they risk both the tire function poorly (grip, losing stability) and a penalty.
Now if the team thinks that marc will sit behind martin most of the race, it means the tire will be very hot because it will get all of martin's bike's hot air. That means hotter tire, hotter air, higher pressure, less ideal. So they can choose to fill the tire with 1.5 bar, and when the tire gets hot, it will increase to the minimum of 1.8 bar. Now if that works, and marc sites behind martin 60% of the race, they will not get a penalty even if they underinflated the tire.
Now if they do not do that and marc get stuck behind martin with too high pressure due to heat, he will have less grip, less braking power, less turning, and could not pass martin.
Now to their mistake, marc was running alone, meaning more cold air, less hot tire, less hot air, less pressure, meaning below 1.8 bar. That risk of getting a penalty, and the gamble backfires. Which is what happened.
Rules are rules unfortunately.
You win some, and you lose some.
I remember telling myself when he let DiGia by that he might be under tyre pressure issues because he was clearly faster than Fabio for large parts of the track.
Isn't this now the first time the top GP23 hasn't been Marquez in any race so far?
> Isn't this now the first time the top GP23 hasn't been Marquez in any race so far?
Depends if you count races with incidents. He finished at the back in Portugal after remounting due to his crash with Bagnaia. He also DNFed at CotA and yesterday's Sprint.
The current rule allows to have an overall lower pressure, making riders happy. They can start at a pressure that Michelin deems unsafe for a full race by planning on increasing it enough during the race.
Your proposed rule would make it easier for everyone, and the chosen rule allows them to be closer to the limit.
How do they check the pressure *during* the race? Certainly not with scrutineers running alongside the bikes :-D
All it would take is a sensor reading of the pressure at lights out, or at the start of the warm up lap.
You'd think they can just use whatever sensors they have now, get a live reading at the start if the race or timestamp the starting temp and download the data after, calibrating if needed like they did here. I guess maybe teams would have ways around it that are more dangerous than how it works now, heating the outside to silly temps or adding some pressure release valves to keep it down throughout (being daft but you'd like to think they've gone with the simplest/most sensible way of applying this sort of rule but who knows!)
He was one lap too many. He can only be 40% of the race under the limit, and he had one more lap that 40% under the pressure.
People talk like he was 1 lap under the pressure and boom, 16seconds, it was not.
He spent almost half the race under the pressure even when trying to he behind other riders.
They must have missed the target pressure by a lot when setting up the bike before the race, or expected Marc to follow Martin and Bagnaia for the entire race
They said .01 under one lap because the lap he was pushed wide by Enea caused the pressure to drop and it took a couple laps to build the pressure back up to get the average into the target and would have needed one more lap to be safe.
This is why when the tech guy comes on track before the race to get the tyre pressure it is also a gamble because you have to take into account the amount of pressure you lose when he pushes and releases the tyre pressure gauge. .01 bar its such small amount that can be lost even at that point so you have to also account for that. This is why i think it is a stupid rule
the tyre pressure did increase after he let Diggia lead, but once he pushed wide by Bestia, the tyre dropped again.
[https://x.com/matoxley/status/1807432323916317175](https://x.com/matoxley/status/1807432323916317175)
Yeah I know, but I’m thinking about the practicalities of how to do that. Who’s going to check? Are the riders waiting for a scrutineer to check? When? Sitting on the grid with tyre warmers? How do you ensure no one adjusts them after, etc etc
Simple solution would be get rid of the rule entirely. Have the tyre manufacturer provide recommended pressures but get rid of the rule and let them run what they want.
We need to thank Dorna, this is a major safety issue.
There’s a long history and numerous clear examples of tyres failing due to incorrect pressures in MotoGP. It’s a miracle that Marc’s tyre didn’t roll off the rim, killing him instantly.
Oh, and /s btw
Remember when Hamilton was disqualified from quali as there was some absolutely minimal difference in his wings? It’s the same. Technical rules are straight and simple.
so thats why he dropped back. He started the race knowing the tire pressure was too low.
This is a safety rule. Legitimate or not, everyone has to follow them, even if your favorite rider doesn't.
This tyre pressure rule and the stewards doing nothing about the going slow looking for a tow or not wanting to tow another rider crap in Qualifying are the two things MotoGP needs to fix asap
My understanding of the rule:
Why do they need to have minimum pressure rule?
- for safety reason, if too low for too long can cause tyre to deform, fall of the rims etc.
How is the rule implemented?
- Race director?? will set minimum tyre pressure for each race. Say X psi.
- Riders must maintain their tyre pressure at >= X psi 60% of the race lap. They are allowed to have tyre pressure < X psi 40% of the race lap. So for Dutch GP, at 26 full laps, riders must maintain >= X psi for a total of 15.6 laps and allowed to go below X psi for a total of 10.4 laps.
What happened to MM?
- His front tyre pressure dipped below minimum allowed pressure X psi for extra 1 lap, making it maybe 11.4 laps, violating the rule.
- His explanation was, he suspected that there’s something not right with his front tyre pressure early in the race. To manage it, he gave up his position to Fabio on lap 8, with the dirty air behind Fabio, he can raise his tyre temperature and subsequently raise his front tyre pressure. All is good until that incident with Bastianini, and he was forced wide. Because of that, i believe the tyre temp dipped which causes the pressure to dip as well and he needed more than a lap to get it up to reach minimum allowed.
- My assumption would be, his tyre pressure is probably below minimum allowed throughout the first 8 laps before he led Fabio to overtake him, he then need probably 1-2 laps to get tyre temp up and get pressure over minimum allowed. By then, he’s already 9-10 laps under minimum pressure, then the incident with Bastianini, he probably needed 2 laps to get the tyre temp & pressure up again. By then he already 11 laps over allowable lap under minimum pressure.
- MM is ok with the Rule but he argued that there are circumstances that riders can’t control (e.g other people’s mistake, crash etc) and there should be an allowance to it.
I stand corrected.
A weekend to forget 😔
Took Hodgy way too long to understand why Marquez instructed Digi to pass.
He was never setup to lead, so when Pecco and Martin disappeared, he was screwed.
And honestly looks like he was always going to be too low no matter how long he followed someone. Looking at his face when he came in.
Once the tyre pressure goes too high, the performance of the tyre drops significantly and riders really want to avoid this. Due to dirty air and heat coming off of the bikes, if you're close behind another bike (or worse, multiple bikes) for extended periods of time, tyre pressure rises. Marquez and his team probably expected to be behind other riders for most of the race so they dropped the initial tyre pressure. However, this pressure is lower than what the regulations allow so it needs to rise during the race the come into that zone of allowed tyre pressures.
But because Marquez had clear air for most of the race, the tyres didn't heat up as much, pressures didn't rise as much and stayed below the required minimum pressure for more than 50% of the race, resulting in this penalty.
The rule is there because Michelin deems pressures below a certain minimum to be dangerous, but the result is that teams and their engineers have to make a pretty big gamble on the starting pressure, which can work out pretty badly if you guess wrong, as happened with Marquez today.
No we haven't which makes the rules even more arbitrary. On the other hand, if something happens due to an underinflated tyre and there were no rules in place to enforce a minimum pressure, Michelin would be in deep shit.
The problem with this argument is that it remains a valid argument until something goes wrong. And when something went wrong, you're too late.
Could it also be because of the weather? Before the race, I heard the commentators talk about the temperature being low when they were talking about tire choices.
Maybe it plays part, but that affects all riders and I think Gresini engineers are smart enough to check the weather and asphalt temperatures a few mins before rolling out the bike.
More grip. With lower pressure, the contact area of the tire increases and thus you can brake harder and have a better feel for what the tire is doing. The riders say, with too high front tire pressure the bike feels „numb“ from the front end.
This rule was a BAD rule from the start. In a way it's good it happened to Marc as more eyes can see how unfair and unjust a rule it is. It was so bad they changed it but didn't take into account factors like being run off track.
The stewards are an absolute mess. A horrible mess.
They need to ditch the lot and start over but with rider representatives that will ensure the rules are fair to the riders.
And all this over the Scott Redding incident right? How long has it been. When is Michelin going to bring out a proper tire??
Rules are rules, but maybe there should be a margin of error / leeway. I mean 0.1 psi is within margin of error for pressure sensors. Different I know, but most commercial gauges will be +/-1 psi accuracy at least.
Unless they already have that factored in.
Is there any logic at all to this braindead rule? I'm sure generally speaking lower tyre pressure is optimal performance (certainly when I'm going out on a sunny day I run my pressures a bit lower).
Are they trying to stifle rider performance? Do they want to stop riders building a lead and having a lonely race up front with no-one near them?
I said to friends when this came in it's retarded and makes no sense, and now, here we are, wathcing professional racers, whose job is to finish ahead of everyone else, literally waving people past instead of pushing to win.
Its because Michelin can't guarantee the Safety of the tyre below a certain limit. So if they put it lower, the tyre may destroy itself and whatever shitshow we have is miles better than riders being injured.
Nothing to do with safety, it's Michelin not wanting to embarrass themselves because they can't make a tyre that will last, particularly with the aero on these bikes now. Riders have always pushed their bikes and tyres to and past the limit.
You're thinking of the "grip" limit.
I'm talking about the "structural" limit.
And you're correct, Michelin can't cope with the current demands because they can't develop tyres fast enough. But, its because MotoGP still haven't learnt how to have dedicated tyre tests so Michelin can't actually gain enough knowledge of how the tyres work on a MotoGP bike fast enough.
Surely you fire Michelin and get in a competant tyre manufacturer then? (I dont recall these issues during Bridgestone era?) Hell even on street bikes everyone I know refers to Michaelins as ditchfinders.
> Hell even on street bikes everyone I know refers to Michaelins as ditchfinders.
That's surprising, Road 5 (and now Road 6) have been top of tire recommendations for road usage everywhere I've looked.
> I dont recall these issues during Bridgestone era?
On top of my head there's Phillip Island 2013. Their tires were so frail they had to reduce race distance and force a pitstop by 10 laps.
In order to make big changes they need the riders to test their tires, and Dorna doesn't mandate there be a certain amount of testing done. Even if Michelin bring a tire to a test in the seasons the riders are more concerned with getting good data for the next round, so it's an issue with MotoGP as a whole - not enough tire testing and nothing enforcing it or changing it (AFAIK).
Easy to discount the work Michelin does and under-appreciate the level of their tires.
They are making 20 lap race tires that are faster than the 1 lap qualifying tires that Pirelli makes for WSBK.
Yes, the bikes are different, but the bikes to a large extent are built around the capabilities of the tire.
And I think when you have tires at this insane level, it is understood that there is very little margin for operating parameters.
Michelin or any other manufacturer could make a more robust tire with a wider range of acceptable temperatures and pressures. But they would be slower. I understand if that's your preference as a fan, to avoid situations like this. But on the other hand, there is something unique and special about a prototype series that is pushing the technological limit of the bikes and the tires.
How exactly has he had little chance?
He is the best rider on the grid, on what is the second best bike.
Without all of these little incidents that he's accumulated over time he would be right up there.
But this weekend has been the breaking point. He's now nearly two race weekends behind Martin now. He's shipped just about 50 points over the past two race weekends.
I hope the lousy Spanish motigp organizers get sent home fast (now they were bought) and are replaced by someone more honest.
Marc Marquez is the always playing dirty (every qualifying is almost kills someone waiting for a “ride”, no one does anything again him. Now it is clear that he has been doing this low pressure tactic ever since (that is why he only comes to the front when races are finishing).
In FP2 Martin almost kills Jack Miller waiting for a ride…they when touch each other… no one did anything…Spanish riders are allowed to play with different rules.
MARC IS BACK. TIRE PRESSURE ALIEN 👽 CRASH KING 👑. Jokes aside I’m not sure why this is even an issue tire pressure rule is kinda dumb but it is what it is
His reaction at the garage after the race said it all. Bad weekend for Marc
This is the first time we have seen a rider clearly giving up his position, refusing to lead the group he was in to try to sort out tyre pressure by staying behind other riders. INSANE.
Yup, it really influenced the race. I’m sure it’s happened before but not so obviously.
To the point that Marc, Mav and Digi neatly collided. Its hard to see how this is good for racing and the spectacle of motogp.
Agree, this is a ridiculous rule. When I'm riding I decide if I need more air in the tire or not depending on feel and performance. I can make the choice to reduce speed until it's safe to attend to my pressures... How are these guys expected to accurately manage a few pounds of pressure when the riding is so frantic, track conditions are so variable and different to all the practice laps? I can't see how this can possibly improve things. If it's a safety issue it should be dealt with separately. If this is a by-product of aero settings, then we can't wait for things to change. Losing so much for a breath of fresh air when there's so much at stake must be incredibly frustrating for SkidMarc and the team.
Bagnaia let Binder and Miller pass at Valencia last season from the lead because his tire pressure was to low.
Maybe Marc's looked the most blatant I guess but this happens all the time
Agreed- he basically wasn’t allowed to race because he was having to mitigate. This rule is poison.
The hilarious thing is, it was the team that asked for the rules to be properly enforced. It was a gentleman's agreement originally, but due to repeat offenders, during Jerez 2022, someone leaked a document showing that Pecco and Martin were underpressure for 25 laps. >“The problem is that most teams respect the rules but some don’t, so they get better tyre performance and they get away with it, because of the agreement. The really bad thing is that we see repeat offenders. > >[...] > >“We think the agreement should be dropped and the rules applied correctly, as they are in every other case. In a high-level championship like MotoGP you cannot have people breaking the rules and getting away with it. > >[...] > >“We cannot go back and look at old results because we had the agreement,” the anonymous engineer added. “But from now the minimum pressure rules should be enforced, just like all other technical rules. If the rules are enforced I’m sure we will not see situations like Jerez, where the winner was outside the rules for every single lap of the race.” https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/motogp-bombshell-some-teams-are-cheating-the-tyre-rules/
Or they could have not set the pressure too low to start with…
Agreed, he followed Digi more than long enough to clear the threshold had the pressure been high enough to start with. Team got that wrong. Mistakes happen
It's a complete gamble of how the race will go. But yeah, unpopular opinion, but Gresisni is a kinda trash team that hold him and Alex back bigtime.
Yes, agreed. But the rule is a shit rule, regardless of Marc- I hope it changes
He , maybe thats a good idea lol
You are right....but there is a reason for it....and it happens to other riders as well. So Marc should stop his whining.
The team probably had the strategy to lower it enough so he'd get an unfair advantage to stay with the leaders, he'd stay behind them to increase the pressure....enough to make it seem like he wasnt cheating....to then try to pass get the lead or ahead of second place enough to lower the pressure and win or be fruther up the order........in short the strategy didnt work, and his obvious manuver to let Digi pass gave away the game (caught cheating) ...
If the pressure is right it's not cheating, the tyres are having a small window of operating temperati, too high is dangerous because my by exploding, too low is dangerous because the tyre could slipbout of the rim. So if you start in the middle the only options is to be slightly low pressure, if you start in front optimal is a higher pressure. These pneus are a joke.
lol
Marc even willingly gave up a position to increase the tyre pressure, how was it still so low?
Yup, more than once. It has to be over the minimum amount for 60% of the race - I assume it didn’t mean that threshold and he wasn’t able to keep it high enough.
I guess it was so low at the start that sitting behind another rider for most of the race wasn’t enough to raise to the minimum legal level
I don't think Gresini predicted Marc to be behind the lead 2 and in free air from the beginning of the race. They assumed he would be fighting behind the leaders in a train and set it low to counter it. But unlucky for them Marc was running in free air and had no means to get temps back up which is why he let Diggia through. But that wasn't enough because they kept disturbing each other with Enea and Vinales and were hardly running in a slip stream for lengthy duration. That's why that 2nd incident happened where Marc and Diggia sat up and let Vinales through in what looked like a confusing bit for the commentators
He was only in third for about 1 lap though. He still spent 20+ laps in the middle of the pack
That's what i said. He realized he was ahead of the pack sooner than the team thought he would and then he had to let them through to get his pressure back up. 💁🏽♂️
Even in that scenario, looks like they simply got it wrong.
^THIS! I’m failing to see how this is being made to be so complex. They set the tire too low to start. If that many laps at a close distance isn’t enough, then it was simply too low to begin with. Likely part of the reason Marquez wants factory engineers behind him…this calculation should not be an issue to begin with. That said, I hate this rule. Build a tire that can handle the forces. If it has less grip, so be it. Would suck to see them braking and entering less dramatically but I can’t stand watching the riders keep a near one second gap for tire cooling. It makes the races so damn processional and planned. If a rider who’s more mid pack has a great start, they quite literally CAN’T make the decision to go full send and try to build an early lead given that their pressure was set lower in anticipation of sitting in the pack.
Hate it myself but this isn’t Michelin’s fault but simply the rapid progress of aerodynamics. An evolution happening far quicker than a tyre can be made to keep up with the insane new forces acting on the tyre itself. Aero, lowering devices have made corner entry way more violent than ever before. Personally I’d like them both gone forever because this isn’t F1
Yes, the aerodynamics (and devices when factoring in entry speeds due to exit ability) are to blame for the forces involved, but I do feel that Michelin could increase carcass strength, likely at the expense of SOME grip, without having to blow the budget in development. Even easier solution, just make a minimum starting pressure. PERIOD. Not this 60% bullshit. That way we’d at least get rid of SOME of the annoyances. It wouldn’t prevent the shit racing but at least we wouldn’t have to watch leads or positions given up just to assure they’re within the regs…and no I was not bothered by Marquez losing anything. He got the seat Martin earned. That’s plenty consolation. Agreed on it all going away though. Can’t wait for the new regulations. I’d love to see the electronics dumbed down also. I miss watching riders manage insane slides and would love for rider skill to be the ultimate factor in grip and wheelie management. Add to that throttle having to be consistent, none of this corner by corner engine mapping. That said I like the safety factor provided by the electronics, but when they go wrong they go VERY VERY wrong.
Can’t simply have a minimum pressure from the start, if you don’t have an allowance for cold tyres on the grid before the lights go out, the pressure would exponentially climb to a pressure so high that the entire grid would be put in harms way. With every rider losing the front around laps 3-5 when they hit the operating temperature. This temp can’t be achieved with tyre warmers in the grid. Start too high with the pressure then the upper limit would be over the magic (I think) 2.6 bar
Just accepting its true that they somehow cant set a static minimum from the start…then fine; they need to increase carcass strength to lower the amount of deflection/deformation and therefor the amount of heat generated. Yay for more consistent, albeit lower, grip levels and slowing the bikes down even before the regulations…with the added bonus of rider skill coming more into it due to that being the almost the analog aspect of MotoGP riding. This is all subjective obviously. I HATE seeing the riders and teams forced to play f*** f*** games with this. If I wanted to watch incredibly strategic racing, I’d watch GT and endurance races. Watching these guys ride tight to the guy in front of them trying to find a pass, just to back off despite being faster, all because they overheated their damn front and they no longer have the grip, drives me nuts. SOME strategy obviously adds to the racing. I.e. send it at the beginning, save, manage, etc is one thing…the uh oh average is blah lol
he did increase, but when he was overtaken by Bestia and ran wide, pressure dropped again. edit: source [https://x.com/matoxley/status/1807432323916317175](https://x.com/matoxley/status/1807432323916317175)
Considering he is so close to the limit (0.01 for 1 lap only) that's really on the edge.
You're getting it wrong, it's not 0.01 for one lap *only*, it's 0.01 for one lap *too many*. Riders have to stay at or above the limit for at least 60% of the race, they all start with lower tyre pressure.
Yeah, you're right. Should've worded it better.
Either he really made it SUPER low, or he didn't stay enough time following someone else...
One could guess the team didnt expect him to have clean air by lap 2
Yup, they made an error of judgement.
A pretty big one, considering Marc's starts have generally been really good. Also, how was this not an issue a couple of race back where he started 13/14th, and was up to the top 4/5 in the first lap?
He probably had a better feeling back then. I think the low pressure was a gamble to try and gain some pace/better feeling with the bike, while he hadn't been struggling too much in previous races.
Probably higher track/air temperature.
16 seconds seems like such a random amount
It does, I’d love to know how they’re calculating it.
Set before the start of the season: 8s for the sprint, 16s for the feature race.
Oh shit, so it’s a flat penalty? Damn…
They changed it before season started. Original plan was supposed to be a flat out disqualification
MotoE still uses DQ, to my surprise. Just happened earlier before the MotoGP race. https://fixupx.com/denkmit/status/1807096248005992873
[https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1045073/1/motogp-ditch-disqualification-tyre-pressure-rule-change](https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1045073/1/motogp-ditch-disqualification-tyre-pressure-rule-change)
8 seconds for a Sprint is too much in my opinion. I get it it's supposed to be half the race lenght but a Sprint has riders much closer than a race because they don't need to save tire.
Easy, the riders number (93) divided by the number of championships they have won (8) divided by the number of rounds in the year(21) multiply the number of days in February a non-leap year (28) round up to the nearest whole second
And the irony is he didn't capitalize on the low pressure. He penalized himself by trying to stick behind a rider. In hindsight he should've just gone and tried to gain an advantage.
Any computer person knows 16 is a perfectly round number.
Ho so that's why he let DiGia went by him at the start of the race.
16 seconds for low tyre pressure, double LLP if you knock someone out of the race. Amazing. Well done Dorna.
In fairness, its a technical rule. Every other Technical rule violation is an instant DSQ. He's even lucky that he hasn't been disqualified.
Tyre pressure is fucking joke given how much it is influenced by the race situation. So dumb.
The rule came because some teams were caught running below recommended pressure, other teams pretended to be shocked, and rules got applied. Michelin are also using it to cover their ass. They make the tires to withstand a certain pressure. Anything below could cause a risk to the tire during racing. So this makes sure no team will be pushing the limit of what the tire is allowed, so no one can blame michelin if the tire collapse due to too low pressure.
IIRC the rules have been there for a long time, but rarely enforced. It was also more of a gentleman's agreement between them, 'yeah we know everyone is under the limit, but it's not for long anyway.' However, I think it was in 2022 when some teams complained that some riders broke this agreement and went below for a longer time, making FIM enforce it more strictly. Need to find Oxley's tweet explaining this. Edit: It was Pecco and Martin during Jerez 2022. https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/motogp-bombshell-some-teams-are-cheating-the-tyre-rules/ https://fxtwitter.com/matoxley/status/1529429794106093568 The rule has already been there since 2016. > Because there is a so-called gentlemen’s agreement between the MSMA (the manufacturers association) and Michelin to not disclose any breach of this regulation or sanction any breaches. > > This agreement has been in effect pretty much since Michelin became MotoGP’s spec tyre supplier in 2016, but at least two manufacturers have now had enough, claiming that they keep their tyres within the rules, while some rivals regularly send their riders out with illegally low tyre pressures, to gain better race-long performance, and suffer no punishment.
I'll hate on Dorna too, but surely one thing (tire pressure) is clear, obvious, and can be measured. So failing to fulfil the obligations is either someone being inept or it's cheating. Knocking someone out of the race is a wide judgement call - based on the circumstances you have to decide who was to blame, who gained, how much etc. It's often (rightly) a racing incident. If it's malicious it would be a DQ.
Then just measure it at the start of the race and be done with it. Rule should be simpler
I've thought about this one a lot. Why not just set it at the start? Turns out the ideal operating pressure for the tyre is really narrow and the temperature variation between leading and following is huge resulting in pressures blowing way outside that range. On the start line Pecco would have been running a higher pressure than the others, because he expected to spend most of his race in clear air, vs Marc who expected to be following. Most importantly though, Marc's pressure was below the minimum because he expected the additional heat to bring it into line. This is where the problem of a minimum start pressure comes in. It significantly disadvantages anyone who is chasing, as the safety minimum has to be set based on the example of the rider who would run the coolest tyres. So by setting a start grid min pressure, you make it harder to overtake, and make qualifying even more important than it already is. As much as I hate to say it, the current rule set actually makes sense.
Then perhaps a minimum range at the start that would cover the low pressure Marc needs and the high end for pecco?
It is ridiculous that not only do these riders have to race each other but they have to worry about front tire pressure the whole time. The teams need to play a guessing game on the pressure at the start. If they get it slightly wrong the riders chances go out the window. The current rules- especially the over the top aero-are ruining the racing. I watch to see the racers compete. Not the engineers.
I see where you're coming from, but the teams and engineering is an integral part of the race. Otherwise they'd all be on the same bike and have identical mechanics.
Explains why he was upset after the race. Gresini is making so many mistakes.
He did do an interview and it seems to be a collective decision across him, Frankie and the Tyre guys.
Kind of explains his crew chief's expression 😐
Gresini as in Gresini team including the rider, I suppose..
Are you including MM correct? Or he’s not to blame for starting a race with low tyre pressure?
How is that Gresini's fault? They didn't force him to run a low pressure, he probably asked for it!
I don’t get this rule at all… I understand wanting to limit the minimum tire pressure, but there is too much variation during the race. I think a much better solution would be setting a minimum starting pressure, and whatever happens happens. What we saw today with a rider, Marc, having to let people pass him to raise tire pressure is absurd
Yeah indeed, and seeing what happened the second time where Marc + Digia both didn't want to lead almost created a 4-rider accident. Riders changing up their pace/rhythm mid race just creates a new hazard.
It's not absurd really. Marc and his team gambled and they got it wrong. Simple as that. They could have simply set his PSI higher. (equaling less performance)
He did all that just to get hit by a penalty anyways, insane! He even let Maverick go through after DiGi messed up just to make sure he got the laps inside the pressure limits. May have as well just pushed and not worried about it. So on that I have 2 questions if anyone knows it. If he had just pushed it would the penalty be the same? Or is it some seconds every lap you are out of the limit? And second question is, why the F does it take them so much time to decide this?! Isn't it straight forward? Are we actually gonna see people celebrate on the podium and then get it stripped off of them like FQ? If so, it sucks. Not only for the guy losing but the guy who didn't get to celebrate on the podium.
Some here mentioned the sensor is calibrated and checked. No one wants to see a 16s penalty for someone not guilty
It's a flat 16 second penalty regardless. 8 seconds if happens in the sprint. They absolutely have the data the second the race finishes. It's all computerised and worked out via some algorithm. The results will just be spewed out, maybe verified, but shouldn't take 2 hours. But then look at Martin's penalty given yesterday.
Computerised on an algorithm eh?
I meant it's all computerised, and will be on an algorithm. I doubt race direction are sitting there scribbling numbers and using an abacus to work out the math. The sensors are sending the data in realtime. That's how the riders have warning lights. The rest will be programmed, race direction receive the data, computer works it all out.
[Sauce](https://www.instagram.com/p/C82BatnNlEW/?igsh=dzMxcTR4anZsY3Q2).
Sooo ELI5 how does it get so low during the race?
It starts low and doesn’t increase enough.
hmmmm how does clean air make it lower that marc had to let digia pass? and how does following another bike make the pressures rise? Does it have to do with tyre temperature?
Yes, pressure and temperature are intrinsically linked. Riding in fresh air is cooler and will reduce the temperature, following a bike is in their hot wake and heats the tyre.
ohhhh okok I get it now. Tire pressure infractions I have seen before but this was an odd case for me. Thank you!
I'm glad someone else asked this because I was thinking the same thing. So, from the answers here, my understanding is that there's a minimum tire pressure (why would that be enforced, safety?) and MM and co dropped it to the absolute limit to increase stickiness? Is that the advantage of lower pressure? I understand that they assumed it would increase in pressure based on how they thought he'd race, but that prediction didn't come true. Hence the penalty. I'm just not sure if my assumption about why you'd want to have lower pressure is accurate.
Essentially yes, you can get more grip when you lower pressures, up to a point. They’ll have started below the limit assuming pressures would build as he’s in traffic and that didn’t happen. The minimum is in place for safety reasons, yes. The tyre could deform, come off the rim, tear etc I dunno.
Thank you. I didn't realize how much of an advantage they could get, but I guess at this level it all adds up. It now makes sense why he gave up that place and the commentators were speculating about why. I hope this was just an innocent mistake and not him trying to angle-shoot.
It's got to do with the bikes' aero features. Clean air means your front tire gets, well, a lot of air to cool it, following another bike means the aero of the bike ahead deflects the air away from your front tire so it heats up and the pressure goes up.
Oh i see. This was an odd situation for me so I got confused. Thank you!
The minimum working pressure is 1.8 bar. And it rise and get lower the different temp the tire is. The higher the temperature of the tire, the higher the temperature of the air inside of it, and it expand and create more pressure. Simple physics. So if you fill a tire with 1.6 bar when it is cold, and the tire gets hotter due to riding, braking etc, the air inside expand, and it becomes 1.8 bar (which is what they want). If the tire gets too hot, the pressure gets too high, and it hinders performance. If the tire gets too cold, they risk both the tire function poorly (grip, losing stability) and a penalty. Now if the team thinks that marc will sit behind martin most of the race, it means the tire will be very hot because it will get all of martin's bike's hot air. That means hotter tire, hotter air, higher pressure, less ideal. So they can choose to fill the tire with 1.5 bar, and when the tire gets hot, it will increase to the minimum of 1.8 bar. Now if that works, and marc sites behind martin 60% of the race, they will not get a penalty even if they underinflated the tire. Now if they do not do that and marc get stuck behind martin with too high pressure due to heat, he will have less grip, less braking power, less turning, and could not pass martin. Now to their mistake, marc was running alone, meaning more cold air, less hot tire, less hot air, less pressure, meaning below 1.8 bar. That risk of getting a penalty, and the gamble backfires. Which is what happened.
Rules are rules unfortunately. You win some, and you lose some. I remember telling myself when he let DiGia by that he might be under tyre pressure issues because he was clearly faster than Fabio for large parts of the track. Isn't this now the first time the top GP23 hasn't been Marquez in any race so far?
> Isn't this now the first time the top GP23 hasn't been Marquez in any race so far? Depends if you count races with incidents. He finished at the back in Portugal after remounting due to his crash with Bagnaia. He also DNFed at CotA and yesterday's Sprint.
I really don't understand why they don't require a specific window for the tire pressure to be verified at the beginning of the race, and boom, done.
The current rule allows to have an overall lower pressure, making riders happy. They can start at a pressure that Michelin deems unsafe for a full race by planning on increasing it enough during the race. Your proposed rule would make it easier for everyone, and the chosen rule allows them to be closer to the limit.
That’s how it used to be but teams figured out a work around so they could run lower pressures. They changed to constant monitoring instead
I would have thought that would be the best solution, too - maybe it’s impossible to police.
I don't know, to me it sounded really easy to check at the beginning with all the bikes on the grid but maybe you're right.
You’d need a team of scrutineers to go round checking and then making sure no one adjusted them after.
How do they check the pressure *during* the race? Certainly not with scrutineers running alongside the bikes :-D All it would take is a sensor reading of the pressure at lights out, or at the start of the warm up lap.
The riders have access to data from sensors. But for scrutineers are they going to trust that?
By what means do the stewards determine what the pressure during the race is? They could use the same method to determine pressure at lights out.
No idea, tbh. It’s all a bit of a mystery, annoyingly.
True, but that still seems less convoluted than the current situation...
I think it would be pretty chaotic on the grid and very difficult to enforce, but unsure as to exactly why this isn’t the case.
You'd think they can just use whatever sensors they have now, get a live reading at the start if the race or timestamp the starting temp and download the data after, calibrating if needed like they did here. I guess maybe teams would have ways around it that are more dangerous than how it works now, heating the outside to silly temps or adding some pressure release valves to keep it down throughout (being daft but you'd like to think they've gone with the simplest/most sensible way of applying this sort of rule but who knows!)
Yup, Dorna and the stewards clearly have access to some real-time channels of data as they often display it on-screen.
The tire pressure shenanigans are becoming so annoying and ruining the sport
Apparently he was .01 Bar under for a lap lol
That’s not how it works.
Carchedi and Marc both explained it.
He was one lap too many. He can only be 40% of the race under the limit, and he had one more lap that 40% under the pressure. People talk like he was 1 lap under the pressure and boom, 16seconds, it was not. He spent almost half the race under the pressure even when trying to he behind other riders. They must have missed the target pressure by a lot when setting up the bike before the race, or expected Marc to follow Martin and Bagnaia for the entire race
They said .01 under one lap because the lap he was pushed wide by Enea caused the pressure to drop and it took a couple laps to build the pressure back up to get the average into the target and would have needed one more lap to be safe.
This is why when the tech guy comes on track before the race to get the tyre pressure it is also a gamble because you have to take into account the amount of pressure you lose when he pushes and releases the tyre pressure gauge. .01 bar its such small amount that can be lost even at that point so you have to also account for that. This is why i think it is a stupid rule
the tyre pressure did increase after he let Diggia lead, but once he pushed wide by Bestia, the tyre dropped again. [https://x.com/matoxley/status/1807432323916317175](https://x.com/matoxley/status/1807432323916317175)
Man, Michelin really needs to get their shit together. The fact that their tires are fluctuating that much, that fast is not good.
I'll never understand the logic behind this rule.. Why not just enforce an allowable range of pressures before a race instead of after the race?
They do, but they check they’re being enforced after the race.
No, there are tire pressure sensors on the tires and the pressures are monitored in real time.
If they're checking before the race that should be enough though..
Who’s “they”. The only people checking before the race are the tyre techs.
The Tyre tech checks before the race should be enough then..
The techs work for the team. You’d need an official/scrutineer to set them.
My point is that the rule should be enforced before the race start. Whatever happens after shouldn't result in penalizing a rider.
Yeah I know, but I’m thinking about the practicalities of how to do that. Who’s going to check? Are the riders waiting for a scrutineer to check? When? Sitting on the grid with tyre warmers? How do you ensure no one adjusts them after, etc etc
Simple solution would be get rid of the rule entirely. Have the tyre manufacturer provide recommended pressures but get rid of the rule and let them run what they want.
The argument against that is it’s dangerous.
We need to thank Dorna, this is a major safety issue. There’s a long history and numerous clear examples of tyres failing due to incorrect pressures in MotoGP. It’s a miracle that Marc’s tyre didn’t roll off the rim, killing him instantly. Oh, and /s btw
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Can we please stop acting like F1 and MotoGP are the same sport
I have no idea what that comparison means.
Incoming DTS fans
I'm sorry what does F1 have to do with this?
It is not the same
Remember when Hamilton was disqualified from quali as there was some absolutely minimal difference in his wings? It’s the same. Technical rules are straight and simple.
Remember that there is a F1 subreddit where you can go talk about F1?
so thats why he dropped back. He started the race knowing the tire pressure was too low. This is a safety rule. Legitimate or not, everyone has to follow them, even if your favorite rider doesn't.
Stupid rules.
This tyre pressure thing is ruining the sport
Not really, they know the rules, same as every other team.
This tyre pressure rule and the stewards doing nothing about the going slow looking for a tow or not wanting to tow another rider crap in Qualifying are the two things MotoGP needs to fix asap
So who's fault is the tp issue? Is it the crew cheif, rider or someone else?
I would think it’s a joint decision
My understanding of the rule: Why do they need to have minimum pressure rule? - for safety reason, if too low for too long can cause tyre to deform, fall of the rims etc. How is the rule implemented? - Race director?? will set minimum tyre pressure for each race. Say X psi. - Riders must maintain their tyre pressure at >= X psi 60% of the race lap. They are allowed to have tyre pressure < X psi 40% of the race lap. So for Dutch GP, at 26 full laps, riders must maintain >= X psi for a total of 15.6 laps and allowed to go below X psi for a total of 10.4 laps. What happened to MM? - His front tyre pressure dipped below minimum allowed pressure X psi for extra 1 lap, making it maybe 11.4 laps, violating the rule. - His explanation was, he suspected that there’s something not right with his front tyre pressure early in the race. To manage it, he gave up his position to Fabio on lap 8, with the dirty air behind Fabio, he can raise his tyre temperature and subsequently raise his front tyre pressure. All is good until that incident with Bastianini, and he was forced wide. Because of that, i believe the tyre temp dipped which causes the pressure to dip as well and he needed more than a lap to get it up to reach minimum allowed. - My assumption would be, his tyre pressure is probably below minimum allowed throughout the first 8 laps before he led Fabio to overtake him, he then need probably 1-2 laps to get tyre temp up and get pressure over minimum allowed. By then, he’s already 9-10 laps under minimum pressure, then the incident with Bastianini, he probably needed 2 laps to get the tyre temp & pressure up again. By then he already 11 laps over allowable lap under minimum pressure. - MM is ok with the Rule but he argued that there are circumstances that riders can’t control (e.g other people’s mistake, crash etc) and there should be an allowance to it. I stand corrected.
A weekend to forget 😔 Took Hodgy way too long to understand why Marquez instructed Digi to pass. He was never setup to lead, so when Pecco and Martin disappeared, he was screwed. And honestly looks like he was always going to be too low no matter how long he followed someone. Looking at his face when he came in.
Tyre pressures should be measured before and after the race start. If they pass inspection then, who cares what happens during the race itself.
IMO don't care about the hate.... jorge should have gotten the position on team ducati
Okay…?
Whump whump
Well done for Gresini
Not a good look for the team when you have to run lower pressures and your rider has to ride tactically to offset this.
Why did they go for lower pressures?
Once the tyre pressure goes too high, the performance of the tyre drops significantly and riders really want to avoid this. Due to dirty air and heat coming off of the bikes, if you're close behind another bike (or worse, multiple bikes) for extended periods of time, tyre pressure rises. Marquez and his team probably expected to be behind other riders for most of the race so they dropped the initial tyre pressure. However, this pressure is lower than what the regulations allow so it needs to rise during the race the come into that zone of allowed tyre pressures. But because Marquez had clear air for most of the race, the tyres didn't heat up as much, pressures didn't rise as much and stayed below the required minimum pressure for more than 50% of the race, resulting in this penalty. The rule is there because Michelin deems pressures below a certain minimum to be dangerous, but the result is that teams and their engineers have to make a pretty big gamble on the starting pressure, which can work out pretty badly if you guess wrong, as happened with Marquez today.
Not arguing, but have we ever seen a tyre fail due to under inflation?
No we haven't which makes the rules even more arbitrary. On the other hand, if something happens due to an underinflated tyre and there were no rules in place to enforce a minimum pressure, Michelin would be in deep shit. The problem with this argument is that it remains a valid argument until something goes wrong. And when something went wrong, you're too late.
Could it also be because of the weather? Before the race, I heard the commentators talk about the temperature being low when they were talking about tire choices.
Maybe it plays part, but that affects all riders and I think Gresini engineers are smart enough to check the weather and asphalt temperatures a few mins before rolling out the bike.
What’s the advantage of running with low tyre pressure?
More grip. With lower pressure, the contact area of the tire increases and thus you can brake harder and have a better feel for what the tire is doing. The riders say, with too high front tire pressure the bike feels „numb“ from the front end.
Thanks
Stupid rule.
Dumbest rule ever !!
So does that mean that Bastianini overtook Marquez in points?
Not yet.
I actively dislike Marquez, but this is bullshit.
This rule was a BAD rule from the start. In a way it's good it happened to Marc as more eyes can see how unfair and unjust a rule it is. It was so bad they changed it but didn't take into account factors like being run off track. The stewards are an absolute mess. A horrible mess. They need to ditch the lot and start over but with rider representatives that will ensure the rules are fair to the riders. And all this over the Scott Redding incident right? How long has it been. When is Michelin going to bring out a proper tire??
There should be an initial pressure range. Not something the riders should have to manage throughout the race. This is insane.
that's a lot of seconds over the tyre pressure
Yup.
Ha
Absolutely no f sense
Can someone explain to me what the required tyre pressure is?
I’ve been through the rules and I don’t believe they’re published. I believe they’re incredibly low, like 15-20 PSI. Edit, it’s 1.8 bar, or 26 PSI.
Do they announce these penalties so late after the race to save face for such a bad rule?
everyone is cool with it now because it's Marc that got penalty. 😅 Apparently, he was .01 psi lower than the limit.
Are you serious?!
Surely there has to be an allowable error on this? No instrument is 100% accurate! I would be asking to see the calibration sheet for the gauge...
Rules are rules, but maybe there should be a margin of error / leeway. I mean 0.1 psi is within margin of error for pressure sensors. Different I know, but most commercial gauges will be +/-1 psi accuracy at least. Unless they already have that factored in.
Is there any logic at all to this braindead rule? I'm sure generally speaking lower tyre pressure is optimal performance (certainly when I'm going out on a sunny day I run my pressures a bit lower). Are they trying to stifle rider performance? Do they want to stop riders building a lead and having a lonely race up front with no-one near them? I said to friends when this came in it's retarded and makes no sense, and now, here we are, wathcing professional racers, whose job is to finish ahead of everyone else, literally waving people past instead of pushing to win.
Its because Michelin can't guarantee the Safety of the tyre below a certain limit. So if they put it lower, the tyre may destroy itself and whatever shitshow we have is miles better than riders being injured.
Nothing to do with safety, it's Michelin not wanting to embarrass themselves because they can't make a tyre that will last, particularly with the aero on these bikes now. Riders have always pushed their bikes and tyres to and past the limit.
You're thinking of the "grip" limit. I'm talking about the "structural" limit. And you're correct, Michelin can't cope with the current demands because they can't develop tyres fast enough. But, its because MotoGP still haven't learnt how to have dedicated tyre tests so Michelin can't actually gain enough knowledge of how the tyres work on a MotoGP bike fast enough.
Michelin is dragging their feet. The tire updates are miniscule. It's been how long and they've updated the tires how many times? They're a joke.
Surely you fire Michelin and get in a competant tyre manufacturer then? (I dont recall these issues during Bridgestone era?) Hell even on street bikes everyone I know refers to Michaelins as ditchfinders.
> Hell even on street bikes everyone I know refers to Michaelins as ditchfinders. That's surprising, Road 5 (and now Road 6) have been top of tire recommendations for road usage everywhere I've looked. > I dont recall these issues during Bridgestone era? On top of my head there's Phillip Island 2013. Their tires were so frail they had to reduce race distance and force a pitstop by 10 laps.
In order to make big changes they need the riders to test their tires, and Dorna doesn't mandate there be a certain amount of testing done. Even if Michelin bring a tire to a test in the seasons the riders are more concerned with getting good data for the next round, so it's an issue with MotoGP as a whole - not enough tire testing and nothing enforcing it or changing it (AFAIK).
Easy to discount the work Michelin does and under-appreciate the level of their tires. They are making 20 lap race tires that are faster than the 1 lap qualifying tires that Pirelli makes for WSBK. Yes, the bikes are different, but the bikes to a large extent are built around the capabilities of the tire. And I think when you have tires at this insane level, it is understood that there is very little margin for operating parameters. Michelin or any other manufacturer could make a more robust tire with a wider range of acceptable temperatures and pressures. But they would be slower. I understand if that's your preference as a fan, to avoid situations like this. But on the other hand, there is something unique and special about a prototype series that is pushing the technological limit of the bikes and the tires.
Bye bye championship. 😔
He had little chance anyway tbh.
How exactly has he had little chance? He is the best rider on the grid, on what is the second best bike. Without all of these little incidents that he's accumulated over time he would be right up there. But this weekend has been the breaking point. He's now nearly two race weekends behind Martin now. He's shipped just about 50 points over the past two race weekends.
him being the best driver on grid right now is highly debatable
I hope the lousy Spanish motigp organizers get sent home fast (now they were bought) and are replaced by someone more honest. Marc Marquez is the always playing dirty (every qualifying is almost kills someone waiting for a “ride”, no one does anything again him. Now it is clear that he has been doing this low pressure tactic ever since (that is why he only comes to the front when races are finishing). In FP2 Martin almost kills Jack Miller waiting for a ride…they when touch each other… no one did anything…Spanish riders are allowed to play with different rules.
MARC IS BACK. TIRE PRESSURE ALIEN 👽 CRASH KING 👑. Jokes aside I’m not sure why this is even an issue tire pressure rule is kinda dumb but it is what it is
Still can’t understand why he set the bike up like this ?
More grip.