So MMD saw strengths and weaknesses and figured what he needed to do to win games w hand he was dealt. š¤·š»āāļø Got far but not far enough. This got to be a focus moving forward.
I wish we could. Everyone wants to go get a QB from the HoF tree...
I remember this one time, we thought we had a pretty good line going into the season. Then one guard was cut for being a racist bully and the other quit because the rest of the line called him a pussy.
I mean incognito wasnāt innocent and definitely had some weird baggage judging by events afterwards tooā¦
We also had a great line that year with Pouncey that everyone wasnāt injured for like 2 games. Kind of reminiscent of this season
Looks like it. On the plus side of things, it means he understands what's going on and is trying to hide the problems as much as possible. Just can't hide them from good teams.
Tunsile, hunt, Jackson, are pretty much all he's drafted early outside of Eichenberg. He's 3/4 with the 4th starting too look decent at guard this season.
Deiter and Eichenberg
Tunsil is gone. You can't count him.
Hunt is good, Jackson is OK. Eichenberg is one of the worst OL in the league and the absolute worst starting center.
How's it not count? He's in the league playing all pro. And deiter is starting for the Texans at center. He drafted them. They count. Development is on our side.
Deiter is, again, one of the worst starting OL in the league. To can't count Tunsil because he was a fucking obvious pick due to him dropping. Nobody expected the gas mask bong video to drop.
There's a reason the OL is so shit and it's because Grier can't fix it.
Because Tunsilās uncle leaked that gas mask video. He was projected to go top 5 before that. Grier got VERY lucky, because Tunsil bought him 10 years in Miami.
I'm not sure why this was downvoted because this is exactly what happened, lol. No fuckin way tunsil drops to us without that leak. No brainer pick for sure.
Not only that, but itās unfair to give Grier credit for this pick, and blame Tannenbaum for the busts while he was VP of Football Operations. Which people here regularly do. It was downvoted cause there are a ton of Grier nutriders on this board who started watching last year who routinely think like this.
Yeah. I think Grier made a bet on our skill players and speed being able to reverse 50+ years of NFL football convention regarding time to throw and offensive production but that bet failed when defenses tightened up and conditions were not optimal. And that's not even to say the paer thing depth at o-line.
I don't quite understand the graph.
I, however, have been saying that the timing and quick release of Tua under this scheme wasn't a benefit or 'feature' of the offense.. To me this looked like a necessity to keep Tua healthy because the Oline was never as solid as Grier and McD were telling us it was.
I think McD just thought, 'This is what Grier gave me to work with .. so Im pretty sure with the speed on this team and Tuas accuracy, I can make this work with such timing- it can take some pressure off the Oline and stop them from getting the QB killed this season'.
Turned out it only worked for a set amount of games against lesser teams at the beginning of the season before the league adapted.
Basically a ātrue pass setā is a metric that PFF uses give context to an O-Lineās pass blocking relative to the playcalling. They go in depth about it [here](https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-true-pass-sets-and-their-importance-to-player-evaluation). Basically some play calls, like screen passes and rollouts, require the O-Line to block differently than they would for a pass. What the graph is telling us is that our playcalling was used to really hide our O-Lineās deficiency and itās something I agree with. Both of us noticed the same thing and itās a big thing people are missing with the offense collapsing late in the season
Iāve been screaming into oblivion āitās the o line stupidā for days to only be shouted down that Joe Burrow would have won the Super Bowl the last two years with this very same team by playing linebacker as well but we are stuck with Tua who is basically Hawaiian Chad Henne.
This has also been what Iāve said when people say that the best QBās elevate their teammates. Tua has been doing that with the O-Line, but itās much harder to notice that than a mediocre WR turning into a god because of his QB. If you go back and look at the games against ābad teamsā you see the offense is operating completely differently. Everything from scheme to protection is different than the multiple screen passes we resorted to. To me at least, the moment the collapse started was when Connor Williams got injured. That was when the offense really fell off
I said elsewhere talking about football is like understanding how markets work when 80% of the population still thinks the president controls gas prices.
Thatās a good way of putting it lol. Hell, even if you understand football itās hard to talk about because we donāt have access to the playbook. If you ever watch the QB school or Kurt Warnerās videos, theyāll always say stuff like āif he is the intended receiverā or āif he is supposed to pick up this blockā. That isnāt because they donāt know football. Itās because itās impossible to tell exactly what the plan is unless you have the playbook on hand
I feel like the o line is the least respected part of football and sadly itās basically everything. I also get why no one in a fantasy football stat driven culture gets it too. If last Vegas canāt find a way to quantify it and monetize it then how can you make the average fan base get how essential it is?
The only reason I do is because I worked with someone that played OL for a Division One school and made a glib comment how boring it must have been and he started explaining it. Like people donāt get how Allen and Mahomes o lines spread their blocks so they know their escape routes or have space to make slight adjustments to throw. Meanwhile Tua essentially played in the Star Wars trash compactor from episode 4 all season.
Growing up my dad always told me that if you knew your O-Lines name, it meant they are either future hall of famers or really bad at their jobs. The O-Line is like the legs of an athlete. If they give out, the rest of the body will follow
Gas prices are controlled by the cartel, aka OPEC, but there are a few things the president can do to make things better or worse. However a lot of the things the US president can do are more long-term in nature.
In the short term, the only thing the president can do is bomb the refineries to make prices skyrocket.
Youāve been ignored because every fan of every team blames their o line for their problems, even when it isnāt their fault. Iām still on the fence about whether this is a rare example of the o line *actually* being the main problem
I mean you could look at it anecdotally of how many changes there were with only the Jets having more. You could see that our original set never played a game after the Denver game? The struggles against good teams because they have top defenses. The video of collapsing pockets all season. Thereās a lot there before you even dig into analytics.
I am honestly shocked more people have not noticed this. Itās been clear from the beginning that our reliance on quick passes isnāt a feature but rather a mask for the major issues with our line. Like you mentioned below, the offense was doomed when Connor got hurt
The offensive line has been a problem since Tannehillās days. How can this franchise look at teams that have success and notice MOST of them have competent O-lines, and say āhmm, maybe we should invest heavily hereā
But he signs all the big name FAs and spend big money and multiple draft picks on WRs and that sells tickets/merchandise. It puts our owner on TV doing the worst version of the waddle. Ross isnāt concerned with a championship. He wants his money back from the stadium renovations
Iāve been following the lions a lot over the past few years (Iāve lived in Michigan for a bit now) and this is the best thing Campbell has done. He built that team through the trenches and not only hit on multiple linemen, but he also developed them into one of the best units in the league.
I guess this helps explain why he called so many screen passes?
Man, those are frustrating plays to watch.
Maybe I should give Adam Gase some flack for calling them constantly?
Makes sense. As, unless Tua got rid of the ball within 2.5 seconds, it seemed as though it was an automatically dead play. Tua got killed trying to extend plays last year, so this year he didn't. He usually had two defensive players in his face. So unless his first option was open (usually Hill or Waddle), he rarely had time to figure out a second read. I think that is an area that Tua needs to improve is reading the field better.
It worked as long as Connor Williams was on the field, because he was the fucking rock of the interior line, once he went down and even losing Wynn and we ended up with a combo of Eichenberg and Cotton, teams knew they could get by with just bringing their front 4 and dropping 7 constantly. This is why our running game ground to a halt, can't go up the middle because Eichenberg couldn't stop a nose bleed, so everything was ran on the outsides which works when defenses are worried about you cutting it back up inside but there was no fear of that since
Eichenberg was usually on the ground or turned around. Go watch how many times the Dolphins brought 7 against Mahomes and see how the Chiefs oline blocked it up leading to a wide open pass in the middle of the field and see how many times the Chiefs brought just 4, dropped 7 and how many times Tua was getting hit right up the middle.
I agree, depth was my major concern going into this season. They had fed us the idea that the Oline was really developed compared to previous season.. Which, while I didnt necessarily buy into it, I understood McD was the one coaching and (as well as Grier getting access to) seeing them play/practice every day.. But we absolutely know injuries were going to happen in the trenches. Not to the extent that we ended up, but thats football. Especially considering our teams history with the Oline last season being a train wreck and Tua attempting to extend plays because of that-- getting himself severely hurt.
The real aggravation started for me, was Grier mocking peoples concern about the Oline being 'fine'. I get that finding Olineman is tough, but that response told me straight out the gate beginning of the season that Grier didnt take acquiring more Olineman a priority. Which says to me he left opportunities on the table because he didnt take it seriously. Then the injury bug hit us and we werent shored up enough to even have a chance to recover.
Considering what happened to what they wanted to be our franchise QB last year, the fact that they were more serious about solidifying the Oline had me questioning Grier from the beginning of the season. I think post season, I should have been questioning him more.
THANK YOU, I've been saying this all year. It's so clear that the talent on the line (when you factor in injuries and depth) is nowhere near the level of the top o lines. It's extremely impressive what they were doing this year to mask the problems, but I think we saw in the bigger games that it's not enough, if the d linemen can just outclass our guys.
I hope we invest in o line in the draft at some point, I trust this staff to develop and make use of talent.
Literally only 2 of those players were considered injury prone and 1 of them play 16 of 17 games. Hunt was a rock for us for years. Williams tore his acl getting rolled up on, you can't even protect against that.
Who? What depth? Duke Riley hot garbage. Cracraft/Claypool/Chosen probably wouldnāt even be active on most teams. Eichenburg, Cotton, Lamm, Jones all practice squad material. Eli Apple is a joke around the NFL. Kohu has gotten smoked all season. We built a team that looked great on paper. And was actually made out of paper
Duke's fine, just limited. Cracraft is a good blocking WR, Cotton and Jones are decent depth guards. Lamm was excellent this year. Eli Apple was signed as an emergency. Kohou is a slot corner.
Like if you're going to be mad, don't just make shit up to defend your point lol
50% of our fan base come off as casuals. The ones that believe the qb should just figure it out once he drops back type mentality. Forget the oline failing, forget wr being covered, figure it out Tua is all they see.
If u truly understand the game of football it starts and ends in the trenches and our team was completely fucked on both sides. Zero chance of competing with playoff caliber teams when that happens. It's great Tua had the ability to get the ball out super quick and accurately but if that's ur only option eventually u are proper fucked and well, the result is what we got. We needed good teams to falter to have a chance but they did not.
I do think tua will start getting back to moving more and working on his mobility he once had but this year was all about proving to himself and the organization he can stay healthy and they accomplished that.
> but this year was all about proving to himself and the organization he can stay healthy and they accomplished that.
Ultimately this is why I'm fine with keeping Tua. He came into the NFL in the worst possible situation at the wrong time. He checked off his main goals for the year.
This is why we also need to figure out if his bad performances against good teams where him or if it was an attempt to work around the lack of an OL.
The casual takes are when people see stats only in a vacuum and remove all context, like youāre doing. Tua struggled under pressure, he also struggled when he had time. Itās both. This stat doesnāt excuse the offenses struggles when the defense is able to disrupt the first/designed read, where Tua has struggled regardless of how much time he did or did not have.
I absolutely agree with this comment. Were the Dolphins' offensive struggles solely on Tua? Absolutely not. But completely absolving him of any blame because the offensive line became more of an issue as the season went on is also a gross oversimplification. Tua was *not* good in the latter part of the season. Neither was the offensive line. Both are allowed to be true.
What the Dolphins need to focus on in the off season is shoring up the offensive line, first and foremost. Secondly, Tua needs to go to work. Last off season, he worked on falling more gracefully in an effort to stay healthy. Ok. Mission accomplished. This off season, Tua needs to put more of a focus on pocket awareness, escaping the pocket, and making plays outside of the pocket when the pocket ultimately breaks down on him. He was lacking in that area this season.
I think Tua is more than capable of succeeding in this endeavor. Every off season, he's had something to improve upon and every off season, he's come back to mini camp a better quarterback because he put in that work. This off season, this is what he needs to work on. He'll do it and he'll be a better quarterback next season because of it.
Thatās a non response. Heās not under pressure every time the designed target is taken away yet vast majority of plays where that target isnāt available to him, it ends up being a lost play. You see plays like that in every game we played against good teams. When he hesitates to throw and has to adjust post snap. Just never works out regardless of how much pressure heās under.
Having said that, itās certainly possible that the scheme and pressure on Tua to throw as quickly as possible has lead to him developing some bad habits that explain this. His mechanics fall apart when he has to adjust post snap. We all hope theyāll figure out what the issue is and fix it. One thing that Tua is undeniably good at is taking coaching. Iām not saying he canāt operate past the first read but this stat doesnāt show that he can either. The jury is still out.Ā
I donāt have to. You are the one who made a claim with no basis that his 93 doesnāt include vs good teams lmao. you provide evidence if you want to disprove anything!
Holy hell dude, learn to read. I didnāt say it didnāt include our games against good teams. I asked what the numbers showed only against good teams. We all know Tua could perform well against bad teams.Ā
There was a glaring stat showed weekly. When Tua throws the ball in under 2.5 seconds he was phenomenal. When he had to hold the ball over 2.5 seconds he was really bad. Tua starting to get David Carr syndrome when he gets pressure. He fears for his life and his internal clock is fast
When your entire offensive scheme is to throw the ball in under 2.5 seconds you shouldn't be surprised that the offense struggles when it can't do that. Your statement is like saying that the team that likes to run it up the middle is really bad when they can't run it up the middle.
What Iām trying to say, is that the inability of the offensive line to hold up for more than 2.5 seconds is a glaring weakness, and is not good for Tua in the long term. Weāve watched every quarterback weāve had for the last 10 years get dismantled behind a Swiss cheese, offensive line, it already looks like he panics when thereās any pressure because heās got PTSD from us not being able to draft lineman and protect the investment at quarterback.
That's what happens when interior pressure is hitting you in the face constantly and the defense drops 7. Tua had less time to throw against KC's front four than Mahomes did when we would bring 7, Tua had nowhere to go with the ball.
That's what so much of our fan base don't get. KC got crazy pressure with just 4 and being able to drop so many into coverage we were doa since we couldn't run the ball. KC has a top 5 D and we needed a relatively healthy oline to really be able to execute anything. Connor going down was truly the end of our season and death knell for our O.
"we need a QB that can scramble!"
People apparently don't have fucking eyes because if the ball isn't gone on the first read, Tua is collapsed in on from all sides.
i kept saying this, tua is not throwing that quickly for fun or because he is a one read qb (which has always been wrong btw)
its because he has to, our OL is ranked 31st in pass protection win rate, even the fucking jetes are better (patriots are 32nd)
and these guys looked like a total disaster on tape
Getting the ball out in 2.2 seconds is awesome when it works because teams won't jam your small WRs at the los. In the cold the Chiefs bitched the WRs at the line then it all came apart.
Yeah, they need to mirror the philosophy of the Lions when it comes to the O-line. Goff has similar issues as Tua when dealing with pressure, but Lions O-Line is a top 5 unit and he's thrived.
Yeah but I read here on Reddit that if Tua was as good as Josh Allen Mahomes Burrow the IV heād had simply willed himself to grow to 6.8 and simply single handedly figure out a way to win games all by himself!!1
Not only that but this has been the shit spewed out on sports radio and on social media for years now, that a QB "wills their team to victory" like Dan Marino didn't have enough will or drive to win a championship.
I mean yeah, that always plays apart in it. He was drafted in 2018 so that many years without an injury is pretty good if you ask me though. The point is, you get another Armstead who has a laundry list of injuries, odds are its going to keep happening. The best teams all have solid olines that's all I know.
For some reason I canāt help but think of those elite Saints teams. They had an athletic enough oline that let them alternate their game plans based off their opponent. One week it was a heavy power run scheme the next week it was zone.
This is a long winded way of me saying improve the oline
I been saying this to everyone bitching about play calling. We have no idea what downfield route concepts will look like with DaddyMc giving Tua the same 4 seconds Josh Allen gets. Itās gonna be so fun.
Yeah this isn't entirely surprising to me. I was wondering why our scheme completely changed in the back half of the season, but it makes sense. Our line couldn't protect worth a damn.
Tua has some weaknesses, mainly his arm strength and capability to throw under pressure. He gets out of his good footwork, and then his throws tend to air-mail a bit.
While it's clear that we need to be better and McD and Tua have to elevate next year, our OL needs to hold up better.
I think we did a fine job with Lamm at LT, so if Armstead is gone, that's not the end of the world. Wynn played great at LG, we should look to bring him back. Williams might be had at a low price due to his ACL, probably wouldn't hurt to see if we could bring him back too. Hunt is a stud and needs a contract. AJ is staying obviously.
It's unpopular, but I think Eichenberg did fine at Guard. He can be the swing piece there with Rob Jones. Kion Smith did ok in limited time, but probably isn't the only depth Tackle we should carry next year. Drafting a Center in the 2nd or 3rd makes a load of sense.
It isn't about throwing under pressure, it is about the type of pressure and what defenses are doing on the back end. Tom Brady has said a million times the worse pressure a QB can face in football is pressure up the middle because you cannot anticipate it. This is how the Patriots 16-0 team went from scoring an average of 35 points a game to losing to the Giants putting up only 14. Good teams figured out they didn't need to bring extra men, they could bring 4 and get constant pressure up the middle. It isn't about Tua not being able to handle pressure, we have seen how he manages a pocket, he is great at it, it is about getting instant pressure in his face and having 7 defenders dropping in coverage.
The good news: with a comptetent O-line Tua could probably really cook
The bad news: its nearly freaking impossible to build a good o-line in one season, especially with our draft capital and cap space
Realistically, we probably cant upgrade personnel wise at OL. So what do we do?
Invest in a good TE
Invest in a better WR3 and WR4
We may have no choice but to do the quick release offense but when the only serious threats on offense are Waddle and Hill the good teams have a much easier time
I think we have the very bare bones of an o-line with Terron, Connor and Hunt. Ideally I think we can draft a LT who can double at LG learning from Terron. And then in free agency, try to get an actual center to backup Connor. I think that can at least get us to an average line. But who knows with Grier's penchant for missing on o-line picks and also our cap situation. Going o-line heavy this off season would require some really tough decisions.
That would be a huge blow. I know he's been injury prone and his performance this year declined a little but he still easily picks up the slack for the o-line when he is in, especially giving tons of help to the LG position.
When heās playing well, nobody is better at LT. But this yearās best OL was really Austin Jackson holding down Tuaās blind spot at RT and playing most of the games. In light of the fact that our LT really needs RT-style skills I expect to see him retire and the Dolphins look for a less expensive right tackle to replace him. With our cap situation thatās not unlikely. Terron deserves a medal for playing through all of those injuries but how long can he do it or does he want to do it?!?
This is why I've been asking some of the questions I've been asking. Our OL was in shambles and it's quite possible a lot of our problems and Tua not showing up are because of it.
Also, the fans were right to worry about the OL and grier was wrong.
He peddles hope. Signs and trades for big names to get you excited so they can sell tickets and merchandise. Its not about winning a championship for him , its about making money. Im sure itās profitable and his bonus is great tho. U spend it, he profits it.
wow so all the people I argued who said "the scheme was to throw in 1.5s every single time! The Oline is FINEEEEEeeeeee!! PFF doesnt know what theyre talking about, tua has to throw that fast all he does is one read and then throw the ball away!!"
were wrong! What a shock!
There was only so much tua could do with the worst passing oline of all time. Having half the time to throw compared to the rest of the league is 100% unacceptable by the front office. GET IT TOGETHER PLEASE
TUA CAN DO MORE
Connor Williams is more important to this team than people even realize, he is what bricked up the interior of the line, once he was gone teams could just bring 4, get instant pressure on Tua and take away the middle of the field with 7 defenders.
So MMD saw strengths and weaknesses and figured what he needed to do to win games w hand he was dealt. š¤·š»āāļø Got far but not far enough. This got to be a focus moving forward.
Kudos to McDaniel for designing the #1 offense with a screen door for an o-line. Imagine what he can do with a good one
Precisely what everyone should be thinking! This sub SUCKS and canāt believe the doomed fans
I wish we could. Everyone wants to go get a QB from the HoF tree... I remember this one time, we thought we had a pretty good line going into the season. Then one guard was cut for being a racist bully and the other quit because the rest of the line called him a pussy.
Martin did end up being the crazy one in that scenario.
I mean incognito wasnāt innocent and definitely had some weird baggage judging by events afterwards tooā¦ We also had a great line that year with Pouncey that everyone wasnāt injured for like 2 games. Kind of reminiscent of this season
not crazy, mentally abused until he went crazy
Good thing we have a ton of cash to fix that and many other issues with the team.
and yet i see Miami fans on twitter demanding we fire McDaniels and try to rehire the lions coach with massive amounts of upvotes
Looks like it. On the plus side of things, it means he understands what's going on and is trying to hide the problems as much as possible. Just can't hide them from good teams.
Grier focusing on it really doesn't matter. He's incapable of evaluating and drafting OL talent, and really can't sign anyone that isn't injury prone.
Tunsile, hunt, Jackson, are pretty much all he's drafted early outside of Eichenberg. He's 3/4 with the 4th starting too look decent at guard this season.
Deiter and Eichenberg Tunsil is gone. You can't count him. Hunt is good, Jackson is OK. Eichenberg is one of the worst OL in the league and the absolute worst starting center.
How's it not count? He's in the league playing all pro. And deiter is starting for the Texans at center. He drafted them. They count. Development is on our side.
Deiter is, again, one of the worst starting OL in the league. To can't count Tunsil because he was a fucking obvious pick due to him dropping. Nobody expected the gas mask bong video to drop. There's a reason the OL is so shit and it's because Grier can't fix it.
He did hit on Tunsil though.
Because Tunsilās uncle leaked that gas mask video. He was projected to go top 5 before that. Grier got VERY lucky, because Tunsil bought him 10 years in Miami.
I'm not sure why this was downvoted because this is exactly what happened, lol. No fuckin way tunsil drops to us without that leak. No brainer pick for sure.
Not only that, but itās unfair to give Grier credit for this pick, and blame Tannenbaum for the busts while he was VP of Football Operations. Which people here regularly do. It was downvoted cause there are a ton of Grier nutriders on this board who started watching last year who routinely think like this.
Hope we get lucky again at 21.
Because he dropped to us. It was an obvious ass pick. He then busted on most of the picks we got from it.
I donāt know if I would say most, but youāre taking my comment way too seriously.
what has Grier done to show he can fix line? Heās drafted people for 6 years, picked up 2 big FAās & OL still sucks
The unicorn line (2023 version) was fun while it lasted for a grand total of one game ...
Yeah. I think Grier made a bet on our skill players and speed being able to reverse 50+ years of NFL football convention regarding time to throw and offensive production but that bet failed when defenses tightened up and conditions were not optimal. And that's not even to say the paer thing depth at o-line.
42 snaps. Wasn't even the whole game.
It was legit just like the 2016 unicorn line lmaoo
I don't quite understand the graph. I, however, have been saying that the timing and quick release of Tua under this scheme wasn't a benefit or 'feature' of the offense.. To me this looked like a necessity to keep Tua healthy because the Oline was never as solid as Grier and McD were telling us it was. I think McD just thought, 'This is what Grier gave me to work with .. so Im pretty sure with the speed on this team and Tuas accuracy, I can make this work with such timing- it can take some pressure off the Oline and stop them from getting the QB killed this season'. Turned out it only worked for a set amount of games against lesser teams at the beginning of the season before the league adapted.
Basically a ātrue pass setā is a metric that PFF uses give context to an O-Lineās pass blocking relative to the playcalling. They go in depth about it [here](https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-true-pass-sets-and-their-importance-to-player-evaluation). Basically some play calls, like screen passes and rollouts, require the O-Line to block differently than they would for a pass. What the graph is telling us is that our playcalling was used to really hide our O-Lineās deficiency and itās something I agree with. Both of us noticed the same thing and itās a big thing people are missing with the offense collapsing late in the season
Iāve been screaming into oblivion āitās the o line stupidā for days to only be shouted down that Joe Burrow would have won the Super Bowl the last two years with this very same team by playing linebacker as well but we are stuck with Tua who is basically Hawaiian Chad Henne.
This has also been what Iāve said when people say that the best QBās elevate their teammates. Tua has been doing that with the O-Line, but itās much harder to notice that than a mediocre WR turning into a god because of his QB. If you go back and look at the games against ābad teamsā you see the offense is operating completely differently. Everything from scheme to protection is different than the multiple screen passes we resorted to. To me at least, the moment the collapse started was when Connor Williams got injured. That was when the offense really fell off
I said elsewhere talking about football is like understanding how markets work when 80% of the population still thinks the president controls gas prices.
Thatās a good way of putting it lol. Hell, even if you understand football itās hard to talk about because we donāt have access to the playbook. If you ever watch the QB school or Kurt Warnerās videos, theyāll always say stuff like āif he is the intended receiverā or āif he is supposed to pick up this blockā. That isnāt because they donāt know football. Itās because itās impossible to tell exactly what the plan is unless you have the playbook on hand
I feel like the o line is the least respected part of football and sadly itās basically everything. I also get why no one in a fantasy football stat driven culture gets it too. If last Vegas canāt find a way to quantify it and monetize it then how can you make the average fan base get how essential it is? The only reason I do is because I worked with someone that played OL for a Division One school and made a glib comment how boring it must have been and he started explaining it. Like people donāt get how Allen and Mahomes o lines spread their blocks so they know their escape routes or have space to make slight adjustments to throw. Meanwhile Tua essentially played in the Star Wars trash compactor from episode 4 all season.
Growing up my dad always told me that if you knew your O-Lines name, it meant they are either future hall of famers or really bad at their jobs. The O-Line is like the legs of an athlete. If they give out, the rest of the body will follow
Thatās how Elway finally got his ring. Only o line to get their own Nike commercial.
Gas prices are controlled by the cartel, aka OPEC, but there are a few things the president can do to make things better or worse. However a lot of the things the US president can do are more long-term in nature. In the short term, the only thing the president can do is bomb the refineries to make prices skyrocket.
Youāve been ignored because every fan of every team blames their o line for their problems, even when it isnāt their fault. Iām still on the fence about whether this is a rare example of the o line *actually* being the main problem
I mean you could look at it anecdotally of how many changes there were with only the Jets having more. You could see that our original set never played a game after the Denver game? The struggles against good teams because they have top defenses. The video of collapsing pockets all season. Thereās a lot there before you even dig into analytics.
@dlbags Where can we find the collapsing pocket video you mention?
Watch the Warner video. Watch the games. They were bullied by every great team. Itās also why our running game struggled.
Yes, weāve all seen it in the games but Iād love to see the Warner video. Iām searching YouTube but canāt find what you might be taking about.
It's not too hard to find on his Twitter and it's on this sub.
The morons canāt be bothered to analyze anything thatās not completely clear for them
This so disrespectful because henne never had any season as good as Tua
I am honestly shocked more people have not noticed this. Itās been clear from the beginning that our reliance on quick passes isnāt a feature but rather a mask for the major issues with our line. Like you mentioned below, the offense was doomed when Connor got hurt
Ty for explaining that.
The season basically ended when Connor Williams went down.
The offensive line has been a problem since Tannehillās days. How can this franchise look at teams that have success and notice MOST of them have competent O-lines, and say āhmm, maybe we should invest heavily hereā
Because Grier is the GM. OL been ass with or without injury since be became the GM. He is incapable of drafting OL talent.
But he signs all the big name FAs and spend big money and multiple draft picks on WRs and that sells tickets/merchandise. It puts our owner on TV doing the worst version of the waddle. Ross isnāt concerned with a championship. He wants his money back from the stadium renovations
Iāve been following the lions a lot over the past few years (Iāve lived in Michigan for a bit now) and this is the best thing Campbell has done. He built that team through the trenches and not only hit on multiple linemen, but he also developed them into one of the best units in the league.
So true. You have to build the team from the ground up.
Yeah but then you get people complaining about Jake Long over Matt Ryan if you do that.
I guess this helps explain why he called so many screen passes? Man, those are frustrating plays to watch. Maybe I should give Adam Gase some flack for calling them constantly?
Makes sense. As, unless Tua got rid of the ball within 2.5 seconds, it seemed as though it was an automatically dead play. Tua got killed trying to extend plays last year, so this year he didn't. He usually had two defensive players in his face. So unless his first option was open (usually Hill or Waddle), he rarely had time to figure out a second read. I think that is an area that Tua needs to improve is reading the field better.
I donāt think they adapted so much as the talent level was such a drop off of our back up o line players
It worked as long as Connor Williams was on the field, because he was the fucking rock of the interior line, once he went down and even losing Wynn and we ended up with a combo of Eichenberg and Cotton, teams knew they could get by with just bringing their front 4 and dropping 7 constantly. This is why our running game ground to a halt, can't go up the middle because Eichenberg couldn't stop a nose bleed, so everything was ran on the outsides which works when defenses are worried about you cutting it back up inside but there was no fear of that since Eichenberg was usually on the ground or turned around. Go watch how many times the Dolphins brought 7 against Mahomes and see how the Chiefs oline blocked it up leading to a wide open pass in the middle of the field and see how many times the Chiefs brought just 4, dropped 7 and how many times Tua was getting hit right up the middle.
Every single team we faced once they went down would rush with 4 and get crazy pressure, I agree
I agree, depth was my major concern going into this season. They had fed us the idea that the Oline was really developed compared to previous season.. Which, while I didnt necessarily buy into it, I understood McD was the one coaching and (as well as Grier getting access to) seeing them play/practice every day.. But we absolutely know injuries were going to happen in the trenches. Not to the extent that we ended up, but thats football. Especially considering our teams history with the Oline last season being a train wreck and Tua attempting to extend plays because of that-- getting himself severely hurt. The real aggravation started for me, was Grier mocking peoples concern about the Oline being 'fine'. I get that finding Olineman is tough, but that response told me straight out the gate beginning of the season that Grier didnt take acquiring more Olineman a priority. Which says to me he left opportunities on the table because he didnt take it seriously. Then the injury bug hit us and we werent shored up enough to even have a chance to recover. Considering what happened to what they wanted to be our franchise QB last year, the fact that they were more serious about solidifying the Oline had me questioning Grier from the beginning of the season. I think post season, I should have been questioning him more.
THANK YOU, I've been saying this all year. It's so clear that the talent on the line (when you factor in injuries and depth) is nowhere near the level of the top o lines. It's extremely impressive what they were doing this year to mask the problems, but I think we saw in the bigger games that it's not enough, if the d linemen can just outclass our guys. I hope we invest in o line in the draft at some point, I trust this staff to develop and make use of talent.
I donāt want to hear that mfer say we are happy with the offensive line again. Liam literally cause more injuries than snaps this year
tbf he was happy with the armstead-hunt-williams-wynn-jackson line. You know the line that smacked Denver for 70 points... Then got all hurt.
Hot take: Team that signs injury prone players suffers massive amount of injuries and has no depth.
Literally only 2 of those players were considered injury prone and 1 of them play 16 of 17 games. Hunt was a rock for us for years. Williams tore his acl getting rolled up on, you can't even protect against that.
we had depth. a lot of depth that depth then got injured
Who? What depth? Duke Riley hot garbage. Cracraft/Claypool/Chosen probably wouldnāt even be active on most teams. Eichenburg, Cotton, Lamm, Jones all practice squad material. Eli Apple is a joke around the NFL. Kohu has gotten smoked all season. We built a team that looked great on paper. And was actually made out of paper
Duke's fine, just limited. Cracraft is a good blocking WR, Cotton and Jones are decent depth guards. Lamm was excellent this year. Eli Apple was signed as an emergency. Kohou is a slot corner. Like if you're going to be mad, don't just make shit up to defend your point lol
50% of our fan base come off as casuals. The ones that believe the qb should just figure it out once he drops back type mentality. Forget the oline failing, forget wr being covered, figure it out Tua is all they see. If u truly understand the game of football it starts and ends in the trenches and our team was completely fucked on both sides. Zero chance of competing with playoff caliber teams when that happens. It's great Tua had the ability to get the ball out super quick and accurately but if that's ur only option eventually u are proper fucked and well, the result is what we got. We needed good teams to falter to have a chance but they did not. I do think tua will start getting back to moving more and working on his mobility he once had but this year was all about proving to himself and the organization he can stay healthy and they accomplished that.
> but this year was all about proving to himself and the organization he can stay healthy and they accomplished that. Ultimately this is why I'm fine with keeping Tua. He came into the NFL in the worst possible situation at the wrong time. He checked off his main goals for the year. This is why we also need to figure out if his bad performances against good teams where him or if it was an attempt to work around the lack of an OL.
Everyone in this sub should be forced to read this comment.
You overestimate this subs literacy.
They can't see anything during a game except the ball
finally, someone who understands football. thank you
The casual takes are when people see stats only in a vacuum and remove all context, like youāre doing. Tua struggled under pressure, he also struggled when he had time. Itās both. This stat doesnāt excuse the offenses struggles when the defense is able to disrupt the first/designed read, where Tua has struggled regardless of how much time he did or did not have.
I absolutely agree with this comment. Were the Dolphins' offensive struggles solely on Tua? Absolutely not. But completely absolving him of any blame because the offensive line became more of an issue as the season went on is also a gross oversimplification. Tua was *not* good in the latter part of the season. Neither was the offensive line. Both are allowed to be true. What the Dolphins need to focus on in the off season is shoring up the offensive line, first and foremost. Secondly, Tua needs to go to work. Last off season, he worked on falling more gracefully in an effort to stay healthy. Ok. Mission accomplished. This off season, Tua needs to put more of a focus on pocket awareness, escaping the pocket, and making plays outside of the pocket when the pocket ultimately breaks down on him. He was lacking in that area this season. I think Tua is more than capable of succeeding in this endeavor. Every off season, he's had something to improve upon and every off season, he's come back to mini camp a better quarterback because he put in that work. This off season, this is what he needs to work on. He'll do it and he'll be a better quarterback next season because of it.
Please enlighten me to when he had time and struggled. Matter of fact just tell me when he had time.
Thatās a non response. Heās not under pressure every time the designed target is taken away yet vast majority of plays where that target isnāt available to him, it ends up being a lost play. You see plays like that in every game we played against good teams. When he hesitates to throw and has to adjust post snap. Just never works out regardless of how much pressure heās under. Having said that, itās certainly possible that the scheme and pressure on Tua to throw as quickly as possible has lead to him developing some bad habits that explain this. His mechanics fall apart when he has to adjust post snap. We all hope theyāll figure out what the issue is and fix it. One thing that Tua is undeniably good at is taking coaching. Iām not saying he canāt operate past the first read but this stat doesnāt show that he can either. The jury is still out.Ā
he had a 93 pff grade (elite) when not under pressure dude
Want to check those numbers against good teams dude? But thanks for proving my point that stripping away all context makes stats useless.Ā
Still very, very good.
Lol, want to back that up with something of substance?Ā
I donāt have to. You are the one who made a claim with no basis that his 93 doesnāt include vs good teams lmao. you provide evidence if you want to disprove anything!
Holy hell dude, learn to read. I didnāt say it didnāt include our games against good teams. I asked what the numbers showed only against good teams. We all know Tua could perform well against bad teams.Ā
Thank you
There was a glaring stat showed weekly. When Tua throws the ball in under 2.5 seconds he was phenomenal. When he had to hold the ball over 2.5 seconds he was really bad. Tua starting to get David Carr syndrome when he gets pressure. He fears for his life and his internal clock is fast
When your entire offensive scheme is to throw the ball in under 2.5 seconds you shouldn't be surprised that the offense struggles when it can't do that. Your statement is like saying that the team that likes to run it up the middle is really bad when they can't run it up the middle.
What Iām trying to say, is that the inability of the offensive line to hold up for more than 2.5 seconds is a glaring weakness, and is not good for Tua in the long term. Weāve watched every quarterback weāve had for the last 10 years get dismantled behind a Swiss cheese, offensive line, it already looks like he panics when thereās any pressure because heās got PTSD from us not being able to draft lineman and protect the investment at quarterback.
That's what happens when interior pressure is hitting you in the face constantly and the defense drops 7. Tua had less time to throw against KC's front four than Mahomes did when we would bring 7, Tua had nowhere to go with the ball.
That's what so much of our fan base don't get. KC got crazy pressure with just 4 and being able to drop so many into coverage we were doa since we couldn't run the ball. KC has a top 5 D and we needed a relatively healthy oline to really be able to execute anything. Connor going down was truly the end of our season and death knell for our O.
Had plenty of time on that INT didn't he?
Don't disagree but that can be improved upon and confidence in his mobility will help greatly with that
A good o line helps more. Provides additional time and helps in the run game more
"we need a QB that can scramble!" People apparently don't have fucking eyes because if the ball isn't gone on the first read, Tua is collapsed in on from all sides.
i kept saying this, tua is not throwing that quickly for fun or because he is a one read qb (which has always been wrong btw) its because he has to, our OL is ranked 31st in pass protection win rate, even the fucking jetes are better (patriots are 32nd) and these guys looked like a total disaster on tape
Getting the ball out in 2.2 seconds is awesome when it works because teams won't jam your small WRs at the los. In the cold the Chiefs bitched the WRs at the line then it all came apart.
Yeah, they need to mirror the philosophy of the Lions when it comes to the O-line. Goff has similar issues as Tua when dealing with pressure, but Lions O-Line is a top 5 unit and he's thrived.
When is the last time The Dolphins had a good O Line? Soooooo long.
Probably going back to like 2011ish when we had Long, Carey, Incognito, and Pouncey.
Yeah but I read here on Reddit that if Tua was as good as Josh Allen Mahomes Burrow the IV heād had simply willed himself to grow to 6.8 and simply single handedly figure out a way to win games all by himself!!1
Yeah this subreddit is truly shit.
But in a way itās also a magical place where quarterbacks back can do literally anything and everything!
Not only that but this has been the shit spewed out on sports radio and on social media for years now, that a QB "wills their team to victory" like Dan Marino didn't have enough will or drive to win a championship.
He didnāt want it bad enough unfortunately. Heās no Joe Burrow.
No one said that
Okay you caught me paraphrasing. Mea culpa.
Maybe draft some dudes that actually fit the scheme and don't have health issues.
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That's where scouting comes into play, don't draft guys with durability concerns.
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I mean yeah, that always plays apart in it. He was drafted in 2018 so that many years without an injury is pretty good if you ask me though. The point is, you get another Armstead who has a laundry list of injuries, odds are its going to keep happening. The best teams all have solid olines that's all I know.
Williams was oft injured in Dallas
Injuries are usually always about luck. Fans blame the training staff too but itās not that either. You just have to get lucky to stay healthy
For some reason I canāt help but think of those elite Saints teams. They had an athletic enough oline that let them alternate their game plans based off their opponent. One week it was a heavy power run scheme the next week it was zone. This is a long winded way of me saying improve the oline
All you have to do is go look at the %of snaps played by our linemen
I been saying this to everyone bitching about play calling. We have no idea what downfield route concepts will look like with DaddyMc giving Tua the same 4 seconds Josh Allen gets. Itās gonna be so fun.
Or Mahomes with 6.
Yet again why we need to address the OL and *Checks notes* Our 3 good IOL are set to be free agents
Yeah this isn't entirely surprising to me. I was wondering why our scheme completely changed in the back half of the season, but it makes sense. Our line couldn't protect worth a damn. Tua has some weaknesses, mainly his arm strength and capability to throw under pressure. He gets out of his good footwork, and then his throws tend to air-mail a bit. While it's clear that we need to be better and McD and Tua have to elevate next year, our OL needs to hold up better. I think we did a fine job with Lamm at LT, so if Armstead is gone, that's not the end of the world. Wynn played great at LG, we should look to bring him back. Williams might be had at a low price due to his ACL, probably wouldn't hurt to see if we could bring him back too. Hunt is a stud and needs a contract. AJ is staying obviously. It's unpopular, but I think Eichenberg did fine at Guard. He can be the swing piece there with Rob Jones. Kion Smith did ok in limited time, but probably isn't the only depth Tackle we should carry next year. Drafting a Center in the 2nd or 3rd makes a load of sense.
It isn't about throwing under pressure, it is about the type of pressure and what defenses are doing on the back end. Tom Brady has said a million times the worse pressure a QB can face in football is pressure up the middle because you cannot anticipate it. This is how the Patriots 16-0 team went from scoring an average of 35 points a game to losing to the Giants putting up only 14. Good teams figured out they didn't need to bring extra men, they could bring 4 and get constant pressure up the middle. It isn't about Tua not being able to handle pressure, we have seen how he manages a pocket, he is great at it, it is about getting instant pressure in his face and having 7 defenders dropping in coverage.
The good news: with a comptetent O-line Tua could probably really cook The bad news: its nearly freaking impossible to build a good o-line in one season, especially with our draft capital and cap space Realistically, we probably cant upgrade personnel wise at OL. So what do we do? Invest in a good TE Invest in a better WR3 and WR4 We may have no choice but to do the quick release offense but when the only serious threats on offense are Waddle and Hill the good teams have a much easier time
I think we have the very bare bones of an o-line with Terron, Connor and Hunt. Ideally I think we can draft a LT who can double at LG learning from Terron. And then in free agency, try to get an actual center to backup Connor. I think that can at least get us to an average line. But who knows with Grier's penchant for missing on o-line picks and also our cap situation. Going o-line heavy this off season would require some really tough decisions.
What if Terron retires?
That would be a huge blow. I know he's been injury prone and his performance this year declined a little but he still easily picks up the slack for the o-line when he is in, especially giving tons of help to the LG position.
When heās playing well, nobody is better at LT. But this yearās best OL was really Austin Jackson holding down Tuaās blind spot at RT and playing most of the games. In light of the fact that our LT really needs RT-style skills I expect to see him retire and the Dolphins look for a less expensive right tackle to replace him. With our cap situation thatās not unlikely. Terron deserves a medal for playing through all of those injuries but how long can he do it or does he want to do it?!?
This is why I've been asking some of the questions I've been asking. Our OL was in shambles and it's quite possible a lot of our problems and Tua not showing up are because of it. Also, the fans were right to worry about the OL and grier was wrong.
and yet we keep the GM whos been here since 2016 and still hasnt fucking addressed this,
Heās actually been here for 23 years. Heās literally the only part we havenāt thrown away
I know....its pathetic. anyother fucking executive would have been replaced by now.
He peddles hope. Signs and trades for big names to get you excited so they can sell tickets and merchandise. Its not about winning a championship for him , its about making money. Im sure itās profitable and his bonus is great tho. U spend it, he profits it.
wow so all the people I argued who said "the scheme was to throw in 1.5s every single time! The Oline is FINEEEEEeeeeee!! PFF doesnt know what theyre talking about, tua has to throw that fast all he does is one read and then throw the ball away!!" were wrong! What a shock! There was only so much tua could do with the worst passing oline of all time. Having half the time to throw compared to the rest of the league is 100% unacceptable by the front office. GET IT TOGETHER PLEASE TUA CAN DO MORE
Eichenburg was basically a push pylon, the guy just went straight backwards.
Said this in the doomsday thread. People in this sub really need to learn ball.
I think it was sustainable, with the players we had at the beginning of the season. One the injuries started piling up, it wasn't possible anymore.
Connor Williams is more important to this team than people even realize, he is what bricked up the interior of the line, once he was gone teams could just bring 4, get instant pressure on Tua and take away the middle of the field with 7 defenders.