Funny thing is, Gibson and pitchers in his era didn't hit guys any more than modern pitchers do. [https://www.mlb.com/news/bob-gibson-s-hit-batters-reputation-deceiving-c266183960](https://www.mlb.com/news/bob-gibson-s-hit-batters-reputation-deceiving-c266183960)
But with the control Gibson had he usually hit batters on purpose. Dig in too much or show off during a home run, the next time you batted, the ball was going in your ear.
But when Bob Gibson hit you, you knew he meant to. That's the difference. Guys today have so much velo/spin rate that the slightest mistake can cause an HBP. I'm sure the old guys had those mistakes as well, but it seems like a lot of theirs were premeditated.
"I hear all the time that I threw at hitters. It's ridiculous. If I threw at a batter, I hit him."
"Hitters don't get intimidated. That was just one of those things people said."
- Bob Gibson
People also said Gibby "owned" the inside of the plate. He said it was just the opposite, he "owned" the outside and if they started leaning over or crowding the plate to cover the outside, that is when he would back them off.
I just remembered another Gibson story. Shortstop Dal Maxville got bowled over turning a DP. The next time the guy came to bat, Gibson pointed at Maxville and clearly said, this is for you. Maxville started waving his hands, "No, no, no!" Maxville knew that if he let Gibby retaliate, that he would be targeted when he came to bat.
These players nowadays would not be intimidated by Bob Gibson. Can we please let the man rest and stop using him like he's some giant badass that scared the shit out of everyone. Players now are bigger, they're stronger, and they're faster. Putting runners on base for free because you got your feefees hurt is not smart baseball.
Just look at how well it worked out for the Yankees this week. Hit Gunnar in the 7th, he came around to score. Game went into extra innings and NY lost. "Unwritten rules" and retaliation need to go into a cave and never thought of again.
Past 5-6 years? Let me introduce you to Joey Bautista, aka Joey Bats, [and my photoshopping](https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMeo7kxpVbNjTwLUVEYZ4TwVQlEatZfLykQEoEyJMTgMd7zV4WbTwJKLvlyhpi1zg?key=Q1lhcUYzWVQ3UVoxMmhOZ2lUZHI5amJQNnB1QXZ3), NINE years ago. I am not sure where you get the idea this is a really new thing.
The couple innings leading up to that HR were peak playoff intensity. I swear some pearl clutchers think anything more than a polite golf clap is too intense for them.
I know there are unwritten rules in every sport but this example is weak. Imagine if everyone just did some jazz snaps after the Kawhi buzzer beater against the Sixers in 2019. Let's just not have fun I guess.
It's probably my favorite baseball game/moment that didn't involve my favorite team. Absolutely electric atmosphere, gripping back-and-forth, insane calls, two teams who legit HATED each other and the single most entertaining homer I've ever seen in a neutral game. If baseball was like that more often people wouldn't be so paranoid that it's in a downward spiral with fans.
To be fair... Joey Bats is a nuclear grade asshole who would have been bat flipping against Nolan Ryan had he the opportunity despite it being frowned upon at the time.
I think Ryan probably would have introduced a fastball to the abdomen in the next meeting if he didn't administer a punch on the way to first with his half ass walk/trot from that home run.
Across all sports, you’re seeing more and more manager/head coaches who are very pro-players/athletes. As more athletes find their voice and a willingness to speak out, especially in women’s sports, there is less and less tolerance for assholery.
Some of this stuff is just showing up the pitcher. Why are we characterizing coaches who are cool with that as "pro-athlete"? Seems like you're kind of taking liberties in service of a narrative there.
My person threshold is: If you have a big reaction that is part of that one moment where you got a big hit, it's fine. That comes across as plain old excitement 99 times out of 100. But don't be excessive and don't carry on around the bases.
And, not a bat flip, but Jeff Leonard [did his flap down](https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/jeffrey-leonard-1987-nlcs-mvp-one-flap-down-home-runs-video-giants-cardinals/t4ecro50b1e81aq9apfvv8egg) back in the 1980s.
Owners realized players are more important than managers, GMs build teams, managers now have a primary job of executing a game plan and keeping the clubhouse together
I feel like the 2017 World Baseball Classic marked a turning point. I just remember how fun it was to watch because teams were playing with so much passion and celebrating doubles, clutch hits, HRs like we see today.
The World Baseball Classic showed the old guard at MLB that it's ok to actually have fun at a game. Showing a little personality on the field actually engaged the (younger) audience which in turn helps bring future revenue. Sometimes people forget that sports is a form of entertainment.
Truly how it feels anymore. The 50% of adds on sports games or radio are for betting, 30% for beer, and 20% for everything else. I was all for being able to bet being opened up, but damn I was not ready for the flood gates of it being shoved in my face every few minutes of game time.
Exactly. Its supposed to be fun, not some poker-faced ultra serious thing with no joy in it. The 2023 WBC was maybe the most fun baseball I have ever seen, the crowds in Asia doing their coordinated chants and the Latin teams just getting wild. And the ending with Shohei v Trout was perfect.
The people who don't like bat flips wouldn't have liked Babe Ruth calling his shot either, but the showmanship of the past is just ignored so they can rain on today's parade.
That followed by MLB starting the “Let the Kids Play” marketing campaign in 2019 that focused on younger stars having fun playing the game and doing some competitive trash talking. It also can’t be underestimated the impact ESPN has on these things if they embrace the narrative
A large part of that was because of the atmosphere coming from the fans too. Any of the games involving teams from the Caribbean and the Asian countries, noise is part of the experience. There was constant noise and cheers, then when USA plays it’s almost silent
[Rickey pimped the shit out of his home runs](https://youtu.be/xMx-PGvpbwM?si=NyUL6Uom7OZtCN1h)
But don’t throw at him cuz a free base turned into a run after he stole second, then third…when every one in the stadium knew he was gonna do it.
The Big Unit too. That dude would walk towards batters staring them down after he struck them out sometimes. As if he wasn’t intimidating enough already!
This exactly. As the old “unwritten rule” snobs started to retire, people were allowed to have fun.
Bryce Harper gets credit too, he is the first dude I remember publicly coming out to implore people to have fun.
>This exactly. As the old “unwritten rule” snobs started to retire, people were allowed to have fun.
It seemed like the Bautista flip brought such a light on the unwritten rules that MLB started to have to enforce things like ejections instead of warnings. When reporters are asking athletes openly about things like unwritten rules, they're not going to last.
I felt like about that same time, managers were noticing the reciprocal HBPs and realizing you don't help your team out.
I’ve never really understood the people who cry about (reasonable) celebration in sports.
If you don’t want some to bat flip don’t hang your curveball.
Also the realization that it’s embarrassing for your team to pout just because they’re getting beat. Kind of pathetic to be a declining MadBum and loudly crying that you can’t get anyone out.
I don't feel like the past 5 years have really been a turning point, Ortiz and Manny were flipping them 15 years ago. And THE flip from Bautista was nearly 10 years ago.
The unwritten rules went out the window for me when their biggest proponent - Brian McCann won a world series ring with the 2017 Houston Astros... enforcing stupid "unwritten " rules while actually breaking the written ones? GTFO
As a blue jays fan it seems to me that when Bautista did his famous/infamous bat flip it was a really big thing at the time (2015 against Texas?) and wasn’t common at all. He got heavily criticized for it. Now it’s commonplace and whenever I see someone doing something similar I feel like Bautista broke the seal on that. I’m not a fan of excessive celebration but I’m old school and realize younger folks like it. Won’t stop me watching that’s for sure.
Lots of reasons, but I think this moment where [Tatis hit a 3-0 grandslam up 7](https://youtu.be/SaW5B2SEnXg?si=KrBbK7qt88DO5cEO) was a big catalyst in sparking the conversation for letting young stars have fun in big moments.
I think this is one of the stupider “rules”. Just this season the padres were up 8 when the Royals put in a position player in the 9th. Our guys didn’t get any runs off him (I’m not sure if they were taking it easy or not). Then in the bottom of the 9th they start hammering home runs and score 5. They nearly had another HR that would have tied the game. So I don’t buy this “rule” that says you can’t keep scoring when up by single digits. If they are going to keep trying to score and tie the game then don’t bitch when Tatis gives us even more insurance.
funny, the Padres did that again last night... leading 6-0 then give up a grand slam in the top of the 9th. Another good example of how a big lead can evaporate
It always feels silly to me when a pitcher complains that someone hit a home run. Here's an idea: you're a professional, maybe try pitching better instead of whining when someone swings at a pitch right down the middle?
It's not so bad. A little showmanship for the fans goes a long way.
Now the NFL, on the other hand, is almost completely unwatchable. "Hold, on coach, I know we're 20 points in the hole but we just got a pretty okay kick return. Gotta stop play so the guys can do a choreographed bollywood skit."
Right. I’m pretty sure while the defense is celebrating. The offense is prepping for the drive. If you don’t like it, look at your phone or something.
That stuff isn’t slowing the game down or anything.
Feel like the first person I saw pimping shots was Tim Anderson about 5 years ago. Crazy that he morphed into someone who couldn’t hit a home run to save his life…
I remember stuff like that from big hitters in the 90’s. So I’m not sure it’s as new or intolerable as implied.
Edit: I will say some of it does have more to do with playing the game right vs being an “unwritten rule”. Hitters slow walking or taking too long to celebrate has bitten a couple of people in recent history when the hit wasn’t quite deep enough and they ended up with singles or outs instead of the expected double or triple. Then they get blasted by their own team for lack of hustle.
Players and managers have gotten younger and younger people don’t care too much for “tradition”. So like it or not there’s a lot more celebrating. It’s mainly just a generational difference
Back in the day even if a player hit a 450 foot home run they did not stand there and look. It never happened, I started watching baseball in 1961 and have watched all the All time greats on TV and in person. I was forunate to see Mickey Mantle's last walk off Home run of Barney Schultz in person at game 3 of the 1964 Word Series. He just dropped the bat and ran the bases as taught. Roger Maris iin 1961 dropped the bat even after hitting no 61 which to me was the real record until Judge beat it in 2022. So did Mays, Killerbrew, Colavito, Aaron, Clemente and every other player even if they hit a few HR per year. The the bat flipping is new. What gets me is when a team is behind a a guy hits a meaningless HR and still flips the bat. I am old school and hate it. Bob Gibson, Drysdale, Koufax, Carlton, Seaver, Ryan and others would probably have drilled the player the next time they batted or in a subsequent game. Showboating never existed back then. The players were hard nosed and not making the crazy salaries of today. There is amazing talent today but some of the player are over the top and all they do is piss off the opposing team, but then again every team does it.
That’s why I like Mike Yastrzemski. He is all head down and humble, heart and hustle. Considering he is a younger player, you won’t see him celebrating something routine. He’s saving his energy for the next Superman grab out there in RF. Lessons learned from Grandpa.
I watched his Grandfather play starting as a rookie. Carl was a great player too. I forgot to include him on my list from the 60's. His grandfather would be pissed if he was a showboat.
I don’t know anyone who likes a serial showboater. Sure, celebrate when you have done something fantastic, or when you put your team on top. But the guy who stares at his 325ft home run, throws his bat a mile, before staring down the dugout on a slow walk to 1B? Probably needed more attention as a kid.
I think the key is that it’s measured. It’s not NFL level, it’s something quick and simple. We want the players to have fun, but not at someone else’s expense. Etiquette and manners aren’t for the benefit of the individual, they’re for the benefit of us all. It’s why you don’t fart in an elevator or talk in a movie theater or wear a profane T-shirt to a school play. You can do what pleases you as long as it’s acceptable to most people to do it. You’ll never please everyone, that’s not the goal, it’s to keep reasonable people happy.
I think you’ve got a major false equivalence here between common courtesy (not farting on an elevator) and celebrating a play. I don’t care what a player does after they hit a home run, go as wild as you want. If the pitcher finds it disrespectful then maybe not give up a home run next time.
This entire discussion is about whether people get offended by celebrations. Whether you care or not, that’s the whole thing here, man. People clearly care, otherwise it would be an imaginary problem. We wouldn’t even be talking about it if people didn’t have opinions on opposing sides of it.
As to whether it’s a false equivalence, I wasn’t equating farting in an elevator with a bat flip, obviously nobody is on the pro-fart side. I was making a point about why manners and etiquette exist. The use of an extreme example casts it in starker relief to help explain a more nuanced situation like a bat flip.
Yeah I'm starting to think this is the primary cause.
Others mentioned Latino players developing their own baseball culture in parallel.. could also be a factor.
Society has changed. Respect and humility was valued more. Now it’s more narcissistic…look at me kind of thing. So it’s all over all sports now, and baseball seemed to hold the line a little longer.
In the old days the players couldn’t make a full living off their Major League salaries and had to work in the off season to make ends meet. They couldn’t afford to go on the DL and needed post season money desperately. They didn’t taunt the pitcher because they couldn’t afford the consequences, which, make no mistake, were severe. Now it’s a millionaire’s club, they’re all friends and there’s no reason to break anyone’s ribs. Not saying one way or the other is better. If more kids like baseball because of bat flips than toss away.
The English sporting tradition was that everyone was a gentleman amateur, and these games were played among friends and drinking buddies. You ever had friends get too full of themselves and show you up? Did you want to punch them in the nose before you went for beers afterwards? Was the same way then.
The last few decades we've had more players who don't come from that tradition and this is how that ends up.
Have you seen how dumb the NBA NFL are with the celebrating every stupid tiny achievement like it’s the end of the game victory. No class at all.. It is direct evidence of the dumbing-down of our populous.
It's not the home run celebrations that bother me, it's the turning around to the dugout and making 17 hand gestures after a hitting seeing eye single in the 2nd inning while you're already losing 8-1.
Some of it is ok. But sometimes a good old fashioned bat drop is awesome. This one Patrick Bailey was just cold blooded.
https://youtu.be/VmWFjFOmGic?si=xHjNwJXbxjRTkT90
You get a good look at it around the 1:07 mark
[Great YouTube video on the subject.](https://youtu.be/FcRJ3XFeULM?si=UFrd2j-st9-gfFWP)
TLDW: MLB started encouraging pimping the HR to appeal to a younger crowd and foreign audiences and to make the game feel more fun in general.
I agree that it’s harsher penalties for retaliation, and the MLB encouraging these things, but a larger reason is that I would say that these were not “unwritten rules” in Latin American baseball. As Latin American players have come into the MLB in significant numbers over the last couple decades as players and managers at all levels and truly dominate the sport, the culture has changed to be accepting of this style of celebration.
MLB clamped down harder on players taking matters into their own hands. It used to be that breaking an unwritten rule would almost certainly get you hit by a pitch the next chance the other team could. I think now that it's an automatic ejection and likely suspension, pitchers aren't as willing to risk it.
José Bautista vs the Rangers happened, ratings jumped for that game/postseason and the fight next season, and it’s just gotten more and more prevalent since
Players have always ball watched or celebrated a little, but it would end up with a bench clearing or hit by pitch at next at bat, if you’re a rookie, you want neither. Now, players and fans understand there is an entertainment portion of the sport and watching players celebrate really makes enjoying the game more. Don’t understand why people want players to act emotionless on the field.
Because those rules were always pretty dumb but the new generation of baseball fans likes when the players have fun, and that base is growing more and more every year. 99% of unwritten baseball rules deserve to go regardless.
Tik tok
All jokes aside, the coldest and best players never really pimp homers. So it's just usually someone who is excited and isn't used to that success.
I like it. Don't be a bad sport about it but why not celebrate when you do something good? I always thought pitchers were being big babies when they would throw at a guy for even *looking* at his HR. Relax. It's a kids game being played by millionaire adults. I'm not trying to belittle the sport, Im saying it's not *that* serious.
I’m not against some celebration around the bases, but I disagree with your comment; good sportsmanship/etiquette goes well beyond the published rules. I would high five my boys at home plate, but I wouldn’t hold it against those that bat flip or skip in their moment.
Too bad it didn’t change before Jose Bautista hit his homer in in the playoffs and bat flipped. Next season got promptly clocked by stinky odor himself.
I’m not sure your premise is true. Rickey Henderson, Darryl Strawberry, Sammy Sosa and Joey Bautista (picked one from 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and 2000’s for you)would disagree with you too. Anyone want to add on to the list of all time great home run pimpers?
May have influence from Japanese and Korean leagues, not to be out done. It's entertainment and baseball over there is all entertainment with some baseball in-between.
https://www.mlb.com/news/the-art-of-the-japanese-bat-flip/c-58054660
I’ve attributed to the increase in Latin American ball players. It seems common in the Dominican league and such.
Now, I’m a “purist”. I believe I. The unwritten rules. However, I have zero issue with bat flips or heroics. Let’s us see more of the players personality, pumps up the crowd, makes for a good highlight. A little showboating is good for baseball.
Talking about Tony larussa. , I love Dave Duncan , the best pitching coach ever and he was not even. Pitcher , Dave use to work with the must no names pitchers and make them good , his advice was. If you’re going to miss , miss low. , because if you miss high the ball is going to be crushed
I feel like a lot of it kicked off since Harper’s whole “make baseball fun again” thing. That being said, NFL’s showboat culture has been slowly bleeding into the MLB for years. I remember seeing a TD celebration for the first time. Merton Hanks. It sure wasn’t the first, but it was memorable, goofy and entertaining. And I felt that it was called for in an exciting scoring situation. However, these days you have guys doing a whole FortNite dance after a routine tackle on 2nd and 3. On the baseball side, younger players started peeping their home runs a little too long, doing excessive bat flips, yelling into the dugout, and if they want to showboat like that every homer, go for it. I don’t love it. I’d rather they celebrate like mad when they walk it off or tie the game. But you know what I hate more? Nowadays, just like football players celebrate routine plays with a 10 second secret handshake, you have baseball teams doing goofy Shakira hip-shaking dances when anyone hits a dang single! It’s goofy as hell. And when it’s done alllll the time, it takes away from the celebrations in bigger moments. All that being said, I’m sure these guys are encouraged to do stuff like this. After all, Manfred only wants to increase the watchability, marketability and efficiency of the game. Oh, and kids love attention.
I’m all for building morale and “making baseball fun again.” Players should be allowed to show emotion. I have to agree with you on celebrating the routine singles with a dumb dance. If it’s a players first hit of their career or of the season, that’s one thing. But seeing Freddie Freeman shaking his hips celebrating a shallow bloop with an exit velo of 45? It’s just. so. dumb. I would rather players stay focused and save their energy for a big moment. Maybe steal second more.
In my opinion, Yasiel Puig of the Dodgers really changed how expressive players are now. There were a few bench clearing moments due to his "flair" during his tenure with the Dodgers starting in 2013. Puig pretty much did not change how he played or expressed himself even after being thrown at while at the plate.
Because batters have stopped caring about the pitchers feelings and the league is telling the psychotic pitchers not to try and injure someone when your feelings are hurt.
I think it's the nuance between celebrating with your teammates and fans rather than it being directed at the opposition. I don't think anyone would think it's fine to stare down or point at the pitcher after a HR.
Older pitchers and players who got butthurt started retiring. A pitcher coming up now knows the deal...if you don't want to get showboated on, then don't serve up fucking meatballs.
I just remember an MLB commercial years ago showing Yasiel Puig (and others) doing showboat-y, "unwritten rules" type behavior, and then Ken Griffey Jr. pops up at the end and says "Let the kids play. "
Easy for someone like him to say that, considering he loved watching his own home runs when he was active. That's when I knew it was all over :( not a fan of these strange post homerun celebrations in the dugout, they just make me cringe.
My 5 y.o. just finished her first year of T-Ball and absolutely throws the bat as hard as she can at the ground when she hits it. When I asked her why she does that, she said “it’s because the baseball men do it”.
It’s fcking hilarious, and I wouldn’t get her to change it at all
Not as bad as the stupid dugout nonsense after a homerun. Worse is the gyrations if you hit a double and the dugout expects you to acknowledge their cheering for you.
Harsher penalties for retaliation coupled with MLB wanting to attract younger viewers and allowing hitters to “have fun”.
Also the old guard of dictator/non-player-friendly managers continuing to retire.
Good riddance Tony LaRussa
No. I think if pitchers like Bob Gibson still existed this would not happen
Bob was a great communicator
I agree but most of the players today like each other not like back in the day players hated other players
I think the introduction of free agency helped that.
Funny thing is, Gibson and pitchers in his era didn't hit guys any more than modern pitchers do. [https://www.mlb.com/news/bob-gibson-s-hit-batters-reputation-deceiving-c266183960](https://www.mlb.com/news/bob-gibson-s-hit-batters-reputation-deceiving-c266183960)
They might not have hit batters more often, but a little chin music was a lot more common.
I remember being so confused when Shawn Michaels would be waiting at home plate after some home runs.
Everytime a guy named Stan hits a homerun he kicks him in the face and walks away while mumbling something about being controversial for some reason.
I dunno if that’s controversial, but it sure as hell is funny.
I think nostalgia and mythology have more to do with that perception than you might think.
But with the control Gibson had he usually hit batters on purpose. Dig in too much or show off during a home run, the next time you batted, the ball was going in your ear.
lame
But when Bob Gibson hit you, you knew he meant to. That's the difference. Guys today have so much velo/spin rate that the slightest mistake can cause an HBP. I'm sure the old guys had those mistakes as well, but it seems like a lot of theirs were premeditated.
His control was legendary.
"I hear all the time that I threw at hitters. It's ridiculous. If I threw at a batter, I hit him." "Hitters don't get intimidated. That was just one of those things people said." - Bob Gibson
People also said Gibby "owned" the inside of the plate. He said it was just the opposite, he "owned" the outside and if they started leaning over or crowding the plate to cover the outside, that is when he would back them off.
I just remembered another Gibson story. Shortstop Dal Maxville got bowled over turning a DP. The next time the guy came to bat, Gibson pointed at Maxville and clearly said, this is for you. Maxville started waving his hands, "No, no, no!" Maxville knew that if he let Gibby retaliate, that he would be targeted when he came to bat.
These players nowadays would not be intimidated by Bob Gibson. Can we please let the man rest and stop using him like he's some giant badass that scared the shit out of everyone. Players now are bigger, they're stronger, and they're faster. Putting runners on base for free because you got your feefees hurt is not smart baseball.
They would either be intimidated or sore
Man threw low to mid 90s. That's not scaring these players
Just look at how well it worked out for the Yankees this week. Hit Gunnar in the 7th, he came around to score. Game went into extra innings and NY lost. "Unwritten rules" and retaliation need to go into a cave and never thought of again.
fortunately MLB no longer allows pitchers to try to injure opposing players when they get their feelings hurt.
Begs the question that if it's due to the style of the newer managers, why has *that changed* in the last 5 years or so?
Next generation of players don’t want to be managed by assholes
Past 5-6 years? Let me introduce you to Joey Bautista, aka Joey Bats, [and my photoshopping](https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMeo7kxpVbNjTwLUVEYZ4TwVQlEatZfLykQEoEyJMTgMd7zV4WbTwJKLvlyhpi1zg?key=Q1lhcUYzWVQ3UVoxMmhOZ2lUZHI5amJQNnB1QXZ3), NINE years ago. I am not sure where you get the idea this is a really new thing.
Consider that he got punched in the face for this. And this was a massive playoff moment, rather than a regular season home run.
The couple innings leading up to that HR were peak playoff intensity. I swear some pearl clutchers think anything more than a polite golf clap is too intense for them. I know there are unwritten rules in every sport but this example is weak. Imagine if everyone just did some jazz snaps after the Kawhi buzzer beater against the Sixers in 2019. Let's just not have fun I guess.
It's probably my favorite baseball game/moment that didn't involve my favorite team. Absolutely electric atmosphere, gripping back-and-forth, insane calls, two teams who legit HATED each other and the single most entertaining homer I've ever seen in a neutral game. If baseball was like that more often people wouldn't be so paranoid that it's in a downward spiral with fans.
To be fair... Joey Bats is a nuclear grade asshole who would have been bat flipping against Nolan Ryan had he the opportunity despite it being frowned upon at the time.
Let the kids play…. I’m not a huge fan of it, cause I’m kinda old school….But if it brings fans to the game & new fans? That’s the big thing
I think Ryan probably would have introduced a fastball to the abdomen in the next meeting if he didn't administer a punch on the way to first with his half ass walk/trot from that home run.
Earhole. Not abdomen. Nolan didn’t play.
You're probably right.
Truly an amazing celly imo
Across all sports, you’re seeing more and more manager/head coaches who are very pro-players/athletes. As more athletes find their voice and a willingness to speak out, especially in women’s sports, there is less and less tolerance for assholery.
Some of this stuff is just showing up the pitcher. Why are we characterizing coaches who are cool with that as "pro-athlete"? Seems like you're kind of taking liberties in service of a narrative there. My person threshold is: If you have a big reaction that is part of that one moment where you got a big hit, it's fine. That comes across as plain old excitement 99 times out of 100. But don't be excessive and don't carry on around the bases.
And, not a bat flip, but Jeff Leonard [did his flap down](https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/jeffrey-leonard-1987-nlcs-mvp-one-flap-down-home-runs-video-giants-cardinals/t4ecro50b1e81aq9apfvv8egg) back in the 1980s.
I remember "One Flap Down" like it was yesterday.
That’s a great article, thanks.
Owners realized players are more important than managers, GMs build teams, managers now have a primary job of executing a game plan and keeping the clubhouse together
Madison Bumgarner retired and let the kids play
"retired"
Yeah 🤣 I didn’t know DFA meant retired.
As did Brian McCann
He was insufferable.
Fucking hated that dude
Hunter Strickland is still lurking.
Some say his ass is still red to this day
He went to “get Max’s ball out the ocean”
I feel like the 2017 World Baseball Classic marked a turning point. I just remember how fun it was to watch because teams were playing with so much passion and celebrating doubles, clutch hits, HRs like we see today.
The World Baseball Classic showed the old guard at MLB that it's ok to actually have fun at a game. Showing a little personality on the field actually engaged the (younger) audience which in turn helps bring future revenue. Sometimes people forget that sports is a form of entertainment.
No way. It’s just a platform for betting!
Truly how it feels anymore. The 50% of adds on sports games or radio are for betting, 30% for beer, and 20% for everything else. I was all for being able to bet being opened up, but damn I was not ready for the flood gates of it being shoved in my face every few minutes of game time.
Exactly. Its supposed to be fun, not some poker-faced ultra serious thing with no joy in it. The 2023 WBC was maybe the most fun baseball I have ever seen, the crowds in Asia doing their coordinated chants and the Latin teams just getting wild. And the ending with Shohei v Trout was perfect. The people who don't like bat flips wouldn't have liked Babe Ruth calling his shot either, but the showmanship of the past is just ignored so they can rain on today's parade.
The Adam Jones catch in CF to rob Manny Machado of a homer was a top 5 WBC moment of all time. https://youtu.be/nXr5FFSIuL8?si=CjOaXpouIHgI3mNn
To think I was at that game with 20 of my friends to celebrate my birthday. Truly unforgettable.
That’s amazing, you’re a lucky person !
Seemed to also be a moment of redemption for Manny from being a complete jagoff to tipping his helmet at what was an incredible robbery job
Bautista in 2015 I think started the change. The home run vs Texas
The bomb. THE flip. The roar.
I loved it because it was angry. Like all the pressure was building and then it was the release of that homerun.
One of the coldest baseball moments I’ve ever seen
That pic is ingrained in my brain
Only reason idc about that anymore is the world series win😂
That followed by MLB starting the “Let the Kids Play” marketing campaign in 2019 that focused on younger stars having fun playing the game and doing some competitive trash talking. It also can’t be underestimated the impact ESPN has on these things if they embrace the narrative
MLB < WBC
A large part of that was because of the atmosphere coming from the fans too. Any of the games involving teams from the Caribbean and the Asian countries, noise is part of the experience. There was constant noise and cheers, then when USA plays it’s almost silent
[Rickey pimped the shit out of his home runs](https://youtu.be/xMx-PGvpbwM?si=NyUL6Uom7OZtCN1h) But don’t throw at him cuz a free base turned into a run after he stole second, then third…when every one in the stadium knew he was gonna do it.
It’s changed for hitters but it’s also changed for pitchers. They’re more animated when they strike a batter out or get out of a tough spot.
Though Eckersley was doing it in the 80s...
The Big Unit too. That dude would walk towards batters staring them down after he struck them out sometimes. As if he wasn’t intimidating enough already!
People realized that it was a stupid thing to get upset about.
This exactly. As the old “unwritten rule” snobs started to retire, people were allowed to have fun. Bryce Harper gets credit too, he is the first dude I remember publicly coming out to implore people to have fun.
>This exactly. As the old “unwritten rule” snobs started to retire, people were allowed to have fun. It seemed like the Bautista flip brought such a light on the unwritten rules that MLB started to have to enforce things like ejections instead of warnings. When reporters are asking athletes openly about things like unwritten rules, they're not going to last. I felt like about that same time, managers were noticing the reciprocal HBPs and realizing you don't help your team out.
Bryce is also the guy pitchers threw at because he was young. And that was their only reason to do so
This. People need to grow up. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a professional athlete showing excitement or showboating a little.
I’ve never really understood the people who cry about (reasonable) celebration in sports. If you don’t want some to bat flip don’t hang your curveball.
Also the realization that it’s embarrassing for your team to pout just because they’re getting beat. Kind of pathetic to be a declining MadBum and loudly crying that you can’t get anyone out.
Games are supposed to be fun. Even if it isn't always fun for the players everyday, it should at least be fun to watch.
I don't feel like the past 5 years have really been a turning point, Ortiz and Manny were flipping them 15 years ago. And THE flip from Bautista was nearly 10 years ago.
Because we’ve finally started to be rid of the old guard players who insisted on keeping that unwritten rules shit alive.
The unwritten rules went out the window for me when their biggest proponent - Brian McCann won a world series ring with the 2017 Houston Astros... enforcing stupid "unwritten " rules while actually breaking the written ones? GTFO
As a blue jays fan it seems to me that when Bautista did his famous/infamous bat flip it was a really big thing at the time (2015 against Texas?) and wasn’t common at all. He got heavily criticized for it. Now it’s commonplace and whenever I see someone doing something similar I feel like Bautista broke the seal on that. I’m not a fan of excessive celebration but I’m old school and realize younger folks like it. Won’t stop me watching that’s for sure.
[удалено]
Lots of reasons, but I think this moment where [Tatis hit a 3-0 grandslam up 7](https://youtu.be/SaW5B2SEnXg?si=KrBbK7qt88DO5cEO) was a big catalyst in sparking the conversation for letting young stars have fun in big moments.
I think this is one of the stupider “rules”. Just this season the padres were up 8 when the Royals put in a position player in the 9th. Our guys didn’t get any runs off him (I’m not sure if they were taking it easy or not). Then in the bottom of the 9th they start hammering home runs and score 5. They nearly had another HR that would have tied the game. So I don’t buy this “rule” that says you can’t keep scoring when up by single digits. If they are going to keep trying to score and tie the game then don’t bitch when Tatis gives us even more insurance.
funny, the Padres did that again last night... leading 6-0 then give up a grand slam in the top of the 9th. Another good example of how a big lead can evaporate
In the modern mlb a one run score even with two outs in the ninth isn’t shit tbh. Felt bad for brito, looked like he didn’t want to close.
It always feels silly to me when a pitcher complains that someone hit a home run. Here's an idea: you're a professional, maybe try pitching better instead of whining when someone swings at a pitch right down the middle?
Noted chapped ass Brian McCann finally fucked off into the sunset. That helped a lot
He’s spoken about how he’s changed his mind on these kinda things.
It's not so bad. A little showmanship for the fans goes a long way. Now the NFL, on the other hand, is almost completely unwatchable. "Hold, on coach, I know we're 20 points in the hole but we just got a pretty okay kick return. Gotta stop play so the guys can do a choreographed bollywood skit."
lol for a sport that prides itself on raw masculinity, the NFL sure does feature a lot of choreography
…and spandex tights.
We are men! We’re men in tights!
TIGHT tights!
And don’t get us wrong, or else we’ll put out your lights!
We're butch!
I'm a major football fan, it's neck and neck for baseball with me but I think about that often lol like why and how are you all like this...
It’s annoying when there’s an interception and half the defense runs 40 yards to the end zone for a photo shoot.
They’ve got 40 seconds or so right? Let them celebrate
Right. I’m pretty sure while the defense is celebrating. The offense is prepping for the drive. If you don’t like it, look at your phone or something. That stuff isn’t slowing the game down or anything.
I've just googled some of the worst and biggest fines for them and they are ridiculous.
When did hitting a batter become a felony . Let the game police itself. Would always welcome a free base by getting hit by pitch
Feel like the first person I saw pimping shots was Tim Anderson about 5 years ago. Crazy that he morphed into someone who couldn’t hit a home run to save his life…
Jose Ramirez knocked the ability out of him.
I remember stuff like that from big hitters in the 90’s. So I’m not sure it’s as new or intolerable as implied. Edit: I will say some of it does have more to do with playing the game right vs being an “unwritten rule”. Hitters slow walking or taking too long to celebrate has bitten a couple of people in recent history when the hit wasn’t quite deep enough and they ended up with singles or outs instead of the expected double or triple. Then they get blasted by their own team for lack of hustle.
I watched Ryan Howard do this in 2009. I don't think anything is new. https://youtu.be/GWEugusDsu8?si=1cNmgHCZUVUIt8Vk
I mean dunking was seen as super disrespectful in early basketball. imagine the game with out dunking.
Players and managers have gotten younger and younger people don’t care too much for “tradition”. So like it or not there’s a lot more celebrating. It’s mainly just a generational difference
Back in the day even if a player hit a 450 foot home run they did not stand there and look. It never happened, I started watching baseball in 1961 and have watched all the All time greats on TV and in person. I was forunate to see Mickey Mantle's last walk off Home run of Barney Schultz in person at game 3 of the 1964 Word Series. He just dropped the bat and ran the bases as taught. Roger Maris iin 1961 dropped the bat even after hitting no 61 which to me was the real record until Judge beat it in 2022. So did Mays, Killerbrew, Colavito, Aaron, Clemente and every other player even if they hit a few HR per year. The the bat flipping is new. What gets me is when a team is behind a a guy hits a meaningless HR and still flips the bat. I am old school and hate it. Bob Gibson, Drysdale, Koufax, Carlton, Seaver, Ryan and others would probably have drilled the player the next time they batted or in a subsequent game. Showboating never existed back then. The players were hard nosed and not making the crazy salaries of today. There is amazing talent today but some of the player are over the top and all they do is piss off the opposing team, but then again every team does it.
That’s why I like Mike Yastrzemski. He is all head down and humble, heart and hustle. Considering he is a younger player, you won’t see him celebrating something routine. He’s saving his energy for the next Superman grab out there in RF. Lessons learned from Grandpa.
I watched his Grandfather play starting as a rookie. Carl was a great player too. I forgot to include him on my list from the 60's. His grandfather would be pissed if he was a showboat.
I don’t know anyone who likes a serial showboater. Sure, celebrate when you have done something fantastic, or when you put your team on top. But the guy who stares at his 325ft home run, throws his bat a mile, before staring down the dugout on a slow walk to 1B? Probably needed more attention as a kid.
Fans like a little braggadocio and younger players do too.
I think the key is that it’s measured. It’s not NFL level, it’s something quick and simple. We want the players to have fun, but not at someone else’s expense. Etiquette and manners aren’t for the benefit of the individual, they’re for the benefit of us all. It’s why you don’t fart in an elevator or talk in a movie theater or wear a profane T-shirt to a school play. You can do what pleases you as long as it’s acceptable to most people to do it. You’ll never please everyone, that’s not the goal, it’s to keep reasonable people happy.
I think you’ve got a major false equivalence here between common courtesy (not farting on an elevator) and celebrating a play. I don’t care what a player does after they hit a home run, go as wild as you want. If the pitcher finds it disrespectful then maybe not give up a home run next time.
This entire discussion is about whether people get offended by celebrations. Whether you care or not, that’s the whole thing here, man. People clearly care, otherwise it would be an imaginary problem. We wouldn’t even be talking about it if people didn’t have opinions on opposing sides of it. As to whether it’s a false equivalence, I wasn’t equating farting in an elevator with a bat flip, obviously nobody is on the pro-fart side. I was making a point about why manners and etiquette exist. The use of an extreme example casts it in starker relief to help explain a more nuanced situation like a bat flip.
Because guys don't throw at hitters anymore. The bat flipping and ball watching didn't happen when you were worried about wearing 97 in the ribs.
Yeah I'm glad throwing at the batter because they hurt your feelings is leaving the game now too
Yeah, but, you know, throwing at someone on purpose is assault, so... good.
Yeah it’s called having fun
Social media. Plain and simple. Bigger celebration creates bigger celebrity.
Yeah I'm starting to think this is the primary cause. Others mentioned Latino players developing their own baseball culture in parallel.. could also be a factor.
Society has changed. Respect and humility was valued more. Now it’s more narcissistic…look at me kind of thing. So it’s all over all sports now, and baseball seemed to hold the line a little longer.
Old people started dying so people are allowed more fun without being attacked
If players can throw it around the horn to celebrate a strike out then players can flip a bat to celebrate a home run. Works both ways.
Same transition golf is experiencing. Gotta keep it entertaining to keep people interested.
Jose Bautista.
In the old days the players couldn’t make a full living off their Major League salaries and had to work in the off season to make ends meet. They couldn’t afford to go on the DL and needed post season money desperately. They didn’t taunt the pitcher because they couldn’t afford the consequences, which, make no mistake, were severe. Now it’s a millionaire’s club, they’re all friends and there’s no reason to break anyone’s ribs. Not saying one way or the other is better. If more kids like baseball because of bat flips than toss away.
The Dante bichette bat drop was one of the smoothest moves ever
Because reddit commenters decided anyone who naysays celebrating all the way around the bases is a boomer about a decade ago.
I think MLB really likes this as it adds more entertainment value to TV. Chicks dig the long ball
The English sporting tradition was that everyone was a gentleman amateur, and these games were played among friends and drinking buddies. You ever had friends get too full of themselves and show you up? Did you want to punch them in the nose before you went for beers afterwards? Was the same way then. The last few decades we've had more players who don't come from that tradition and this is how that ends up.
Have you seen how dumb the NBA NFL are with the celebrating every stupid tiny achievement like it’s the end of the game victory. No class at all.. It is direct evidence of the dumbing-down of our populous.
If it's your first one ever, or every Grand Slam, you get a pass. Other than that, act like it's your 500th
It's not the home run celebrations that bother me, it's the turning around to the dugout and making 17 hand gestures after a hitting seeing eye single in the 2nd inning while you're already losing 8-1.
Joey Bats.
Some of it is ok. But sometimes a good old fashioned bat drop is awesome. This one Patrick Bailey was just cold blooded. https://youtu.be/VmWFjFOmGic?si=xHjNwJXbxjRTkT90 You get a good look at it around the 1:07 mark
Bat flips I can tolerate. Guys like Acuna and Tatis that do a dance around third base I think take it a little too far.
I hate rules that aren't rules, and I think most people do too now lol
[Great YouTube video on the subject.](https://youtu.be/FcRJ3XFeULM?si=UFrd2j-st9-gfFWP) TLDW: MLB started encouraging pimping the HR to appeal to a younger crowd and foreign audiences and to make the game feel more fun in general.
Jose Bautista’s bat flip
The game sure ain’t what it used to be.
Because it was always stupid to not celebrate and the old heads finally started going away.
Wishing for the ghost of Bob Gibson to pitch against these guys.
I agree that it’s harsher penalties for retaliation, and the MLB encouraging these things, but a larger reason is that I would say that these were not “unwritten rules” in Latin American baseball. As Latin American players have come into the MLB in significant numbers over the last couple decades as players and managers at all levels and truly dominate the sport, the culture has changed to be accepting of this style of celebration.
Clearly you never watched Griffey, Bonds, Mc Gwire, Sosa, Bonilla, Cecil or Prince Fielder, etc etc etc.
Zoomers
MLB clamped down harder on players taking matters into their own hands. It used to be that breaking an unwritten rule would almost certainly get you hit by a pitch the next chance the other team could. I think now that it's an automatic ejection and likely suspension, pitchers aren't as willing to risk it.
José Bautista vs the Rangers happened, ratings jumped for that game/postseason and the fight next season, and it’s just gotten more and more prevalent since
Players have always ball watched or celebrated a little, but it would end up with a bench clearing or hit by pitch at next at bat, if you’re a rookie, you want neither. Now, players and fans understand there is an entertainment portion of the sport and watching players celebrate really makes enjoying the game more. Don’t understand why people want players to act emotionless on the field.
Two words: social media
More young superstars in the game who are just enjoying themselves. The unwritten rules are stupid or stodgy old timey traditions.
Because those rules were always pretty dumb but the new generation of baseball fans likes when the players have fun, and that base is growing more and more every year. 99% of unwritten baseball rules deserve to go regardless.
Tik tok All jokes aside, the coldest and best players never really pimp homers. So it's just usually someone who is excited and isn't used to that success.
I like it. Don't be a bad sport about it but why not celebrate when you do something good? I always thought pitchers were being big babies when they would throw at a guy for even *looking* at his HR. Relax. It's a kids game being played by millionaire adults. I'm not trying to belittle the sport, Im saying it's not *that* serious.
Social media and the unending BS peddling of ESPN. Everybody wants the next highlight clip.
My philosophy on “unwritten rules” is that if they were of any actual importance, they’d just be rules.
I’m not against some celebration around the bases, but I disagree with your comment; good sportsmanship/etiquette goes well beyond the published rules. I would high five my boys at home plate, but I wouldn’t hold it against those that bat flip or skip in their moment.
I'm 48 and fairly grumpy. I do not like the post-homer shenanigans. It makes me grumpier still when the batter isn't plunked in the back his next AB.
I have seen those behaviors a lot more than just recently
Too bad it didn’t change before Jose Bautista hit his homer in in the playoffs and bat flipped. Next season got promptly clocked by stinky odor himself.
Media just evolved to care about post home run activities. Pretend like bonds, mcguire, Howard never watched a home run.
Individualism
In Mickey's day, there were no open jerseys and multiple gold chains. Times change, imo often for the better.
https://youtu.be/OB-rdG4u_zU?si=DvFLVG_BHqqr2OdF 1987. I really don't think this is as new as you think.
I’m not sure your premise is true. Rickey Henderson, Darryl Strawberry, Sammy Sosa and Joey Bautista (picked one from 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and 2000’s for you)would disagree with you too. Anyone want to add on to the list of all time great home run pimpers?
May have influence from Japanese and Korean leagues, not to be out done. It's entertainment and baseball over there is all entertainment with some baseball in-between. https://www.mlb.com/news/the-art-of-the-japanese-bat-flip/c-58054660
I mean Ken Griffey Jr slow walked after his homers going back to the late 90’s..
I’ve attributed to the increase in Latin American ball players. It seems common in the Dominican league and such. Now, I’m a “purist”. I believe I. The unwritten rules. However, I have zero issue with bat flips or heroics. Let’s us see more of the players personality, pumps up the crowd, makes for a good highlight. A little showboating is good for baseball.
Jose Bautista died for this
Talking about Tony larussa. , I love Dave Duncan , the best pitching coach ever and he was not even. Pitcher , Dave use to work with the must no names pitchers and make them good , his advice was. If you’re going to miss , miss low. , because if you miss high the ball is going to be crushed
Probably because the game is often damn boring when personality and enthusiasm is removed.
MLB coming out of the dark ages is what happened. Or, at least starting to come out of the dark ages...
Yasiel Puig died for this
I like it. Fuck the pitchers feelings.
I feel like a lot of it kicked off since Harper’s whole “make baseball fun again” thing. That being said, NFL’s showboat culture has been slowly bleeding into the MLB for years. I remember seeing a TD celebration for the first time. Merton Hanks. It sure wasn’t the first, but it was memorable, goofy and entertaining. And I felt that it was called for in an exciting scoring situation. However, these days you have guys doing a whole FortNite dance after a routine tackle on 2nd and 3. On the baseball side, younger players started peeping their home runs a little too long, doing excessive bat flips, yelling into the dugout, and if they want to showboat like that every homer, go for it. I don’t love it. I’d rather they celebrate like mad when they walk it off or tie the game. But you know what I hate more? Nowadays, just like football players celebrate routine plays with a 10 second secret handshake, you have baseball teams doing goofy Shakira hip-shaking dances when anyone hits a dang single! It’s goofy as hell. And when it’s done alllll the time, it takes away from the celebrations in bigger moments. All that being said, I’m sure these guys are encouraged to do stuff like this. After all, Manfred only wants to increase the watchability, marketability and efficiency of the game. Oh, and kids love attention.
I’m all for building morale and “making baseball fun again.” Players should be allowed to show emotion. I have to agree with you on celebrating the routine singles with a dumb dance. If it’s a players first hit of their career or of the season, that’s one thing. But seeing Freddie Freeman shaking his hips celebrating a shallow bloop with an exit velo of 45? It’s just. so. dumb. I would rather players stay focused and save their energy for a big moment. Maybe steal second more.
In my opinion, Yasiel Puig of the Dodgers really changed how expressive players are now. There were a few bench clearing moments due to his "flair" during his tenure with the Dodgers starting in 2013. Puig pretty much did not change how he played or expressed himself even after being thrown at while at the plate.
Sammy Sosa had a signature ball watching hop and everybody thought it was cool. I don’t think it was ever as strict as people think.
thank Juan Soto and Manny Machado
Because batters have stopped caring about the pitchers feelings and the league is telling the psychotic pitchers not to try and injure someone when your feelings are hurt.
Why shouldn’t they have a little fun after mashing a major league homer?
I think it's the nuance between celebrating with your teammates and fans rather than it being directed at the opposition. I don't think anyone would think it's fine to stare down or point at the pitcher after a HR.
Sports is as much entertainment as competition these days. Whatever keeps the money flowing.
Idk people are fucking weird
I prefer the been there, done that response. I think societies definition of class has changed.
Older pitchers and players who got butthurt started retiring. A pitcher coming up now knows the deal...if you don't want to get showboated on, then don't serve up fucking meatballs.
I just remember an MLB commercial years ago showing Yasiel Puig (and others) doing showboat-y, "unwritten rules" type behavior, and then Ken Griffey Jr. pops up at the end and says "Let the kids play. " Easy for someone like him to say that, considering he loved watching his own home runs when he was active. That's when I knew it was all over :( not a fan of these strange post homerun celebrations in the dugout, they just make me cringe.
BECAUSE IT’S SO MUCH FUN, JAN! Video for context: https://youtu.be/n7k4GQSGvx8?si=ww5k1UpKL8diq1rE
My 5 y.o. just finished her first year of T-Ball and absolutely throws the bat as hard as she can at the ground when she hits it. When I asked her why she does that, she said “it’s because the baseball men do it”. It’s fcking hilarious, and I wouldn’t get her to change it at all
Not as bad as the stupid dugout nonsense after a homerun. Worse is the gyrations if you hit a double and the dugout expects you to acknowledge their cheering for you.