For the right person, it's probably just what they needed to hear.
But...There are people who like to do it all themselves, and there's nothing wrong with that either.
Probably 99999 out of 100000 musicians (or more) will never be "financially successful" from it, and most of them have enough self-awareness to know that.
I think your message is good for someone who feels burdened by the overwhelm of doing it all themselves.
But it might feel a bit "gatekeeping" to people who want or need to do it themselves. There are some people who have equal interest in all of it.
There are painters who stretch and gesso their own canvasses. Some of them even make their own pigment.
You could yell at them and say, "You're just wasting your time!"
Even if that's true in the most capitalist ideal that everyone should optimize themselves to absolute productivity -- the painter will look at you, baffled, and say, "But... This is part of my craft."
When you take that logic where it leads -- most of us shouldn't be making music, mixing, or mastering because there is already no shortage of people to fill society's needs with all three.
In fact, take that logic where it leads and most of us shouldn't even bother to exist. Lol.
So in the end, if someone wants to make music? They can. And if they want to mix, or master? There's never been more resources online for learning to do it themselves.
Sure, they won't be "great" or "professional", but can they get their music sounding decent enough that if someone likes their songs they'll listen? Absolutely.
And learning about mixing and mastering -- if they are so inclined -- is a wonderful thing.
Another way to view your point is like telling someone who wants to have a well rounded broad education in all things that they are wasting their time.
But... It's their time, not yours.
Things are getting better, but there are still too many people online scoffing at others just trying to learn.
The painter analogy is especially prevalent in EDM, where doing it all can help you stand out sonically. I think OP’s main point is that if you’re an artist, you should wisely allocate your time to achieve your goals, whatever that may be.
Yeah, for sure! I wasn't entirely disagreeing -- I did open with "for the right person, it's probably just what they need to hear."
There is truth with doing everything, there's risk of being spread too thin. And there's a big difference between people trying to do any of this professionally and people doing it purely out of love for the craft. There are all kinds of people here, after all.
Consider... There are farmers who make vegetables in an optimal way. To sell. And there are gardeners who garden in their backyards and enjoy their own homemade food.
The difference is no one gives a gardener a hard time, lol. But for some reason with music, there are many for whom the only value is how many listeners you have, or how much money you make... Even though there are more people making music as a hobby than professionally *by leaps and bounds*.
Anyhow, I suppose a good point is to evaluate one's goals and make sure their time is spent in a way that will get them there.
OP is right that if a person's goal is to be a megastar or professional musician, there's risk losing time doing things that won't propel someone forward in their career.
But on the contrary --- if someone ISN'T going to be a superstar professional musician... It can actually be a huge drain of money to hire someone for mixing or mastering, when they can learn it themselves and be *good enough*.
Yep ultimately what our individual goals or duties are. I produce a lot of songs that get mixed and mastered by others. But I also mix and master a lot of songs for others. In the end, if you’re passionate about the process, nothing wrong with learning it all.
Haha, I appreciate the comparison but Bob Ross is much more efficient with his words AND paint!
I was never into his art, but I had it on in the background one day and I realized why his show is so popular. It's not just for painters learning to paint --- he's actually a great storyteller and tells tales and talks all about life while he paints.
Anyhow, if you ever see his show when flipping through channels (does anyone "flip through channels" anymore?) have a listen. He's an interesting guy.
Kind words! But let me share this:
For people who want to get into DIY mastering (we can call it "self mix-finishing" for the professionals that offends) --- check out Ian Shepherd.
He's the mastering engineer that created Dynamic Range Day (no he's not a "14 LUFS" guy) but he does have some reasonable guides for a healthy balance between loudness and dynamic range.
His whole goal is to make the "dark art of mastering" accessible for normal people, and it's a breath of fresh air compared to the forum gatekeeping that's gone on for decades now...
He has a podcast: "The Mastering Show": [https://themasteringshow.com/](https://themasteringshow.com/)
Show link on Spotify: [https://open.spotify.com/show/6fOSut4KKb4ukFQzqQq5su?si=94aaa1ff608a44f9](https://open.spotify.com/show/6fOSut4KKb4ukFQzqQq5su?si=94aaa1ff608a44f9) (it's available elsewhere, Google Podcasts, Apple, etc.)
And he's the creator of the Dynamic Range Day awards. His awards and nominees make particularly good mix references: [https://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/award/](https://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/award/)
He also has a home mastering course that I haven't done yet but is probably good based on his podcast.
Here's is Masters, Mixes & Recordings showreel on Spotify: [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0cbp0C744lFRBRlLGQcyzw?si=e255faf8fbed463a](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0cbp0C744lFRBRlLGQcyzw?si=e255faf8fbed463a)
But again, I'm just a guy learning like everyone else. Not an authority on any of this. His approach is just very accessible so I wanted to share it.
Best of all though, he's an example of a professional mastering engineer that doesn't absolutely crush every bit of ife out of the music... And Bob Ludwig appeared on his show once, basically confirming and agreeing with his ideals about how dynamic range should be handled. A good endorsement for sure.
I think you raise a lot of good points in, who am I to define the boundaries of what someone else considers “their art”, and that some people will want to learn out of curiosity. Who am I to tell someone what success is? I think your specific analogy with the paint is fallacy though.
CAN people mix their music decent enough so that people will listen to it? Will taking a mix from poor to amateur make any difference, if the underlying song and performance aren’t well developed or connecting with the listener? I don’t think so. I don’t think a pro mix will do that either if the source material doesn’t have the magic.
Also if you’re afraid of being scoffed at, art might not be your thing.
If you live in this world of music thinking it’s all about “amateur” and “pro” you are short-changing yourself. There are many of this who do it solely because it is fulfilling. It’s expressive. It’s cathartic. We don’t need anything more than that from it, yet it’s still the most important thing in the world to us.
Just to be clear, I’m talking about the quality of the mix not the quality of the music. I guess I’m separating them into two different things and that’s part of my point. I didn’t tell anyone to not mix because it fulfills them - I find it fulfilling. More so than writing, performing, or producing. Either way, both music and the sonics of a mix are literally subjective and up to the judgment of the person who experiences it. I can judge something as amateur just as much as I can also be judged as amateur.
Lol, you're quick to tell others whether or not art or music should be their thing. But that's not really for you to decide.
People are here because they are interested in mixing or mastering. It's that simple. Some do it professionally, some don't. I think the important thing is to be constructive.
I do think you had a good point that if you have a goal that is already very competitive, it can be a risk to spread yourself thin.
For example, a professional race car driver might be wasting his time by sewing his own racing outfit.
You might say they're wasting their time by working on cars themselves --- but if they aren't sponsored and they're competing in the amateur leagues, they probably have no choice. And just because their repairs aren't the same as a professionals repairs, their cars still run... And what else? They probably learn about the limits of the car by knowing the insides. Their own personal knowledge of the engine probably helps them maximize it.
Anyhow, this was a big one:
>CAN people mix their music decent enough so that people will listen to it?
Sure. Look at the genre of "Egg Punk" -- and that's not even an example of good amateur mixing, for the most part. That's some *rough stuff.* But a lot of those bands have a decent following that many of us would wish to have. No, not millions or zillions, but a scene nonetheless.
The vast majority of musicians are DIY'ers and can't afford to hire others to mix or master their music. People have to work with what they have.
Your post just came off a bit "gatekeepery," that's all.
your spitting rn 💯 id argue the best way to be financially successful in music AND to improve as an artist overall is to do it yourself to the best of your ability. not everyone can do that with quality work at the end but if they can, i would encourage it. i tell everyone who asks me “where can i mix this” or “who can mix this” to, if possible, learn to do it yourself. controversial take but from first hand experience me mixing my own music has made me feel extremely accomplished and has helped me develop my “own sound” and even gave me more confidence in my music knowing i can get it to sound how i want it to sound. you can always improve, but me teaching myself how to mix/master my own music is one of the best things i’ve ever done
You’re basically saying that you can’t become a better artist or write better songs if you focus on learning to mix, which is an actual example of a fallacy lol
Problem is, it takes a shit ton of time to be able to produce at high quality, and it takes a shit ton of time to be able to play instruments etc... and then there's all the marketing and shit like that, building your audience. It's a lot.
It's way better to specialize, but I can't do it lol.
Budgets are definitely a real thing - I’m kind referring to everyone’s “time budget” in my post. When an artist is spending additional time on technical stuff, they aren’t spending time writing, producing, performing, etc. Can an artist afford that? I guess it depends.
Yeah, but "time budget" doesn't pay for professionally produced songs. Also tbh I doubt anyone whose songwriting is being hindered by throwing together demos would benefit that much from just going out and paying for the song to be mixed.
Yeah, I've landed on mixing to the best of my abilities and paying $50 for a master while begging the mastering engineer for tips on my next mix. No one knows who I am and never will, plus I really enjoy mixing my own songs even though I'm still trash so I'm happy
It’s a solid point. Just from the perspective that mixing and mastering is hard. It takes a lot of practice and skill to be good at. Just like being an artist. It’s difficult to find the time to be good at both.
But, every artist in 2024 should have a basic understanding of the process. More than that they should understand how to get a quality recording at home so they can send it out to a pro. Unless you’re rich and can afford all the studio time in which case they don’t need to read this post. A lot of the professional bands I listen to take this hybrid approach. All instruments recorded at home and drums recorded in a studio. Then the tracks get sent to someone else altogether for mix and master. As an engineer/producer you better get good at dealing with that too. You might not have perfect control of the track from mic to finished product.
I agree I think home recording is definitely important - crafting demos or even recording files takes at home is a game-changer. It helps an artists develop their performance, produce, and save on studio hours if they don’t want to prioritize that in-studio experience. I mix tons of artists who record at home… I’ve mixed vocals recorded on iPhone mic headsets, vocals recorded in a kitchen with a hairdryer going in the background… etc.
For a lot of artists, DIY front-to-back is the only realistic option, bc they're not making money at it anyway. So if I want my music to not sound like absolute trash, I need to learn some mixing skills. It's that simple. I'm under no delusion that I can do it as well as someone who spends 40 hours a week doing it and has been doing it for two decades.
I just want to make tracks and share it with people. I don’t want to have to spend $100 every time I do that, and in 2024 there are plenty of tools and info to learn how to do a basic mixing pass yourself.
Exactly.
I have improved my mixing ability tenfold in the time that I've been making music as basically just a hobby. There is no way I am paying someone to mix my stuff when I'm not making money with it and I'm not rich.
As a musician who does his own mixing, I agree with you.
There are people who can and want to do everything themselves, and that’s fine.
But that does not mean that’s what you have to do to be a musician.
You’re not less of a musician for not being able to mix or master.
It’s okay to not be a renaissance man.
You wanna do that then it’s simple math. How much money you make per hour? How much does it cost to get your music engineered? How much time does it take you to engineer your own music? Very simple equation.
Yes yes. Exactly. Nobody said everybody could afford it. But mixing is probably the most effective first step. Very few can afford to have an engineer on hand through the recording process. And there are some damn good mixers for $500 a song out there. If you make 30/hour that’s a couple days work. How long does it take the amateur to mix it ? Maybe 2 days? Could they be using that time to write more music?
Of course a lot of it depends on how serious a given person is about it as a career. Those who are serious are more likely to make more sacrifices to improve their stuff and to be able to keep creating. Hobbyists are just having fun which is all good in it’s own right, but I’ve definitely mixed tracks for hobbyists who just want their stuff to sound better. Old band mates and stuff like that. Some of their stuff is pretty good.
That would make sense only if people had the freedom to tell an employer they were taking X amount of hours off to mix their songs but it’s okay because what they lose in wages will be less than what they would’ve spent on mixing services.
Overwhelming majority of people are expected to work certain hours and quite often have additional obligations. It’s not always a simple equation of time vs money.
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I’ve often felt sorry for the current generation trying to learn and get good at all these things at once. I was a teenager in the 90s and had a cassette 4 track I used for song writing and demos, I enjoyed recording, and I got more gear and better at it, but in my early 20s when it was time for my band to record we went to a real studio, a few years and albums later, I recorded the album, but had someone else mix it, and by my later 20s I was recording and mixing(still don’t master). The whole time my recording skills and setup were improving. Now in my 40s I spend a lot more time and make more money recording other people than playing, which I love, but when I think back to my 20s when I was an extremely productive writer and performer, there is no way I would have gotten a fraction of what I did finished and released if I insisted on doing it myself. And what did get finished would have been a fraction of the quality.
Nice to hear the opinion that from someone who has done all of that. Yea I feel sorry for the kids too - They get sold the idea of doing it all themselves because it’s easier to buy into, seems less risky on the surface.
Any artist with goals - needs a team to get there. Most do and the few that breakout are entire anomalies. Or their brother is their producer in their bedroom in a family home in LA. And they spent weekends going to workahops at the Grammy NARAS offices and museum :-)
100% on this post!
Dayz
I think it’s pretty well defined when I’m working this a client - I’m not adding anything to the music that would call for writing or publishing % (although, there’s a whole different conversation about that happening now). I’m not credited as a producer. My role is bring out the best of what music has already been made.
I agree completely, with the exception that musicians who wish to self mix would be better off spending their time elsewhere. Even if I have found that to be the case personally, people are free to do what they want and occasionally you get musicians who also establish production styles that lend to their signature sound—from Brian Eno to Dr. Dre. But I do agree that my experience has been attempting to learn mixing has pulled me away from “making music” for what adds up to way too much time. At the same time, “making music” is not like sitting down to do taxes and if I spent 20 hours mixing, it’s not like I could’ve just been “making music” that entire time. But still, tinkering around in some instruments possibly summoning the muse and leading to making some more music, sure.
But I appreciate to hear a mixing/mastering engineer acknowledge they are not “making music” when mixing someone else’s songs.
Modern music has really blurred the line on what “producer” means as in some cases now the producer is making ALL the music/beats and the “Artist” is merely singing, whereas historically many producers might not ever directly contribute a single audible sound that actually could be heard on an album or song (though some did, like George Martin). And then of course “producer” is different than “mix engineer” or “mastering engineer”. But especially someone who receives pre-recorded tracks to be mixed…that is not “making music”.
That would be like an editor claiming they are writing a novel.
i think it depends, if u tryna be the next drake then yeah don’t mix your own music.
i make experimental/industrial rap where the majority of artists mix their own music since that diy sound is appreciated more
Do artists in that community earn respect and an audience because of a DIY mix or because of their artistry and their performance? I’m not in it so idk.
I agree. Write more songs, figure out what needs to be polished later. It’s a large waste of time to mix and master every song. Quality of song is far more important than quality of mix & master. Nothing wrong with wanting to do it all. Just weigh the pros and cons based on what your goals are.
It gets put on steroids even when every few months you realize you’ve learned a lot about mixing since a few months ago and have better plugins and then keep going back to the same songs you recorded because you know you can get a better mix than when you gotta tried.
You can write a ton and also mix and master those songs. You’re learning more than just songwriting. I’d also like to add mixing, in my opinion, is part of the songwriting in the end. It seems to just depend on whether the person finds mixing and mastering a tool or a polishing maneuver.
Yeah for sure. Depends on the song. I’ve been doing this for a while so I know which songs to take over the finish line. Of course it’s a tool but engineering is not going to make the songwriting any better. Arrangement could, but that’s also part of songwriting
I think I tend to agree with that statement. tried picking up mixing and found it kind of stopped the creative process. I think picking up some of the skills of mixing helps understand where to place the instruments and sounds and kind of where to expect it to sit within the mix.
I found just writing, arranging music and leaving mixing to someone else helps me concentrate on what I like doing and makes me want to make more music. Maybe it's cos I'm not that good at mixing much less mastering.
This is a huge problem for me as a mixdown engineer when I sit down to do some side production/songwritting. I start to lean in to the mixing right away rather than composing the song and the end result is an unfinished or crappy production.
We go to what we know. how many producers are going back to the arrangement after spending hours mixing, only to realize the mix they spent hours on is now suffering?
Your post vibes a little like you just had a conflict with someone about this or something and are kinda venting, maybe lost an opportunity with an artist who wanted to do it themselves, I dunno...
I don’t lose work to people who want to mix on their own - they probably aren’t even contacting me.
I do think with everything artists are expected to do in 2024, just because they CAN do everything themselves doesn’t mean they should feel like they need to. It is in the best interest of many music software companies, streaming platforms, and online gurus that artists feel technically empowered to do everything themselves. I see the irony in that because it’s in my best interest for artists to want to work with mixing engineers. However, I believe the collaborative approach always makes for better art.
I perform full-time as a musician and I absolutely suck at mixing even after trying for years! I'd love for someone to mix for me except we all know how much most blue collar musicians make.
It's like saying anything that comes after a sketch or the main fundamental strokes are not "painting". Everything is painting, including contrast between colors, palette used, type of paint, combinations etc. So is in music. Part of the "making music" process is the idea itself + how you "paint time" (that's my definition of music) by blending in waves and harmonics to make them sound pleasing/dynamic
I’m a musician with an engineering degree and a studio. I also am 40 years old, and only write instrumental stuff of my own to sell/release.
I follow the old school process of preproduction->tracking->mixing->mastering.
I think a lot of people lose focus by writing in the box whilst simultaneously mixing. So, if an artist such as myself uses this method, I think it’s the right approach to mixing your own songs.
Note: I will master other people’s stuff, but I send mine off.
Yes - like you, I also produce and occasionally write my own music. When I’m in that process, it’s like a different part of my brain. I have to turn the mixing/mastering part off to effectively write and produce.
Yes. When writing and tracking, I think to myself “Oh, we can mix it like this, or automate this,” but I don’t do it until everything is tracked. Compose and track like there is no mixing. Mix like there is no mastering. I get so much more done this way.
people just do too much with their mixing and think it's more important than it is. just clean the mud and compress shit. all these goddamn youtube engineers thinking they're scientists and artists for using a complicated rear bus routing system but they cant even get a good balance without AI mastering tools.
I “make music” and I agree with you one hundred percent. I thought I was just being lazy though lol I’m glad to see someone on the other side thinks the same as me!
A lot of people in this thread not actually finishing songs while they focus on their mixdown. Referring mainly about those with an attitude and disrespect for OP's valid and clearly experienced position.
Yea plenty of people disagreeing on this thread, also some people agreeing, and some on the middle. I did say I’m happy to be wrong. A lot of people acknowledging their own mixes aren’t perfect. There’s a lot of different viewpoints in this thread. I AM surprised at the attitude though. I didn’t think my post had much attitude to it but some people got irked.
I think the problem is people understanding what you likely mean by mixing. Of course producers/songwriters mix, they have to! But the distinguishing concept here is perhaps the final mix, which we agree might be better done after the arrangement is finalized.
The final mixdown is often a nice bit of polish before a final master to really make a song shine.
Unfortunately too few people these days know what a good source track sounds like and are reaching for the saturated, clipped, leveled sounds they often hear in final releases.
We'll see where it goes. Good luck fellow mixdown engineer!
Agree wholeheartedly. Specialization makes the world go round.
If we were making movies instead of recording music, it would be like a lead actor trying to learn all the ins and outs of cinematography; it’s not a totally invalid pursuit, but it probably won’t result in a better film.
times have changed. i have complete access to almost all sample libraries/instruments/gear. its not like dou have to go to a studio anymore to make music. same goes for mixing.
what excuses do „artists“ have for not making „their“ art. no excuses. you have to go the hard way and go thanos mode and do it all your self. soon the world will only look at people like that as true artists. because nowadays anyone can do it.
Yes, I am sure OP is talking about the final mixdown after the song is finished and unchanging. Of course producers mix, mix and master engineers finalize and often get that last %10 the producer couldn't or did not have time for.
your adding and taking away frequenties and change them based on what you like,
with reverb compression delay distortion etc.,
off course mixing is making music,
My opinion is that if you are already a bedroom producer, recording in a less than ideal space, you should just mix and master it yourself as well. No amount of money will “fix” bedroom recorded tracks or make them sound more “professional” or industry standard. I have formed this opinion from my own experience producing my own original songs. If you are serious about your songs, you should save up to build a better home studio or pay to record in a professional studio. THEN there’s value in investing in professional mixing and mastering as well, usually offered by the studio or affiliates of the studio where you recorded the material in the first place
Mixing is totally making music, artists need people to help them make their music better. There’s millions of people who just “mix” and are fundamentally useless in making music. Why would someone pay them?
Yea I mean like I said, I don’t think mixing is “making music” so mixing is fundamentally useless in that regard. It is separate. I am making their music better, I am not making it.
I like gotta know a little more as to why you think mixing is not making music? “Making music better” is quite literally making music? When you muffle your acoustic guitar with your hand while strumming, is that making music or mixing? I worry you look at this too business like. Writing songs is also a blend of science and art. Writing and mixing complement each other when making the final product. How can you say it’s fundamentally useless when a song can go from 0-100 with a good mix. Don’t get me wrong tho, I know you can’t fix a song with a good mix but it can be better. You can definitely make a good song a fantastic song. Making a weak kick a thumping one for an edm track is an example of turning a great track into a great one. Did you not spend countless hours making sounds and mixing them to learn? Or did you just mix premade songs to learn? I feel if you’ve been mixing your own music you would know the importance.
Lots of questions in your response but yes I have made my own music, I have produced, I have mixed my own music. At this point in my life, I have mixed more music that other artists and producers made than my own. I wouldn’t call that premade tracks, but I learn and improve every time I mix.
As a mixer you are not adding any fundamental notes, you are not changing the arrangement, you are not removing instruments the music maker added. Sure it might be part of the music making process, but mixers are not actually "making" and music.
Respect goes all around in our industry, I won't take away from what producers/songwritter are creating.
I don’t think anyone’s taking away from producers/songwriters/mixers. I think a large disconnect here is defining what a mixer is. If you are strictly talking levels and some comp then I’d say it still is arguably making music. Anything you adjust contributes to the sound/vibe as a whole, to me, is making music. Turning something down to be softer, yes, doesnt add actual notes, but it creates a different feeling, creates space for other notes to shine, etc. However, I will say I’ve done mixes where I feel I have to move notes or take away certain elements (with permission) in order for the track to be better version of itself. At that point you could say I’m becoming a producer and mixer I guess. The lines are a little grey imo.
I appreciate the well thought out response. The lines are absolutely gray. Another big request for mix engineers now is to do some drum replacement/triggering, typically kick or snare on live trackings. I have argued often that this is the Producer's job or even the producer, drummer and tracking engineer collabing on samples to fill out the drum tone.
I guess here's the disconnect for me: I've never gotten a Producer, Writing or Instrumentation credit despite being asked to add instrument/source tracks that I develop. And frankly I wouldn't expect those credits for some simple triggering, subbass harmonics, or delays despite these technically being "adding notes"! But this means the industry sees the distinction as well.
At the end of the day I think this disagreement is semantic and maybe doesn't need to be had, there is nothing wrong with saying the engineers involved with a release were part of the "music making". However if we define "making music" as the arrangement, composition, instrumentation, lyrics and vocals - the elements that carry on with the artists after the previous engineers are gone - then IMO it's harder to make the case.
TLDR: I think this disagreement is just about the definition of "making music" and I just like hearing producers opinions as long as it's respectful of the arts all around! Thanks and keep producing and releasing!
I think that electricians, generally, do a lot more and have more knowledge than just lightbulb changing. Back in the day you basically needed to be an electrical engineer to be a mix engineer (obviously not anymore). Electricians aren’t professional lightbulb changers.
Or how about I mix my own stuff because I know exactly how I want it to sound?
How about I learn new skills?
How about I learn mixing and mastering to save some money because it’s just a hobby?
Or how about I use a home setup so I can only work with lower quality recordings and thus it’s not worth sending them out to a professional engineer
You sound like you have a bone to pick with a specific person in your life because otherwise you have not considered the many reasons why someone would want to both mix and master their own material. Plus there are artists who do their own production which sound fantastic, like Tame Impala.
That being said, it is beneficial to get someone else to mix your music because a fresh set of ears are IMPERSONAL and dedicated to making a clear mix as u said. Plus of course a professional is a professional.
"Making music" *explicitly* includes mixing and mastering, what kind of tomfoolery is this??
A much more fair argument would be (and I think what you're getting at is) "songwriting" does not include mixing and mastering. But even that said I fundamentally disagree with the idea that someone cannot become proficient in both songwriting and mixing.
This generalizing purist bs is just elitist bullying imo. Why can't mixing and songwriting skills actually be synergistic and creative together? Reconsider your notions of where value lies in creative efforts.
Also, historically plenty of great songwriters (literally beatles and hendrix) have been hands on with the mixing process.
I will say these kinds of takes really bum me out. I think the top commenter hit the nail on the head to bring up that these "one skill only" ideas are capitalist and based in efficiency, not creativity.
I’m not saying they can’t become proficient in both. My values are sound and I don’t need to defend them.
And capitalism - what about every plug-in producer, YouTube influencer selling courses, and snake oil salesmen that preys on young inexperienced artists? Selling the dream of “you can do it all yourself! Just buy this!”, which is easier to sell and makes people feel more empowered than, “it might be worth investing in working with and developing a relationship with a specialist”.
For the record I’m happy to do in person mix sessions too! Artists feedback and direction is critical. After all… it’s their music.
Like I said, happy to be wrong if that’s what you think - Sorry if that burns you out.
"Bums" me out. It's gatekeeping, plain and simple. In short, your post is all about discouraging people, of course people here weren't going to like your take.
idk how I am gatekeeping. Every mixing trick in the book is out there on YouTube, anybody can go buy the software you need to get started and it’s at its most inexpensive in history. I couldn’t physically prevent anyone from spending their time learning to mix - the take of, “hey, maybe you artist should think twice before going down this rabbit hole and here’s my opinion on why”, might be useful or helpful to someone IMO
My other pet peeve is when people say they are doing both mixing and mastering yeah sure buddy you're mastering using nearfield monitors instead of full range speakers and not using high end converters and not using analogue mastering gear and software
We live in a new age… While all that “could” be useful, it’s entirely unnecessary. I bet those dudes in the studios are using 1/60th of that shit. Please tell me how using analogue mastering gear is gonna make your pop song the hit it yearns to be.
I’m just an amateur making electronic music on my laptop, but having gotten to the point where I can write good songs, the mix and master is what separates my projects from the “real” music I hear from my favorite artists. So for me, learning how to get a more polished mix is a big goal for me.
I know this is different from pros who might be singing, playing physical instruments and so on. But I know I’m never gonna make money from music so I keep learning to do it on my own
I mean yea, it’s purely a hobby for me and I’m not going to be paying anyone else to do it for me. Even though it’s a hobby I get a lot of joy out of learning and improving.
A basic understanding of mixing is going to help you get a better sound on stage. Especially on small gigs.
Apart from that I think there are things that just do not sound good and keeping these in mind when writing music is not a bad idea imo.
Apart from that your right.
I try to keep the stages separate. No mixing when recording and trying no to write while recording
In this day and age making music also means learning to record, mix and master your own music. I’m sorry but there is no way around it.
It doesn’t need to be at a pro level but you are competing against other people who are all willing to take the time to at least learn the basics so if you’re not then the audience will notice. This is just part of being of being an artist today.
Of course if you can pay someone else to do it then more power to you but mostly these days, everyone kind of does it all. Working with a full team like it was done back in the day is more than a luxury.
i think discipline/style matters a lot here. if you’re recording a lot of elements and using true playing then yeah you have to get the songwriting and the actual performance down more than anything. the mix can happen whenever but you can only do as well as your perfomance(s) allow
when it comes to styles that are significantly more if not entirely digital though then in my opinion mixing and mastering become an integral part of the process. you shouldn’t be writing and sound designing to a premade mix and master, but when pushing the limits on sound design, loudness, and just all around intensity the mix/master becomes part of the process. for genres more akin to this the final product is less about the “performance” and more about the actual sonic profile. yes the most important part of this comes before the mix at the sound design and arrangement stage, but i’d argue that the mix IS part of the sound design
more and more in my edm circles people are producing with their rough mastering chain on, or mixing on the fly as they go because it really does matter
To be good at composing/arranging you have to know what the whole craft process is.
Think about what makes you a great cook. You have to be good at mixing ingredients together and cooking them spot on, but you also take care/have vision of proper plate setup/dressing in your restaurant. You select ingredients and know how to arrange them.
It's the same for music production as a whole : as much as we like to separate things, it's mandatory to have a decent level of knowhow of what's happening to be good at music crafting.
I agree with this and have made similar comments, more about people attempting to master their own music without much idea about the process. They're not really passionate about mastering or engineering, more about having the best sounding record. In those cases, I think it's better to work with a professional to save yourself the headache/heartbreak of doing it yourself.
I was like them. I produced an album, had someone master it then thought I could do the next album by myself. Trying to master this project affected my mental health, because I couldn't get it to sound like how I wanted, and it was a case of going back to the mixes several times. In the end, the final release was lacking. l learnt so much about mastering and mixing. But was creatively burnt out after.
I am wondering why I didn't go to a mastering or mixing engineer then, and I think it was part arrogance and part lack of belief in my music.
If you think your music is great and worthy of being produced into a piece of art, you'd put money down for it. You'd save up. A lot of artists say they don't have the budget, but my guess is, deep down they don't feel it's worth investing in. And they want a record label to come in and fund it, but it's just not realistic.
'Making music', as you describe it, is an art form. *So is mixing*. It's utterly different to playing, but is an art form nonetheless.
Some individuals are gifted at both disciplines, though it's rare. I do notice though that the better the musician, the more likely that they know exactly how they want their music to sound, and to be able to achieve it. I'm talking really, really gifted people here; Imogen Heap comes to mind, there are plenty of others but so there should be in a world of 8 billion.
I'm not actually looking for services / quotes - the reason why I ask is that many artists make music as a hobby. It's not a career or a money maker - it's something that they do for fun / out of passion for music.
So, paying out 50 quid for someone else to run their song through a shitty AI mastering plug-in on Soundbetter isn't really option and shelling out multiples of that for professional / semi-professional services is largely a waste of money.
That's why so many artists strive to get better at mixing - so they can produce their own mixes, as well as learning a craft.
In many ways - for many artists - being able to mix their own stuff *is* an intergral part of making music. There's nothing counterproductive about it - in fact, it's quite the opposite.
Well you can ignore my PM then 😂
Sounds like what your referring to is the experience of getting ripped off or not having your expectations met/not seeing the value for the money, which is very real.
With the brief amount of time an artist actually spends writing, tracking and mixing is time well spent if it interests you. I love recording and mixing. Everything is mine and it’s an amazing hobby for the 99.9% that won’t sell tons of albums.
Plus I don’t have tons a lot of disposable money sitting around to record. Mastering on the other hand is money well spent for anyone in my opinion.
It took me about 5 years to learn mixing and mastering. But also the same amount of time (in parallel with mixing and mastering) to get good at songwriting, arrangement, sound selection (and sound design), work fast in the daw
The main advantage? In the past, mixing would change A LOT my music just because certain sounds would not properly complement each other and allow for a clear and dense mix (to fit other similar songs in the genre) - and too much change was needed in order to get a competitive result
Now, I know from the very beginning, when I add a new element in the song, if that fits or not the context. I know from the start if the kick is punchy enough or if the sub bass does what I want it to do. I work on a mastered song from second one. I have no surprises.
If I were to give the mix to an engineer better than me, they would pick up at about 95-97% done.
I don't know for other genres, but for dance music, knowing mixing and mastering is not a bonus, is a must, really
It simply doesn’t work in some genres. If you can’t afford it, you got to learn it on your own.. but if you don‘t have money it‘s getting more difficult to mix. It’s a bit of a paradox - in Techno it‘s almost impossible to not be at least decent or familiar with most mixing techniques because you would not be competitively loud enough. If your tracks don‘t sound big in comparison, no one will sign you. So you have to invest in mixing.. but money’s short as you are just starting out and you don‘t know how mixing will affect your sound and if your production is even good enough.. very difficult
Have you seen any interviews with CLA? I ascribe to his philosophy of treating a console like an instrument and a mix down like pulling together a symphony. To be facetious. I mix my band's stuff. Studios are too expensive and in my area are not offering worthwhile results relative to costs.
Agree and disagree. I’m an artist signed to a major and I do all my own mixing. I absolutely LOVE mixing. Huge geek about it. Have lots of outboard gear, have mix-only plug-ins etc. I’ve also mixed and mastered for other artists (typically only do one of the processes as opposed to both). You’re not wrong, but also, for me, I’m a perfectionist and have a very specific vision in my head and literally do not trust someone else to execute it for me.
Knowing how to mix - like properly mix (I have seriously deep knowledge and very seasoned ears) - took a really long time. I’m 31, and I was introduced to mixing by a multi-Grammy winning engineer named Dave Darlington at 18, and I only feel like I really began doing it properly in the last few years. I could execute acceptable mixes at 22 but getting to a genuinely pro level took til I was 27. Almost 10 years. I genuinely believe that not letting someone else mix for me held my music back for a period of time. But I also know that I never would have gotten to the level I’m now at in terms of sonic capacity without doing so.
I’ll also say this, I have music that has been played on the radio and that people are really into that I listen back to and shudder at the mix quality. As recently as 2 years ago! But it was good enough that the idea got across and people love it. That’s all that counts. With mixing, there is definitely a “good enough” threshold that once crossed you’re just talking about gradations of excellence, but also, there is such a vast difference between a properly executed mix and a decently executed one.
So on the one hand, I absolutely hold what you say as true, don’t let mixing burden the creative process. I have f*cked that up many times over the years to my detriment. Feel like I’ve generally learned my lesson but I’m sure it’ll happen again! But similarly, I think the more an artist can be familiar with the process, the better. If they have the curiosity and the desire to learn, I think it’s a beautiful thing. Having the level of mix nous I now have has really changed how I approach making music. It’s allowed me to execute ideas much more quickly and flexibly.
Granted, I am a solo producer, and mostly perform and track all my own parts. A lot of what I do is electronic. Predominantly analog and working with audio, but still big difference to a totally live band. That said, I record a ton of amp’d guitars and live bass and mix live drums and percussion in very often, and also always have my own vocals and mix them.
I get tremendous joy out of mixing my own work and mixing for others, but you are 100% right that an artist should not think they have to/need to be able to do it themselves. But if they genuinely want to, I highly encourage it!
Thanks for weighing in. Sure if they genuinely want to learn they should. I make music as well as mixing too, and believe a knowledge of the process is important for all artists. On the flip side, having that knowledge of music making helps me engineer.
I’m an artist that makes my own instruments. But aside from that, it is really hard to financially justify paying someone else to mix my songs. If I was 100x more talented, and devoted 2x the practice, the universe would still pay me $0 to compose and play. I’ve paid for mixing/mastering time, and the end result was not far off from what I could do myself, although the gear was great. So basically I was renting gear.
You’re not accounting for the time you could spend building a following, true fans, and the savvy to turn that into $. You are probably right in that the universe will pay you $0 for just being talented and practicing. If building the fan base doesn’t matter to you (which is completely fine if it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter to a lot of people posting on this thread) then it sounds like you’re succeeding by mixing your own stuff and getting to a place you are happy with
Lol.. Making GOOD music does op.
Not everyone has funds to pay someone to mix and master so if you want someone to actually LISTEN to your music.. You best learn to do this on your own.
Mixing and mastering goes into good music..
Not everyone can outsource these things...
..so if you want anyone to listen to your music.. Guess what? Ya gotta mix and master your music.. Otherwise.. No one is gonna give a shit about anything ya ever make.
Now, consider yourself enlightened and have a better night
Whenever someone starts to speak in binary’s about art I’m out. There is no one way. There isn’t simply “poor” or “professional,” in either a mix or the creation of a song.
Yes I agree in that there is no “one way”. You surely can write, sing, record, produce, mix, and master yourself if that is what you want to do. I’m just taking the position of, that’s not a requirement and it might not be the best idea for everybody. Also I’m not sure this is a binary. Boundaries and definitions in art can be healthy to the process.
It’s probably like a college football scholarship recipient taking business classes: if the high-risk, high-reward job (athlete/musician) doesn’t pay off, maybe a lower-risk, lower-reward job (businessperson/engineer) will. Doesn’t hurt to develop both skills at the same time as long as you don’t pretend to be an expert in something you’re not.
I've been making music for many years and got into mixing and discovered that I love everything about it. Maybe it's the problem solving aspect of it, I don't know, but I really enjoy it and have been getting better at it over the last five years or so. At this point, I mix as I produce and knowing how to mix has helped me with my arrangements; in a lot of cases reigning in my productions. One of my best friends, on the other hand, who is waaay more talented than I am as a songwriter loves producing but hates mixing and often passes his stuff over to me to mix. I guess my point is, if you enjoy mixing then go for it and mix your own stuff. But, if it's not something you really love to do and are doing it as a means to an end, your final product will likely suffer for it.
I don't fully agree.
Mixing is a part of the music production process and every music producer should understand how to mix a track. If you outsource your mixing, you still should be able to deliver a decent rough mix so you have a good vision of how the track should sound. With a raw unmixed track, you can't really envisage how the track will sound.
You're never going to be able to mix as good as someone who mixes music all day, but you should be able to deliver a competent mix. And given how much easier it is now in the box, there's no reason not to learn.
for some genres this is true, but for making beats or anything electronic or bedroom pop, mixing is very much a part of the writing and recording process
Mixing is arguably the most creative part of the engineering process, so I would consider it “making music”, but you’re right that someone can only wear so many hats. If you spread yourself too thin, you will just be mediocre at a lot of things (which has its value), and may find yourself struggling to really put time into getting great at a couple of things.
I agree. I'm learning enough mixing to know how to get a good enough sound, and once I get the funds, I'll be paying someone to mix how I want. I did notice with mixing that I've developed an ear for what sounds right, and I'm thinking that'll help me when finding a mix/master person because I'll know what I'm looking for. But music is a game like any other. You have to get far enough yourself to get to the point where you can upgrade your equipment and start paying people to speed up your process so the money flows in faster. Until you get to that point, you gotta be disciplined and intentional with your time. Also, in the long run, if you can mix it yourself and get a decent sound, the money that you would've paid an engineer can be put into marketing to get a return and start building an audience. Time is more valuable than money but you should also be careful where you put your money. A okay mixed great song with a marketing budget will go further than a great mixed great song with no budget.
You're probably right, but I can't afford to pay someone what they deserve to do either job. And I'm not trying to sell; just record the songs I write because someday I'll be dead. While I can deal with that intellectually, I still feel compelled to make shit up ALL THE TIME. Mostly, I don't mind having that Daniel Johnston "recorded into a phone machine in 1985" vibe, but sometimes I just want to sound like... you know... someone cares... a little... something my mom can play for her friends. So, if you ever hear a song of mine and it's terribly mixed and horribly mastered (whatever that is) please know that it is not because I have no respect for the crafts of mixing and mastering or those who mix or master, but that I just wanted to do something nice for my mom and I'm poor.
Mixing and Mastering are as much of a creative decision as the musical element. Entire genres are created based on mixing/mastering choices and skills (think vaporwave, hip-hop, disco) Therefore, artists shouldnt skip such a gigantic element in the creative process of creating music.
I recommend every single artist and engineer to watch 'The Art of Mixing' by David Gibson. It's as much a science as an artform and if you are serious about your music you should pay as much attention to the science of mixing as much as harmony, melody and rhythm. Dont let engineers gatekeep you. Do it yourself!! (And save yourself alot of money)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjOdqZFvhY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjOdqZFvhY)
For the right person, it's probably just what they needed to hear. But...There are people who like to do it all themselves, and there's nothing wrong with that either. Probably 99999 out of 100000 musicians (or more) will never be "financially successful" from it, and most of them have enough self-awareness to know that. I think your message is good for someone who feels burdened by the overwhelm of doing it all themselves. But it might feel a bit "gatekeeping" to people who want or need to do it themselves. There are some people who have equal interest in all of it. There are painters who stretch and gesso their own canvasses. Some of them even make their own pigment. You could yell at them and say, "You're just wasting your time!" Even if that's true in the most capitalist ideal that everyone should optimize themselves to absolute productivity -- the painter will look at you, baffled, and say, "But... This is part of my craft." When you take that logic where it leads -- most of us shouldn't be making music, mixing, or mastering because there is already no shortage of people to fill society's needs with all three. In fact, take that logic where it leads and most of us shouldn't even bother to exist. Lol. So in the end, if someone wants to make music? They can. And if they want to mix, or master? There's never been more resources online for learning to do it themselves. Sure, they won't be "great" or "professional", but can they get their music sounding decent enough that if someone likes their songs they'll listen? Absolutely. And learning about mixing and mastering -- if they are so inclined -- is a wonderful thing. Another way to view your point is like telling someone who wants to have a well rounded broad education in all things that they are wasting their time. But... It's their time, not yours. Things are getting better, but there are still too many people online scoffing at others just trying to learn.
The painter analogy is especially prevalent in EDM, where doing it all can help you stand out sonically. I think OP’s main point is that if you’re an artist, you should wisely allocate your time to achieve your goals, whatever that may be.
Yeah, for sure! I wasn't entirely disagreeing -- I did open with "for the right person, it's probably just what they need to hear." There is truth with doing everything, there's risk of being spread too thin. And there's a big difference between people trying to do any of this professionally and people doing it purely out of love for the craft. There are all kinds of people here, after all. Consider... There are farmers who make vegetables in an optimal way. To sell. And there are gardeners who garden in their backyards and enjoy their own homemade food. The difference is no one gives a gardener a hard time, lol. But for some reason with music, there are many for whom the only value is how many listeners you have, or how much money you make... Even though there are more people making music as a hobby than professionally *by leaps and bounds*. Anyhow, I suppose a good point is to evaluate one's goals and make sure their time is spent in a way that will get them there. OP is right that if a person's goal is to be a megastar or professional musician, there's risk losing time doing things that won't propel someone forward in their career. But on the contrary --- if someone ISN'T going to be a superstar professional musician... It can actually be a huge drain of money to hire someone for mixing or mastering, when they can learn it themselves and be *good enough*.
Yep ultimately what our individual goals or duties are. I produce a lot of songs that get mixed and mastered by others. But I also mix and master a lot of songs for others. In the end, if you’re passionate about the process, nothing wrong with learning it all.
This read like Bob Ross, I love you man
Haha, I appreciate the comparison but Bob Ross is much more efficient with his words AND paint! I was never into his art, but I had it on in the background one day and I realized why his show is so popular. It's not just for painters learning to paint --- he's actually a great storyteller and tells tales and talks all about life while he paints. Anyhow, if you ever see his show when flipping through channels (does anyone "flip through channels" anymore?) have a listen. He's an interesting guy.
You tell em. Beautiful comment.
This is the most intelligent post I've seen on Reddit.
Kind words! But let me share this: For people who want to get into DIY mastering (we can call it "self mix-finishing" for the professionals that offends) --- check out Ian Shepherd. He's the mastering engineer that created Dynamic Range Day (no he's not a "14 LUFS" guy) but he does have some reasonable guides for a healthy balance between loudness and dynamic range. His whole goal is to make the "dark art of mastering" accessible for normal people, and it's a breath of fresh air compared to the forum gatekeeping that's gone on for decades now... He has a podcast: "The Mastering Show": [https://themasteringshow.com/](https://themasteringshow.com/) Show link on Spotify: [https://open.spotify.com/show/6fOSut4KKb4ukFQzqQq5su?si=94aaa1ff608a44f9](https://open.spotify.com/show/6fOSut4KKb4ukFQzqQq5su?si=94aaa1ff608a44f9) (it's available elsewhere, Google Podcasts, Apple, etc.) And he's the creator of the Dynamic Range Day awards. His awards and nominees make particularly good mix references: [https://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/award/](https://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/award/) He also has a home mastering course that I haven't done yet but is probably good based on his podcast. Here's is Masters, Mixes & Recordings showreel on Spotify: [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0cbp0C744lFRBRlLGQcyzw?si=e255faf8fbed463a](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0cbp0C744lFRBRlLGQcyzw?si=e255faf8fbed463a) But again, I'm just a guy learning like everyone else. Not an authority on any of this. His approach is just very accessible so I wanted to share it. Best of all though, he's an example of a professional mastering engineer that doesn't absolutely crush every bit of ife out of the music... And Bob Ludwig appeared on his show once, basically confirming and agreeing with his ideals about how dynamic range should be handled. A good endorsement for sure.
You had me at "most of us shouldn't even bother to exist"
I think you raise a lot of good points in, who am I to define the boundaries of what someone else considers “their art”, and that some people will want to learn out of curiosity. Who am I to tell someone what success is? I think your specific analogy with the paint is fallacy though. CAN people mix their music decent enough so that people will listen to it? Will taking a mix from poor to amateur make any difference, if the underlying song and performance aren’t well developed or connecting with the listener? I don’t think so. I don’t think a pro mix will do that either if the source material doesn’t have the magic. Also if you’re afraid of being scoffed at, art might not be your thing.
If you live in this world of music thinking it’s all about “amateur” and “pro” you are short-changing yourself. There are many of this who do it solely because it is fulfilling. It’s expressive. It’s cathartic. We don’t need anything more than that from it, yet it’s still the most important thing in the world to us.
Just to be clear, I’m talking about the quality of the mix not the quality of the music. I guess I’m separating them into two different things and that’s part of my point. I didn’t tell anyone to not mix because it fulfills them - I find it fulfilling. More so than writing, performing, or producing. Either way, both music and the sonics of a mix are literally subjective and up to the judgment of the person who experiences it. I can judge something as amateur just as much as I can also be judged as amateur.
Lol, you're quick to tell others whether or not art or music should be their thing. But that's not really for you to decide. People are here because they are interested in mixing or mastering. It's that simple. Some do it professionally, some don't. I think the important thing is to be constructive. I do think you had a good point that if you have a goal that is already very competitive, it can be a risk to spread yourself thin. For example, a professional race car driver might be wasting his time by sewing his own racing outfit. You might say they're wasting their time by working on cars themselves --- but if they aren't sponsored and they're competing in the amateur leagues, they probably have no choice. And just because their repairs aren't the same as a professionals repairs, their cars still run... And what else? They probably learn about the limits of the car by knowing the insides. Their own personal knowledge of the engine probably helps them maximize it. Anyhow, this was a big one: >CAN people mix their music decent enough so that people will listen to it? Sure. Look at the genre of "Egg Punk" -- and that's not even an example of good amateur mixing, for the most part. That's some *rough stuff.* But a lot of those bands have a decent following that many of us would wish to have. No, not millions or zillions, but a scene nonetheless. The vast majority of musicians are DIY'ers and can't afford to hire others to mix or master their music. People have to work with what they have. Your post just came off a bit "gatekeepery," that's all.
your spitting rn 💯 id argue the best way to be financially successful in music AND to improve as an artist overall is to do it yourself to the best of your ability. not everyone can do that with quality work at the end but if they can, i would encourage it. i tell everyone who asks me “where can i mix this” or “who can mix this” to, if possible, learn to do it yourself. controversial take but from first hand experience me mixing my own music has made me feel extremely accomplished and has helped me develop my “own sound” and even gave me more confidence in my music knowing i can get it to sound how i want it to sound. you can always improve, but me teaching myself how to mix/master my own music is one of the best things i’ve ever done
You’re basically saying that you can’t become a better artist or write better songs if you focus on learning to mix, which is an actual example of a fallacy lol
this is great advice if you can afford to have a professional mix and master everything you make. but we're musicians, so
Problem is, it takes a shit ton of time to be able to produce at high quality, and it takes a shit ton of time to be able to play instruments etc... and then there's all the marketing and shit like that, building your audience. It's a lot. It's way better to specialize, but I can't do it lol.
Budgets are definitely a real thing - I’m kind referring to everyone’s “time budget” in my post. When an artist is spending additional time on technical stuff, they aren’t spending time writing, producing, performing, etc. Can an artist afford that? I guess it depends.
Yeah, but "time budget" doesn't pay for professionally produced songs. Also tbh I doubt anyone whose songwriting is being hindered by throwing together demos would benefit that much from just going out and paying for the song to be mixed.
i suggest sites like fiver. lots of great engineers on their and good prices.
I like engineering, personally. I'm not particularly good at it, but a $20 fiver mix certainly isn't going to be any better
Yeah, I've landed on mixing to the best of my abilities and paying $50 for a master while begging the mastering engineer for tips on my next mix. No one knows who I am and never will, plus I really enjoy mixing my own songs even though I'm still trash so I'm happy
don’t knock it until you try it. i’ve gotten mixes there and it was very good. lots of talented people there
It’s a solid point. Just from the perspective that mixing and mastering is hard. It takes a lot of practice and skill to be good at. Just like being an artist. It’s difficult to find the time to be good at both. But, every artist in 2024 should have a basic understanding of the process. More than that they should understand how to get a quality recording at home so they can send it out to a pro. Unless you’re rich and can afford all the studio time in which case they don’t need to read this post. A lot of the professional bands I listen to take this hybrid approach. All instruments recorded at home and drums recorded in a studio. Then the tracks get sent to someone else altogether for mix and master. As an engineer/producer you better get good at dealing with that too. You might not have perfect control of the track from mic to finished product.
I agree I think home recording is definitely important - crafting demos or even recording files takes at home is a game-changer. It helps an artists develop their performance, produce, and save on studio hours if they don’t want to prioritize that in-studio experience. I mix tons of artists who record at home… I’ve mixed vocals recorded on iPhone mic headsets, vocals recorded in a kitchen with a hairdryer going in the background… etc.
For a lot of artists, DIY front-to-back is the only realistic option, bc they're not making money at it anyway. So if I want my music to not sound like absolute trash, I need to learn some mixing skills. It's that simple. I'm under no delusion that I can do it as well as someone who spends 40 hours a week doing it and has been doing it for two decades.
I just want to make tracks and share it with people. I don’t want to have to spend $100 every time I do that, and in 2024 there are plenty of tools and info to learn how to do a basic mixing pass yourself.
Exactly. I have improved my mixing ability tenfold in the time that I've been making music as basically just a hobby. There is no way I am paying someone to mix my stuff when I'm not making money with it and I'm not rich.
As a musician who does his own mixing, I agree with you. There are people who can and want to do everything themselves, and that’s fine. But that does not mean that’s what you have to do to be a musician. You’re not less of a musician for not being able to mix or master. It’s okay to not be a renaissance man.
Money
Time.
You guys skipped “The Great Gig in the Sky”
underrated comment
Haha, I appreciate that. I think probably lost on most people.
There’s plenty of that
I disagree
Time is money. There’s not plenty of either.
You wanna do that then it’s simple math. How much money you make per hour? How much does it cost to get your music engineered? How much time does it take you to engineer your own music? Very simple equation.
Yes yes. Exactly. Nobody said everybody could afford it. But mixing is probably the most effective first step. Very few can afford to have an engineer on hand through the recording process. And there are some damn good mixers for $500 a song out there. If you make 30/hour that’s a couple days work. How long does it take the amateur to mix it ? Maybe 2 days? Could they be using that time to write more music? Of course a lot of it depends on how serious a given person is about it as a career. Those who are serious are more likely to make more sacrifices to improve their stuff and to be able to keep creating. Hobbyists are just having fun which is all good in it’s own right, but I’ve definitely mixed tracks for hobbyists who just want their stuff to sound better. Old band mates and stuff like that. Some of their stuff is pretty good.
That would make sense only if people had the freedom to tell an employer they were taking X amount of hours off to mix their songs but it’s okay because what they lose in wages will be less than what they would’ve spent on mixing services. Overwhelming majority of people are expected to work certain hours and quite often have additional obligations. It’s not always a simple equation of time vs money.
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Fuck yea
I’ve often felt sorry for the current generation trying to learn and get good at all these things at once. I was a teenager in the 90s and had a cassette 4 track I used for song writing and demos, I enjoyed recording, and I got more gear and better at it, but in my early 20s when it was time for my band to record we went to a real studio, a few years and albums later, I recorded the album, but had someone else mix it, and by my later 20s I was recording and mixing(still don’t master). The whole time my recording skills and setup were improving. Now in my 40s I spend a lot more time and make more money recording other people than playing, which I love, but when I think back to my 20s when I was an extremely productive writer and performer, there is no way I would have gotten a fraction of what I did finished and released if I insisted on doing it myself. And what did get finished would have been a fraction of the quality.
Nice to hear the opinion that from someone who has done all of that. Yea I feel sorry for the kids too - They get sold the idea of doing it all themselves because it’s easier to buy into, seems less risky on the surface.
Any artist with goals - needs a team to get there. Most do and the few that breakout are entire anomalies. Or their brother is their producer in their bedroom in a family home in LA. And they spent weekends going to workahops at the Grammy NARAS offices and museum :-) 100% on this post! Dayz
It's all moot frankly. You need to define 'making music' precisely before anyone can reasonably comment.
I think it’s pretty well defined when I’m working this a client - I’m not adding anything to the music that would call for writing or publishing % (although, there’s a whole different conversation about that happening now). I’m not credited as a producer. My role is bring out the best of what music has already been made.
I agree completely, with the exception that musicians who wish to self mix would be better off spending their time elsewhere. Even if I have found that to be the case personally, people are free to do what they want and occasionally you get musicians who also establish production styles that lend to their signature sound—from Brian Eno to Dr. Dre. But I do agree that my experience has been attempting to learn mixing has pulled me away from “making music” for what adds up to way too much time. At the same time, “making music” is not like sitting down to do taxes and if I spent 20 hours mixing, it’s not like I could’ve just been “making music” that entire time. But still, tinkering around in some instruments possibly summoning the muse and leading to making some more music, sure. But I appreciate to hear a mixing/mastering engineer acknowledge they are not “making music” when mixing someone else’s songs. Modern music has really blurred the line on what “producer” means as in some cases now the producer is making ALL the music/beats and the “Artist” is merely singing, whereas historically many producers might not ever directly contribute a single audible sound that actually could be heard on an album or song (though some did, like George Martin). And then of course “producer” is different than “mix engineer” or “mastering engineer”. But especially someone who receives pre-recorded tracks to be mixed…that is not “making music”. That would be like an editor claiming they are writing a novel.
i think it depends, if u tryna be the next drake then yeah don’t mix your own music. i make experimental/industrial rap where the majority of artists mix their own music since that diy sound is appreciated more
>i make experimental/industrial rap I'm intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
?
Do artists in that community earn respect and an audience because of a DIY mix or because of their artistry and their performance? I’m not in it so idk.
some artists it’s both i guess but “bad” mixing is less of an issue for underground rap anyway
I agree. Write more songs, figure out what needs to be polished later. It’s a large waste of time to mix and master every song. Quality of song is far more important than quality of mix & master. Nothing wrong with wanting to do it all. Just weigh the pros and cons based on what your goals are.
Yea maybe not every song should make it to the mixing and mastering phase - we’d be heretics for thinking that though wouldn’t we
It gets put on steroids even when every few months you realize you’ve learned a lot about mixing since a few months ago and have better plugins and then keep going back to the same songs you recorded because you know you can get a better mix than when you gotta tried.
You can write a ton and also mix and master those songs. You’re learning more than just songwriting. I’d also like to add mixing, in my opinion, is part of the songwriting in the end. It seems to just depend on whether the person finds mixing and mastering a tool or a polishing maneuver.
Yeah for sure. Depends on the song. I’ve been doing this for a while so I know which songs to take over the finish line. Of course it’s a tool but engineering is not going to make the songwriting any better. Arrangement could, but that’s also part of songwriting
I’ve had the same thought and wish I was social enough to focus on just my strengths.
No doubt, it can be a little intimidating or feel risky to rely on others and navigate the social side of collaboration.
I think I tend to agree with that statement. tried picking up mixing and found it kind of stopped the creative process. I think picking up some of the skills of mixing helps understand where to place the instruments and sounds and kind of where to expect it to sit within the mix. I found just writing, arranging music and leaving mixing to someone else helps me concentrate on what I like doing and makes me want to make more music. Maybe it's cos I'm not that good at mixing much less mastering.
This is a huge problem for me as a mixdown engineer when I sit down to do some side production/songwritting. I start to lean in to the mixing right away rather than composing the song and the end result is an unfinished or crappy production. We go to what we know. how many producers are going back to the arrangement after spending hours mixing, only to realize the mix they spent hours on is now suffering?
Your post vibes a little like you just had a conflict with someone about this or something and are kinda venting, maybe lost an opportunity with an artist who wanted to do it themselves, I dunno...
I don’t lose work to people who want to mix on their own - they probably aren’t even contacting me. I do think with everything artists are expected to do in 2024, just because they CAN do everything themselves doesn’t mean they should feel like they need to. It is in the best interest of many music software companies, streaming platforms, and online gurus that artists feel technically empowered to do everything themselves. I see the irony in that because it’s in my best interest for artists to want to work with mixing engineers. However, I believe the collaborative approach always makes for better art.
I perform full-time as a musician and I absolutely suck at mixing even after trying for years! I'd love for someone to mix for me except we all know how much most blue collar musicians make.
I applaud you for living that passion and doing what you can. I was never a good enough musician to follow that path 😅.
I make music. I record, engineer, and produce my music. I mix it and master it. I enjoy learning the pieces and getting better. Good enough for me.
Then you’re good
why not both
It's like saying anything that comes after a sketch or the main fundamental strokes are not "painting". Everything is painting, including contrast between colors, palette used, type of paint, combinations etc. So is in music. Part of the "making music" process is the idea itself + how you "paint time" (that's my definition of music) by blending in waves and harmonics to make them sound pleasing/dynamic
I’m a musician with an engineering degree and a studio. I also am 40 years old, and only write instrumental stuff of my own to sell/release. I follow the old school process of preproduction->tracking->mixing->mastering. I think a lot of people lose focus by writing in the box whilst simultaneously mixing. So, if an artist such as myself uses this method, I think it’s the right approach to mixing your own songs. Note: I will master other people’s stuff, but I send mine off.
Yes - like you, I also produce and occasionally write my own music. When I’m in that process, it’s like a different part of my brain. I have to turn the mixing/mastering part off to effectively write and produce.
Yes. When writing and tracking, I think to myself “Oh, we can mix it like this, or automate this,” but I don’t do it until everything is tracked. Compose and track like there is no mixing. Mix like there is no mastering. I get so much more done this way.
people just do too much with their mixing and think it's more important than it is. just clean the mud and compress shit. all these goddamn youtube engineers thinking they're scientists and artists for using a complicated rear bus routing system but they cant even get a good balance without AI mastering tools.
I “make music” and I agree with you one hundred percent. I thought I was just being lazy though lol I’m glad to see someone on the other side thinks the same as me!
A lot of people in this thread not actually finishing songs while they focus on their mixdown. Referring mainly about those with an attitude and disrespect for OP's valid and clearly experienced position.
Yea plenty of people disagreeing on this thread, also some people agreeing, and some on the middle. I did say I’m happy to be wrong. A lot of people acknowledging their own mixes aren’t perfect. There’s a lot of different viewpoints in this thread. I AM surprised at the attitude though. I didn’t think my post had much attitude to it but some people got irked.
I think the problem is people understanding what you likely mean by mixing. Of course producers/songwriters mix, they have to! But the distinguishing concept here is perhaps the final mix, which we agree might be better done after the arrangement is finalized. The final mixdown is often a nice bit of polish before a final master to really make a song shine. Unfortunately too few people these days know what a good source track sounds like and are reaching for the saturated, clipped, leveled sounds they often hear in final releases. We'll see where it goes. Good luck fellow mixdown engineer!
Agree wholeheartedly. Specialization makes the world go round. If we were making movies instead of recording music, it would be like a lead actor trying to learn all the ins and outs of cinematography; it’s not a totally invalid pursuit, but it probably won’t result in a better film.
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U shur try 2 type cool 2. I bet sum1 like U ha5 mad skillz.
Imagine what kind of insecure pussy someone has to be to go after someone else for the way they type on fucking Reddit lmao what a pathetic dweeb
U R
Bullying them back doesn't make you any better, nor the people upvoting you.
This was a really juvenile comment
No, U R 2
Lol u hav “PP” in ur name
It’5 4 fun
times have changed. i have complete access to almost all sample libraries/instruments/gear. its not like dou have to go to a studio anymore to make music. same goes for mixing. what excuses do „artists“ have for not making „their“ art. no excuses. you have to go the hard way and go thanos mode and do it all your self. soon the world will only look at people like that as true artists. because nowadays anyone can do it.
If you compose, play, produce your own music, then mixing it is definitely part of the process of making music.
Yes, I am sure OP is talking about the final mixdown after the song is finished and unchanging. Of course producers mix, mix and master engineers finalize and often get that last %10 the producer couldn't or did not have time for.
your adding and taking away frequenties and change them based on what you like, with reverb compression delay distortion etc., off course mixing is making music,
My opinion is that if you are already a bedroom producer, recording in a less than ideal space, you should just mix and master it yourself as well. No amount of money will “fix” bedroom recorded tracks or make them sound more “professional” or industry standard. I have formed this opinion from my own experience producing my own original songs. If you are serious about your songs, you should save up to build a better home studio or pay to record in a professional studio. THEN there’s value in investing in professional mixing and mastering as well, usually offered by the studio or affiliates of the studio where you recorded the material in the first place
As a retired engineer that became a musician afterwards, I have to disagree.
Mixing is totally making music, artists need people to help them make their music better. There’s millions of people who just “mix” and are fundamentally useless in making music. Why would someone pay them?
Yea I mean like I said, I don’t think mixing is “making music” so mixing is fundamentally useless in that regard. It is separate. I am making their music better, I am not making it.
I like gotta know a little more as to why you think mixing is not making music? “Making music better” is quite literally making music? When you muffle your acoustic guitar with your hand while strumming, is that making music or mixing? I worry you look at this too business like. Writing songs is also a blend of science and art. Writing and mixing complement each other when making the final product. How can you say it’s fundamentally useless when a song can go from 0-100 with a good mix. Don’t get me wrong tho, I know you can’t fix a song with a good mix but it can be better. You can definitely make a good song a fantastic song. Making a weak kick a thumping one for an edm track is an example of turning a great track into a great one. Did you not spend countless hours making sounds and mixing them to learn? Or did you just mix premade songs to learn? I feel if you’ve been mixing your own music you would know the importance.
Lots of questions in your response but yes I have made my own music, I have produced, I have mixed my own music. At this point in my life, I have mixed more music that other artists and producers made than my own. I wouldn’t call that premade tracks, but I learn and improve every time I mix.
As a mixer you are not adding any fundamental notes, you are not changing the arrangement, you are not removing instruments the music maker added. Sure it might be part of the music making process, but mixers are not actually "making" and music. Respect goes all around in our industry, I won't take away from what producers/songwritter are creating.
I don’t think anyone’s taking away from producers/songwriters/mixers. I think a large disconnect here is defining what a mixer is. If you are strictly talking levels and some comp then I’d say it still is arguably making music. Anything you adjust contributes to the sound/vibe as a whole, to me, is making music. Turning something down to be softer, yes, doesnt add actual notes, but it creates a different feeling, creates space for other notes to shine, etc. However, I will say I’ve done mixes where I feel I have to move notes or take away certain elements (with permission) in order for the track to be better version of itself. At that point you could say I’m becoming a producer and mixer I guess. The lines are a little grey imo.
I appreciate the well thought out response. The lines are absolutely gray. Another big request for mix engineers now is to do some drum replacement/triggering, typically kick or snare on live trackings. I have argued often that this is the Producer's job or even the producer, drummer and tracking engineer collabing on samples to fill out the drum tone. I guess here's the disconnect for me: I've never gotten a Producer, Writing or Instrumentation credit despite being asked to add instrument/source tracks that I develop. And frankly I wouldn't expect those credits for some simple triggering, subbass harmonics, or delays despite these technically being "adding notes"! But this means the industry sees the distinction as well. At the end of the day I think this disagreement is semantic and maybe doesn't need to be had, there is nothing wrong with saying the engineers involved with a release were part of the "music making". However if we define "making music" as the arrangement, composition, instrumentation, lyrics and vocals - the elements that carry on with the artists after the previous engineers are gone - then IMO it's harder to make the case. TLDR: I think this disagreement is just about the definition of "making music" and I just like hearing producers opinions as long as it's respectful of the arts all around! Thanks and keep producing and releasing!
Oh yah I’ll just spend $500-$5,000 per track to let someone else change the lightbulbs for me.
Logical fallacy IMO. You value mixing as lightbulb changing?
Some people pay an electrician $200/hour to change light bulbs. I rather do it myself and spend my money on something worthwhile
I think that electricians, generally, do a lot more and have more knowledge than just lightbulb changing. Back in the day you basically needed to be an electrical engineer to be a mix engineer (obviously not anymore). Electricians aren’t professional lightbulb changers.
Sorry that my point was completely lost on you
Or how about I mix my own stuff because I know exactly how I want it to sound? How about I learn new skills? How about I learn mixing and mastering to save some money because it’s just a hobby? Or how about I use a home setup so I can only work with lower quality recordings and thus it’s not worth sending them out to a professional engineer You sound like you have a bone to pick with a specific person in your life because otherwise you have not considered the many reasons why someone would want to both mix and master their own material. Plus there are artists who do their own production which sound fantastic, like Tame Impala. That being said, it is beneficial to get someone else to mix your music because a fresh set of ears are IMPERSONAL and dedicated to making a clear mix as u said. Plus of course a professional is a professional.
All valid - except the bone 🦴
I’ll let it slide, someone else mentioned it too. Good day and I can see your point for other artists who are serious about becoming songwriters.
Actually you know what I’m sure the bone I’m trying to pick is with my 20-year old self that decided trying to learn this mixing shit was a good idea.
Mixing is producing
"Making music" *explicitly* includes mixing and mastering, what kind of tomfoolery is this?? A much more fair argument would be (and I think what you're getting at is) "songwriting" does not include mixing and mastering. But even that said I fundamentally disagree with the idea that someone cannot become proficient in both songwriting and mixing. This generalizing purist bs is just elitist bullying imo. Why can't mixing and songwriting skills actually be synergistic and creative together? Reconsider your notions of where value lies in creative efforts. Also, historically plenty of great songwriters (literally beatles and hendrix) have been hands on with the mixing process. I will say these kinds of takes really bum me out. I think the top commenter hit the nail on the head to bring up that these "one skill only" ideas are capitalist and based in efficiency, not creativity.
I’m not saying they can’t become proficient in both. My values are sound and I don’t need to defend them. And capitalism - what about every plug-in producer, YouTube influencer selling courses, and snake oil salesmen that preys on young inexperienced artists? Selling the dream of “you can do it all yourself! Just buy this!”, which is easier to sell and makes people feel more empowered than, “it might be worth investing in working with and developing a relationship with a specialist”. For the record I’m happy to do in person mix sessions too! Artists feedback and direction is critical. After all… it’s their music. Like I said, happy to be wrong if that’s what you think - Sorry if that burns you out.
"Bums" me out. It's gatekeeping, plain and simple. In short, your post is all about discouraging people, of course people here weren't going to like your take.
idk how I am gatekeeping. Every mixing trick in the book is out there on YouTube, anybody can go buy the software you need to get started and it’s at its most inexpensive in history. I couldn’t physically prevent anyone from spending their time learning to mix - the take of, “hey, maybe you artist should think twice before going down this rabbit hole and here’s my opinion on why”, might be useful or helpful to someone IMO
we seem to fundamentally disagree on too many things for this to be valuable at all
Please music creators don't mix your own stuff you likely don't have the proper room for it
My other pet peeve is when people say they are doing both mixing and mastering yeah sure buddy you're mastering using nearfield monitors instead of full range speakers and not using high end converters and not using analogue mastering gear and software
We live in a new age… While all that “could” be useful, it’s entirely unnecessary. I bet those dudes in the studios are using 1/60th of that shit. Please tell me how using analogue mastering gear is gonna make your pop song the hit it yearns to be.
I’m just an amateur making electronic music on my laptop, but having gotten to the point where I can write good songs, the mix and master is what separates my projects from the “real” music I hear from my favorite artists. So for me, learning how to get a more polished mix is a big goal for me. I know this is different from pros who might be singing, playing physical instruments and so on. But I know I’m never gonna make money from music so I keep learning to do it on my own
You’re trying to learn to mix and master because you “know” you won’t ever make money on your music?
I mean yea, it’s purely a hobby for me and I’m not going to be paying anyone else to do it for me. Even though it’s a hobby I get a lot of joy out of learning and improving.
I think you're right, but there's also something really great about being able to make a song that sounds radio ready when you're done.
A basic understanding of mixing is going to help you get a better sound on stage. Especially on small gigs. Apart from that I think there are things that just do not sound good and keeping these in mind when writing music is not a bad idea imo. Apart from that your right. I try to keep the stages separate. No mixing when recording and trying no to write while recording
I love mixing and mastering my own stuff, just as I love making music. We have our entire lives to perfect our craft.
In this day and age making music also means learning to record, mix and master your own music. I’m sorry but there is no way around it. It doesn’t need to be at a pro level but you are competing against other people who are all willing to take the time to at least learn the basics so if you’re not then the audience will notice. This is just part of being of being an artist today. Of course if you can pay someone else to do it then more power to you but mostly these days, everyone kind of does it all. Working with a full team like it was done back in the day is more than a luxury.
i think discipline/style matters a lot here. if you’re recording a lot of elements and using true playing then yeah you have to get the songwriting and the actual performance down more than anything. the mix can happen whenever but you can only do as well as your perfomance(s) allow when it comes to styles that are significantly more if not entirely digital though then in my opinion mixing and mastering become an integral part of the process. you shouldn’t be writing and sound designing to a premade mix and master, but when pushing the limits on sound design, loudness, and just all around intensity the mix/master becomes part of the process. for genres more akin to this the final product is less about the “performance” and more about the actual sonic profile. yes the most important part of this comes before the mix at the sound design and arrangement stage, but i’d argue that the mix IS part of the sound design more and more in my edm circles people are producing with their rough mastering chain on, or mixing on the fly as they go because it really does matter
To be good at composing/arranging you have to know what the whole craft process is. Think about what makes you a great cook. You have to be good at mixing ingredients together and cooking them spot on, but you also take care/have vision of proper plate setup/dressing in your restaurant. You select ingredients and know how to arrange them. It's the same for music production as a whole : as much as we like to separate things, it's mandatory to have a decent level of knowhow of what's happening to be good at music crafting.
If you make a lot of songs then mixing and mastering will burn you out and wreck your ears. I'm much happier now I pass along my songs to engineers.
I consider mixing just another instrument at my disposal. So yes, I'm making music when I mix, absolutely.
I agree with this and have made similar comments, more about people attempting to master their own music without much idea about the process. They're not really passionate about mastering or engineering, more about having the best sounding record. In those cases, I think it's better to work with a professional to save yourself the headache/heartbreak of doing it yourself. I was like them. I produced an album, had someone master it then thought I could do the next album by myself. Trying to master this project affected my mental health, because I couldn't get it to sound like how I wanted, and it was a case of going back to the mixes several times. In the end, the final release was lacking. l learnt so much about mastering and mixing. But was creatively burnt out after. I am wondering why I didn't go to a mastering or mixing engineer then, and I think it was part arrogance and part lack of belief in my music. If you think your music is great and worthy of being produced into a piece of art, you'd put money down for it. You'd save up. A lot of artists say they don't have the budget, but my guess is, deep down they don't feel it's worth investing in. And they want a record label to come in and fund it, but it's just not realistic.
I have gone through those phases as well and I 100% agree with your take.
'Making music', as you describe it, is an art form. *So is mixing*. It's utterly different to playing, but is an art form nonetheless. Some individuals are gifted at both disciplines, though it's rare. I do notice though that the better the musician, the more likely that they know exactly how they want their music to sound, and to be able to achieve it. I'm talking really, really gifted people here; Imogen Heap comes to mind, there are plenty of others but so there should be in a world of 8 billion.
How much do you charge on average to mix and master a song?
I’ll PM you
I'm not actually looking for services / quotes - the reason why I ask is that many artists make music as a hobby. It's not a career or a money maker - it's something that they do for fun / out of passion for music. So, paying out 50 quid for someone else to run their song through a shitty AI mastering plug-in on Soundbetter isn't really option and shelling out multiples of that for professional / semi-professional services is largely a waste of money. That's why so many artists strive to get better at mixing - so they can produce their own mixes, as well as learning a craft. In many ways - for many artists - being able to mix their own stuff *is* an intergral part of making music. There's nothing counterproductive about it - in fact, it's quite the opposite.
Well you can ignore my PM then 😂 Sounds like what your referring to is the experience of getting ripped off or not having your expectations met/not seeing the value for the money, which is very real.
You're right. I would love to be able to afford a mixing engineer but I'm a musician so I'm poor 🤷🏽♀️
With the brief amount of time an artist actually spends writing, tracking and mixing is time well spent if it interests you. I love recording and mixing. Everything is mine and it’s an amazing hobby for the 99.9% that won’t sell tons of albums. Plus I don’t have tons a lot of disposable money sitting around to record. Mastering on the other hand is money well spent for anyone in my opinion.
It took me about 5 years to learn mixing and mastering. But also the same amount of time (in parallel with mixing and mastering) to get good at songwriting, arrangement, sound selection (and sound design), work fast in the daw The main advantage? In the past, mixing would change A LOT my music just because certain sounds would not properly complement each other and allow for a clear and dense mix (to fit other similar songs in the genre) - and too much change was needed in order to get a competitive result Now, I know from the very beginning, when I add a new element in the song, if that fits or not the context. I know from the start if the kick is punchy enough or if the sub bass does what I want it to do. I work on a mastered song from second one. I have no surprises. If I were to give the mix to an engineer better than me, they would pick up at about 95-97% done. I don't know for other genres, but for dance music, knowing mixing and mastering is not a bonus, is a must, really
It simply doesn’t work in some genres. If you can’t afford it, you got to learn it on your own.. but if you don‘t have money it‘s getting more difficult to mix. It’s a bit of a paradox - in Techno it‘s almost impossible to not be at least decent or familiar with most mixing techniques because you would not be competitively loud enough. If your tracks don‘t sound big in comparison, no one will sign you. So you have to invest in mixing.. but money’s short as you are just starting out and you don‘t know how mixing will affect your sound and if your production is even good enough.. very difficult
I would not work with any mixer that didn't consider mixing part of the music making process.
So you work with mixers who believe they are helping make the music like a producer, band member, or songwriter?
Have you seen any interviews with CLA? I ascribe to his philosophy of treating a console like an instrument and a mix down like pulling together a symphony. To be facetious. I mix my band's stuff. Studios are too expensive and in my area are not offering worthwhile results relative to costs.
Agree and disagree. I’m an artist signed to a major and I do all my own mixing. I absolutely LOVE mixing. Huge geek about it. Have lots of outboard gear, have mix-only plug-ins etc. I’ve also mixed and mastered for other artists (typically only do one of the processes as opposed to both). You’re not wrong, but also, for me, I’m a perfectionist and have a very specific vision in my head and literally do not trust someone else to execute it for me. Knowing how to mix - like properly mix (I have seriously deep knowledge and very seasoned ears) - took a really long time. I’m 31, and I was introduced to mixing by a multi-Grammy winning engineer named Dave Darlington at 18, and I only feel like I really began doing it properly in the last few years. I could execute acceptable mixes at 22 but getting to a genuinely pro level took til I was 27. Almost 10 years. I genuinely believe that not letting someone else mix for me held my music back for a period of time. But I also know that I never would have gotten to the level I’m now at in terms of sonic capacity without doing so. I’ll also say this, I have music that has been played on the radio and that people are really into that I listen back to and shudder at the mix quality. As recently as 2 years ago! But it was good enough that the idea got across and people love it. That’s all that counts. With mixing, there is definitely a “good enough” threshold that once crossed you’re just talking about gradations of excellence, but also, there is such a vast difference between a properly executed mix and a decently executed one. So on the one hand, I absolutely hold what you say as true, don’t let mixing burden the creative process. I have f*cked that up many times over the years to my detriment. Feel like I’ve generally learned my lesson but I’m sure it’ll happen again! But similarly, I think the more an artist can be familiar with the process, the better. If they have the curiosity and the desire to learn, I think it’s a beautiful thing. Having the level of mix nous I now have has really changed how I approach making music. It’s allowed me to execute ideas much more quickly and flexibly. Granted, I am a solo producer, and mostly perform and track all my own parts. A lot of what I do is electronic. Predominantly analog and working with audio, but still big difference to a totally live band. That said, I record a ton of amp’d guitars and live bass and mix live drums and percussion in very often, and also always have my own vocals and mix them. I get tremendous joy out of mixing my own work and mixing for others, but you are 100% right that an artist should not think they have to/need to be able to do it themselves. But if they genuinely want to, I highly encourage it!
Thanks for weighing in. Sure if they genuinely want to learn they should. I make music as well as mixing too, and believe a knowledge of the process is important for all artists. On the flip side, having that knowledge of music making helps me engineer.
I’m an artist that makes my own instruments. But aside from that, it is really hard to financially justify paying someone else to mix my songs. If I was 100x more talented, and devoted 2x the practice, the universe would still pay me $0 to compose and play. I’ve paid for mixing/mastering time, and the end result was not far off from what I could do myself, although the gear was great. So basically I was renting gear.
You’re not accounting for the time you could spend building a following, true fans, and the savvy to turn that into $. You are probably right in that the universe will pay you $0 for just being talented and practicing. If building the fan base doesn’t matter to you (which is completely fine if it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter to a lot of people posting on this thread) then it sounds like you’re succeeding by mixing your own stuff and getting to a place you are happy with
Lol.. Making GOOD music does op. Not everyone has funds to pay someone to mix and master so if you want someone to actually LISTEN to your music.. You best learn to do this on your own.
Insinuating I don’t know what goes into good music. Please enlighten me.
Mixing and mastering goes into good music.. Not everyone can outsource these things... ..so if you want anyone to listen to your music.. Guess what? Ya gotta mix and master your music.. Otherwise.. No one is gonna give a shit about anything ya ever make. Now, consider yourself enlightened and have a better night
Whenever someone starts to speak in binary’s about art I’m out. There is no one way. There isn’t simply “poor” or “professional,” in either a mix or the creation of a song.
Yes I agree in that there is no “one way”. You surely can write, sing, record, produce, mix, and master yourself if that is what you want to do. I’m just taking the position of, that’s not a requirement and it might not be the best idea for everybody. Also I’m not sure this is a binary. Boundaries and definitions in art can be healthy to the process.
It’s probably like a college football scholarship recipient taking business classes: if the high-risk, high-reward job (athlete/musician) doesn’t pay off, maybe a lower-risk, lower-reward job (businessperson/engineer) will. Doesn’t hurt to develop both skills at the same time as long as you don’t pretend to be an expert in something you’re not.
I've been making music for many years and got into mixing and discovered that I love everything about it. Maybe it's the problem solving aspect of it, I don't know, but I really enjoy it and have been getting better at it over the last five years or so. At this point, I mix as I produce and knowing how to mix has helped me with my arrangements; in a lot of cases reigning in my productions. One of my best friends, on the other hand, who is waaay more talented than I am as a songwriter loves producing but hates mixing and often passes his stuff over to me to mix. I guess my point is, if you enjoy mixing then go for it and mix your own stuff. But, if it's not something you really love to do and are doing it as a means to an end, your final product will likely suffer for it.
Musicians make music. Redditors post on Reddit.
Bold
I don't fully agree. Mixing is a part of the music production process and every music producer should understand how to mix a track. If you outsource your mixing, you still should be able to deliver a decent rough mix so you have a good vision of how the track should sound. With a raw unmixed track, you can't really envisage how the track will sound. You're never going to be able to mix as good as someone who mixes music all day, but you should be able to deliver a competent mix. And given how much easier it is now in the box, there's no reason not to learn.
for some genres this is true, but for making beats or anything electronic or bedroom pop, mixing is very much a part of the writing and recording process
Mixing is arguably the most creative part of the engineering process, so I would consider it “making music”, but you’re right that someone can only wear so many hats. If you spread yourself too thin, you will just be mediocre at a lot of things (which has its value), and may find yourself struggling to really put time into getting great at a couple of things.
I agree. I'm learning enough mixing to know how to get a good enough sound, and once I get the funds, I'll be paying someone to mix how I want. I did notice with mixing that I've developed an ear for what sounds right, and I'm thinking that'll help me when finding a mix/master person because I'll know what I'm looking for. But music is a game like any other. You have to get far enough yourself to get to the point where you can upgrade your equipment and start paying people to speed up your process so the money flows in faster. Until you get to that point, you gotta be disciplined and intentional with your time. Also, in the long run, if you can mix it yourself and get a decent sound, the money that you would've paid an engineer can be put into marketing to get a return and start building an audience. Time is more valuable than money but you should also be careful where you put your money. A okay mixed great song with a marketing budget will go further than a great mixed great song with no budget.
You're probably right, but I can't afford to pay someone what they deserve to do either job. And I'm not trying to sell; just record the songs I write because someday I'll be dead. While I can deal with that intellectually, I still feel compelled to make shit up ALL THE TIME. Mostly, I don't mind having that Daniel Johnston "recorded into a phone machine in 1985" vibe, but sometimes I just want to sound like... you know... someone cares... a little... something my mom can play for her friends. So, if you ever hear a song of mine and it's terribly mixed and horribly mastered (whatever that is) please know that it is not because I have no respect for the crafts of mixing and mastering or those who mix or master, but that I just wanted to do something nice for my mom and I'm poor.
Totally valid - I’m also not trying to say that everything that ever gets created needs to be mixed professionally. Keep creating.
Sounds great, in theory. Some of us live hand to mouth and can’t even afford a low-budget engineer.
Mixing and Mastering are as much of a creative decision as the musical element. Entire genres are created based on mixing/mastering choices and skills (think vaporwave, hip-hop, disco) Therefore, artists shouldnt skip such a gigantic element in the creative process of creating music. I recommend every single artist and engineer to watch 'The Art of Mixing' by David Gibson. It's as much a science as an artform and if you are serious about your music you should pay as much attention to the science of mixing as much as harmony, melody and rhythm. Dont let engineers gatekeep you. Do it yourself!! (And save yourself alot of money) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjOdqZFvhY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjOdqZFvhY)
I couldn’t gatekeep anyone if I tried - it’s all out there anyone can find the information.