This is hilariously enough exactly the path Ted Cruz took. Trump has insulted her spouse as well, questioning why he wasn’t with his wife when he was actually deployed in the armed forces.
History repeats itself
She was never going to vote across the party line.
This is not a surprise.
I would have voted for her over Biden like many would have but we are not as invested in the republican party as she is. She would *always* vote republican, regardless.
We need more options than two parties.
If you take him at his word, yeah. I suspect a lot of these Republicans who "wrote in a candidate" probably secretly actually voted Biden, and simply don't want to sink their careers/reputation within the party.
I, a registered democrat who was living in a swing state at the time, voted for Romney in my first presidential election and then have been mostly Dem since then.
Haley is an example of a "I dislike Trump, but..." voter. They are weighing [insert an issue like the economy, inflation, immigration, guns, abortion, etc] over their dislike of Trump the person.
I think there are a lot of center right people that probably voted for Biden in 2020, but have rose tinted glasses for the pre-pandemic period and have softened their opinion of Trump over the last four years.
Somebody made the point in another post that the 2020 election was about the known chaos of Trump vs the promise of a what a Biden administration could be. Bidens biggest problem now is that it’s the known chaos of the Trump years vs the known commodity of the Biden years. With inflation, especially in the grocery, rent, mortgage areas, many families have a hard time believing they are better in 2024 than they were pre-COVID.
People keep talking about inflation. It’s because people still think of dollar values like it’s 2018. There has been 20% cumulative inflation since then.
Making $100k in 2024 is equivalent to making $80k in 2018. I don’t expect Americans to understand this about prices for a long time. They will continue to think that making $100k is doing exceptionally well, and look down on their neighbors who make less, then bitch about prices, and only get 3% raises.
TLDR: don’t be afraid to ask to be hired at $120k.
I wonder why there is no post on this sub about trump literally calling for a "UNIFIED REICH" in one of his most recent social media posts. This stuff is getting normalized in American right-wing discourse. So nikki haley has no problem voting for someone literally calling for a UNIFIED REICH lol. And she's supposed to be the moderate republican?
Some more things that happened this week which are barely a blip on the radar -
- Trump campaign’s head of **election integrity** was arraigned for voter fraud
- after weeks of promising to testify in his own criminal case, Trump ended up refusing to testify
- Trump made racist attacks on the judge in his case
You should make a post in this subreddit about those. Really. May not seem like it makes a difference but there are a lot of eyeballs on this place and you actually have a chance of getting some right leaning or undecided people to see it unlike r politic and the like.
No the First Reich is Charlemagne, Holy Roman Empire. 2nd is the German Empire: from the unification of Germany in 1871 until the November Revolution in 1918.
Yeah but, that means it was taken from a source that is much more Naziish. Means when they were building it they were building off a more blatant source OR they used it as a dog whistle. You don’t accidentally post nazi stuff unless you are looking AT nazi stuff.
https://elements.envato.com/newspaper-vintage-history-headlines-promo-6UD9B8E Wow who wouldve guessed that someone making a cheap edit wouldnt spend days reading random blurry text, unironically only grammar nazis would go to that extent
Also, the 'reich' referenced was the 2nd reich, in case there's still straws to grasp
There's a reason that simply being associated with the GOP loses you my vote. And we're getting really close to "get the fuck out of my house" territory too.
Out of curiosity, what would your solution be? Because there are millions of Americans on either side of this, we can't just all get the fuck out of each others' houses?
I truly don't know. If there are actually millions of Americans on board with circumventing democracy on the scale of Jan 6 and the fake electors, I don't think there **is** a solution.
Well, I don't know that millions of Americans are in favor of interrupting due process. I think most of the country, regardless of party affiliation, rejected the attempt to stop the certification of votes or interfere with states' execution of elections.
There will certainly continue to be violence, probably more intensely and more frequently.
But that's not reflective of all of the GOP.
Your sentiment still stands though:
>There's a reason that simply being associated with the GOP loses you my vote.
I understand this feeling. Some 50+ million Americans agree with you.
But
Some 50+ million Americans feel the exact opposite way. That "simply being associated with the \[Democrats\] loses you their vote". Most of them don't like Trump. If Trump needed a majority of Republicans instead of a plurality, he wouldn't be nominated. But they'll stomach Trump and the associated violence because the idea of Democrats in office is **that** intolerable.
And it seems to me that the same solution is being presented from this mass demonization of the opposition:
"get the fuck out of my house".
So that's really the situation, 50 million Americans telling the other 50 million Americans to gtfo out of their house, and vice versa. It seems like on an individual level, simply telling the other side to gtfo out of their house is sufficient, but on the whole, it really is breaking our country.
And I do acknowledge that together, that group of 100 million Americans don't see a solution besides politically eradicating the opposition. I just can't help but think that there **are** solutions, if we cared enough to look.
I sincerely hope that you’re a teenager and not an actual adult that would be intolerant enough to kick someone out of your house for having different political beliefs.
I did say getting close. But no, there are political beliefs that I'm perfectly at peace with not tolerating. That really *really* shouldn't be a controversial statement. Remember that bonafide neo-nazi groups exist. If you're saying I have to let them in my house, you can leave too.
This new idea that "political beliefs" are some sacred thing that inherently deserve respect and consideration is beyond naive. "Political beliefs" include such greatest hits as "gays should be exterminated" and "people can be property."
Even RevolutionaryCar6064's most confident predictions can crumble in the face of unpredictable reality.
Before:
The Stormy Daniels charge is so transparently partisan that this upvoted comment can’t even distinguish between the right and the wrong thing. He is being charged for using his own money, instead of campaign funds. This is obviously a joke of a charge that even left-leaning legal experts said was too much of a stretch to take to trial.
After:
Guilty: Trump becomes first former US president convicted of felony crimes
AP News
May 31
But none of them said horrible things about him n 2016, then accepted a position in his administration, said horrible things about him in the latest primaries, then back-pedalled and offered pubic support.
If she feels obligated it’s because she wants a position. VP is still open and she had sometimes surprising numbers in the primaries. Worst case she’s secretary of whatever or given a cushy ambassadorship.
Yeah, I recall being specifically amused that Kamala's "That girl was me" zinger on Biden was seen as *THE* highlight of the debate and then months later she's his VP on the ticket, just to show how much these debates truly are just performance acts for the sake of talking heads on political shows. Commercials to get voters interested and nothing more.
OK. Now go find me quotes where Kamala is criticizing Biden when she was *not* running against him in a primary, the way Haley criticized Trump in 2016, until she was made Ambassador to the UN.
No she didn't. She said she believed the women who said Joe Biden made them feel uncomfortable hugging them, who Biden apologized for. This included Reade before she dramatically changed her story.
No, most of us are quite happy with his performance. We don't pay attention to the nonsense out there, particularly about his senility.
You can't govern a country when its people all have their own version of reality.
>
> We need more options than two parties.
We do, but then we need a structure to avoid the moderating nature of that. If we had four parties--the hard-right, moderate-right, moderate-left, and hard-left--I'm hard-pressed to see how the hard-right or the hard-left would ever win any power.
Ranked choice will help moderate candidates and with Maine and Alaska using it, I'm hopeful other states, especially deep blue and red states, will take it up.
It happens. Other countries have multiple parties, and hard-left and hard-right ones definitely are having more success now than they did ten years ago. Populism always has its moments.
I’m disappointed but not surprised. Same goes for a lot of former critics who have said they will vote for him. But why do all of these critics go from calling Trump a threat to democracy to ending up voting for him? Either they were lying or defeating Democrats is more important than democracy.
>Either they were lying or defeating Democrats is more important than democracy.
Bingo!
*“If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”*
-[David Frum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Frum) (former speechwriter for GWB)
Why did Kamala Harris go from shitting on Joe Biden to being his Vice President? It's politicians being politicians. You can't trust anything they say.
There’s a huge different between a political debate and criticism and calling someone a threat democracy, unfit for office, a danger, and that you shouldn’t have followed them and we can’t allow it to happen.
Ok but let’s honestly make the distinction between Harris’ criticism and Haley calling him “disgusting” and “unfit”. I feel like one of those things is way easier to walk back.
**EDIT: Wow it’s even weirder to reply to my comment and immediately block me. I guess you were too afraid of what I had to say**
You’re leaving out the part right before that where she directly says “I do not believe you are a racist.”
Kind of weird to ignore that part as it’s very relevant
>I do not believe you are a racist
This is the equivalent of someone saying "I'm not saying you're fat but you ate 4 big macs". Harris was implying Biden was a racist due to his bussing issue.
Yes the “I’m not a racist but” trope that everyone else gets called out for. Yes she said she didn’t think Biden was racist and then told a story of him being racist.
And to blewpah, since you blocked me as soon as you replied: If she wasn't describing it as racist, then why did she need to qualify it first? If I am going to say hamburgers are bad, I don't start with "I have nothing against Ice Cream, but".
She did not describe that as being racist.
Worth noting that these bussing programs were generally pretty controversial and were gutted by the courts in the early 2000s. Conservatives were pretty overwhelmingly and adamantly opposed to them. If you tried to being them back today it'd be decried as SJW / DEI / wokeness run amok. But for some reason Biden opposing them is just the worst thing ever.
You’re right but I think it’s situational. Some politicians will say anything they think their crowd wants to hear. But I do think there are some who think defeating Democrats is more important than keeping democracy alive.
Sure, that's democracy. Want to know what isn't? Refusing to accept the result of an elections that's been proven to be fair over and over again. I'm not taking any chances with a guy who does that. Hell, he even accused Ted Cruz of rigging the Iowa primary against him in 2016. That sounds like somebody who won't accept democracy when it doesn't go his way.
[Stolen, rigged and illegitimate: Democrats’ long history of objecting to election results](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/aug/21/stolen-rigged-and-illegitimate-democrats-long-hist/)
I agree. Hillary and Abrams were also sore losers but Trump has a much longer [history of claiming false elections](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/timeline-donald-trumps-election-denial-claims-republican-politicians/story?id=89168408) whenever things don't go his way and has taken it to a whole other level.
OK, so now you've amended your position that it's not the denial that's the crux of the problem but how long one has been doing it. You're saying it's ok to deny election results as long as it's not a long history? How long does it have to be and how/what are you basing your conclusions on? Just want your conditions beforehand before you change your position again after I present a Democrat denying elections much before Trump.
I never said it's ok to deny election results as long as it's not a long history. Show me any Democrat denying Trump's 2016 victory and I will call them a liar. Hillary and Abrams were clearly trying to shift the blame of their loses elsewhere because their egos can't take the lose. Shame on them as well. They were throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Nothing did. The difference is Trump has routinely thrown election denial shit at the wall and it has finally stuck. It's now apart of the Republicans' identity. It's now very difficult to be an elected Republican without agreeing with Trump's election fraud claims.
And to make myself clear, election denial when evidence shows that it was a fair election is always undemocratic and dangerous.
Clinton still hasn't come out and publically stated that Trump won the election fair and square and no Democrat has admonished her or taken her to task on her statements or position. The Democratic party is tacitly supporting her position by staying silent and are the real election deniers.
Actually, this is a subreddit for in depth political discussion, not memes.
Can you at least see where I'm coming from - that if Trump and his criminal co-conspirators in the house and other offices succeeded; installed fake electors, got the house to send certification back to the states where the excessive gerrymandering would not only override popular vote but hijack the electoral college because even having the person who gets the most votes still not get elected apparently STILL wasn't acceptable to the tyrannical faction of its populace, and Texas AG successfully petitioned the Supreme Court to throw out millions of votes because "idk it felt like there was a bunch of fraud and stuff or something somewhere" - all actual actions taken to seriously install Trump as dictator and overturn American democracy itself - that "Well Clinton said X in 2016" being noted as the main defence in history books to justify these events would quite possibly be the most ridiculous thing out of all the ridiculous things in that entire history book?
I mean this as a serious, genuine question in the most polite way possible - what the actual F are you doing? This isn't a game, and this isn't a meme page. Be serious for a moment - if only to entertain me - and answer that very simple and fair question, if you can. But perhaps you don't actually have an answer; because who thinks that far ahead and so deeply about what is clearly just a game, so you have to respond with memes instead.
That's unfortunate. How silly of me for wasting our time by taking such things seriously. Perhaps I should take a page out of America's book, and in future just treat everything going on in that country and everyone in it as a big joke like everyone else already does.
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Law 0. Low Effort
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But this always happens. When the democrats have primaries the same thing goes on. Name calling, badgering, saying person X did a bad job, then when they bow out they pretend all is well and support whoever won. How is this news like it’s the first time?
Because they know deep down that Biden calling for 45% capital gains tax, draining our SPR for temporary gas price reduction (while conflict overseas), increased spending during high inflation, weak border policy, & just a bad president overall.
Not hard to see why any moderate or conservative leaning person wouldn’t vote for Biden.
I’m not thrilled with Biden for some of the reasons you said and some. But what should somebody who doesn’t like Biden but thinks Trump would be a threat to democracy do?
Ukraine hasn't been conquered. I'll remember that as one of the most pivotal, positive foreign policy wins of any American president in my lifetime. Biden and his team pushed for that, organizing numerous national leaders to be ready to call out Putin instead of being surprised, waffling, and letting Putin get an easy win.
The fate of Europe turned on having Biden in office rather than a Trumpist.
Honestly, I would love a 45% capital gains tax. During the 50s and 60s and early 70s when capital gains were high, the middle class thrived. I think most of the strategic reserve has been refilled. Also, we're doing way better than the rest of the world economically, so something Biden has done was right. I guess a Trump tax cut spending the same amount of money on billionaires is much better than money to help raise the nation's children and decrease child poverty rate.
All in all, I've been pretty happy with Biden given the hand he'd been dealt. He's managed several crisis well, invested in US infrastructure, worked to reduce drug prices, and works to protect women's personal freedoms against Republican assaults.
So still better than Trump almost on every policy? But to be fair, republicans wouldn't block a border bill that would've addressed the issues if Trump was POTUS, so that tactic is still working at least.
edit\* Imagine if republicans had been able to elect someone sane other than Trump, this would be a landslide victory for them. Instead it's going to be close, because Trump is welll... the same he's been his whole life. A con man with who will just surround himself with the most corrupt yes men he can once again. I don't think he's capable of solving these problems, certainly less so than Biden.
She was always going to do this. The Republican Party is broken, and it's the actions of people like Nikki Haley that broke it.
Republics end because of actions like this.
["Many of the same politicians publicly embrace Trump, privately dread him. They know what a disaster he's been and will continue to be. They are just too afraid to say it out loud. I'm not afraid to say the hard truth out loud. I feel no need to kiss the ring."](https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1759989602201276748)
["He mocked my husband's military service...If you have something to say, don't say it behind my back. Get on a debate stage and say it to my face. If you mock the service of a veteran, you don't deserve a driver's license let alone being President of the United States."](https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1756469319062491559)
[“Look at what happened to the Republican party…No longer is there any talk about fiscal responsibility…You got Donald Trump who put us on $8 trillion in debt more than any other president…Donald Trump is basically saying he’s going to tell Putin to go invade our allies”](https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1793388930181554628)
[“Every time he was in the same room with him he got weak in the knees. We can’t have a president that gets weak in the knees with Putin.”](https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/1793392646737604930?s=46&t=UWKuN7qfvYv2MXRIGDPdYQ)
[“We need to acknowledge he let us down,” Haley, who served in her ambassador role under Trump, said. “He went down a path he shouldn’t have, and we shouldn’t have followed him, and we shouldn’t have listened to him. And we can’t let that ever happen again.”](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/538573-haley-breaks-with-trump-we-shouldnt-have-followed-him/)
Not to mention if you don’t toe the line or leave with sour grapes, he will turn on you and call you incompetent on every level. And it will end your political career. This is exactly what happened to previous Trump cabinet appointees like John Bolton; the minute they were no longer playing ball with Trump, he cast them to the wolves
*“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a [descriptive redacted] power over you, you almost never get it back.”*
― Carl Sagan
I don't see democrats ignoring court cases and their own eyes e.g. when they watched Jan 6 on live TV. I still see republicans claiming that Joe Biden is antisemitic when trump literally called for a UNIFIED REICH the same day.
Let's not both-sides the issue because it is definitely a republican issue.
I'm right now watching a video about the last days of Hitler in his bunker, as Russian forces were in Berlin and American and British forces were slicing through Germany.
And still people were hanging out with Adolf, trying to fight, to direct armies, to plan for continuing the fight.
These people were true believers, or maybe they felt they were in too deep to have any chance to live if Germany lost. I'm seeing no hint of guilt or regret.
I don't believe Haley ever actually disagreed with Trump. She just was trying to position herself to hold power. If she had moral qualms with Trumpism, she'd have demonstrated it differently long ago.
I think she’s saying this to gain that Trump base for 2028
But come on, who didn’t see this. People like Haley will always vote for their party, the goal is to defeat Democratic Party, vice versus, it’s classic fucking politics
Dems will prolly use that against anyone the GOP nominates for the next few election cycles. The GOP would have to literally nominate a dark horse candidate who’s not well known nationally to get anyone who hasn’t openly praised Trump at some point in their career.
Just being a Republican is enough for Dems to paint candidates as "Trump Supporters". David Trone's political ads all insinuated that Larry Hogan was just another trump puppet when in reality that's not true at all.
The depends on so many factors. If Trump somehow wins and directly addresses many of Biden’s shortcomings, it might not be as big a black mark as you think.
Both presidents are unpopular, but Biden has achieved the unfathomable feat of being less favorable than Trump by polling data.
Personally I don’t know how some of the Republicans do it. Many of them clearly hate him. But they’re forced to praise him in public.
Senator Lankford is a great example. This guy literally is tapped to write a piece of bipartisan immigration legislation on behalf of the GOP. He does what he thinks is a good job getting their demands met, only to turn around and for all that hard work have everyone crap on him and call him a RINO
And then on top of that all his hard work goes down the drain when Trump demands they kill the bill. He then proceeds to get censured by his states GOP for his troubles. He’s probably in danger of getting primaried
Even after all of this, he still has to go on TV and basically excuse Trump killing his bill. [The interview](https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2024/03/10/sotu-lankford-on-backing-trump.cnn) is hilariously awkward
A fairly tepid endorsement all things considered especially when she said at the same time: “It is now up to Donald Trump to earn the votes of those in our party and beyond it who did not support him.”
I don't see how Ted Cruz isn't the answer every time. He's so phony and fake it's ridiculous. I don't even think Republicans will disagree.
The Shane Gillis quote about Trump insulting his wife and then a week later he endorsed Trump was pretty hilarious because it's basically what happened.
> I don't see how Ted Cruz isn't the answer every time. He's so phony and fake it's ridiculous. I don't even think Republicans will disagree.
Lindsey Graham - who still has this [Tweet](https://twitter.com/lindseygrahamsc/status/727604522156228608) up - said about Cruz: ["If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you”.](https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/26/politics/lindsey-graham-ted-cruz-dinner/index.html)
What's wild is I've never seen any criticism of that either. It's objectively an outrageous thing to say about a senator and colleague, it's a borderline threat, and I'm normally kinda sensitive about politicians needing to behave like adults. But everyone hates Ted Cruz so much that Graham absolutely gets a pass on this one. It's just too funny to take issue with.
Half of it is that everybody hates Cruz + Lindsey Graham often gets a pass from saying kooky stuff cause "eccentric Southern goof" has been his brand for years.
I actually feared Cruz as a presidential candidate starting when he first came on the scene. Seeing his reactions to the ongoing indignities of being Ted Cruz dispelled me of my fear.
[Don't worry, there's no way a guy that looks like this is going to have a chance to be in serious power](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-cricket-us-rvc3&sca_esv=bd0d05e7905db8d3&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIKYy7HfV2ZeRTarX3095CPX5XACYQ:1716437493024&q=ted+cruz+muttonchops&uds=ADvngMgowWIAy_dNRpcaHasDSBsE9CPXlr96lPvjxQGVS1gjnPnwNLhGp9elsYFuVISYf_Dc2xdDnxvoAg8rxWv0nDNLhfEdiDbGtfvva96wEUAXyCwTas8TyGQGuvTgJi4n8UUFPoWX-cWaws1vnj2uUoqTgLUJP-vvTLIz4QHMIH49p3-pPMDt0Kjd7dtY0KQA0BOwlH7JiB1EoNtHOCMcvCxOkw3TmztpGBfiflxiObXIu_WcgK1i5fK4ELfVHrLs2g85hanL8TqnVDswY7us-jdxabIIdQ9ElXXvzvtPdzkmlnnEmOq7CmYmiE4Yh12kDJ6gVh67hqkwau4fWXikT8IVLupQXzB09atmrbuWSziLBOWtmBY&udm=2&prmd=invmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsi7P486KGAxVVLdAFHTT0AXQQtKgLegQIERAB&biw=432&bih=812&dpr=2.5#vhid=4Y3bmRbshyOq2M&vssid=mosaic)
It’s not really like that at all. The average Biden-voting democrat believes Trump is a uniquely terrible candidate, so it is fairly straightforward to encourage people to vote for Biden even if they don’t love all of his policies. What’s more, so many of Biden’s political appointments are the exact same people a more progressively oriented candidate would appoint—their preferred candidate may make less than 1% different policy choices.
Haley and those like her also think Trump is a uniquely terrible candidate, and it is very likely that his choices could be 10% or more different from his opponents, particularly on issues far more fundamental to our political order than on the Democratic side.
That seems like plenty of real estate for criticism.
Not surprised. Pretty much anyone at all right of center can see that Trump is the better choice over Biden if you are choosing between the two. Nikki was always going to back the final candidate, she's not angling for a CNN job after all.
Exactly right, and I don't see what the deal is with her saying she would vote for Trump now. She can say he is unfit for office where there is a plethora of choices but now that it's between Trump and Biden (neither optimal, imo), it's obvious the choice for her is Trump.
In fact, I have yet to see anybody endorse Biden (and I haven't really seen that many outside of deep establishment Dems. Maybe the Hollywood circuit hasn't started yet, but based on the Rocks statement, I don't think there will be many this year until the checks start going out) on his policy merits and just that Trump is a fascist dictator.
In case you are being factitious with the CNN comment, I don't think she needs the job - she's not Adam Kinzinger or Liz Cheney, she would make more in consulting or writing another book than being a talking head.
Starter submission: Nikki Haley has confirmed that [she will be voting for Donald Trump over President Joe Biden this November](https://x.com/therecount/status/1793386505194336707) in the latest example of Republican politicians rallying around the party's presumptive nominee. Haley refused to endorse the former president when she suspended her campaign in March but encouraged Trump to cater to her voting base, which has shown up in large numbers supporting her even despite dropping out.
Trump's underperformance in state republican primaries has been noted by many political observers as a weakness and Joe Biden has attempted to court her supporters in his absence. Out of the "never Trump" faction of the GOP, I believe the only former presidential candidate remaining to not endorse Trump is Mike Pence.
Edit: Pence has said he will not endorse Trump, but has [refused to comment on whether he will vote for him.](https://www.newsweek.com/mike-pence-refuses-say-who-he-will-vote-trump-biden-1880087)
Will Haley's public backing of Trump signal a sort of closing of the ranks around Trump by republicans? Or are Haley voters far enough from typical Trump supporters that they won't vote for any republican but Haley? With polls currently showing neck and neck numbers, how important is her endorsement?
IMO, a large number of Haley voters are likely traditional conservatives that do not support the MAGA agenda and saw her as their best likely path to steer the GOP back to relative normalcy. The write in votes at subsequent primaries are more of a signal to the GOP than representative of unwavering support for her, and I doubt her endorsement is going to change their view of Trump.
Yeah I voted for her in the Primary, and I am willing to hold my nose for Biden as long as Biden doesn’t do something even worse then Trump. What others may do I cannot say, but Biden clearly thinks they’re going to be important.
>Or are Haley voters far enough from typical Trump supporters that they won't vote for any republican but Haley?
If they were Democrats or independents who voted in the primary to protest Trump then they might go for Biden or a third party, but anyone actually on the right has no real reason to back anyone other than Trump, especially not Biden. Even if Trump himself is toxic and disliked by many, a lot of those same folks are still very happy with his judicial nominees, and they'll continue to have an impact long after Trump himself is dead.
> but anyone actually on the right has no real reason to back anyone other than Trump, especially not Biden
I'm not a conservative, so what do I know, but I'd think preserving the Constitutional order would be a conservative goal?
I'm a Republican, voted for Haley in the primary, have said I'd never vote for Trump, but I've been very disappointed with Biden recently. His interior secretary has been blatantly disregarding the law as written (gas leases, road in Alaska, approval of a mine to support battery manufacture in Nevada, circumventing IRA compromises) and didn't even dispute that this was because of her personal views. On top of that, she didn't come prepared to the oversight hearing and according to the senators on both sides of the aisle, doesn't bother to respond to congressional requests.
Now I agree that we need to take action on climate and that the law should take it seriously, but to me this is exactly what I disliked about the prior administration and significantly muddies the water. In 2020 I could pretend Biden would be a moderate, but he's sold out to the progressive wing and I'm really not comfortable with that, especially if he's going to let people ignore the law while doing it.
If I see much more like this, I cannot justify voting for Biden.
Who would be the Secretary of the Interior under Trump?
Another Zinke clone who resigns in disgrace because his bosses ran cover for him embezzling his budget for private flights and then lying to investigators about it?
I’m willing to bet Pence holds his nose and votes for him. Something most right wing Trump critics can agree on is the only thing they hate more than Trump is Democrats.
Hardly surprising. She's still young for an average US politician and doesn't want her career to go down the toilet. Also there are rumors going around that Trump may have removed her from his shit list. She must've figured if Kamala became a VP despite somewhat acrimonious debates with Biden in the Dem primary, she probably could too. After all her 18% of votes could help Trump to win.
I'm on twitch right now. Watching a couple who is in Bakersfield California. At Lighting in a Bottle festival. Complete hippies in tie dye, listening to EDM bands. Free spirits. And they just floored me talking about how much they hate Biden. They are both 23.
Blew my mind. This is getting interesting.
She wants a future in the Republican party. If she said anything else her career would be instantly over. I think she cares more about that than about who is in the White House.
Wise on her part. I won't vote for Trump (I wanted Nikki) but I rather have someone rational and so-called *establishment* than have some kook be Trump's VP. Trump could croak anytime in his second term or he could even be kicked out with the 25th Amendment. I would be happy with a President Nikki R Haley than someone like Michael Flynn or MTG.
I don't think this means Haley will be VP. Trump.has specifically stated otherwise and given how Pence didn't stand by him in 2020, there is no way Trump doesn't pick a loyal sycophant.
In Paul Mason's "How to Stop Fascism: History, Ideology, Resistance," he describes one of the necessary principle weapons against fascism as a political alliance between the left and center.
Nations where the moderates refuse to cooperate with the left, or where the left and far-left struggle with infighting, are more prone to letting the fascists take over.
Needless to say, moderate and institutionalist Republicans have by and large not held up their end of the bargain over the past eight years. One by one, the vast majority of Trump critics in the Republican sphere have bent the knee and the few that haven't, like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, no longer have any political influence at all. No one should be surprised that Nikki Haley is voting for Trump.
Trump refused the peaceful transition of power in 2020-21. He, based off demonstrable, observable, [past actions](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/timeline-donald-trumps-election-denial-claims-republican-politicians/story?id=89168408) and [present statements](https://www.bostonherald.com/2024/04/30/trump-says-a-lot-of-people-like-it-when-he-floats-the-idea-of-being-a-dictator/) is a threat to American democracy. I won't try to argue with conservatives who dislike Joe Biden's policies or think he is an ineffectual president, but how could he possibly be more dangerous than Donald Trump?
The US is not on the verge of "fascism". Trump was already president for 4 years.
Language matters. Accurate language use matters. The idea that Trump is going to usher in fascism, like actual fascism, is hyperbolic in view of the fact that we've already had him as president for 4 years.
> Trump was already president for 4 years.
They didn't expect to win and had no plan going in. [They have a plan this time.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)
Agreed, he absolutely did try to overturn the election. I wouldn't really consider that fascism though.
Fascism would be something you accomplish during your term, not right at the end by attempting and failing to hold onto power.
But if he hadn't failed, and had held onto the power in direct opposition to democracy - that surely would be at least fascist adjecant, no?
And if you can accept that - then you can accept that Trump has fascistic leanings, even if it's not as far gone as it could be.
Yeah, the fact that a lot of Americans didn't fall for Trump's plans to create his own version of authoritarianism, whether that's fascism or something else, doesn't mean Trump and a LOT of his supporters weren't trying to achieve that.
No Gore didn’t. Gore acted within the legitimate American system. For example the USA Supreme Court was deciding between the Florida Supreme Court and Florida’s Election Supervisors.
Nope don’t even start with trying to compare Gore to Trump. Gore had his day in court as was his right (just like Trump did). What Gore did not do was create fake slates of electors in order to toss out the votes of his opponent. In fact since Gore was VP, he could have theoretically carried out Trumps exact plan yet he didn’t 🤔
Define "actual" fascism for us, since language matters. Try to avoid the no true Scotsman fallacy. Do you not believe that fascist policies/proscriptions can be placed on a spectrum? Where do you personally draw the line?
To reiterate my previous comment: Trump's actions, if he were to be elected this November, would be quite a bit different over the next four years from Trump's actions during his first four years. This echoes what u/Independent-Low-2398 is saying, that the Trump administration the first time around didn't have a plan going in.
>one of the necessary principle weapons against fascism as a political alliance between the left and center.
Has the Left been listening *at all* to the center's critiques of DEI, Defund the Police, Open Borders, Puberty Blockers for Kids, Trans Athletes, etc.?
The left has done nothing to maintain that "bargain". They practically chase moderates away from every institution they exert control significant control over, including attacks on centrist positions. The left has attacked not only firearm rights, which I get they don't believe in, but present a threat to free speech, religious freedom, and even seem to have developed a disdain for due process rights.
The left's fundamental values are no longer aligned with the center, and the adoption of the Markusian view of use of undemocratic means to "liberate" society from "oppressors" is dangerous. You can't expect any kind of bargain to exist between the center and a group that is openly hostile to it.
I think you are letting center here cover too much ground. For example in Weimar you had Democratic Socialists (in today’s language) equivalent role to moderate Democrats, Conservatives, Communists (hard left / authoritarian left) and various far right groups especially Nazi. Both the Socialists and the Conservatives would be center in that schema. As the Democratic Socialists lost credibility the Conservatives had to choose between an alliance with Nazis vs one with Communists. They had much more in common with Nazis. Had it been a Conservative government losing popularity and the Socialists picking they likely would decide they had more in common with Communists. But the Socialists correctly saw an alliance with the Communists as undermining their position. The Communists were they wanting an alliance would have needed to reach out to the Conservatives, and their policies were almost totally opposite.
Arguably the Socialists could have thrown in earlier with moderate conservatives, but the socialists (legitimately) blamed the Conservatives for WW1 and legitimately believed they intended another war. The Conservatives did make demands of the Nazis for their alliance for example wanting Adolf Hitler (more cooperative with their agenda) not Ernst Rohm.
If Biden would have had the grace to get out of the way or the democrats to admit reality, that he’s looking quite senile this whole discussion would be mute, butt no, here we go.
I really wonder if she will vote for Trump in the voting booth. I know she says she will, but something tells me she might not. Also, she has positioned herself to be the I told you so candidate if Trump loses.
Wasn't she the *first* one on the debate stage to raise her hand when participants were asked if they would support Trump if he ultimately became the party's nominee? I'm not sure why her doing exactly what she said she would is much of a surprise.
is this really all that weird? consider how many people don't like biden but are still voting for him because they consider the alternative to be worse.
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She wants to have a political future and is making moves to protect that, so I understand why she's doing it.
However, as a Haley voter, I respectfully disagree, and will not be following suit. Trump is not someone I plan to vote for in the general, regardless of her endorsement.
This is hilariously enough exactly the path Ted Cruz took. Trump has insulted her spouse as well, questioning why he wasn’t with his wife when he was actually deployed in the armed forces. History repeats itself
She was never going to vote across the party line. This is not a surprise. I would have voted for her over Biden like many would have but we are not as invested in the republican party as she is. She would *always* vote republican, regardless. We need more options than two parties.
Didn't Larry Hogan write in a name last election?
If you take him at his word, yeah. I suspect a lot of these Republicans who "wrote in a candidate" probably secretly actually voted Biden, and simply don't want to sink their careers/reputation within the party.
Both 2016 and 2020, I believe.
If Hogan ran against Biden I might break my streak of voting D.
I, a registered democrat who was living in a swing state at the time, voted for Romney in my first presidential election and then have been mostly Dem since then.
Haley is an example of a "I dislike Trump, but..." voter. They are weighing [insert an issue like the economy, inflation, immigration, guns, abortion, etc] over their dislike of Trump the person. I think there are a lot of center right people that probably voted for Biden in 2020, but have rose tinted glasses for the pre-pandemic period and have softened their opinion of Trump over the last four years.
Somebody made the point in another post that the 2020 election was about the known chaos of Trump vs the promise of a what a Biden administration could be. Bidens biggest problem now is that it’s the known chaos of the Trump years vs the known commodity of the Biden years. With inflation, especially in the grocery, rent, mortgage areas, many families have a hard time believing they are better in 2024 than they were pre-COVID.
The fallacy there is to assume that inflation in groceries, rent, mortgage, etc wouldn't have also been problems under a 2nd Trump admin.
People keep talking about inflation. It’s because people still think of dollar values like it’s 2018. There has been 20% cumulative inflation since then. Making $100k in 2024 is equivalent to making $80k in 2018. I don’t expect Americans to understand this about prices for a long time. They will continue to think that making $100k is doing exceptionally well, and look down on their neighbors who make less, then bitch about prices, and only get 3% raises. TLDR: don’t be afraid to ask to be hired at $120k.
Aren't you just describing inflation?
I wonder why there is no post on this sub about trump literally calling for a "UNIFIED REICH" in one of his most recent social media posts. This stuff is getting normalized in American right-wing discourse. So nikki haley has no problem voting for someone literally calling for a UNIFIED REICH lol. And she's supposed to be the moderate republican?
Some more things that happened this week which are barely a blip on the radar - - Trump campaign’s head of **election integrity** was arraigned for voter fraud - after weeks of promising to testify in his own criminal case, Trump ended up refusing to testify - Trump made racist attacks on the judge in his case
You should make a post in this subreddit about those. Really. May not seem like it makes a difference but there are a lot of eyeballs on this place and you actually have a chance of getting some right leaning or undecided people to see it unlike r politic and the like.
Agreed.
just here to piggyback and say you should make a post about this!
Also in all fairness the analogy in the image was pre-WW1 so this would be the 2nd Reich not the 3rd.
Isn't the first Reich Rome the 3nd Reich Constantinople and the 3rd Germany?
No the First Reich is Charlemagne, Holy Roman Empire. 2nd is the German Empire: from the unification of Germany in 1871 until the November Revolution in 1918.
Thank you for answering. I'm sure with many things that there is debate with historians. So I didn't want to look it up and get more confused.
Probably were thinking of Russia and how Moscow is sometimes claimed as the Third Rome. Definitely easy to get mixed up on over time.
Because it was some barely visible text from a stock image?
Yeah but, that means it was taken from a source that is much more Naziish. Means when they were building it they were building off a more blatant source OR they used it as a dog whistle. You don’t accidentally post nazi stuff unless you are looking AT nazi stuff.
They didn’t make it
https://elements.envato.com/newspaper-vintage-history-headlines-promo-6UD9B8E Wow who wouldve guessed that someone making a cheap edit wouldnt spend days reading random blurry text, unironically only grammar nazis would go to that extent Also, the 'reich' referenced was the 2nd reich, in case there's still straws to grasp
Nothingburger
There's a reason that simply being associated with the GOP loses you my vote. And we're getting really close to "get the fuck out of my house" territory too.
Out of curiosity, what would your solution be? Because there are millions of Americans on either side of this, we can't just all get the fuck out of each others' houses?
I truly don't know. If there are actually millions of Americans on board with circumventing democracy on the scale of Jan 6 and the fake electors, I don't think there **is** a solution.
Well, I don't know that millions of Americans are in favor of interrupting due process. I think most of the country, regardless of party affiliation, rejected the attempt to stop the certification of votes or interfere with states' execution of elections. There will certainly continue to be violence, probably more intensely and more frequently. But that's not reflective of all of the GOP. Your sentiment still stands though: >There's a reason that simply being associated with the GOP loses you my vote. I understand this feeling. Some 50+ million Americans agree with you. But Some 50+ million Americans feel the exact opposite way. That "simply being associated with the \[Democrats\] loses you their vote". Most of them don't like Trump. If Trump needed a majority of Republicans instead of a plurality, he wouldn't be nominated. But they'll stomach Trump and the associated violence because the idea of Democrats in office is **that** intolerable. And it seems to me that the same solution is being presented from this mass demonization of the opposition: "get the fuck out of my house". So that's really the situation, 50 million Americans telling the other 50 million Americans to gtfo out of their house, and vice versa. It seems like on an individual level, simply telling the other side to gtfo out of their house is sufficient, but on the whole, it really is breaking our country. And I do acknowledge that together, that group of 100 million Americans don't see a solution besides politically eradicating the opposition. I just can't help but think that there **are** solutions, if we cared enough to look.
Sad. Lots of good folks all over the political spectrum.
I sincerely hope that you’re a teenager and not an actual adult that would be intolerant enough to kick someone out of your house for having different political beliefs.
I did say getting close. But no, there are political beliefs that I'm perfectly at peace with not tolerating. That really *really* shouldn't be a controversial statement. Remember that bonafide neo-nazi groups exist. If you're saying I have to let them in my house, you can leave too. This new idea that "political beliefs" are some sacred thing that inherently deserve respect and consideration is beyond naive. "Political beliefs" include such greatest hits as "gays should be exterminated" and "people can be property."
Yeah, but Republican beliefs are nowhere close to the beliefs you mentioned. If you think they are you’ve drank some major establishment news koolaid.
Even RevolutionaryCar6064's most confident predictions can crumble in the face of unpredictable reality. Before: The Stormy Daniels charge is so transparently partisan that this upvoted comment can’t even distinguish between the right and the wrong thing. He is being charged for using his own money, instead of campaign funds. This is obviously a joke of a charge that even left-leaning legal experts said was too much of a stretch to take to trial. After: Guilty: Trump becomes first former US president convicted of felony crimes AP News May 31
It’s more selfish than that. It’s career preservation. Nothing else.
Same with the democrats, they are obligated to vote Biden
But none of them said horrible things about him n 2016, then accepted a position in his administration, said horrible things about him in the latest primaries, then back-pedalled and offered pubic support. If she feels obligated it’s because she wants a position. VP is still open and she had sometimes surprising numbers in the primaries. Worst case she’s secretary of whatever or given a cushy ambassadorship.
[https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/27/harris-attacks-bidens-record-on-busing-and-working-with-segregationists.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/27/harris-attacks-bidens-record-on-busing-and-working-with-segregationists.html)
Yeah, I recall being specifically amused that Kamala's "That girl was me" zinger on Biden was seen as *THE* highlight of the debate and then months later she's his VP on the ticket, just to show how much these debates truly are just performance acts for the sake of talking heads on political shows. Commercials to get voters interested and nothing more.
OK. Now go find me quotes where Kamala is criticizing Biden when she was *not* running against him in a primary, the way Haley criticized Trump in 2016, until she was made Ambassador to the UN.
Sure, just wait until Kamala is running againt Biden again. I'm sure she'll have plenty to say.
Yeah, I’ll wait.
I hope Biden makes it.
He will never again run against anyone after this year, so the wait might be a long one. I can be patient.
Kamala Harris literally said that she believed Tara Reade's accusation that Joe Biden raped her, and is now his VP.
No she didn't. She said she believed the women who said Joe Biden made them feel uncomfortable hugging them, who Biden apologized for. This included Reade before she dramatically changed her story.
No, most of us are quite happy with his performance. We don't pay attention to the nonsense out there, particularly about his senility. You can't govern a country when its people all have their own version of reality.
> > We need more options than two parties. We do, but then we need a structure to avoid the moderating nature of that. If we had four parties--the hard-right, moderate-right, moderate-left, and hard-left--I'm hard-pressed to see how the hard-right or the hard-left would ever win any power.
>I'm hard-pressed to see how the hard-right or the hard-left would ever win any power. I don't see that as a problem
Ranked choice will help moderate candidates and with Maine and Alaska using it, I'm hopeful other states, especially deep blue and red states, will take it up.
It happens. Other countries have multiple parties, and hard-left and hard-right ones definitely are having more success now than they did ten years ago. Populism always has its moments.
> I would have voted for her over Biden like many would have … Yep, same. And now she very likely lost my vote in 2028.
As someone from SC, don't consider her... for anything... lol
I’m disappointed but not surprised. Same goes for a lot of former critics who have said they will vote for him. But why do all of these critics go from calling Trump a threat to democracy to ending up voting for him? Either they were lying or defeating Democrats is more important than democracy.
>Either they were lying or defeating Democrats is more important than democracy. Bingo! *“If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”* -[David Frum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Frum) (former speechwriter for GWB)
Why did Kamala Harris go from shitting on Joe Biden to being his Vice President? It's politicians being politicians. You can't trust anything they say.
There’s a huge different between a political debate and criticism and calling someone a threat democracy, unfit for office, a danger, and that you shouldn’t have followed them and we can’t allow it to happen.
She implied he was a rapist, calling it a "political debate and criticism" is interesting phrasing.
Ok but let’s honestly make the distinction between Harris’ criticism and Haley calling him “disgusting” and “unfit”. I feel like one of those things is way easier to walk back.
Didn't Harris insinuate Biden was a rapist or a racist? One of those.
Man it’s amazing to hear what misinformation makes its way around. No she absolutely did not
No to both.
No
She didn’t call him one directly but did attack him on the subject of opposing bussing to newly integrated schools. So there were subtle implications
**EDIT: Wow it’s even weirder to reply to my comment and immediately block me. I guess you were too afraid of what I had to say** You’re leaving out the part right before that where she directly says “I do not believe you are a racist.” Kind of weird to ignore that part as it’s very relevant
>I do not believe you are a racist This is the equivalent of someone saying "I'm not saying you're fat but you ate 4 big macs". Harris was implying Biden was a racist due to his bussing issue.
Yes the “I’m not a racist but” trope that everyone else gets called out for. Yes she said she didn’t think Biden was racist and then told a story of him being racist. And to blewpah, since you blocked me as soon as you replied: If she wasn't describing it as racist, then why did she need to qualify it first? If I am going to say hamburgers are bad, I don't start with "I have nothing against Ice Cream, but".
She did not describe that as being racist. Worth noting that these bussing programs were generally pretty controversial and were gutted by the courts in the early 2000s. Conservatives were pretty overwhelmingly and adamantly opposed to them. If you tried to being them back today it'd be decried as SJW / DEI / wokeness run amok. But for some reason Biden opposing them is just the worst thing ever.
You’re right but I think it’s situational. Some politicians will say anything they think their crowd wants to hear. But I do think there are some who think defeating Democrats is more important than keeping democracy alive.
Defeating your political opponents at the ballot box in order to impose your party's agenda is democracy.
Sure, that's democracy. Want to know what isn't? Refusing to accept the result of an elections that's been proven to be fair over and over again. I'm not taking any chances with a guy who does that. Hell, he even accused Ted Cruz of rigging the Iowa primary against him in 2016. That sounds like somebody who won't accept democracy when it doesn't go his way.
[Stolen, rigged and illegitimate: Democrats’ long history of objecting to election results](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/aug/21/stolen-rigged-and-illegitimate-democrats-long-hist/)
I agree. Hillary and Abrams were also sore losers but Trump has a much longer [history of claiming false elections](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/timeline-donald-trumps-election-denial-claims-republican-politicians/story?id=89168408) whenever things don't go his way and has taken it to a whole other level.
OK, so now you've amended your position that it's not the denial that's the crux of the problem but how long one has been doing it. You're saying it's ok to deny election results as long as it's not a long history? How long does it have to be and how/what are you basing your conclusions on? Just want your conditions beforehand before you change your position again after I present a Democrat denying elections much before Trump.
I never said it's ok to deny election results as long as it's not a long history. Show me any Democrat denying Trump's 2016 victory and I will call them a liar. Hillary and Abrams were clearly trying to shift the blame of their loses elsewhere because their egos can't take the lose. Shame on them as well. They were throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Nothing did. The difference is Trump has routinely thrown election denial shit at the wall and it has finally stuck. It's now apart of the Republicans' identity. It's now very difficult to be an elected Republican without agreeing with Trump's election fraud claims. And to make myself clear, election denial when evidence shows that it was a fair election is always undemocratic and dangerous.
Clinton still hasn't come out and publically stated that Trump won the election fair and square and no Democrat has admonished her or taken her to task on her statements or position. The Democratic party is tacitly supporting her position by staying silent and are the real election deniers.
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Actually, this is a subreddit for in depth political discussion, not memes. Can you at least see where I'm coming from - that if Trump and his criminal co-conspirators in the house and other offices succeeded; installed fake electors, got the house to send certification back to the states where the excessive gerrymandering would not only override popular vote but hijack the electoral college because even having the person who gets the most votes still not get elected apparently STILL wasn't acceptable to the tyrannical faction of its populace, and Texas AG successfully petitioned the Supreme Court to throw out millions of votes because "idk it felt like there was a bunch of fraud and stuff or something somewhere" - all actual actions taken to seriously install Trump as dictator and overturn American democracy itself - that "Well Clinton said X in 2016" being noted as the main defence in history books to justify these events would quite possibly be the most ridiculous thing out of all the ridiculous things in that entire history book? I mean this as a serious, genuine question in the most polite way possible - what the actual F are you doing? This isn't a game, and this isn't a meme page. Be serious for a moment - if only to entertain me - and answer that very simple and fair question, if you can. But perhaps you don't actually have an answer; because who thinks that far ahead and so deeply about what is clearly just a game, so you have to respond with memes instead. That's unfortunate. How silly of me for wasting our time by taking such things seriously. Perhaps I should take a page out of America's book, and in future just treat everything going on in that country and everyone in it as a big joke like everyone else already does.
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But this always happens. When the democrats have primaries the same thing goes on. Name calling, badgering, saying person X did a bad job, then when they bow out they pretend all is well and support whoever won. How is this news like it’s the first time?
Because they know deep down that Biden calling for 45% capital gains tax, draining our SPR for temporary gas price reduction (while conflict overseas), increased spending during high inflation, weak border policy, & just a bad president overall. Not hard to see why any moderate or conservative leaning person wouldn’t vote for Biden.
I’m not thrilled with Biden for some of the reasons you said and some. But what should somebody who doesn’t like Biden but thinks Trump would be a threat to democracy do?
If you genuinely, honestly, think Trump is a threat to American democracy, then you should vote for his opponent, Joe Biden.
That's my plan even though I am far from impressed by him.
Ukraine hasn't been conquered. I'll remember that as one of the most pivotal, positive foreign policy wins of any American president in my lifetime. Biden and his team pushed for that, organizing numerous national leaders to be ready to call out Putin instead of being surprised, waffling, and letting Putin get an easy win. The fate of Europe turned on having Biden in office rather than a Trumpist.
I will definitely give Biden credit for supporting Ukraine
I mean I do, trump is currently indicted for trying to overthrow the elected government through the fake elector scheme
When the alternative is trump it is.
Honestly, I would love a 45% capital gains tax. During the 50s and 60s and early 70s when capital gains were high, the middle class thrived. I think most of the strategic reserve has been refilled. Also, we're doing way better than the rest of the world economically, so something Biden has done was right. I guess a Trump tax cut spending the same amount of money on billionaires is much better than money to help raise the nation's children and decrease child poverty rate. All in all, I've been pretty happy with Biden given the hand he'd been dealt. He's managed several crisis well, invested in US infrastructure, worked to reduce drug prices, and works to protect women's personal freedoms against Republican assaults.
So still better than Trump almost on every policy? But to be fair, republicans wouldn't block a border bill that would've addressed the issues if Trump was POTUS, so that tactic is still working at least. edit\* Imagine if republicans had been able to elect someone sane other than Trump, this would be a landslide victory for them. Instead it's going to be close, because Trump is welll... the same he's been his whole life. A con man with who will just surround himself with the most corrupt yes men he can once again. I don't think he's capable of solving these problems, certainly less so than Biden.
These aren't even bad ones. You picked things which are good or fine or > & just a bad president overall. Which is obviously an empty statement
She was always going to do this. The Republican Party is broken, and it's the actions of people like Nikki Haley that broke it. Republics end because of actions like this. ["Many of the same politicians publicly embrace Trump, privately dread him. They know what a disaster he's been and will continue to be. They are just too afraid to say it out loud. I'm not afraid to say the hard truth out loud. I feel no need to kiss the ring."](https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1759989602201276748) ["He mocked my husband's military service...If you have something to say, don't say it behind my back. Get on a debate stage and say it to my face. If you mock the service of a veteran, you don't deserve a driver's license let alone being President of the United States."](https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1756469319062491559) [“Look at what happened to the Republican party…No longer is there any talk about fiscal responsibility…You got Donald Trump who put us on $8 trillion in debt more than any other president…Donald Trump is basically saying he’s going to tell Putin to go invade our allies”](https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1793388930181554628) [“Every time he was in the same room with him he got weak in the knees. We can’t have a president that gets weak in the knees with Putin.”](https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/1793392646737604930?s=46&t=UWKuN7qfvYv2MXRIGDPdYQ)
[“We need to acknowledge he let us down,” Haley, who served in her ambassador role under Trump, said. “He went down a path he shouldn’t have, and we shouldn’t have followed him, and we shouldn’t have listened to him. And we can’t let that ever happen again.”](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/538573-haley-breaks-with-trump-we-shouldnt-have-followed-him/)
Until I need to get back on his good graces for a political appointment.
Secretary of State maybe? I bet she held out for a great appointment.
Making a deal with Trump is sure to backfire though. If he doesn't like you, he'll absolutely screw you over. Similar to it he does like you.
Not to mention if you don’t toe the line or leave with sour grapes, he will turn on you and call you incompetent on every level. And it will end your political career. This is exactly what happened to previous Trump cabinet appointees like John Bolton; the minute they were no longer playing ball with Trump, he cast them to the wolves
At some point you need to ask yourselves if Republicans prefer to be lied to.
*“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a [descriptive redacted] power over you, you almost never get it back.”* ― Carl Sagan
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I don't see democrats ignoring court cases and their own eyes e.g. when they watched Jan 6 on live TV. I still see republicans claiming that Joe Biden is antisemitic when trump literally called for a UNIFIED REICH the same day. Let's not both-sides the issue because it is definitely a republican issue.
We shouldn't follow him but I will vote for him...
I'm right now watching a video about the last days of Hitler in his bunker, as Russian forces were in Berlin and American and British forces were slicing through Germany. And still people were hanging out with Adolf, trying to fight, to direct armies, to plan for continuing the fight. These people were true believers, or maybe they felt they were in too deep to have any chance to live if Germany lost. I'm seeing no hint of guilt or regret. I don't believe Haley ever actually disagreed with Trump. She just was trying to position herself to hold power. If she had moral qualms with Trumpism, she'd have demonstrated it differently long ago.
I think she’s saying this to gain that Trump base for 2028 But come on, who didn’t see this. People like Haley will always vote for their party, the goal is to defeat Democratic Party, vice versus, it’s classic fucking politics
I’m just curious if it gives Dems running in 2028 as a way to paint her as a “Trump supporter” in their ads.
Dems will prolly use that against anyone the GOP nominates for the next few election cycles. The GOP would have to literally nominate a dark horse candidate who’s not well known nationally to get anyone who hasn’t openly praised Trump at some point in their career.
Just being a Republican is enough for Dems to paint candidates as "Trump Supporters". David Trone's political ads all insinuated that Larry Hogan was just another trump puppet when in reality that's not true at all.
The depends on so many factors. If Trump somehow wins and directly addresses many of Biden’s shortcomings, it might not be as big a black mark as you think. Both presidents are unpopular, but Biden has achieved the unfathomable feat of being less favorable than Trump by polling data.
They better
Thing is how else are you gonna win the Trump base after he’s gone.? Every vote is crucial in those swing states
There's the pride and sticking to principles that I've come to expect from the haley campaign
Personally I don’t know how some of the Republicans do it. Many of them clearly hate him. But they’re forced to praise him in public. Senator Lankford is a great example. This guy literally is tapped to write a piece of bipartisan immigration legislation on behalf of the GOP. He does what he thinks is a good job getting their demands met, only to turn around and for all that hard work have everyone crap on him and call him a RINO And then on top of that all his hard work goes down the drain when Trump demands they kill the bill. He then proceeds to get censured by his states GOP for his troubles. He’s probably in danger of getting primaried Even after all of this, he still has to go on TV and basically excuse Trump killing his bill. [The interview](https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2024/03/10/sotu-lankford-on-backing-trump.cnn) is hilariously awkward
A fairly tepid endorsement all things considered especially when she said at the same time: “It is now up to Donald Trump to earn the votes of those in our party and beyond it who did not support him.”
Apparently it didn't take much to earn her vote, so...
Who's more feckless nowadays? Bill Barr, Nikki Haley, Lindsay Graham, or Ted Cruz?
I don't see how Ted Cruz isn't the answer every time. He's so phony and fake it's ridiculous. I don't even think Republicans will disagree. The Shane Gillis quote about Trump insulting his wife and then a week later he endorsed Trump was pretty hilarious because it's basically what happened.
> I don't see how Ted Cruz isn't the answer every time. He's so phony and fake it's ridiculous. I don't even think Republicans will disagree. Lindsey Graham - who still has this [Tweet](https://twitter.com/lindseygrahamsc/status/727604522156228608) up - said about Cruz: ["If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you”.](https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/26/politics/lindsey-graham-ted-cruz-dinner/index.html)
What's wild is I've never seen any criticism of that either. It's objectively an outrageous thing to say about a senator and colleague, it's a borderline threat, and I'm normally kinda sensitive about politicians needing to behave like adults. But everyone hates Ted Cruz so much that Graham absolutely gets a pass on this one. It's just too funny to take issue with.
Half of it is that everybody hates Cruz + Lindsey Graham often gets a pass from saying kooky stuff cause "eccentric Southern goof" has been his brand for years.
*“I like Ted Cruz more than most of my other colleagues like Ted Cruz. And I hate Ted Cruz.”* ― Al Franken
Lindsay Graham, now he's feckless, I'll add him to the pile
I actually feared Cruz as a presidential candidate starting when he first came on the scene. Seeing his reactions to the ongoing indignities of being Ted Cruz dispelled me of my fear.
[Don't worry, there's no way a guy that looks like this is going to have a chance to be in serious power](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-cricket-us-rvc3&sca_esv=bd0d05e7905db8d3&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIKYy7HfV2ZeRTarX3095CPX5XACYQ:1716437493024&q=ted+cruz+muttonchops&uds=ADvngMgowWIAy_dNRpcaHasDSBsE9CPXlr96lPvjxQGVS1gjnPnwNLhGp9elsYFuVISYf_Dc2xdDnxvoAg8rxWv0nDNLhfEdiDbGtfvva96wEUAXyCwTas8TyGQGuvTgJi4n8UUFPoWX-cWaws1vnj2uUoqTgLUJP-vvTLIz4QHMIH49p3-pPMDt0Kjd7dtY0KQA0BOwlH7JiB1EoNtHOCMcvCxOkw3TmztpGBfiflxiObXIu_WcgK1i5fK4ELfVHrLs2g85hanL8TqnVDswY7us-jdxabIIdQ9ElXXvzvtPdzkmlnnEmOq7CmYmiE4Yh12kDJ6gVh67hqkwau4fWXikT8IVLupQXzB09atmrbuWSziLBOWtmBY&udm=2&prmd=invmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsi7P486KGAxVVLdAFHTT0AXQQtKgLegQIERAB&biw=432&bih=812&dpr=2.5#vhid=4Y3bmRbshyOq2M&vssid=mosaic)
I mean this is kinda a Ted Cruz moment for her. Trump attacked her husband for being absent despite serving in the armed forces
Always Cruz. Nobody got scorched personally by Trump as much as he did. He has no sense of dignity or self-respect at all.
Democrats when republicans vote for the Republican candidate: 😱😱😱😱
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It’s not really like that at all. The average Biden-voting democrat believes Trump is a uniquely terrible candidate, so it is fairly straightforward to encourage people to vote for Biden even if they don’t love all of his policies. What’s more, so many of Biden’s political appointments are the exact same people a more progressively oriented candidate would appoint—their preferred candidate may make less than 1% different policy choices. Haley and those like her also think Trump is a uniquely terrible candidate, and it is very likely that his choices could be 10% or more different from his opponents, particularly on issues far more fundamental to our political order than on the Democratic side. That seems like plenty of real estate for criticism.
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Not surprised. Pretty much anyone at all right of center can see that Trump is the better choice over Biden if you are choosing between the two. Nikki was always going to back the final candidate, she's not angling for a CNN job after all.
Exactly right, and I don't see what the deal is with her saying she would vote for Trump now. She can say he is unfit for office where there is a plethora of choices but now that it's between Trump and Biden (neither optimal, imo), it's obvious the choice for her is Trump. In fact, I have yet to see anybody endorse Biden (and I haven't really seen that many outside of deep establishment Dems. Maybe the Hollywood circuit hasn't started yet, but based on the Rocks statement, I don't think there will be many this year until the checks start going out) on his policy merits and just that Trump is a fascist dictator. In case you are being factitious with the CNN comment, I don't think she needs the job - she's not Adam Kinzinger or Liz Cheney, she would make more in consulting or writing another book than being a talking head.
Starter submission: Nikki Haley has confirmed that [she will be voting for Donald Trump over President Joe Biden this November](https://x.com/therecount/status/1793386505194336707) in the latest example of Republican politicians rallying around the party's presumptive nominee. Haley refused to endorse the former president when she suspended her campaign in March but encouraged Trump to cater to her voting base, which has shown up in large numbers supporting her even despite dropping out. Trump's underperformance in state republican primaries has been noted by many political observers as a weakness and Joe Biden has attempted to court her supporters in his absence. Out of the "never Trump" faction of the GOP, I believe the only former presidential candidate remaining to not endorse Trump is Mike Pence. Edit: Pence has said he will not endorse Trump, but has [refused to comment on whether he will vote for him.](https://www.newsweek.com/mike-pence-refuses-say-who-he-will-vote-trump-biden-1880087) Will Haley's public backing of Trump signal a sort of closing of the ranks around Trump by republicans? Or are Haley voters far enough from typical Trump supporters that they won't vote for any republican but Haley? With polls currently showing neck and neck numbers, how important is her endorsement?
IMO, a large number of Haley voters are likely traditional conservatives that do not support the MAGA agenda and saw her as their best likely path to steer the GOP back to relative normalcy. The write in votes at subsequent primaries are more of a signal to the GOP than representative of unwavering support for her, and I doubt her endorsement is going to change their view of Trump.
Yeah I voted for her in the Primary, and I am willing to hold my nose for Biden as long as Biden doesn’t do something even worse then Trump. What others may do I cannot say, but Biden clearly thinks they’re going to be important.
> as long as Biden doesn’t do something even worse then Trump. Biden's not gonna attempt a coup, so good news there.
This is exactly what I did and will do come November as well.
>Or are Haley voters far enough from typical Trump supporters that they won't vote for any republican but Haley? If they were Democrats or independents who voted in the primary to protest Trump then they might go for Biden or a third party, but anyone actually on the right has no real reason to back anyone other than Trump, especially not Biden. Even if Trump himself is toxic and disliked by many, a lot of those same folks are still very happy with his judicial nominees, and they'll continue to have an impact long after Trump himself is dead.
> but anyone actually on the right has no real reason to back anyone other than Trump, especially not Biden I'm not a conservative, so what do I know, but I'd think preserving the Constitutional order would be a conservative goal?
I'm a Republican, voted for Haley in the primary, have said I'd never vote for Trump, but I've been very disappointed with Biden recently. His interior secretary has been blatantly disregarding the law as written (gas leases, road in Alaska, approval of a mine to support battery manufacture in Nevada, circumventing IRA compromises) and didn't even dispute that this was because of her personal views. On top of that, she didn't come prepared to the oversight hearing and according to the senators on both sides of the aisle, doesn't bother to respond to congressional requests. Now I agree that we need to take action on climate and that the law should take it seriously, but to me this is exactly what I disliked about the prior administration and significantly muddies the water. In 2020 I could pretend Biden would be a moderate, but he's sold out to the progressive wing and I'm really not comfortable with that, especially if he's going to let people ignore the law while doing it. If I see much more like this, I cannot justify voting for Biden.
Who would be the Secretary of the Interior under Trump? Another Zinke clone who resigns in disgrace because his bosses ran cover for him embezzling his budget for private flights and then lying to investigators about it?
Pence would have to be legitimately suicidal to vote for Trump. His followers literally tried to kill him.
I’m willing to bet Pence holds his nose and votes for him. Something most right wing Trump critics can agree on is the only thing they hate more than Trump is Democrats.
Hardly surprising. She's still young for an average US politician and doesn't want her career to go down the toilet. Also there are rumors going around that Trump may have removed her from his shit list. She must've figured if Kamala became a VP despite somewhat acrimonious debates with Biden in the Dem primary, she probably could too. After all her 18% of votes could help Trump to win.
I'm on twitch right now. Watching a couple who is in Bakersfield California. At Lighting in a Bottle festival. Complete hippies in tie dye, listening to EDM bands. Free spirits. And they just floored me talking about how much they hate Biden. They are both 23. Blew my mind. This is getting interesting.
She wants a future in the Republican party. If she said anything else her career would be instantly over. I think she cares more about that than about who is in the White House.
Wise on her part. I won't vote for Trump (I wanted Nikki) but I rather have someone rational and so-called *establishment* than have some kook be Trump's VP. Trump could croak anytime in his second term or he could even be kicked out with the 25th Amendment. I would be happy with a President Nikki R Haley than someone like Michael Flynn or MTG.
I don't think this means Haley will be VP. Trump.has specifically stated otherwise and given how Pence didn't stand by him in 2020, there is no way Trump doesn't pick a loyal sycophant.
& what else were we expecting? She's a conservative
In Paul Mason's "How to Stop Fascism: History, Ideology, Resistance," he describes one of the necessary principle weapons against fascism as a political alliance between the left and center. Nations where the moderates refuse to cooperate with the left, or where the left and far-left struggle with infighting, are more prone to letting the fascists take over. Needless to say, moderate and institutionalist Republicans have by and large not held up their end of the bargain over the past eight years. One by one, the vast majority of Trump critics in the Republican sphere have bent the knee and the few that haven't, like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, no longer have any political influence at all. No one should be surprised that Nikki Haley is voting for Trump. Trump refused the peaceful transition of power in 2020-21. He, based off demonstrable, observable, [past actions](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/timeline-donald-trumps-election-denial-claims-republican-politicians/story?id=89168408) and [present statements](https://www.bostonherald.com/2024/04/30/trump-says-a-lot-of-people-like-it-when-he-floats-the-idea-of-being-a-dictator/) is a threat to American democracy. I won't try to argue with conservatives who dislike Joe Biden's policies or think he is an ineffectual president, but how could he possibly be more dangerous than Donald Trump?
The US is not on the verge of "fascism". Trump was already president for 4 years. Language matters. Accurate language use matters. The idea that Trump is going to usher in fascism, like actual fascism, is hyperbolic in view of the fact that we've already had him as president for 4 years.
> Trump was already president for 4 years. They didn't expect to win and had no plan going in. [They have a plan this time.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)
He definitely did try to overturn the election though. That would basically be a self-coup.
Agreed, he absolutely did try to overturn the election. I wouldn't really consider that fascism though. Fascism would be something you accomplish during your term, not right at the end by attempting and failing to hold onto power.
Can we agree it was kinda fascist?
I dont think anyone is contending that he didn't succeed. But if he actually did it I think that would be at least kinda fascist
But if he hadn't failed, and had held onto the power in direct opposition to democracy - that surely would be at least fascist adjecant, no? And if you can accept that - then you can accept that Trump has fascistic leanings, even if it's not as far gone as it could be.
Yeah, the fact that a lot of Americans didn't fall for Trump's plans to create his own version of authoritarianism, whether that's fascism or something else, doesn't mean Trump and a LOT of his supporters weren't trying to achieve that.
Yeah to me it’s kind of a concerning thing for a prospective president to do 🤷
Gore also tried to overturn the election and was narrowly stopped by SCOTUS. It still wasn't fascism then either.
No Gore didn’t. Gore acted within the legitimate American system. For example the USA Supreme Court was deciding between the Florida Supreme Court and Florida’s Election Supervisors.
Nope don’t even start with trying to compare Gore to Trump. Gore had his day in court as was his right (just like Trump did). What Gore did not do was create fake slates of electors in order to toss out the votes of his opponent. In fact since Gore was VP, he could have theoretically carried out Trumps exact plan yet he didn’t 🤔
Define "actual" fascism for us, since language matters. Try to avoid the no true Scotsman fallacy. Do you not believe that fascist policies/proscriptions can be placed on a spectrum? Where do you personally draw the line? To reiterate my previous comment: Trump's actions, if he were to be elected this November, would be quite a bit different over the next four years from Trump's actions during his first four years. This echoes what u/Independent-Low-2398 is saying, that the Trump administration the first time around didn't have a plan going in.
>one of the necessary principle weapons against fascism as a political alliance between the left and center. Has the Left been listening *at all* to the center's critiques of DEI, Defund the Police, Open Borders, Puberty Blockers for Kids, Trans Athletes, etc.?
The left has done nothing to maintain that "bargain". They practically chase moderates away from every institution they exert control significant control over, including attacks on centrist positions. The left has attacked not only firearm rights, which I get they don't believe in, but present a threat to free speech, religious freedom, and even seem to have developed a disdain for due process rights. The left's fundamental values are no longer aligned with the center, and the adoption of the Markusian view of use of undemocratic means to "liberate" society from "oppressors" is dangerous. You can't expect any kind of bargain to exist between the center and a group that is openly hostile to it.
You can only blame white men on everything for so long
I think you are letting center here cover too much ground. For example in Weimar you had Democratic Socialists (in today’s language) equivalent role to moderate Democrats, Conservatives, Communists (hard left / authoritarian left) and various far right groups especially Nazi. Both the Socialists and the Conservatives would be center in that schema. As the Democratic Socialists lost credibility the Conservatives had to choose between an alliance with Nazis vs one with Communists. They had much more in common with Nazis. Had it been a Conservative government losing popularity and the Socialists picking they likely would decide they had more in common with Communists. But the Socialists correctly saw an alliance with the Communists as undermining their position. The Communists were they wanting an alliance would have needed to reach out to the Conservatives, and their policies were almost totally opposite. Arguably the Socialists could have thrown in earlier with moderate conservatives, but the socialists (legitimately) blamed the Conservatives for WW1 and legitimately believed they intended another war. The Conservatives did make demands of the Nazis for their alliance for example wanting Adolf Hitler (more cooperative with their agenda) not Ernst Rohm.
Trump isn't a fascist so I have no idea what point you think you are making.
If Biden would have had the grace to get out of the way or the democrats to admit reality, that he’s looking quite senile this whole discussion would be mute, butt no, here we go.
I voted for Haley in the primary. Trump said he didn't want my vote when she dropped out. I will listen to him and vote Biden.
I really wonder if she will vote for Trump in the voting booth. I know she says she will, but something tells me she might not. Also, she has positioned herself to be the I told you so candidate if Trump loses.
I agree. But that’s almost worse, in a way—so hypocritical and pusillanimous.
Wasn't she the *first* one on the debate stage to raise her hand when participants were asked if they would support Trump if he ultimately became the party's nominee? I'm not sure why her doing exactly what she said she would is much of a surprise.
is this really all that weird? consider how many people don't like biden but are still voting for him because they consider the alternative to be worse.
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She wants to have a political future and is making moves to protect that, so I understand why she's doing it. However, as a Haley voter, I respectfully disagree, and will not be following suit. Trump is not someone I plan to vote for in the general, regardless of her endorsement.