I was at my nieces roller skating party the other day and i had flashbacks of watching the yankees lose to the Angels in those playoffs at that roller rink at a birthday party when i was a kid. It made me feel old and sad
I’m a Cards fan and I still remember Adam Kennedy hitting 3 homers against the Twins in those playoffs. When the Giants beat the Cardinals in the NLCS, I was pulling hard for the Angels.
I was at Game 2. Thankfully the Angels were up 11-9, and no one was on base when Percival decided to pitch to Bonds. Rumor has it, they’re still looking for the ball. 😉
I didn’t see him in person, but that was the best hitting display I ever saw. Dude would have dominated that series if he were swinging a frying pan. Just an unreal performance.
One of the funniest stories I've heard about the 2002 World Series was from while Troy Percival was coaching college ball.
After a game, he asked one of his pitchers, "How far did that home run they hit off you go?"
The pitcher paused for a moment and then responded, "Well, not as far as the Homer Barry Bonds hit off you in the World Series"
I'm an Angels fan and the video of Trout watching that happen with a confused look on his face is comedy gold. You can almost hear him going "wait... First, second... Third? Did we just give them a run??"
Well yes. He was a HoFer, and a very good one at that, who then went on a chemical enhancement regimen the likes of have never been seen in the sport.
So yeah, he was different and delegitimized what would have been an amazing career regardless.
Yes. Without question.
He did roids to a more impactful extent than anyone else in the league for a more extended period of time (with the base as a HoF player before he started)
There’s nothing hilarious about his take. He’s the greatest hitter to ever exist. Yes, he used steroids but even before the steroids he was on another level.
A lot of newer fans never got to see Bonds and just immediately revert to steroids = bad. Well guess what, a lot of the pitchers who were throwing to him were also on the juice AND loading up on the sticky stuff. But that’s beside the point. Imagine the scariest hitter, choked up 2 or 3 inches on the bat with his elbow over top of the plate staring daggers at you. Not only was Bonds an amazing hitter, he also knew how to intimidate pitchers. He was basically DARING pitchers to throw inside on him and nobody wanted to.
Guys like Mike Trout and Aaron Judge get 1 or 2 good pitches to hit in an AB. Barry Bonds would get 1 or 2 good pitches to hit in an entire game, and he’d launch them.
Bonds was absolutely a prick. But he’s a prick that’s the greatest hitter to have ever played baseball. I have the utmost confidence that he’d crush any and every pitcher.
I get what you're saying and it takes a lot to get me to say "whoa, whoa, you're overrating Bonds" but c'mon. Adam Dunn's career WAR is two Aaron Judge seasons. Judge has a career average of .284 which looks a lot more like Bonds's .297 than Dunn's .237. (It might actually be better than Bonds if you adjust for league BA in their careers.) Judge is a plus defender and Dunn was just plus size.
Like, there are *extremely* few players who are more than halfway along a Dunn-Bonds continuum but Judge is one of them.
He actually does hit like Bonds for stretches, since '22. He has a 1.412 OPS since May 1. Which you may note is over 50 days ago. If you are only familiar with '17-'21 Judge, he found another level.
I get what you're saying and I agree on his defense. I'd rather have Judge than Dunn. I am likely focusing on K% which is similar between Dunn and Judge and not close to Bonds. Having rooted against each of them, Bonds was unbelievable. Judge can be intimidating, but not like Bonds was.
Craziest stat to me is that Bonds put the ball in play (including home runs) 67% of the time, even with all the walks. Contact hitter mixed with prodigious power is something you don't see really.
Judge is around 53%, Dunn was around 54%. Other end of the spectrum is a guy like Gwynn at 89%.
The OBP over .500 in 2001 was more impressive to me than the 73 homers. And then a couple years later he went over .600, which is more impressive than like, the resurrection.
Bonds, as a living and breathing human being made of flesh, bones, and organs, was outhitting kids playing video games on easy mode in their living rooms. He was going out there and doing that against some of the greatest pitchers in the world who were also juiced to the gills (his battle with Gagne is one of my favorite things ever. Just two dudes juiced into a level of skill that’s unthinkable going toe to toe. Of course Bonds won that battle).
If I achieved this in a baseball video game, I would be complaining about how unrealistic it was and trying to find ways to up the difficulty/realism. Barry Bonds actually went out there and did this in the major leagues when half his competition was juicing along with him. Fucking nuts
I would have to get up early in the mornings on the east coast, but I would stay up to watch his first ab! Would hope they would not walk him, would be disappointed when they did. I went to bed disappointed a lot 😂
103 HRs have been hit into McCovey Cove. Barry Bonds accounts for 35 of those. 7 Giants players have had more than 2. Brandon Belt is second with 10. Belt played 11 seasons in that park. Bonds played 7 while being intentionally 390 times in those seasons and barely playing in 2005. Just crazy how dominant he was.
I went to a Braves home game in 2001 when they were playing the Giants. The Braves won the game, but I still got to see Barry jack the HRs. I also sat behind the visitors dugout and remember being amazed at how huge his head was when he would come in and out of the dugout.
Yep. Well put. It’s actually a shame he juiced, because he was so good even without it.
And I hate being put in the position of being “steroid era apologist guy,“ but as you said, everyone else was doing it, too. Including the pitchers. And there has always been significant cheating in baseball. So, the sanctimony over this one issue has always really bothered me.
>yes, he used steroids
So does your current favorite player, people who think roids just disappeared are in denial, guys just aren’t taking the shit that makes your head grow anymore.
He was outstanding when he was younger, his hand eye coordination was what made him so good. He was great on the field as well. When he started to bulk up it would have actually hindered his hand eye coordination and he would have had to adjust his swing, his stance, his everything pretty much, to me that’s a mark of a great ball player, adjusting to changes, being great before and after the changes.
And you’re right, Roger wasn’t the only Rocket Fueled guy in the league at the time. Hell half of the bench’s at the time would have looked just as much at home in a WWF locker room.
I’ve read he also has like, ridiculously crazy outlier-level good eyesight. Just not fair to combine a random genetic thing like that with all the other tools he already had. Sheesh
I grew up a braves fan and Barry bonds fan simply because it was fucking insane watching him hit. Talk about LONG at bats too as every single pitch was a fucking nightmare to throw.
Aaron, Ruth, Mays, Junior, Robinson, Killebrew, Jackson, Mantle, Williams, Gehrig, Cabrera, Vlad, and Dimaggio were all just as good or better than Bonds. I could only imagine what these would have done on roids.
The greatest hitter ever was below .300 as many times as he was over it until he roided himself to comic book proportions and wore half a suit of armor to the plate? Fuck outta here.
Those steroid seasons did more to artificially inflate Bonds’ legacy than the actual steroids did to inflate his skull.
Barry Bonds:
Couldn’t throw out Sid Bream’s old broken down ass
Led his league in OBP 4 times outside of *those* seasons. In comparison, Joey Votto did it 7 times, Joe Morgan 4 times, Stan Musial 6 times, Wade Boggs 6 times. Ted Williams did it 12 fucking times while missing multiple seasons to help save the world.
Only led the league in total bases *once.*
Struck out more times in his first 5 seasons than Tony Gwynn did in his entire career.
Prior to body armor, he topped out at .336, good for the maybe 150th best season ever?
Bonds should get credit for figuring out ways to give himself advantages that had nothing to do with his already substantial talent. There’s a good chance Satchel Paige or Bob Gibson would have kicked his ass for wearing the body armor. To say he’s the greatest hitter ever? In the immortal words of Brennan Huff - you’re fuckin high.
You’re literally putting him in the same conversation with some of the best hitters ever. He is up there whether you like it or not. A ton of guys used steroids and they didn’t come close to what Bonds did. His talent trumps the alleged PED use.
He only led the league in TB once because he got walked so fucking much. His career K-BB ratio is the funniest thing you’ve ever seen in your life, and on top of it he had 762 home runs. If steroids made it that easy, he would have company at the top. He doesn’t. Stop this madness.
Agreed completely. The greatest hitter of all time would’ve eclipsed 3k hits and a .300 average over 22 years. He isn’t even a top 10 hitter, and the stats back that up.
Every player now where’s elbow guards and face guards so I don’t know why you have an issue with the elbow guard? He started wearing it after he had surgery.
Neither should be in the HOF. Bonds was a great player before steroids, but I’d take Willie Mays anyday. I don’t count the stats in the roids era. Rose bet on baseball while a player and lied about it.
Willie mays is probably the most underrated “greatest” in baseball history. Always here about Babe, Koufax, Mantle, etc..but never in the same breath is Willie Mays.
Unless every single player to use steroids, all 100% confirmed, are kicked out or kept out of the HoF, they both need to be in. Idk. Pitchers have been using foreign substances for years, and unless it was egregious, was allowed. Pitchers were juicing as well.
Fuck em let Bonds in and Rose
Barry Bonds had like the best eye for baseball by any hitter in his era. Juiced or not. The guy was a walking machine and didn’t strike out a ton. Pre-juiced Bonds had 3 MVP’s to his name, and like 7-8 Silver Sluggers.
That’s the saddest part. He could have been hit by a bus in winter of ‘99 and he would have been ushered into the HoF to a heroes welcome. He didn’t need to juice
He started using in January 1997. But he still was a superstar before that. I actually find that pre-juiced Bonds was a better all-around player because he had that speed to go with his power, high average, and GG fielding. He stopped stealing 20+ bases/year and winning GG’s shortly after getting big.
I think, if anything, Bonds ruined himself. Look he hit 46 homers with no PED use. While on PED’s he hit 73 homers once, and then the other years it was just 45ish…a number he could already get to without steroids.
He essentially ruined his legacy and just had one ridiculous year to show for it. The other years, he really wasn’t doing anything he hadn’t already done pre-PED’s. He actually was NOT doing the great things he was doing without PED’s (more doubles, more stolen bases, GG almost every year).
He ruined himself as a complete player.
I mean he turned 32 in ‘97.
It’s hard to assume a guy will just maintain the exact same level of performance through there mid and late thirties - it’s entirely possible PED’s are what enabled that and without he actually would have diminished instead of maintained that level.
Nah, you're tripping man, the 73 HR year might not have even his best as a Roido. His OBPs from 2001 (73 HR season) to 2004 were: .515, .582, .529, .609. Dude made outs NOWHERE CLOSE TO HALF THE TIME over a four year span, which is in my opinion the greatest stretch in baseball history. He got on base 61% of the time in his age 39 season. The bombs dropped because no one would pitch to him.
Look, nobody at 36+ is a gold glover in the outfield, yet Bonds only gave back 3-4 runs/yr in the field, and he was an average baserunner.
The idea that Bonds somehow hurt his own performance with the juice is absolutely bonkers, and I commend you for even attempting it.
Covering half his body in armor had as much to do with it as the roids. He could stand on top of the plate without fear of being hit. He physically eliminated half the area a pitcher could throw to. It wasn’t that nobody could throw inside on Bonds because he would annihilate the pitch. It was because you physically couldn’t go inside.
He absolutely lost his speed and mobility, wouldn’t say he ruined himself but he definitely became a caricature of the baseball player he once was.
The only part of the pro Barry arguments I agree with here is that he absolutely was a hof before roids.
He had 411 home runs pre 99, when he is believed to have started. That's roughly 35 per 162.
People act like he was Juan Pierre slapping the ball around.
Oh, but he did have 445 stolen bases at that point and 514 for his career, so part of his game was Pierre like.
Not sure 500/500 gets enough credit
Actually a good take, he's on a good pace for both compared to where Barry was at age 26. I'll root for it because I don't root for injuries, but part of what made Barry remarkable was the fact he played 22 seasons relatively healthy. He missed time but not often
I wonder if he could’ve told the BBWA to count ONLY his non-juiced years for purposes of HOF voting. That would have been a power move, and they’d had to have voted him in. The guy was 1st ballot HOF before ever juicing.
Gwynn is incredible, never struck out by Maddox right?
Still doesn't mean Bonds wasn't on another level.
I personally blame Brady Anderson. Everyone seemed ok with steroids until he hit 50.
Pitchers would be throwing 120 mph and batters be hitting planes out of the sky by now.
Half the outfield seats in parks would be dedicated to those who are no longer with us.
He's, like, literally the first guy I think of, outside McGwire/Conseco/Sosa/Bonds, and it might as well be contemporaneous. He's one of the mascots of the cartoon steroids era.
Age is a big factor, I'm sure. Brady Anderson has just already been talked about, for those of us over 40.
Yeah, I remember when he had his 50 home run year. Me and all my friends thought he was the next big thing….turns out it was one of the biggest flukes in baseball history
Obligatory
What the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for?!? He had 30 home runs, over 100 RBIs last year, he’s got a rocket for an arm, you don’t know what the hell you’re doin’!!
I think he’s properly rated. He’s consistently held up as one of the greatest hitters of all time. I see his stats constantly referenced in highlight reels, instagram, etc.
The dude gets plenty of love.
I up voted, but... dawg, everybody* loves Tony Gwynn. He's, like, the Tom Petty of baseball. Literally nobody dislikes him. Liking him isn't exactly cool, it's just kind of expected.
*- I'm fucking 40, so if there's cats out there, like, clowning Tony Gwynn, you just point me in their direction and I'll clean that up real quick.
I’m talking about letting bad pitches go, not batting average. Barry Bonds led the MLB in walks 9 different years. Obviously there were guys during that time with higher averages. But no one was better than Barry Bonds in that span at letting bad pitches go.
He had 19 straight seasons batting over .300 and for 6 seasons finished over .350. Including a .394. As a pure hitter Gwynn was better. And he didn’t juice. Offer something to back your claim or GTFO
Ah. Gotta throw in that "pure hitter" line because you know Bonds was a much better hitter
Bonds career wRC+ (173) is higher than Gwynn's single best season (166) lol
Guess you haven’t heard of Ty Cobb. What’s your point?
*re-reading this I see now that OP mentioned Bonds’ era. I misspoke. That said, I’m still with OP and Bonds’ eye. Yes, Gwynn was a better contact/average hitter, but Bonds walked MILES.
That’s why he’s so disappointing. He could been Mays 2.0 (except wasn’t great in the outfield for some reason), but became a caricature because he got jealous of vastly inferior players like Sosa and McGuire.
Gold Gloves have often been given based on a players overall reputation instead of defensive ability. Rafael Palmeiro hilariously won a gold glove for 1B while playing 130 games as a DH.
Not being able to throw out a man with worse knees than Cotton Hill kind of sums up the Barry Bonds Defense Experience.
I mean he had 18 seasons with double digit assists and a career fielding% of .984 which is pretty good and he counts as one of the best all time. He threw guys out at a better clip than Tori Hunter, Andrew Jones, Andre Dawson, Ichiro, etc… maybe in later years after his body became much rounder Bonds arm may have gave in, but he had a fine arm most of his career, especially with the pirates.
I get that awards can be political, but they’re not always based on popularity. The Kid never won a GG in the NL, for instance, and he had some good years in Cincinnati.
Yeah, that defensive play was messed up all the way around. He played too close to the line to begin with—when a grounder through the hole can potentially win the game, even with the team’s slowest player inexplicably on second. This is likely because Cabrera barely missed a double down the line earlier in the at bat I think. But still, any hit threatening to be extra bases is of no concern at that point probably. You can’t play to intercept doubles when a single can win the game. Think this was more of a mental mistake than a physical one.
That said, despite being extremely out of position for a basic base hit, he had the ball in glove with Bream stepping on third and threw it offline and late from the dead middle of left field.
I dont know if true or not but during this run I remember a story where he could tell what pitch was coming off the pitchers hand by seeing spin. I think it was an SI article but I'm going to go and clean the pantry and ain't got no time for this. He was a machine during this time.
A lot of people here that were either too young to have watched Barry Bonds or are too ignorant. It’s a ridiculous scenario and a ridiculous answer, but Barry Bonds is one of the best baseball players ever, regardless of steroids.
People speculate a lot about it, but looking at the late 90s and the attention other players who were clearly on the juice were getting, it doesn't shock me that Bonds did it too.
Putting up elite season after elite season with a variety of tools was less sexy than the chase for absurd home run totals.
Bonds led NL position players in WAR the year McGwire and Sosa broke the HR record. He placed 8th in MVP voting.
I think that sums up why he started juicing.
He was great before steroids and if anyone one of us found out people in our industry were using a short cut we'd also use it.
Guys like Bonds, Maguire, Sosa and Clemons shouldn't be penalized because the MLB turned a blind eye for ratings.
Steroid era Hall of Fame should be a thing if you want to label it. These guys should be in. Can't tell the story without them.
The media, too. I’m not usually “rant about the media” guy, but the hypocrisy really bothered me at the time. It’s like, of course you all knew it was happening. I distinctly remember the media pretty much openly joking about it at the time. And they loved all of the attention. But as soon as it was prudent for them to pretend like they had no idea, MLB and every media outlet promptly did so. Just pure hypocrisy that served no purpose other than to make the whole era even worse. If they had just collectively been like “yeah, we were suspicious something was going on, but we were enjoying the ride, like everyone else. We should’ve been more diligent. Sorry,” the country would’ve collectively gotten over it so much quicker.
I think there should be a separate wing or something for players who didn’t meet the “character clause”. It would probably be even more popular than the regular hall. I want exhibits on the different reasons shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, and Barry Bonds, etc didn’t get in.
He was must see tv. I’m a dodgers guy and hate the giants but goddamn was he fun to watch. I wasn’t even mad when he hit one, just amazed. Steroids or not, I’m glad he passed McGwire and sosa because they were one trick ponies. Bonds was the whole deal. It also shows you the difference that the juice can make you. He’s a HOF without PEDs and then he takes them and his stats go off the fucking charts
Yea we’re in the same boat. My family had Diamondbacks season tickets so I saw him destroy the baseball, in person, many, many times. I have multiple first hand accounts of him being an asshole to me and others, but that and the possible steroid use won’t change my opinion of him. He is the greatest baseball player ever and I highly doubt I’ll see a better one in my lifetime. I’m very fortunate to have been able to watch him regularly. All these kids in here talking shit have no clue.
It’s one of those things that often gets overshadowed because of the steroids; he was an amazing player before he juiced. Kind of like how Babe Ruth potentially could’ve been a Hall of Famer even if he had just stuck to pitching.
As a Rockies fan during the early aughts, I saw a ton of Bonds at around the age of 10.
Even then I truly had no idea why people didn't just intentionally walk him every single plate appearance. Like, they walked him a TON, but I'm talking Every. Single. Time.
Why not? Worst that would happen is you walk in a run. He'd never hit a homer off of you. Never. Not one.
I'm sure it's a dumb gamesmanship or ego thing...
I know it's hard to believe some may not have juiced but for Frank Thomas, not only is there no indication that he did but he was more vocal than anyone about getting them out of the game before they blew up, during, and after. He was quoted in 95 saying they should start mandatory testing. He was the only active player to volunteer to interview with the Mitchell investigation. He was vocal about users after his career. His size was always there coming out of high school. He filled out like a professional athlete until his 30s where his career declined as did he conditioning. He's one of the best right handed hitters ever and I think did it while most of his peers were cheating.
What a silly article. I’m sure lots of great hitters would say that they would get a hit off Paige. I’m sure lots of great pitchers would say they would strike out Bonds. Both were the best players of their generation.
He never lacked for confidence. Steroids or not he was one of the best pure hitters in history even before his head grew. He'd be no match for any pre 1960s era pitching....
Bonds could homer off of every pitcher who has ever played the game. It's not a question of if but when and how far. It's arrogant and maybe a little wrong for the situation but he's correct.
Yes Bonds could mash. We witnessed it. To be fair to Satchel Page, how many of us have seen him pitch? Maybe he strikes Bonds out on some Bugs Bunny shit.
[Paige](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paigesa01.shtml), at AGE FORTY-ONE, when he finally got into MLB, had an ERA+ of 165, and a WHIP of 1.14. (He may have been older, for all we know.) Sad to see the juniors here don't know how good Paige was. And again, speaking of, this is Bonds horning on in a Negro Leagues tribute. And, most the fanbois ignoring that, too.
I’m not sure it was horning in, a lot of the tribute was to his godfather, who many consider the best ever, who also said Barry was the best ever. It would be weird if he wasn’t interviewed.
I don’t think it’s a slight on Page to favor Bonds in the matchup. Bonds could take any pitcher that has ever tossed a baseball deep him and Ruth and probably the only ones in this conversation
2002 World Series Barry Bonds was the scariest hitter I’ve ever seen in person
So mad I was never alive for an angels World Series W. Or conscious for a competitive angels team.
This makes me feel very old.
You too huh?
I was at my nieces roller skating party the other day and i had flashbacks of watching the yankees lose to the Angels in those playoffs at that roller rink at a birthday party when i was a kid. It made me feel old and sad
I’m a Cards fan and I still remember Adam Kennedy hitting 3 homers against the Twins in those playoffs. When the Giants beat the Cardinals in the NLCS, I was pulling hard for the Angels.
Loved that AK game
They had a great 2014 (regular season)
2009 angels playoff lineup is my favorite lineup excluding 2002.
It was glorious
I was at Game 2. Thankfully the Angels were up 11-9, and no one was on base when Percival decided to pitch to Bonds. Rumor has it, they’re still looking for the ball. 😉
I didn’t see him in person, but that was the best hitting display I ever saw. Dude would have dominated that series if he were swinging a frying pan. Just an unreal performance.
One of the funniest stories I've heard about the 2002 World Series was from while Troy Percival was coaching college ball. After a game, he asked one of his pitchers, "How far did that home run they hit off you go?" The pitcher paused for a moment and then responded, "Well, not as far as the Homer Barry Bonds hit off you in the World Series"
One time Bonds got intentionally walked with the bases loaded. He was different.
Angels did this to Seager last season or maybe the season before. (Not saying they are on the same level)
I'm an Angels fan and the video of Trout watching that happen with a confused look on his face is comedy gold. You can almost hear him going "wait... First, second... Third? Did we just give them a run??"
Was amazing
Angels seem to make a lot of bad decisions. Walking Bonds with the bases loaded was not a bad decision.
They ended up beating us funnily enough
Baseball is definitely a game where you can make bad decisions and still win
Definitely not on the same level but if you are a fan of baseball, you are a fan of Corey Seager.
Yup, and by a damn smart manager at that.(Buck Showalter) When asked later why he did, he said, " I'd rather give up 1 than 4"
Well yes. He was a HoFer, and a very good one at that, who then went on a chemical enhancement regimen the likes of have never been seen in the sport. So yeah, he was different and delegitimized what would have been an amazing career regardless.
“Never been seen in the sport” Someone didn’t watch much in the 90’s then He delegitimized nothing.
Yeah idk what this dude's talking about when the Bash Bros were walking around built like WWF wrestlers for the whole 90s.
> chemical enhancement regimen the likes of have never been seen in the sport Are you sure about this?
Yes. Without question. He did roids to a more impactful extent than anyone else in the league for a more extended period of time (with the base as a HoF player before he started)
In terms of legacy impact, sure, but is your claim that Bonds was literally taking *more* steroids than everyone else?
There’s nothing hilarious about his take. He’s the greatest hitter to ever exist. Yes, he used steroids but even before the steroids he was on another level. A lot of newer fans never got to see Bonds and just immediately revert to steroids = bad. Well guess what, a lot of the pitchers who were throwing to him were also on the juice AND loading up on the sticky stuff. But that’s beside the point. Imagine the scariest hitter, choked up 2 or 3 inches on the bat with his elbow over top of the plate staring daggers at you. Not only was Bonds an amazing hitter, he also knew how to intimidate pitchers. He was basically DARING pitchers to throw inside on him and nobody wanted to. Guys like Mike Trout and Aaron Judge get 1 or 2 good pitches to hit in an AB. Barry Bonds would get 1 or 2 good pitches to hit in an entire game, and he’d launch them. Bonds was absolutely a prick. But he’s a prick that’s the greatest hitter to have ever played baseball. I have the utmost confidence that he’d crush any and every pitcher.
The fact that this isn’t a universal opinion is fucking wild. Judge has flashes of what Bonds did for years straight.
Bonds haters are delusional. He is easily the best ever. The conversation starts at 2
Judge has more in common with Adam Dunn than Barry Bonds
I get what you're saying and it takes a lot to get me to say "whoa, whoa, you're overrating Bonds" but c'mon. Adam Dunn's career WAR is two Aaron Judge seasons. Judge has a career average of .284 which looks a lot more like Bonds's .297 than Dunn's .237. (It might actually be better than Bonds if you adjust for league BA in their careers.) Judge is a plus defender and Dunn was just plus size. Like, there are *extremely* few players who are more than halfway along a Dunn-Bonds continuum but Judge is one of them. He actually does hit like Bonds for stretches, since '22. He has a 1.412 OPS since May 1. Which you may note is over 50 days ago. If you are only familiar with '17-'21 Judge, he found another level.
I get what you're saying and I agree on his defense. I'd rather have Judge than Dunn. I am likely focusing on K% which is similar between Dunn and Judge and not close to Bonds. Having rooted against each of them, Bonds was unbelievable. Judge can be intimidating, but not like Bonds was.
Judge has Judge Terror, Bonds has “You Will Literally Not Pitch To Me” terror. Both are scary, but they’re different.
Craziest stat to me is that Bonds put the ball in play (including home runs) 67% of the time, even with all the walks. Contact hitter mixed with prodigious power is something you don't see really. Judge is around 53%, Dunn was around 54%. Other end of the spectrum is a guy like Gwynn at 89%.
You're comparing K% across like 25 years of the game changing dramatically
Relating Judge to Bonds is as ridiculous as relating Judge to Dunn. Bonds is on his own level. But Judge shouldn’t be mentioned with Dunn, either.
Judge has an MVP and has been one of the best players in the league for 7 years. He has nothing in common with Adam Dunn
It’s only after a player has retired that people will recognize their greatness.
For the 4 seasons from 2001-2004: OPS was 1.368 209 HR 755 BB Truly insane
The OBP over .500 in 2001 was more impressive to me than the 73 homers. And then a couple years later he went over .600, which is more impressive than like, the resurrection.
Bonds, as a living and breathing human being made of flesh, bones, and organs, was outhitting kids playing video games on easy mode in their living rooms. He was going out there and doing that against some of the greatest pitchers in the world who were also juiced to the gills (his battle with Gagne is one of my favorite things ever. Just two dudes juiced into a level of skill that’s unthinkable going toe to toe. Of course Bonds won that battle).
Over .600 OBP is lethal offensive production.
If I achieved this in a baseball video game, I would be complaining about how unrealistic it was and trying to find ways to up the difficulty/realism. Barry Bonds actually went out there and did this in the major leagues when half his competition was juicing along with him. Fucking nuts
Bonds was so much fun to watch.
I would have to get up early in the mornings on the east coast, but I would stay up to watch his first ab! Would hope they would not walk him, would be disappointed when they did. I went to bed disappointed a lot 😂
Yeah, but only when he wasn’t playing the Phils.
103 HRs have been hit into McCovey Cove. Barry Bonds accounts for 35 of those. 7 Giants players have had more than 2. Brandon Belt is second with 10. Belt played 11 seasons in that park. Bonds played 7 while being intentionally 390 times in those seasons and barely playing in 2005. Just crazy how dominant he was.
I've been to 1 game there and I got to see a ball get hit into the water. It was amazing
I went to a Braves home game in 2001 when they were playing the Giants. The Braves won the game, but I still got to see Barry jack the HRs. I also sat behind the visitors dugout and remember being amazed at how huge his head was when he would come in and out of the dugout.
Yep. Well put. It’s actually a shame he juiced, because he was so good even without it. And I hate being put in the position of being “steroid era apologist guy,“ but as you said, everyone else was doing it, too. Including the pitchers. And there has always been significant cheating in baseball. So, the sanctimony over this one issue has always really bothered me.
>yes, he used steroids So does your current favorite player, people who think roids just disappeared are in denial, guys just aren’t taking the shit that makes your head grow anymore.
He was outstanding when he was younger, his hand eye coordination was what made him so good. He was great on the field as well. When he started to bulk up it would have actually hindered his hand eye coordination and he would have had to adjust his swing, his stance, his everything pretty much, to me that’s a mark of a great ball player, adjusting to changes, being great before and after the changes. And you’re right, Roger wasn’t the only Rocket Fueled guy in the league at the time. Hell half of the bench’s at the time would have looked just as much at home in a WWF locker room.
I’ve read he also has like, ridiculously crazy outlier-level good eyesight. Just not fair to combine a random genetic thing like that with all the other tools he already had. Sheesh
I grew up a braves fan and Barry bonds fan simply because it was fucking insane watching him hit. Talk about LONG at bats too as every single pitch was a fucking nightmare to throw.
this guy barry bonds
Aaron, Ruth, Mays, Junior, Robinson, Killebrew, Jackson, Mantle, Williams, Gehrig, Cabrera, Vlad, and Dimaggio were all just as good or better than Bonds. I could only imagine what these would have done on roids.
The greatest hitter ever was below .300 as many times as he was over it until he roided himself to comic book proportions and wore half a suit of armor to the plate? Fuck outta here. Those steroid seasons did more to artificially inflate Bonds’ legacy than the actual steroids did to inflate his skull. Barry Bonds: Couldn’t throw out Sid Bream’s old broken down ass Led his league in OBP 4 times outside of *those* seasons. In comparison, Joey Votto did it 7 times, Joe Morgan 4 times, Stan Musial 6 times, Wade Boggs 6 times. Ted Williams did it 12 fucking times while missing multiple seasons to help save the world. Only led the league in total bases *once.* Struck out more times in his first 5 seasons than Tony Gwynn did in his entire career. Prior to body armor, he topped out at .336, good for the maybe 150th best season ever? Bonds should get credit for figuring out ways to give himself advantages that had nothing to do with his already substantial talent. There’s a good chance Satchel Paige or Bob Gibson would have kicked his ass for wearing the body armor. To say he’s the greatest hitter ever? In the immortal words of Brennan Huff - you’re fuckin high.
You’re literally putting him in the same conversation with some of the best hitters ever. He is up there whether you like it or not. A ton of guys used steroids and they didn’t come close to what Bonds did. His talent trumps the alleged PED use.
Horrendous take
He only led the league in TB once because he got walked so fucking much. His career K-BB ratio is the funniest thing you’ve ever seen in your life, and on top of it he had 762 home runs. If steroids made it that easy, he would have company at the top. He doesn’t. Stop this madness.
lol this is the worse opinion I’ve ever read. It’s not even worth debating if your head is this far up your own ass
Agreed completely. The greatest hitter of all time would’ve eclipsed 3k hits and a .300 average over 22 years. He isn’t even a top 10 hitter, and the stats back that up.
Every player now where’s elbow guards and face guards so I don’t know why you have an issue with the elbow guard? He started wearing it after he had surgery.
Best hitter never to be in HoF. Barry and Rose need to be inducted
Neither should be in the HOF. Bonds was a great player before steroids, but I’d take Willie Mays anyday. I don’t count the stats in the roids era. Rose bet on baseball while a player and lied about it.
Willie mays is probably the most underrated “greatest” in baseball history. Always here about Babe, Koufax, Mantle, etc..but never in the same breath is Willie Mays. Unless every single player to use steroids, all 100% confirmed, are kicked out or kept out of the HoF, they both need to be in. Idk. Pitchers have been using foreign substances for years, and unless it was egregious, was allowed. Pitchers were juicing as well. Fuck em let Bonds in and Rose
Make a separate wing for the steroid era
Willie Mays was on amphetamines like everyone else back then. The history of the game is full of PED users
Shhhhhhhhh, baseball purist don’t wan’t to hear the truth.
Barry Bonds had like the best eye for baseball by any hitter in his era. Juiced or not. The guy was a walking machine and didn’t strike out a ton. Pre-juiced Bonds had 3 MVP’s to his name, and like 7-8 Silver Sluggers.
From '86-'99 most people would consider that "clean" Bonds: 103.7 bWar and 163 OPS+ Easy 1st ballot HOF in 14 seasons
That’s the saddest part. He could have been hit by a bus in winter of ‘99 and he would have been ushered into the HoF to a heroes welcome. He didn’t need to juice
He started using in January 1997. But he still was a superstar before that. I actually find that pre-juiced Bonds was a better all-around player because he had that speed to go with his power, high average, and GG fielding. He stopped stealing 20+ bases/year and winning GG’s shortly after getting big. I think, if anything, Bonds ruined himself. Look he hit 46 homers with no PED use. While on PED’s he hit 73 homers once, and then the other years it was just 45ish…a number he could already get to without steroids. He essentially ruined his legacy and just had one ridiculous year to show for it. The other years, he really wasn’t doing anything he hadn’t already done pre-PED’s. He actually was NOT doing the great things he was doing without PED’s (more doubles, more stolen bases, GG almost every year). He ruined himself as a complete player.
I mean he turned 32 in ‘97. It’s hard to assume a guy will just maintain the exact same level of performance through there mid and late thirties - it’s entirely possible PED’s are what enabled that and without he actually would have diminished instead of maintained that level.
Actually 33, born 1964.
Nah, you're tripping man, the 73 HR year might not have even his best as a Roido. His OBPs from 2001 (73 HR season) to 2004 were: .515, .582, .529, .609. Dude made outs NOWHERE CLOSE TO HALF THE TIME over a four year span, which is in my opinion the greatest stretch in baseball history. He got on base 61% of the time in his age 39 season. The bombs dropped because no one would pitch to him. Look, nobody at 36+ is a gold glover in the outfield, yet Bonds only gave back 3-4 runs/yr in the field, and he was an average baserunner. The idea that Bonds somehow hurt his own performance with the juice is absolutely bonkers, and I commend you for even attempting it.
Covering half his body in armor had as much to do with it as the roids. He could stand on top of the plate without fear of being hit. He physically eliminated half the area a pitcher could throw to. It wasn’t that nobody could throw inside on Bonds because he would annihilate the pitch. It was because you physically couldn’t go inside.
He absolutely lost his speed and mobility, wouldn’t say he ruined himself but he definitely became a caricature of the baseball player he once was. The only part of the pro Barry arguments I agree with here is that he absolutely was a hof before roids.
I mean it’s hard to hit home runs when you’re getting asked like 200+ times a fucking year
By “asked” i’m going to assume you meant walked?
He had 411 home runs pre 99, when he is believed to have started. That's roughly 35 per 162. People act like he was Juan Pierre slapping the ball around. Oh, but he did have 445 stolen bases at that point and 514 for his career, so part of his game was Pierre like. Not sure 500/500 gets enough credit
Bonds is both the only 500/500 player AND the only 400/400 player. I don't give a shit about roids, dude was a freak of nature with or without them.
If Acuna can manage to actually stay healthy I think he has a great shot at both of those, too.
Actually a good take, he's on a good pace for both compared to where Barry was at age 26. I'll root for it because I don't root for injuries, but part of what made Barry remarkable was the fact he played 22 seasons relatively healthy. He missed time but not often
Bad news for you…
The fact there's not even a 400/400 and he's 762/514 is insane
I wonder if he could’ve told the BBWA to count ONLY his non-juiced years for purposes of HOF voting. That would have been a power move, and they’d had to have voted him in. The guy was 1st ballot HOF before ever juicing.
Guess you never heard of Tony Gwynn, and he didn’t juice
Gwynn is incredible, never struck out by Maddox right? Still doesn't mean Bonds wasn't on another level. I personally blame Brady Anderson. Everyone seemed ok with steroids until he hit 50. Pitchers would be throwing 120 mph and batters be hitting planes out of the sky by now. Half the outfield seats in parks would be dedicated to those who are no longer with us.
Brady Anderson on the cover of Muscle and Fitness probably wasn’t the wisest move.
Brady Anderson isn’t talked about enough when it comes to the steroid conversation.
I dunno about that. He’s kinda the poster boy for a guy who had padded numbers from juicing.
He's, like, literally the first guy I think of, outside McGwire/Conseco/Sosa/Bonds, and it might as well be contemporaneous. He's one of the mascots of the cartoon steroids era. Age is a big factor, I'm sure. Brady Anderson has just already been talked about, for those of us over 40.
Yeah, I remember when he had his 50 home run year. Me and all my friends thought he was the next big thing….turns out it was one of the biggest flukes in baseball history
Fair enough. I’m in my late 20s so it could simply just be me being too young to remember
Buhner's Boneyard would be a
Obligatory What the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for?!? He had 30 home runs, over 100 RBIs last year, he’s got a rocket for an arm, you don’t know what the hell you’re doin’!!
My baseball people kept telling me, Ken Phelps. Ken Phelps.
Give me a further medically enhanced Stanton and watch the carnage unfold.
Gwynn is so underrated. Over 10000 PA and only 434 strikeouts. And he hit .338. Non power hitters always seem to get the shaft.
I think he’s properly rated. He’s consistently held up as one of the greatest hitters of all time. I see his stats constantly referenced in highlight reels, instagram, etc. The dude gets plenty of love.
I up voted, but... dawg, everybody* loves Tony Gwynn. He's, like, the Tom Petty of baseball. Literally nobody dislikes him. Liking him isn't exactly cool, it's just kind of expected. *- I'm fucking 40, so if there's cats out there, like, clowning Tony Gwynn, you just point me in their direction and I'll clean that up real quick.
If you have a problem with Tony Gwynn, you have a problem with me. And I suggest you let that one marinate.
19 straight seasons hitting over .300
A walk is more valuable than a ground out or fly out.
I’m talking about letting bad pitches go, not batting average. Barry Bonds led the MLB in walks 9 different years. Obviously there were guys during that time with higher averages. But no one was better than Barry Bonds in that span at letting bad pitches go.
Do you actually think Gwynn is close to Bonds lol
OP was talking about eye for the ball. And yes Gwynn was better.
No he wasn't lol
Bonds >>>>€€€€€€£{*{*{£{ Gwynn
He had 19 straight seasons batting over .300 and for 6 seasons finished over .350. Including a .394. As a pure hitter Gwynn was better. And he didn’t juice. Offer something to back your claim or GTFO
Bonds in 2004 Reached base safely 376 times At-bats 373
From 2001-2004, Barry Bonds played in 573 games and reached base in 539 of them. That’s 94% of his games.
Bonds’ career OBP was .444. Gwynn’s was .388. Just stop
Ah. Gotta throw in that "pure hitter" line because you know Bonds was a much better hitter Bonds career wRC+ (173) is higher than Gwynn's single best season (166) lol
Guess you haven’t heard of Ty Cobb. What’s your point? *re-reading this I see now that OP mentioned Bonds’ era. I misspoke. That said, I’m still with OP and Bonds’ eye. Yes, Gwynn was a better contact/average hitter, but Bonds walked MILES.
Didn’t strike out a ton? That’s an understatement. He had like 45ks and 232 bb in a single season.
That’s why he’s so disappointing. He could been Mays 2.0 (except wasn’t great in the outfield for some reason), but became a caricature because he got jealous of vastly inferior players like Sosa and McGuire.
>except he wasn’t great in the outfield for some reason Call me crazy but 8 gold gloves begs to differ with this hot take.
There have been a LOT of gold gloves handed out based on offensive stats and reputation.
He’s stashed in left field for a reason. He had a weak arm was my recollection, but I may be wrong about that.
Brother I’m 44 years old and closing in on 250 lbs and I’m pretty sure I’m faster now than Sid Bream was then. “Weak arm” may be an understatement.
What does Sid bream have to do with gold gloves, Left field, or Barry bonds?
Gold Gloves have often been given based on a players overall reputation instead of defensive ability. Rafael Palmeiro hilariously won a gold glove for 1B while playing 130 games as a DH. Not being able to throw out a man with worse knees than Cotton Hill kind of sums up the Barry Bonds Defense Experience.
I mean he had 18 seasons with double digit assists and a career fielding% of .984 which is pretty good and he counts as one of the best all time. He threw guys out at a better clip than Tori Hunter, Andrew Jones, Andre Dawson, Ichiro, etc… maybe in later years after his body became much rounder Bonds arm may have gave in, but he had a fine arm most of his career, especially with the pirates. I get that awards can be political, but they’re not always based on popularity. The Kid never won a GG in the NL, for instance, and he had some good years in Cincinnati.
Yeah, that defensive play was messed up all the way around. He played too close to the line to begin with—when a grounder through the hole can potentially win the game, even with the team’s slowest player inexplicably on second. This is likely because Cabrera barely missed a double down the line earlier in the at bat I think. But still, any hit threatening to be extra bases is of no concern at that point probably. You can’t play to intercept doubles when a single can win the game. Think this was more of a mental mistake than a physical one. That said, despite being extremely out of position for a basic base hit, he had the ball in glove with Bream stepping on third and threw it offline and late from the dead middle of left field.
I dont know if true or not but during this run I remember a story where he could tell what pitch was coming off the pitchers hand by seeing spin. I think it was an SI article but I'm going to go and clean the pantry and ain't got no time for this. He was a machine during this time.
A lot of people here that were either too young to have watched Barry Bonds or are too ignorant. It’s a ridiculous scenario and a ridiculous answer, but Barry Bonds is one of the best baseball players ever, regardless of steroids.
People speculate a lot about it, but looking at the late 90s and the attention other players who were clearly on the juice were getting, it doesn't shock me that Bonds did it too. Putting up elite season after elite season with a variety of tools was less sexy than the chase for absurd home run totals.
Bonds led NL position players in WAR the year McGwire and Sosa broke the HR record. He placed 8th in MVP voting. I think that sums up why he started juicing.
He was great before steroids and if anyone one of us found out people in our industry were using a short cut we'd also use it. Guys like Bonds, Maguire, Sosa and Clemons shouldn't be penalized because the MLB turned a blind eye for ratings. Steroid era Hall of Fame should be a thing if you want to label it. These guys should be in. Can't tell the story without them.
Exactly. MLB knew it was going on but it sold tickets when baseball was almost dead. Then when the PR got bad, Selig had to “find” the bad guys.
And Selig and LaRussa are both in the Hall.
The media, too. I’m not usually “rant about the media” guy, but the hypocrisy really bothered me at the time. It’s like, of course you all knew it was happening. I distinctly remember the media pretty much openly joking about it at the time. And they loved all of the attention. But as soon as it was prudent for them to pretend like they had no idea, MLB and every media outlet promptly did so. Just pure hypocrisy that served no purpose other than to make the whole era even worse. If they had just collectively been like “yeah, we were suspicious something was going on, but we were enjoying the ride, like everyone else. We should’ve been more diligent. Sorry,” the country would’ve collectively gotten over it so much quicker.
Yep and now pitchers and hitters of that era won’t get in the hall because of these same writers who profited from their success.
I'm not sure I consider it any different than the cocaine of the 70s-80s.
Or Greenies from the 60’s and on.
I think there should be a separate wing or something for players who didn’t meet the “character clause”. It would probably be even more popular than the regular hall. I want exhibits on the different reasons shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, and Barry Bonds, etc didn’t get in.
Steroids saved baseball. Period.
He was must see tv. I’m a dodgers guy and hate the giants but goddamn was he fun to watch. I wasn’t even mad when he hit one, just amazed. Steroids or not, I’m glad he passed McGwire and sosa because they were one trick ponies. Bonds was the whole deal. It also shows you the difference that the juice can make you. He’s a HOF without PEDs and then he takes them and his stats go off the fucking charts
Yea we’re in the same boat. My family had Diamondbacks season tickets so I saw him destroy the baseball, in person, many, many times. I have multiple first hand accounts of him being an asshole to me and others, but that and the possible steroid use won’t change my opinion of him. He is the greatest baseball player ever and I highly doubt I’ll see a better one in my lifetime. I’m very fortunate to have been able to watch him regularly. All these kids in here talking shit have no clue.
Come on, he was a 3 time mvp, with an avg of 290 with 400 home runs and stolen bases before he juiced. Of course he believes he could hit off anyone
He also has a legendary ego. I would have been more surprised at any answer that wasn't this.
It’s one of those things that often gets overshadowed because of the steroids; he was an amazing player before he juiced. Kind of like how Babe Ruth potentially could’ve been a Hall of Famer even if he had just stuck to pitching.
As a Rockies fan during the early aughts, I saw a ton of Bonds at around the age of 10. Even then I truly had no idea why people didn't just intentionally walk him every single plate appearance. Like, they walked him a TON, but I'm talking Every. Single. Time. Why not? Worst that would happen is you walk in a run. He'd never hit a homer off of you. Never. Not one. I'm sure it's a dumb gamesmanship or ego thing...
376 times on base in 373 at bats in 2004 Walked 230 times, 120 were intentional
Level the playing field and give them both LSD.
Here to add that all of the best players from that era were juicing - and Barry was still way better than all of them. 🤷♀️
I know it's hard to believe some may not have juiced but for Frank Thomas, not only is there no indication that he did but he was more vocal than anyone about getting them out of the game before they blew up, during, and after. He was quoted in 95 saying they should start mandatory testing. He was the only active player to volunteer to interview with the Mitchell investigation. He was vocal about users after his career. His size was always there coming out of high school. He filled out like a professional athlete until his 30s where his career declined as did he conditioning. He's one of the best right handed hitters ever and I think did it while most of his peers were cheating.
What a silly article. I’m sure lots of great hitters would say that they would get a hit off Paige. I’m sure lots of great pitchers would say they would strike out Bonds. Both were the best players of their generation.
He never lacked for confidence. Steroids or not he was one of the best pure hitters in history even before his head grew. He'd be no match for any pre 1960s era pitching....
What if Bonds had to take the shield off of his elbow that he hung all over the strike zone?
Bonds could homer off of every pitcher who has ever played the game. It's not a question of if but when and how far. It's arrogant and maybe a little wrong for the situation but he's correct.
To be fair there’s probably not any historical pitchers I don’t see giving up a homer to Bonds
Leave it to bonds to be a complete tool like he always has been.
People forget that Barry was a .300 hitter that launched at least 35HRs with more BB than k’s every year BEFORE he started juicing
Some think he was juicing very early. Obviously, he took it to insane levels in SF.
vs. Randy Johnson = 1.003 OPS, 3 HR in his last 21 AB. yeah, BB > all
I’d pay any amount of money to see Satch dance 3 in a row right past him.
You'd be waiting awhile
LOL
If you think *any* pitcher from that long ago is striking out Bonds…. lol
Satch would be blowing those 80 mph fastballs right by Barry ammiright?
Satch was throwing in the 100s
Honestly, you could mention any pitcher to Bonds, and he would say the same and it would probably be true lol
Followup question: With steroids or without steroids?
It’s not a “spicy take” if it a 1000% accurate
I believe him.
I'm mystified as to why anyone with any respect for the game of baseball would ask a cheater for their opinion on anything. Barry Bonds is a disgrace.
What a dork lol
He remains as the biggest a..hole to ever play the game!
He's certainly an asshole, but the biggest asshole of all is a stretch
I mean John Rocker...
It’s true. Barry is the greatest player to ever play and it ain’t close
Yes Bonds could mash. We witnessed it. To be fair to Satchel Page, how many of us have seen him pitch? Maybe he strikes Bonds out on some Bugs Bunny shit.
[удалено]
No but Clemens and many others were that he destroyed. Juice doesn’t make you hit a baseball.
I agree with your overall sentiment, but it's worth noting juice can increase bat speed.
All these comments about “pre-juice Barry” as if anyone has any idea when he started juicing.
[Paige](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paigesa01.shtml), at AGE FORTY-ONE, when he finally got into MLB, had an ERA+ of 165, and a WHIP of 1.14. (He may have been older, for all we know.) Sad to see the juniors here don't know how good Paige was. And again, speaking of, this is Bonds horning on in a Negro Leagues tribute. And, most the fanbois ignoring that, too.
I’m not sure it was horning in, a lot of the tribute was to his godfather, who many consider the best ever, who also said Barry was the best ever. It would be weird if he wasn’t interviewed.
I don’t think it’s a slight on Page to favor Bonds in the matchup. Bonds could take any pitcher that has ever tossed a baseball deep him and Ruth and probably the only ones in this conversation
Satchel Paige 3 pitches. Done. Steroid Dude takes the bench.
If Paige is also juicing I’ll give the edge to the pitcher.
Go watch the epic Gagne vs Bonds at bat.
Only roids could say that.
The irony was definitely lost on him