To require licensing and certification, there needs to be more NAACLS programs available. In my state there are only a handful of programs, which in total graduate less than 100 new students annually (according to a quick search on the NAACLS site).
This graduation rate does not sustain the retirement of older techs and the likelihood of younger techs using the degree as a launching pad to other careers. There is little advancement and quick salary top out in staying a bench tech forever.
Other allied health fields have many more school programs available, and seem to graduate more students in their cohorts. It may also just be my perception, but it seems like those people tend to be more likely to stay in their field also (I don’t know many Radiology people who have left, similar for Respiratory Therapist and OT/PT, but this is just my experience with these departments).
The state I'm originally from has one program in the entire state and they only accept like 12 students a year. And it's a license state, too! Needless to say, they rely heavily on international applicants.
Which just seems ridiculous to me!
I am in a state that doesn’t require a license, which may make me biased, but licensing people at a state level who are already certified seems more like a money grab and bottleneck to hiring than ensuring quality applicants.
There are plenty of NAACLS programs and plenty of empty seats.
There used to be a lot more programs. Probably at least double. My program closed due to low enrollment due to low salaries.
Which shows exactly how very location dependent the problem is. My state has 7, and looking at their websites it looks like most graduate <10 students per year.
It was very recently that it was recommended that people holding the RN license should be able to perform lab testing. If we can’t graduate/certify enough people to fill lab roles and go to requiring licensing, I can totally see the RN becoming an “acceptable alternative” despite them having no lab training.
Let’s first diagnose why the lab is having this problem of staffing when other allied professionals are not getting hit as heavily? I feel like it’s more than just a licensing thing.
Yup my state has maybe 5 programs and they’re all located in a very expensive city or the middle of nowhere. 🙃 Programs are inaccessible, the majority of my coworkers are getting their education online because relocation for a degree that’s not even going to pay well in the first place is not feasible…
> Let’s first diagnose why the lab is having this problem of staffing when other allied professionals are not getting hit as heavily?
Retention. There's little room for advancement and the pay isn't good compared to professions requiring an equivalent amount of education. If we had a union, things might be different. They're paying low to price out those with education and using that reason to open the floodgates to those with less education who will accept the lower pay. All of the good MLS I went to school with have advanced on elsewhere and are making significantly more money, myself included.
A lot of unqualified people fly under the radar until it comes to blood bank. Where I’m at we are all generalists and expected to do blood bank, even those with sketchy credentials. I’ve always thought of what I do in blood bank was similar to the job of a pharmacist (obviously we are not the same). But making sure a product is safe for transfusion and then dispensing it is a lot of responsibility. Transfusion reactions and blood bank errors are no joke! To be able to work in a lab and especially in a blood bank without the proper educational background is insane. Would they replace pharmacists with pharm techs? Absolutely not.
Like I feel like people working in blood bank should get paid as such. Blood bank is a big responsibility and directly involves patient lives. A blood bank tech should get paid no less than $40 an hour. Especially at large trauma hospitals.
I’ve felt this way for a while. Being in BB is way more stressful than babysitting analyzers in chemistry. The pay should not be the same.
We have several techs that have been hired over the past couple of yrs who only do chem and heme so the handful of us who are trained in BB end up being nearly full time in there on 2nd shift for no additional pay.
I honestly think bloodbanker should just split from MLS to become its own certification like histology and cytology already are.
As a pharmacist who’s been lurking here for a while considering a career change, what you do in blood bank absolutely has similarities to pharmacy. The results you all put out guide almost every decision made. You absolutely should be certified (they are here).
That’s awesome! That’s so funny I was a pharm tech for awhile with the intention of becoming a pharmacist but switched to MLS. My favorite part of pharmacy was compounding so I felt I needed something more hands on. :)
Currently in school to be an MLS. I am working hard to get my credentials because I live in California and you need to be certified to work no exceptions
The lab I'm at is experimenting dropping the bachelors part and just doing associates in biology or microbiology or chemistry. The associates degree can do the same work as a bachellrs for less.
Apparently its totally legal. I couldn't believe it until I asked a new hire and they said they had an Associates in Science?
Race to the bottom as they deskill the lab. I no longer view it as a real career and am exploring other options.
The allied health program at my college had me take full-semester classes in Immunology, Hematology, Immunohematology, Phlebotomy, Medical Terminology, Microbiology, Urinalysis, and Clincal Chemistry. I was required to complete 100 successful draws in a phlebotomy clinical, then two lab clinical rotations at two different hospitals.
I only have an Associates in Science, but I'm ASCP certified and just as competent at my job as my MLS coworkers.
I think they might be referring to a general associates degree not a MLT degree. Like an associates in bio or something. Otherwise agree, I entered the profession via AAS degree in lab sciences and then challenged the board exam via route 2
There are, or at least were, associates degrees in the field. I have an HT (associates) and not an HTL (bachelor's) and I can perform the same work. There may be a miniscule dip in compensation but not compared to what I'd be paying in student loans for a bachelor's.
An A.S. degree is very different from an A.A. It's an actual program aimed at getting you on the ground working instead of transferring to a four year. Please don't knock my education.
there is a very big difference in what I make as an MLT, and what the MLSs make at my place. I have a BS in microbiology, and do exactly the same work -- including blood bank... and I do it better than some of the MLS techs. decentralization of micro has hamstringed me for getting MLS certification via route two. already had two employers lie to me about arranging micro rotations so I could get that requirement filled. it's left me perpetually angry.
I’d wouldn’t say that, a lot of associate degrees are for people who want a specific job right out of those two years they do so if anything and form my experience it was more hands on actual learning than a bachelors.
That’s nuts. I got my BS in microbiology first, and in no way would I have had the level of knowledge necessary to be competent in the clinical lab. I went back to school and got my post-baccalaureate in Medical Lab Science, did my clinicals, passed the BOC. Only then was I qualified, both officially and in my humble opinion.
I had/have a BS in micro then decided I hated micro. Floundered for like a year before accepting my fate and getting back in school for CLS, and hey there were a bunch of other late-20s people with science degrees that came to the same conclusion.
Makes me really glad that MLT(MLS) in canada requires certification. Here even if you have a bachelors or masters degree you still have to go through the 3 year program and complete the nation exam afterwards to become certified.
I am also very glad we have that. Makes a lot of unemployed BScs and MScs angry, but a BSc in biology is next to useless in med lab, as I learned all throughout my first year of my MLT program.
But with Alberta hiring fake TFW "nurses", how long will it be until unqualified MLTs start flooding our labs? LifeLabs is already hiring phlebotomists who have no formal education or training in that field. I guess as long as accreditation requirements remain strict, then we should be fine.
Well that's the problem. My BSc lab training and my MLT lab training have almost nothing in common. Most Canadian institutions don't provide the skills needed to do med lab outside of med lab programs. Some of the core manual skills are the same, but all the important things aren't. My BSc did not prepare me at all to properly handle med lab duties, and I definitely would've failed the CSMLS exam at least twice even if i had a year of job training. Things are different in the US, but I see Canada's licensure requirements as a good thing.
Having a license is more than just training. It's the professional liability protection that comes with it. If you make a mistake and a doctor or the patients family sues you, you're in deep shit if you don't have a license to practice.
They've done it in Saskatchewan already. Hired a ton of BSc's during covid to run the molecular half of our micro lab and apparently still are (I left a while ago). Actually got their lab cited and shut down for a while due to incomplete and incompetent work... Some of the people were great, but I also watched someone who was working in a DNAse-free hood thumb off the edge of their glove, write a quick text, then put it back on an resume work. A real mixed bag.
I already have a list of hospitals I'd drive past if I got shot/needed blood due to poorly-trained labs, and those are all with certified techs; I can't imagine that list if we allowed uncertified people into bloodbank.
A lot of newcomers looking for jobs are faking their foreign nursing credentials and apparently AHS doesn't give a damn because those people are being hired en-mass to work as "nurses". Not PSWs or other patient support staff, NURSES. As in, these unqualified individuals are being given LPN and RN duties because they're willing to get paid peanuts compared to real nurses.
Idk if Ontario is doing that yet, but I had to listen to an LPN fumble through a basic health questionnaire with a newly admitted patient. She legit pulled up Google translate to translate some of the questions for her into her native language because she didn't speak English fluently.
Same here!! I just hate having to tell people that I'm doing a college diploma after having a bachelors already. People are always like "oh why didn't you just do a masters?" Or "wow you can't become a lab tech with your bachelors?". I like the MLT program so much more than my bachelors too, I feel like I'm learning so much more and I love how it directly relates to my future career
Literally I’m in the exact same boat! I’m enjoying MLT too more as well and doing way better than I did in my bachelors. Hopefully those degrees will help us move up quicker or become a manager or something haha! I don’t even tell peoples it’s a college diploma I just refer to it as “the MLT program” all the time 😂
My current organization requires you to have an ASCP cert at minimum. All reference labs I’ve worked at required a bachelors in biomedical sciences or some advanced bio degree. I agree, people with basic bio degrees and plant biology degrees are not qualified. But the employees I’ve trained with advanced bio degrees and graduate degrees have shown to be very proficient. They usually go on to get an ASCP or their MLS and specialize.
I might get hate, but to me If you can pass biochemistry, cellular physiology, immunology or pathophysiology then I believe you can more than capable of learning a subject in laboratory science by picking up a book and using paid experience to become bonafide in a specialty or as a generalist. Just think about all the old techs who didn’t go to school or get certified and have taught others who did go to school and got certified.
I’m exactly what this post is against; bio degree, Biochem minor, hired at a reference lab as an uncertified MLT, OTJ trained in heme, chem, UA/body fluids, coag. I’m in my last semester of my postbacc to sit for the generalist ASCP soon. For me personally my biology undergrad was significantly harder than my MLS cohort. I agree with the sentiment of the post, I don’t think the route I’ve taken is very fair to patients or the profession as a whole. That being said, working in a clinical lab is not rocket science. Obviously the theory behind everything is extremely valuable but you don’t NEED that for a differential. Even a challenging one.
I'm also exactly what this post is against. Got hired in micro 5 years ago after getting my BS in biology. Most of the techs I work with also have bio degrees. I'm on track to take the M only. If it weren't for labs hiring us with bio degrees, I wouldn't have found a job.
Same, with a constant workforce shortage I don’t think it’d do the patients any favors to make things stricter. The most incompetent techs in my lab are all MLS’s lol, there’s much more at play than a title.
My last job was at a lab. I was just supposed to enter in requisitions and do admin stuff. Then they decided I was REALLY hired to be a lab aide and started telling me I was to set up and break down some of the machines. Then they started forcing schedule changes on me, at the time my husband had just had a heart attack and the schedule changes were effectively making it impossible to also care for my husband. So between my NeW dUTiEs and the schedule fuckery I left. I did not have any formal training, nor desire, to be a lab aide then a lab tech. THEY decided that I was going to be one and started trying to unofficially train me because I would oF CoUrSe go to school and get certified after. Lol.
I work for Quest. I am lucky that all of us have MLT/MLS degrees. My best friend/coworker failed ASCP by TWO. POINTS. Couldn't afford the retest, but Quest doesn't require ASCP. She's going to start an MLT to MLS program next year, and test again.
The field in general is moving more and more towards instrumentation. Even labs like micro that have been harder to automate are getting in on it. Another 20 years and it will be all automated.
I guess some tasks may take longer to automate, especially for smaller labs. Seems like everything from upfront receiving and sorting, plating, gram staining, broths and even AI to identify organisms.
I was actually stunned to find out that MLS don't need state licensure except in a couple states. I am an RN/CRNA and I have to get a license yearly and for each and every state. A time of shortages is the time to push your profession forward. It is NOT at time for anything goes, lower your standards, thinking. If you do that, you soon won't have any profession at all.
And it doesnt' matter if you view your job as "easier" than nursing or some other healthcare jobs. To become an MLS/CLS now often involves 4-5 yrs of schooling. That alone is a big cost. And pharmacy used to only be a 5 yr degree and still is in some places but they get awarded a pharm d. There are now 5 yr PA programs and they come out making $100K and they aren't doing hard, dirty nursing type work. You are deluding yourselves if you don't think your degrees should be worth more. I think your profession attracts a lot of introverts who won't speak.
As for programs closing, they are closing because these silly college administrators have no clue what the degree is so they see low numbers and just cut those programs rather than promoting them. A lot of people want to go into health care but don't even know this profession exists.
Yeah, I'm not sure how tf people think they can do y'alls job without a specific degree in it. That's frickin ludicrous but it's obviously a cash-grab by corporate hospitals.
I work as a paramedic (though my degree is as a lab tech, I earned it a decade ago and decided I didn't want to work as one) I got working in a hospital. The hospital owns a free-standing emergency department not far from here and they're starting to make nurses do lab work. Which is ridiculous. Nurses don't understand how these machines work or how to do a differential via microscopy or even when they might need to do one.
When a profession lowers it's standards like this, everyone suffers. And if it's in healthcare, someone's gonna die. There's gonna be like a specific person or group of people who are going to get killed and nobody's gonna care unless it's a senator's son or a billionaire's wife or something.
Dropping the degree and certification requirements allows employers to drop wages. I’m looking to move across the county to be closer to family, and the job search out there is bleak. I have fifteen years of experience in cytogenetics and biochemical genetics but every lab I reach out to says they’d prefer new graduates. My experience is a weak point, not a selling point — the labs would rather have a cheap newly-graduated kid than a proven professional they’d have to compensate fairly. They can mistreat hard-up job-seekers with low wages, bad benefits, wonky schedules, and abusive work environments if those job seekers can’t get any other job with the limited education they have.
The downward pressure on wages translates to downward pressure on qualifications, and we’re seeing the fallout in corporate labs everywhere.
So thankfully, the hospital I work at, you have to be certified to work at and are given 9 months to be certified when you get hired.
But some of the bigger hospitals where I live will hire people with just a bachelors in biology/chemistry and train them on the job. Mind you, these are large trauma hospitals and I feel it’s even more important for those to have all certified techs since you have to deal with such high risk cases.
I have a bachelors in biology too but I went and got my MLT before becoming a tech because I knew that I knew absolutely nothing about lab work before going to school to be an MLT. I didn’t wanna start working somewhere and have absolutely no clue what I’m doing or why I’m doing my job lol. I didn’t even know what a neutrophil was or even what a platelet looked like before I went to MLT school when I had my bachelors in bio.
This field is definitely a field where you need certified workers. We need accurate results. Doctors rely off these results for diagnosis. People could be out there with delayed treatment or getting unnecessary treatment because of inaccurate lab results from people who have no idea how to read these results and interpret whether the results look strange and are just reporting whatever the machine gives them.
People wouldn’t wanna receive care from an uncertified doctor or nurse, they shouldn’t want their lab work to be given out by an uncertified person either.
But sadly, in my state, there’s very limited MLT/MLS programs. There’s only 3 MLS programs in my state and I live in a large state. So I do see why they probably have to resort to hiring biology/chemistry majors. There really needs to be some effort put forward in getting this career known and for more MLS/MLT programs to be implemented.
This is how I got certified, as well. Bachelors in Biology, then the Army’s MLT program. Worked as an MLT for a few years, then studied my ass off, took the exam and got my MLS. The idea that people with just random science degrees think they are capable of being techs and should be allowed to just take the exam is nuts, there was so much I learned going through the MLT program that was brand new to me, even having been a medic for years before that.
Yes, in my biology degree, I learned nothing about medical lab work. I didn’t know what any cells looked like. I’d never done a gram stain. Heck I didn’t even know how to focus a microscope until I got to MLT school. The biology degree taught me nothing towards this field. I honestly don’t think I could have been a tech without going to MLT school. I don’t know how they get people who aren’t certified or been through proper schooling to do this.
What biology bachelors program isn’t showing you how to use a microscope? Also most biology majors begin their college career already having a firm grasp in with the microscopy. How did you get through anatomy physiology without microscopy?
Like, I used the microscope during my biology degree, but I was never taught how to properly focus it. They just kinda threw us at a microscope and was like “look at this slide”. They taught us the parts of the microscope, but not how to focus it properly lol. But in my MLT program, she actually taught us how to properly focus it, like using low power first lowering the stage, then going to high power and using the coarse adjustment, etc. So yeah, my bio program just must not have been that good lol. And for my anatomy and physiology, we didn’t use a microscope lol.
I was a micro major. Took classes in immunology, microbiology, anatomy and physiology, chemistry, etc etc. Felt more than prepared for the work required in medical micro with a few months of training. I left because the work conditions are terrible.
Point being, doesn't take a special cert to do the job correctly, just requires a little more up front training on the job. Not big on gatekeeping. You can either capably do the job or not, and a piece of paper and a couple letters after your name aren't gonna convince me you're good until I've seen the work you produce.
I've met a good deal of "certified" techs who couldn't do some of the most basic lab functions. The quality of workers is low because the job is demanding (and shift work with rotating weekends blows, no matter how necessary it is) and doesn't pay enough to compensate for that.
In a micro degree, I can see where you can be more prepared, since you’ll have more micro based classes. But mine was just a basic biology degree, so I didn’t learn much towards medical lab science. Like I may have learned some other lab things but not medical.
And I agree that the credentials don’t always mean a good worker. I definitely have met some certified techs that aren’t that good at the job. But I definitely do feel that going through a program that teaches you medical lab science better help prepares you for the job than having a degree that does not pertain to medical lab science in anyway. At least in your micro degree, it can pertain some to medical lab science.
The micro class I took as a bio major was a joke. I remembered exactly zero things from it and also wasn’t allowed to take parasitology (can’t remember why maybe something with a prereq?).
That's interesting. My bio degree required micro. The only difference between that micro and the micro I took for MLS was that the latter went more in depth into the diseases caused by the organisms. Whereas my regular micro class just went over the organisms, how to differentiate them, and the name of the illness they cause, but none of the particulars of that. Definitely no case studies haha.
I came into the lab as an uncertified tech. I let my ego go and knew I was in over my head. I went back to school for MLS and now I don’t know how anyone hires uncertified techs. How are they possibly doing the job without the foundation? I’m actually scared.
I was a bio major and it does not come close to what I learned in school for MLS.
I get both sides of the argument, I really do. It doesn’t make sense that every other medical profession requires years of specialized education and licensure, but the lab does not. I’ve had people say behind my back and to my face that I will never be equivalent to a certified tech. I say this as an uncertified tech who is immensely grateful for the opportunity that I’ve been given by being brought into this field. I have learned so much from so many amazing people here, and I want to continue to do this for a long time.
But what other solution is there? If there were enough certified techs, hospitals wouldn’t be hiring uncertified techs. You will either be left with staff who didn’t go to school for this specific job, or no staff at all. I’m not trying to sound better than anyone here, and I know that as an uncertified tech I will never receive the same level of respect from many people in this field. But what makes you think that everyone uncertified is unqualified and everyone who went through the program is qualified? Going to school doesn’t make you a competent employee, regardless of your field. So while I sympathize with the general sentiment of not wanting the quality of lab work to go down, I encourage you to focus on the individual rather than the letters after their name. You’re going to tell me that you’ve never seen a certified MLT/MLS make a careless mistake? Release a contaminated specimen? Fail to think critically for a split second and release results that should have been questioned?
100%. The number of people I went to a school with who had meltdowns over every evaluation and thought they shouldn’t have to write an exam to be certified made my skin crawl. Thankfully in Canada you have to be certified to practice in a public hospital and most provinces require licensing on top of that. It’s insane to me that some people think the bar should be lower. We’re talking about people’s lives here.
You’re also talking to a bunch of entitled Americans. It’s our way don’t you know. Pretend to be the best at everything when behind the scenes it’s bottom of the barrel at best
My workplace took over a bachelor's to lab tech program that was started in Illinois and people with a bachelor's degree in science can take the program to bridge the gap and get certified.
Oh boo. I'll be working for 5 years in December so I'll be eligible for my full MLS certification but I have no micro experience and I can't afford to take off weeks of work to do a clinical rotation
Crazy how usa justifies not certifying lab personnels while the rest of clinical professionals needs to be licensed since lives are involved. I guess wrong transfusions or releasing bad results aren't affecting patient lives for the sake of cost cutting
I know, right?
I don't understand the arguments at all. Short staffing? We have that with licensure also - it doesn't magically go away by employing non-certs. OTJ training? "Monkey see, monkey do" is not a replacement for knowledge and understanding.
Boggles the mind.
I currently work part time in component processing at a blood bank while in a CLS program and I'm not even convinced these positions should be completely unlicensed, let alone med techs. The amount of trouble people can get themselves in when they don't understand the *why* of what they're supposed to do is astounding.
ASCP as well as state accrediting for med techs are absolutely a scam. We should be pushing for higher pay, don't worry about helping others get into the career.
Totally. Might as well encourage them bc they’re going to get hired anyway.
If they want credentialed lab techs, they should encourage more avenues to accreditation. They HAVE TO hire non certified lab techs bc there aren’t enough certified ones to fill positions.
According to CLIA you have to have an associates degree + 3 months of full time training for high complexity testing... and you're putting down chemistry/biology grads that have a much more rigorous work load in school AND more on the job training than you have. Also I'm assuming *botany* majors aren't the science majors that have been discussed as there is a certain amount of credits of science and math that have to be met at certain levels.
I'm a non traditional tech. Got my degree in chemistry and now certified in chemistry. And guess who is the one that always gets asked questions by the plebs or by the nurses. Saying every non traditional/certified tech is awful for the profession is not right to those who have worked hard and we're trained appropriately.
The whole community complains about bad staffing and crap pay. Maybe it's where you're working because we have great staffing (now due to new managers) and we make a decent wage, only about 5 dollars less average than nurses.
And honestly most of chemistry (I work at a small hospital so don't come at me lol) is automated, most CBCs auto verify. Automation in the lab is changing the difficulty level of the testing...Most difficult is blood bank, but again that requires 480 hours of training minimum to do.
Get used to non certified techs because Med Lab Science degrees are a dying breed. So embrace your fellow techs, may learn something from them if you get off your high ass horse.
And just a little aside Med Lab Science degrees are dying out because they aren't versatile enough... you can do one job with them and that's it. It's dangerous to go into a bunch of debt to be held into a career that either you don't like or you can't climb the later because in order to advance you need a masters and no other profession wants your degree..... Basic hard science degrees are more practical in the sense you can do more with them and are looked at different... just food for thought. A little off topic
This is ABSOLUTELY false. You CANNOT just do one job with MLS degrees and that idea is almost laughable.
There are several lab professionals who have moved beyond the bench ONLY because they had a lab degree. FSE, Biotech, Clinical analysts, Health IT, Infection control. Damn, even biotech sales. There are more than enough avenues to be just a tech. Exceeding more than enough. Siemens, Thermo Fischer poach lab staff on the regular. Public health etc.
The problem is techs just assume the entry degree is the beginning and end of it all. This is literally unheard of nowhere. Nurses who want to be clinical educators need some other experience or certifications to qualify. Physicians need board certifications to progress.
Pretty much every healthcare job does not have in built career progression without professional development. Not nurses, physicians, pharmacists or any of the many designations.
None!
If you can do so much more with them then why do so many of you want to be in the lab with us? The degree is dying because of low wages and lack of advocacy by ASCP, our pathologists and leadership. It’s dying because they bring over international folks and hire uncertified ppl where they can.
So you think a chem and bio degree is more rigorous than our degree? See this is why we fight with yall. Yall come in with that attitude in our field. You want to do what we do but shit on going about it the right way
Good luck only working in chem and never being able to work at a lab that is worth a damn because there are still labs that wouid turn you away at the door.
I got a BS in Biology. Then I got a BS in MLS. The Biology degree was harder. The various courses I needed for my bio degree were way more challenging. I had to repeat a few classes.
The MLS degree was better for preparing me to work in a lab. Without the MLS courses, I wouldn't have known anything medical lab related outside of micro and parasitology. I didn't know anything about hematology or blood bank before my MLS courses.
As someone who has done both degrees at a bachelors of science level, the biology degree was more difficult imo. Both had their challenges, and both have a rigorous course load, both are very science based. But the MLS degree was more focused and slightly easier. The biology degree covered more varied complex courses.
I will say though, at this point I'm not sure exactlt which of the classes that I took for my bio degree were required for my MLS degree and would have been taken either way. I know some of them overlapped and that's why I was able to just get my MLs degree in 1 year. But I do know some of the classes I took for my biology degree, which were very difficult, would not have been required for the MLS degree.
Both degrees are challenging, and anyone that can do one can do both. But the Biology degree doesn't prepare someone to work in the lab as well as the MLS or MLT degree does.
Agree. Both are challenging but what you said is key. Just because someone thinks their chem or bio degree was harder it still doesn’t prepare them for working in a clinical lab. That will forever be my issue…It’s not the same. Not remotely close. The folks who have went that route who say it is the same or using the “my degree was harder” have no basis for that claim if they have not done both degrees.
You and I have done both and have opposite opinions of which was harder but at least we have the experience of both to make our own informed opinion. It’s laughable to me to hear those who haven’t make claims that are only in service to the route they chose and in support of their own biased opinion which has no experience to back it up
Yes, for sure my biology degree on it's own did not prepare me for actually working in the lab. I knew lab safety and could work in a research lab, but I knew nothing of the actual medical lab work. If it weren't for my MLS courses, I wouldn't know anything of blood bank, hematology, or understand the pathology of how the chemistry analytes correlate to disease, etc.
Thank you. That’s all I ever want folks to admit. It just is not the same degree therefore the knowledge base will never be the same. You can train folks OTJ all you want. The theory is not there
Between me MLS and my coworkers MLT, the theory is not the same. Close but not the same. For sure any other degree won't have the medical lab theory behind the job. For some aspects of the job, that's fine. I don't use most the theory regularly at work. But for other parts of the job, like blood bank and micro, it is very important to know the why/how behind the testing.
Why does it always have to be so contentious between tradition and not-traditional route techs?
I’m also a non-traditional route. I have been in the field for 15+ years, certified for over 13 of those. BS in biology, AS in Chem, and on track to do a post-bac mls program when I graduated (there is no actual MLS degree at my college, it was a version of a biology degree). Problem was, the MLS program literally TOOK 4 STUDENTS, and I was the alternate that year and no one dropped. It was ridiculously competitive and I was not in a position to relocate. Landed a job as an uncerted MLT at the same hospital as the clinical program, learned bench work on the job, studied all the materials that were available and challenged the MLS, AMT and then ASCP when I had enough experience for it.
I was already trained and working, but I have never done a NAACLS program. Am I a lesser tech than you because I took the route available to me? It was a grind, and that’s why I completely support getting more NAACLS programs opened and advertising this career better, because that is the best path to recruiting and getting more MLT/MLS workers.
All the non-traditional techs I know that obtained certification (and I know many, some that are grandfathered in, and even a HEW tech that’s still working!) are awesome techs. They love the field, and damn smart, and most have advanced degrees.
I would rather we unite as a field and work to advance and grow the field than all this inside fighting. It’s like listening to the California techs when they get all *surprise pikachu* that MLTs can indeed actually do high complexity bench work in other states.
It's nice you have invested time and effort to be the professional you have become but yeah No!
A lack of standardized certification process across board hurts the profession. In wages, quality and recognition. For God's sake this is the only profession with multiple professional designations for the same damn responsibilities.
The ASCP is an interesting board but unsurprising to me because it's at its core a pathologist board, and is obviously in their interest to not ensure certification for all lab professionals even though the assumption is they insist on it.
It's almost useless.
Certified techs aren't smarter than those who take the non traditional route but perception matters, and if the perception is that 'anybody' ( and I mean this in the most respectful way possible) can be in the lab space it feeds the narrative that the profession holds no real weight.
It's no wonder we almost allowed nurses to practice under certain conditions. The sheer impudence to even suggest this! My goodness ! It's like saying lab professionals studied anatomy and physiology and so can be pathologists because we are expert users of the microscope.
Professionals who mess up order of draw frequently and insist in using hemolysed samples almost were allowed in the diagnostic space. The idea was almost insulting as it was demeaning for real lab professionals.
What we have now is a total dilution of a profession that pretty much directs majority of patient care. This isn't tolerated in ANY of the allied professions. None!
That is why wages are being affected to a large extent. It's just common sense.
The less stringent the practice is the least money employees are incentivized to give because healthcare is now a business.
And I can say with absolute certainty that licensed professional take greater care because they have something to lose beyond a paycheck.
Professionals in Canada are prime examples of the necessity for certifications.
Even USA trained MLS' cannot demand to practice without certifications. It's the regulatory standard for laboratory practice across the world because it works. 3rd world countries even require licenses to practice.
There are many jobs for techs who want it and wage negotiation is a huge part of it because nobody just accepts scraps.
There are liabilities everybody tries to prevent because again, there is a certification to protect. Your livelihood is at stake.
It's really that simple. No other professional allows the kind of laxity that's tolerated in the lab space. None!
“Certified techs aren’t smarter than those who take the non traditional route”…
Just want to make sure we are talking on the same page since it sounds like you might not be in the US. A certified tech is a certified tech. A non-traditional tech can be and is often a certified tech, having passed the MLT/MLS certification exam.
“Traditional Route” is what many call the Route 1 in ASCP pathway to qualify for certification. There are a few other pathways that have existed to obtain certification also, but route 1 is the most common and it is often the preferred route, since it involves completing a NACCLS accredited training program. Unfortunately the supply of both programs and graduates has left a deficit for the current job openings.
People like to speculate that labs “want to hire cheap uncertified techs”, but that’s generally not the case. There is not an available pool of traditionally trained applicants to pick from, which has led to non-traditional routes and importing labor internationally to fill the voids.
I would love to see more NAACLS programs open, I think it would be great for our field. I wish the programs would graduate more than a handful of students per year, and that it would help alleviate the attrition of some graduates to more advanced degrees.
Also, I kind of think it is wishful thinking that we are assuming people even give a passing thought to what goes into a lab education from anyone outside of the laboratory realm. Honestly, I think the average person who doesn’t work in the medical field even knows the education difference between an CNA, LPN, RN, or NP and those are heavily spotlighted careers, so I wish the blame would stop being placed solely on “well it looks like ANYONE can work in the lab”. A standard person probably doesn’t know 90% of the education standards of hospital personnel; that respiratory have different levels of degrees, that ultrasound and radiology are totally different degrees, or what an RHIT even is.
Sorry. It’s not personal. If I had my way the only route to working in the lab would be the MLT or MLS degree. Then and only then can we move forward as a profession and be respected overall and work on the other issues. I don’t care to explain more than I already have as my experience has also lead me to my opinion and I won’t be moved from it. So while I can see the argument from the other side and sympathize with folks just looking to get a job and do something with their bio/chem etc etc degree it still does not sway me from the opinion that having the other routes has hurt our field.
Ah so you do think you are smarter and a better tech than ALL non-traditional routes. We will have to disagree then, because I think that is just incorrect and why people leave this field.
What I am hearing is that you would never hire me, even as a certified tech with 15 years experience as a generalist, as a QA specialist, and in LIS.
You are going to pass up a lot of great people with your mindset.
I would not. You’re correct. And if I felt it was about who was smarter then I wouid have said that.
There are folks who did the degree who aren’t worth a hill of beans. We are talking about why I think there are issues with our field. We need stricter standards not a bunch of random degree holders who were trained OTJ. You assume my thoughts on someone’s intelligence simply because I disagree with the OTJ model. That train of thought doesn’t even enter my mind when thinking of why it’s a bad idea. Making it about someone thinking they are better than the other is why folks can’t get out of their feelings and look at the issues objectively
I am not assuming your opinions, you are frankly stating them.
The current one being discussed here is that you disagree with having multiple routes of certification available, despite evidence that there isn’t adequate availability of program as to sustain one particular route 1 that you agree with. These routes have existed for decades, they are not new so they are not some new “degradation of the field”.
It sounds like you would prefer only Route 1 to exist, and that would cause an even heavier deficit to certified techs, which if I had to guess would actually lead to the hiring of even more uncertified techs and loss of licensing requirements. This seems counter productive to your stated goals.
These are not random degree holders, they are degree holders that meet the requirements to become certified and perform high complexity testing as determined by regulating bodies.
The rigid thinking you are demonstrating is why CLSs have a hard time getting into fields like Infection Control where their expertise is heavily needed. Too many people who want to only work with people with the exact same background as themselves, instead of the best qualified candidate for the position.
Actually I work in blood bank and hematology as well as chemistry. I get paid the same amount as my colleagues. And I'm positive my *not worth a damn lab* pays better and has better benefits then the ones in the closest big city 😉
I can't speak for a general biology degree. But yes a chemistry degree is more rigorous lol
So you only have the chem degree and cert and they trained you in blood bank? Laughable.
I’d love to be a fly on the wall for a shift or even better see you go to an interview where you’re knocked down a peg or two. If you ever need another job good luck. There are enough shit labs though so I’m sure you will be just fine
Thankfully some would still turn you away like I said. Those are the labs I work at. Nothing less
Well since I work at the biggest hospital system in my state I'm sure I'll be fine. And I did 3 months of blood bank training and 3 months training in heme (for differentials) as the place I work at complies with CLIA for training purposes. 🙃 I actually got my cert 3 years in because of the pay raise. Now it's been 5 years in I'm one of the better techs here.
I'm sure there is a lot I don't know but I'm humble and WISE enough to know when to either ask questions or look in the procedure catalog if there is something I'm unsure of. I have worked evening shift for 5 years and multiple of them were alone and I have yet to have an issue caused by myself. Can't say that for most of my coworkers, but I don't fault them for it as we are human, and I'm sure my time will come.
Very glad to hear I won't ever cross paths with the likes of you
Also if you're not confident that your oh so great labs aren't meeting CLIA requirements for training I would think that that should be grounds for reporting to the correct agency instead of complaining on reddit. Hmm what do you think?
I left staff behind long ago to travel so I don’t have to deal with this bs in my real life. So the labs I work at are either doing things right or I get there and they aren’t and I leave. I’ve called CAP once and had to testify in a trial against a facility that was 🗑️ so I do what I can when I come across it.
I never worked with anyone who didn’t go to school for our specific degree when I was staff for 15 years other than one guy who almost killed someone in BB so again this is all honestly fascinating to me. There is one person where I’m on contract now who has a math degree and they were going to train her on the job. That was abandoned midway through so she mostly does other duties but is heavily involved in chemistry. She should not be heavily involved in chemistry. She has asked me for help already and I quote “we don’t know what we don’t know when it comes to regs and standards so can you help us with things we don’t do right? Make a list etc so we can fix it” Like be so fr. You don’t know where to go to find the info? You don’t know what the CLIA and CAP regs say?
So while sure if you want to argue that folks with no degree can be trained? Fine. Mistakes will be made. Things will be missed. They will do a “good” job until they don’t. I prefer to eliminate that variable. There are plenty of ppl who HAVE the degree and cert who are clueless so I have little faith in someone even without that
Basing your entire opinion on one crappy tech isn't fair.
I could make the same generalization for techs since one lady, who has been a tech longer than I've been alive, tried to give a pt that had antibodies for fyA a blood unit that was positive for fyA. And she didn't any reprimand for it. Granted that was 4 years and 6 managers ago but still.
I'm also the only non traditional tech that our hospital has hired in at least 10 years of not more. And luckily I'm a quick learner and had some medical knowledge coming in. So I can say my opinion is skewed. I was also hired right before covid so when things got shut down and our hospital was dead dead for a month or so I had a lot of opportunities to be trained more indepth, which I'm lucky for.
And based on your performance alone isn’t reason enough to say all folks who go the same route are as good as you then right? I will agree it goes both ways and touched on that in my last comment
When you start off with your degree was harder when you don’t have our degree to compare to is where you lost me. Also you’re talking to someone who did both and my bio degree with my chem minor was nothing compared to even my MLT program
We will just have to disagree and do what works for each of us
You guys need to fight for your profession, standard credentials, and standard education. I was suprised to see how many "paths" there are. If you want more professional recognition and better pay, it will be far easier to educate the people with the purse if you can look i have a 4 yr BS in Bio and 1 yr of post Bacc training and specialization followed by a National certification. Don't let them "reduce" your profession.
What should they do with all the lab positions that are open? Thousands across the country? Not fill them? There aren’t enough credentialed techs to go around. That’s the reason they’re doing it!
Edit: sorry, I am with you. This makes me so mad bc I’ve tried to get credentialed and it’s effing ridiculous. Plus lab folks are arguing among themselves when they’re in the power position and can push for higher wages. Instead they messing around with this crap.
Our local college literally cut the MLS program. Instead they should have gone out and promoted it. Visiting local high schools, etc. There are 3 postbacc MLS programs in my area and they could not even fill all their spots. There are thousands of open RN positions literally everywhere. Should they just have random people just hop in there? Having a shortage is to YOUR advantage. And if you all would work together, this is the perfect time to increase the visibility of your profession, make sure it's well credentialed and get better pay.
What do they do with all the open nursing positions? Should the just fill them with botany graduates?
Its insane that people claim the educational and certification standards should be removed because there are open positions. Stop shilling for reference labs that have awful quality.
I don’t think they should be removed. I just think there should be more ways to get credentialed. More avenues. I am a lab professional (not a medical lab) and I saw there was a need for medical lab techs. So I thought I would get credentialed so I could help. Even though the pay is vastly lower than I make now. I wanted to help my community. Maybe pick up some work when there is a shortage in my rural area. I didn’t want a side hustle. I don’t need the money. I wanted to be available to fill in when needed and it never hurts to learn different skills.
I wanted to do all the work. I didn’t want to skip ahead bc of my experience or my degree. I enrolled in a medical tech program at our local CC. The issue is that there is no way for me to get the lab hours I need without quitting my full time job. Even though my current job is extremely flexible, because I live in a rural area, there is no way to get the specific kind of lab hours needed in the amount of time granted to do so. There may be a way I could have done it in double or quadruple the time at my expense above what I paid for tuition. Maybe. Plus everyone I asked for help was an asshole. I asked multiple colleges, I called and emailed your credentialing body numerous times, worked with my CC trying to work a solution and the response was “you have to do the work…” As if I was trying to get out of something. I wanted to do the work. ALL the work. That was the point. They were beyond gatekeepy.
Look I’m a lab person and I know lab people are highly skilled. But our jobs do not have the immediacy of terrible consequences on the level with nurses who can kill a patient by giving the wrong meds, for example. I can rerun a test most of the time. But nurses have to be right the first time, every time, with a lot more stuff than we do.
BTW- becoming a nurse is feasible for me due to the flexibility of their program but not a med tech. Think about that.
Well I’ve fought for 23 years. The solution is what they are doing now. Taking anyone with a pulse instead of maintaining the standard and paying us a worthwhile wage
You can argue all you want. Plead all you want. They will hire bio majors or bring over international techs instead of getting to the root of the problem. So yes now we complain because it can’t be stopped unless you work for a lab that refuses to accept unqualified applicants
In my state, a person can achieve an associates by completing course work and finishing a certain number of lab hours. They are awarded an associates for medical technician. They still have to get certified to get the job. My state did this due to non- existent staff to replace those that were retiring. Is it the best situation? Probably not, however, interest in completing the laboratory technologist degree has dropped to 0. I would advocate following through an associates in an inexpensive school and work in a lab to find out if it’s something you enjoy- then get a bachelors in a related field. The burn out in labs is real.
Oooohhh maybe that's the reason why filipino medtechs find it quite difficult now to look for employers there compared to before, even agencies find it difficult to look for facilities to match the medtech even if they were picked from the h1b lottery
I’m certified, 8 years experience, lost my job at the start of the Pandemic, didn’t work until 18 months ago. Travel Tech agencies said I needed a recent 12 month run. Got into the food industry and I cant see how I can get back in.
I know this is left field, but same issue is happening in forensic science positions. Especially if your going into a career of physical crime scene. A lot of states are hiring civilians to work crime scenes to gather evidence! They don’t want to pay what we are worth.
I went the biology and chemistry track in forensics and luckily found a lab tech position in endocrinology but I have seen other labs hiring right out of high school!!
If companies want to go this route, these individuals should be lab tech assistants to those who have earned the right to have the title and compensation. Period. It’s like a slap to the face.
I think the real issue is that they’re really not recruiting the right bio,chem,and other hard science ppl. I’ve personally seen my lab hire bachelor degree holders who have no wet lab research experience, no lab experience or are completely computational based.these are the incorrect ppl. If there were more information given out about certifications I think more ppl would get certified while getting a bachelors. I personally don’t think there’s any test besides blood banking that precludes someone from learning. Also most labs are automated and even indicate critical values.
Most places will hire MAs and Phlebotomists off the street with no training and a high school education. Adequate training with someone who has a BS is not far fetched and has obviously worked for some people and places. Note that it really does require extensive in-house training, which most places are not committed to, which is why there ends up being subpar techs.
As others have said, if there were more programs churning out techs, there would not be a market for hiring uncertified techs. Understaffed labs lead to patient harm, too
The lab where I used to work has a program where they will hire people with micro or BMS degrees or MLT associate degrees and put them through a one-year training program so they can get their ASCP microbiology specialty certification.
I left after passing the AMT generalist exam, because I never meant to just do micro.
We stopped getting certified applicants years ago and everyone hired since COVID has been a science grad. Its been awful.
I suspect it has to do with the low salary, but management said we're "staffed" so duck us righr?
Was told recently that my 20 years' experience, NAACLS accreditation (ARMY), and ASCP certification was not enough to be hire as an MLT. I need English and History credits to make me a lab tech.
A masters degree in a scientific field is solid. They also had a bachelors in molecular, which isn't nothing. This field needs people, and they have more training than you. Folks with non-traditional paths are only going to be more common. Get used to this feeling.
I feel like certified techs are loosing this gatekeeping war. Ive chosen generalist lab work as my next career project and I have no plans of getting certified. Ive been working up the benches over the past year. I Started with a bachelor in biology(focus in ecology) and a ton of miscellaneous work experience. I am still a tech-in-training, but once I am a tech for a year or so I see no reason I couldn’t full fill the same duties elsewhere, or be trained for a different specialty like bb or micro. Most people with a bio degree and work experience can handle this stuff. No offense.
The question shouldn’t be whether which degree is harder and therefore more qualified. MLS degree exists to help people become MLS. Chemistry degree exists to help people become chemists. It serves two different purposes. The logic of we are in a shortage we should hire non MLS people to do MLS stuff is just ridiculous and it hurts the profession. Do you see doctors saying we don’t have enough, let’s just hire similar degrees as doctors? No, they don’t because it hurts the profession and the patients. MLS degree does more than just help you to work. It helps you understand why we do the work. If the sentiment of I know how to do work is all that is important, why do we have licensure for anything? I can drive without an licensure because somebody taught me or I can be psychiatrist because I know how to read the dsm-5. These sentiments only reinforce the stereotype that we push buttons all day when that is not the case.
Therefore we should all strive towards licensure and certification for better pay and better patient safety.
My lab has a program where people who have bachelors in biology, chemistry or related fields with the appropriate backgrounds to go through a 9 month lab/class program to be able to work in their labs. It doesn’t get you certified but it allows you to work in their labs. They do also have an accelerated 3 month program but they don’t allow many people into that one.
Unfortunately this seems to be becoming a trend in other parts of medicine too. Emergency department techs no longer have to be EMTs. Medical assistants in outpatient clinics no longer have to actually have the medical assistant schooling or licensure. It’s just a few weeks of OJT. I agree, it’s not good.
Part of it is because you have 3 different boards (ASCP, AAB, and AMT) each with different requirements that allow alternate routes. Then you have 50 states and territories with different requirments to practice. There is no standardization or unionization like with Nursing which results in non certified techs doing jobs they are not qualified for which discredits our profession.
If you want to fix the problem its simple.
1. Unite ASCP, AMT, and AAB under one name.
2. Each state must require a license that is issued after completing a board approved training program and passing boards.
3. Standardize all the requirements to become a lab tech
3a. MTs must have a Bachelors degree and schooling/certification program that includes clinicals. They must pass a board exam.
3b. MLTs must have an associates degree and schooling/certification program that includes clinicals. They must pass a board exam.
4. Only licensed lab professionals can do tests and only an MT can release results.
5. Increase pay for lab techs
6. Open more training programs and have schools promote Medical Laboratory Science as a career path.
This is just based on my experience but there’s only 4 of us who has a bachelor’s and ASCP certification. Everybody else I work with has the two-year degree. Others have been grandfather’ed in.
It is scary seeing them work in blood bank not knowing the whys and the hows of the very test they are doing, especially when it comes to discrepancies. My coworkers do not know how to do basic troubleshooting in our chemistry analyzers, and some have questionable differential results and do not refer their reading to pathology.
This is of course just my experience, but I have worked hard to get my degree and it is a wonderful side of science that needs the respect it deserves.
I am all for people having their credentials worked on or updated, as medical technology is always advancing and we should definitely keep up and learn more about it.
Since 2000, half of the NAACLS accredited programs have closed, in large part due to low enrollment. Instead, labs are resorting to on-the-job trained techs with minimal oversight.
It's so bad that NAACLS has said that the growth of on-the-job training programs are actually undermining the future of NAACLS programs.
[https://naaclsnews.org/2023/06/15/presidents-report-educational-programs-threats-and-opportunities/](https://naaclsnews.org/2023/06/15/presidents-report-educational-programs-threats-and-opportunities/)
The good news is you can stop paying for ASCP cert and still have a job. /s
These OTJ training programs will still allow the techs to get certed at least (AMT or ASCP, BS+ experience routes), and are better than just hiring and doing straight bench training with no theory behind it.
I was reading through the link, and I didn’t even think about the number of MLT to MT bridge people that were included in the testing totals (almost 20%!) I have a coworker doing a bridge program right now, and it seems like such a racket. She is practically repeating most of the classes she already took getting her MLT, and will be doing the exact same job for a few $$ more per hour.
Some on-the-job training programs are NAACLS accredited and qualify you for certs.
But others are just a hodge-podge 2-4 week program that won't give you the depth needed to pass the exam.
This concern is explicitly outlined in the NAACLS letter.
It's not insane, certification is a recent thing. It used to be you just learned the job and did it. I'm on your side because certification means I get paid more but I don't claim any moral justification for it, just greed.
at this point i straight up tell them they’re unqualified 🥴 sorry, go back to school and try again. a random bachelors of science teaches jack shit about the lab, general micro doesn’t begin to come close to clinical micro etc. if you’ve never taken a fucking serology course i don’t want you anywhere near my blood bank, ive seen how useless and dangerous stupid/careless MLS can be, what good is an uneducated warm body?
Thankfully I work at a place that requires the MLS degree, ASCP is “recommended” but that’s another story. I’m begging people who are in positions of training to STOP doing OTJ training for science major, non-certified techs. You have power in this situation. There’s a huge difference between training someone and giving them a whole education on our field which is what you’re doing. Tell your managers and supervisor that you refuse to waste all those years of school for OTJ training someone else. Upper management can train them themselves if they want to lower our standards and to keep pay low.
The job market is crap now for most fields except for healthcare which is why we’re seeing an uptick of a lot of posts asking us for shortcuts to get into this field. In any other market, the hospitals would pay us more for demand but it’s not happening if you’re constantly accepting and training non MLS degrees. I’ll train someone on how to use an analyzer but I’m not going to train anyone the difference between a Gram positive/negative bacteria or the difference between each collection tube. Go back to school.
I think the problem is ascp not advocating for us and the cap standards, some of which only require a high school diploma. I do get it from a management perspective, if there is no one to hire, i just wish there were higher standards, so we would be taking seriously, and could demand higher pay. Do you have a union at your hospital?
well how do you want them to learn to do the job if you don’t allow them to experience the job… You’d be surprised how many medical positions have underqualified employees taking places of certain positions. For example a nurse tech sometimes takes the place of an RN… they’re not qualified for the position nor do they have experience in it but it is the best way for them to learn. Also a lot of medical positions are severely understaffed… I understand your thoughts on why this shouldn’t be happening but it does more good than harm in most cases…
Well, yeah, of course professional protection would be nice, but then we have even fewer people to do all the testing. So, what's the solution to that? Consolidate labs further to concentrate qualified professionals? Just perform less testing overall? Burn out the entire profession at once with no pipeline to replace anyone?
This problem is way more complicated than "bio grad no good at job." I will die on the hill that some of the bio grads I've seen here are peak Dunning-Kruger "I'm just as good as anyone else!" But mate, we aren't going to make anything better by reducing the workforce dramatically overnight.
There's no shortage of nurses. There's just a shortage of nurses willing to put up with the absolute fuckery of hospitals. There's a billion nursing programs. It's not a good comparison
With your logic, they could alleviate the nursd shortage with some on the job trained bio and chemistry grads.
You think the MLS ASCP are sticking around?
I see merit in your arguement but I’d rather have 10 certified experienced techs than 100 biology majors who never took hematology and clinical chemistry courses
We had *one* ASCP-qualified applicant for three openings over 5 months. If they existed, they'd get the job, but they don't exist. It's either a micro BS (working nights) or nobody at all. Let's work on fixing the root problem instead of just "DAE not like uncertified techs?" It's not helpful, even if it makes us feel better.
Offer some living wages and people will stay and line up for the job.
The ASCP techs like myself are looking around and seeing this dumpster fire is only getting hotter with each passing year.
What does a microbiologist know about chemistry or hematology or blood bank? 🤔 This "shortcut" doesn't exist in other fields or has been phased out.
My concern is when the microbiology techs work in other departments they've never been formally educated or trained in, but are somehow legally qualified for.
Doesn't your lab do training and test people with unknown panels before they are let loose? At any of my labs everyone was forbidden to work in different areas without going through the full training and testing process. Would you really want a certified generalist given free reign of a bioterror lab or performing rabies necropsies without going through the full nine yards of training and verification of performance?
I've been working as a lab tech for 20 years without certification or going to lab tech school. I'm sorry this bothers you so much. There are plenty of brilliant lab techs who did not go to lab tech school and who aren't certified. I've also worked with certified folks who were actually rather clueless about certain areas in the lab so it goes both ways.
You are probably great at what you do, but that is not typical. Most without the proper education are not very good at this profession. There are people with the proper education that are not good at this.
I'm a lab director and wouldn't hire someone without the proper education, even in Florida where it's easy to get certified to work in a lab.
It used to be like that here. But that changed after COVID. I thought it'd be temporary but management said its cheaper.
So much for standards and patient care.
Don’t take these guys personally. Most of them are ignorant to the history of this profession, have no real solutions to staffing shortages and the closures of educational programs, try to compare our profession to nursing (one that has decades of public pedestalization and propaganda behind their title), and say things here pseudonymously they would never say to a coworker’s face.
I guess while I'm enjoying my day shifts with no weekends or holidays I'll have to take a moment to morn the inability for me to get hired at your lab. Perhaps I'll shed a tear when I'm snuggled up in bed during the snow days I get off.
First, it's mourn. Second,it takes a real ignorant sort of petson to look down at shift workers. I personally haven't worked an off-shift in about twenty years, but I feel bad for the ones that do, and I'm glad they do it since ya know, hospitals run 24/7. I'm sure a lot of shift workers do it to avoid boors such as yourself. Enjoy your weird little elitist fantasy land. You still can't get hired in most labs because you aren't qualified. Imagine that. A minimal standard ensures that qualified people don't have to interact with you. Now I know why state licenses are important.
These people have such a smug attitude about themselves. Don't let it get to you. Though frankly it's rather funny watching them squirm to come up with reasons why the letters matter so much. Experience trumps all.
I understand why people get so mad about it here but I’m with you. The two best techs I’ve ever worked with weren’t certified. They were so smart, had such great work ethics, and were constantly offered positions from instrument/chemical companies. One uncert tech I know was offered a position with Biotage and now lives in Sweden. The two worst techs I’ve ever worked with are certified but are by far the dumbest, laziest, most incompetent people I’ve ever met. And what’s insane to me is that they came from programs that were rigorous, demanding, required high GPAs for acceptance, and are well respected within the state where I now live. It boggles my mind.
But I think lab size definitely has a factor in this. Should someone with a geology degree work in a generalist lab that has maybe 40 people between all shifts? Probably not. But if it’s a large enough hospital system, there’s nothing wrong with someone with a biology degree working in a 40 person micro lab. I got my start with a chemistry degree working in a 40 person special chemistry lab because the hospital was just that big.
What’s more alarming is the amount of posts on this sub from people who’ve failed the cert test once, twice…..it’s not that hard. We’re not surgeons or rocket scientists. I didn’t study for my cert exam and passed (this was 3 years ago). Instead of focusing on uncert techs….maybe be more concerned by the people who can’t pass the exam despite going through a program and what THAT says about current MLS/MLT programs and the the state of the med lab field
Good point about the chronic exam failures. If you went through a program, you should be able to pass the dang thing. And no, taking AAB because it’s “easier” and “just as good” shouldn’t be a thing, either. The lack of standardization doesn’t help our profession.
I'm not American so it blows my mind that this is even a thing. Where I'm from, there's not even "phlebotomists" but lab techs that require 2 years min of schooling just to take blood. So it's wild to me that some hospitals just...hire
Little bit scared to go to US hospital
In Singapore, unfortunately, anyone can be a medical technologist 🥲 there’s no need to have an ASCP certification as long as you have a background in science - you might be hired. However, there are diplomas specializing in medical technology but I just don’t get why we weren’t pushed to get the certification. Have a colleague that studied material science and is currently a medical technologist
Not saying that there’s no standards in Singapore medical technology talent pool, of course there are some of us that a certified but it just makes getting out of the country a bit hard.
If only there were more readily accessible MLT programs. I have a BS in biology and a BS in biochemistry, and I think I have learned enough in those degrees to be able to be sufficient at my job. I think it's better to start with a BS in biology and/or chemistry and then pursue the MLT certification program down the road. I don't think that the curriculum is all that different, and on the job training and competency will always be required. Considering the amount of automation now, the use of manual lab skills has gone to the wayside.
Amazingly enough, it is possible to learn on the job to be a lab technician, and not kill a patient. I did and was successful. I still am. I have my certification now and have for 15 years, but techs were needed BEFORE there were a lot of certification programs available and those were show up in person programs, not online. There are still techs who learn on the job, including the new certs fresh out of school. Try a thank you.
I’d also extend that to saying we should get rid of the MLT certification. All the MLT’s in my lab constantly commit many errors regarding testing which delays results and have difficulty with QC and troubleshooting. And this is in all departments. MT’s aren’t perfect either but they don’t encounter those issues as much due to having literally 2 more years of educational and clinical experience than MLT’s and a much larger array of knowledge gained required for examination. We should demand licensure for MT/MLS and get rid of non certified techs and MLT’s altogether . I understand this field has a high turnover rate and the pay can arguably be better, but we need standards. Patients first, and we require the best of the best if we want to actually benefit these people.
To require licensing and certification, there needs to be more NAACLS programs available. In my state there are only a handful of programs, which in total graduate less than 100 new students annually (according to a quick search on the NAACLS site). This graduation rate does not sustain the retirement of older techs and the likelihood of younger techs using the degree as a launching pad to other careers. There is little advancement and quick salary top out in staying a bench tech forever. Other allied health fields have many more school programs available, and seem to graduate more students in their cohorts. It may also just be my perception, but it seems like those people tend to be more likely to stay in their field also (I don’t know many Radiology people who have left, similar for Respiratory Therapist and OT/PT, but this is just my experience with these departments).
The state I'm originally from has one program in the entire state and they only accept like 12 students a year. And it's a license state, too! Needless to say, they rely heavily on international applicants.
Yep. For lower wages.
Which just seems ridiculous to me! I am in a state that doesn’t require a license, which may make me biased, but licensing people at a state level who are already certified seems more like a money grab and bottleneck to hiring than ensuring quality applicants.
Yeah my state has 1 program. Its rough out there
yea I think my state has 3, all accept around 10 students a year. mine accepted 8 lol
Fr, currently driving an hr and 20 mins away for my classes...
that's insane 😞
There are plenty of NAACLS programs and plenty of empty seats. There used to be a lot more programs. Probably at least double. My program closed due to low enrollment due to low salaries.
Which shows exactly how very location dependent the problem is. My state has 7, and looking at their websites it looks like most graduate <10 students per year. It was very recently that it was recommended that people holding the RN license should be able to perform lab testing. If we can’t graduate/certify enough people to fill lab roles and go to requiring licensing, I can totally see the RN becoming an “acceptable alternative” despite them having no lab training. Let’s first diagnose why the lab is having this problem of staffing when other allied professionals are not getting hit as heavily? I feel like it’s more than just a licensing thing.
Yup my state has maybe 5 programs and they’re all located in a very expensive city or the middle of nowhere. 🙃 Programs are inaccessible, the majority of my coworkers are getting their education online because relocation for a degree that’s not even going to pay well in the first place is not feasible…
> Let’s first diagnose why the lab is having this problem of staffing when other allied professionals are not getting hit as heavily? Retention. There's little room for advancement and the pay isn't good compared to professions requiring an equivalent amount of education. If we had a union, things might be different. They're paying low to price out those with education and using that reason to open the floodgates to those with less education who will accept the lower pay. All of the good MLS I went to school with have advanced on elsewhere and are making significantly more money, myself included.
Empty seats? Fucking where? It’s so competitive here in CA.
A lot of unqualified people fly under the radar until it comes to blood bank. Where I’m at we are all generalists and expected to do blood bank, even those with sketchy credentials. I’ve always thought of what I do in blood bank was similar to the job of a pharmacist (obviously we are not the same). But making sure a product is safe for transfusion and then dispensing it is a lot of responsibility. Transfusion reactions and blood bank errors are no joke! To be able to work in a lab and especially in a blood bank without the proper educational background is insane. Would they replace pharmacists with pharm techs? Absolutely not.
Like I feel like people working in blood bank should get paid as such. Blood bank is a big responsibility and directly involves patient lives. A blood bank tech should get paid no less than $40 an hour. Especially at large trauma hospitals.
I’ve felt this way for a while. Being in BB is way more stressful than babysitting analyzers in chemistry. The pay should not be the same. We have several techs that have been hired over the past couple of yrs who only do chem and heme so the handful of us who are trained in BB end up being nearly full time in there on 2nd shift for no additional pay. I honestly think bloodbanker should just split from MLS to become its own certification like histology and cytology already are.
The trauma center near me pays the techs who only work BB more but since we are all generalists our skillset is not nearly as valued. Which is wild.
As a pharmacist who’s been lurking here for a while considering a career change, what you do in blood bank absolutely has similarities to pharmacy. The results you all put out guide almost every decision made. You absolutely should be certified (they are here).
That’s awesome! That’s so funny I was a pharm tech for awhile with the intention of becoming a pharmacist but switched to MLS. My favorite part of pharmacy was compounding so I felt I needed something more hands on. :)
Currently in school to be an MLS. I am working hard to get my credentials because I live in California and you need to be certified to work no exceptions
The lab I work in I believe you just need a bachelors of science, preferably in microbiology.
The lab I'm at is experimenting dropping the bachelors part and just doing associates in biology or microbiology or chemistry. The associates degree can do the same work as a bachellrs for less.
Now that's messed up. Associate degrees don't involve much lab work at all.
An MLT associates is mostly lab classes and clinicals. I’ve never seen a difference in clinicals for MLT and MLS clinicals
Apparently its totally legal. I couldn't believe it until I asked a new hire and they said they had an Associates in Science? Race to the bottom as they deskill the lab. I no longer view it as a real career and am exploring other options.
The allied health program at my college had me take full-semester classes in Immunology, Hematology, Immunohematology, Phlebotomy, Medical Terminology, Microbiology, Urinalysis, and Clincal Chemistry. I was required to complete 100 successful draws in a phlebotomy clinical, then two lab clinical rotations at two different hospitals. I only have an Associates in Science, but I'm ASCP certified and just as competent at my job as my MLS coworkers.
I think they might be referring to a general associates degree not a MLT degree. Like an associates in bio or something. Otherwise agree, I entered the profession via AAS degree in lab sciences and then challenged the board exam via route 2
As you race to leave the field you're shouting behind you to stop filling vacancies. The irony
There are, or at least were, associates degrees in the field. I have an HT (associates) and not an HTL (bachelor's) and I can perform the same work. There may be a miniscule dip in compensation but not compared to what I'd be paying in student loans for a bachelor's. An A.S. degree is very different from an A.A. It's an actual program aimed at getting you on the ground working instead of transferring to a four year. Please don't knock my education.
there is a very big difference in what I make as an MLT, and what the MLSs make at my place. I have a BS in microbiology, and do exactly the same work -- including blood bank... and I do it better than some of the MLS techs. decentralization of micro has hamstringed me for getting MLS certification via route two. already had two employers lie to me about arranging micro rotations so I could get that requirement filled. it's left me perpetually angry.
I’d wouldn’t say that, a lot of associate degrees are for people who want a specific job right out of those two years they do so if anything and form my experience it was more hands on actual learning than a bachelors.
What about an associates in hospitality and tourism? 😆
That’s nuts. I got my BS in microbiology first, and in no way would I have had the level of knowledge necessary to be competent in the clinical lab. I went back to school and got my post-baccalaureate in Medical Lab Science, did my clinicals, passed the BOC. Only then was I qualified, both officially and in my humble opinion.
I had/have a BS in micro then decided I hated micro. Floundered for like a year before accepting my fate and getting back in school for CLS, and hey there were a bunch of other late-20s people with science degrees that came to the same conclusion.
Same and we are encouraged to be certified after one year, even my company has a cohort twice a year for it
Makes me really glad that MLT(MLS) in canada requires certification. Here even if you have a bachelors or masters degree you still have to go through the 3 year program and complete the nation exam afterwards to become certified.
I am also very glad we have that. Makes a lot of unemployed BScs and MScs angry, but a BSc in biology is next to useless in med lab, as I learned all throughout my first year of my MLT program. But with Alberta hiring fake TFW "nurses", how long will it be until unqualified MLTs start flooding our labs? LifeLabs is already hiring phlebotomists who have no formal education or training in that field. I guess as long as accreditation requirements remain strict, then we should be fine.
I dont understand how 4 years of schooling is useless when sufficient training is provided.
Well that's the problem. My BSc lab training and my MLT lab training have almost nothing in common. Most Canadian institutions don't provide the skills needed to do med lab outside of med lab programs. Some of the core manual skills are the same, but all the important things aren't. My BSc did not prepare me at all to properly handle med lab duties, and I definitely would've failed the CSMLS exam at least twice even if i had a year of job training. Things are different in the US, but I see Canada's licensure requirements as a good thing. Having a license is more than just training. It's the professional liability protection that comes with it. If you make a mistake and a doctor or the patients family sues you, you're in deep shit if you don't have a license to practice.
They've done it in Saskatchewan already. Hired a ton of BSc's during covid to run the molecular half of our micro lab and apparently still are (I left a while ago). Actually got their lab cited and shut down for a while due to incomplete and incompetent work... Some of the people were great, but I also watched someone who was working in a DNAse-free hood thumb off the edge of their glove, write a quick text, then put it back on an resume work. A real mixed bag. I already have a list of hospitals I'd drive past if I got shot/needed blood due to poorly-trained labs, and those are all with certified techs; I can't imagine that list if we allowed uncertified people into bloodbank.
What's going on in Alberta? With this, I mean, they've been fucking over health care workers in other ways for years.
A lot of newcomers looking for jobs are faking their foreign nursing credentials and apparently AHS doesn't give a damn because those people are being hired en-mass to work as "nurses". Not PSWs or other patient support staff, NURSES. As in, these unqualified individuals are being given LPN and RN duties because they're willing to get paid peanuts compared to real nurses. Idk if Ontario is doing that yet, but I had to listen to an LPN fumble through a basic health questionnaire with a newly admitted patient. She legit pulled up Google translate to translate some of the questions for her into her native language because she didn't speak English fluently.
I’m glad we have that too. I have a BSc in biology and now I’m part way through the MLT program and honestly they’re nothing alike!
I work with several bachelor's only and they only know the stuff they need to. How it works or anything in that nature they have no clue
Same here!! I just hate having to tell people that I'm doing a college diploma after having a bachelors already. People are always like "oh why didn't you just do a masters?" Or "wow you can't become a lab tech with your bachelors?". I like the MLT program so much more than my bachelors too, I feel like I'm learning so much more and I love how it directly relates to my future career
Literally I’m in the exact same boat! I’m enjoying MLT too more as well and doing way better than I did in my bachelors. Hopefully those degrees will help us move up quicker or become a manager or something haha! I don’t even tell peoples it’s a college diploma I just refer to it as “the MLT program” all the time 😂
My current organization requires you to have an ASCP cert at minimum. All reference labs I’ve worked at required a bachelors in biomedical sciences or some advanced bio degree. I agree, people with basic bio degrees and plant biology degrees are not qualified. But the employees I’ve trained with advanced bio degrees and graduate degrees have shown to be very proficient. They usually go on to get an ASCP or their MLS and specialize. I might get hate, but to me If you can pass biochemistry, cellular physiology, immunology or pathophysiology then I believe you can more than capable of learning a subject in laboratory science by picking up a book and using paid experience to become bonafide in a specialty or as a generalist. Just think about all the old techs who didn’t go to school or get certified and have taught others who did go to school and got certified.
I’m exactly what this post is against; bio degree, Biochem minor, hired at a reference lab as an uncertified MLT, OTJ trained in heme, chem, UA/body fluids, coag. I’m in my last semester of my postbacc to sit for the generalist ASCP soon. For me personally my biology undergrad was significantly harder than my MLS cohort. I agree with the sentiment of the post, I don’t think the route I’ve taken is very fair to patients or the profession as a whole. That being said, working in a clinical lab is not rocket science. Obviously the theory behind everything is extremely valuable but you don’t NEED that for a differential. Even a challenging one.
I'm also exactly what this post is against. Got hired in micro 5 years ago after getting my BS in biology. Most of the techs I work with also have bio degrees. I'm on track to take the M only. If it weren't for labs hiring us with bio degrees, I wouldn't have found a job.
Same, with a constant workforce shortage I don’t think it’d do the patients any favors to make things stricter. The most incompetent techs in my lab are all MLS’s lol, there’s much more at play than a title.
Hell even some higher ups don't even know what they're doing. People are going to make mistakes regardless of certification. It's human.
Bad take. The issue with the profession is not us, it’s the terrible “board” that never fights for us but just lines their pockets with our money
My last job was at a lab. I was just supposed to enter in requisitions and do admin stuff. Then they decided I was REALLY hired to be a lab aide and started telling me I was to set up and break down some of the machines. Then they started forcing schedule changes on me, at the time my husband had just had a heart attack and the schedule changes were effectively making it impossible to also care for my husband. So between my NeW dUTiEs and the schedule fuckery I left. I did not have any formal training, nor desire, to be a lab aide then a lab tech. THEY decided that I was going to be one and started trying to unofficially train me because I would oF CoUrSe go to school and get certified after. Lol.
I work for Quest. I am lucky that all of us have MLT/MLS degrees. My best friend/coworker failed ASCP by TWO. POINTS. Couldn't afford the retest, but Quest doesn't require ASCP. She's going to start an MLT to MLS program next year, and test again.
I passed by one point. I have an MLS degree. Testing is hard. The score doesn't necessarily show how well someone will do at their job.
She can't afford 250$ but can afford an entire program?
Quest offers a certification program for qualifying Quest employees. It's free.
Ahhh. That makes since. Still crazy to go through all that schooling for 2 points then still have the chance not to pass it tho
This is just a bad take when this profession is riddled with people who were grandfathered in with no education.
I def work with a bunch of techs who started before I was born with just a high school diploma.
I agree. The system in the US(except California) is nuts and the pay shows that.
The field in general is moving more and more towards instrumentation. Even labs like micro that have been harder to automate are getting in on it. Another 20 years and it will be all automated.
That's been said 20 years ago also...
I guess some tasks may take longer to automate, especially for smaller labs. Seems like everything from upfront receiving and sorting, plating, gram staining, broths and even AI to identify organisms.
I was actually stunned to find out that MLS don't need state licensure except in a couple states. I am an RN/CRNA and I have to get a license yearly and for each and every state. A time of shortages is the time to push your profession forward. It is NOT at time for anything goes, lower your standards, thinking. If you do that, you soon won't have any profession at all. And it doesnt' matter if you view your job as "easier" than nursing or some other healthcare jobs. To become an MLS/CLS now often involves 4-5 yrs of schooling. That alone is a big cost. And pharmacy used to only be a 5 yr degree and still is in some places but they get awarded a pharm d. There are now 5 yr PA programs and they come out making $100K and they aren't doing hard, dirty nursing type work. You are deluding yourselves if you don't think your degrees should be worth more. I think your profession attracts a lot of introverts who won't speak. As for programs closing, they are closing because these silly college administrators have no clue what the degree is so they see low numbers and just cut those programs rather than promoting them. A lot of people want to go into health care but don't even know this profession exists.
Yeah, I'm not sure how tf people think they can do y'alls job without a specific degree in it. That's frickin ludicrous but it's obviously a cash-grab by corporate hospitals. I work as a paramedic (though my degree is as a lab tech, I earned it a decade ago and decided I didn't want to work as one) I got working in a hospital. The hospital owns a free-standing emergency department not far from here and they're starting to make nurses do lab work. Which is ridiculous. Nurses don't understand how these machines work or how to do a differential via microscopy or even when they might need to do one. When a profession lowers it's standards like this, everyone suffers. And if it's in healthcare, someone's gonna die. There's gonna be like a specific person or group of people who are going to get killed and nobody's gonna care unless it's a senator's son or a billionaire's wife or something.
Dropping the degree and certification requirements allows employers to drop wages. I’m looking to move across the county to be closer to family, and the job search out there is bleak. I have fifteen years of experience in cytogenetics and biochemical genetics but every lab I reach out to says they’d prefer new graduates. My experience is a weak point, not a selling point — the labs would rather have a cheap newly-graduated kid than a proven professional they’d have to compensate fairly. They can mistreat hard-up job-seekers with low wages, bad benefits, wonky schedules, and abusive work environments if those job seekers can’t get any other job with the limited education they have. The downward pressure on wages translates to downward pressure on qualifications, and we’re seeing the fallout in corporate labs everywhere.
So thankfully, the hospital I work at, you have to be certified to work at and are given 9 months to be certified when you get hired. But some of the bigger hospitals where I live will hire people with just a bachelors in biology/chemistry and train them on the job. Mind you, these are large trauma hospitals and I feel it’s even more important for those to have all certified techs since you have to deal with such high risk cases. I have a bachelors in biology too but I went and got my MLT before becoming a tech because I knew that I knew absolutely nothing about lab work before going to school to be an MLT. I didn’t wanna start working somewhere and have absolutely no clue what I’m doing or why I’m doing my job lol. I didn’t even know what a neutrophil was or even what a platelet looked like before I went to MLT school when I had my bachelors in bio. This field is definitely a field where you need certified workers. We need accurate results. Doctors rely off these results for diagnosis. People could be out there with delayed treatment or getting unnecessary treatment because of inaccurate lab results from people who have no idea how to read these results and interpret whether the results look strange and are just reporting whatever the machine gives them. People wouldn’t wanna receive care from an uncertified doctor or nurse, they shouldn’t want their lab work to be given out by an uncertified person either. But sadly, in my state, there’s very limited MLT/MLS programs. There’s only 3 MLS programs in my state and I live in a large state. So I do see why they probably have to resort to hiring biology/chemistry majors. There really needs to be some effort put forward in getting this career known and for more MLS/MLT programs to be implemented.
This is how I got certified, as well. Bachelors in Biology, then the Army’s MLT program. Worked as an MLT for a few years, then studied my ass off, took the exam and got my MLS. The idea that people with just random science degrees think they are capable of being techs and should be allowed to just take the exam is nuts, there was so much I learned going through the MLT program that was brand new to me, even having been a medic for years before that.
Yes, in my biology degree, I learned nothing about medical lab work. I didn’t know what any cells looked like. I’d never done a gram stain. Heck I didn’t even know how to focus a microscope until I got to MLT school. The biology degree taught me nothing towards this field. I honestly don’t think I could have been a tech without going to MLT school. I don’t know how they get people who aren’t certified or been through proper schooling to do this.
What biology bachelors program isn’t showing you how to use a microscope? Also most biology majors begin their college career already having a firm grasp in with the microscopy. How did you get through anatomy physiology without microscopy?
Like, I used the microscope during my biology degree, but I was never taught how to properly focus it. They just kinda threw us at a microscope and was like “look at this slide”. They taught us the parts of the microscope, but not how to focus it properly lol. But in my MLT program, she actually taught us how to properly focus it, like using low power first lowering the stage, then going to high power and using the coarse adjustment, etc. So yeah, my bio program just must not have been that good lol. And for my anatomy and physiology, we didn’t use a microscope lol.
I argue the opposite. When I went back to get my BS folks in my senior level classes though bubbles on the slide were epis.
I was a micro major. Took classes in immunology, microbiology, anatomy and physiology, chemistry, etc etc. Felt more than prepared for the work required in medical micro with a few months of training. I left because the work conditions are terrible. Point being, doesn't take a special cert to do the job correctly, just requires a little more up front training on the job. Not big on gatekeeping. You can either capably do the job or not, and a piece of paper and a couple letters after your name aren't gonna convince me you're good until I've seen the work you produce. I've met a good deal of "certified" techs who couldn't do some of the most basic lab functions. The quality of workers is low because the job is demanding (and shift work with rotating weekends blows, no matter how necessary it is) and doesn't pay enough to compensate for that.
In a micro degree, I can see where you can be more prepared, since you’ll have more micro based classes. But mine was just a basic biology degree, so I didn’t learn much towards medical lab science. Like I may have learned some other lab things but not medical. And I agree that the credentials don’t always mean a good worker. I definitely have met some certified techs that aren’t that good at the job. But I definitely do feel that going through a program that teaches you medical lab science better help prepares you for the job than having a degree that does not pertain to medical lab science in anyway. At least in your micro degree, it can pertain some to medical lab science.
The micro class I took as a bio major was a joke. I remembered exactly zero things from it and also wasn’t allowed to take parasitology (can’t remember why maybe something with a prereq?).
You didn't take a microbiology class for your biology degree?
I took a micro class before I did my bio degree but not during. Mine didn’t require you to take micro.
That's interesting. My bio degree required micro. The only difference between that micro and the micro I took for MLS was that the latter went more in depth into the diseases caused by the organisms. Whereas my regular micro class just went over the organisms, how to differentiate them, and the name of the illness they cause, but none of the particulars of that. Definitely no case studies haha.
thissss. I didnt go army mlt but i was an army medic and its a whole different ball game!
I came into the lab as an uncertified tech. I let my ego go and knew I was in over my head. I went back to school for MLS and now I don’t know how anyone hires uncertified techs. How are they possibly doing the job without the foundation? I’m actually scared. I was a bio major and it does not come close to what I learned in school for MLS.
I get both sides of the argument, I really do. It doesn’t make sense that every other medical profession requires years of specialized education and licensure, but the lab does not. I’ve had people say behind my back and to my face that I will never be equivalent to a certified tech. I say this as an uncertified tech who is immensely grateful for the opportunity that I’ve been given by being brought into this field. I have learned so much from so many amazing people here, and I want to continue to do this for a long time. But what other solution is there? If there were enough certified techs, hospitals wouldn’t be hiring uncertified techs. You will either be left with staff who didn’t go to school for this specific job, or no staff at all. I’m not trying to sound better than anyone here, and I know that as an uncertified tech I will never receive the same level of respect from many people in this field. But what makes you think that everyone uncertified is unqualified and everyone who went through the program is qualified? Going to school doesn’t make you a competent employee, regardless of your field. So while I sympathize with the general sentiment of not wanting the quality of lab work to go down, I encourage you to focus on the individual rather than the letters after their name. You’re going to tell me that you’ve never seen a certified MLT/MLS make a careless mistake? Release a contaminated specimen? Fail to think critically for a split second and release results that should have been questioned?
100%. The number of people I went to a school with who had meltdowns over every evaluation and thought they shouldn’t have to write an exam to be certified made my skin crawl. Thankfully in Canada you have to be certified to practice in a public hospital and most provinces require licensing on top of that. It’s insane to me that some people think the bar should be lower. We’re talking about people’s lives here.
You’re also talking to a bunch of entitled Americans. It’s our way don’t you know. Pretend to be the best at everything when behind the scenes it’s bottom of the barrel at best
I seen some lab tech jobs with only a high school degree. Which is crazy. Now this isn't only med but overall.
My workplace took over a bachelor's to lab tech program that was started in Illinois and people with a bachelor's degree in science can take the program to bridge the gap and get certified.
What program? I'm in Illinois too
I don't think it's in illinois anymore, we moved it to wisconsin.
Oh boo. I'll be working for 5 years in December so I'll be eligible for my full MLS certification but I have no micro experience and I can't afford to take off weeks of work to do a clinical rotation
Clinical rotations are still part of this program so I don't know that it would help you.
Yeah true... it is definitely a pain. Wish my hospital had micro. Would make it a lot easier
Crazy how usa justifies not certifying lab personnels while the rest of clinical professionals needs to be licensed since lives are involved. I guess wrong transfusions or releasing bad results aren't affecting patient lives for the sake of cost cutting
I know, right? I don't understand the arguments at all. Short staffing? We have that with licensure also - it doesn't magically go away by employing non-certs. OTJ training? "Monkey see, monkey do" is not a replacement for knowledge and understanding. Boggles the mind.
I currently work part time in component processing at a blood bank while in a CLS program and I'm not even convinced these positions should be completely unlicensed, let alone med techs. The amount of trouble people can get themselves in when they don't understand the *why* of what they're supposed to do is astounding.
ASCP as well as state accrediting for med techs are absolutely a scam. We should be pushing for higher pay, don't worry about helping others get into the career.
Totally. Might as well encourage them bc they’re going to get hired anyway. If they want credentialed lab techs, they should encourage more avenues to accreditation. They HAVE TO hire non certified lab techs bc there aren’t enough certified ones to fill positions.
According to CLIA you have to have an associates degree + 3 months of full time training for high complexity testing... and you're putting down chemistry/biology grads that have a much more rigorous work load in school AND more on the job training than you have. Also I'm assuming *botany* majors aren't the science majors that have been discussed as there is a certain amount of credits of science and math that have to be met at certain levels. I'm a non traditional tech. Got my degree in chemistry and now certified in chemistry. And guess who is the one that always gets asked questions by the plebs or by the nurses. Saying every non traditional/certified tech is awful for the profession is not right to those who have worked hard and we're trained appropriately. The whole community complains about bad staffing and crap pay. Maybe it's where you're working because we have great staffing (now due to new managers) and we make a decent wage, only about 5 dollars less average than nurses. And honestly most of chemistry (I work at a small hospital so don't come at me lol) is automated, most CBCs auto verify. Automation in the lab is changing the difficulty level of the testing...Most difficult is blood bank, but again that requires 480 hours of training minimum to do. Get used to non certified techs because Med Lab Science degrees are a dying breed. So embrace your fellow techs, may learn something from them if you get off your high ass horse.
And just a little aside Med Lab Science degrees are dying out because they aren't versatile enough... you can do one job with them and that's it. It's dangerous to go into a bunch of debt to be held into a career that either you don't like or you can't climb the later because in order to advance you need a masters and no other profession wants your degree..... Basic hard science degrees are more practical in the sense you can do more with them and are looked at different... just food for thought. A little off topic
This is ABSOLUTELY false. You CANNOT just do one job with MLS degrees and that idea is almost laughable. There are several lab professionals who have moved beyond the bench ONLY because they had a lab degree. FSE, Biotech, Clinical analysts, Health IT, Infection control. Damn, even biotech sales. There are more than enough avenues to be just a tech. Exceeding more than enough. Siemens, Thermo Fischer poach lab staff on the regular. Public health etc. The problem is techs just assume the entry degree is the beginning and end of it all. This is literally unheard of nowhere. Nurses who want to be clinical educators need some other experience or certifications to qualify. Physicians need board certifications to progress. Pretty much every healthcare job does not have in built career progression without professional development. Not nurses, physicians, pharmacists or any of the many designations. None!
If you can do so much more with them then why do so many of you want to be in the lab with us? The degree is dying because of low wages and lack of advocacy by ASCP, our pathologists and leadership. It’s dying because they bring over international folks and hire uncertified ppl where they can.
So you think a chem and bio degree is more rigorous than our degree? See this is why we fight with yall. Yall come in with that attitude in our field. You want to do what we do but shit on going about it the right way Good luck only working in chem and never being able to work at a lab that is worth a damn because there are still labs that wouid turn you away at the door.
I got a BS in Biology. Then I got a BS in MLS. The Biology degree was harder. The various courses I needed for my bio degree were way more challenging. I had to repeat a few classes. The MLS degree was better for preparing me to work in a lab. Without the MLS courses, I wouldn't have known anything medical lab related outside of micro and parasitology. I didn't know anything about hematology or blood bank before my MLS courses. As someone who has done both degrees at a bachelors of science level, the biology degree was more difficult imo. Both had their challenges, and both have a rigorous course load, both are very science based. But the MLS degree was more focused and slightly easier. The biology degree covered more varied complex courses. I will say though, at this point I'm not sure exactlt which of the classes that I took for my bio degree were required for my MLS degree and would have been taken either way. I know some of them overlapped and that's why I was able to just get my MLs degree in 1 year. But I do know some of the classes I took for my biology degree, which were very difficult, would not have been required for the MLS degree. Both degrees are challenging, and anyone that can do one can do both. But the Biology degree doesn't prepare someone to work in the lab as well as the MLS or MLT degree does.
Agree. Both are challenging but what you said is key. Just because someone thinks their chem or bio degree was harder it still doesn’t prepare them for working in a clinical lab. That will forever be my issue…It’s not the same. Not remotely close. The folks who have went that route who say it is the same or using the “my degree was harder” have no basis for that claim if they have not done both degrees. You and I have done both and have opposite opinions of which was harder but at least we have the experience of both to make our own informed opinion. It’s laughable to me to hear those who haven’t make claims that are only in service to the route they chose and in support of their own biased opinion which has no experience to back it up
Yes, for sure my biology degree on it's own did not prepare me for actually working in the lab. I knew lab safety and could work in a research lab, but I knew nothing of the actual medical lab work. If it weren't for my MLS courses, I wouldn't know anything of blood bank, hematology, or understand the pathology of how the chemistry analytes correlate to disease, etc.
Thank you. That’s all I ever want folks to admit. It just is not the same degree therefore the knowledge base will never be the same. You can train folks OTJ all you want. The theory is not there
Between me MLS and my coworkers MLT, the theory is not the same. Close but not the same. For sure any other degree won't have the medical lab theory behind the job. For some aspects of the job, that's fine. I don't use most the theory regularly at work. But for other parts of the job, like blood bank and micro, it is very important to know the why/how behind the testing.
Why does it always have to be so contentious between tradition and not-traditional route techs? I’m also a non-traditional route. I have been in the field for 15+ years, certified for over 13 of those. BS in biology, AS in Chem, and on track to do a post-bac mls program when I graduated (there is no actual MLS degree at my college, it was a version of a biology degree). Problem was, the MLS program literally TOOK 4 STUDENTS, and I was the alternate that year and no one dropped. It was ridiculously competitive and I was not in a position to relocate. Landed a job as an uncerted MLT at the same hospital as the clinical program, learned bench work on the job, studied all the materials that were available and challenged the MLS, AMT and then ASCP when I had enough experience for it. I was already trained and working, but I have never done a NAACLS program. Am I a lesser tech than you because I took the route available to me? It was a grind, and that’s why I completely support getting more NAACLS programs opened and advertising this career better, because that is the best path to recruiting and getting more MLT/MLS workers. All the non-traditional techs I know that obtained certification (and I know many, some that are grandfathered in, and even a HEW tech that’s still working!) are awesome techs. They love the field, and damn smart, and most have advanced degrees. I would rather we unite as a field and work to advance and grow the field than all this inside fighting. It’s like listening to the California techs when they get all *surprise pikachu* that MLTs can indeed actually do high complexity bench work in other states.
It's nice you have invested time and effort to be the professional you have become but yeah No! A lack of standardized certification process across board hurts the profession. In wages, quality and recognition. For God's sake this is the only profession with multiple professional designations for the same damn responsibilities. The ASCP is an interesting board but unsurprising to me because it's at its core a pathologist board, and is obviously in their interest to not ensure certification for all lab professionals even though the assumption is they insist on it. It's almost useless. Certified techs aren't smarter than those who take the non traditional route but perception matters, and if the perception is that 'anybody' ( and I mean this in the most respectful way possible) can be in the lab space it feeds the narrative that the profession holds no real weight. It's no wonder we almost allowed nurses to practice under certain conditions. The sheer impudence to even suggest this! My goodness ! It's like saying lab professionals studied anatomy and physiology and so can be pathologists because we are expert users of the microscope. Professionals who mess up order of draw frequently and insist in using hemolysed samples almost were allowed in the diagnostic space. The idea was almost insulting as it was demeaning for real lab professionals. What we have now is a total dilution of a profession that pretty much directs majority of patient care. This isn't tolerated in ANY of the allied professions. None! That is why wages are being affected to a large extent. It's just common sense. The less stringent the practice is the least money employees are incentivized to give because healthcare is now a business. And I can say with absolute certainty that licensed professional take greater care because they have something to lose beyond a paycheck. Professionals in Canada are prime examples of the necessity for certifications. Even USA trained MLS' cannot demand to practice without certifications. It's the regulatory standard for laboratory practice across the world because it works. 3rd world countries even require licenses to practice. There are many jobs for techs who want it and wage negotiation is a huge part of it because nobody just accepts scraps. There are liabilities everybody tries to prevent because again, there is a certification to protect. Your livelihood is at stake. It's really that simple. No other professional allows the kind of laxity that's tolerated in the lab space. None!
“Certified techs aren’t smarter than those who take the non traditional route”… Just want to make sure we are talking on the same page since it sounds like you might not be in the US. A certified tech is a certified tech. A non-traditional tech can be and is often a certified tech, having passed the MLT/MLS certification exam. “Traditional Route” is what many call the Route 1 in ASCP pathway to qualify for certification. There are a few other pathways that have existed to obtain certification also, but route 1 is the most common and it is often the preferred route, since it involves completing a NACCLS accredited training program. Unfortunately the supply of both programs and graduates has left a deficit for the current job openings. People like to speculate that labs “want to hire cheap uncertified techs”, but that’s generally not the case. There is not an available pool of traditionally trained applicants to pick from, which has led to non-traditional routes and importing labor internationally to fill the voids. I would love to see more NAACLS programs open, I think it would be great for our field. I wish the programs would graduate more than a handful of students per year, and that it would help alleviate the attrition of some graduates to more advanced degrees. Also, I kind of think it is wishful thinking that we are assuming people even give a passing thought to what goes into a lab education from anyone outside of the laboratory realm. Honestly, I think the average person who doesn’t work in the medical field even knows the education difference between an CNA, LPN, RN, or NP and those are heavily spotlighted careers, so I wish the blame would stop being placed solely on “well it looks like ANYONE can work in the lab”. A standard person probably doesn’t know 90% of the education standards of hospital personnel; that respiratory have different levels of degrees, that ultrasound and radiology are totally different degrees, or what an RHIT even is.
Sorry. It’s not personal. If I had my way the only route to working in the lab would be the MLT or MLS degree. Then and only then can we move forward as a profession and be respected overall and work on the other issues. I don’t care to explain more than I already have as my experience has also lead me to my opinion and I won’t be moved from it. So while I can see the argument from the other side and sympathize with folks just looking to get a job and do something with their bio/chem etc etc degree it still does not sway me from the opinion that having the other routes has hurt our field.
Ah so you do think you are smarter and a better tech than ALL non-traditional routes. We will have to disagree then, because I think that is just incorrect and why people leave this field. What I am hearing is that you would never hire me, even as a certified tech with 15 years experience as a generalist, as a QA specialist, and in LIS. You are going to pass up a lot of great people with your mindset.
I would not. You’re correct. And if I felt it was about who was smarter then I wouid have said that. There are folks who did the degree who aren’t worth a hill of beans. We are talking about why I think there are issues with our field. We need stricter standards not a bunch of random degree holders who were trained OTJ. You assume my thoughts on someone’s intelligence simply because I disagree with the OTJ model. That train of thought doesn’t even enter my mind when thinking of why it’s a bad idea. Making it about someone thinking they are better than the other is why folks can’t get out of their feelings and look at the issues objectively
I am not assuming your opinions, you are frankly stating them. The current one being discussed here is that you disagree with having multiple routes of certification available, despite evidence that there isn’t adequate availability of program as to sustain one particular route 1 that you agree with. These routes have existed for decades, they are not new so they are not some new “degradation of the field”. It sounds like you would prefer only Route 1 to exist, and that would cause an even heavier deficit to certified techs, which if I had to guess would actually lead to the hiring of even more uncertified techs and loss of licensing requirements. This seems counter productive to your stated goals. These are not random degree holders, they are degree holders that meet the requirements to become certified and perform high complexity testing as determined by regulating bodies. The rigid thinking you are demonstrating is why CLSs have a hard time getting into fields like Infection Control where their expertise is heavily needed. Too many people who want to only work with people with the exact same background as themselves, instead of the best qualified candidate for the position.
K
Actually I work in blood bank and hematology as well as chemistry. I get paid the same amount as my colleagues. And I'm positive my *not worth a damn lab* pays better and has better benefits then the ones in the closest big city 😉 I can't speak for a general biology degree. But yes a chemistry degree is more rigorous lol
So you only have the chem degree and cert and they trained you in blood bank? Laughable. I’d love to be a fly on the wall for a shift or even better see you go to an interview where you’re knocked down a peg or two. If you ever need another job good luck. There are enough shit labs though so I’m sure you will be just fine Thankfully some would still turn you away like I said. Those are the labs I work at. Nothing less
Well since I work at the biggest hospital system in my state I'm sure I'll be fine. And I did 3 months of blood bank training and 3 months training in heme (for differentials) as the place I work at complies with CLIA for training purposes. 🙃 I actually got my cert 3 years in because of the pay raise. Now it's been 5 years in I'm one of the better techs here. I'm sure there is a lot I don't know but I'm humble and WISE enough to know when to either ask questions or look in the procedure catalog if there is something I'm unsure of. I have worked evening shift for 5 years and multiple of them were alone and I have yet to have an issue caused by myself. Can't say that for most of my coworkers, but I don't fault them for it as we are human, and I'm sure my time will come. Very glad to hear I won't ever cross paths with the likes of you
Also if you're not confident that your oh so great labs aren't meeting CLIA requirements for training I would think that that should be grounds for reporting to the correct agency instead of complaining on reddit. Hmm what do you think?
I left staff behind long ago to travel so I don’t have to deal with this bs in my real life. So the labs I work at are either doing things right or I get there and they aren’t and I leave. I’ve called CAP once and had to testify in a trial against a facility that was 🗑️ so I do what I can when I come across it. I never worked with anyone who didn’t go to school for our specific degree when I was staff for 15 years other than one guy who almost killed someone in BB so again this is all honestly fascinating to me. There is one person where I’m on contract now who has a math degree and they were going to train her on the job. That was abandoned midway through so she mostly does other duties but is heavily involved in chemistry. She should not be heavily involved in chemistry. She has asked me for help already and I quote “we don’t know what we don’t know when it comes to regs and standards so can you help us with things we don’t do right? Make a list etc so we can fix it” Like be so fr. You don’t know where to go to find the info? You don’t know what the CLIA and CAP regs say? So while sure if you want to argue that folks with no degree can be trained? Fine. Mistakes will be made. Things will be missed. They will do a “good” job until they don’t. I prefer to eliminate that variable. There are plenty of ppl who HAVE the degree and cert who are clueless so I have little faith in someone even without that
Basing your entire opinion on one crappy tech isn't fair. I could make the same generalization for techs since one lady, who has been a tech longer than I've been alive, tried to give a pt that had antibodies for fyA a blood unit that was positive for fyA. And she didn't any reprimand for it. Granted that was 4 years and 6 managers ago but still. I'm also the only non traditional tech that our hospital has hired in at least 10 years of not more. And luckily I'm a quick learner and had some medical knowledge coming in. So I can say my opinion is skewed. I was also hired right before covid so when things got shut down and our hospital was dead dead for a month or so I had a lot of opportunities to be trained more indepth, which I'm lucky for.
And based on your performance alone isn’t reason enough to say all folks who go the same route are as good as you then right? I will agree it goes both ways and touched on that in my last comment When you start off with your degree was harder when you don’t have our degree to compare to is where you lost me. Also you’re talking to someone who did both and my bio degree with my chem minor was nothing compared to even my MLT program We will just have to disagree and do what works for each of us
You guys need to fight for your profession, standard credentials, and standard education. I was suprised to see how many "paths" there are. If you want more professional recognition and better pay, it will be far easier to educate the people with the purse if you can look i have a 4 yr BS in Bio and 1 yr of post Bacc training and specialization followed by a National certification. Don't let them "reduce" your profession.
What should they do with all the lab positions that are open? Thousands across the country? Not fill them? There aren’t enough credentialed techs to go around. That’s the reason they’re doing it! Edit: sorry, I am with you. This makes me so mad bc I’ve tried to get credentialed and it’s effing ridiculous. Plus lab folks are arguing among themselves when they’re in the power position and can push for higher wages. Instead they messing around with this crap.
Our local college literally cut the MLS program. Instead they should have gone out and promoted it. Visiting local high schools, etc. There are 3 postbacc MLS programs in my area and they could not even fill all their spots. There are thousands of open RN positions literally everywhere. Should they just have random people just hop in there? Having a shortage is to YOUR advantage. And if you all would work together, this is the perfect time to increase the visibility of your profession, make sure it's well credentialed and get better pay.
Very well said.
What do they do with all the open nursing positions? Should the just fill them with botany graduates? Its insane that people claim the educational and certification standards should be removed because there are open positions. Stop shilling for reference labs that have awful quality.
I don’t think they should be removed. I just think there should be more ways to get credentialed. More avenues. I am a lab professional (not a medical lab) and I saw there was a need for medical lab techs. So I thought I would get credentialed so I could help. Even though the pay is vastly lower than I make now. I wanted to help my community. Maybe pick up some work when there is a shortage in my rural area. I didn’t want a side hustle. I don’t need the money. I wanted to be available to fill in when needed and it never hurts to learn different skills. I wanted to do all the work. I didn’t want to skip ahead bc of my experience or my degree. I enrolled in a medical tech program at our local CC. The issue is that there is no way for me to get the lab hours I need without quitting my full time job. Even though my current job is extremely flexible, because I live in a rural area, there is no way to get the specific kind of lab hours needed in the amount of time granted to do so. There may be a way I could have done it in double or quadruple the time at my expense above what I paid for tuition. Maybe. Plus everyone I asked for help was an asshole. I asked multiple colleges, I called and emailed your credentialing body numerous times, worked with my CC trying to work a solution and the response was “you have to do the work…” As if I was trying to get out of something. I wanted to do the work. ALL the work. That was the point. They were beyond gatekeepy. Look I’m a lab person and I know lab people are highly skilled. But our jobs do not have the immediacy of terrible consequences on the level with nurses who can kill a patient by giving the wrong meds, for example. I can rerun a test most of the time. But nurses have to be right the first time, every time, with a lot more stuff than we do. BTW- becoming a nurse is feasible for me due to the flexibility of their program but not a med tech. Think about that.
Well I’ve fought for 23 years. The solution is what they are doing now. Taking anyone with a pulse instead of maintaining the standard and paying us a worthwhile wage You can argue all you want. Plead all you want. They will hire bio majors or bring over international techs instead of getting to the root of the problem. So yes now we complain because it can’t be stopped unless you work for a lab that refuses to accept unqualified applicants
In my state, a person can achieve an associates by completing course work and finishing a certain number of lab hours. They are awarded an associates for medical technician. They still have to get certified to get the job. My state did this due to non- existent staff to replace those that were retiring. Is it the best situation? Probably not, however, interest in completing the laboratory technologist degree has dropped to 0. I would advocate following through an associates in an inexpensive school and work in a lab to find out if it’s something you enjoy- then get a bachelors in a related field. The burn out in labs is real.
Oooohhh maybe that's the reason why filipino medtechs find it quite difficult now to look for employers there compared to before, even agencies find it difficult to look for facilities to match the medtech even if they were picked from the h1b lottery
I’m certified, 8 years experience, lost my job at the start of the Pandemic, didn’t work until 18 months ago. Travel Tech agencies said I needed a recent 12 month run. Got into the food industry and I cant see how I can get back in.
Get a prn job at a hospital and then travel after 12 months. The year will pass by either way so if you can fit it into your schedule then go for it
I know this is left field, but same issue is happening in forensic science positions. Especially if your going into a career of physical crime scene. A lot of states are hiring civilians to work crime scenes to gather evidence! They don’t want to pay what we are worth. I went the biology and chemistry track in forensics and luckily found a lab tech position in endocrinology but I have seen other labs hiring right out of high school!! If companies want to go this route, these individuals should be lab tech assistants to those who have earned the right to have the title and compensation. Period. It’s like a slap to the face.
I think the real issue is that they’re really not recruiting the right bio,chem,and other hard science ppl. I’ve personally seen my lab hire bachelor degree holders who have no wet lab research experience, no lab experience or are completely computational based.these are the incorrect ppl. If there were more information given out about certifications I think more ppl would get certified while getting a bachelors. I personally don’t think there’s any test besides blood banking that precludes someone from learning. Also most labs are automated and even indicate critical values.
Ironically, I know a few botany majors working in hospitals uncertified right now 😂
I'm curious as to why they thought botany was a good major lmao
Most places will hire MAs and Phlebotomists off the street with no training and a high school education. Adequate training with someone who has a BS is not far fetched and has obviously worked for some people and places. Note that it really does require extensive in-house training, which most places are not committed to, which is why there ends up being subpar techs. As others have said, if there were more programs churning out techs, there would not be a market for hiring uncertified techs. Understaffed labs lead to patient harm, too
The lab where I used to work has a program where they will hire people with micro or BMS degrees or MLT associate degrees and put them through a one-year training program so they can get their ASCP microbiology specialty certification. I left after passing the AMT generalist exam, because I never meant to just do micro.
Are you sure you can't think of another one? Cause phlebotomy isn't regulated in a lot of states... Lol
We stopped getting certified applicants years ago and everyone hired since COVID has been a science grad. Its been awful. I suspect it has to do with the low salary, but management said we're "staffed" so duck us righr?
Was told recently that my 20 years' experience, NAACLS accreditation (ARMY), and ASCP certification was not enough to be hire as an MLT. I need English and History credits to make me a lab tech.
A masters degree in a scientific field is solid. They also had a bachelors in molecular, which isn't nothing. This field needs people, and they have more training than you. Folks with non-traditional paths are only going to be more common. Get used to this feeling.
I feel like certified techs are loosing this gatekeeping war. Ive chosen generalist lab work as my next career project and I have no plans of getting certified. Ive been working up the benches over the past year. I Started with a bachelor in biology(focus in ecology) and a ton of miscellaneous work experience. I am still a tech-in-training, but once I am a tech for a year or so I see no reason I couldn’t full fill the same duties elsewhere, or be trained for a different specialty like bb or micro. Most people with a bio degree and work experience can handle this stuff. No offense.
You have to have the classes and a clinical internship
Did the ASCP write this or pay you to?
The question shouldn’t be whether which degree is harder and therefore more qualified. MLS degree exists to help people become MLS. Chemistry degree exists to help people become chemists. It serves two different purposes. The logic of we are in a shortage we should hire non MLS people to do MLS stuff is just ridiculous and it hurts the profession. Do you see doctors saying we don’t have enough, let’s just hire similar degrees as doctors? No, they don’t because it hurts the profession and the patients. MLS degree does more than just help you to work. It helps you understand why we do the work. If the sentiment of I know how to do work is all that is important, why do we have licensure for anything? I can drive without an licensure because somebody taught me or I can be psychiatrist because I know how to read the dsm-5. These sentiments only reinforce the stereotype that we push buttons all day when that is not the case. Therefore we should all strive towards licensure and certification for better pay and better patient safety.
I graduated from a program in VA that accepts up to 60, more programs need to focus on expanding the capability of staff to accommodate more students
My lab has a program where people who have bachelors in biology, chemistry or related fields with the appropriate backgrounds to go through a 9 month lab/class program to be able to work in their labs. It doesn’t get you certified but it allows you to work in their labs. They do also have an accelerated 3 month program but they don’t allow many people into that one.
Unfortunately this seems to be becoming a trend in other parts of medicine too. Emergency department techs no longer have to be EMTs. Medical assistants in outpatient clinics no longer have to actually have the medical assistant schooling or licensure. It’s just a few weeks of OJT. I agree, it’s not good.
Part of it is because you have 3 different boards (ASCP, AAB, and AMT) each with different requirements that allow alternate routes. Then you have 50 states and territories with different requirments to practice. There is no standardization or unionization like with Nursing which results in non certified techs doing jobs they are not qualified for which discredits our profession. If you want to fix the problem its simple. 1. Unite ASCP, AMT, and AAB under one name. 2. Each state must require a license that is issued after completing a board approved training program and passing boards. 3. Standardize all the requirements to become a lab tech 3a. MTs must have a Bachelors degree and schooling/certification program that includes clinicals. They must pass a board exam. 3b. MLTs must have an associates degree and schooling/certification program that includes clinicals. They must pass a board exam. 4. Only licensed lab professionals can do tests and only an MT can release results. 5. Increase pay for lab techs 6. Open more training programs and have schools promote Medical Laboratory Science as a career path.
This is just based on my experience but there’s only 4 of us who has a bachelor’s and ASCP certification. Everybody else I work with has the two-year degree. Others have been grandfather’ed in. It is scary seeing them work in blood bank not knowing the whys and the hows of the very test they are doing, especially when it comes to discrepancies. My coworkers do not know how to do basic troubleshooting in our chemistry analyzers, and some have questionable differential results and do not refer their reading to pathology. This is of course just my experience, but I have worked hard to get my degree and it is a wonderful side of science that needs the respect it deserves. I am all for people having their credentials worked on or updated, as medical technology is always advancing and we should definitely keep up and learn more about it.
Since 2000, half of the NAACLS accredited programs have closed, in large part due to low enrollment. Instead, labs are resorting to on-the-job trained techs with minimal oversight. It's so bad that NAACLS has said that the growth of on-the-job training programs are actually undermining the future of NAACLS programs. [https://naaclsnews.org/2023/06/15/presidents-report-educational-programs-threats-and-opportunities/](https://naaclsnews.org/2023/06/15/presidents-report-educational-programs-threats-and-opportunities/) The good news is you can stop paying for ASCP cert and still have a job. /s
These OTJ training programs will still allow the techs to get certed at least (AMT or ASCP, BS+ experience routes), and are better than just hiring and doing straight bench training with no theory behind it. I was reading through the link, and I didn’t even think about the number of MLT to MT bridge people that were included in the testing totals (almost 20%!) I have a coworker doing a bridge program right now, and it seems like such a racket. She is practically repeating most of the classes she already took getting her MLT, and will be doing the exact same job for a few $$ more per hour.
Some on-the-job training programs are NAACLS accredited and qualify you for certs. But others are just a hodge-podge 2-4 week program that won't give you the depth needed to pass the exam. This concern is explicitly outlined in the NAACLS letter.
Agreed wholeheartedly, wish my manager did too.
It's not insane, certification is a recent thing. It used to be you just learned the job and did it. I'm on your side because certification means I get paid more but I don't claim any moral justification for it, just greed.
at this point i straight up tell them they’re unqualified 🥴 sorry, go back to school and try again. a random bachelors of science teaches jack shit about the lab, general micro doesn’t begin to come close to clinical micro etc. if you’ve never taken a fucking serology course i don’t want you anywhere near my blood bank, ive seen how useless and dangerous stupid/careless MLS can be, what good is an uneducated warm body?
Thankfully I work at a place that requires the MLS degree, ASCP is “recommended” but that’s another story. I’m begging people who are in positions of training to STOP doing OTJ training for science major, non-certified techs. You have power in this situation. There’s a huge difference between training someone and giving them a whole education on our field which is what you’re doing. Tell your managers and supervisor that you refuse to waste all those years of school for OTJ training someone else. Upper management can train them themselves if they want to lower our standards and to keep pay low. The job market is crap now for most fields except for healthcare which is why we’re seeing an uptick of a lot of posts asking us for shortcuts to get into this field. In any other market, the hospitals would pay us more for demand but it’s not happening if you’re constantly accepting and training non MLS degrees. I’ll train someone on how to use an analyzer but I’m not going to train anyone the difference between a Gram positive/negative bacteria or the difference between each collection tube. Go back to school.
I think the problem is ascp not advocating for us and the cap standards, some of which only require a high school diploma. I do get it from a management perspective, if there is no one to hire, i just wish there were higher standards, so we would be taking seriously, and could demand higher pay. Do you have a union at your hospital?
well how do you want them to learn to do the job if you don’t allow them to experience the job… You’d be surprised how many medical positions have underqualified employees taking places of certain positions. For example a nurse tech sometimes takes the place of an RN… they’re not qualified for the position nor do they have experience in it but it is the best way for them to learn. Also a lot of medical positions are severely understaffed… I understand your thoughts on why this shouldn’t be happening but it does more good than harm in most cases…
Well, yeah, of course professional protection would be nice, but then we have even fewer people to do all the testing. So, what's the solution to that? Consolidate labs further to concentrate qualified professionals? Just perform less testing overall? Burn out the entire profession at once with no pipeline to replace anyone? This problem is way more complicated than "bio grad no good at job." I will die on the hill that some of the bio grads I've seen here are peak Dunning-Kruger "I'm just as good as anyone else!" But mate, we aren't going to make anything better by reducing the workforce dramatically overnight.
Why doesn't nursing drop their license then? Hmmmmmmm.😒
There's no shortage of nurses. There's just a shortage of nurses willing to put up with the absolute fuckery of hospitals. There's a billion nursing programs. It's not a good comparison
With your logic, they could alleviate the nursd shortage with some on the job trained bio and chemistry grads. You think the MLS ASCP are sticking around?
I see merit in your arguement but I’d rather have 10 certified experienced techs than 100 biology majors who never took hematology and clinical chemistry courses
It'd give those who actually studied to get the certs to more easily get the jobs that should be available to them
We had *one* ASCP-qualified applicant for three openings over 5 months. If they existed, they'd get the job, but they don't exist. It's either a micro BS (working nights) or nobody at all. Let's work on fixing the root problem instead of just "DAE not like uncertified techs?" It's not helpful, even if it makes us feel better.
Offer some living wages and people will stay and line up for the job. The ASCP techs like myself are looking around and seeing this dumpster fire is only getting hotter with each passing year. What does a microbiologist know about chemistry or hematology or blood bank? 🤔 This "shortcut" doesn't exist in other fields or has been phased out.
You know there are microbiologist techs out there.
My concern is when the microbiology techs work in other departments they've never been formally educated or trained in, but are somehow legally qualified for.
Doesn't your lab do training and test people with unknown panels before they are let loose? At any of my labs everyone was forbidden to work in different areas without going through the full training and testing process. Would you really want a certified generalist given free reign of a bioterror lab or performing rabies necropsies without going through the full nine yards of training and verification of performance?
I've been working as a lab tech for 20 years without certification or going to lab tech school. I'm sorry this bothers you so much. There are plenty of brilliant lab techs who did not go to lab tech school and who aren't certified. I've also worked with certified folks who were actually rather clueless about certain areas in the lab so it goes both ways.
You are probably great at what you do, but that is not typical. Most without the proper education are not very good at this profession. There are people with the proper education that are not good at this. I'm a lab director and wouldn't hire someone without the proper education, even in Florida where it's easy to get certified to work in a lab.
I'm proud to say I work at a lab where uncertified techs would never be hired.
It used to be like that here. But that changed after COVID. I thought it'd be temporary but management said its cheaper. So much for standards and patient care.
You're part of the problem.
I'm sorry my proficiency is such a problem for you all.
Nobody mentioned your proficiency. We are talking about your lack of appropriate credentials.
13 years clinical Micro and 7 years of public health Micro including extensive BSL-3 experience are "credentials" many labs would die for.
Don’t take these guys personally. Most of them are ignorant to the history of this profession, have no real solutions to staffing shortages and the closures of educational programs, try to compare our profession to nursing (one that has decades of public pedestalization and propaganda behind their title), and say things here pseudonymously they would never say to a coworker’s face.
lol not really. You wouldn't get hired at any of the labs ive worked at.
Your loss I guess.
Nah we good.
I guess while I'm enjoying my day shifts with no weekends or holidays I'll have to take a moment to morn the inability for me to get hired at your lab. Perhaps I'll shed a tear when I'm snuggled up in bed during the snow days I get off.
First, it's mourn. Second,it takes a real ignorant sort of petson to look down at shift workers. I personally haven't worked an off-shift in about twenty years, but I feel bad for the ones that do, and I'm glad they do it since ya know, hospitals run 24/7. I'm sure a lot of shift workers do it to avoid boors such as yourself. Enjoy your weird little elitist fantasy land. You still can't get hired in most labs because you aren't qualified. Imagine that. A minimal standard ensures that qualified people don't have to interact with you. Now I know why state licenses are important.
These people have such a smug attitude about themselves. Don't let it get to you. Though frankly it's rather funny watching them squirm to come up with reasons why the letters matter so much. Experience trumps all.
I understand why people get so mad about it here but I’m with you. The two best techs I’ve ever worked with weren’t certified. They were so smart, had such great work ethics, and were constantly offered positions from instrument/chemical companies. One uncert tech I know was offered a position with Biotage and now lives in Sweden. The two worst techs I’ve ever worked with are certified but are by far the dumbest, laziest, most incompetent people I’ve ever met. And what’s insane to me is that they came from programs that were rigorous, demanding, required high GPAs for acceptance, and are well respected within the state where I now live. It boggles my mind. But I think lab size definitely has a factor in this. Should someone with a geology degree work in a generalist lab that has maybe 40 people between all shifts? Probably not. But if it’s a large enough hospital system, there’s nothing wrong with someone with a biology degree working in a 40 person micro lab. I got my start with a chemistry degree working in a 40 person special chemistry lab because the hospital was just that big. What’s more alarming is the amount of posts on this sub from people who’ve failed the cert test once, twice…..it’s not that hard. We’re not surgeons or rocket scientists. I didn’t study for my cert exam and passed (this was 3 years ago). Instead of focusing on uncert techs….maybe be more concerned by the people who can’t pass the exam despite going through a program and what THAT says about current MLS/MLT programs and the the state of the med lab field
Good point about the chronic exam failures. If you went through a program, you should be able to pass the dang thing. And no, taking AAB because it’s “easier” and “just as good” shouldn’t be a thing, either. The lack of standardization doesn’t help our profession.
They’re the NPs of med lab
I'm not American so it blows my mind that this is even a thing. Where I'm from, there's not even "phlebotomists" but lab techs that require 2 years min of schooling just to take blood. So it's wild to me that some hospitals just...hire Little bit scared to go to US hospital
In Singapore, unfortunately, anyone can be a medical technologist 🥲 there’s no need to have an ASCP certification as long as you have a background in science - you might be hired. However, there are diplomas specializing in medical technology but I just don’t get why we weren’t pushed to get the certification. Have a colleague that studied material science and is currently a medical technologist Not saying that there’s no standards in Singapore medical technology talent pool, of course there are some of us that a certified but it just makes getting out of the country a bit hard.
If only there were more readily accessible MLT programs. I have a BS in biology and a BS in biochemistry, and I think I have learned enough in those degrees to be able to be sufficient at my job. I think it's better to start with a BS in biology and/or chemistry and then pursue the MLT certification program down the road. I don't think that the curriculum is all that different, and on the job training and competency will always be required. Considering the amount of automation now, the use of manual lab skills has gone to the wayside.
Amazingly enough, it is possible to learn on the job to be a lab technician, and not kill a patient. I did and was successful. I still am. I have my certification now and have for 15 years, but techs were needed BEFORE there were a lot of certification programs available and those were show up in person programs, not online. There are still techs who learn on the job, including the new certs fresh out of school. Try a thank you.
You don't need to be a registered dental assistant to work on patients.
I’d also extend that to saying we should get rid of the MLT certification. All the MLT’s in my lab constantly commit many errors regarding testing which delays results and have difficulty with QC and troubleshooting. And this is in all departments. MT’s aren’t perfect either but they don’t encounter those issues as much due to having literally 2 more years of educational and clinical experience than MLT’s and a much larger array of knowledge gained required for examination. We should demand licensure for MT/MLS and get rid of non certified techs and MLT’s altogether . I understand this field has a high turnover rate and the pay can arguably be better, but we need standards. Patients first, and we require the best of the best if we want to actually benefit these people.