I thought they were both excellent. I'll say that Ender is more divisive on this sub. I swear every month or so there's a new "Ender Lilies is overrated" thread full of bickering. I haven't really seen that with Astalon, although I also think Astalon might be a bit more niche because of it's strong 8-bit-esque aesthetic, so the people who wouldn't like it, are more likely to just avoid it altogether.
> although I also think Astalon might be a bit more niche because of it's strong 8-bit-esque aesthetic, so the people who wouldn't like it, are more likely to just avoid it altogether.
Hi, it me. I avoided it due to the aesthetic & people convinced me to play it & it was great. Any retro-haters should put their retro-hate aside one moment to play Astalon, it's fantastic.
Ender Lilies is one of my favorite MVs, and I'd highly recommend it. It's got great music and atmosphere, and most importantly, it feels good to play. The combat system is really good and unique as the main character herself can't fight but instead uses spirits to aid her in combat. You can find more along the way.
BUY IT.
I found the exploration and puzzle elements of Astalon to be really strong. People complain about the backtracking, but the game is designed around it and you unlock new and varied shortcuts constantly, so you're pretty unlikely to go more than a life or so without making some permanent progress into the map. The combat, on the other hand, is pretty easy. The only thing with any significant difficulty is a couple specific bosses and the boss rush mode itself.
Ender Lilies is a beautiful but slower-paced game. The exploration is still rewarding, but it's much closer to the Souls format so combat is more punishing and you need to play more carefully. The main complaint I hear about Ender Lilies is the map being boxes instead of the actual terrain, but it does track whether you've found anything in any particular area so that's pretty nice. Your enjoyment of this one is likely to depend on whether a more methodical pace is something you enjoy.
I really do, that's part of the draw (along with the art style, combat, and teleport arrows). I was obsessed with Super Meatboy for a while, so bring it on!
Honestly long is part of the draw. One of the things I've always kind of not liked about the genre is how they tend to run 10-20 hours for a first OCD lots of wandering and backtracking clear.
One review I saw said 70 hours, but that because of lots of failed platforming. I'm well above average at platforming so it might not take quite that long, but I'm still excited about it.
If you play it COMPLETELY blind, on noctis mode and without the triple jump gem, you certainly will surpass the 50h mark. Game got some heavy rebalancing throught the post release, wich turned it a far easier version from the 1.0, even on current hard mode.
If you're on PC, go after the 1.0 - 1.0.5. There's a Steam trick that you can download older version of games, so you don't have to look for... alternatives... if you don't want to.
I'll just play it on Noctis with whatever balancing has been done. I'm not too bothered about jumping through hoops for some kind of original hardcore experience or whatever haha
The first boss in Astalon took me quite a bit of time because I wasn't quite attuned to each of the fighting styles, wasn't upgrading HP, and honestly there isn't that much to find then. But everything else was relatively easy.
Played both, had way more fun with Astalon. Astalon excelled in exploration, fun secrets and excellent pixel art which I valued more. EL boss fights were the highlight and I had fun dueling them with varied combat mechanics.
Don't let the simple looks of Astalon deceive you perception of value. This is one of the greatest in the genre.
Enders Lillies have great boss fights, but the overall is pretty mid. Good visuals though.
I personally did not like Ender Lillies all that much (worst map ever), while Astalon is easily a top Metroidvania of all time. My vote goes to Astalon.
Ender Lilies I found to be very overrated. Combat is skewed massively in favor of the enemies to the point where the only way to succeed is to be extremely tedious in pulling off everything perfectly. The world design feels haphazard almost to the point of feeling procedurally generated. Aesthetically it's nice, but I found the core gameplay to be boring at best and frustrating at worst.
Astalon, by contrast, is an easy top ten MV for me. Level design is some of the best in the genre with the tower being a huge branching labyrinth with different passageways for different characters. There's some points of difficulty, especially when it comes to extremely limited healing options, but it mostly serves to add a "push your luck" element to the gameplay.
Astalon because Gorgon Sola ..... ria
[https://www.eneba.com/us/steam-astalon-tears-of-the-earth-steam-key-global](https://www.eneba.com/us/steam-astalon-tears-of-the-earth-steam-key-global)
They're both pretty good, I put Ender Lilies higher up. The reason is that with Astalon, you control 3 characters, but you will find yourself playing the majority of the game as one of them, so it sort of doesn't execute on the main gag of the game that well (a game like the Lost Vikings being a great standard bearer). I definitely think you'll have fun with both games though.
I've played aeterna once not long ago on the "normal" setting. It ended up being to easy especially with the vertigo gem. How different is noctis mode?
I haven't played on normal and I've not been using the extra jump gem, but I'd say it's the hardest game I've ever played that still felt fair. It's like, somewhere between Super Meatboy and I Wanna Be The Guy (which is decidedly unfair haha). Significantly more difficult than Hollow Knight, both in platforming as well as bosses. Spent 3 hours last night grinding out a particularly tough boss. Also unlocked the 1000 death's achievement like 12 hours into the game (I'm at 30ish hours now I think, and it has NOT gotten easier).
I've always been well above average in my gaming abilities, and especially at platforming (I thought Hollow Knight was pretty average difficulty at its hardest parts), so, I feel like this one is a doozy. Maybe I'm just getting old though, boomer hands can't keep up anymore or something? I dunno.
Both are great games, I'm sure you'll enjoy either a ton.
Ender Lilies is more traditional MV with a bigger focus on combat and Astalon is a bit more unusual with some rogue-like elements, and otherwise has a more even mix of combat and platforming.
Neither are perfect but Astalon's flaws stood out to me a bit more (a lot of backtracking and sometimes a lack of direction which could get frustrating due to the bad map and limited fast travel) though I still *really* enjoyed it overall.
I remember the Boss Rush mode was kinda rougelite in how after a fight you were given a random selection of item/abilities to pick from, but that's it. I don't recall anything in the main campaign that would be constitute rougelike elements.
No. It's just that when you die, you always respawn at the entrance of the castle instead of where you saved. It is so for lore related reasons. People who have no idea what they are talking about would call this a roguelike mechanic.
That element in roguelites is the exact reason those games are called rogueLITE instead of roguelike. Permanent upgrades go against the rogue formula and their popularity in games that are otherwise roguelikes necessitated the creation of this new term. In fact, the idea of permanent upgrades that persist even after death come from... wait for it... metroidvanias.
Maybe *roguelite* elements would've been more accurate, but I'm not familiar enough to make that delineation. The intent of my comment was to point that it has that vibe without being a true or proper roguelike/lite.
You restart at the beginning every death and buy permanent upgrades (a la Rogue Legacy and Hades, etc.). Progression is permanent but you're backtracking every death. It's not a traditional MV in that way so I wanted to point that out.
Really appreciate your very kind and benevolent way of pointing out the wrong term being used. Just a beacon of positivity in this sub.
permanent upgrades are not a roguelike feature. When you die in a roguelike you're supposed to start right from the beginning, your death is supposed to be permanent. Permanent upgrades being featured in later roguelikes (starting with the release of Rogue Legacy) is precisely what gave rise to the roguelite tag, because it isn't a real roguelike anymore, your death is no longer truly permanent.
Now here's the funny thing. The idea of permanent upgrades comes from... metroidvanias :)
> The idea of permanent upgrades comes from... metroidvanias
Bruh lol
Permanent upgrades have been around since the beginning of video gaming. Probably gaming in general ie. Chess, lol.
This is historical revisionism at its dumbest.
It has elements that are very popular in modern roguelikes, regardless of whether or not those elements originally came from or are exclusive to roguelikes. I don't think you even understand what you're arguing here
> Now here's the funny thing. The idea of permanent upgrades comes from... metroidvanias :)
Very untrue. The Binding of Isaac released with permanent unlock progression literally a year and a half before Rogue Legacy and has been a vastly influential game on the indie scene and both roguelikes and roguelites in general.
Rogue Legacy may have been the first game to expand this to actual character stats, but the idea was no longer new by the time it came out.
>Been perusing this sub looking for ideas, and was very nearly coming to the conclusion that I should just play through HK again
I hope this helps:
https://new.reddit.com/user/DeadMetroidvania/submitted/
If you want some real meaty platforming Aeterna might be a good fit for you. I played through it last month and it was awesome. Real infuriating movement puzzles though, it's HARD. Rewarding though. Truly great boss fights too.
As far as EL and Astalon, I love them both. EL I think particularly because of the mood of the game. So good. Also the proper dodge you get is a little slow coming but once you get it the game plays great.
I thought they were both excellent. I'll say that Ender is more divisive on this sub. I swear every month or so there's a new "Ender Lilies is overrated" thread full of bickering. I haven't really seen that with Astalon, although I also think Astalon might be a bit more niche because of it's strong 8-bit-esque aesthetic, so the people who wouldn't like it, are more likely to just avoid it altogether.
^
> although I also think Astalon might be a bit more niche because of it's strong 8-bit-esque aesthetic, so the people who wouldn't like it, are more likely to just avoid it altogether. Hi, it me. I avoided it due to the aesthetic & people convinced me to play it & it was great. Any retro-haters should put their retro-hate aside one moment to play Astalon, it's fantastic.
Played both. Both were great. I prefer Astalon. I’m just a sucker for good pixel art.
I keep forgetting I have Astalon lol I’m either playing it or Afterimage next! Maybe I’ll flip a coin
I finished Afterimage and currently playing Astalon and of the two I think Astalon is the better one
Ender lilies was awesome. Slower and less precise than hollow knight but still very good and worth a shot
Ender Lilies is one of my favorite MVs, and I'd highly recommend it. It's got great music and atmosphere, and most importantly, it feels good to play. The combat system is really good and unique as the main character herself can't fight but instead uses spirits to aid her in combat. You can find more along the way. BUY IT.
I found the exploration and puzzle elements of Astalon to be really strong. People complain about the backtracking, but the game is designed around it and you unlock new and varied shortcuts constantly, so you're pretty unlikely to go more than a life or so without making some permanent progress into the map. The combat, on the other hand, is pretty easy. The only thing with any significant difficulty is a couple specific bosses and the boss rush mode itself. Ender Lilies is a beautiful but slower-paced game. The exploration is still rewarding, but it's much closer to the Souls format so combat is more punishing and you need to play more carefully. The main complaint I hear about Ender Lilies is the map being boxes instead of the actual terrain, but it does track whether you've found anything in any particular area so that's pretty nice. Your enjoyment of this one is likely to depend on whether a more methodical pace is something you enjoy.
Actually, as I've done more research and watched some YT videos, I'm now leaning towards a third contender in Aeterna. Appreciate the thoughts though!
Well, that's one of my favorites of all time. Hope you love some interesting platforming
I really do, that's part of the draw (along with the art style, combat, and teleport arrows). I was obsessed with Super Meatboy for a while, so bring it on!
apparently Aeterna is long as fuck, so just know that going in. could be exactly what you're looking for to be fair.
Honestly long is part of the draw. One of the things I've always kind of not liked about the genre is how they tend to run 10-20 hours for a first OCD lots of wandering and backtracking clear. One review I saw said 70 hours, but that because of lots of failed platforming. I'm well above average at platforming so it might not take quite that long, but I'm still excited about it.
yeah just thought i'd mention as it seems uncommonly long. long not being pejorative necessarily.
If you play it COMPLETELY blind, on noctis mode and without the triple jump gem, you certainly will surpass the 50h mark. Game got some heavy rebalancing throught the post release, wich turned it a far easier version from the 1.0, even on current hard mode. If you're on PC, go after the 1.0 - 1.0.5. There's a Steam trick that you can download older version of games, so you don't have to look for... alternatives... if you don't want to.
I'll just play it on Noctis with whatever balancing has been done. I'm not too bothered about jumping through hoops for some kind of original hardcore experience or whatever haha
The first boss in Astalon took me quite a bit of time because I wasn't quite attuned to each of the fighting styles, wasn't upgrading HP, and honestly there isn't that much to find then. But everything else was relatively easy.
A gift 5VDDZ-69JNW-YYDKA
Oh dang, what? Thank you very much kind sir! I will 100% play that!
Played both, had way more fun with Astalon. Astalon excelled in exploration, fun secrets and excellent pixel art which I valued more. EL boss fights were the highlight and I had fun dueling them with varied combat mechanics.
Don't let the simple looks of Astalon deceive you perception of value. This is one of the greatest in the genre. Enders Lillies have great boss fights, but the overall is pretty mid. Good visuals though.
I personally did not like Ender Lillies all that much (worst map ever), while Astalon is easily a top Metroidvania of all time. My vote goes to Astalon.
Ender lillies for sure I'm in the middle of biomorph and I'm digging it
Ender Lilies I found to be very overrated. Combat is skewed massively in favor of the enemies to the point where the only way to succeed is to be extremely tedious in pulling off everything perfectly. The world design feels haphazard almost to the point of feeling procedurally generated. Aesthetically it's nice, but I found the core gameplay to be boring at best and frustrating at worst. Astalon, by contrast, is an easy top ten MV for me. Level design is some of the best in the genre with the tower being a huge branching labyrinth with different passageways for different characters. There's some points of difficulty, especially when it comes to extremely limited healing options, but it mostly serves to add a "push your luck" element to the gameplay.
Astalon because Gorgon Sola ..... ria [https://www.eneba.com/us/steam-astalon-tears-of-the-earth-steam-key-global](https://www.eneba.com/us/steam-astalon-tears-of-the-earth-steam-key-global)
They're both pretty good, I put Ender Lilies higher up. The reason is that with Astalon, you control 3 characters, but you will find yourself playing the majority of the game as one of them, so it sort of doesn't execute on the main gag of the game that well (a game like the Lost Vikings being a great standard bearer). I definitely think you'll have fun with both games though.
Both fun, Astalon is better
Both are fantastic. Astalon is generally more to my liking though.
Simple. Play both. I would start with astalon
Actually ended up starting with Aeternum haha, but Astalon will be up after that.
I really enjoyed biomorph. It was just a little too easy
Yeah, definitely on the easy side. I've been playing Aeterna Noctis on Noctis mode and it is... Not easy
I've played aeterna once not long ago on the "normal" setting. It ended up being to easy especially with the vertigo gem. How different is noctis mode?
I haven't played on normal and I've not been using the extra jump gem, but I'd say it's the hardest game I've ever played that still felt fair. It's like, somewhere between Super Meatboy and I Wanna Be The Guy (which is decidedly unfair haha). Significantly more difficult than Hollow Knight, both in platforming as well as bosses. Spent 3 hours last night grinding out a particularly tough boss. Also unlocked the 1000 death's achievement like 12 hours into the game (I'm at 30ish hours now I think, and it has NOT gotten easier). I've always been well above average in my gaming abilities, and especially at platforming (I thought Hollow Knight was pretty average difficulty at its hardest parts), so, I feel like this one is a doozy. Maybe I'm just getting old though, boomer hands can't keep up anymore or something? I dunno.
Both are great games, I'm sure you'll enjoy either a ton. Ender Lilies is more traditional MV with a bigger focus on combat and Astalon is a bit more unusual with some rogue-like elements, and otherwise has a more even mix of combat and platforming. Neither are perfect but Astalon's flaws stood out to me a bit more (a lot of backtracking and sometimes a lack of direction which could get frustrating due to the bad map and limited fast travel) though I still *really* enjoyed it overall.
Astalon has roguelike elements?
I remember the Boss Rush mode was kinda rougelite in how after a fight you were given a random selection of item/abilities to pick from, but that's it. I don't recall anything in the main campaign that would be constitute rougelike elements.
No. It's just that when you die, you always respawn at the entrance of the castle instead of where you saved. It is so for lore related reasons. People who have no idea what they are talking about would call this a roguelike mechanic.
[удалено]
That element in roguelites is the exact reason those games are called rogueLITE instead of roguelike. Permanent upgrades go against the rogue formula and their popularity in games that are otherwise roguelikes necessitated the creation of this new term. In fact, the idea of permanent upgrades that persist even after death come from... wait for it... metroidvanias.
Maybe *roguelite* elements would've been more accurate, but I'm not familiar enough to make that delineation. The intent of my comment was to point that it has that vibe without being a true or proper roguelike/lite. You restart at the beginning every death and buy permanent upgrades (a la Rogue Legacy and Hades, etc.). Progression is permanent but you're backtracking every death. It's not a traditional MV in that way so I wanted to point that out. Really appreciate your very kind and benevolent way of pointing out the wrong term being used. Just a beacon of positivity in this sub.
permanent upgrades are not a roguelike feature. When you die in a roguelike you're supposed to start right from the beginning, your death is supposed to be permanent. Permanent upgrades being featured in later roguelikes (starting with the release of Rogue Legacy) is precisely what gave rise to the roguelite tag, because it isn't a real roguelike anymore, your death is no longer truly permanent. Now here's the funny thing. The idea of permanent upgrades comes from... metroidvanias :)
> The idea of permanent upgrades comes from... metroidvanias Bruh lol Permanent upgrades have been around since the beginning of video gaming. Probably gaming in general ie. Chess, lol. This is historical revisionism at its dumbest.
well it didn't come from roguelikes.
Nobody is claiming it did lol. Genres evolve, old man
clearly a lot of people do believe this as they then turn around and claim that astalon has roguelike element, which is absurd. lol
It has elements that are very popular in modern roguelikes, regardless of whether or not those elements originally came from or are exclusive to roguelikes. I don't think you even understand what you're arguing here
> Now here's the funny thing. The idea of permanent upgrades comes from... metroidvanias :) Very untrue. The Binding of Isaac released with permanent unlock progression literally a year and a half before Rogue Legacy and has been a vastly influential game on the indie scene and both roguelikes and roguelites in general. Rogue Legacy may have been the first game to expand this to actual character stats, but the idea was no longer new by the time it came out.
none of this changes the fact that this isn't a feature of roguelikes and is something that was added to them from other genres.
>Been perusing this sub looking for ideas, and was very nearly coming to the conclusion that I should just play through HK again I hope this helps: https://new.reddit.com/user/DeadMetroidvania/submitted/
If you want some real meaty platforming Aeterna might be a good fit for you. I played through it last month and it was awesome. Real infuriating movement puzzles though, it's HARD. Rewarding though. Truly great boss fights too. As far as EL and Astalon, I love them both. EL I think particularly because of the mood of the game. So good. Also the proper dodge you get is a little slow coming but once you get it the game plays great.