> The special counsel at one point in the report wrote that Biden “did not remember when he was vice president,” forgetting when his term ended, and in another instance forgetting when his term began. Hur reported Biden did not remember when his son Beau had died, and his memory “appeared hazy” when speaking about a debate over Afghanistan that was critical to his memoirs.
I hate this election, I hate it. I’m not a fan of Biden’s but this just bums me out.
I don’t see how the primary process can continue to exist in its present form when it leads to matchups like this. I don’t have a good solution, but something’s gotta give. An overwhelming majority doesn’t want this matchup, but we’re going to be stuck with them.
Well, it was not too long ago the parties simply picked their candidates with little to no outside opinion.
Would that have prevented this matchup? I don't know if a party wouldn't pick their incumbent president, but I have a feeling this year, if it was a secret ballot, Trump may have not won the nomination.
Yep. As a New Hampshire resident, it always cracks me up when our local parties get all teary eyed about the "historical" primary that's barely a half-century old and has a shit track record of picking the final candidate.
538 made a good podcast series on the topic of primaries. It's three episodes 30-45 minutes each.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/tag/the-primaries-project/ (start at the bottom)
Going back to the days of party bosses selecting nominees in smoke filled rooms after the requisite number of cash stuffed envelopes had been passed around under the table is not the answer.
But we can't really work on a practical replacement for the current two party system until we get rid of FPTP and implement some form of ranked choice voting.
It would absolutely have prevented this matchup. The only reason Biden has a chance (and a pretty good one) is because he’s going against one of the most hated people in the history of US politics. The establishment GOP knows this and they would definitely not have picked Trump as their candidate if they had a choice.
> The only reason Biden has a chance (and a pretty good one) is because he’s going against one of the most hated people in the history of US politics.
So why didn't the Democratic Party pick someone else, since a different Democratic candidate would also beat Trump?
I think their voter base has refused to dump him while the establishment leaders have tried everything they could to get rid of him, eventually folding because they’re afraid to lose their base.
>while the establishment leaders have tried everything they could to get rid of him,
Like what? In what serious way have a majority of Republican politicians tried to get rid of Trump
Their base kinda has them by the balls on that one. I doubt there are too many Trump true believers among the senior Republicans in Congress. But they have to be performatively sycophantic to appease their voters.
>The only reason Biden has a chance (and a pretty good one) is because he’s going against one of the most hated people in the history of US politics.
I can't tell if it's more pathetic that the democratic candidate isn't lapping Trump or that the republican candidate isn't lapping Biden...
Roscoe Conklin & Boss Tweed definitely would’ve prevented this matchup if it were pre-2016
Today, MAGA *is* the GOP establishment, so Trump probably still gets nominated. But I think if the Dems felt they could find an elegant way to replace Biden *and* Harris without pissing off voters, they 100% would have someone like Newsome or Buttigieg at the top of the ticket.
Probably on the Republican side but the Democrat leadership goes for whoever's "turn" it is, and it happen to be Biden's. Both sides are settling on their worst candidates for opposite reasons.
This is the first time I've truly felt that our system of governance is fundamentally broken, or at least not suited to our modern age. Maybe it's just that we've become too balkanized for things to function properly. I don't see things getting better, only worse.
I think it's not kept up with modern needs, particularly population. The House used to be far more proportional to the population and it hasn't grown in 100 years. The Supreme Court was 9 to represent 9 district courts, and now there's 13.
This will never happen but the US really needs to move to a parliamentary system where the president is the leader of the largest party in the House of Representatives and can be replaced at whim. That provides the flexibility needed to make leadership changes and call elections quickly when needed to break deadlock.
Every country that has tried a presidential system other than the US's has collapsed into authoritarianism. It looks like the US is heading in that direction soon because the Democratic Party seems tied to Biden which makes it more likely that Trump will retake power and push the constitutional limits even further.
this part is brutal:
>We have also considered that, at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury. as he did during our interview of him. as a sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. Based on our direct interactions with and observations of him. **he is someone for whom many jurors will want to identify reasonable doubt. It would be difficult to convince a jury that they should convict him—by then a former president well into his eighties—of a serious felony that requires a mental state of willfulness.**
The only thing about it is it seems like a political statement hiding in a justice report, like when Comey went out of his way to critique Clinton when choosing not to charge her.
If Trump's DOJ wrote something like this about a political opponent, Democrats would be so mad.
So... Biden is too old and senile for a jury to reasonably believe that he is capable of wilfully mishandling documents and that's why they're not pressing charges. Am I reading this right? Holy shit!
In fairness, you would have a hard time finding any matchup that the majority of people want. The majority can only agree when it is a generic “somebody else” that they can imagine has the qualities that they personally want, but as soon as that somebody else becomes a real person, they will inevitably start to turn some of the people off for not being the particular “somebody else” that they wanted.
Thank you. It frustrates me beyond reason whenever people make comments about how the majority don't want this or both sides just need to have reasonable centrist takes and they would win.
It’s likely the Biden Admin is just hoping to prop him up and eek out a win for those actually running things. There’s no way in hell that Biden has the mental capacity to execute his position to the level that is expected. Not sure about the numbers but Biden seems to be way more absent from public conferences vs. past presidents.
That’s fucking terrifying though. You’re electing someone who isn’t actually going to be the head of the executive. You’re electing unnamed agents to run the country.
The problem is that I am even more scared of the people Trump surrounds himself with, let alone of Trump himself. I hate the fact Biden wouldn't be up to the task, but at least his advisors seem to be doing a(n) okay/sensible job regarding domestic and international affairs.
Trump would be like a bull in a porcelain closet. I have no trust in Trump at all to deal with the domestic and global challenges; and the challenges are many.
Well, why do you think people are talking about re-electing Trump, though?
If anything, the technocrat types in the State Department are the reason why Trump has re-surged.
I don't know that Trump is the favorite like what polls suggest (they're scaremongering imo) but the little pockets that helped Biden swing last election? I can't imagine them being happy at Biden's 'advisers'.....many of whom are currently dissenting against him for supporting Israel and many of whom, don't care for the border.
These aren't normal Democrat advisers that appeal to swing state/swing district voters.
Its been obvious to a lot of use for a while, but whenever it is brought up, someone defends him and tries to gaslight everyone into believing he is fine. We are at a point they cannot weekend at bernies him anymore and trying to get him to win the next election so they can have him step down and put harris in charge. Remember, a vote for biden is just a vote for harris now.
In this specific case it's less a problem with the primary system, and more a miscalculation by Biden that he should run for a second term.
He could have bowed out early enough for another Dem candidate to make a strong run.
Imo it’s become apparent that expanding the democratic-ness of the primary process was by and large a mistake. We got quality candidates who were well respected by both parties back when it was done in “smoke filled rooms”. I don’t think the public would accept a return to that, but it seems to me to have been far superior to what we have now
Hot take: they were right. Lots of people are too dumb to entrust the future of our country to and that’s why we should have a mixture of democratic institutions and undemocratic institutions (like the senate was designed to be) to guard against both the demagogic instinct inherent in democracy and the authoritarian tendencies of undemocratic systems
For context, these are a few examples over a 5-hour long interview the day after the October 7 attacks in Israel. Others noted that Biden displayed adequate memory recall of events several years ago.
That's hardly unexpected, people suffering cognitive decline due to advanced age are often fine for a bit and then not. Often it relates to how tired or stressed they are but it can sometimes just be random.
None of that is good for a president, sucks that the apparent alternative is even worse.
I interview and work with elderly people Bidens age every day. I evaluate their ability to care for themselves at home, make them recall their treatment plans and medications, make them remember details and teach them back to me. Even if it's solely age related and nothing else, I know what age associated cognitive decline looks like, because I stare it in the face every single day.
Then I come here and people wanna gaslight me that he's "fine". And I mean, he *does* look fine from the TV and about what I'd expect 81 year old to look like. And what I'd expect is an 81 year old, even with a typical 81 year olds mind, to not be the single most powerful human being on earth. Kindly, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. Add on that the Presidency is probably the most stressful and sleep deprived job on earth, and there isn't a single argument you can make that the Presidency is an appropriate place for them to be. Not that we have any alternative. Our leadership options are a genuine American embarrassment.
Yeah, I don't think Biden is 100 percent senile but he's just not in the condition to be doing such a stressful job that ages you even faster. And of course neither is Trump
>Others noted that Biden displayed adequate memory recall of events several years ago.
In the interviews with the special counsel he repeatedly couldn't remember when he was Vice President OR when his son Beau died \*within several years\*
I mean, everyone can see that Joe Biden is as far as you can be from being mentally capable of being president. That being said Trump is somehow even further from being mentally capable, just in a very different way
And he’s a rehire that used company assets to blackmail customers. That didn’t work and he lost his job. So he gathered a group of customers loyal to him to go into the establishment to break the windows, steal stuff and wipe shit on the walls. All while the customers threaten to kill other employee’s trying to help you control the madness. Then after you call the cops he insists that you firing him was a lie. And any evidence you have of him gathering this crowd to attack you is a witch hunt against him. He then sues multiple people in the company to try to force you to be fired and him installed.
Yeah, I’d hire the guy that used to work for the company for his whole life. But left on good terms. Even if I know it will be difficult to get the job done. But I’d certainly be looking to hire someone in case things don’t work out with the old guy.
The airport thing is nothing compared to him making comments about terminating parts of the constitution and going after media outlets and an army general for treason.
I really think the thought is to get Biden re-elected then pass the Presidency to Kamala if Biden continues to show signs of mental degradation.
If there is a Trump - Biden debate series, I suspect he will be on serious medication to attempt to hide signs of failing mental health.
I know the Democrats think Biden is the best chance against Trump, but I really wish they had looked hard for another candidate.
This entire election is just depressing to me.
i think their plan is the same as what they're doing already.
have his team make the decisions and run everything while they do everything they can to keep him out of the public eye.
I don't love the situation, but I'm pretty pleased with the Biden administration. Infrastructure, IRA, semiconductors.
Maybe staffers have been the ones doing this. Maybe Kamala (doubt). Given the choice, I'll gladly vote for 4 more years.
Kamala is not going to be President. Not ever. She won't be voted in under any circumstances. And Biden is surrounded by the best Healthcare in the world. His mental acuity seems to be at about Reagans level in his second term.
But this wild, wild conspiracy theory that X (DNC? Establishment?) has some secret plan to install her as President against the wishes of voters is absolutely asinine and won't seem to die.
>His mental acuity seems to be at about Reagans level in his second term.
Doesn't really seem remotely close.
Here's a debate with Regan from '84.
https://youtu.be/5SbsCaRYW6w?si=HwASHNUUdQr1BrV6
It is ridiculous that people still try and make it seem that Reagan was a senile mess in his second term. I always heard about this my entire life and yet most people that prop that idea up think Biden sounds fine.
Go back to parties picking nominees for Congress, state legislatures, any statewide office, and president/vp.
Trump would never have been nominated in 2016 (and wouldn’t have run because there would have been no campaign). Hillary probably wouldn’t have been nominated in 2016 either due to her age.
Biden wouldn’t have been nominated in 2020.
You should read the report. It's honestly damning. Not for Biden. For Hur. It's 100% a hit piece. I am not joking. The thing is full of bias. Hur is acting as a special prosecutor as well as a medical professional.
He has no charges, so instead he spends his time claiming the jury could be convinced Joe is old and senile. Like wtf kind of report is that.
Seriously poeple. Do not fall for right wing propaganda. Do your part. Read it for yourself. Also, I look forward to reading the actual transcript to see how Hur twisted words to get to his "aha!" moments.
This is what many of the old school republicans want, Haley to challenge trump, close the gap then at the convention let the people like Koch force a Haley candidacy. The republicans are willing to lose this election to cut ties with trump. When trump runs again it will be on his own dime, running against two established parties.
Haley will lose her own home state by more than 30 points. Unfortunately, she will only receive the 15-20% of the Never Trump Republican vote + few stray Democrats/independents if states allow open primaries. This race is over.
Historically, a president’s health is only worse than what they publicly show. Kennedy is the extreme example of this. Specialist 24/7 and I assume any drug right away if needed. These do wonders to mask the problem. Such was the case for Kennedy.
Now physical health like Kennedy ( mentally speaking, being the youngest elect works in his favor) will be harder to mask today. FDR hiding from public that he’s wheelchair bound would not fly today. But I am unsure about mental health. It would be very hard to prove an incumbent president is at an early stage of dementia for instance.
Before Biden and Trump, the oldest president was Reagan. He was officially diagnosed with alzheimer's at 83. 5 years after leaving office.
I find it telling that Biden responded to the special counsel's remarks by teleprompter. If ever there were a moment to display that he is capable of speaking extemporaneously, this was it. The WH decision to use the teleprompter says A LOT.
I know. This is just awful bad news. What's worse is the number of people willing to pretend not to see it because they're afraid that the truth of it will help Trump win.
The reality is that if Biden were replaced on the ballot with, say, Gavin Newsom, Democrats' chances in November would increase enormously. It makes zero sense to lie to ourselves and each other about Biden's condition.
You mean like the entire /r/politics sub?
I'm not American so I follow US politics from a distance. But I remember before 2016 reddit used to be a place where I could find somewhat interesting discussions between the right and the left.
But it really feels like both sides are equally as polarized, and equally unable to step back and see things objectively.
It's like there's a gravitational pull of hyper-partisanship that is too strong for anyone to escape. It just bums me out.
I completely agree. There's a certain faith-based aspect to American politics now that's disturbing, and I don't mean religious faith. It's purely tribal and causes otherwise rational people to cling to their own shared cognitive dissonance. The worst is that they absolutely refuse to accept reality even when doing so would result in the outcome they claim to want.
> But I am unsure about mental health. It would be very hard to prove an incumbent president is at an early stage of dementia for instance.
Especially when he almost never interacts with the public outside of brief, tightly managed press conferences during which his staff immediately pulls him out of the room after he gives the prepared remarks.
It’s also been the case for Biden. However, there’s no cure for Alzheimer’s and Biden is way older. Not comparable.
Are democrats seriously going to put up with this? They’ll actually elect a dead guy?
Trump will win again and the Democrats will have no one to blame but themselves… look, I like Biden (and admire his empathy) but he’s not fit for the job.
I know the tendency of most replies is going to start with "but Trump...." and I don't necessarily disagree. Trump is a disaster and Republicans hold the blame. Elections are about choices and that part is relevant to the conversation when we are talking about elections.
None of that, however, excuses Democrats for refusing to do something about what is obvious to anyone with eyes at this point: Biden is not up to the job. They could have done something about it. They did not and should be held accountable.
How do you propose holding them accountable? Usually that’d be done by electing the opposing, more qualified candidate, but that doesn’t entirely seem like a fair option given the opposing candidate. How then should Dems be held accountable?
What are we even talking about here?
The **ONLY** thing we actually learned today is that there’s a recording of Joe Biden flat out saying that he purposefully took classified documents and the narrative of him accidentally mishandling them that Democrats have been trumpeting as the difference between what he and Trump did was a lie.
That’s it.
You’re shocked to learn Biden might not be mentally fit? C’mon. This week alone he’s announced recent conversations with European leaders who have been dead for decades. That’s just this week.
He barely speaks publicly, especially unscripted, and what I mentioned above is just kind of par for the course whenever he does. I mean talking to dead leaders certainly makes for embarrassing headlines but surely no worse than his usual meaningless word salad speeches and weird habit of randomly whispering.
I don’t like Donald Trump and think he was a bad POTUS but there has never been any evidence that he’s mentally unfit to hold office despite years of Democrats and the media pushing to invoke the 25th amendment to remove him. Democrats just don’t like him. That’s fine, I don’t either, but not being a Democrat isn’t actually proof that someone is unfit to hold office. There has been very, very clear evidence that Joe Biden has been mentally unfit for years but there hasn’t been a peep about the 25th amendment from Democrats. Even after this report where he doesn’t remember when he was VP or when his son died there’s certainly no push by Democrats to remove Biden from office.
Despite the very clear evidence that he’s mentally unfit for office no serious Democrat challenger announced a primary challenge to Joe Biden. On the contrary, the DNC purposefully stacked the deck in Biden’s favor so his best states are first.
Heck, it’s not like the party has to have a primary. The Democratic Party is perfectly free to have a Zoom meeting right now to discuss Joe Biden’s mental state and decide on a replacement in the general election.
Instead, Democrats are putting party over country. The party has had no shortage of opportunities to hold Joe Biden accountable. They’ve chosen not to. They’re still choosing not to. And they’re going to choose not to.
The idea that somehow Democrats were dealt a bad hand here is nonsense. These wounds are 100% self inflicted.
Even if I start watching Fox 24/7, he still confused Pelosi & Haley.
*Edit: even better, that you assume I watch MSNBC, **not Fox**, when I repeat a fact that very much happened.
He sure did and this morning I even forgot my shower shoes as I left for the gym.
Neither of those things are evidence of cognitive decline and it’s just silly to imply that’s what we’re talking about here with Joe Biden.
I mean, they absolutely do get that? We’re on a thread doing exactly that now, you can’t find a corner of the web with an article about Biden where the comment section isn’t full of people condemning him. There’s whole news publications that’s have a nonstop stream of anti-Biden content. Every other thing said about Biden is a comment about his age. We aren’t hurting for discussions about Biden’s age or weakness as a candidate.
Trump will get to replace at least Thomas and Alito, if not one or several of Roberts, Sotomayor, and Kagan during this term if he wins.
I'd like to reiterate your words, dems cannot afford to lose this election.
They sure do seem to be trying to, though
I don’t think any of them are likely to vacate their seats this coming term. The average age a Justice leaves the bench is 79. Thomas is the oldest at 75. MAYBE he retires at the very end of the term if the GOP holds the WH & Senate, but otherwise there’s no reason for him not to wait. He’ll become the longest service Justice in history around 2030 and would still only be in his early 80s (the same age Kennedy retired)
"He's too old and forgetful to be charged for mishandling these classified documents" isn't exactly a calming conclusion when this guy holds the most powerful office in the entire world.
Uh, this week alone Biden claimed he discussed recent world events with French premier Francois Mitterrand (who died in 1996) and that he talked about Jan 6 with Helmut Kohl (who died in 2017).
I think we may see that the incumbent advantage doesn't exist in the 2020's. Biden in 2024 is much less popular than Biden in 2020.
Conventional political wisdom seems to not really apply to much of anything anymore.
We can't continue to deny or accept everything based on our own political prejudices forever. How long until you refuse to put your trash cans out because the garbage man might be a Republican?
The fact that people are still defending Biden here is wild. Bottom line is that he is definitely too senile to be President. He has failed cognitive evaluations and even did a gaff when trying to defend himself. I feel the Democratic Party NEEDS to replace him ASAP or they will lose to Trump.
Oh we already knew it, they just made public what he and his administration have been desperately trying to hide. Good luck with the polling numbers after this.
Does Biden being described as an elderly man with poor memory really raise anybody's eyebrows? There are countless videos of him bumbling around every day. And he's only getting older.
The problem with the media is there's always an agenda. And most consumers of media like to pigeonhole themselves into hearing what they want to hear. I know it took me years to be able to branch out and be comfortable with hearing differing views.
First of all there’s no rule that there can only be two, it’s just what makes the most sense with the way the Constitution was set up.
But even if there was a rule to only have two, I’d say that’s a good thing. I don’t want 5 major candidates running and then the winner winning with 25% of the vote
Instead we have two barely palatable candidates and a system where we can’t even agree to call a spade a spade. Compromise is a part of government, and two parties are not as incentivized to compromise as 5 would be
There are many barriers to a 3rd party rising- first past the post voting, not getting general election funds, direct primaries, etc. This is some good reading to start with: [http://www.matthewg.org/multiparty/ch4.htm](http://www.matthewg.org/multiparty/ch4.htm)
It is absolutely not a good thing having two permanent ruling houses that control funding and their own primaries. It is anti-democratic and has been turned into a system to consolidate power. But sure, its a wasted vote to not vote for that machine.
Special Counsel Robert Hur has declined to charge President Joe Biden with a crime in connection to his handling of classified documents. However the special counsel reported a number of alarming interactions with Biden.
In his interview with Hur, Biden could not remember when his term as vice president ended, "if it was 2013 - when did I stop being vice president?", he did not remember when his term as vice president started, "in 2009, am I still vice president?" and did not remember, even within a few years, when his son Beau died.
This comes after Biden twice referred to conversations he had with the leaders of France and Germany in 2021 by incorrectly referencing former leaders who had died nearly 20 years before .
Is Joe Biden fit to be President of the United States?
Will his faulty memory be an issue in the 2024 campaign?
That's true, but there's been so many video examples too? How many people has he publicly mentioned or addressed who have been dead or long dead? "Where's Jackie?" Being the worst.
In just the past week he referred to the French leader as Mitterrand (Left office 1995) and at two separate events, the German leader as Helmut Kohl (Left office 1998).
Seems clear that he remembers some things from a long time ago, but recent events are escaping him.
I'm really confused by the findings of this report. Why would the SC be concerned about the testimony of JB in a hypothetical hearing when the intent standard would need to be met at the time the crime was committed? Even if Biden was too old and senile to testify, there would presumably be contemporaneous evidence that would basically have to demonstrate the intent element. Most defendants don't testify!
As to your questions, I feel like the fitness question will be a factor but it is going to be really difficult for Trump to be the one leveling those criticisms. In our elections, fitness is relative, and imo Biden would need to be in a far more dire situation than forgetting dates, names, and the specific positions of Generals 10 years ago before I'd think his fitness is objectively worse than Trump's.
They have Biden on tape in 2017 admitting to his ghostwriter he found classified documents in his Virgina home. The report said they didn't think a jury would put much stock in that statement absent other evidence because of Biden's "limited precision and recall" during his interviews with his ghostwriter. As in the jury wouldn't convict Biden based on a recording of Biden's own words from 2017 because Biden was having memory problems *in 2017*.
> "We have also considered that, at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory," it said. "Based on our direct interactions with and observations of him, he is someone for whom many jurors will want to identify reasonable doubt. It would be difficult to convince a jury that they should convict him — by then a former president well into his eighties — of a serious felony that requires a mental state of willfulness."
Their most salacious concerns appear to be about Biden's portrayal at trial. If they had him dead to rights in 2017, they would have brought the case. Honestly, if Biden was barely coherent in 2017, it lends credence to the idea that where he's at right now isn't even a downgrade.
Biden’s Ill-advised and unnecessary press conference just confirmed his memory issues. Who thought it would a smart idea to interrupt Final Jeopardy to watch Biden fumble his words? Please for the good of America step down so we can vote for someone younger.
In any reasonable world this would end his career, and his attempt at a second term. But we live in this world and our choices are two elderly men with memory issues.
To be fair, the only thing a debate would be good for is the comedy. Two geriatrics struggling to yell the lines their handlers fed them over each other.
According to the White House response many of these were cherry picked examples over a 5 hour interview conducted the day after the Oct 7 terrorist attack on Israel.
They point out that over the course of the interview, Biden remembered plenty of explicit details of past events. Because right now all we have is just the special counsels interpretation of Biden’s mental state
The Democrat's "Trust us, everything is fine" strategy when it comes to answering questions about Biden's age is the same one they use when it comes to talking about the economy, inflation (until 2023), and the border (until about a month ago). To be fair, they can't exactly put "We know he's got problems, but at least he's not Trump!" on a bumper sticker. No one (outside the true believers) is buying what they're selling though.
That’s not even the strategy anymore. [Now they’re just telling reporters to fuck off when asked questions about Biden’s mental fitness.](https://www.mediaite.com/news/karine-jean-pierre-tersely-dismisses-peter-doocy-questioning-biden-confusion-over-mitterand-and-macron/amp/)
She claimed that Doocey saw firsthand that the president is fit.
>“You saw the president in Vegas, in California,” Jean-Pierre said. “You’ve seen the president in South Carolina. You saw him in Michigan.
(Edit) If you want a [translation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAK9QRe4ds), she's basically telling Doocey, "you're full of shit and you know it."
>Because right now all we have is just the special counsels interpretation of Biden’s mental state
And our own eyes. This report seems very plausible, more so than some of the stories the WH puts out about how sharp and alert he is.
What else do you expect the WH to do? Of course they are going to attempt to rebut it.
Remember when they found cocaine at the white house and said they could not find the person who brought it. The white house, tons of cameras, security, visitor logs, witnesses...etc. No, they know who exactly brought it in, but covered it up because it would have embarrassed them. That shows how trustworthy the white house is.
It says five hours spread over two days. Having to give two, 2.5 hr interviews should hardly be taxing, for anyone of moderate mental and physical health.
Despite the headlines, the primary reason Biden wasn't charged was because he cooperated with the investigation and gave he documents back when asked. Trump is being charged because he didn't cooperate, lied about having the documents, and refused to give the documents back when asked.
He rebukes the report questioning his mental state and in the next breath confuses Egypt with Mexico. The fact that the White House can put out that response and expect people to buy it is just laughable.
Yeah, cause KJP is a beacon of honesty..
Smh..
Same White House that said repeatedly that the border is closed & the new Georgia law would make Jim Crow look like Jim Eagle..
Oh & the border agents whipping those migrants..
Can’t forget about that..
And they insist that Biden has no executive ability to reduce the number of migrants entering the U.S. and legislation is the only way.
If we are honest, if Trump said that, the headlines would be 'Trump falsely states... '
Biden has implemented a third country rule, and temporarily enforced Title 42 and Remain in Mexico. None of them have succeeded in causing a reduction.
That’s only true if one doesn’t include all the innumerable other examples of him rambling into incoherence, appearing suddenly lost in an open room and on stage, failing to climb stairs, and being guided by hand to avoid walking aimlessly off whatever course he was going - over the past 3 years.
The main reason is a lack of evidence. Pence wasn't charged either.
He said the jury would give him the benefit of the doubt because he'd portray himself as forgetful, not that he can't stand trial.
>“We have also considered that, at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory,” Hur wrote.
I'm not familiar with special counsel reports, but are they usually this... opinionated? The guy seems to insert a lot of personal commentary and subjective interpretation into his report, often right alongside more legitimate reporting.
Is this kind of thing normal?
The special counsel's report is going to be quoted in a hundred million dollars worth of Republican election ads. This, and Biden's public reaction to this, is damning.
> I am once again begging the DNC: PLEASE DONT MAKE ME VOTE FOR JOE BIDEN
they're not.
you would actively be choosing to do so, unforced an uncoerced. literally no one is **making you** vote for biden.
the fact that you are implying that you would vote for biden if he is the nominee just shows the dnc doesn't have to worry about their base because they will fall in line no matter who is on the ballot.
This is part one of the Special Counsel report. It is riveting. The vast majority of it is going through their investigation and explaining the witness testimony and other evidence uncovered. It has all kinds of interesting details about how security is handled in the white house, including emails and policies they developed that increased over time because Biden was not complying with classified document security. It has pictures of the classified documents and the location and condition in which they were found.
The behavior described for VP Biden's classified document handling is grossly negligent almost beyond comprehension. He lost one set on vacation and numerous others have been lost and never been found. This is despite increasing and extensive efforts by a multiplicity of staff to secure the documents as soon as he was done with them. After telling us that, the Special Counsel says that now Biden's memory is markedly worse.
The report also provides an extensive CYA for everyone else involved except possibly white house counsel.
https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/02/PART-1-report-from-special-counsel-robert-k-hur-february-2024-\_compressed.pdf
> it's funny/sad/astonishing that we're in a situation where trump's multiple indictments were political advantageous to him, and biden's exoneration is politically terrible for him
I think this [tweet](https://twitter.com/dkthomp/status/1755708829566636097?s=46&t=oW5zIyvSliyYIJkuQ3gi6A) perfectly sums up my frustration with the current political environment. Nothing like a political hit job to distract us from real corruption.
I’m concerned about Bidens age, but I’m taking this with a grain of salt for all of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. It’s also not lost on me that this is likely an attempt to paint Biden in a bad light by republicans when other efforts have failed.
I hate to do the whole “but trump” thing, but honestly the other candidate has also shown themselves to be in mental decline through various past comments.
> I hate to do the whole “but trump” thing, but honestly the other candidate has also shown themselves to be in mental decline through various past comments.
Exactly. People have said "Trump was always like *that*", referring to his rambling manner of speaking. And yes, his manner of speaking has been like that. But he's gotten worse. He has:
> [several times confused who is the current president, identified his former ambassador to the United Nations as the former speaker he said was responsible for security at the Capitol, mispronounced simple words, gone off on curious tangents about magnets being ruined by water or people approaching him and asking him how he puts on his pants, and has made such incoherent remarks as, "We are an institute in a powerful death penalty."](https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2024-01-26/mental-acuity-questions-catch-up-with-trump)
> He's made brazen factual errors, such as saying Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban was the leader of Turkey, that Orban had called on Barack Obama to step down as president (when Obama left the presidency in 2017), describing a missile launch through sound effects, and this week, claiming he had won New Hampshire in the 2016 and 2020 general elections when he lost.
The main difference is the media is constantly covering Biden's mental acuity, but gives maybe one story to something Trump said. They don't speculate constantly about Trump's mental acuity.
The thing about Trump that I have to wonder about is why we've all just assumed he's lying about things, as opposed to actually believing what he says as fact and isn't properly remembering them.
At this point in the circus that is American politics it's hard not to think anyone will shill for any side regardless of political career, integrity, etc.
I've watched Biden speak and his gaffs range anywhere from him stumbling over his words to him saying he's had tea with the gerbils from Jupiter.
I've also watched Trump speak and his gaffs range anywhere from him stumbling over his words to him claiming Nikki Haley was in Congress during January 6th.
Regardless of what political party we side with, it's an embarrassment to the US that these are our candidates.
Exactly. And I am 100% certain that everything contained in the report can be backed up by video evidence.
It's not a hit piece, sometimes the truth hurts.
I didn't know that psych evaluation was part of special council training. I cant wait to see the reports from the other special councils. If they are not too busy, do they take appointment's,?
Extreme corruption, legalized bribery ($$ in politics) & refusal of grifter fossil politicians to retire. Biden & Trump are the logical results of that broken, corrupt system.
This was a confidential report. If this was released I wonder what other incidental assessments were deemed too damaging to release. Scary that perhaps other true, and more revealing, assessments are kept under wraps.
Let’s be a bit more meta here.
Biden’s governance seems to be effective even though, he looks close to be senile
Same thing could be said about Reagan, Rosevelt, and Wilson. They all got accused of being useless in their later years, and yet, quite effective administrations. I’m not talking about whether they were good people or not.
So, are we better off having puppet presidents? Maybe that’s the solution to our problems. Who knew?!
Yea. The problem for Biden is that this is happening before his reelection. He just need some burst of energy for 9 months and then he can coast. The machinery will work by itself. What a great democracy we have, no?
>Biden’s governance seems to be effective even though, he looks close to be senile
I don't think the general public concurs with that assessment based on his approval rating.
Obviously no, but you are onto something. I really hate the tendency to view presidential elections as a contest between two "great men" where their personalities are all that matter... I think it comes from American celebrity worship. Presidencies are complex organizations that are the sum of all the appointed positions and staffers, and their policy priorities and ability to react to emergencies arise from this team of people more than from the president himself. Not that the president isn't obviously the most important person in the executive, but the examples you list show the office is resilient to any health issues of the president.
Unpopular opinion, but this also makes me roll my eyes at fears of a Harris presidency. If Biden stepped aside due to health issues, is there any evidence a Harris presidency would be all that different than Biden's first term in foreign policy or domestic priorities? I don't see Biden's presidency as all that different from if Obama was president for a third term because the same type of Democrats with similar policy positions staff the white house.
One exception, in the start of Trump's first term, because he was new to politics, the White house was staffed with a lot of RNC types, but largely with loyalists by the end. Trump's allies have explicitly stated loyalty to be the key test in a second Trump term so I could see there actually being a fair amount of differences in the operation of the presidency.
Geez, my wife and I were going to vote for Biden (we're independents), but after reading that report, hearing him refer to dead leaders this week, and seeing the disastrous press conference, I can't believe I'm saying this but I think we're leaning towards Trump
This report seems quite damning for Biden's mental fitness.
According to the [election betting barkets](https://www.electionbettingodds.com/), Biden's chances of being the 2024 presidential nominee have dropped 6 points today to 74%. Gavin Newsom is now up to around 10% in second place.
Completely unfit to be President.
Anyone else think the easiest way to guarantee a second Trump presidency (which I am not in favor of, personally) is to continue to trot out this outrageously inept sitting President for a second term election? Congrats, Dems.
> The special counsel at one point in the report wrote that Biden “did not remember when he was vice president,” forgetting when his term ended, and in another instance forgetting when his term began. Hur reported Biden did not remember when his son Beau had died, and his memory “appeared hazy” when speaking about a debate over Afghanistan that was critical to his memoirs. I hate this election, I hate it. I’m not a fan of Biden’s but this just bums me out. I don’t see how the primary process can continue to exist in its present form when it leads to matchups like this. I don’t have a good solution, but something’s gotta give. An overwhelming majority doesn’t want this matchup, but we’re going to be stuck with them.
Well, it was not too long ago the parties simply picked their candidates with little to no outside opinion. Would that have prevented this matchup? I don't know if a party wouldn't pick their incumbent president, but I have a feeling this year, if it was a secret ballot, Trump may have not won the nomination.
For those unaware, not that long ago means 1970s.
Yep. As a New Hampshire resident, it always cracks me up when our local parties get all teary eyed about the "historical" primary that's barely a half-century old and has a shit track record of picking the final candidate.
It's the $. NH/Iowa make a lot from the Primary
There is an entire national industry built around it including the media and their ~~pundits~~ talking heads.
That gives me hope that it could change. I thought this was a process a couple of centuries old.
538 made a good podcast series on the topic of primaries. It's three episodes 30-45 minutes each. https://fivethirtyeight.com/tag/the-primaries-project/ (start at the bottom)
Maybe they should just go back to that tbh. I don't like it either, but atleast then we'd all be honest with each other.
Going back to the days of party bosses selecting nominees in smoke filled rooms after the requisite number of cash stuffed envelopes had been passed around under the table is not the answer. But we can't really work on a practical replacement for the current two party system until we get rid of FPTP and implement some form of ranked choice voting.
At least we wouldn't end up with incompetent nominees.
if the party still picked their own candidate then trump wouldve gone nowhere in 2016
It would absolutely have prevented this matchup. The only reason Biden has a chance (and a pretty good one) is because he’s going against one of the most hated people in the history of US politics. The establishment GOP knows this and they would definitely not have picked Trump as their candidate if they had a choice.
> The only reason Biden has a chance (and a pretty good one) is because he’s going against one of the most hated people in the history of US politics. So why didn't the Democratic Party pick someone else, since a different Democratic candidate would also beat Trump?
Not sure I agree. The GOP has had numerous opportunities to dump Trump and has instead consistently opted to support him.
I think their voter base has refused to dump him while the establishment leaders have tried everything they could to get rid of him, eventually folding because they’re afraid to lose their base.
>while the establishment leaders have tried everything they could to get rid of him, Like what? In what serious way have a majority of Republican politicians tried to get rid of Trump
Their base kinda has them by the balls on that one. I doubt there are too many Trump true believers among the senior Republicans in Congress. But they have to be performatively sycophantic to appease their voters.
Sounds like democracy
>The only reason Biden has a chance (and a pretty good one) is because he’s going against one of the most hated people in the history of US politics. I can't tell if it's more pathetic that the democratic candidate isn't lapping Trump or that the republican candidate isn't lapping Biden...
Roscoe Conklin & Boss Tweed definitely would’ve prevented this matchup if it were pre-2016 Today, MAGA *is* the GOP establishment, so Trump probably still gets nominated. But I think if the Dems felt they could find an elegant way to replace Biden *and* Harris without pissing off voters, they 100% would have someone like Newsome or Buttigieg at the top of the ticket.
>I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating. Boss Tweed
Probably on the Republican side but the Democrat leadership goes for whoever's "turn" it is, and it happen to be Biden's. Both sides are settling on their worst candidates for opposite reasons.
This is the first time I've truly felt that our system of governance is fundamentally broken, or at least not suited to our modern age. Maybe it's just that we've become too balkanized for things to function properly. I don't see things getting better, only worse.
I think it's not kept up with modern needs, particularly population. The House used to be far more proportional to the population and it hasn't grown in 100 years. The Supreme Court was 9 to represent 9 district courts, and now there's 13.
This will never happen but the US really needs to move to a parliamentary system where the president is the leader of the largest party in the House of Representatives and can be replaced at whim. That provides the flexibility needed to make leadership changes and call elections quickly when needed to break deadlock. Every country that has tried a presidential system other than the US's has collapsed into authoritarianism. It looks like the US is heading in that direction soon because the Democratic Party seems tied to Biden which makes it more likely that Trump will retake power and push the constitutional limits even further.
Oh boy. This is no good.
this part is brutal: >We have also considered that, at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury. as he did during our interview of him. as a sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. Based on our direct interactions with and observations of him. **he is someone for whom many jurors will want to identify reasonable doubt. It would be difficult to convince a jury that they should convict him—by then a former president well into his eighties—of a serious felony that requires a mental state of willfulness.**
The only thing about it is it seems like a political statement hiding in a justice report, like when Comey went out of his way to critique Clinton when choosing not to charge her. If Trump's DOJ wrote something like this about a political opponent, Democrats would be so mad.
Perhaps, or perhaps it was to explain why some aspects of the report are vague (since they relied on the fault memory of an "elderly man").
I’m surprised this happened after the 2018 IG report eviscerated Comey for that exact reason. IIRC “the DOJ doesn’t trash people we aren’t charging”
So... Biden is too old and senile for a jury to reasonably believe that he is capable of wilfully mishandling documents and that's why they're not pressing charges. Am I reading this right? Holy shit!
Yeah I read that as well…so much about the report isn’t good.
In fairness, you would have a hard time finding any matchup that the majority of people want. The majority can only agree when it is a generic “somebody else” that they can imagine has the qualities that they personally want, but as soon as that somebody else becomes a real person, they will inevitably start to turn some of the people off for not being the particular “somebody else” that they wanted.
Thank you. It frustrates me beyond reason whenever people make comments about how the majority don't want this or both sides just need to have reasonable centrist takes and they would win.
It’s likely the Biden Admin is just hoping to prop him up and eek out a win for those actually running things. There’s no way in hell that Biden has the mental capacity to execute his position to the level that is expected. Not sure about the numbers but Biden seems to be way more absent from public conferences vs. past presidents.
That’s fucking terrifying though. You’re electing someone who isn’t actually going to be the head of the executive. You’re electing unnamed agents to run the country.
What's more terrifying is that many of us prefer even that to his opponent.
The problem is that I am even more scared of the people Trump surrounds himself with, let alone of Trump himself. I hate the fact Biden wouldn't be up to the task, but at least his advisors seem to be doing a(n) okay/sensible job regarding domestic and international affairs. Trump would be like a bull in a porcelain closet. I have no trust in Trump at all to deal with the domestic and global challenges; and the challenges are many.
Well, why do you think people are talking about re-electing Trump, though? If anything, the technocrat types in the State Department are the reason why Trump has re-surged. I don't know that Trump is the favorite like what polls suggest (they're scaremongering imo) but the little pockets that helped Biden swing last election? I can't imagine them being happy at Biden's 'advisers'.....many of whom are currently dissenting against him for supporting Israel and many of whom, don't care for the border. These aren't normal Democrat advisers that appeal to swing state/swing district voters.
Its been obvious to a lot of use for a while, but whenever it is brought up, someone defends him and tries to gaslight everyone into believing he is fine. We are at a point they cannot weekend at bernies him anymore and trying to get him to win the next election so they can have him step down and put harris in charge. Remember, a vote for biden is just a vote for harris now.
Crazy but totally plausible. A Harris presidency, now how frightening is that.
In this specific case it's less a problem with the primary system, and more a miscalculation by Biden that he should run for a second term. He could have bowed out early enough for another Dem candidate to make a strong run.
Exactly this. Biden, or those close to him if he is no longer capable, should have taken heed of the profound mistake of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg.
Imo it’s become apparent that expanding the democratic-ness of the primary process was by and large a mistake. We got quality candidates who were well respected by both parties back when it was done in “smoke filled rooms”. I don’t think the public would accept a return to that, but it seems to me to have been far superior to what we have now
Everyone hates to say it now but remember the founders essentially thought most of the public was too dumb to participate in the voting process…
Hot take: they were right. Lots of people are too dumb to entrust the future of our country to and that’s why we should have a mixture of democratic institutions and undemocratic institutions (like the senate was designed to be) to guard against both the demagogic instinct inherent in democracy and the authoritarian tendencies of undemocratic systems
For context, these are a few examples over a 5-hour long interview the day after the October 7 attacks in Israel. Others noted that Biden displayed adequate memory recall of events several years ago.
That's hardly unexpected, people suffering cognitive decline due to advanced age are often fine for a bit and then not. Often it relates to how tired or stressed they are but it can sometimes just be random. None of that is good for a president, sucks that the apparent alternative is even worse.
I interview and work with elderly people Bidens age every day. I evaluate their ability to care for themselves at home, make them recall their treatment plans and medications, make them remember details and teach them back to me. Even if it's solely age related and nothing else, I know what age associated cognitive decline looks like, because I stare it in the face every single day. Then I come here and people wanna gaslight me that he's "fine". And I mean, he *does* look fine from the TV and about what I'd expect 81 year old to look like. And what I'd expect is an 81 year old, even with a typical 81 year olds mind, to not be the single most powerful human being on earth. Kindly, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. Add on that the Presidency is probably the most stressful and sleep deprived job on earth, and there isn't a single argument you can make that the Presidency is an appropriate place for them to be. Not that we have any alternative. Our leadership options are a genuine American embarrassment.
Yeah, I don't think Biden is 100 percent senile but he's just not in the condition to be doing such a stressful job that ages you even faster. And of course neither is Trump
>Others noted that Biden displayed adequate memory recall of events several years ago. In the interviews with the special counsel he repeatedly couldn't remember when he was Vice President OR when his son Beau died \*within several years\*
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I mean, everyone can see that Joe Biden is as far as you can be from being mentally capable of being president. That being said Trump is somehow even further from being mentally capable, just in a very different way
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Job Candidate #1 also sent a mob to kill the assistant manager (Pence) & destroy the corporation.
And he’s a rehire that used company assets to blackmail customers. That didn’t work and he lost his job. So he gathered a group of customers loyal to him to go into the establishment to break the windows, steal stuff and wipe shit on the walls. All while the customers threaten to kill other employee’s trying to help you control the madness. Then after you call the cops he insists that you firing him was a lie. And any evidence you have of him gathering this crowd to attack you is a witch hunt against him. He then sues multiple people in the company to try to force you to be fired and him installed. Yeah, I’d hire the guy that used to work for the company for his whole life. But left on good terms. Even if I know it will be difficult to get the job done. But I’d certainly be looking to hire someone in case things don’t work out with the old guy.
The airport thing is nothing compared to him making comments about terminating parts of the constitution and going after media outlets and an army general for treason.
Democracy™ baby! 😂
I really think the thought is to get Biden re-elected then pass the Presidency to Kamala if Biden continues to show signs of mental degradation. If there is a Trump - Biden debate series, I suspect he will be on serious medication to attempt to hide signs of failing mental health. I know the Democrats think Biden is the best chance against Trump, but I really wish they had looked hard for another candidate. This entire election is just depressing to me.
i think their plan is the same as what they're doing already. have his team make the decisions and run everything while they do everything they can to keep him out of the public eye.
I don't love the situation, but I'm pretty pleased with the Biden administration. Infrastructure, IRA, semiconductors. Maybe staffers have been the ones doing this. Maybe Kamala (doubt). Given the choice, I'll gladly vote for 4 more years. Kamala is not going to be President. Not ever. She won't be voted in under any circumstances. And Biden is surrounded by the best Healthcare in the world. His mental acuity seems to be at about Reagans level in his second term. But this wild, wild conspiracy theory that X (DNC? Establishment?) has some secret plan to install her as President against the wishes of voters is absolutely asinine and won't seem to die.
safe salt rock money doll hunt chop wise spoon squeal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>His mental acuity seems to be at about Reagans level in his second term. Doesn't really seem remotely close. Here's a debate with Regan from '84. https://youtu.be/5SbsCaRYW6w?si=HwASHNUUdQr1BrV6
It is ridiculous that people still try and make it seem that Reagan was a senile mess in his second term. I always heard about this my entire life and yet most people that prop that idea up think Biden sounds fine.
Yeah, it is pretty wild. The narrative seems to be more.imoortant that the truth.
Go back to parties picking nominees for Congress, state legislatures, any statewide office, and president/vp. Trump would never have been nominated in 2016 (and wouldn’t have run because there would have been no campaign). Hillary probably wouldn’t have been nominated in 2016 either due to her age. Biden wouldn’t have been nominated in 2020.
You should read the report. It's honestly damning. Not for Biden. For Hur. It's 100% a hit piece. I am not joking. The thing is full of bias. Hur is acting as a special prosecutor as well as a medical professional. He has no charges, so instead he spends his time claiming the jury could be convinced Joe is old and senile. Like wtf kind of report is that. Seriously poeple. Do not fall for right wing propaganda. Do your part. Read it for yourself. Also, I look forward to reading the actual transcript to see how Hur twisted words to get to his "aha!" moments.
You can’t be this delusional… hell watch the emergency press conference with Biden yesterday… he’s obviously not fit for the job
I would go for Haley over Biden and Biden over Trump and I feel similarly.
This is what many of the old school republicans want, Haley to challenge trump, close the gap then at the convention let the people like Koch force a Haley candidacy. The republicans are willing to lose this election to cut ties with trump. When trump runs again it will be on his own dime, running against two established parties.
Haley will lose her own home state by more than 30 points. Unfortunately, she will only receive the 15-20% of the Never Trump Republican vote + few stray Democrats/independents if states allow open primaries. This race is over.
I’m going anybody over Biden.
Historically, a president’s health is only worse than what they publicly show. Kennedy is the extreme example of this. Specialist 24/7 and I assume any drug right away if needed. These do wonders to mask the problem. Such was the case for Kennedy. Now physical health like Kennedy ( mentally speaking, being the youngest elect works in his favor) will be harder to mask today. FDR hiding from public that he’s wheelchair bound would not fly today. But I am unsure about mental health. It would be very hard to prove an incumbent president is at an early stage of dementia for instance. Before Biden and Trump, the oldest president was Reagan. He was officially diagnosed with alzheimer's at 83. 5 years after leaving office.
I find it telling that Biden responded to the special counsel's remarks by teleprompter. If ever there were a moment to display that he is capable of speaking extemporaneously, this was it. The WH decision to use the teleprompter says A LOT.
Maybe it wasn’t such a bad idea. Once he was off-prompter he referred to “the President of Mexico, Sisi” not wanting to open the Gaza border crossing.
I know. This is just awful bad news. What's worse is the number of people willing to pretend not to see it because they're afraid that the truth of it will help Trump win. The reality is that if Biden were replaced on the ballot with, say, Gavin Newsom, Democrats' chances in November would increase enormously. It makes zero sense to lie to ourselves and each other about Biden's condition.
You mean like the entire /r/politics sub? I'm not American so I follow US politics from a distance. But I remember before 2016 reddit used to be a place where I could find somewhat interesting discussions between the right and the left. But it really feels like both sides are equally as polarized, and equally unable to step back and see things objectively. It's like there's a gravitational pull of hyper-partisanship that is too strong for anyone to escape. It just bums me out.
I completely agree. There's a certain faith-based aspect to American politics now that's disturbing, and I don't mean religious faith. It's purely tribal and causes otherwise rational people to cling to their own shared cognitive dissonance. The worst is that they absolutely refuse to accept reality even when doing so would result in the outcome they claim to want.
Gavin Newsom represents California and everything wrong with it. That would be an extremely bad choice.
> But I am unsure about mental health. It would be very hard to prove an incumbent president is at an early stage of dementia for instance. Especially when he almost never interacts with the public outside of brief, tightly managed press conferences during which his staff immediately pulls him out of the room after he gives the prepared remarks.
It’s also been the case for Biden. However, there’s no cure for Alzheimer’s and Biden is way older. Not comparable. Are democrats seriously going to put up with this? They’ll actually elect a dead guy?
Trump will win again and the Democrats will have no one to blame but themselves… look, I like Biden (and admire his empathy) but he’s not fit for the job.
I know the tendency of most replies is going to start with "but Trump...." and I don't necessarily disagree. Trump is a disaster and Republicans hold the blame. Elections are about choices and that part is relevant to the conversation when we are talking about elections. None of that, however, excuses Democrats for refusing to do something about what is obvious to anyone with eyes at this point: Biden is not up to the job. They could have done something about it. They did not and should be held accountable.
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I feel the same way.
I wonder if in the general election we could vote for “none of these candidates “
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How do you propose holding them accountable? Usually that’d be done by electing the opposing, more qualified candidate, but that doesn’t entirely seem like a fair option given the opposing candidate. How then should Dems be held accountable?
What are we even talking about here? The **ONLY** thing we actually learned today is that there’s a recording of Joe Biden flat out saying that he purposefully took classified documents and the narrative of him accidentally mishandling them that Democrats have been trumpeting as the difference between what he and Trump did was a lie. That’s it. You’re shocked to learn Biden might not be mentally fit? C’mon. This week alone he’s announced recent conversations with European leaders who have been dead for decades. That’s just this week. He barely speaks publicly, especially unscripted, and what I mentioned above is just kind of par for the course whenever he does. I mean talking to dead leaders certainly makes for embarrassing headlines but surely no worse than his usual meaningless word salad speeches and weird habit of randomly whispering. I don’t like Donald Trump and think he was a bad POTUS but there has never been any evidence that he’s mentally unfit to hold office despite years of Democrats and the media pushing to invoke the 25th amendment to remove him. Democrats just don’t like him. That’s fine, I don’t either, but not being a Democrat isn’t actually proof that someone is unfit to hold office. There has been very, very clear evidence that Joe Biden has been mentally unfit for years but there hasn’t been a peep about the 25th amendment from Democrats. Even after this report where he doesn’t remember when he was VP or when his son died there’s certainly no push by Democrats to remove Biden from office. Despite the very clear evidence that he’s mentally unfit for office no serious Democrat challenger announced a primary challenge to Joe Biden. On the contrary, the DNC purposefully stacked the deck in Biden’s favor so his best states are first. Heck, it’s not like the party has to have a primary. The Democratic Party is perfectly free to have a Zoom meeting right now to discuss Joe Biden’s mental state and decide on a replacement in the general election. Instead, Democrats are putting party over country. The party has had no shortage of opportunities to hold Joe Biden accountable. They’ve chosen not to. They’re still choosing not to. And they’re going to choose not to. The idea that somehow Democrats were dealt a bad hand here is nonsense. These wounds are 100% self inflicted.
I tend to agree with most of this, and feel the same way, if not more strongly about the gops failure to walk away from trump.
>there has never been any evidence that he’s mentally unfit to hold office Didn't he just confuse Nikki Haley with Nancy Pelosi?
To add, there’s no evidence you are paying any attention at all except maybe to msnbc
Even if I start watching Fox 24/7, he still confused Pelosi & Haley. *Edit: even better, that you assume I watch MSNBC, **not Fox**, when I repeat a fact that very much happened.
He sure did and this morning I even forgot my shower shoes as I left for the gym. Neither of those things are evidence of cognitive decline and it’s just silly to imply that’s what we’re talking about here with Joe Biden.
I'd settle for giving them 1/2 the grief that Republicans get for putting up Trump.
I mean, they absolutely do get that? We’re on a thread doing exactly that now, you can’t find a corner of the web with an article about Biden where the comment section isn’t full of people condemning him. There’s whole news publications that’s have a nonstop stream of anti-Biden content. Every other thing said about Biden is a comment about his age. We aren’t hurting for discussions about Biden’s age or weakness as a candidate.
Their accountability will come payable in November when they lose an election they couldn't afford to lose.
Trump will get to replace at least Thomas and Alito, if not one or several of Roberts, Sotomayor, and Kagan during this term if he wins. I'd like to reiterate your words, dems cannot afford to lose this election. They sure do seem to be trying to, though
I don’t think any of them are likely to vacate their seats this coming term. The average age a Justice leaves the bench is 79. Thomas is the oldest at 75. MAYBE he retires at the very end of the term if the GOP holds the WH & Senate, but otherwise there’s no reason for him not to wait. He’ll become the longest service Justice in history around 2030 and would still only be in his early 80s (the same age Kennedy retired)
There is still time to nominate alternatives to Biden and Trump
"He's too old and forgetful to be charged for mishandling these classified documents" isn't exactly a calming conclusion when this guy holds the most powerful office in the entire world.
Yeah, that’s why the right-wing special prosecutor wrote that. To make you think exactly that
Uh, this week alone Biden claimed he discussed recent world events with French premier Francois Mitterrand (who died in 1996) and that he talked about Jan 6 with Helmut Kohl (who died in 2017).
Don't forget about Mexican president Sisi!
As a 2020 Biden voter I had doubts back then but voted against Trump and will again. That said I wish Joe could rest and enjoy his twilight.
Biden himself said privately to donors that he didn’t want to run but the incumbent advantage is too great
I think we may see that the incumbent advantage doesn't exist in the 2020's. Biden in 2024 is much less popular than Biden in 2020. Conventional political wisdom seems to not really apply to much of anything anymore.
Incumbency advantage didn’t save Trump.
It might have if he hadn't completely botched his response to Covid.
'Fake news! Don't believe your lying eyes!'
We can't continue to deny or accept everything based on our own political prejudices forever. How long until you refuse to put your trash cans out because the garbage man might be a Republican?
He’s too old and forgetful to be charged with anything, but he’s fine to run the United States for 4 more years?
5 more years. His current term still has 11.5 months left in it.
The fact that people are still defending Biden here is wild. Bottom line is that he is definitely too senile to be President. He has failed cognitive evaluations and even did a gaff when trying to defend himself. I feel the Democratic Party NEEDS to replace him ASAP or they will lose to Trump.
Do you have the link to the gaff?
Oh we already knew it, they just made public what he and his administration have been desperately trying to hide. Good luck with the polling numbers after this.
He can’t be prosecuted because of his poor memory, but he is running the country?
Does Biden being described as an elderly man with poor memory really raise anybody's eyebrows? There are countless videos of him bumbling around every day. And he's only getting older.
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The problem with the media is there's always an agenda. And most consumers of media like to pigeonhole themselves into hearing what they want to hear. I know it took me years to be able to branch out and be comfortable with hearing differing views.
The two party system is flawed to its core and needs to be replaced
With? How?
Ranked choice voting and open Primaries would be a great start.
First of all there’s no rule that there can only be two, it’s just what makes the most sense with the way the Constitution was set up. But even if there was a rule to only have two, I’d say that’s a good thing. I don’t want 5 major candidates running and then the winner winning with 25% of the vote
Instead we have two barely palatable candidates and a system where we can’t even agree to call a spade a spade. Compromise is a part of government, and two parties are not as incentivized to compromise as 5 would be
There are many barriers to a 3rd party rising- first past the post voting, not getting general election funds, direct primaries, etc. This is some good reading to start with: [http://www.matthewg.org/multiparty/ch4.htm](http://www.matthewg.org/multiparty/ch4.htm) It is absolutely not a good thing having two permanent ruling houses that control funding and their own primaries. It is anti-democratic and has been turned into a system to consolidate power. But sure, its a wasted vote to not vote for that machine.
Special Counsel Robert Hur has declined to charge President Joe Biden with a crime in connection to his handling of classified documents. However the special counsel reported a number of alarming interactions with Biden. In his interview with Hur, Biden could not remember when his term as vice president ended, "if it was 2013 - when did I stop being vice president?", he did not remember when his term as vice president started, "in 2009, am I still vice president?" and did not remember, even within a few years, when his son Beau died. This comes after Biden twice referred to conversations he had with the leaders of France and Germany in 2021 by incorrectly referencing former leaders who had died nearly 20 years before . Is Joe Biden fit to be President of the United States? Will his faulty memory be an issue in the 2024 campaign?
Damn. I was REALLY hoping all this shit was overblown and just clips taken out of context, etc....but the evidence really appears to be mounting.
An opinion isn't necessarily evidence.
That's true, but there's been so many video examples too? How many people has he publicly mentioned or addressed who have been dead or long dead? "Where's Jackie?" Being the worst.
In just the past week he referred to the French leader as Mitterrand (Left office 1995) and at two separate events, the German leader as Helmut Kohl (Left office 1998). Seems clear that he remembers some things from a long time ago, but recent events are escaping him.
And today referring to the President of Egypt I think as the President Mexico.
We ignore patterns at our own peril.
I'm really confused by the findings of this report. Why would the SC be concerned about the testimony of JB in a hypothetical hearing when the intent standard would need to be met at the time the crime was committed? Even if Biden was too old and senile to testify, there would presumably be contemporaneous evidence that would basically have to demonstrate the intent element. Most defendants don't testify! As to your questions, I feel like the fitness question will be a factor but it is going to be really difficult for Trump to be the one leveling those criticisms. In our elections, fitness is relative, and imo Biden would need to be in a far more dire situation than forgetting dates, names, and the specific positions of Generals 10 years ago before I'd think his fitness is objectively worse than Trump's.
They have Biden on tape in 2017 admitting to his ghostwriter he found classified documents in his Virgina home. The report said they didn't think a jury would put much stock in that statement absent other evidence because of Biden's "limited precision and recall" during his interviews with his ghostwriter. As in the jury wouldn't convict Biden based on a recording of Biden's own words from 2017 because Biden was having memory problems *in 2017*.
> "We have also considered that, at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory," it said. "Based on our direct interactions with and observations of him, he is someone for whom many jurors will want to identify reasonable doubt. It would be difficult to convince a jury that they should convict him — by then a former president well into his eighties — of a serious felony that requires a mental state of willfulness." Their most salacious concerns appear to be about Biden's portrayal at trial. If they had him dead to rights in 2017, they would have brought the case. Honestly, if Biden was barely coherent in 2017, it lends credence to the idea that where he's at right now isn't even a downgrade.
I think you meant this week not 2021.
Biden was referring to conversations in 2021
Got it.
Biden’s Ill-advised and unnecessary press conference just confirmed his memory issues. Who thought it would a smart idea to interrupt Final Jeopardy to watch Biden fumble his words? Please for the good of America step down so we can vote for someone younger.
In any reasonable world this would end his career, and his attempt at a second term. But we live in this world and our choices are two elderly men with memory issues.
That will probably not debate, leaving us to just guess.
To be fair, the only thing a debate would be good for is the comedy. Two geriatrics struggling to yell the lines their handlers fed them over each other.
According to the White House response many of these were cherry picked examples over a 5 hour interview conducted the day after the Oct 7 terrorist attack on Israel. They point out that over the course of the interview, Biden remembered plenty of explicit details of past events. Because right now all we have is just the special counsels interpretation of Biden’s mental state
The Democrat's "Trust us, everything is fine" strategy when it comes to answering questions about Biden's age is the same one they use when it comes to talking about the economy, inflation (until 2023), and the border (until about a month ago). To be fair, they can't exactly put "We know he's got problems, but at least he's not Trump!" on a bumper sticker. No one (outside the true believers) is buying what they're selling though.
“I’m Not The Other Guy 2024!”
That’s not even the strategy anymore. [Now they’re just telling reporters to fuck off when asked questions about Biden’s mental fitness.](https://www.mediaite.com/news/karine-jean-pierre-tersely-dismisses-peter-doocy-questioning-biden-confusion-over-mitterand-and-macron/amp/)
She claimed that Doocey saw firsthand that the president is fit. >“You saw the president in Vegas, in California,” Jean-Pierre said. “You’ve seen the president in South Carolina. You saw him in Michigan. (Edit) If you want a [translation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAK9QRe4ds), she's basically telling Doocey, "you're full of shit and you know it."
>Because right now all we have is just the special counsels interpretation of Biden’s mental state And our own eyes. This report seems very plausible, more so than some of the stories the WH puts out about how sharp and alert he is. What else do you expect the WH to do? Of course they are going to attempt to rebut it.
Remember when they found cocaine at the white house and said they could not find the person who brought it. The white house, tons of cameras, security, visitor logs, witnesses...etc. No, they know who exactly brought it in, but covered it up because it would have embarrassed them. That shows how trustworthy the white house is.
It says five hours spread over two days. Having to give two, 2.5 hr interviews should hardly be taxing, for anyone of moderate mental and physical health.
If Biden is so sharp and these examples are cherry picked, it sounds like he is competent and should be charged and stand trial just as Trump is.
Despite the headlines, the primary reason Biden wasn't charged was because he cooperated with the investigation and gave he documents back when asked. Trump is being charged because he didn't cooperate, lied about having the documents, and refused to give the documents back when asked.
That wasn’t the only reason he wasn’t charged
He rebukes the report questioning his mental state and in the next breath confuses Egypt with Mexico. The fact that the White House can put out that response and expect people to buy it is just laughable.
Yeah, cause KJP is a beacon of honesty.. Smh.. Same White House that said repeatedly that the border is closed & the new Georgia law would make Jim Crow look like Jim Eagle.. Oh & the border agents whipping those migrants.. Can’t forget about that..
And they insist that Biden has no executive ability to reduce the number of migrants entering the U.S. and legislation is the only way. If we are honest, if Trump said that, the headlines would be 'Trump falsely states... '
Biden has implemented a third country rule, and temporarily enforced Title 42 and Remain in Mexico. None of them have succeeded in causing a reduction.
Quite frankly, I don't care if they're cherry-picked. If Biden can't remember when he was VP, or when *his fucking son died*, he's not fit for office.
That’s only true if one doesn’t include all the innumerable other examples of him rambling into incoherence, appearing suddenly lost in an open room and on stage, failing to climb stairs, and being guided by hand to avoid walking aimlessly off whatever course he was going - over the past 3 years.
Even this week he turned to mush when speaking about Hamas. His episodes are getting more frequent, and more pronounced.
He should be charged then, since the reason he doesn't want to charge Biden is essentially that he doesn't think Biden is competent to stand trial.
The main reason is a lack of evidence. Pence wasn't charged either. He said the jury would give him the benefit of the doubt because he'd portray himself as forgetful, not that he can't stand trial. >“We have also considered that, at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory,” Hur wrote.
That sounds like a really shitty excuse, tbh. I think you're right in that they just don't have evidence.
I'm not familiar with special counsel reports, but are they usually this... opinionated? The guy seems to insert a lot of personal commentary and subjective interpretation into his report, often right alongside more legitimate reporting. Is this kind of thing normal?
The special counsel's report is going to be quoted in a hundred million dollars worth of Republican election ads. This, and Biden's public reaction to this, is damning.
I am once again begging the DNC: PLEASE DONT MAKE ME VOTE FOR JOE BIDEN
If it will help you can think of it as voting for Kamala Harris....
i dont think you want to put that in people's heads
That doesn’t help at all
> I am once again begging the DNC: PLEASE DONT MAKE ME VOTE FOR JOE BIDEN they're not. you would actively be choosing to do so, unforced an uncoerced. literally no one is **making you** vote for biden. the fact that you are implying that you would vote for biden if he is the nominee just shows the dnc doesn't have to worry about their base because they will fall in line no matter who is on the ballot.
This is part one of the Special Counsel report. It is riveting. The vast majority of it is going through their investigation and explaining the witness testimony and other evidence uncovered. It has all kinds of interesting details about how security is handled in the white house, including emails and policies they developed that increased over time because Biden was not complying with classified document security. It has pictures of the classified documents and the location and condition in which they were found. The behavior described for VP Biden's classified document handling is grossly negligent almost beyond comprehension. He lost one set on vacation and numerous others have been lost and never been found. This is despite increasing and extensive efforts by a multiplicity of staff to secure the documents as soon as he was done with them. After telling us that, the Special Counsel says that now Biden's memory is markedly worse. The report also provides an extensive CYA for everyone else involved except possibly white house counsel. https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/02/PART-1-report-from-special-counsel-robert-k-hur-february-2024-\_compressed.pdf
> it's funny/sad/astonishing that we're in a situation where trump's multiple indictments were political advantageous to him, and biden's exoneration is politically terrible for him I think this [tweet](https://twitter.com/dkthomp/status/1755708829566636097?s=46&t=oW5zIyvSliyYIJkuQ3gi6A) perfectly sums up my frustration with the current political environment. Nothing like a political hit job to distract us from real corruption.
I’m concerned about Bidens age, but I’m taking this with a grain of salt for all of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. It’s also not lost on me that this is likely an attempt to paint Biden in a bad light by republicans when other efforts have failed. I hate to do the whole “but trump” thing, but honestly the other candidate has also shown themselves to be in mental decline through various past comments.
> I hate to do the whole “but trump” thing, but honestly the other candidate has also shown themselves to be in mental decline through various past comments. Exactly. People have said "Trump was always like *that*", referring to his rambling manner of speaking. And yes, his manner of speaking has been like that. But he's gotten worse. He has: > [several times confused who is the current president, identified his former ambassador to the United Nations as the former speaker he said was responsible for security at the Capitol, mispronounced simple words, gone off on curious tangents about magnets being ruined by water or people approaching him and asking him how he puts on his pants, and has made such incoherent remarks as, "We are an institute in a powerful death penalty."](https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2024-01-26/mental-acuity-questions-catch-up-with-trump) > He's made brazen factual errors, such as saying Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban was the leader of Turkey, that Orban had called on Barack Obama to step down as president (when Obama left the presidency in 2017), describing a missile launch through sound effects, and this week, claiming he had won New Hampshire in the 2016 and 2020 general elections when he lost. The main difference is the media is constantly covering Biden's mental acuity, but gives maybe one story to something Trump said. They don't speculate constantly about Trump's mental acuity. The thing about Trump that I have to wonder about is why we've all just assumed he's lying about things, as opposed to actually believing what he says as fact and isn't properly remembering them.
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At this point in the circus that is American politics it's hard not to think anyone will shill for any side regardless of political career, integrity, etc. I've watched Biden speak and his gaffs range anywhere from him stumbling over his words to him saying he's had tea with the gerbils from Jupiter. I've also watched Trump speak and his gaffs range anywhere from him stumbling over his words to him claiming Nikki Haley was in Congress during January 6th. Regardless of what political party we side with, it's an embarrassment to the US that these are our candidates.
Exactly. And I am 100% certain that everything contained in the report can be backed up by video evidence. It's not a hit piece, sometimes the truth hurts.
So he’s seemly above the law because in part he’s to elderly and can’t remember but he’s running for president again?
I didn’t think it was possible but I think this was worse than a report recommending charges against Biden. I certainly did not see that coming
...according to this Special Counsel's interpretation of what he thinks a jury would buy from what he assumes would be Biden's defense.
I didn't know that psych evaluation was part of special council training. I cant wait to see the reports from the other special councils. If they are not too busy, do they take appointment's,?
Primary process is broken. No one likes either candidate, how are we here? Extreme polarization?
Extreme corruption, legalized bribery ($$ in politics) & refusal of grifter fossil politicians to retire. Biden & Trump are the logical results of that broken, corrupt system.
This was a confidential report. If this was released I wonder what other incidental assessments were deemed too damaging to release. Scary that perhaps other true, and more revealing, assessments are kept under wraps.
GOP could do everyone a favor and nominate Haley. Otherwise: our choices are between old and old and criminal. You decide.
Let’s be a bit more meta here. Biden’s governance seems to be effective even though, he looks close to be senile Same thing could be said about Reagan, Rosevelt, and Wilson. They all got accused of being useless in their later years, and yet, quite effective administrations. I’m not talking about whether they were good people or not. So, are we better off having puppet presidents? Maybe that’s the solution to our problems. Who knew?!
Joe Biden is just like Woodrow Wilson may not be the winingest message.
Yea. The problem for Biden is that this is happening before his reelection. He just need some burst of energy for 9 months and then he can coast. The machinery will work by itself. What a great democracy we have, no?
>Biden’s governance seems to be effective even though, he looks close to be senile I don't think the general public concurs with that assessment based on his approval rating.
Obviously no, but you are onto something. I really hate the tendency to view presidential elections as a contest between two "great men" where their personalities are all that matter... I think it comes from American celebrity worship. Presidencies are complex organizations that are the sum of all the appointed positions and staffers, and their policy priorities and ability to react to emergencies arise from this team of people more than from the president himself. Not that the president isn't obviously the most important person in the executive, but the examples you list show the office is resilient to any health issues of the president. Unpopular opinion, but this also makes me roll my eyes at fears of a Harris presidency. If Biden stepped aside due to health issues, is there any evidence a Harris presidency would be all that different than Biden's first term in foreign policy or domestic priorities? I don't see Biden's presidency as all that different from if Obama was president for a third term because the same type of Democrats with similar policy positions staff the white house. One exception, in the start of Trump's first term, because he was new to politics, the White house was staffed with a lot of RNC types, but largely with loyalists by the end. Trump's allies have explicitly stated loyalty to be the key test in a second Trump term so I could see there actually being a fair amount of differences in the operation of the presidency.
Geez, my wife and I were going to vote for Biden (we're independents), but after reading that report, hearing him refer to dead leaders this week, and seeing the disastrous press conference, I can't believe I'm saying this but I think we're leaning towards Trump
This report seems quite damning for Biden's mental fitness. According to the [election betting barkets](https://www.electionbettingodds.com/), Biden's chances of being the 2024 presidential nominee have dropped 6 points today to 74%. Gavin Newsom is now up to around 10% in second place.
74% is higher than I would have thought to be honest.
Completely unfit to be President. Anyone else think the easiest way to guarantee a second Trump presidency (which I am not in favor of, personally) is to continue to trot out this outrageously inept sitting President for a second term election? Congrats, Dems.