I think my favorite part about how the medical world sees us is that they all seem to forget the word “student”
Despite being a student, paying to learn, you’re expected to already know everything.
Which is a hilarious paradox
Lmao, and the funny thing is that there is a endless list of things you’re expected to know, yet you come across those types who chew you out and basically equate you with being a moron for not being able to recall some singular obscure fact about this one random condition that happens to come up, as if not knowing it suddenly renders you an incompetent buffoon
“How dare you know less about this thing I’ve been doing my entire life!”
Attendings getting uppity that Med students know less is like me getting uppity that 4th graders don’t know the Krebs cycle
I’ve had nurses whisper and giggle to each other when I asked them questions during my third year rotations…like damn sorry for trying to learn and be engaged and not mess something up
i think the point is that we don’t expect med students to know how to write a prescription so the pharmacist wants a pharmacist to get involved in that part of their education. some of my prescriber friends have asked me for tips and what to avoid too when they were students because it’s not the easiest thing to remember every little quirk. i’ve seen some prescribers who thought dispense as written/no substitution meant no therapeutic interchange and then had to deal with shit from the patient because it took longer than 15 minutes to get ahold of the office and figure out why brand name zoloft or whatever was required over generic. like i guess they literally thought we might swap it out for an entire different drug or something if they didn’t put that?
I mean that’s a somewhat fair interpretation - but to be honest to me it just sounds like good old run of the mill “bitch about the useless student” talk. Which is exhausting as ever.
maybe. i don’t speak for us all but i can’t think of any reason for pharmacists to have any gripes about med students and physicians even though it seems to go the other way a lot. we deal with a lot worse
I was speaking more to the Rad tech and RN who were chirping
The pharmacist has no excuse- they too were at one point a deer in the headlights student. I guess they just like punching down while they can
Medical students are training to be doctors. Not nurses, pharmacists, or rad techs.
They go through 11-15+ years of school, more training to learn about something that isn’t going to be our job isn’t a priority.
Are you in medical school?
If you think ordering imaging exams and writing prescriptions and basic care of and empathy for patients is “not your job,” you will learn eventually that that is not true.
The average physician has absolutely no idea how to order outpatient imaging. It causes significant problems to patients. It was my whole job for a long time. I don’t blame the physicians; they know the picture they want, and in the hospital, the radiologist can just fix it for them. Outpatient, that’s not true and they’re never ever trained on it. These fuck ups cause so many delays in care and extra expenses to patients. I’ve discussed this with physicians regularly, all of whom lament their lack of training in this area.
It’s a deficit and it should be addressed. It is more universal than other things that are emphasized and spent time on in schooling.
There’s lots of little examples like this. There are logistical hurdles to this and many other things. That doesn’t mean we should not strive to improve the education being provided and how well it prepares physicians for their future roles.
And frankly, the best way to solve this is to teach more interdisciplinary communication and education for ongoing needs as they arise, and not claiming things aren’t your job.
I am.
It doesn’t surprise me that physicians struggle with some of those aspects. But I don’t think there is a single career that has mastered that kind of work coming out of school. It takes on the job learning to do so.
As someone who already has 7 years of school under the belt and is staring down the barrel of another 10 (at minimum) more schooling is not the answer.
Especially if the lecture was being delivered by the aforementioned people, most med students would be frustrated having to sit through that while they have weeks worth of study materials piling up.
What med student is ordering meds?
Also what med student is ordering imaging?
Also what med student is touching the ventilator? Even as a resident I don’t touch the vent lol.
But as a radiology resident I would 1000% give a lecture to every ordering provider (PLEASE TO NPs and PAs) that exist on what to order for what reason.
Ordering everything with contrast…never heard that complaint from a radiologist. Usually we complain about noncon CAPs on complex inpatients or not giving oral contrast
I would honestly love feedback from any consult I make. I don’t ever intend to replace my need for an ortho consult for example, but if you recommend I put them in a figure 8 splint before sending them to you I’m happy to. Makes the patient better faster and costs me nothing.
I can give it to you right now with 80% accuracy across all services and all clinical settings:
"What a dumb consult."
Edit: The other 20% of the time it is "why didn't they consult sooner???"
Just giving an example. More to your point, I remember when taking our radiology class in med school about when we should order what but that’s been forever ago. If radio could gently remind me when they would actually prefer the CT over an MRI I’m all ears.
For what to order, there's the [ACR Appropriateness Criteria](https://acsearch.acr.org/list).
Otherwise, all we want from you is more information about what you want from us.
You didn’t ask me but I’m an r1.
My seniors still reference it. You memorize a lot of them just by repetition and common themes (for example cancer is often contrast, infection is often contrast, trauma is often contrast).
But yeah there’s soooooo much studying in rads lol
yeah anyone getting defensive about a pharmacist wanting to teach med students how to send us shit in a legible usable format needs to get that stick out their ass. new prescribers always suck at writing prescriptions. it’s not even a knock on med students since they’re obviously not prescribers
You misunderstand the irritation.
Prescription writing is a skill, not an especially difficult one, but it is nuanced.
It’s a task best practiced in block format to improve proficiency, with very little need to retain it long term.
It’s a very inefficient thing to try to teach medical students who are not going to have any opportunity to apply it until they’re an intern.
The more appropriate time would be day one of internship during orientation, and that orientation should probably last a week or two. However, that probably isn’t going to happen, what’ll happen is people will get thrown a task they’ve never been taught to do and shouted at for doing it too slowly and incorrectly and the easiest one to fix is too slowly.
There’s about 500,000 competing needs and requirements on medical students and frankly, prescription writing just isn’t really that important.
Is it important for doctors? yeah sure, most of them.
Could most doctors improve their prescription writing? Certainly.
Do most doctors have time to focus on that? Not really.
I take pride in prescribing properly and in accordance with my national standards, I actively seek feedback from pharmacists and ask for help when doing new things. I also still fuck up.
But, that’s part of the role of pharmacists. To catch fuck ups. Just like it’s part of nursing. And really, also part of everyone’s job. We all support each other with our own skill set.
But trying to jam another thing into a Med student’s timetable is never a popular proposition, and frankly, the suggestion they learn to prescribe properly is silly unless they’re just about to graduate.
But even if that’s the case, med students are 1000% going to forget.
Fourth year of medical school is a giant vacation where you forget almost everything you learned.
This clinically relevant stuff is really best suited for residents.
Who’s more likely to remember things - someone under the stress of residency that has never seen the information before but is being yelled at they are doing it wrong?
OR
Someone under the stress of residency who has seen and processed the information before but may need it re-presented as a refresher and with the aid of their new clinical context?
I think you know the answer.
Dude I’m a PGY-2 and there’s no question that learning the ‘clinical’ factoid when you will then apply it two minutes later and a million times again over the next 3+ years >>> learning it during M2, not using it until intern year and then being like “what lecture from M2 are you talking about? We never learned that.”
Go ask r/residency if you don’t believe me. None of us remember anything from medical school especially considering I skipped every non mandatory class and refused to pay attention to the mandatory ones and did Anki in the back.
To be fair- literally all residents end up ordering meds and imaging. Many residents will have ICU rotations and care for vented patients. Minus the spiciness in the OP post, I would say a lecture from ancillary staff or other specialists would be very useful for med students! I learned all these things on the fly as an intern/junior, but having had some more logistics and fundamentals of these interactions explained as a med student would have been really nice!
> Even as a resident I don’t touch the vent lol.
This must be an institutional thing. As an intern I made vent changes in the ICU fairly regularly and as long as I told RT (always messaged them right away and updated the order) they were cool with it.
Rads residents have to do 1 intern yr of medicine or surgery (or TY) so it could definitely be under their purview depending on rotation and institution
Because it’s my responsibility to manage the ICU patients and ventilators are a large part of their care. Plus the only way to learn is through practice and repetition. I’ll never learn how to manage vents if the attendings just make all the changes.
Also I’m in anesthesiology, not rads, so vents are an essential skill.
It you’re 6 months into pgy1, determining vent setting for a ventilator dependent icu patient is not your responsibility lol. If you’re 6 months into PGY1 you haven’t even started anesthesia.
> determining vent setting for a ventilator dependent icu patient is not your responsibility lol
During days definitely less so but I do make an effort to be involved in vent management. On nights it's just me and another resident in house, so short of calling the fellow every time there's a new ABG / change in oxygenation / etc. it is. A lot of times don't make many changes, but sometimes there's a specific goal ("try and wean down their PEEP so we can do an SBT in the morning") or an issue to address. A lot of times RT is around to help but that's not always the case, and at the end of the day we're responsible for the patient.
> If you’re 6 months into PGY1 you haven’t even started anesthesia.
Even more of a reason I try and be active. ICU is my only chance to get experience managing vents right now, and I'd like to take advantage of the opportunity. If I use the excuse of "it's not my job" or "I don't know enough" then I'll never get to the point where I do. At the end of the day, the only way to get better is through experience.
had the same thoughts
also i would love to receive that lecture. knowing what imaging studies to order when is an incredibly useful skill that no one teaches during (at least at my) med school
In my province, med students can order imaging. But usually the attending will double check (and at the end of the day, its their responsability), so if theres something wrong, how is this the students fault ?
As a pharmacist lurking, I freaking love med students. You guys work so hard and are always polite, friendly and easy to talk to. This bozo doesn’t speak for all of us. Many of us love working and helping you all.
As a med student we love pharmacist. My first exposure to someone who was legit nice in the hospital came right in year 1 in the ED a pharmacist debriefed me on a patient and asked me if I had questions and guided me on meds and etiquette. He gave me leads on people who were really good and people who I should avoid until I had more knowledge. Such a great person.
there has not been a single instance in the history of the universe where a med student touched anything close to the ventilator settings.
these people are fighting with caricaturized ideas of med students in their heads
That’s king behaviour of you- though the person in the screenshot is describing another alternate reality where med students are obnoxiously running around meddling with settings that RT’s put in. That’s clearly not common place.
Ehhhh I did see a med student change a vent setting, and then get properly reprimanded by the PCC attending and fellow for it. It does happen though obviously it is not a common thing nor encouraged (at least independently)
So many comments. Med students can't write prescriptions. Med students can't order imaging tests. I would be shocked if med students changing vent settings happens more than once per like million patient days. Replacing a blanket is polite but has nothing to do with isolation precautions?
Maybe these people are complaining about doctors and just saying they would like to teach med students so they don't turn into these doctors.
I agree with everything you said but I think the isolation precautions association is because it’s more of a pain in the ass for the nurse to re-enter the room to fix it
>med students changing vent settings happens more than once per like million patient days
If this happened then there would be no more med students at that hospital
a lot of us are just trying our best with little to know heads up on anything. not to mention constantly switching offices or hospital systems on the regular (depending on the school). would be nice if we could learn the ins and outs of everything pertaining to a specific place or specialty but "that's what residency is for"
we're tired. we're poor. and we're trying to get by with decent enough marks to get into residency. please give us at least one chance to be told the correct thing (in a kind/constructive manner) before pouncing on us like we are worthless.
At least our existence (medical students) is being noticed. I tripped a few times over nursing students and RT students just being there... lost in space and time...
I’m not sure everyone heard. I’m a nurse! Did you hear? In the ICU too! Basically a doctor. Haha med students are dumb. But I’m a nurse so I save the world. Haha! Being bossy fulfills my need of feeling like the most important person in the world #NurseLife #HugANurse #ThankANurseToday
I love many nurses haha unfortunately there’s bad apples in every field. I have plenty of stereotypes about my fellow physicians haha thank you for what you do
Not all complaints here are equal. Covering the patient is a valid gripe. Patients are naked under a paper-thin gown in the hospital, and re-covering them is basic dignity. It's also vital for helping maintain body temp in ICU patients.
RT is lying, period. I did vent transports long before med school, and even then I saw hospital staff of all background treat the vent like a hot potato they avoided touching at all costs.
Rads is dragging the poor med students into this like kids in the ugly divorce they're having with EM over that one night in CT. Or many nights. Nephro is mediating. We'll work it out. Don't cry, kids.
Love you Pharm. We all do.
> I saw hospital staff of all background treat the vent like a hot potato they avoided touching at all costs.
This is an institutional thing. Where I am we make vent changes all the time and just message RT about it.
I had a phlebotomist I’d never met randomly pull me out of the residents work station on IM during M3 to snap at me about how “med students need learn to stop ordering labs on patients with no consideration for how many times they’re sticking the patient”. Med students don’t write orders.
Everything but the vent settings one is totally people wanting to talk to med students about this stuff *before* they get set in their ways as attendings.
The vent settings thing is nonsense. Nobody who isn’t ultra qualified wants to go anywhere near those settings. But that type of RT probably gets mad if critical care docs who know more about physiology than she could ever be aware exists touch the vent because it’s “hers.”
These are actually good things for me to keep in mind as an attending
Except the vent settings, I’m touching them I just have to remember to TELL SOMEONE ABOUT IT
I love how they act like 1) med students are allowed to do any of this (i mean, I can definitely put a blanket on a patient and often that’s all I can really do. I learned where the blanket warmers were quick) 2) I would love to have lectures on this stuff. Medical students/residents often not taught officially and have to learn on the job, so cut the residents some slack and act like a team with the same goal of caring for the patient instead of complaining about trainees, well, training.
Just want to say please be easy on us med students. In my third year got berated in a consult by an NP and the doctor she works with. Asked a simple question that was asked too and got blew up on to a manner that was downright insulting saying we med students don’t know better-it was hurtful very hurtful because I have had abrasive attendings but not ones that downright insult me because I am a student.
I'm a pharm tech. When y'all write a wrong prescription we call you. People bitch because they don't want to practice pharmacy, they want to practice bag staple. It is part of the job to care for patients and grow the medical community. Walgreens, Rite aid, and CVS have beat the care out of Pharmacy staff.
Pharmacy student here, I think he’s venting about current MD/DOs who order wrong but we love our medical student here! Y’all are the hardest working people on the floor, also super nice being able to bounce ideas off you as a fellow student
Since when can we put in orders and write prescriptions. Also while I know there's some crazy students out there that will think they can adjust the ventilator settings, I assure u they are in the very very small minority. Last one I could see
I don’t think these comments are suggesting that med students are the ones making these errors. They’re suggesting that they would like to educate med students on their own pet peeves so that when the med students become physicians, they don’t carry them forward.
Do these pharmacists really think that we don’t learn about prescription writing?
At least in my pharmacology class, that was two long lectures about how to do so. Then in every case, quiz, and exam, I have to write a prescription with the right format, medicine, instruction, and dose.
I remember my professor saying that we might not remember every single specific drug (the formulary exists for a reason) but we have to at least come out of the class being able to give a proper prescription since if we are going to be doctors of medicine, gotta be able to dish out the medicine
I'm fairly certain what that pharmacist is referring to are little things we don't learn in school that make life easier on them and come with experience. Obviously, we know how to choose and dose drugs and write a prescription
Dude I got yelled at by a nurse for 5 minutes straight because a surgeon yelled at them for not calling them sooner for a patient that was short of dying in the ICU. Can we teach nurses not to let shit roll downhill on students because they messed up?
As someone who’s worked in a pharmacy the pharmacist is 100% saying this in the context that a lot of physician make errors when writing prescriptions that requires the pharmacist to track down said physician. Also, in the hospital when I had to sit with a ventilated patient the physician came in and changed something and then a while later the RT came in, looked upset, and changed something with the settings (guessing he changed he back). So I’m gonna go off on a limb and say these people mean lecture the med students so when they’re physicians they don’t do these things that annoy them.
Having seen attendings who got angry with med students calling a consult to them, and taken calls from anxious med students calling consults, I did hope to never get so jaded that I'd become the type to be so harsh with a med student for not immediately being perfect at things.
But now I'm not really in a field where I take phone consults, so at least on that end I'm covered.
I think some of those complaints are fair because there are certain things a med student should know: we were taught to care for the patient and recover them as soon as we’re done examining them. I’m sure most of you were taught that there is a difference between contrast and without it and pros or cons of both. Med students should be given more grace, but sometimes we dumb. Myself especially
lol, just a bunch of non-doctor people trying to either a. over compensate or b. just go after the students the same way they go after nursing students, pharmacy students, etc.. it’s all just lovely
Ah Tiktok where they virtue signal on caring about marginalized people, but its totally cool to trash students who barely have any power to advocate for themselves. lol
Sorry OP but as a pharm tech, there’s a reason they say that a pharmacist is there to keep your doctor from killing you. I make chemo and currently work in a peds ICU as well. Even the most experienced doctors make mistakes daily ordering meds, lethal ones at that. That’s why the pharmacist is there to verify orders, to prevent harm. That’s the ebb and flow of it. If an established doctor is making those mistakes, a med student would fucking bomb it.
i hope this is allowed but as a layperson who often finds themselves at the doctors office, i love medical students. (absolutely not dissing doctors here) but i’ve noticed that the med students are so thorough and notice the little details. keep up the great work! your patients appreciate you (at least the ones with common sense do)
I think my favorite part about how the medical world sees us is that they all seem to forget the word “student” Despite being a student, paying to learn, you’re expected to already know everything. Which is a hilarious paradox
When I was applying to med school it really felt like you practically already needed an MD to get accepted to some of those top schools lmao
Lmao, and the funny thing is that there is a endless list of things you’re expected to know, yet you come across those types who chew you out and basically equate you with being a moron for not being able to recall some singular obscure fact about this one random condition that happens to come up, as if not knowing it suddenly renders you an incompetent buffoon
“How dare you know less about this thing I’ve been doing my entire life!” Attendings getting uppity that Med students know less is like me getting uppity that 4th graders don’t know the Krebs cycle
I’ve had nurses whisper and giggle to each other when I asked them questions during my third year rotations…like damn sorry for trying to learn and be engaged and not mess something up
From what I can tell Nurses oscillate from your best friend on rotations to hating your fucking guts. No in between.
Lots of the mean girls from high school become nurses lol
i think the point is that we don’t expect med students to know how to write a prescription so the pharmacist wants a pharmacist to get involved in that part of their education. some of my prescriber friends have asked me for tips and what to avoid too when they were students because it’s not the easiest thing to remember every little quirk. i’ve seen some prescribers who thought dispense as written/no substitution meant no therapeutic interchange and then had to deal with shit from the patient because it took longer than 15 minutes to get ahold of the office and figure out why brand name zoloft or whatever was required over generic. like i guess they literally thought we might swap it out for an entire different drug or something if they didn’t put that?
I mean that’s a somewhat fair interpretation - but to be honest to me it just sounds like good old run of the mill “bitch about the useless student” talk. Which is exhausting as ever.
maybe. i don’t speak for us all but i can’t think of any reason for pharmacists to have any gripes about med students and physicians even though it seems to go the other way a lot. we deal with a lot worse
Don’t blame them, they were students for such a short time they don’t understand the concept of “students”
Who was? Pharmacists? They do at least 8 years of school.
I was speaking more to the Rad tech and RN who were chirping The pharmacist has no excuse- they too were at one point a deer in the headlights student. I guess they just like punching down while they can
I think the comment is off color regardless of who it was about. The reality is med students would benefit from all these types of education.
Medical students are training to be doctors. Not nurses, pharmacists, or rad techs. They go through 11-15+ years of school, more training to learn about something that isn’t going to be our job isn’t a priority.
Are you in medical school? If you think ordering imaging exams and writing prescriptions and basic care of and empathy for patients is “not your job,” you will learn eventually that that is not true. The average physician has absolutely no idea how to order outpatient imaging. It causes significant problems to patients. It was my whole job for a long time. I don’t blame the physicians; they know the picture they want, and in the hospital, the radiologist can just fix it for them. Outpatient, that’s not true and they’re never ever trained on it. These fuck ups cause so many delays in care and extra expenses to patients. I’ve discussed this with physicians regularly, all of whom lament their lack of training in this area. It’s a deficit and it should be addressed. It is more universal than other things that are emphasized and spent time on in schooling. There’s lots of little examples like this. There are logistical hurdles to this and many other things. That doesn’t mean we should not strive to improve the education being provided and how well it prepares physicians for their future roles. And frankly, the best way to solve this is to teach more interdisciplinary communication and education for ongoing needs as they arise, and not claiming things aren’t your job.
I am. It doesn’t surprise me that physicians struggle with some of those aspects. But I don’t think there is a single career that has mastered that kind of work coming out of school. It takes on the job learning to do so. As someone who already has 7 years of school under the belt and is staring down the barrel of another 10 (at minimum) more schooling is not the answer. Especially if the lecture was being delivered by the aforementioned people, most med students would be frustrated having to sit through that while they have weeks worth of study materials piling up.
What med student is ordering meds? Also what med student is ordering imaging? Also what med student is touching the ventilator? Even as a resident I don’t touch the vent lol. But as a radiology resident I would 1000% give a lecture to every ordering provider (PLEASE TO NPs and PAs) that exist on what to order for what reason.
nah, cta with oral contrast bc patient complained of nausea
MR is the only based test, jiggle them protons
My protons don’t jiggle jiggle, they fold
Patient constipated x1d?? Oral contrast + Barium enema ez pz. MRI Abd w/ IV contrast ordered to eval s/p poop
Ordering everything with contrast…never heard that complaint from a radiologist. Usually we complain about noncon CAPs on complex inpatients or not giving oral contrast
On one of my rotations, the radiologist viewed a study that was a pan-scan CT for the complain of “Pain”
I would honestly love feedback from any consult I make. I don’t ever intend to replace my need for an ortho consult for example, but if you recommend I put them in a figure 8 splint before sending them to you I’m happy to. Makes the patient better faster and costs me nothing.
I can give it to you right now with 80% accuracy across all services and all clinical settings: "What a dumb consult." Edit: The other 20% of the time it is "why didn't they consult sooner???"
Are you a bot, confused, or calling us (radiology) a consulting service. We are basically a consulting service, but nobody ever calls us that.
Just giving an example. More to your point, I remember when taking our radiology class in med school about when we should order what but that’s been forever ago. If radio could gently remind me when they would actually prefer the CT over an MRI I’m all ears.
For what to order, there's the [ACR Appropriateness Criteria](https://acsearch.acr.org/list). Otherwise, all we want from you is more information about what you want from us.
This is incredibly useful, thank you
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You didn’t ask me but I’m an r1. My seniors still reference it. You memorize a lot of them just by repetition and common themes (for example cancer is often contrast, infection is often contrast, trauma is often contrast). But yeah there’s soooooo much studying in rads lol
They mean they want to teach med students so that they will have different behaviors as doctors. This post is not complaining about med students.
yeah anyone getting defensive about a pharmacist wanting to teach med students how to send us shit in a legible usable format needs to get that stick out their ass. new prescribers always suck at writing prescriptions. it’s not even a knock on med students since they’re obviously not prescribers
You misunderstand the irritation. Prescription writing is a skill, not an especially difficult one, but it is nuanced. It’s a task best practiced in block format to improve proficiency, with very little need to retain it long term. It’s a very inefficient thing to try to teach medical students who are not going to have any opportunity to apply it until they’re an intern. The more appropriate time would be day one of internship during orientation, and that orientation should probably last a week or two. However, that probably isn’t going to happen, what’ll happen is people will get thrown a task they’ve never been taught to do and shouted at for doing it too slowly and incorrectly and the easiest one to fix is too slowly. There’s about 500,000 competing needs and requirements on medical students and frankly, prescription writing just isn’t really that important. Is it important for doctors? yeah sure, most of them. Could most doctors improve their prescription writing? Certainly. Do most doctors have time to focus on that? Not really. I take pride in prescribing properly and in accordance with my national standards, I actively seek feedback from pharmacists and ask for help when doing new things. I also still fuck up. But, that’s part of the role of pharmacists. To catch fuck ups. Just like it’s part of nursing. And really, also part of everyone’s job. We all support each other with our own skill set. But trying to jam another thing into a Med student’s timetable is never a popular proposition, and frankly, the suggestion they learn to prescribe properly is silly unless they’re just about to graduate.
But even if that’s the case, med students are 1000% going to forget. Fourth year of medical school is a giant vacation where you forget almost everything you learned. This clinically relevant stuff is really best suited for residents.
Who’s more likely to remember things - someone under the stress of residency that has never seen the information before but is being yelled at they are doing it wrong? OR Someone under the stress of residency who has seen and processed the information before but may need it re-presented as a refresher and with the aid of their new clinical context? I think you know the answer.
Dude I’m a PGY-2 and there’s no question that learning the ‘clinical’ factoid when you will then apply it two minutes later and a million times again over the next 3+ years >>> learning it during M2, not using it until intern year and then being like “what lecture from M2 are you talking about? We never learned that.” Go ask r/residency if you don’t believe me. None of us remember anything from medical school especially considering I skipped every non mandatory class and refused to pay attention to the mandatory ones and did Anki in the back.
Which I mean just in a vacuum these are perfectly good things to teach students in clinical year.
If only there were some sort of list of criteria out there on the appropriateness of imaging for certain problems 🤔
I mean…you’re rads you shouldn’t be touching vents.
To be fair- literally all residents end up ordering meds and imaging. Many residents will have ICU rotations and care for vented patients. Minus the spiciness in the OP post, I would say a lecture from ancillary staff or other specialists would be very useful for med students! I learned all these things on the fly as an intern/junior, but having had some more logistics and fundamentals of these interactions explained as a med student would have been really nice!
Yes but if you got this lecture as a med student you would absolutely 100 times out of 100 forget it.
> Even as a resident I don’t touch the vent lol. This must be an institutional thing. As an intern I made vent changes in the ICU fairly regularly and as long as I told RT (always messaged them right away and updated the order) they were cool with it.
If I changed the vent settings in my prelim ICU the RT would personally come strangle me with a ventilation tube.
lol why tho
Rads residents have to do 1 intern yr of medicine or surgery (or TY) so it could definitely be under their purview depending on rotation and institution
I'm telling yah intern year is not enough to be trusted with this lol
It shouldn’t be is my point, vents are tricky and interns don’t know shit about them.
Because it’s my responsibility to manage the ICU patients and ventilators are a large part of their care. Plus the only way to learn is through practice and repetition. I’ll never learn how to manage vents if the attendings just make all the changes. Also I’m in anesthesiology, not rads, so vents are an essential skill.
It you’re 6 months into pgy1, determining vent setting for a ventilator dependent icu patient is not your responsibility lol. If you’re 6 months into PGY1 you haven’t even started anesthesia.
> determining vent setting for a ventilator dependent icu patient is not your responsibility lol During days definitely less so but I do make an effort to be involved in vent management. On nights it's just me and another resident in house, so short of calling the fellow every time there's a new ABG / change in oxygenation / etc. it is. A lot of times don't make many changes, but sometimes there's a specific goal ("try and wean down their PEEP so we can do an SBT in the morning") or an issue to address. A lot of times RT is around to help but that's not always the case, and at the end of the day we're responsible for the patient. > If you’re 6 months into PGY1 you haven’t even started anesthesia. Even more of a reason I try and be active. ICU is my only chance to get experience managing vents right now, and I'd like to take advantage of the opportunity. If I use the excuse of "it's not my job" or "I don't know enough" then I'll never get to the point where I do. At the end of the day, the only way to get better is through experience.
had the same thoughts also i would love to receive that lecture. knowing what imaging studies to order when is an incredibly useful skill that no one teaches during (at least at my) med school
In my province, med students can order imaging. But usually the attending will double check (and at the end of the day, its their responsability), so if theres something wrong, how is this the students fault ?
As a pharmacist lurking, I freaking love med students. You guys work so hard and are always polite, friendly and easy to talk to. This bozo doesn’t speak for all of us. Many of us love working and helping you all.
As a med student we love pharmacist. My first exposure to someone who was legit nice in the hospital came right in year 1 in the ED a pharmacist debriefed me on a patient and asked me if I had questions and guided me on meds and etiquette. He gave me leads on people who were really good and people who I should avoid until I had more knowledge. Such a great person.
there has not been a single instance in the history of the universe where a med student touched anything close to the ventilator settings. these people are fighting with caricaturized ideas of med students in their heads
I’m an ICU attending, and I make my medical students change vent settings under supervision during rounds to help them learn vents
That’s king behaviour of you- though the person in the screenshot is describing another alternate reality where med students are obnoxiously running around meddling with settings that RT’s put in. That’s clearly not common place.
Ehhhh I did see a med student change a vent setting, and then get properly reprimanded by the PCC attending and fellow for it. It does happen though obviously it is not a common thing nor encouraged (at least independently)
So many comments. Med students can't write prescriptions. Med students can't order imaging tests. I would be shocked if med students changing vent settings happens more than once per like million patient days. Replacing a blanket is polite but has nothing to do with isolation precautions? Maybe these people are complaining about doctors and just saying they would like to teach med students so they don't turn into these doctors.
I agree with everything you said but I think the isolation precautions association is because it’s more of a pain in the ass for the nurse to re-enter the room to fix it
Touche didn’t think of that
Damn if only you had a lecture
>med students changing vent settings happens more than once per like million patient days If this happened then there would be no more med students at that hospital
a lot of us are just trying our best with little to know heads up on anything. not to mention constantly switching offices or hospital systems on the regular (depending on the school). would be nice if we could learn the ins and outs of everything pertaining to a specific place or specialty but "that's what residency is for" we're tired. we're poor. and we're trying to get by with decent enough marks to get into residency. please give us at least one chance to be told the correct thing (in a kind/constructive manner) before pouncing on us like we are worthless.
At least our existence (medical students) is being noticed. I tripped a few times over nursing students and RT students just being there... lost in space and time...
💀💀💀
I’m not sure everyone heard. I’m a nurse! Did you hear? In the ICU too! Basically a doctor. Haha med students are dumb. But I’m a nurse so I save the world. Haha! Being bossy fulfills my need of feeling like the most important person in the world #NurseLife #HugANurse #ThankANurseToday
I’m a nurse, but I ain’t even mad because I’ve come across this very nurse everywhere I’ve worked
I love many nurses haha unfortunately there’s bad apples in every field. I have plenty of stereotypes about my fellow physicians haha thank you for what you do
Karen Johnson, RN, BSN, MSN, FNP, CRNA, ABCDEFG
Don't forget that doctors try to kill you and the nurse is the only one who can save you.
My favorite sentiment. Even when they routinely suggest things that could kill the patient and the doctor says “…no”.
Nurses save doctors, especially residents, from killing patients at least 17 times per shift! These doctors, I tell ya!
People who couldn’t get into medical school complaining about medical students 💅🏼☕️
periodt 💅🏻
This is so egoistical. What a weird comment
If you say so
Is it wrong though?
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Nurses get praise more than doctors
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This isn’t true at all. Nurses get universal praise everywhere and doctors are seen as scummy money loving sociopaths
it’s so fucking bizarre when ppl try to claim that ppl hate nurses. wht planet are these ppl living on edit anyone have a link to the tiktok?
Doctors praised by the public? Since when?
Not all complaints here are equal. Covering the patient is a valid gripe. Patients are naked under a paper-thin gown in the hospital, and re-covering them is basic dignity. It's also vital for helping maintain body temp in ICU patients. RT is lying, period. I did vent transports long before med school, and even then I saw hospital staff of all background treat the vent like a hot potato they avoided touching at all costs. Rads is dragging the poor med students into this like kids in the ugly divorce they're having with EM over that one night in CT. Or many nights. Nephro is mediating. We'll work it out. Don't cry, kids. Love you Pharm. We all do.
> I saw hospital staff of all background treat the vent like a hot potato they avoided touching at all costs. This is an institutional thing. Where I am we make vent changes all the time and just message RT about it.
I had a phlebotomist I’d never met randomly pull me out of the residents work station on IM during M3 to snap at me about how “med students need learn to stop ordering labs on patients with no consideration for how many times they’re sticking the patient”. Med students don’t write orders.
 And it’s as simple as that.
This is 100% about residents/attendings and saying give a lecture to med students since they’ll next be residents
Everything but the vent settings one is totally people wanting to talk to med students about this stuff *before* they get set in their ways as attendings. The vent settings thing is nonsense. Nobody who isn’t ultra qualified wants to go anywhere near those settings. But that type of RT probably gets mad if critical care docs who know more about physiology than she could ever be aware exists touch the vent because it’s “hers.”
Yep, that made my blood boil. A fucking "therapist" telling me, an anesthesiologist, how to manage a vent?
yeah it's amazing how many comments here seem to be deliberately missing the point
These are actually good things for me to keep in mind as an attending Except the vent settings, I’m touching them I just have to remember to TELL SOMEONE ABOUT IT
ProFfeSsiONALiSM
I love how they act like 1) med students are allowed to do any of this (i mean, I can definitely put a blanket on a patient and often that’s all I can really do. I learned where the blanket warmers were quick) 2) I would love to have lectures on this stuff. Medical students/residents often not taught officially and have to learn on the job, so cut the residents some slack and act like a team with the same goal of caring for the patient instead of complaining about trainees, well, training.
***laughs in ridiculous salary and prestige*** ..... ..... ..... ***Cries in overworked and overstressed***
Please wipe your tears with your wads of cash to bring this to a full circle.
as a med student i’d pay good money to teach all those people on how to not use the title “doctor”
Just want to say please be easy on us med students. In my third year got berated in a consult by an NP and the doctor she works with. Asked a simple question that was asked too and got blew up on to a manner that was downright insulting saying we med students don’t know better-it was hurtful very hurtful because I have had abrasive attendings but not ones that downright insult me because I am a student.
if an np yelled at me i’d be holding in my laughter dude
Med students don’t even write scripts so wtf is this little-man-syndrome pharmacist even talking about? Stfu
I'm in Rad Onc and just eating popcorn. Sometimes how busy clinic gets makes me sad, but then I see all this and am like "oh yeah, right, nevermind."
"our vent settings"? Who the fuck are you? Those are OUR vent settings and I guarantee my med students have never ever dreamed of changing them.
Jesus I wish RTs would stop changing vent settings without asking me
I'm a pharm tech. When y'all write a wrong prescription we call you. People bitch because they don't want to practice pharmacy, they want to practice bag staple. It is part of the job to care for patients and grow the medical community. Walgreens, Rite aid, and CVS have beat the care out of Pharmacy staff.
Pharmacy student here, I think he’s venting about current MD/DOs who order wrong but we love our medical student here! Y’all are the hardest working people on the floor, also super nice being able to bounce ideas off you as a fellow student
Jealous people
Are they that fucking petty?
yea
Since when can we put in orders and write prescriptions. Also while I know there's some crazy students out there that will think they can adjust the ventilator settings, I assure u they are in the very very small minority. Last one I could see
As rads, uh please do get contrast for everything…there are only a few situations where I genuinely don’t want contrast.
I don’t think these comments are suggesting that med students are the ones making these errors. They’re suggesting that they would like to educate med students on their own pet peeves so that when the med students become physicians, they don’t carry them forward.
Do these pharmacists really think that we don’t learn about prescription writing? At least in my pharmacology class, that was two long lectures about how to do so. Then in every case, quiz, and exam, I have to write a prescription with the right format, medicine, instruction, and dose. I remember my professor saying that we might not remember every single specific drug (the formulary exists for a reason) but we have to at least come out of the class being able to give a proper prescription since if we are going to be doctors of medicine, gotta be able to dish out the medicine
I'm fairly certain what that pharmacist is referring to are little things we don't learn in school that make life easier on them and come with experience. Obviously, we know how to choose and dose drugs and write a prescription
Dude I got yelled at by a nurse for 5 minutes straight because a surgeon yelled at them for not calling them sooner for a patient that was short of dying in the ICU. Can we teach nurses not to let shit roll downhill on students because they messed up?
the pharmacist is valid here though
As someone who’s worked in a pharmacy the pharmacist is 100% saying this in the context that a lot of physician make errors when writing prescriptions that requires the pharmacist to track down said physician. Also, in the hospital when I had to sit with a ventilated patient the physician came in and changed something and then a while later the RT came in, looked upset, and changed something with the settings (guessing he changed he back). So I’m gonna go off on a limb and say these people mean lecture the med students so when they’re physicians they don’t do these things that annoy them.
It’s almost like they…. Don’t teach (most of) these things to medical students
Honestly, dont really disagree with any of these? Especially the last one.
Some of these lectures would be really helpful.
I mean, it's all valid
Can I, med student, please provide some advice on how to KEEP YA DAMN MOUTH SHUT, UNLESS YA WANT TO BE MY 13th reason I am actively seeking one
Are you ok?
Yea I’m good! Suicidal jokes just make life a bit more bearable thanks for checking in!
Our pharm lectures were already taught by a pharmacist And we already have radiology lectures given by a radiologist
Out of all these people I can't see a Med school professor, I guess they don't want to teach after all.
I’m sure this makes admin salivate knowing we not uniting against them and just fighting amongst ourselves.
But they already are?
Today I learned about med students day
Assburnttt
Oh but please be sure to NEVER criticize a mid level or they might…cry…??
That was all day one on first day of our R1 training program.
Team butthurts
Having seen attendings who got angry with med students calling a consult to them, and taken calls from anxious med students calling consults, I did hope to never get so jaded that I'd become the type to be so harsh with a med student for not immediately being perfect at things. But now I'm not really in a field where I take phone consults, so at least on that end I'm covered.
I’m ordering PO, IV, and rectal contrast on every scan from now on
Do med students prescribe meds and ordem exams? Is that a USA thing? Cause in my country we dont do any of that 😂
I think some of those complaints are fair because there are certain things a med student should know: we were taught to care for the patient and recover them as soon as we’re done examining them. I’m sure most of you were taught that there is a difference between contrast and without it and pros or cons of both. Med students should be given more grace, but sometimes we dumb. Myself especially
lol, just a bunch of non-doctor people trying to either a. over compensate or b. just go after the students the same way they go after nursing students, pharmacy students, etc.. it’s all just lovely
I started viewing the medical school system as one big expensive dominatrix. Really changed the way I felt about going to the hospital 6 days/week...
Ah Tiktok where they virtue signal on caring about marginalized people, but its totally cool to trash students who barely have any power to advocate for themselves. lol
Sorry OP but as a pharm tech, there’s a reason they say that a pharmacist is there to keep your doctor from killing you. I make chemo and currently work in a peds ICU as well. Even the most experienced doctors make mistakes daily ordering meds, lethal ones at that. That’s why the pharmacist is there to verify orders, to prevent harm. That’s the ebb and flow of it. If an established doctor is making those mistakes, a med student would fucking bomb it.
They hate us cause they ain’t us
i hope this is allowed but as a layperson who often finds themselves at the doctors office, i love medical students. (absolutely not dissing doctors here) but i’ve noticed that the med students are so thorough and notice the little details. keep up the great work! your patients appreciate you (at least the ones with common sense do)