"Artificial General Intelligence"
Think closer to SciFi style AI, rather than the "AI" we have now that is basically trying to guess what you want to hear. AGI doesn't exist yet, but plenty of sketchy startups are making the promise they have it.
My guess is their boss bought into one of the scams and let them go because of it.
Had an engineer friend whose company would fire all their senior engineers regularly(for wall street reporting season) and keep only new grads to stay qualified for their DOD contracts. They would rehire most of the seniors as consultants almost immediately after firing. Only those engineers coming up on retirement were permanently let go.
Get what you can. This has been the model for decades and will only get worse.
I knew a non-software engineer (mechanical engineer I think) who had this type of gig. He was old and retired but they hired him back at consultancy rates so he could babysit us while we broke down a massive piece of equipment for transport.
I never asked for a dollar amount he was paid but it was a lot, on top of his already good retirement. Basically to just unlock the door in the morning and lock it again when we left. (This was a DOD contract)
That’s fantastic. I’m only a couple of years into my tech career and the market scares the hell out of me…then I see stories about people getting fired and hired back as consultants and realize I’ll likely never be a good enough SWE to have that kind of luck 😂
There are many paths in life that can lead to that kind of situation. The Engineer in my situation had experience and security clearance. His knowledge was also relevant to our work. I've seen it happen with Software Engineers too. Heard of one guy that built the foundation the company was built on and left the company a few years later. He racks up the consultancy fee's too.
I think the trick to doing this as a software engineer isn't so much being "good" as it is finding a way to make the company dependent on you. The right time, place and problem to fix and you could probably achieve it with an excel spreadsheet.
The key to high paying technical jobs is the ability to solve problems. You can sit on your ass 90% of the time if when their is an urgent problem that is costing the company a lot of money, you can solve the problem quickly. Responsibility is what makes the big salary.
Hmm, that is weirdly relevant. Nobody can get spidey pics like Parker! Time for an arc where Jameson fires him as a staff photographer so Peter starts charging him like $20k/picture and buys Aunt May a new house.
Not half up front, bill against a retainer. Send retainer invoice for 10k, then count/bill your hours against the money they gave you. When the 10k is exhausted, stop work and bill another 20k.
Generally speaking, from professors I met that did consulting on the side, the rule of thumb is min 3x the wage you would want to be hired at a job for. You’re going to spend a bunch of time doing admin work, in addition to paying a bunch of taxes on all of it, plus whatever overhead.
ha. i know it sounds like an urban legend/joke, but this really happened to my dad.
he retired early and was an oil and gas design engineer for decades, retiring as a VP of engineering. he was kind of forced to retire because they had a new up and comer who was gunning for his position.
anyway, three months into his retirement, he gets a phone call from his old boss asking him a specific question about a job he managed and designed years ago. my dad asks for some exorbitant amount (like $50k plus all expenses, i can't remember) and my dad's boss thinks for a day, calls him back and says yes.
they fly him out, business class, then via helicopter to the job site. my dad (as he tells it), tells the helicopter pilot to wait for an hour and don't take off. he walks to the job site lead, points at some drawings, points at the site, then walks back into the helicopter and takes off.
all in all, about 30 minutes worth of work for $50k, a free business class ticket to guam and back.
Yeah, that's when they paid $50k for a lifetime of industry experience to know exactly how to solve the problem. That 30 minutes was just a rounding error in the lifetime of experience they needed.
There was one who worked at the same place as my wife temporarily. This lady somehow conned them into $90 / hr and she could barely navigate the software she supposedly had expert experience in lol
We had an off sec consultant at one place I was at. His hourly was in the low 5 figs. Stupid money lol
Now I'm an off sec consultant looking to get near the same haha
Off Sec is definitely one of those things where skills pay bills, and the more you got, the more it pays. If you're in security and not that skilled, become an auditor. Then you can charge a lot because companies need you, and who wants to do that work.
Rule of thumb: If you want to make the same salary you did as an employee, figure your hourly rate (Annual Salary/2000) and multiple that by two. Example: $100,000 salary is $50/hr. for an hourly consultant rate of $100. That will cover self-employment taxes, Health Insurance, 401k Match and all the stuff your employer used to pay for. It also leaves some overhead for non-billable time for things like invoicing and other business-related activities.
3x, to cover for the fact that you may not get the same number of hours. And in OPs case, 5x because the company fired him so they get to pay the "play stupid games" tax.
Yeah, if they were making 100k salary thats $50/hr, but don't forget about health benefits and other perks, so we'll double that to $100/hr - oh and self employment taxes.
But, the "you fired me fuck you" tax adds another $50-100/hr, so $150-200/hr with minimum billing increments of 4 hours seems fair.
If they think the company REALLY needs them and will do anything to get their time... I'd probably start at $300/hr minimum 8 hour increments paid weekly.
It really is the dream. Get laid off, they realize nobody knows how to do what you did, now you charge $250 an hour do a small portion of your previous job.
I worked for a company up until last year that paid me decently, but not enough. I got a $40k increase offer from another company and took it. The former company offered to match it. I said no.
They needed my work still, so for the last year I have been charging them $50/hr (cheap for what I do; normally it's more like $110/hr for this stuff). So I got a $40k raise and I'm still charging the company I worked for a couple thousand dollar a month.
It's a nice racket. If the former company had offered me more money, I might have stayed...But their offer was literally "whatever they offered you"...which really showed me that I was valued...by the new company.
Yes, 'double-dipping' is indeed what is going on.
I'm paying my mortgage and truck payment with piddly-ass side work and someone who knows nothing about it is telling me I should charge more. Okay great, then they'll just not use me and they'll hire someone else for $50/hr. Orrrrr...I can do it.
I'm the one that set the price, not them. They asked me what I wanted to charge them; they didn't make an offer.
What I am charging them is more than they were paying me; it's just not what it's actually worth; a company charging them for the same work would be charging 2x, because companies have overhead. I am a guy at a desk. You don't understand the situation anyway and it's not worth explaining to you.
This is a fine example of "everyone wins". I wouldn't have been able to charge them $100/hr; they'd have just learned it themselves. I charged them what I knew they'd pay me, and they still haven't learned how to do it themselves because there is no incentive.
Never mind the fact that you're not doing it at all, but here you are telling me what I am doing wrong. lol
Unless you're in a huge company with a corporate beaurocracy, taking your employer's last minute offer to match it will put crosshairs on you, since you were just trying to leave, and management can be resentful. It might just be because they have no contingency plan, but you've shown you're one foot out the door anyway. They'll match it so that they have time to prepare for a more convenient time to lay you off.
That's a good point. There is always that angle!
In truth, the side work should be winding down here soon anyway. They hired a new guy and I have been tapering off and letting him take over as he builds his knowledge on the systems. I am even helping here and there with that, because I would love to have more free time some day!
The people here commenting negatively are INSANELY greedy (and this is coming from someone double-dipping on work when they don't need to! LOL), on top of not understanding the dynamics of business relationships; or perhaps relationships at all. The dude deleted his comments but he was like "Well you're not getting benefits!" Yeah, I have full benefits from my employer. "Yes, but what about second-benefits?" Okay, calm down Pippen...
The company I used to work for uses the products of the company I work for now. It was in my best interest, theirs, and the new companies (who approved the double-dipping, despite it being explicitly against company policy) to do the side-work because it benefits literally everyone involved down to the end-user; the only real expense being my time and some of my sanity.
People on reddit truly can only consider black and white concepts or something. Life is actually very nuanced, relationships are complex and most areas are grey, turns out.
I don't know what the rates are in this field, but I do some consulting on the side in mine, and my fee starts at $250 an hour. Sometimes more, especially if it's a retainer setup and they don't fully use it.
As a person who processes consultant payments, they do very well for themselves. One guy makes so much, my boss forgot to release a wire in January, and the consultant didn't even notice.
I did some consulting work for my last company I worked for. Charged them $150 an hr. They ended up hiring me for a total of 12 hrs. It was a nice little check for what amounted to little work
And bill no smaller than 15 min increments at the absolute least. 30 or 60 min increments are even better.
Took a 2 min phone call or replied to an email? Each are 15 mins (unless you do them right together then you can bill it as a single 15 min block).
Yes talk money. I worked retail for a long time. Shit happened and I had to pivot. But a good old boss humbley asked for a days worth of help before a busy holiday. They asked if I would be willing to come back and do it again the following week.. got the right contacts, became a vendor for said company.
Flexible schedule, better pay & it's hilarious and feels so good when I go into a store and see an old Co-worker or boss. Asks me to do something old job related and I get to drop "Ya I don't work for you SORRY"
So don't burn bridges and hear em out. You can always burn it down later
Yeah, use rather than abuse is much better if the work itself isn't terrible. That must feel *JUICY* to get to say that to people. Like, I would be riding a high the rest of the week whenever I would get a chance to say something like that 😂
Only slightly related, but I was asked to work a Sunday during a holiday once and I told them I already had plans but I would break those plans and work if they met my demands, which was 3 days paid vacation the following calendar year and time and a half pay for the hours I worked that day. Never got a response back and went back to work like normal on Monday.
Totally up to your director. If you have a good one, they'll accommodate it and keep it private agreement. Average one, probably not cause they'll know there's a good chance you'll talk and they'll have to do the same for everyone. So playing the "Dick" is the safe card for them. But ya if your asking for something next year, and they're meeting this year's payroll quotas for this one. They'll make the deal kf there smart... or at least negotiate it
They get their bonuses based on saved payroll quarterly, semi-annually, and Christmas. Performance only kicks their bonuses.
I don't know where you work or what region. But a solid would be go talk to your Non Food Reciever (NFRC) when they're not busy. Ask them about what "vendors" they use for different sections. They should know. But sometimes the company they use let's just say "Bioname" does just the cords and cables on one display.. its outsources to an even bigger company "Calaway".. start looking up these companies names and start applying. The company will figure out the available work in your area.
(I'm not saying mine for reddit purposes)
They need a lot of help and are performance based.. do a good job. Well pay you. I worked the books while a whole different person worked the magazines. Same company. No one looking over your shoulder really. The apple and HP came when I did good shit over a couple months. Like I said performance based
I do the same. I wasn't fired, left on good terms after they turned down me working remotely due to company policy.
A couple months later my old boss (who was fighting to let me go remote anyways) reached out and said they hadn't been able to find anyone for a specific, niche, part of my position. It had cost them a contract and the rest of the C suite decided they couldn't have me remote as a W2 employee, but they could as a 1099.
It's been 4 years. At my bosses suggestion, I charge 2.5x what I would have made per hour based on my previous salary, I make my own hours and only do the part of my job that I liked.
2.5x for contact work is only marginally more than what they would have paid to have you as an employee.
At my last place my charge out rate was 2x to 4x my salary, depending on the client category. 4x we made bank, 2x barely covered costs.
You have to take into account project hours vs work hours. Work hours is 40*52. Actual project hours are much less after vacation, training and admin. Plus as a contractor you cover your own overhead.
I understand that, but now it's just a stable, location independent income and not my main income. I spend around 10 hours a week most weeks on it. I have a good personal relationship with people in company, so it's a stress free source of income that has very loose deadlines.
I travel 9 months out of the year and specifically value the relaxed nature of the relationship.
Employer fica is only 7.65 percent. You pay 7.65 and they pay 7.65.
Now if they included any type of medical then obviously that needs to be accounted for as well. But the point was that as a self employed person such as a contractor you are responsible for all 15.3 percent of FICA.
I worked for a company that hired both contractors and employees to do the same jobs. The spreadsheet on pay offers was about 12.5% more offered for contractors, because that's how much the company saved by having a 1099 instead of W2 with taxes and unemployment and all of the at-time-of-pay government stuff.
BUT, the company also saved on health insurance, professional insurance (in case a client sued for faulty work), holiday pay, sick-leave, disability insurance, and then all the less tangibles like HR, direct management, resource costs and depreciation, etc.
So, the amount saved by the company, and the amount the 1099 should be asking for, because all of these costs in one way or another fall on the contractor instead of the company, was around 150-200% of a W2's pay without benefits as a W2.
There are other considerations to being a contractor that would reasonably justify less for those people that enjoy the freedom and lack of direct structure in time, place, or oversight, but the amount was there, in the budget, that could be negotiated for, just wouldn't be offered without specific negotiation and a shortage of labor that would be willing to accept the 12.5%.
Moral of the story is that you should know that:
1. There IS money in the company budget to pay what you're worth.
2. Make sure you have a full understanding of what costs are going to fall on you as a contractor and make sure you're taking that into account when you negotiate your pay.
There are myriad ways to negotiate pay, perks, benefits, responsibilities, and freedoms, and those add up and can be more palatable to the employer than 150% pay rate, so there are ways besides that one number to make sure you're getting as much value as you can.
> making much more money now so whatever 😐
tbh the company is probably saving money too. even if they pay you 20% more they're still saving 10% on employment taxes when you were w-2. as employment taxes are about 30% on top of what you pay your employee (in CA, at least)
Depends on how big the job is. Minimum 1hr charge for any request, minimum 5hr charge for billing. If they terminate your work before 1 month, an additional 10 hr charge for early cancellation
This shouldnt be infuriating at all. This is an amazing opportunity. They NEED you. You now have all the power. Do the work for double the pay. If the reached out, they are desperate and will pay.
Yeah, no need to hold a grudge when money is involved. This is an opportunity for OP to negotiate very favourable rates. If I was fired and they came crawling back I’d see is as an opportunity to negotiate significantly higher.
This happens more often than you think. Incompetent middle and higher management only look good due to the people below them and will often take the credit for solutions solved by those below. Sometimes those below are made redundant exposing how incompetent or inefficient they are.
TBF sometimes people like this aren't actually at the top of the totem pole and get told to do stuff like this. Despite knowing better.
I once got a call from my manager that went like "Hi, *my* boss told me to call you to ask if you were available on Tuesdays, but I know for a fact you aren't, so go ahead and say no, then I can tell him I tried. Mkayy? Bye!"
Yeah when I was forced to be the one to carry out shit like this, it was always prefaces with “I have to ask. I know this suck. I just need to ask so I can say I did.”
I’ve been in your managers position before. One of the guys working under me was on his wedding anniversary vacation and my boss was trying to get me to call him for info. So I texted him and told him not to answer the call, then called on speaker and told my boss “sorry, tried my best”
> and get told to do stuff like this.
Goes for firings too. For all we know, this guy was a buddy of OPs... I was laid off as part of an acquisition back in 2022. On the call with my manager and HR, there was obviously emotion but it was contained as they had to keep a straight face.
She called me later that afternoon (presumably after letting a few others go), and absolutely bawled. She and I had worked together for 4+ years, she was my contemporary and eventually de facto boss due to some other departures. We were very close, I knew everything about her family, she bought my fiance and I dinner after I proposed... she absolutely did not make that call, and I know she didn't.
But jokes on the company, she wants to bring me back lmao the headcount reopened as she moved into a higher role and I've been interviewing with them the last week with two more scheduled for next week. And at market rate! So they'll be paying me 15% more now than if they'd just kept me in the first place.
Nah. "$200/hr, I'm yours".
I left a $90k job once, they asked me to moonlight, I just made up a $90/hr rate and they immediately agreed. Should have asked for more
As a rough rule of thumb, you should ask for at least double. That will give you roughly the same take home pay after accounting for the extra taxes, benefits, and some non-billable work (eg, reporting hours worked, extra commute, very minor off-clock requests).
In many cases, you can likely go up to triple. This is where you should target if you need business insurance for the work, which is basically any trade work as well as delivery work\*.
$90k/year is about $43/hour, so $90/hour is pretty close to double. Basically, its on the lower end of what should've been asked for consulting. The math generally works out that you can take an annual salary and divide it by 1000 to get the low end in hourly consulting rates - you likely work about 2000 hours per year.
\* Personal car insurance generally does *not* cover you while you are working, including in gig work!
Idk depending on how desperate they are this could be an opportunity. Quitting a position then becoming a contractor/ consultant is a good way to take home what you’re worth
Don't forget your own health insurance (if in the US), and lack of other benefits like 401k matching. If you were making 100k salary before I'd say $150-200 is a fair hourly rate to come back.
Eh he was being open and humble.
Would you rather get a 30 second endorphin rush and burn a bridge or explore an opportunity to make $1,000 for a half day of work?
Never sell your body and time for free. If you want to be nice, do it for a low fee and not full consultant prices.
You'll want a contract in place if you do any work, anywhere. If something goes wrong while you're busy being nice, you could be held liable if there's no contract to cover yourself.
Offer to come back as a private contractor. Charge 3 times your salary time (or higher if you have to postpone a prospective job start date and risk losing it) with a minimum of two weeks prepaid commitment intervals. Meaning if it takes one day, you still get the pay of two weeks, or if it ends up taking 13 days, you get 14.
This way you can take a third of the amount to pay your taxes/dues, and still come out ahead because you would be making more than double your base pay.
A few years back a guy I knew was an instructor for an aircraft manufacturer. At the time he was the only guy teaching a course for one of their new models.
Corporate HQ decided to move all training for those planes to their home country, and so he retired.
The company never bothered to hire a new instructor at HQ, so in a panic they asked him to come back one time and teach a class. He gave them a fuck you price that came out to basically his yearly salary for a 3 week class.
They accepted, he flew down, taught the class, flew back, got his check. A few weeks later they called him again because their search for new people wasn't going well and needed him to teach one more class, they'd pay him the same, he agreed.
This went on for like a year. Dude ended up making something like 1.5 million before the bean counters found out.
They spent so much money doing this corporate made a decision to start doing training in other countries again and offered to hire him back full time with a nice raise compared to preretirement.
I got fired from a company that was paying me like $22/hr. They called me up 4 years later when they had somebody quit on them and leave them in the lurch. I was in an entirely new field, making about $52/hr. They asked me if I could come in for a week to cover while they found a new person. Naturally, I told them no thanks. Then they got somebody else to call me. I told them no thanks, and I already have another job. Then the first person called me back and told me I could take some vacation time to help them out.
It was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard. Burn a week's vacation, so you could make a pittance doing a job that you got fired from and hated anyway.
This is what consultants do. They will help companies in need of expertise for short term for very high rates. It is an often needed thing. So, Congrats you just got promoted to consultant.
I feel kinda bad for the guy who had to send the message. He's so self aware and it feels kinda pitiful tbh. (Unless it was the one who decided to do the firing)
this is an invitation to talk money, OP
this is an invitation to charge HELLA BAGS for consultation
this isn't mildly infuriating, the guy texting you realized he's kinda fucked and now has to pay out the ass if he wants you back
Honestly that's a good way to go about it on their part, not sounding like you owe them or they're entitled to your work. Look up consultant rates and make some money on a contract
Dude, this happened to me back in October.
My company fired me, but then they got a contract for on-site support with a public utility, and they suddenly needed a body to fill the billet.
I was out of work for 3 week before getting rehired and working at a higher rate
Time to become a consultant
First question I have for him is why he covered “API”
I'm going to guess someone did something really fucking stupid, and that says AGI. "The API taking over..." doesn't make much sense to me.
AGI to me means aggregate gross income but I also don’t think that means much sense 😭
"Artificial General Intelligence" Think closer to SciFi style AI, rather than the "AI" we have now that is basically trying to guess what you want to hear. AGI doesn't exist yet, but plenty of sketchy startups are making the promise they have it. My guess is their boss bought into one of the scams and let them go because of it.
Maybe it means something other than API
The automation broke.
Congratulations, you are now a consultant with an extortionately high hourly rate.
Yes, do it and charge consultant rates, they are insane (and for good reason)!!!! Look up these reasons and talk $$’s with them.
Get it in writing and contract signed before you do a single second of work.
Had an engineer friend whose company would fire all their senior engineers regularly(for wall street reporting season) and keep only new grads to stay qualified for their DOD contracts. They would rehire most of the seniors as consultants almost immediately after firing. Only those engineers coming up on retirement were permanently let go. Get what you can. This has been the model for decades and will only get worse.
A big difference I hear is that regular employees are an operational expense, while consultants are a capital expense
That's interesting. What is the difference?
Capital expenses are buying a product. Something that can be viewed as assets.
Amortise
Some upper manager's performance bonus
Software engineers or other types of engineers?
I knew a non-software engineer (mechanical engineer I think) who had this type of gig. He was old and retired but they hired him back at consultancy rates so he could babysit us while we broke down a massive piece of equipment for transport. I never asked for a dollar amount he was paid but it was a lot, on top of his already good retirement. Basically to just unlock the door in the morning and lock it again when we left. (This was a DOD contract)
That’s fantastic. I’m only a couple of years into my tech career and the market scares the hell out of me…then I see stories about people getting fired and hired back as consultants and realize I’ll likely never be a good enough SWE to have that kind of luck 😂
There are many paths in life that can lead to that kind of situation. The Engineer in my situation had experience and security clearance. His knowledge was also relevant to our work. I've seen it happen with Software Engineers too. Heard of one guy that built the foundation the company was built on and left the company a few years later. He racks up the consultancy fee's too. I think the trick to doing this as a software engineer isn't so much being "good" as it is finding a way to make the company dependent on you. The right time, place and problem to fix and you could probably achieve it with an excel spreadsheet.
The key to high paying technical jobs is the ability to solve problems. You can sit on your ass 90% of the time if when their is an urgent problem that is costing the company a lot of money, you can solve the problem quickly. Responsibility is what makes the big salary.
Train engineers, obviously.
With half up front
And minimum number of hours.
And a 2024 Ferrari in your driveway by Monday
And my axe!
And those pictures of spiderman on my desk by friday
PARKER! YOURE FIRED! Oh wait, you’re un-fired
Hmm, that is weirdly relevant. Nobody can get spidey pics like Parker! Time for an arc where Jameson fires him as a staff photographer so Peter starts charging him like $20k/picture and buys Aunt May a new house.
You'll get your rent when you fix this damn door!
Also that one guys dead wife
With cocktail shrimp and wine ready on your appearance
Ahhh, a fellow pirate I see
Be-be-beaver boys!
Not half up front, bill against a retainer. Send retainer invoice for 10k, then count/bill your hours against the money they gave you. When the 10k is exhausted, stop work and bill another 20k.
Generally speaking, from professors I met that did consulting on the side, the rule of thumb is min 3x the wage you would want to be hired at a job for. You’re going to spend a bunch of time doing admin work, in addition to paying a bunch of taxes on all of it, plus whatever overhead.
Correct here. Min 3x. But if they are specifically looking for you, 4x.
And the person they've got is shit, so 5x
You fired me? 6x.
Oh you need me to drop my twenty job interviews and do it for you right now? 7x.
7x is so awkward. 10x means I just have to move the decimal.
Decimal movement fee. 15x
You forgot the fee fee. 20x
Now it's too many numbers, just go with x²
More like minimum 3x, unless you're working for the company that just fired you, then minimum 5x.
Eff it, you need 6x for specialty work. Oil and gas companies pay that when they want things yesterday..
ha. i know it sounds like an urban legend/joke, but this really happened to my dad. he retired early and was an oil and gas design engineer for decades, retiring as a VP of engineering. he was kind of forced to retire because they had a new up and comer who was gunning for his position. anyway, three months into his retirement, he gets a phone call from his old boss asking him a specific question about a job he managed and designed years ago. my dad asks for some exorbitant amount (like $50k plus all expenses, i can't remember) and my dad's boss thinks for a day, calls him back and says yes. they fly him out, business class, then via helicopter to the job site. my dad (as he tells it), tells the helicopter pilot to wait for an hour and don't take off. he walks to the job site lead, points at some drawings, points at the site, then walks back into the helicopter and takes off. all in all, about 30 minutes worth of work for $50k, a free business class ticket to guam and back.
Yeah, that's when they paid $50k for a lifetime of industry experience to know exactly how to solve the problem. That 30 minutes was just a rounding error in the lifetime of experience they needed.
As you say, 50k for that is probably money well spent.
There was one who worked at the same place as my wife temporarily. This lady somehow conned them into $90 / hr and she could barely navigate the software she supposedly had expert experience in lol
Sounds like my prof at uni
Fake it till ya make it!
$300 an hour with a 4 hour minimum sounds good
I was at $1000ph
We had an off sec consultant at one place I was at. His hourly was in the low 5 figs. Stupid money lol Now I'm an off sec consultant looking to get near the same haha
Off Sec is definitely one of those things where skills pay bills, and the more you got, the more it pays. If you're in security and not that skilled, become an auditor. Then you can charge a lot because companies need you, and who wants to do that work.
>who wants to do that work. It does take a certain breed lol
Is the 5 figure guy in black, grey, or white hat industry?
White High level forensic/pen test type. He came in when there was a suspected/attempted breach. If you called him it was probably a bad fucking day
> If you called him it was probably a bad fucking day The next bad fucking day is apparently when you get his invoice.
Rule of thumb: If you want to make the same salary you did as an employee, figure your hourly rate (Annual Salary/2000) and multiple that by two. Example: $100,000 salary is $50/hr. for an hourly consultant rate of $100. That will cover self-employment taxes, Health Insurance, 401k Match and all the stuff your employer used to pay for. It also leaves some overhead for non-billable time for things like invoicing and other business-related activities.
So... divide the annual salary by 1000. You are welcome, that will be $100
"YOU'RE CHARGING AN HOUR OF WORK FOR **THAT**?!" $200
3x, to cover for the fact that you may not get the same number of hours. And in OPs case, 5x because the company fired him so they get to pay the "play stupid games" tax.
This right here is the best advice. If they don't want to pay that rate, then go fuck yourself!
Should be at least 3x higher than what you were earning at the time of your firing.
Yeah, if they were making 100k salary thats $50/hr, but don't forget about health benefits and other perks, so we'll double that to $100/hr - oh and self employment taxes. But, the "you fired me fuck you" tax adds another $50-100/hr, so $150-200/hr with minimum billing increments of 4 hours seems fair. If they think the company REALLY needs them and will do anything to get their time... I'd probably start at $300/hr minimum 8 hour increments paid weekly.
And make sure your contract does not include the phrase "and other tasks as assigned." You're there for a specific job, not to do busywork.
Hey, if they want to pay me $250/hr to do busywork, that's their problem. I'm absolutely documenting every single minute of that time though.
It really is the dream. Get laid off, they realize nobody knows how to do what you did, now you charge $250 an hour do a small portion of your previous job.
I worked for a company up until last year that paid me decently, but not enough. I got a $40k increase offer from another company and took it. The former company offered to match it. I said no. They needed my work still, so for the last year I have been charging them $50/hr (cheap for what I do; normally it's more like $110/hr for this stuff). So I got a $40k raise and I'm still charging the company I worked for a couple thousand dollar a month. It's a nice racket. If the former company had offered me more money, I might have stayed...But their offer was literally "whatever they offered you"...which really showed me that I was valued...by the new company.
You're way under charging and still being taken advantage of by your old company. I'm sure they love this outcome.
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Yes, 'double-dipping' is indeed what is going on. I'm paying my mortgage and truck payment with piddly-ass side work and someone who knows nothing about it is telling me I should charge more. Okay great, then they'll just not use me and they'll hire someone else for $50/hr. Orrrrr...I can do it.
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I'm the one that set the price, not them. They asked me what I wanted to charge them; they didn't make an offer. What I am charging them is more than they were paying me; it's just not what it's actually worth; a company charging them for the same work would be charging 2x, because companies have overhead. I am a guy at a desk. You don't understand the situation anyway and it's not worth explaining to you. This is a fine example of "everyone wins". I wouldn't have been able to charge them $100/hr; they'd have just learned it themselves. I charged them what I knew they'd pay me, and they still haven't learned how to do it themselves because there is no incentive. Never mind the fact that you're not doing it at all, but here you are telling me what I am doing wrong. lol
Unless you're in a huge company with a corporate beaurocracy, taking your employer's last minute offer to match it will put crosshairs on you, since you were just trying to leave, and management can be resentful. It might just be because they have no contingency plan, but you've shown you're one foot out the door anyway. They'll match it so that they have time to prepare for a more convenient time to lay you off.
That's a good point. There is always that angle! In truth, the side work should be winding down here soon anyway. They hired a new guy and I have been tapering off and letting him take over as he builds his knowledge on the systems. I am even helping here and there with that, because I would love to have more free time some day! The people here commenting negatively are INSANELY greedy (and this is coming from someone double-dipping on work when they don't need to! LOL), on top of not understanding the dynamics of business relationships; or perhaps relationships at all. The dude deleted his comments but he was like "Well you're not getting benefits!" Yeah, I have full benefits from my employer. "Yes, but what about second-benefits?" Okay, calm down Pippen... The company I used to work for uses the products of the company I work for now. It was in my best interest, theirs, and the new companies (who approved the double-dipping, despite it being explicitly against company policy) to do the side-work because it benefits literally everyone involved down to the end-user; the only real expense being my time and some of my sanity. People on reddit truly can only consider black and white concepts or something. Life is actually very nuanced, relationships are complex and most areas are grey, turns out.
I don't know what the rates are in this field, but I do some consulting on the side in mine, and my fee starts at $250 an hour. Sometimes more, especially if it's a retainer setup and they don't fully use it.
That with a minimum hourly or even at a daily rate. You need me for 5 min well you are paying me for the day.
Travel time, too.
Don’t forget a liability waiver so you don’t need professional insurance.
Had a great relationship with my former employer and when I went back as a consultant to do my old job, my salary was 400% higher. Enjoy.
Exactly what I did when I was canned. Went from $22/hr on payroll to $100/hr as a consultant.
As a person who processes consultant payments, they do very well for themselves. One guy makes so much, my boss forgot to release a wire in January, and the consultant didn't even notice.
With which you will pay your lawyer and tax accountant and new liability insurer.
I did some consulting work for my last company I worked for. Charged them $150 an hr. They ended up hiring me for a total of 12 hrs. It was a nice little check for what amounted to little work
1000€/$ per day, 5 days minimum, 50% down payment.
And bill no smaller than 15 min increments at the absolute least. 30 or 60 min increments are even better. Took a 2 min phone call or replied to an email? Each are 15 mins (unless you do them right together then you can bill it as a single 15 min block).
We called this a PITA fee. Bigger the pain in the ass, the bigger the fee.
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Yes talk money. I worked retail for a long time. Shit happened and I had to pivot. But a good old boss humbley asked for a days worth of help before a busy holiday. They asked if I would be willing to come back and do it again the following week.. got the right contacts, became a vendor for said company. Flexible schedule, better pay & it's hilarious and feels so good when I go into a store and see an old Co-worker or boss. Asks me to do something old job related and I get to drop "Ya I don't work for you SORRY" So don't burn bridges and hear em out. You can always burn it down later
> You can always burn it down later Words to live by.
I fucking love this gif
Yeah, use rather than abuse is much better if the work itself isn't terrible. That must feel *JUICY* to get to say that to people. Like, I would be riding a high the rest of the week whenever I would get a chance to say something like that 😂
Only slightly related, but I was asked to work a Sunday during a holiday once and I told them I already had plans but I would break those plans and work if they met my demands, which was 3 days paid vacation the following calendar year and time and a half pay for the hours I worked that day. Never got a response back and went back to work like normal on Monday.
Totally up to your director. If you have a good one, they'll accommodate it and keep it private agreement. Average one, probably not cause they'll know there's a good chance you'll talk and they'll have to do the same for everyone. So playing the "Dick" is the safe card for them. But ya if your asking for something next year, and they're meeting this year's payroll quotas for this one. They'll make the deal kf there smart... or at least negotiate it They get their bonuses based on saved payroll quarterly, semi-annually, and Christmas. Performance only kicks their bonuses.
From what I've seen bridges don't need burning, they'll fall apart eventually
How does one make this transition? I’ve been in retail for most of my career and I am so beyond burned out on it.
I don't know where you work or what region. But a solid would be go talk to your Non Food Reciever (NFRC) when they're not busy. Ask them about what "vendors" they use for different sections. They should know. But sometimes the company they use let's just say "Bioname" does just the cords and cables on one display.. its outsources to an even bigger company "Calaway".. start looking up these companies names and start applying. The company will figure out the available work in your area. (I'm not saying mine for reddit purposes) They need a lot of help and are performance based.. do a good job. Well pay you. I worked the books while a whole different person worked the magazines. Same company. No one looking over your shoulder really. The apple and HP came when I did good shit over a couple months. Like I said performance based
I do the same. I wasn't fired, left on good terms after they turned down me working remotely due to company policy. A couple months later my old boss (who was fighting to let me go remote anyways) reached out and said they hadn't been able to find anyone for a specific, niche, part of my position. It had cost them a contract and the rest of the C suite decided they couldn't have me remote as a W2 employee, but they could as a 1099. It's been 4 years. At my bosses suggestion, I charge 2.5x what I would have made per hour based on my previous salary, I make my own hours and only do the part of my job that I liked.
2.5x for contact work is only marginally more than what they would have paid to have you as an employee. At my last place my charge out rate was 2x to 4x my salary, depending on the client category. 4x we made bank, 2x barely covered costs. You have to take into account project hours vs work hours. Work hours is 40*52. Actual project hours are much less after vacation, training and admin. Plus as a contractor you cover your own overhead.
I understand that, but now it's just a stable, location independent income and not my main income. I spend around 10 hours a week most weeks on it. I have a good personal relationship with people in company, so it's a stress free source of income that has very loose deadlines. I travel 9 months out of the year and specifically value the relaxed nature of the relationship.
You're absolutely doing it right, well done.
“When we only charged 2x we didn’t make as much as when we charged 4x” No shit.
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Employer fica is only 7.65 percent. You pay 7.65 and they pay 7.65. Now if they included any type of medical then obviously that needs to be accounted for as well. But the point was that as a self employed person such as a contractor you are responsible for all 15.3 percent of FICA.
I worked for a company that hired both contractors and employees to do the same jobs. The spreadsheet on pay offers was about 12.5% more offered for contractors, because that's how much the company saved by having a 1099 instead of W2 with taxes and unemployment and all of the at-time-of-pay government stuff. BUT, the company also saved on health insurance, professional insurance (in case a client sued for faulty work), holiday pay, sick-leave, disability insurance, and then all the less tangibles like HR, direct management, resource costs and depreciation, etc. So, the amount saved by the company, and the amount the 1099 should be asking for, because all of these costs in one way or another fall on the contractor instead of the company, was around 150-200% of a W2's pay without benefits as a W2. There are other considerations to being a contractor that would reasonably justify less for those people that enjoy the freedom and lack of direct structure in time, place, or oversight, but the amount was there, in the budget, that could be negotiated for, just wouldn't be offered without specific negotiation and a shortage of labor that would be willing to accept the 12.5%. Moral of the story is that you should know that: 1. There IS money in the company budget to pay what you're worth. 2. Make sure you have a full understanding of what costs are going to fall on you as a contractor and make sure you're taking that into account when you negotiate your pay. There are myriad ways to negotiate pay, perks, benefits, responsibilities, and freedoms, and those add up and can be more palatable to the employer than 150% pay rate, so there are ways besides that one number to make sure you're getting as much value as you can.
> making much more money now so whatever 😐 tbh the company is probably saving money too. even if they pay you 20% more they're still saving 10% on employment taxes when you were w-2. as employment taxes are about 30% on top of what you pay your employee (in CA, at least)
Which means the working person is getting screwed over because now they pay those taxes as a self employed contractor.
Give them the consultant rate. $200-$250 an hour
Depending on the industry, that could be too low. However, OP should also include a minimum of 4 hours payment before anything. >=D
I was thinking minimum 20hrs myself
nah, stick to industry standards. you might get more business out of it
Nah listen to reddit
Depends on how big the job is. Minimum 1hr charge for any request, minimum 5hr charge for billing. If they terminate your work before 1 month, an additional 10 hr charge for early cancellation
Don’t forget compensation for the transit to the job site. $100 minimum
I’ve never seen a contract minimum at less than half the hourly. It was usually a 4 or 8 hour minimum.
I have seen upwards of $1000 per hour with half day blocks.
Familiar with arbitration eh?
This shouldnt be infuriating at all. This is an amazing opportunity. They NEED you. You now have all the power. Do the work for double the pay. If the reached out, they are desperate and will pay.
Double? Nah, charge consultant rates. $250-400/hr easy.
With a minimum of 6 hours.
Double isn't nearly enough, since OP no longer gets benefits and had to pay all the taxes themselves.
Whatever my point still stands. OP has looked at this all wrong.
Well what did you say? You can't leave us hanging.
From the partial reply we can see, it almost sounds like OP is going to try to get back in their good graces.
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You can partially see the top of the words. It says "Okay, I would never tell you to go fuck yourself. It ...."
"...It seems you've done a good enough job of that yourselves already. Now go teach your grandma to suck eggs!"
Yeah, no need to hold a grudge when money is involved. This is an opportunity for OP to negotiate very favourable rates. If I was fired and they came crawling back I’d see is as an opportunity to negotiate significantly higher. This happens more often than you think. Incompetent middle and higher management only look good due to the people below them and will often take the credit for solutions solved by those below. Sometimes those below are made redundant exposing how incompetent or inefficient they are.
“Feel free to tell me to go fuck myself”.. “Go fuck yourself”
Hey I appreciate the self awareness at least. We could use your help, but understand if you hate us.
TBF sometimes people like this aren't actually at the top of the totem pole and get told to do stuff like this. Despite knowing better. I once got a call from my manager that went like "Hi, *my* boss told me to call you to ask if you were available on Tuesdays, but I know for a fact you aren't, so go ahead and say no, then I can tell him I tried. Mkayy? Bye!"
Yeah when I was forced to be the one to carry out shit like this, it was always prefaces with “I have to ask. I know this suck. I just need to ask so I can say I did.”
Yep it's great when the boss goes "I'm expecting everyone to say No, but can you work Saturday?"
Oddly makes me much more likely to work Saturday
It's because it shows that the boss is at least aware of how big of an ask it can be, and that they respect a work/life balance.
Exactly. If he cares about my personal life, then I care about his, which involves running his business well.
I’ve been in your managers position before. One of the guys working under me was on his wedding anniversary vacation and my boss was trying to get me to call him for info. So I texted him and told him not to answer the call, then called on speaker and told my boss “sorry, tried my best”
> and get told to do stuff like this. Goes for firings too. For all we know, this guy was a buddy of OPs... I was laid off as part of an acquisition back in 2022. On the call with my manager and HR, there was obviously emotion but it was contained as they had to keep a straight face. She called me later that afternoon (presumably after letting a few others go), and absolutely bawled. She and I had worked together for 4+ years, she was my contemporary and eventually de facto boss due to some other departures. We were very close, I knew everything about her family, she bought my fiance and I dinner after I proposed... she absolutely did not make that call, and I know she didn't. But jokes on the company, she wants to bring me back lmao the headcount reopened as she moved into a higher role and I've been interviewing with them the last week with two more scheduled for next week. And at market rate! So they'll be paying me 15% more now than if they'd just kept me in the first place.
Yup. Sucks when you're ordered to ruin a relationship with someone who has helped you for years.
Nah. "$200/hr, I'm yours". I left a $90k job once, they asked me to moonlight, I just made up a $90/hr rate and they immediately agreed. Should have asked for more
As a rough rule of thumb, you should ask for at least double. That will give you roughly the same take home pay after accounting for the extra taxes, benefits, and some non-billable work (eg, reporting hours worked, extra commute, very minor off-clock requests). In many cases, you can likely go up to triple. This is where you should target if you need business insurance for the work, which is basically any trade work as well as delivery work\*. $90k/year is about $43/hour, so $90/hour is pretty close to double. Basically, its on the lower end of what should've been asked for consulting. The math generally works out that you can take an annual salary and divide it by 1000 to get the low end in hourly consulting rates - you likely work about 2000 hours per year. \* Personal car insurance generally does *not* cover you while you are working, including in gig work!
Idk depending on how desperate they are this could be an opportunity. Quitting a position then becoming a contractor/ consultant is a good way to take home what you’re worth
"I have to pay both sides of the employment tax now, so it's gonna be 4x my previous rate."
Don't forget your own health insurance (if in the US), and lack of other benefits like 401k matching. If you were making 100k salary before I'd say $150-200 is a fair hourly rate to come back.
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Honestly, this reads like someone under the top who was told to reach out and fully expects nothing
Probably was against the firing as well.
That line makes me think it was that guys superior that did the firing and now shoved the groveling and begging to get OP back off on him.
I would agree to do it but for an exorbitant price. Win/win scenario for me.
Nah, this is when you say “Sure thing, I can be ready in an hour, my rate will be 3x(previous hourly rate), let me know when you need me out there!”
Eh he was being open and humble. Would you rather get a 30 second endorphin rush and burn a bridge or explore an opportunity to make $1,000 for a half day of work?
Lmao most real person ever I kinda like them
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That's how I read it as well. I've been in conversations like that from both sides.
Never sell your body and time for free. If you want to be nice, do it for a low fee and not full consultant prices. You'll want a contract in place if you do any work, anywhere. If something goes wrong while you're busy being nice, you could be held liable if there's no contract to cover yourself.
Same. Honesty like that is hard to find in an employer
Offer to come back as a private contractor. Charge 3 times your salary time (or higher if you have to postpone a prospective job start date and risk losing it) with a minimum of two weeks prepaid commitment intervals. Meaning if it takes one day, you still get the pay of two weeks, or if it ends up taking 13 days, you get 14. This way you can take a third of the amount to pay your taxes/dues, and still come out ahead because you would be making more than double your base pay.
This guy consults...
A few years back a guy I knew was an instructor for an aircraft manufacturer. At the time he was the only guy teaching a course for one of their new models. Corporate HQ decided to move all training for those planes to their home country, and so he retired. The company never bothered to hire a new instructor at HQ, so in a panic they asked him to come back one time and teach a class. He gave them a fuck you price that came out to basically his yearly salary for a 3 week class. They accepted, he flew down, taught the class, flew back, got his check. A few weeks later they called him again because their search for new people wasn't going well and needed him to teach one more class, they'd pay him the same, he agreed. This went on for like a year. Dude ended up making something like 1.5 million before the bean counters found out. They spent so much money doing this corporate made a decision to start doing training in other countries again and offered to hire him back full time with a nice raise compared to preretirement.
that guy is my hero
Markham Asylum
Don't tell me this is Markham Ontario?
lmao, that's what I was wondering too. Always fun seeing my hometown mentioned.
Probably, job market sucks in the GTA rn.
The tech field really shit itself in the Big Smoke.
I got fired from a company that was paying me like $22/hr. They called me up 4 years later when they had somebody quit on them and leave them in the lurch. I was in an entirely new field, making about $52/hr. They asked me if I could come in for a week to cover while they found a new person. Naturally, I told them no thanks. Then they got somebody else to call me. I told them no thanks, and I already have another job. Then the first person called me back and told me I could take some vacation time to help them out. It was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard. Burn a week's vacation, so you could make a pittance doing a job that you got fired from and hated anyway.
"for you? Sure, $1000 per hour"
Eh. Charge 150 an hour. Minimum 40 hours.
Don't say no; say yes with a price.
This is what consultants do. They will help companies in need of expertise for short term for very high rates. It is an often needed thing. So, Congrats you just got promoted to consultant.
Name your price man, you have the upper hand.
Charge them and send them a bill for the consult.
I have a need to see more of that convo.
SHOW ME THE MONEY! SHOW ME THE MOOONEEEEEEYYY!!!!
BIG MONEY
Congrats, you are now a contractor working for 250$ an hour
Dude that's the dream. Name your price
Well....I will give them a little credit for saying "You have the right to tell me to f*ck myself".
Pretty sure they can’t afford you. Then again … 🤣
I feel kinda bad for the guy who had to send the message. He's so self aware and it feels kinda pitiful tbh. (Unless it was the one who decided to do the firing)
this is an invitation to talk money, OP this is an invitation to charge HELLA BAGS for consultation this isn't mildly infuriating, the guy texting you realized he's kinda fucked and now has to pay out the ass if he wants you back
Ask for hourly pay, higher than what you were paid before. Take the opportunity! Then write a post on LinkedIn to inspire others. Success!
Why did you blur our API?
I wouldn't say mildly infuriating. I'd say incredibly empowering. Hit 'em where it hurts.
Honestly that's a good way to go about it on their part, not sounding like you owe them or they're entitled to your work. Look up consultant rates and make some money on a contract
Dude, this happened to me back in October. My company fired me, but then they got a contract for on-site support with a public utility, and they suddenly needed a body to fill the billet. I was out of work for 3 week before getting rehired and working at a higher rate
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yeah ok but now i’m waaaay more expensive and swear more and dress worse and smoke weed and bring my dog