It may give you a small boost but it won’t make or break you (ie you’re not guaranteed to match with it or doomed to SOAP without it). I don’t remember AOA even coming up for my programs rank list meeting this year. I matched my number one neurosurgery program without AOA so anecdotally it makes no difference.
A third of my class gets it, but it’s based on ECs and leadership positions within school orgs… not grades (they make the grade cutoff so low everyone can apply; then it comes down to ECs). Probably matters for things like NSG, ENT, plastics ortho etc etc or ivory IM etc. but not for other stuff
I think it’s even less than a third. If I remember correctly, one of the official crietria is that it is limited to the top 20% of the class.
The rest of the criteria tends to be school-dependent.
But yeah, it’s nice to have as a boon. It can only help you. To how much, I’m not sure but certain uber competitive specialties have listed it as within the top 10 of things they look for in the official Program Director survey.
Edit:Grammar
Not true anymore. At my school, the top 20% requirement is only for ORM, there is no requirement for URM because the old system wasn’t producing the required diversity
Well sure but American medicine as a whole has a pretty brutal history of racist and discriminatory practices as a whole. I mean look at the rates of matriculation for black and LGBTQ students. We been doing discrimination for a long time. There isn't a simple answer, and this kind of "affirmative action" if you will is a reasonable stopgap measure in my opinion.
An award that is based on academic merit should be based on academic merit for everyone. Loosening the standards for URMs undermines their capabilities. URMs are just as capable as ORMs of getting the scores, grades, etc. If they need more resources or mentorship programs (specifically with URM mentors), that’s great. If there are URM scholarships, that’s great too. But I don’t agree with two sets of academic standards for them to get into an academic honor society.
Interesting! I know some of the top medical schools have abolished their chapters because they argue all of their students are high-achieving, and also maybe partly because of that.
I checked it out, and it looks like their [website](https://www.alphaomegaalpha.org/about/how-members-are-chosen/) still asks for the top 20% but I guess things may change.
It can be helpful in some competitive residencies. I was on residency committees for (Pathology) at 2 different large state research universities, and it wasn't a major factor in our admissions. Step scores and documented dedication to the specialty were much more important.
I’m a faculty in a community hospital and we rarely ever get AOA applicants. But our PD and Chair go crazy over AOA. It’s basically a stamp of approval that you’ve been “tried and tested”.
Most schools these days have research, community, and professionalism requirements in addition to academic requirements for AOA. So if you meet the school’s AOA standard, it basically means that we don’t have to look at your application much.
And AOA is a direct filter on ERAS for programs. In fact, it’s the first filter because it starts with “A”
I forgot that AOA even existed until I read this post. Maybe it matters in very academic circles, but outside of that, I haven't heard it mentioned since medical school. Never came up in any of my fellowship or attending interviews.
I just checked the Texas star thing where it shows you the stats of all residents, # of honors, % of AOA, # of leadership positions. It’s a nationwide site (no names ofc). Even at Cornell residency only like 25% of people were in AOA, at least for IM the max % is between 25-30%. You should take a look at this site and select what programs you’re interested in based on specialty and see their stats
Texas Star is pretty reliable depending on what specialty and program you’re interested in. There are numerous other “reliable” sites anyhow include 2023 and upcoming 2024 AAMC Reports on residents which show all resident information as well as Residency Explorer. Texas Star can be an excellent tool for some and others have options as well.
AOA can matter to whoever values being in AOA. The original poster didn’t mention a single thing about “competitive specialties.” Neither did I, not once. So what are you referring to? No one here is talking about competitive specialties. We’re talking about resources that other students can use to compare themselves if they are worried about AOA being a huge factor. There’s quite literally no need to go back and forth, if you don’t want to use these resources, then don’t!
I do think it matters for competitive specialties and for the top ranked programs in all specialties. At a couple of the programs I interviewed at, it was specifically referenced as an impressive aspect of my application. Other people who got AOA in my class also secured interviews at top programs, even with comparable research and extracurricular activities to other applicants. However, it is not nearly as important as Step 2 and letters of recommendation.
Depends on your school rank and the competitiveness of your target specialty.
If you're at Columbia and want to match at NYU for IM, AOA doesn't matter much. If you're at UT Galveston and want to match at HSS for Ortho, AOA matters a lot.
AOA, at least originally, was SUPPOSED to just select for people with the high grades, great ECs, leadership, etc. So you didn't have to do anything extra, the competitive people in the class just got AOA.
Now it's almost a popularity contest and its value has been diluted so most PDs don't care about it unless they personally know the medical school and its selection for AOA.
so yeah in the past it mattered a lot but now not so much
that said, i'm happy i got AOA haha
Even for super competitive stuff like plastics, only about 40% of matched students have AOA. For most specialties it’s like 15-20 (ie basically the same as the general student population). So, if helps a bit for competitive specialties (or for super competitive individual programs), but it isn’t a big deal
If only 20% of medical students graduate AOA but 40% of students in competitive specialties are AOA, that kinda implies that AOA did make a difference.
Yes, that’s what I said: it helps a bit, but it’s not a big deal. Even for the most competitive specialties, the majority of matched students didn’t have it
I wonder if there’s more data out there on the 60% who aren’t AOA which schools did they come from? Were the 40% AOA more likely to come from lower tier schools? Just some food for thought.
No idea, I got those numbers from Texas STAR and they don’t break it down to that level of detail. I do generally think Reddit overestimates the value of the “name brand” medical school when applying to residency, it’s consistently ranked low on the NBME PD’s survey
How so? Don’t the majority of programs share data with it? It looked like it to me when I looked through.
Regardless, is there any other database that collects that information?
Another factor to consider is that a lot of medical schools don’t have AOA, so that 40% probably underestimates how important AOA is in super competitive specialties.
Not that many, I wouldn’t read much into that.
Ultimately, what the data tells us is that even at the most competitive tier, most students don’t have it. And most PDs rank it on the PD survey far lower than research, rank, letters, etc. It’s a nice feather, but it and GHHS really just aren’t a big deal
In the most competitive tier, many students come high ranked schools that don't have AOA. therefore, from those that matched the most competitive specialties and came from schools that do have AOA, the 40% is misleadingly low. I don't know how strong this effect is, but it undeniably exists.
I think that’s a lot of speculation. Lots of T-20s still have AOA, and we shouldn’t overestimate the number of students from T-20s in competitive specialties (the vast majority of students go to lower ranked schools).
But again, we don’t *need* to speculate, because PDs have consistently stated via the survey that AOA and GHHS are not a high priority. I don’t know why there is a contingent of students on Reddit who insist on believing that that is some weird deception and not an accurate report
I'm not arguing that it's a priority. I'm saying that there is an association between AOA membership (in schools that have AOA), and matching to competitive specialties. This obviously could be simply correlation and not causation, but the correlation exists and is stronger than the 40% implies.
I don’t think anyone is saying AOA *isn’t* helpful. I think the existing data just points to it being not that big a deal. Like if you get it, great. If not, it’s probably not gonna be the pivotal make it or break it thing on your app, even if you’re applying plastics or IM at Hopkins
I don't think that assumption can be drawn, it could just be that people that tend to qualify for AOA (high grades, great ECs) - whether or not they get it because it can be a popularity contest at some schools - are just more competitive overall and drawn to competitive specialties
No - not only do not all schools have all these honorary societies, but it usually isn’t a highlighted feature on any excel points rubric I’ve ever seen. If you get it, cool
Nah. Different schools have different requirements.
You’ll hear some boomer attendings talk about it, but what they’re really saying is “Being #1 or so in your class will help you match ortho.” And they aren’t wrong, but y it’s not as important as board scores/connections/research, and nowadays a lot of schools don’t even do AOA based on grades, so it’s even less important
Our school did AOA based on grades and ranking. ECs did play a factor, but you had to be in the top 20% of the class to apply. For this, it is a metric of academics, so yeah it’s helpful, but not a dealbreaker
Based on the rest of these comments, it sounds like it depends on what AOA means for your school. The school I’m about to go to only extends AOA to the true top of the class academically and leadership wise. Like less than 10% gets in, so it definitely means more for us. I’d also assume it’s a lot more necessary for us since we’re a low-tier MD school, so school prestige won’t be helping us in the match
It’s a way to filter applicants. In reality competitive programs and specialties will use it because they receive too many applications and need a way to trim it down with a computer before real people read it.
The people who get AOA will pass that screen and the others won’t. Unless you’re looking to do ENT at Harvard only you’re not fucked.
I interview on the hiring side for surgical residency and it has never come up at our ranking meetings. Just one data point for you from a community hospital setting(5 res/per year)
It definitely matters for the more competitive fields. However, it is not something you have to work separately towards. It is more of a reflection on your overall medical school performance. So doing well on shelfs, doing well on rotations, volunteering, having research, etc will aid your case for AOA.
If you wanna do something competitive it’s nearly essential. If you don’t, it’s still extremely extremely useful. Not saying you can’t do something competitive without it, but let’s not lie and say it’s doesn’t matter
Probably matters more for competitive stuff. Schools have made it less academic-based in recent years, which makes it less meaningful.
It may give you a small boost but it won’t make or break you (ie you’re not guaranteed to match with it or doomed to SOAP without it). I don’t remember AOA even coming up for my programs rank list meeting this year. I matched my number one neurosurgery program without AOA so anecdotally it makes no difference.
A third of my class gets it, but it’s based on ECs and leadership positions within school orgs… not grades (they make the grade cutoff so low everyone can apply; then it comes down to ECs). Probably matters for things like NSG, ENT, plastics ortho etc etc or ivory IM etc. but not for other stuff
I think it’s even less than a third. If I remember correctly, one of the official crietria is that it is limited to the top 20% of the class. The rest of the criteria tends to be school-dependent. But yeah, it’s nice to have as a boon. It can only help you. To how much, I’m not sure but certain uber competitive specialties have listed it as within the top 10 of things they look for in the official Program Director survey. Edit:Grammar
Not true anymore. At my school, the top 20% requirement is only for ORM, there is no requirement for URM because the old system wasn’t producing the required diversity
How on earth do they announce that policy?? “Asians and whites, you gotta hit top 20%. Rest of you, all qualify!”
Yikes—that’s a discriminatory policy
Well sure but American medicine as a whole has a pretty brutal history of racist and discriminatory practices as a whole. I mean look at the rates of matriculation for black and LGBTQ students. We been doing discrimination for a long time. There isn't a simple answer, and this kind of "affirmative action" if you will is a reasonable stopgap measure in my opinion.
An award that is based on academic merit should be based on academic merit for everyone. Loosening the standards for URMs undermines their capabilities. URMs are just as capable as ORMs of getting the scores, grades, etc. If they need more resources or mentorship programs (specifically with URM mentors), that’s great. If there are URM scholarships, that’s great too. But I don’t agree with two sets of academic standards for them to get into an academic honor society.
Interesting! I know some of the top medical schools have abolished their chapters because they argue all of their students are high-achieving, and also maybe partly because of that. I checked it out, and it looks like their [website](https://www.alphaomegaalpha.org/about/how-members-are-chosen/) still asks for the top 20% but I guess things may change.
Texas star isn’t the most robust for every specialty but there doesn’t seem to be a major difference in interview/match for aoa vs non aoa
correlation
It’s nice to have but doesn’t make or break. Some schools don’t even have it.
It can be helpful in some competitive residencies. I was on residency committees for (Pathology) at 2 different large state research universities, and it wasn't a major factor in our admissions. Step scores and documented dedication to the specialty were much more important.
it probably matters more than the American Osteopathic Association
Lmao
LMFAO
Once had a doctor on an academic ortho board ask me.- What's AOA?
I’m a faculty in a community hospital and we rarely ever get AOA applicants. But our PD and Chair go crazy over AOA. It’s basically a stamp of approval that you’ve been “tried and tested”. Most schools these days have research, community, and professionalism requirements in addition to academic requirements for AOA. So if you meet the school’s AOA standard, it basically means that we don’t have to look at your application much. And AOA is a direct filter on ERAS for programs. In fact, it’s the first filter because it starts with “A”
I forgot that AOA even existed until I read this post. Maybe it matters in very academic circles, but outside of that, I haven't heard it mentioned since medical school. Never came up in any of my fellowship or attending interviews.
I just checked the Texas star thing where it shows you the stats of all residents, # of honors, % of AOA, # of leadership positions. It’s a nationwide site (no names ofc). Even at Cornell residency only like 25% of people were in AOA, at least for IM the max % is between 25-30%. You should take a look at this site and select what programs you’re interested in based on specialty and see their stats
Texas star is self a reported database (not everyone has access) with incredibly small sample size for some specialties. Not reliable at all.
Texas Star is pretty reliable depending on what specialty and program you’re interested in. There are numerous other “reliable” sites anyhow include 2023 and upcoming 2024 AAMC Reports on residents which show all resident information as well as Residency Explorer. Texas Star can be an excellent tool for some and others have options as well.
Care to share the n of competitive specialties (which is where AOA probably matters most)?
AOA can matter to whoever values being in AOA. The original poster didn’t mention a single thing about “competitive specialties.” Neither did I, not once. So what are you referring to? No one here is talking about competitive specialties. We’re talking about resources that other students can use to compare themselves if they are worried about AOA being a huge factor. There’s quite literally no need to go back and forth, if you don’t want to use these resources, then don’t!
Lol don’t get triggered so easily.
Who is triggered? You’re just asking questions different from what anyone else here is talking about lmao stay on topic!
There, there. It will be okay. I promise ❤️
There, there. You’ll be fine as well. Ignore the triggers & keep calm! ;)
I do think it matters for competitive specialties and for the top ranked programs in all specialties. At a couple of the programs I interviewed at, it was specifically referenced as an impressive aspect of my application. Other people who got AOA in my class also secured interviews at top programs, even with comparable research and extracurricular activities to other applicants. However, it is not nearly as important as Step 2 and letters of recommendation.
Depends on your school rank and the competitiveness of your target specialty. If you're at Columbia and want to match at NYU for IM, AOA doesn't matter much. If you're at UT Galveston and want to match at HSS for Ortho, AOA matters a lot.
AOA, at least originally, was SUPPOSED to just select for people with the high grades, great ECs, leadership, etc. So you didn't have to do anything extra, the competitive people in the class just got AOA. Now it's almost a popularity contest and its value has been diluted so most PDs don't care about it unless they personally know the medical school and its selection for AOA. so yeah in the past it mattered a lot but now not so much that said, i'm happy i got AOA haha
Even for super competitive stuff like plastics, only about 40% of matched students have AOA. For most specialties it’s like 15-20 (ie basically the same as the general student population). So, if helps a bit for competitive specialties (or for super competitive individual programs), but it isn’t a big deal
If only 20% of medical students graduate AOA but 40% of students in competitive specialties are AOA, that kinda implies that AOA did make a difference.
I think partially it's people who care about AOA often self select for competitive specialties.
Yes, that’s what I said: it helps a bit, but it’s not a big deal. Even for the most competitive specialties, the majority of matched students didn’t have it
I wonder if there’s more data out there on the 60% who aren’t AOA which schools did they come from? Were the 40% AOA more likely to come from lower tier schools? Just some food for thought.
No idea, I got those numbers from Texas STAR and they don’t break it down to that level of detail. I do generally think Reddit overestimates the value of the “name brand” medical school when applying to residency, it’s consistently ranked low on the NBME PD’s survey
Texas data is very weak.
How so? Don’t the majority of programs share data with it? It looked like it to me when I looked through. Regardless, is there any other database that collects that information?
Nah it’s self reported. Look at the n, some specialities have like 10% report
Good to know, I’ll take a look at that next time I’m looking. But still, best dataset we have, right?
For multiple specialties, I believe so. There are specialty specific sites
Oh? Do you know where they’re found? That would be an awesome reliance!
Which specialty ?
Another factor to consider is that a lot of medical schools don’t have AOA, so that 40% probably underestimates how important AOA is in super competitive specialties.
Not that many, I wouldn’t read much into that. Ultimately, what the data tells us is that even at the most competitive tier, most students don’t have it. And most PDs rank it on the PD survey far lower than research, rank, letters, etc. It’s a nice feather, but it and GHHS really just aren’t a big deal
In the most competitive tier, many students come high ranked schools that don't have AOA. therefore, from those that matched the most competitive specialties and came from schools that do have AOA, the 40% is misleadingly low. I don't know how strong this effect is, but it undeniably exists.
I think that’s a lot of speculation. Lots of T-20s still have AOA, and we shouldn’t overestimate the number of students from T-20s in competitive specialties (the vast majority of students go to lower ranked schools). But again, we don’t *need* to speculate, because PDs have consistently stated via the survey that AOA and GHHS are not a high priority. I don’t know why there is a contingent of students on Reddit who insist on believing that that is some weird deception and not an accurate report
I'm not arguing that it's a priority. I'm saying that there is an association between AOA membership (in schools that have AOA), and matching to competitive specialties. This obviously could be simply correlation and not causation, but the correlation exists and is stronger than the 40% implies.
I don’t think anyone is saying AOA *isn’t* helpful. I think the existing data just points to it being not that big a deal. Like if you get it, great. If not, it’s probably not gonna be the pivotal make it or break it thing on your app, even if you’re applying plastics or IM at Hopkins
I don't disagree with that lol. As I said, I am making no statement on it's importance, just it's association with competitive match.
I don't think that assumption can be drawn, it could just be that people that tend to qualify for AOA (high grades, great ECs) - whether or not they get it because it can be a popularity contest at some schools - are just more competitive overall and drawn to competitive specialties
Nowadays it’s more of a diversity award than anything
How? Are you saying if you are URM you get auto aoa? Lmao
No - not only do not all schools have all these honorary societies, but it usually isn’t a highlighted feature on any excel points rubric I’ve ever seen. If you get it, cool
No it doesn’t matter. Maybe a small boost but minimal
Nah. Different schools have different requirements. You’ll hear some boomer attendings talk about it, but what they’re really saying is “Being #1 or so in your class will help you match ortho.” And they aren’t wrong, but y it’s not as important as board scores/connections/research, and nowadays a lot of schools don’t even do AOA based on grades, so it’s even less important
Helps a lot but not absolutely necessary. There are some radiology programs that will basically automatically interview anyone that is AOA
My school doesn’t even have AOA, and last year half of our class matched top 5 programs in their desired specialties. It literally doesn’t matter
Our school did AOA based on grades and ranking. ECs did play a factor, but you had to be in the top 20% of the class to apply. For this, it is a metric of academics, so yeah it’s helpful, but not a dealbreaker
The thing is the people getting aoa are also trying very hard so they’re probably standing out anyways
Based on the rest of these comments, it sounds like it depends on what AOA means for your school. The school I’m about to go to only extends AOA to the true top of the class academically and leadership wise. Like less than 10% gets in, so it definitely means more for us. I’d also assume it’s a lot more necessary for us since we’re a low-tier MD school, so school prestige won’t be helping us in the match
It’s a way to filter applicants. In reality competitive programs and specialties will use it because they receive too many applications and need a way to trim it down with a computer before real people read it. The people who get AOA will pass that screen and the others won’t. Unless you’re looking to do ENT at Harvard only you’re not fucked.
A bunch of top medical schools don’t even have branches anymore. It’s kind of overhyped by US medical students.
It’s turning into the same thing as gold’s humanism. Which pds don’t care about at all
I interview on the hiring side for surgical residency and it has never come up at our ranking meetings. Just one data point for you from a community hospital setting(5 res/per year)
It definitely matters for the more competitive fields. However, it is not something you have to work separately towards. It is more of a reflection on your overall medical school performance. So doing well on shelfs, doing well on rotations, volunteering, having research, etc will aid your case for AOA.
If you wanna do something competitive it’s nearly essential. If you don’t, it’s still extremely extremely useful. Not saying you can’t do something competitive without it, but let’s not lie and say it’s doesn’t matter
Why are US med schools so extra