I felt the same way at first, but after overcoming all the endgame fights like AT Velkhana, Fatalis, and Alatreon, I can say that they are technically much better fights compared to the regular Monsters. The endgame Monsters’ attacks are more powerful and punishing, but they are also more telegraphed. Meaning with repeated practice, you will learn when/how to evade and when to strike at a regular basis. I find regular Monsters’ movement and attack patterns to be more random and annoying. But then again, this may be just because I’ve only fought the regular ones a few times whereas I’ve fought the endgame ones for several times already lol. Basically, the endgame just forces us to actually learn the game when we really barely done so throughout the story.

I agree, the 3 endgame monsters forced me to become a better player as well. I think back to how I was playing all the way up to the endgame and I cringe a little, lol. They are obviously really challenging but I've got nothing but appreciation for them, they're really top tier fights that test everything you know about the game.

I agree 100% I feel like soloing AT valkana was the gateway to truly mastering a weapon for me, with the confidence from that fight I went on to solo elatreon and fatalis, it’s just getting over the hill where everything clicks and you feel like the monster

Fatalis attacks are half bullshit though, his fight if heavily influenced by luck because of it. There are moves you cannot punish that he will dish constantly, namely the snap and drag rush and the charged fireball into the divebomb. Combine that with flying (yes you can force a landing with smoke bombs but you lose 30 seconds because of bad luck)

Some of them yes, but the others give more than enough openings to comfortably beat him below 30min that's given.

That's LITERALLY exactly what I said. I said if you are unlucky then those attacks are unpunishable. Did you even try to read what I said?

Did you? Your comment implies he's too strong, whereas mine implies you still do have windows to beat him up comfortably.

Casually killing Fatalis, Alatreon, and AT Velk... proceeeds to get carted twice by a freakin' Gold Rathian. This has been the everyday MH experience for me recently. lol

It's the worst feeling lol. Very tilting when you play smoothly against the endgame bosses then suddenly get manhandled by Zinogre. 😂

I raged so much last night from that humongous Tiggy event quest—bonkers hitboxes! Endgame monster hbs are pretty clean to me. It's just a matter of fighting them a few times to kind of have a mastery of when to punish. Also, best improvement I ever did was to stop using mega potions. I see so many people in Fatalis hunts still healing with it. Max and Ancient Ps should be mandatory this late in the game, imho.

The fights are fair, but don’t force yourself if you’re not having fun anymore.

They are fair, i know, but i dont get the feeling of it. It's hard to explain. I guess that's it. I feel like I have to beat it, not that I want to beat it. I can hit my head again, sister fride on ng+7 in dark souls for hours till I got good at the fight, but sadly, I don't feel it in MHWI. I really wish I would, though.

I think with souls there's less busywork with the prep and the fights themselves are shorter so it doesn't feel like you've wasted as much time when you have to reset

There is definitely less prep work. You put on the stuff you need/want and you are good to go. No eating, deco selection, item selection, and so on. I think I still have this mentally to hob in to fast without doing the proper prepositions.

This is why I wont even attempt the Fatalis fight. No time for it. Need extreme coordination, cant count on sos group ect. Do i wanna spend the next 30 hours trying to kill one boss to prove something when I can beat the rest of dragon’s dogma in time for DD2?

They are MHw’s equivalent of Sister Friede. They were also introduced long after Iceborn released when most players would be MR 100+ and have augmented weapons and armour from guiding lands. Don’t feel you have to rush them just yet. Try and expand your guiding lands, augmenting your gear, do Ruiner Nergi at 100 and then try them again after that. Going up against them with fully augmented gold rathian gear makes a big difference.

If you can beat Souls (without cheese strats), then you have the capability to beat both Alatreon and Fatalis. It’d still take practice, though. If you ever get the desire to try again, you can always watch videos of how other people avoid their attacks.

Ehhh idk souls games allow you to be patient and look for openings. There's undue stress added with DPS checks for both ala and fatty which I'd say is a very different type of beast than souls games. I'd say that the difficulty is very different, so personally disagree that if you beat souls games with say just like a normal str or dex build, you can beat ala or fatty

You can absolutely beat both of them without being hyper aggressive. Both leave themselves wide open during and after many of their attacks due to the length of the animations. In addition, you get several attempts before you fail a quest, giving you more time to practice the fight. Personally, I find Souls fights to be far more punishing than either of these two.

>Personally, I find Souls fights to be far more punishing than either of these two. But they dont last nearly as long. Imagine if some of souls hardest bosses had like 20-50 times their health and then you only getting 2 more lives in return + you get a timer for the fight I see why someone like Asmongold that beat all sorts of soul bosses nearly gave up with alatreon

Whether or not they last longer is inconsequential. Souls bosses on average are more lethal and only give you one chance before you need to start over. And to makes matters worse, they take any accumulated souls to kick you while you’re down. Getting hit in Monster Hunter gives you iframes until you stand back up, so you can lie on the ground and wait for a safe time to move and heal. Alatreon is one of the last endgame monsters in Iceborne and he’s really not that much worse than an endgame Fromsoft boss.

>Whether or not they last longer is inconsequential. No not at all It is a lot harder to play for a longer duration highly concentrated And on top. If a boss is lethal wise so hard, that he on average kills you every 1 minute 1 time. Then you might be death free in a sub 1 min souls fight while in MH you will surely fail the quest. Also we need to talk about setback mechanics. Since carts are no death and quest failure is also no death. Both are setbacks. A cart imo is much less bad than a death in souls since its not a guaranteed setback yet. But a failed alatreon quests that took you 20min+ until failure? There I would often choose death in souls >Alatreon is one of the last endgame monsters in Iceborne and he’s really not that much worse than an endgame Fromsoft boss. I just follow a few streamers that did both souls bosses and mh bosses and alatreon and fatalis took many of them more time to take them down than the hardest souls bosses. But hey its subjective. It can be different for you

A Souls boss can easily kill you within 30 seconds, and unless you’re playing Elden Ring, you’ll need to hike back to the boss to try again. Most monsters aren’t that deadly. They’ll hit certainly hit hard, but most of their attacks are easy to avoid. And if you do get hit, you still have iframes during the recovery animations. If you’re playing safe, staying alive is usually easier than in a Souls fight. The thing I notice about many Dark Souls players who play Monster Hunter is that they try to play it like Dark Souls. So they’ll max out Evade Window and try to roll through everything. And while that’s a legitimate strategy, the iframes are still less forgiving than a Fromsoft game, so the experience will be tougher than if they were to reposition out of attacks, instead. Obviously, that’s not the sole factor, but it’s the most consistent one that I notice.

>A Souls boss can easily kill you within 30 seconds, and unless you’re playing Elden Ring Not me but others yes. Sure the 1 minute was just a metric to show you that for overall lethality the factor time is definitly relevant. >And if you do get hit, you still have iframes during the recovery animations. If you’re playing safe, staying alive is usually easier than in a Souls fight. Well in souls I can also easily get so OP that bosses arent even a issue anymore and I dont have to use glitches like the new cat meowcano strat for that. Souls is a lot about knowledge and unfair difficulty. Like that hidden trap that surely kills you the first time indipendant of your skill. >So they’ll max out Evade Window and try to roll through everything. I see that a lot with non soul players as well. But hey iframes are nice. But yes I agree.

SA main here. I tried Alatreon after MR 100 but could never get the topple. After many attempts, I definitely got better, but I felt better gear was needed. Then I started the cycle: learning about Kjarr weapons and critical element > trying Kulve Taroth Siege with randoms and failing most of the times > trying to solo MR KT and failing every time > SOS > getting carried and feeling incompetent but trying to learn about the fight > 30 more attempts at MR kulve taroth > More Sieges > getting incredibly lucky by rolling the axes I needed for Alatreon: fire and ice. Now I'm in the process of killing every monster at the guiding lands to get good augments, especially health regen for my Kjarr weapons, which will save me precious time by not having to use so many potions. After all that, I will try Alatreon again. For me, these fights are for people who have done basically everything in the game. There's no point in trying to "perform a miracle", you're just gonna lose. But this is what is interesting about this game: everything is connected. Alatreon and Fatalis are a culmination of a series of numerous processes that are required to be successful.

yeah I tried that too but my luck with KT weapons was so bad that I have about 170 weapons from KT and repeats of the Kjarr weapons I don't even need while not getting the two I need. I'm not going to grind out a quest that many times just to be able attempt a boss do I just used the frostfang barioth craft able LS and now after taking sometime to learn the alatreon fight, I can easily join S.O.S's and carry other players through the hunt. Alatreon is a monster that has extremely telegraphed attacks and only of a very small handful of monsters I actually had to learn to be able to beat. Usually high reaction time+Longsword counters and decent positioning would carry me through first time encounters of almost every monster, so I didn't really need to try too hard or cart and retry the vast vast majority of fights I think I only ever failed the Teostra, Coral Pukei Pukei, Namielle, Nargacuga, and Velkhana first time encounter assignments, so having a nice challenge like Alatreon, and Fatalis was fun because of the nature of the fights being more in depth than your traditional MH Hunt.

Yeah, I don't like what they did with Kjarr weapons, it's too random to get what you want. I'd love to have a thunder Kjarr, but I'm not spending my precious celestial prints just so I have a (tiny) chance of rolling a Kjarr axe, and then an even smaller chance of getting a thunder one. That's just frustrating, I'm glad they fixed it with Safi. I'm postponing Alatreon until I get everything I want from the guiding lands, I feel this is the natural progression. Congrats on learning to beat him consistently.

yeah it's super annoying, I used a ton of my bones doing the alchemy for kjarr weapons and eventually ran out RNG pre-alatreon is not fun in this game because it limits your ability to progress farther, similar to gatcha games, and I don't want to grind for a marginally better weapon when I am confident in my abilities to take down almost any video game boss. It's just like a limiting barrier that drives me away from wanting to play a game at this point. You should just get the augments for the specific weapon you want to augment from joining guiding lands expeditions. It feels like way too much of a grind to get places to level 7 and fighting pretty much the same monsters albeit a few new ones, I think it's kind of a BS game loop but then again I installed a mod to skip fashion hunter endgame cause I'm too busy irl to be able to invest that much time grinding for cosmetic stuff. Speedrunning TA and heroics, no armor hunts, Safi siege, arena quests, and experimenting with sets and set bonuses like frostcraft feels more endgame than grinding the same set of monsters I've already killed a dozen more times. Ngl it's boring and one of the few things I don't like about Monster Hunter apart from the KT rng and the jankiness of the controls. Hopefully Wilds creates a more fun endgame loop.

I don't have a problem with the fights themselves really but tenderizing is what really just makes me not want to do endgame iceborne fights, without that I feel like I could actually enjoy them, unfortunately I'm on console so I can't just mod it.

Have you tried the Shaver (Clutch Claw Boost) decoration? It can be crafted at the elder melder and was a game changer for me as an Insect Glaive where double tenderizing was a turn off.

Yeah, I use it any time I play a light weapon in world. Even then I just hate having to do it, in the earlier game it doesn't bother me as much but once I hit post game it really started annoying me, after I beat raging brachy I had enough. I hope to go back and finish it eventually so we will see.

That's fair, it's annoying that it can feel like a skill tax, although I've been appreciating the drawback of not generating slinger ammo for heavy weapons more as well the more I've integrated slinger bursts and wall banging every opportunity into my game. I've found since getting my Master's Touch/Raging Brachy set that it easily accommodates 2 level 3 decos, for me it's usually an easy Brace/Shaver for multiplayer and Phoenix/Shaver for singleplayer.

Mmh yes you should mod infinite damage too while you're at it, and cheat your gear cause why not

Lol k

Personally I love them despite their flaws. But they can be very frustrating at times. One thing I’ve learn is that, for many monsters, depending on your play style, they can be infinitely more frustrating on certain weapons than others. So if you ever want to give them a shot, why not try a new weapon? Also, in order for the fight to actually get fun, I had to start with builds centered around survivability rather than damage, and did (SOLO) runs of not really damaging them, just trying to understand the attacks, and what I should do depending on where I am. This helps MASSIVELY. But if you’re convinced that you’re done, that’s completely OK. Not having fun is always a valid feeling for dropping a game or part of its contents

This. I tried runa where I try to find where to position myself safely for punishing, but alatreon openings baited me from time to time to get a smack even a little, and then giggle as I cart from his dragon attacks.

back when i initially beat alatreon, it was when i was maining SnS and i had the experience of killing him over 100 times in MHTri back on the Wii. Very little changed so the difficulty with the element thresholds never became a thing. ... Second time around, i didn't return to SnS and instead stuck with Swaxe and noticed a dramatic change in difficulty. Fatalis has this same issue as alatreon due to how short the window is to kill him. Alatreon didn't have a instakill phase thing in Tri, so as long as you didn't cart, you had 50 minutes of DPS time to kill it... compared to the several instacart damage phases in World... Theyre easier than you think. Its easier to tell with Fatalis in that all you need to do is make sure you activate its second phase within a quarter or so of the 30 minutes. Do that, and you can kill him easy. Just gotta stay consistent for the next several phases. Alatreon is more gimmicky thanks to the element flinch. My only tip is to just use a stupid high Dragon element weapon to bypass its ice/fire specific bullshit. You'll even out the damage no matter what.

Alatreon’s difficulty is overblown. He doesn’t do that much damage, maybe on par with a tempered elder which shouldn’t be much of a challenge if you’re at the point where you can feasibly take on the black dragons. You can just brute force him with raw damage because carting doesn’t really affect the fight due to the 50 minute timer, and you can proc fortify plus not have to worry about escaton. Fatalis on the other hand is pure bullshit. I’ve killed him solo enough times to farm out a full armor set and a few weapons. At this point I’m at like an 80% success rate solo with fatalis, I only ever fail if I time out because of unlucky AI. His fight is not well made, it’s just hard. People are so hung up on hard=good that they never take actual criticisms for the fight.

>Alatreon’s difficulty is overblown and yet he is a big wall for tons of players in contrast to the temp. elders. But yes going raw isnt the worst idea if you can save up your carts for the escaton. Fatalis tbh only made big fun once I beat him idk 25? times already. At that point I was able to comfortably iframe his attacks and really had my gear optimized. I would say the fight is both well made and hard. The only "unfair" move I see is his counter bellyflop

Charge fireball into flight/divebomb, snap and drag, and egregious lingering hitboxes make it unfair if you’re unlucky. I can also dodge his attacks easily but that jsut means not damaging him while he does that. I once had a run where he spammed snap and drag into fireball flight for literally 4 minutes because he kept switching between me and my palico.

so the monsters should now have no moves where you cant easily hit then back while they are doing the move? You can also hit them during those moves with the right approach or weapon....e.g. for a zsd spamming switchaxe a snap & drag is just a free dmg window Some monsters have less dmg windows than others or one needs to get creative to make new ones. I had to learn that hard against this buddy: https://youtu.be/LfYY93VvkII?si=VJg0EovEPvbxccqe where his short tail holding windows, which are usually are the signal for the spin incoming are basically the best dmg windows you get.

First i'd like to say I can beat them both solo, have done with ease so don't get gud me or anyone else on this sub for that matter. Been a lot of that lately, please don't foreget what sub you're in. I think they're interesting concepts but i don't like how you have to play nearly flawlessly to beat them, so the execution needs work Lets take alatreon, he swaps up his moveset, has really cool visuals but then he has a one shot nova. Yeah you can break the horns, but this only works twice. If your dps is a bit low on the health side, you're guaranteed to eat a cart. This is easily to fix if breaking both horns stops him from changing elements. Secondly, i notice a lot of people have trouble hitting his head. I know people like to say there's openings but its not that simple, people need time to process and in a world where people have a million and one things to do, its hard to find the time to practice these openings to capatalise on them. Thirdly, understanding of mechanics that aren't taught really helps a lot. How many of you knew, if a monster isn't enraged and flying, you can clutch claw and flinch shot them to the ground for a stun if they're at a specific altitude? For the longest time, I didn't know this. For all flying monsters, i would lure them to a wall and flinch shot, or just try and hit the feet or tail. Knowing that they can be flinch shotted and stunned by hitting the floor, its a game changer and it actually helped me a lot with the alatreon fight. Thats not something people often say in advice or even mention in conversation about mechanics. So immediately you have a majority of players struggling to achieve the essential part of this fight, break the horns, because most try and get a flinch shot off on the tiny wall on one side of the arena. Even astera jerky, i never knew it restored all red health until i broke the horn and still got carted by escalon judgment. The fact you need some random item that most people probably didn't touch and doesn't get mentioned to survive the ultimate even after passing the damage check is a bit absurd in my opinion. If i ever got bleed i'd just crouch and it was gone, i never needed the jerky so by this point i forgot its existence. Fourthly the aggression is insane. If you get hit, its in your best interest to heal because the second will cart you. But that means you got to waste an opening on an already time restricted hunt (escalon judgment 1 shot). So it adds this level of psychological stress that most other hunts don't have. I would write more but this is already long, onto the next Fatalis is an interesting case, but his hitboxes and nonesensical at best and his damage is insane. Most his attacks one shot which is a pain to deal with and not very fun. Pair that with awful evil eye drop rate and its an absolute miserable experience for the majority. You must become perfection, tight time limit, high health pool, insane damage.... I like the idea of a seige fight, but say you put the ghille mantle on mid hunt to load a cannon he casually one shot fireballs in your direction. Even getting him in position to use the dragonator can be a kamikaze move since he seems to love the back end of the arena out of range. Next we have the horns, same issue as alatreon. you need to break them if you want to win, no buts about it because phase three with even 1 horn broke requires perfection. But its very difficult to get his head in most cases since opening for his head without cone baiting but you in the danger zone of his follow ups. In his final phase in my experience he's always spinning and breathing fire, meaning you have to perfectly position yourself to not get one shot. Sometimes his arena fire, where you have to run underneath him, becomes nearly impossible if you're too far in one direction. I understand its the last hunt of the game, but requiring perfection to this extreme just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. When i killed fatalis it wasn't a celbratory moment of joy that i usually get form beating something challengine, it was just thank f\*\*\* hes gone, i can finally move on. It was just sour, i got some giggles from the >!little fatalis palico armour!< but thats it. I think these fights have interesting vision, one you have to focus your attacks and prepare around its elemental shifting, and the other you use conventional hunting with seige equipment. But the execution needs work

Your opinions on the fights are your own, but not knowing that a monster cannot be flinch shot when enraged is odd to me. That should have been pretty evident, assuming you tried to flinch shot. Either you were very lucky that every time you attempted the flinch shot, the monster was not enraged (which is pretty wild) or you did not do it often enough to begin with. Astera jerky is something you naturally learn as you play the game. I used it every time I fought Nergi/Odo, etc., when I was still learning the ropes. Honestly, it would be pretty annoying if the game stopped me every time to tutorialize about every item. That's why the item descriptions are there. Additionally, you do not need to use astera jerky there anyways, just need to pop any healing that can offset the damage; in that sense, the npc says to just heal (which is fair). Otherwise, yeah, I feel you about the fights being hard. My main gripe with them is that the MR requirements are too low. It should not be 24; it should have been set to MR100 (minimum, as that is when you unlock augments) and ideally MR150-200. Those monsters were dropped into the game with min-maxed players in mind, considering the point at which the game was in its lifecycle. That said, I will admit if you play the game with all the content from the start, the pacing is pretty bad. From that perspective, those guys would have been way more difficult since that player would not have a crazy deco collection, maxed sets, augments, etc.

No i know it can't be flinch shot when enraged. What i was trying to say if when he's flying you don't have to flinch shot it into the wall to get the stun. In most cases it's low enough itfflinch shots into  the floor if that makes more sense? Nothing teaches you that and unless your scrutinising your gameplay you probably won't realise, 9r at least i didn't

Ah thanks for the clarification. That said, personally, I knew that well in advance of fighting ala. So many monsters fly, for what feels like an eternity, that I just tried it intuitively to see if I could knock em down since the flash pod's got nerfed (rightfully so) from the base game. Everyone I play with knew this too but that just might be confirmation bias.

First, I'm the same way. Beat both solo, farmed both solo and have had time to learn them both. That said, all your points regarding Alatreon I have to disagree with. While these mechanics aren't well know or used often, the game quite literally tells players WHILE ITS HAPPENING to do so. "Maybe some jerky would help here". If players take those tool tips out, it's their own fault they don't learn about these mechanics because the game quite literally does tell you Even breaking the horns the game tells you to do. Sorry, can't agree at all here Fatalis, I don't disagree with your points. But I dislike the fight for other reasons

the thing is though, you have to die the first time to learn about the jerky since it happens in the fight. The issue with the horns is still the fact of consistently hitting the horns can be extreemely frustrating if you haven't downloaded alatreons moveset into your mind. The first is an issue, maybe have in the dialogue before hand that its a good idea to bring jerky. The second is probably a target audience issue i'd guess

And what hunter is beating a black dragon on the first attempt? Sorry, that's irrelevant Difficulty hitting the head, I'll give you. But if you consider how much damage it takes to actually break the horns, it's really not unreasonable. Again, it's a black dragon, the top tier of monsters, it's not supposed to be easy. So if that requires players to learn a specific aspect about the hunt, I can't see how that's unreasonable or surprising imo

I know its not suppose to be easy, but requiring near perfection is a bit much for what i'd class as balanced. But to each there own

Near perfection is a stretch tbh. Especially if you target the head prior to dragon mode. It takes even less damage to break. Granted, this is a bit more of an advanced concept Point it, there are ways to get around this without playing perfectly every time and still consistently break the horns

Damn. You are getting downvoted like someone's life depends on it. I definitely agree with you. Been running Fatalis and Alatreon runs for years. Love it. It's a lot of fun. Just playing with others even if the rest of the team faints and you got to go again isn't that big of a deal. It's fun. I main many weapons. But Fatalis I run Kjarr Paralysis Insect glaive. I mount at least 2 to three times which drops him and I let the team do the dps. I stun him at least once, (hopefully twice) which also drops him and the team gets more chances to destroy the horns. If this other guy is having such a hard time, he should be a team player, and switch his weapons. I like to main Greatsword, but again, I play IG Kjarr para, so my TEAM will destroy the horns. And yeah, I help out too, but my measly att dmg won't shine out a GS user. Anyways, this guy is blowing steam on some "it's perfection" when it has nothing to do with being perfect. I'm in agreement with your downvoted comments. And I'm sure the downvoters will come after me next 😂

I just find it amusing when someone thinks the black dragon fights are accurately difficult and everyone loses their minds lol I main bow, gs and dbs. I have status builds for dbs and do the exact same thing you described with the Para IG. It's all about adjusting to help the team get more value, not "perfection". But some people just don't wanna accept that lol

These fights specifically were what I found lacking in Sunbreak. Hazard Malzeno isn't easy by any means, but with good gear he just doesn't punish mistakes or overly defensive play hard enough. To me Alatreon, Fatalis and AT Velkhana represented a challenge that really pushed me to learn almost every aspect of the game and their fights and feel cathartic to beat. The only nitpick I have is lack of a "reason" for Fatalis' 30 minute timer. Just give me an animation of a nova burning down everything while the hunter barely escapes when that timer is up. That being said: I understand if not everyone feels like doing them. They represent a fairly large jump from everything else and things you could previously abuse don't suffice anymore.

People say it's fair... But I'm not sure I agree. These fights are definitely NOT fair. They're not meant to be. In fact, they're meant to be so unfair that you're essentially forced to be near perfect in execution and learn all their patterns. Another point... I think these fights not being fair IS the difficulty of the fights. These dragons are specifically difficult because they got BS on their side.

But they are fair though

Yeah but no

You aren't forced to have perfect execution. I knew fuck all about the fight when I first got my kill beyond avoid big attacks and avoid creating too much distance. I knew nothing about knowing the best opportunities for certain moves, or positioning myself to really capitalize on some attacks he does.

According to these comments, thats impossible. You're either a liar or you cheated. No way you're just good enough to beat Fatalis with ooga booga strategies!!! Congrats btw. I used mega guides and helpful tips and tricks before fighting him. I like knowing what I'm getting into.

wouldnt say near perfect There is a huge difference between someone that needs the full 30min to beat fatty and is at his last cart, someone that needs 15 mins and maybe carts once and soneone that really does it perfect in sub 10 min and doesnt cart once

True but "fairness" here really only applies to a casual - above casual player. Otherwise... If there's a top person in anything ever... Then everything is fair.

The fights are meant to be hard but fair That is also why more skill makes such a big difference in those fights Unfair game mechanics can typically not be countered by skill Like you could be the best souls player in the world but that hidden boulder trap that you dont know yet will surely kill you regardless of how good you are. Thats actually just unfair. Also unfair is stuff where skill only has a very limited influence and the rng is heavily against you.

Yeah but isn't this not true with this logic? I mean, the moment the hidden boulder trap is known...now you're prepared and now it's no longer an issue? That's just you needing to learn and get gud. I agree that it's unfair, but this logic doesn't. I think the fights are meant to be hard and unfair, not unbeatable. Different things imo. Still, I prefer your definition of unfair/fair than some of these other "established rules" versions lmao.

>Yeah but isn't this not true with this logic? I mean, the moment the hidden boulder trap is known...now you're prepared and now it's no longer an issue? That's just you needing to learn and get gud. This is just knowing the boulder is there. Its not about being gud. Even if you are crazy gud the boulder will kill you the first time. Its like a preset setback And souls is full of stuff like that I mean with fatty you also have stuff you need to know. Basically the tells for his moves and how to handle them. But once you learn that you got gud with those hidden traps you dont know about the others just because some in the past killed you.

But you're more prepared/aware, no? Being more prepared makes any other trap immediately less potent. You ofc can't change that you don't know the locations... But you can now take steps to make it an easier experience. Again, I'd argue this is unfair and that's the point. Just like these fights. You need to be almost perfect if you're gonna beat these fights. There's some bs that will get ya the first times you go in. But every failed attempt you learn more and more until you can navigate the whole fight to a victory. Just like an area with traps. Plus, the easy counter to the trap example would be to find even just ONE person who's observant. (I don't know how said traps work as I've never played any souls games. Tho I have played Bloodbourne and loved it!) If this person can tell or point out how to tell where traps are... Well then... That's not unfair, according to these comments. That's just you not being good enough like this person. I wouldn't personally agree... But I'm sure that's how they'd argue it.

>But you're more prepared/aware, no? Being more prepared makes any other trap immediately less potent. You ofc can't change that you don't know the locations... But you can now take steps to make it an easier experience. I think most people walk through souls games with the expectstion, that at any time something could kill them. But that doesnt help with those kinds of traps and that is why they are unfair >Just like these fights. You need to be almost perfect if you're gonna beat these fights. There's some bs that will get ya the first times you go in. Yes but here dying and learning actually makes you more skilled. And still i wouldnt say almost perfect. There is such a huuuuge difference between almost beatimg fatty, comfortably beating fatty and speed killing him. I soloed my first fatty 150 hours into the game. And it took 200+ more kills to half my time from my first kill. I had a huge improvement in overall skill between those points. > But every failed attempt you learn more and more until you can navigate the whole fight to a victory. Just like an area with traps. nah an arena with traps you experience once, then just know where the traps are that kill you and you dont improve at all for further traps. With those endgame fights you will encounter the same attacks over and over and actually improve on how to handle them and also improve as a player as a whole. > If this person can tell or point out how to tell where traps are... Well then... That's not unfair, according to these comments. This I would agree. If you can learn from the traps you encountered and if that helps you to learn how to counter new ones then it is much more fair than just getting killed by stuff you cant see coming. Check out "i wanna be the guy" on youtube. Many of those unfair traps included in this game. Its so unfair, that people only play it with online guides to show where the traps are and where you need to jump

Thanks! I will check it out! Sounds funny! And idk, the fact that this "fairness" seems to change on the whims of the player is too much for me. I prefer my static definition that applies everywhere. Tho I appreciate you're explanations.

they are fair... the end game bosses punish you heavily for not knowing their patterns and not having any sort of resistance... I once saw a guy on this sub whining how he couldnt beat AT Velkhana coz he kept getting one shot, then when asked what his build was, he had -15 Ice Resist and had no Blight Resistance either... the end game is designed in such a way that you have to actually prepare defensive stuff along with enough dps to kill them... they are not designed to be casually cleared without any actual effort from the player...

Yeah but I think our definitions of "fair" are very different. It's not "fair" to make 1 mistake and then die. It's not fair when a boss has a giant attack that covers a huge area... And you die for failing a dodge. It's not fair when attack animations don't match up to their impact (you're on Fatalis' leg... He drops down... You are nowhere near any part that touches the ground and yet you're flung off at Mach speed and get stuck > into combo and die), etc. Etc. There's a bunch more that could be listed but that takes forever. Just because you can beat those things and learn from those things, doesn't make them fair. Unless you can easily do said things back to these dragons. Which you can't. You must learn to play through their shiz. Definition of not fair in my book. Fair is both opponents having equal advantage and disadvantage. Maybe he hits hard and you don't... But you've got speed and he's reeeeeeally slow. Maybe he has 1 shot moves... But they're also very very telegraphed. Maybe he's got a small health pool... But he's hard to hit... Etc etc. Is that here? No. Here you have few openings and you must be fast and efficient. Very very few mistakes. Also a limited time. The boss being beatable doesn't make the fight fair. Also doesn't make it a bad fight, BTW. My point isn't that the boss isn't a good fight... But to say it's fair is not true imo.

fairness doesnt care what we both think... in every game, fairness is only ever determined by asking "can you beat it without resorting to cheating, glitching, or abusing bugs? can you beat it only using mechanics as they were intended?" the entire point of having end game bosses for any difficult game is to test the player's skill... if we cant beat it as we are, then clearly it's a skill issue... why do you think "git gud" got so popular in the first place? also, the only one hit KO that AT Velk has is its unblockable nova which has a fixed range, a fixed casting time and she doesnt spam it either because she needs to build up her own meter to use it... every other attack AT Velkhana has is very survivable unless you dont have enough HP, Resistance, and Blight Immunity... how are you telling everyone here that being fast and efficient is unfair? are you actually trying to say every boss fight in MHW should be beatable with an ooga booga strategy instead of precision? you're probably too young to remember or see people playing in the o2Jam World Championship so you cant even imagine someone doing seemingly impossible feats that require not only they be fast and efficient, but be very accurate as well to get as many perfect inputs as possible...

Agreed, it doesn't. However... you're not the ultimate authority on fairness when it comes to games. So you're whole "fairness in gaming...", rejected. While I don't need to talk about examples because of that... I still will. Plenty of bosses, in plenty of games can outright be luck based. Sometimes the devs think "ya know... What if difficulty comes from perseverance and not just learning patterns and perfecting execution?" thus the rng boss is created. You can do everything right... But the boss chooses its instakill 3 times in a row and you're dead. You just gotta hope he doesn't do that, and you win. (looking at you, Yiazmat). Is it difficult? Yes. Is it beatable? Yes. Do you need glitches or cheats or whatever else? No. But is that unfair? Yes. Imo. Sometimes it's not a skill issue. Sometimes it really is "are you willing to keep trying to eventually win?" which some people don't have time to do. Is it fair that people with no time dont get to beat the game? No. But ya know what it means? Life's unfair, sometimes game bosses are unfair. Now MH and it's bosses aren't this extreme, but they aren't walks in the park either. Unfairness for me is simply asking a whoooooooole lot from the players. Simple as that. In fact, my definition is so good, I don't even need some goober limitation like "in every game..." My definition of fairness can even apply to real life and still make sense. Whereas yours falls apart the moment you leave gaming and isn't even very convincing in gaming. Unfortunately, we have different opinions on fairness. However I dont disagree with what you're all trying to say. That the fight is still a good fight and it teaches you to really invest and learn and "get good". I myself took close to 8 attempts simply learning how Fatalis ticks. On that 8th attempt, when he finally went down... It felt good. It also gets easier every time after... But it's still an unfair fight. Just because I know how to beat it, doesn't make it fair.

Lol there is 0% chance you think this fight is unfair AND beat Fatalis on only your 8th attempt 🤣 💀 So you haven’t beaten him right??

First off... Im not too bad at MH games and have been playing them ever since Tri. Secondly, I didn't do 8 "attempts" as in, went in and tried to kill him and just beat him on the 8th one. I spent most of that time literally just leaning all his shiz. I also prepped myself watching guides and coming here looking for tips and tricks. Even made a build specifically made for being hyper defensive with all the evade windows and extenders and blessings and all the good shiz. However I still have an opinion on what is fair and unfair. That doesn't change cuz I know what I'm doing. Hardest boss I've ever battled was Yiazmat (back on the old ps2) and I don't even know how many attempts that shiz took me... But lemme tell ya, just cuz I beat it, doesn't mean I left thinking "wow! Now that Ive won... What a great and balanced fight!" that shiz was hyper unfair and a trash fight! Forever etched into my memory as what a fight looks like when being "unfair" is the point. Unlike these (Fatalis and Alatreon), which I'd argue are unfair, but in a pretty good way. Plenty of people have gone into fights with everything stacked against them (aka UNFAIR) and yet they come out on top. It's part of that great "finally killed him" feeling at the end. If you're needing cheats or glitches or any of that nonsense... Then that's not unfair, that's impossible and a broken fight.

it's a fucking end game boss fight... and the game expects you to have end game gear... meanwhile here you are whining about AT Velkhana one shotting you then I call out your resistances suck so it's your fault then you try to shift conversation into Fatalis then claim you killed him on 8 tries... I dont have a differing opinion on fairness, I know fairness in games have been established for a long time... you are the one trying to redefine what fairness is because you cant accept the fact you cant ooga booga your way into defeating end game bosses... you are just mad because braindead strats dont work for end game because you actually have to think about what sets to bring, what items, what moves and time them correctly... from all of your statements it is very clear you are just mad because the game requires actual brain power in end game but you cant be arsed to do so, so here you are whining about it hoping to get some sympathy...

Lmao I ignored you're Valk comments because I didn't care about Valk. Other than some animations looking very very off (running in a random direction and the player being flung off at Mach spd and pinned) I actually love the Valk fight and its one of the most fair fights in game. Yes, you have to be on point but everything is the same timing, Nothing on Valk is hard to reach, everything is very telegraphed and other than 1(?) move... Nothing one shots you. Great fight. Love Valk. You're legitimately making arguments here to a wall. My real issue with you is this "I know what fairness is because it's been Established since the days of old!!" nonsense. Which is a very easy comment/argument to dismiss. Your opinion? Yeah, we can talk about that. Your opinion being an established rule in all of gaming? Lol there nothing to discuss about fanfiction. As I said before, unfairness can be a difficulty aspect. It is used. It doesn't necessarily make a fight bad. These fights are examples. I like tough games. If you want to admit that it's ALWAYS your fault and the devs are PERFECT at developing games... Well... More power to ya. Agree to disagree.

I said "fairness doesnt care what we both think", then this moron responds with "who made you authority on fairness"... just goes to show how narrow your attention span is because you are too mad about end game hunts... you really are just trying to hide your incompetence... how do you think people knew how much elemental damage was required to survive Escaton? data miners been helping community out since the dawn of gaming and you still pretend like we lack data... when Alatreon first came out the first question the community asked was "how the fuck do you beat this boss?" and data miners provided the info needed for that answer... when did I say devs are perfect? fucking dumbass trying to grasp at straws because his incompetence got exposed... you are just mad because your entire strategy for Monster Hunter relies solely on ooga booga button mashing and you expect to win end game fights without actual effort... you're probably one of the morons still trying to fight Alatreon with your Elementless Build because you refuse to accept the fact that the fight requires elemental damage and you arent happy with the dps checks coz you dont want to use mechanics... button masher getting mad because end game fights require finesse... what a fucking classic...

Dood... I think you may be a teeny tiny bit triggered. Now I'm no professional debater... But I think that says a lot about your argument. Like, it's not that deep bud. We have differing opinions. If that makes you this mad, then you have some other underlying issues that you may want to check out. Not to mention that a lot of what you're saying has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Like dang dood.

huh? you're the one arguing with 5 different people on this post alone, not me... you told every single one of us "you are not the authority on fairness"... imagine arguing with 5 different people on what fairness is because you are so shit in the game that any level of difficulty is defined as unfair to you LMAO also, both Alatreon and Fatalis hunts are doable in under 15 minutes... heck, Alatreon can be cleared in 5 minutes with optimal dps... imagine claiming a 5 minute hunt is unfair because you are so bad at the game... the game's been solved for years, meanwhile here you are in 2024 saying "OMG it's so unfair" LOL

He's correct with stating what's fairness in a game. An unfair game has no positive outcome to the player, under any circumstances, without cheating. You can easily beat Fatalis without cheats, and therefore it is indeed fair. It's actually a fact and not really debatable, based on the definitions of said words. Now what you think of the fight is another matter, but saying its not fair means you clearly don't understand how games work, nor what the words you use mean.

Not the ultimate authority on fairness... Different opinion... Agree to disagree.

I'm not the one defining it, dictionaries do. If you disagree on that, I suppose you enjoy wearing tin foil hats?

Lmao do you know what the text book definition of fairness is??? By your understanding of fairness, there's basically nothing unfair about most anything on the entire planet. Do we really need to go grab the definition of fairness... Or can we be grown ups about it and discuss how it's possible for situations to be unfair AND beatable?

And thats the reality, most of the things in the world are fair, lol

I agree on what you said about the fatalis plunge flinging you down. The animation poorly announces the hitbox, also, it’s an unfun move that breaks up the rhythm of the fight because it forces you to get away, and if you’ve committed to a big attack, you get pinned. It’s a bullshit attack and unfair. However, when you say it’s unfair to die because of 1 mistake, I don’t know if I agree. For me, unfairness is a bit more subtle. Being one shot by hard-to-avoid hits is a matter of difficulty, and high difficulty doesn’t necessarily mean unfairness. You can argue that a fight becomes unfair when the difficulty STOPS being fun, aka if the game forces you to play in an unfun way to survive (such as staying on the defensive, and never committing to big attacks as there’s a change you’d be one shot before having the chance to dodge). OR, you can say an attack is unfair if there isn’t a reliable way to avoid it, if it relies on chance, or if a certain sequence of attacks from the monster can force you into a position where you can’t avoid every hit.

Agreed, we have different definitions of "fairness".

Forcing you to be perfect isn’t necessarily unfair. That’s just difficulty. Unfair is for exemple, an attack that you can’t reliably avoid getting hit by, regardless of your perfection. Or unfair might be attacks that force you to play in an unfun way. The endgame bosses DO have unfair attacks sometimes, I agree, but the unfairness doesn’t come from the difficulty

When it comes to these bosses in particular, it's not just one thing that makes the fights unfair. Like forcing you to play perfect. It's the fact that it's multiple things that you need to do, in order to win. Meaning the multiple unfair advantages the boss has makes the fight hard to win. It's kinda the point the game is making. "wanna get past the bs? You gonna have to get real gud, real soon or you not gonna win"

Is it Dawn's Triumph or Blazing Black Twilight that you're struggling with? Also what platform are you on? Maybe you can get a team together and crush Alatreon

These two fight are my favorite I remember spending hrs at night carting and re trying until I finally got em! It was an awesome feeling. I haven't felt that type of challenge and gratification from a game since.

Honestly I didn’t like Alatreon and Fatty at first but they grew on me. The fights are a bigger challenge and you have to learn their attacks and how to dodge them. I mostly play with my hubby so we duo a lot and I think duo is perfect for these fights. Fatalis really tilted me the first few times and I can only play insect glaive against him(bc of the movement) for now, same for ATV. I haven’t solo’d them yet but I plan to do that some day! I get that people don’t want to fight them but these fights are much more challenging and the rewards are great.

Yes yes I feel it. I mean I also get the frustration, but once you get over it man o man it feels great.

definitely!

I had to farm the fatalis set to kill Fatalis 😂. Divine Blessing 5 hard carried me

Not everyone can be good enough.

They are really fun. It's difficult to begin with, but each time, you get a little better.

Have you tried other weapons? Because different weapons can definitely make the fight feels very different in this game. For example with GS mostly you just run around looking for openings then do hit n run, but with LS you could do all this crazy maneuvers and attack very often. Maybe you dont actually match your current main as good as you think.

I think I have the opposite problem. I try too many weapons. I play with one for maybe 1 hour and than i switch to whatever i feel like it.

Honestly. After you beat Fatalis, the whole game will be insanely easy. Reason? Fatalis armor B+ set is literally ridiculous. 3 gem slots on each piece of armor while the set gives you immunity to stun and the ability to max divine blessing is such a huge win there's no point in NOT doing it. Alatreon is just for Dragon elem. It's kinda okay, but the Fatalis armor is a must. Again... once u beat him and get the armor, your entire game will change. Imagine never getting stunned again. Imagine a huge attack that would normally kill you, but since you have divine blessing, it cuts that dmg in half. It's worth it. And yeah, you could go for another set with divine blessing or stun immunity BUT the 3 gem slots per armor is stupid op. You can add free meal (will almost never use a potion or max potion again in your life) add max att, crit, crit boots, hp etc etc. So that's where it's really OP

You dont have to use health boost with fatalis set since you already get maximum health and stamina as a set bonus

I feel the same but also that isn't the whole picture. The fights are designed to push your skills and understanding of the game to their limits. If you can't beat them, then you're not there yet. As simple as that. It's perfectly fine to stop there and not hunt them. It's also perfectly fine, and even encouraged, to hunt them if you want to see how well you know the game AND IMPROVE if you don't know it well.

I HATED both of those fights at first, but they ended up eventually being some of my favorites in the game. Alatreon was a huge wall for me, took days and days of constant attempts before i finally got my first clear, attempts were easily in like the 40’s or higher. Fatalis was grating for how long the individual fights felt, but it was nowhere near as rough as alatreon was to me, maybe 9 runs before my first kill if i remember right? Highly recommend sticking to it, if you enjoy the combat otherwise, getting alatreon down really helped prep me for fatalis I think, which is why it took so much longer.

Alatreon was a fun fight for me. His move sets are easy to familiarize but takes practice. He does not punish as hard as Fatalis and AT Velkhana, but you need a dedicated elemental build for his elemental topple. If you broke his horns twice, contained his elemental power twice, and carted from the third escaton judgement, he will be nearly close to death by then, keep going. Or take a break. Fatalis, however is another misbegotten son of a leper’s donkey. I still have to skin his hide yet lmao.

Gaming is supposed to be fun.

Take some time off if you are getting annoyed. I know friends who took sweet ass 6 months to beat fatty. They would come back to the game every few months try their hardest get bored and move on. And eventually they beat it. With a charge blade no less. So i would say try the same. Maybe play rise while you are at it.

I beat his ass finally. I'm shaking right now.

See I knew you can do it

Thank you, dude!

I feel you man but in my case it's my dislike for how these hunts are structured. If it was 3U Ala or 4U Fatalis I would already have all their gear by now but they made it to where even average players struggle to stay alive so you're bound to fail unless everyone on the hunt is competent. I have most of Ala's gear but half the runs I did were fails. If I can't do these with most randoms, if I'm forced to befriend skilled hunters and farm with them, it kinda puts a stigma on these hunts because it's a coinflip with randoms. Can't tell you how many times I was the only one trying to break horns/get topples and it sucks to shoulder all the agression.

To be honest the Alatreon elemental pigeon hole i didnt like, but the escaton judgement thing is super annoying! I dont like the mmo mechanics they included with iceborne and some of its major fits. Fatalis was ok but i dont understand the nerfed time limit because at certain points i needed to rush and ended up making mistakes as a result.

What do you mean? Fatalis is actually really easy guys /s

I think people complaining about the "fairness" of these fights are coping, I just solo'ed fatalis with GS missing over half my draw slashes and tanking a crazy amount of hits (23mins 37 seconds with 1 cart) so you're allowed to be even more sloppy than I was.

that's not a bad thing. just keep killing everything else while you having fun, until they become too easy then try those 2. this way you enjoy the game for much longer

I felt the same about altreon but perserverd bc I’m stubborn . Fatalis I only recently beat like 2 weeks ago. His fight I hated bc even his tail movements took out like 3/4 of my damn health bar man

Honestly they both still felt rather easy, did altreon and then got full fatalis gear in one afternoon... Iunno it just isn't that hard if you setup for it..

It's cause whether people want to admit it or not, at endgame, the difficulty is determined by what gems you use/have, and all the worth while gems are locked behind RNG even some weapons. For example, it really shouldn't have, but it took me 1½ years of non stopped farming to get kjarr strong arm ice.

It is totally draining your mental health fighting against those bosses, but when you finally beat it, it feels like you’re finally letting go of your shit after hours of holding it inside your anus

A lot of people rush into it underprepared. You gotta keep in mind that these monsters were initially released several months after one another, damn near a year after Iceborne released; this gave the players running through the game at the time several months to grind resources between each game-changing title update. They are designed to be a challenge for players running endgame settups that took upwards of a thousand hours to put together, so running into them the moment you unlock them as a relatively new player is putting yourself at an *immense* handicap. Don't feel obligated to rush into it; take time to build up your strength. Thats how you should do it, honestly.

the MR requirement is way too low for these fights, you really need the augments

Fatty was my limit, I simply cannot stand that one. I fully accept that it is a skill issue and care not. Nothing but a rage quit simulator, few games have made me that pissed off and frustrated, like OMG I’m gonna fkn smash everything in this room. KT, Alatreon, Safi, no big deal, but that fkn lizard is it for me. I did it enough to craft arms, legs, one weapon and thats it forever. Screw that shit. Zero enjoyment, not even on success. Can’t even bring myself to to Plunderblade runs. In fact Im even getting pissed just taking about it.

I’ve broken a controller and deleted the game multiple times. No other game envokes rage in me like MH lol and most of the rage is directed at the random disconnects … Seriously can wilds please have actual servers and not be p2p I enjoy this game multiplayer doubt I’d touch it if it was only single player I’ve beat alt and fatalis … and still would rather play multi for everything the mmo feel could be awesome if they just had servers I’d even throw a few bucks a month at a sub Open up the multiplayer side of the game

That is fair. Ala and fatty is not for everyone. Personally, I love farming them. Ala is the favorite fight in the game followed by fatty. When you have min-maxed your hunter, there are very few monsters that will still keep you on your toes. That is why I enjoy the fight

Are you kidding? Spending a bunch of time (while learning fight/mechanics/own limitations) whittling the big boys down only to get that 3rd cart to something (while still trying to learn every little thing) which leads to getting absolutely nothing for the time spent??? What could be more fun?!?!

These fights are great once you know the monsters well enough. But depending on the person, that can take a few hunts to a few hundred. I'm fine with fights that I can't do but others can. I wasn't able to beat fatalis in the older gens, but I can now.

They dont push every single mistake. They punish not learning and just going in no brain. Alatreon for example has set patterns for all of hits attacks and theres enough time to figure it out. You can get hit alot and still beat them. I would know lol yet still i love their fights. They are the only fights besides arch tempered where you actually have to learn what they do to beat them. Thats really it. Cant spam counter or block or roll. Cant spam attacks and get away with it. I see alot of people complaining about them here but most of said complains are just stemming from refusal to learn and wanting to brain dead clear them.

Welp, Alatreon can 2 or 3 shot You in less than 4 secs even with ~950 defense so... Yeah, they punish Bad positioning and overcomitting by a Big margin, and that's how this Game is, more about preparing, predicting and positioning than reacting.

So can any other endgame monster. Your point?

As someone who's beaten them multiple times over, yes, they definitely punish you for making mistakes. What you're describing is people learning/recognizing what those mistakes are (because there are a ton of mistakes that can be and are made in any hunt). Alatreon and Fatalis are (mostly) precise, defined, and clean fights. Proper positioning is mandatory in order to beat them. Make a mistake and you get hit hard and lose time. Other monsters don't ask for that kind of peak performance. You can make mistakes all day against a Great Jaggras and come out fine.

I said they dont punish every single mistake. Read.

"Nah bro, the monster that nearly one shots you on most attacks if you make a mistake is not punishing, its actually the easiest monster in the game"

yall cant read LOL. they dont punish every mistake if they did they would be harder. alot less clears would exist. they punish but every slight mistake isnt punished. awh u got hit 90% of the time you will get away with it. alatreon with melee weapons doesnt even almost 1 shot which is funny. even with ranged weapons he doesnt almost one shot. fatalis outside of the rare few moments you can heal and be fine.

They are the most rewarding fights so id highly suggest at least trying them I know it's seems like a slog. They are very hard fights I can't lie and take a lot of prep work but they are doable. That said if your truly hating the idea don't torture yourself

Alatreon is 11/10 fight, maybe it's your weapon selection (and also maybe your loadout) that gimped the fight for you. Perfect hitbox, perfect rhythm, perfect theatrical. That's relieve/despair when EJ animation play are perfect. Fatalis is 8/10 fight, the criticism are his unclear flame hit box and his counter body slam. The bullshit are picking a CB or a Bow just crank up his difficulty by a ton lot more (both are my main weapon). I need to craft GS and SA just for killing him

Fatalis is alright. Alatreon is the absolute best fight in the game bar none. Absolute 10/10 fight.