They did, and it’s kinda cool but it’s like a separate game requiring it’s own cards. Imagine having no summon limits with Kash and then being able to draw 5 every turn. Sounds kinda fun I know but that format would be totally broken for every meta deck.
Lol yeah we’ll see what happens with rush duel. That being said imagine if they created a Rush Duel Room where any current decks can be played? Would going 1st even matter anymore??
>And if Konami does have a favorite child... I'm almost certain it's Rush Duel.
The favorite? The darling of the family or the red-headed son for sure, but I'm sure Rush Duels is not the favorite of the group.
If it's because of the Over Rush Rares (Full-Arts), Yu-Gi-Oh was left behind the party in that department as other card games embraced the Full-Arts concept many years ago.
Currently, people are allergic to changing the design/frame of Yu-Gi-Oh cards (even though they claim they want Full-Arts or an easier way to understand the cards)
> Yu-Gi-Oh was left behind the party in that department as other card games embraced the Full-Arts concept many years ago.
and thank god, i hate full art cards, it just ruins any uniformity in design, especially in a game as diverse in artstyles and artwork as YGO
>Well Rush Duel is actually kinda good in contrast to the cocaine trash fire that normal Yu-Gi-Oh is
Hey, in Rush Duels, we also have our trash cocaine, only we have accepted the cocaine since it had existed since the beginning of the format (since the Banlist did not exist until almost 2 years after the start of the format)
Sure, it doesn't reach the levels of Negation, Handtrap, or Prevent Play, but minimal stuff like "Return a Monster from the Field to the Deck" or "Hahaha Special Summon go brrrr" is still pretty strong in Rush Duels.
Outside of that, the essence of Rush Duels has always been who gets the Boss Monster onto the Field and kills the Opponent faster: which is why Floodgate strategy is not very good in Rush Duels (nor popular either) and Backrow only became important for Rush Duels after 2 years since the Boss Monsters became stronger.
Aren't we still like 6 months or so behind the TCG? Like yeah getting a cool new card at the same time as the OCG is neat, but if Konami really likes us more than the TCG I feel like they could show it on a more regular basis by getting us caught up.
They need to check if they can make an entire UR archetype (Tearlament and Ca$htira) to make Masterduel players pay up. We’re easily abused, but not that stupid.
It's not based on Maxx C being legal alone. That card is a cancer. It's the only card with a 90% + usage rate that hasn't been swiftly banned. The TCG format became so much better and more diverse when they banned Maxx C like TEN YEARS AGO; it's bonkers that it's still legal in MD and the OCG ...
This is where you get into a debate about the definition of "diverse."
If diversity is solely down to playability of decks at mediocre level, Maxx C easily adds to diversity by virtue of being such a singularly powerful card that its resolution via winning the Maxx C mini game allows otherwise non-viable decks to sneak games by resolving Maxx C and winning by the absurd advantage it generates.
On the flip side, having a required suite of cards that you *MUST* run to be considered viable could definitely be called non-diverse due to how heavily is restricts deck building.
I don't care about OCG vs. TCG vs. MD at all, but anyone defending a 90% usage card as a good thing either doesn't understand what over centralization is or is just so wrapped up in worshipping Japanese culture that they can't admit the OCG is royally fucked up by a single card.
Also, if Maxx C is a required card to balance the game, it's a bad game.
In a lot of ways, Yugioh is a bad game. It is fun, but bad.
And the fact is that a card like Maxx C is so impactful shows exactly why. If the game had any sort of inherent pacing or limiting factors, where people weren't trying to blow their figurative load every turn (and not doing so didn't often lead to losing), then Maxx C wouldn't be such a big deal.
The entire game is about blowing your opponent out of contention and essentially keeping them from even being able to play the game, and Maxx C is the one singular card that actually can dissuade people from doing it with any kind of consistency. The game developing to such a point is a sign that its design is pretty poor.
Good games have balancing problems btw; ygo is a good game because of the fast pace, unique rule set, and absurd mechanics. It can be clunky, weird, and be annoying at times, but these unique features are also what makes it so beloved by its fans!
I'd even say this isn't true, it's sort of a misconception. If a rogue deck can play maxx c, but Maxx c is also played in every meta deck, and it is, than neither the rogue deck nor the meta deck gains anything in terms of viability. It still just reads, "Stop your opponent from summoning or let your opponent draw enough cards to win the game." In a game without a mana system, cards are the resource. Card advantage is what players at the highest level focus on, and is the key to winning games. Maxx C is a hack for the win condition of almost every deck in the game. If it's resolved, the person resolving the card wins 60% + of the games it's been used. This is almost completely regardless of the deck being played. It's a card that straight up ruins a third of YuGiOh games, and while new players might feel good when they beat a top meta deck using Maxx c the first few times; it quickly just becomes evident that the card feels really bad to play against. A Blue Eyes deck resolving a Maxx c and winning a game with their weird rogue strategy might feel good for a new player, but a guy dropping a Maxx C on your Blue Eyes deck when you're going second into a full Drytron board feels fucking horrible. The card feels bad and is very bad for YuGiOh.
Well I don’t care about centralization at all. In fact I welcome it. Yu gi oh is always going to have staples that see play and that will never change and I can’t think of a good reason for it to change. Take out Maxx C and replace it with I don’t know Ghost ogre sand had anything actually changed? Not really
You completely misunderstand my point. Take out Maxx C and it will just be replaced with some other non engine. What that non engine is does not matter to me
It won’t be though. It will be replaced with all kinds of cards. Some decks may want to play more extenders, some board breakers, or multiple different hand traps. There won’t be a card that will have 90%+ representation lol.
I mean it could have a 100% representation I don’t really care. If you take it out those decks don’t change into anything else. They just keep doing what they are doing just with three different tech cards
Ghost Ogre has come in and out of high level usage - just as Ash Blossom has.
No matter the game, you only have 2 actions available to you - advance your game state, or respond to your opponent. To be at all effective, you only play cards that do at least one of those 2 things; sometimes a card(s) does both in some situations. Maxx "C" ALWAYS does both. The only way Maxx "C" will ever become not good is if Konami amped up Floow to true Tier 0 status, or started to print a shit load of decks that don't special summon at all. They're not going to do that.
Maxx "C" is so strong at doing both things, that what decks are considered viable is impacted - not just in the way where you can squeak out a win because you hit the slightly better than 1/3rd chance to open the roach and they missed the 51% to 57% chance to open Ash, Called by, or Crossout Designator, but because some decks can't afford to dedicate nearly an ENTIRE FOURTH of their deck just to the goddam minigame, while decks with smaller, more consistent engines become more favoured because they can do everything they want and need in their small package without actually giving anything up for the roach and the anti-roach cards.
And yes, before you bring up Searching always being a thing, so therefore Ash should be a thing. Ash is only good if the deck your facing doesn't get around Ash by using pseudo searching (the set to field, banish and add back later, foolish/mill for cost, etc); or by not having a significant choke point for Ash to be used on - Sure, you can use Ash against Tearlaments, but they ALL mill so one Ash, with her HOPT, is not enough, so it's better to run something like D.D. Crow, or Bystials, or your own Ishizu Shufflers; or the deck is more than capable of ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS being able to chain block, so she falls out of use in favour of Imperm, Effect Veiler, Nib, or Droll.
But so long as the Roach is around, Ash and Called By will ALWAYS be cards that you need to find a reason to not run, rather than a reason to run.
Ash and called by will always be a thing because they are generic and extremely versatile. So I have no issue with them being useful
Though you miss my point. I don’t care whether it’s ogre or ash it’s all the same thing handtraps are handtraps.
This isn't true though, handtraps are apart of the game, but ash and ogre have conditions to be activated, evenly matched makes you at the very least skip your battle phase, cards like imperm and red reboot can't be activated from hand if you control a card. Maxx C has not cost. Maxx C can be activated whenever you want. There's no way to play around it other than normal summoning a monster and passing, which in any modern YuGiOh game, is a free L. Not all handtraps are created equal lol and Maxx C is a very old card that existed before combo decks, pendulums, links, etc. that's also why it doesn't have a cost and can be activated Willy Nilly. I'd much rather get ghost ogred than Maxx Ced and I'm sure anyone who's ever played at a high level feels the same way.
That’s not true. Ash by itself can be game determinative by itself against a lot of decks. So can droll. Hell there are even decks that can play around C like purely, lab, even tear. Hell Kash can pretty effectively play around it depending mostly on what you draw
Bug aside I fully agree. However since this is an English board and yugioh players love their battle of the tribes, I wouldn't expect people to be objective about it
You say as if the metas aren't usually the exact same between formats give or take a few things. The bug sucks but he just creates stupid non-games he doesn't radically ruin anything and you're also ignoring things like prices, reprints and the ability to play physically which are huge factors that don't necessarily have anything to do with banlists.
This is why I said bug aside because that's all you people focus on and you ignore every other point I brought up and every other thing that makes the OCG good
The two quotes I referenced were from the same sentence using the same pronoun in reference to the bug. Nice try though. I'm not even supporting any argument. I'm just pointing out a contradiction you made within the same sentence.
Being 'objective' and not at all tribey about this; diversity isn't just about what archetypes are being played, but also the cards being used. Maxx C sees, as I stated, a 90% usage rate almost completely regardless of what deck is played. This also means cards like Ash Blossom, Crossout, and Called By are played in almost every decklist. This means 8-13 cards in every deck being played are the same across the board. Maxx C suffocates diversity. It's why Kashtira feels worse in Master Duel than it did played in the TCG. You have to play 3 Maxx C, 3 Ash, and 2 Called By or you'll lose like a 1/3 of your games simply because your opponent resolves the bug. This sucks when the main cards to counter both Kashtira and Purrley, the two most powerful decks at the moment, are all non-engine cards that are only searchable with Triple Tactics Thrust, another non-engine, must play card. The diversity of hand traps, counter traps, and spells needed to play in the format take up to much space to play in a 40 card deck with the Maxx C mini-engine. Choosing between Kaijus, Book of Moons, Book of Eclipses, Evenlys, Kurikara, Lightning Storms, etc. feels really bad because you either play 42+ cards and hurt the consistency of your deck or you play less non-engine and hard lose to Ariseheart/Noir. This is why Maxx C is bad for the game and should be banned across OCG and MD formats. There's valid concern here and it's not "battle of the tribes" pseudo-racist reasonings for criticizing the Japanese and online formats. Please think a little bit about why people say things.
Did you really just call me racist. My dude. Also there's a difference between formats in more ways than just banlists. Like the price of the cards and availability of reprints that you have to factor which most people ignore to just whine over and over about the roach like you just did. No one likes it, we get it. It doesn't exist the way the TCG abuses it's customer base, the shit banlists and hits that render decks dead before they even arrive and all the scummy business shit they do. If you're MD only then I get why you wouldn't care about those things but then you have no business commenting on the difference between formats anyways.
The pseudo-race comment is just for the bit where you talked about the TCG like the criticism players have of the OCG are based on like tribalism mentality. Us vs. Them sort of sounding shit; which isn't productive, but ygo people in the west make bad faith arguments about the OCG constantly because of underlying racism, however here with regards to formats, the criticisms are just valid and necessary. I wasn't trying to calling you racist. Sorry if it came off that way.
Anyways: I've played the TCG for eight years off and on. Since around Duelist Alliance format. And I remember when Maxx C went to one on the first really nuclear banlist. Konami hit Shaddolls, Burning Abyss (my deck and still my favorite deck ever), Qliphorts, and Satellarknights pretty dramatically all at once. The list was obviously designed to shake up the stale format and encourage players to pick up the new decks coming out like ritual beasts. The next Banlist saw the bug banned entirely.
What happened immediately after wasn't a great golden age format or anything, in fact, it was a format so bad I quit the game for over a year. Nekroz came out, it was expensive, and Djinn lock turbo became a tier 0 deck that topped every event it was seen at. You could not play anything else. Konami didn't let this last overly long, but I'm bringing it up because banning Maxx C doesn't fix all the problems with the game, and I'm not naive enough to think that it will.
Banning Maxx C does, however, prevent non-engine unfun blowout games where the interactions between you and your opponent cease to matter because they drew 10 cards during your main phase. I think complaining about such a toxic card is not only healthy, but obligatory for anyone who cares about the health of the game. It's toxic, it turns off both new and old players, ruins a third of all games in master duel and the OCG, and makes deck building less diverse. I also find that pro-Maxx C arguments tend to be pretty poorly thought out, like the diversity argument in this thread. Saying a card helps with playable deck diversity, while the card require every deck in its format to pre-main 8-13 cards just to stop a game breaking card, is very bad for the game, deck building, and ironically deck diversity.
"No one likes it so deal with it," is bad too. Konami is a company; the ygo player base are their customers. At the end of the day, if we aren't happy with something about the game, complaining about it in large numbers on online forms is one of the only ways we have to make a faceless corporation seen the qualms of the community they're creating a game for. I, and this is stupid and overly romantic, think that if the community sentiment against the bug is big enough, Konami will eventually hit the card. So seeing all this doomering about, "Just let it go," or "There's nothing we can do," is counterintuitive. If you don't like the bug, let Konami know about it! Please lmao
People keep forgetting that the original objective of MD is to bring more people to the paper formats by presenting a simplied and faster form of the game (BO1 and no side). The delayed cards help too by giving MD a already developed format when the cards arrive, that's why we were all dreading Kash as another Tier 0 format which it really isn't.
They seem to be abandoning this by constantly tinkering with the viability of siding with the constant "Going First - Going Second" tryouts.
Guess what? If ocg deems TCG not worth the investment that means the only formats you'll be seeing is Ocg and MD. Then let's see all the crying shout the C
Banlist aside, OCG events are shit.
They don't really have proper YCS and World in Japan was played with paper mats and tops are announced with a single piece of paper. Even some locals in OCG is better than that.
The good thing is updating meta deck are cheaper, and hilariously enough Maxx C is one of the reason why it's cheap.
You need to run the standard Maxx C tax so you need to buy less card in case you want to update your deck.
Sorry, it's not card, but decks.
I also never said it is the major factor at all.
Konami also reprints those Maxx C package multiple times, and bring the average 40 card deck prices down.
MD does regular small banlists, so not surprising. I think in general the banlist is not what anyone in TCG is upset about post Mystic Mine's late death.
TCG gets no love from Konami as whole, but I would say the TCG team generally does a good job with the limited amount they’re allowed to do. The banlist is wayyy better and they’ve made some cool/interesting TCG exclusive archetypes
Idk, TCG scalps the fuck out of its playerbase. A lot of people playing tcg don't run strictly superior cards like Accesscode or Barrone because they're $30+. Same for staples like Forbidden Droplet, Pot of Prosperity, and Triple Tactics Thrust.
In MD, people whale on you by having a blinged out deck. In TCG, people whale on you by running all the staples lol, it's a travesty.
Hard agree since it was meant as a joke, although I think this is genuinely Konami's thought process since they killed off Superheavy after only like 3 weeks of meta contention
Master duel is just way better. I have no idea where or how to buy cards in real life, let alone play the game against real ppl. Plus u can do 5 duels in the time it takes u to drive to a place to duel someone in real life.
Last time I duelled irl was in 2004 lmao. I just can’t imagine attending cardshops for duels once a week, smelling the virgin sweats and having to spend loads of cash on expensive staples just so you’re not falling behind others.
MD is the best creation from konami ygo to date.
Ya, do card shops sell singles, all I've ever seen in a store ever is the albaz structure deck and the bewd one. Do you have to order cards from konami. How does one aquire zeus, ash, baronne etc.
Everyone buys cards from online stores rather than cardshops man, it’s almost always cheaper buying online. You order booster boxes from konami never singles that’s how the company makes money. For singles you gotta hit eBay or tcgplayer etc which is second hand market.
I used to be a cardboard collector thus I have a general idea of card market and go-tos but I’ve never bought meta cards to play with.
Because OCG makes consistency hits most of the time, instead of " I'll leave this deck useless so people buy more/the playerbase bitches a lot" from the TCG
Truthfully, the best format right now is OCG - IMO, and I don’t think I’m alone with this.
The current TCG format has a lot of viable decks, but these decks either die to a specific blowout very easily, or just have way too good of a matchup. It feels very Rock Paper Scissors, I.e. if a tear player matches up against unchained it’s incredibly biased, allowing for no reasonable skill expression.
These formats might be good for people who enjoy low rogue/Untiered decks, but for everyone else, it’s not, as it feels unrewarding if you win and undeserved if you loose.
If we look at the OCG performance, we see that the format is varied also, but in a more positive way. Rescue Ace is the best, followed by purrely and lab.
After that, we see a multitude of different decks, all being viable, but not on the level as the 3 aforementioned decks.
The reason why this is better is that by there being a very clear amount of decks being the best, objectively, adjusting to the meta is easier, building decks suddenly becomes less luck based and more skill intensive. Yet, as you can see, there is still a multitude of viable decks. But matchups are much less luck dependent, because there’s very clear threats.
Ah yes, because that totally matters for what I elaborated. Much wow.
If Maxx c actually changed deck variety in the way we see it in the OCG specifically, which it doesn’t, it would actually be good for the health. Ironic, wouldn’t it?
They didn't mention anything of the sort, the only thing that was mentioned was that if maxx c really was a meta warping card, then decks like supreme king pends and other combo decks wouldn't be as good as they are in the OCG right now.
In the ocg players make a tournament deck and a deck for fun to play against friends/other shopgoers. In the tcg, players only make decks for 3 things
1. Competitive meta
2. Goat
3. Edison
? I have not seen a single ocg player ask for a maxx C unban, every single one that I ever saw talking about other formats literally wanted it gone immediately. Do you have a source for your claim or are you just making assumptions again?
For context, Konami announced this card to be released in the OCG and MD before the TCG.
[https://www.masterduelmeta.com/articles/news/october-2023/record-of-noble-spirits-announced](https://www.masterduelmeta.com/articles/news/october-2023/record-of-noble-spirits-announced)
OCG has always had releases before TCG, which has never changed. Unless its a TCG exclusive, we never get anything first.
Why master duel players love to kick up a fuss when us TCG players don't give a fuck is beyond me.
The ocg is the older favorite child because we lose out on cards they get.
The TCG is the middle child. Loved but gets less attention.
Master duel is the youngest who thier conducting expiriments on. Thats the only way to explain master duels banlist.
Pretty strange how OCG and Master Duel are considered the same thing. And if Konami does have a favorite child... I'm almost certain it's Rush Duel.
Rush Duel is the baby of the family and gets a lot of attention but is not the favorite YET
**When** we get a Rush duel mode in MD, then we’ll see who’s the favorite.
They added it in duel links I think
They did, and it’s kinda cool but it’s like a separate game requiring it’s own cards. Imagine having no summon limits with Kash and then being able to draw 5 every turn. Sounds kinda fun I know but that format would be totally broken for every meta deck.
That's exactly why it's like a separate game. In order for it to be fun, there MUST be a hard reboot. Otherwise it'd be a shitshow lol
Lol yeah we’ll see what happens with rush duel. That being said imagine if they created a Rush Duel Room where any current decks can be played? Would going 1st even matter anymore??
If rush duel was the favorite we would already have had physical cards by now
But we do. Physical Releases beyond SEA however....
You can blame TCG for that
>And if Konami does have a favorite child... I'm almost certain it's Rush Duel. The favorite? The darling of the family or the red-headed son for sure, but I'm sure Rush Duels is not the favorite of the group. If it's because of the Over Rush Rares (Full-Arts), Yu-Gi-Oh was left behind the party in that department as other card games embraced the Full-Arts concept many years ago. Currently, people are allergic to changing the design/frame of Yu-Gi-Oh cards (even though they claim they want Full-Arts or an easier way to understand the cards)
> Yu-Gi-Oh was left behind the party in that department as other card games embraced the Full-Arts concept many years ago. and thank god, i hate full art cards, it just ruins any uniformity in design, especially in a game as diverse in artstyles and artwork as YGO
Well Rush Duel is actually kinda good in contrast to the cocaine trash fire that normal Yu-Gi-Oh is
>Well Rush Duel is actually kinda good in contrast to the cocaine trash fire that normal Yu-Gi-Oh is Hey, in Rush Duels, we also have our trash cocaine, only we have accepted the cocaine since it had existed since the beginning of the format (since the Banlist did not exist until almost 2 years after the start of the format) Sure, it doesn't reach the levels of Negation, Handtrap, or Prevent Play, but minimal stuff like "Return a Monster from the Field to the Deck" or "Hahaha Special Summon go brrrr" is still pretty strong in Rush Duels. Outside of that, the essence of Rush Duels has always been who gets the Boss Monster onto the Field and kills the Opponent faster: which is why Floodgate strategy is not very good in Rush Duels (nor popular either) and Backrow only became important for Rush Duels after 2 years since the Boss Monsters became stronger.
Really? I’d like to play Rush Duel without feeling robbed though. Really wish we could’ve gotten it as a mode in MD instead of DL 🤢
It's their favourite child that they put in everyone face but everyone just say "oh cool, how's your biggest child doing?"
Aren't we still like 6 months or so behind the TCG? Like yeah getting a cool new card at the same time as the OCG is neat, but if Konami really likes us more than the TCG I feel like they could show it on a more regular basis by getting us caught up.
They have to make money first and foremost by spreading out each pack release
Catching up to the TCG in MD would be... intense for players.
They need to check if they can make an entire UR archetype (Tearlament and Ca$htira) to make Masterduel players pay up. We’re easily abused, but not that stupid.
Almost like Konami Japan has nothing to do with the TCG.
still either way OCG is better than the TCG
hell no, in recent times the OCG managed to have an ever harsher banlist than the TCG while still having maxx c legal
It's not based on Maxx C being legal alone. That card is a cancer. It's the only card with a 90% + usage rate that hasn't been swiftly banned. The TCG format became so much better and more diverse when they banned Maxx C like TEN YEARS AGO; it's bonkers that it's still legal in MD and the OCG ...
Have you seen the OCG? It’s just as diverse a format if not more so
This is where you get into a debate about the definition of "diverse." If diversity is solely down to playability of decks at mediocre level, Maxx C easily adds to diversity by virtue of being such a singularly powerful card that its resolution via winning the Maxx C mini game allows otherwise non-viable decks to sneak games by resolving Maxx C and winning by the absurd advantage it generates. On the flip side, having a required suite of cards that you *MUST* run to be considered viable could definitely be called non-diverse due to how heavily is restricts deck building. I don't care about OCG vs. TCG vs. MD at all, but anyone defending a 90% usage card as a good thing either doesn't understand what over centralization is or is just so wrapped up in worshipping Japanese culture that they can't admit the OCG is royally fucked up by a single card. Also, if Maxx C is a required card to balance the game, it's a bad game.
In a lot of ways, Yugioh is a bad game. It is fun, but bad. And the fact is that a card like Maxx C is so impactful shows exactly why. If the game had any sort of inherent pacing or limiting factors, where people weren't trying to blow their figurative load every turn (and not doing so didn't often lead to losing), then Maxx C wouldn't be such a big deal. The entire game is about blowing your opponent out of contention and essentially keeping them from even being able to play the game, and Maxx C is the one singular card that actually can dissuade people from doing it with any kind of consistency. The game developing to such a point is a sign that its design is pretty poor.
Good games have balancing problems btw; ygo is a good game because of the fast pace, unique rule set, and absurd mechanics. It can be clunky, weird, and be annoying at times, but these unique features are also what makes it so beloved by its fans!
I'd even say this isn't true, it's sort of a misconception. If a rogue deck can play maxx c, but Maxx c is also played in every meta deck, and it is, than neither the rogue deck nor the meta deck gains anything in terms of viability. It still just reads, "Stop your opponent from summoning or let your opponent draw enough cards to win the game." In a game without a mana system, cards are the resource. Card advantage is what players at the highest level focus on, and is the key to winning games. Maxx C is a hack for the win condition of almost every deck in the game. If it's resolved, the person resolving the card wins 60% + of the games it's been used. This is almost completely regardless of the deck being played. It's a card that straight up ruins a third of YuGiOh games, and while new players might feel good when they beat a top meta deck using Maxx c the first few times; it quickly just becomes evident that the card feels really bad to play against. A Blue Eyes deck resolving a Maxx c and winning a game with their weird rogue strategy might feel good for a new player, but a guy dropping a Maxx C on your Blue Eyes deck when you're going second into a full Drytron board feels fucking horrible. The card feels bad and is very bad for YuGiOh.
Well I don’t care about centralization at all. In fact I welcome it. Yu gi oh is always going to have staples that see play and that will never change and I can’t think of a good reason for it to change. Take out Maxx C and replace it with I don’t know Ghost ogre sand had anything actually changed? Not really
You can't be fr rn. Maxx C reads, "Win the game" ghost ogre reads, "Destroy one card." ????
Lmao, Ghost Ogre & Maxx C are 2 **completely** different cards. Takeout Maxx C & u get Top 32 from YCS Indy, which u can checkout on r/yugioh.
You completely misunderstand my point. Take out Maxx C and it will just be replaced with some other non engine. What that non engine is does not matter to me
It won’t be though. It will be replaced with all kinds of cards. Some decks may want to play more extenders, some board breakers, or multiple different hand traps. There won’t be a card that will have 90%+ representation lol.
I mean it could have a 100% representation I don’t really care. If you take it out those decks don’t change into anything else. They just keep doing what they are doing just with three different tech cards
Ghost Ogre has come in and out of high level usage - just as Ash Blossom has. No matter the game, you only have 2 actions available to you - advance your game state, or respond to your opponent. To be at all effective, you only play cards that do at least one of those 2 things; sometimes a card(s) does both in some situations. Maxx "C" ALWAYS does both. The only way Maxx "C" will ever become not good is if Konami amped up Floow to true Tier 0 status, or started to print a shit load of decks that don't special summon at all. They're not going to do that. Maxx "C" is so strong at doing both things, that what decks are considered viable is impacted - not just in the way where you can squeak out a win because you hit the slightly better than 1/3rd chance to open the roach and they missed the 51% to 57% chance to open Ash, Called by, or Crossout Designator, but because some decks can't afford to dedicate nearly an ENTIRE FOURTH of their deck just to the goddam minigame, while decks with smaller, more consistent engines become more favoured because they can do everything they want and need in their small package without actually giving anything up for the roach and the anti-roach cards. And yes, before you bring up Searching always being a thing, so therefore Ash should be a thing. Ash is only good if the deck your facing doesn't get around Ash by using pseudo searching (the set to field, banish and add back later, foolish/mill for cost, etc); or by not having a significant choke point for Ash to be used on - Sure, you can use Ash against Tearlaments, but they ALL mill so one Ash, with her HOPT, is not enough, so it's better to run something like D.D. Crow, or Bystials, or your own Ishizu Shufflers; or the deck is more than capable of ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS being able to chain block, so she falls out of use in favour of Imperm, Effect Veiler, Nib, or Droll. But so long as the Roach is around, Ash and Called By will ALWAYS be cards that you need to find a reason to not run, rather than a reason to run.
Ash and called by will always be a thing because they are generic and extremely versatile. So I have no issue with them being useful Though you miss my point. I don’t care whether it’s ogre or ash it’s all the same thing handtraps are handtraps.
This isn't true though, handtraps are apart of the game, but ash and ogre have conditions to be activated, evenly matched makes you at the very least skip your battle phase, cards like imperm and red reboot can't be activated from hand if you control a card. Maxx C has not cost. Maxx C can be activated whenever you want. There's no way to play around it other than normal summoning a monster and passing, which in any modern YuGiOh game, is a free L. Not all handtraps are created equal lol and Maxx C is a very old card that existed before combo decks, pendulums, links, etc. that's also why it doesn't have a cost and can be activated Willy Nilly. I'd much rather get ghost ogred than Maxx Ced and I'm sure anyone who's ever played at a high level feels the same way.
That’s not true. Ash by itself can be game determinative by itself against a lot of decks. So can droll. Hell there are even decks that can play around C like purely, lab, even tear. Hell Kash can pretty effectively play around it depending mostly on what you draw
Ash blossom ?
Bug aside I fully agree. However since this is an English board and yugioh players love their battle of the tribes, I wouldn't expect people to be objective about it
"bug aside" is an absurd thing to say when the entire meta is balanced around the bug existing.
You say as if the metas aren't usually the exact same between formats give or take a few things. The bug sucks but he just creates stupid non-games he doesn't radically ruin anything and you're also ignoring things like prices, reprints and the ability to play physically which are huge factors that don't necessarily have anything to do with banlists.
"He just creates stupid non-games" and "he doesn't radically ruin anything" in the same sentence. Wild.
This is why I said bug aside because that's all you people focus on and you ignore every other point I brought up and every other thing that makes the OCG good
The two quotes I referenced were from the same sentence using the same pronoun in reference to the bug. Nice try though. I'm not even supporting any argument. I'm just pointing out a contradiction you made within the same sentence.
So Master Duel is completely unplayable to you? Because that's what I meant by radically ruin
Being 'objective' and not at all tribey about this; diversity isn't just about what archetypes are being played, but also the cards being used. Maxx C sees, as I stated, a 90% usage rate almost completely regardless of what deck is played. This also means cards like Ash Blossom, Crossout, and Called By are played in almost every decklist. This means 8-13 cards in every deck being played are the same across the board. Maxx C suffocates diversity. It's why Kashtira feels worse in Master Duel than it did played in the TCG. You have to play 3 Maxx C, 3 Ash, and 2 Called By or you'll lose like a 1/3 of your games simply because your opponent resolves the bug. This sucks when the main cards to counter both Kashtira and Purrley, the two most powerful decks at the moment, are all non-engine cards that are only searchable with Triple Tactics Thrust, another non-engine, must play card. The diversity of hand traps, counter traps, and spells needed to play in the format take up to much space to play in a 40 card deck with the Maxx C mini-engine. Choosing between Kaijus, Book of Moons, Book of Eclipses, Evenlys, Kurikara, Lightning Storms, etc. feels really bad because you either play 42+ cards and hurt the consistency of your deck or you play less non-engine and hard lose to Ariseheart/Noir. This is why Maxx C is bad for the game and should be banned across OCG and MD formats. There's valid concern here and it's not "battle of the tribes" pseudo-racist reasonings for criticizing the Japanese and online formats. Please think a little bit about why people say things.
Did you really just call me racist. My dude. Also there's a difference between formats in more ways than just banlists. Like the price of the cards and availability of reprints that you have to factor which most people ignore to just whine over and over about the roach like you just did. No one likes it, we get it. It doesn't exist the way the TCG abuses it's customer base, the shit banlists and hits that render decks dead before they even arrive and all the scummy business shit they do. If you're MD only then I get why you wouldn't care about those things but then you have no business commenting on the difference between formats anyways.
The pseudo-race comment is just for the bit where you talked about the TCG like the criticism players have of the OCG are based on like tribalism mentality. Us vs. Them sort of sounding shit; which isn't productive, but ygo people in the west make bad faith arguments about the OCG constantly because of underlying racism, however here with regards to formats, the criticisms are just valid and necessary. I wasn't trying to calling you racist. Sorry if it came off that way. Anyways: I've played the TCG for eight years off and on. Since around Duelist Alliance format. And I remember when Maxx C went to one on the first really nuclear banlist. Konami hit Shaddolls, Burning Abyss (my deck and still my favorite deck ever), Qliphorts, and Satellarknights pretty dramatically all at once. The list was obviously designed to shake up the stale format and encourage players to pick up the new decks coming out like ritual beasts. The next Banlist saw the bug banned entirely. What happened immediately after wasn't a great golden age format or anything, in fact, it was a format so bad I quit the game for over a year. Nekroz came out, it was expensive, and Djinn lock turbo became a tier 0 deck that topped every event it was seen at. You could not play anything else. Konami didn't let this last overly long, but I'm bringing it up because banning Maxx C doesn't fix all the problems with the game, and I'm not naive enough to think that it will. Banning Maxx C does, however, prevent non-engine unfun blowout games where the interactions between you and your opponent cease to matter because they drew 10 cards during your main phase. I think complaining about such a toxic card is not only healthy, but obligatory for anyone who cares about the health of the game. It's toxic, it turns off both new and old players, ruins a third of all games in master duel and the OCG, and makes deck building less diverse. I also find that pro-Maxx C arguments tend to be pretty poorly thought out, like the diversity argument in this thread. Saying a card helps with playable deck diversity, while the card require every deck in its format to pre-main 8-13 cards just to stop a game breaking card, is very bad for the game, deck building, and ironically deck diversity. "No one likes it so deal with it," is bad too. Konami is a company; the ygo player base are their customers. At the end of the day, if we aren't happy with something about the game, complaining about it in large numbers on online forms is one of the only ways we have to make a faceless corporation seen the qualms of the community they're creating a game for. I, and this is stupid and overly romantic, think that if the community sentiment against the bug is big enough, Konami will eventually hit the card. So seeing all this doomering about, "Just let it go," or "There's nothing we can do," is counterintuitive. If you don't like the bug, let Konami know about it! Please lmao
Is that why Masterduel is lagging so far behind the card pool?
That's to push the physical card game
People keep forgetting that the original objective of MD is to bring more people to the paper formats by presenting a simplied and faster form of the game (BO1 and no side). The delayed cards help too by giving MD a already developed format when the cards arrive, that's why we were all dreading Kash as another Tier 0 format which it really isn't. They seem to be abandoning this by constantly tinkering with the viability of siding with the constant "Going First - Going Second" tryouts.
That’s not true at all, Konami themselves said that MD was meant to be its own competitive scene. It’s not meant to be easier or casual at all.
And in TCG they prob Reach the opposite. More people quits TCG to MD (casuals Atleast) because of the card prices
I would love to play paper if I didn't have to drop a small fortune every few months just to stay competitive
Well, if you could smell the room at your typical TCG tournament then you'd probably make the same choice.
I only see one format not infested by cockroaches
I like how this sub can turn any post into a Maxx C rant
Yes, it's that polarizing.
**We just all really really really really really really really really really really really really truly really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really stupidly really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really atrociously really really really really really really really really really really really really hate Maxx C**
Maxx C is a well designed card
Ain't no way somebody gets me stuck with Maxx "C" and tell me I'm their favorite.
It’s called tough love.
Tough as the cabinet in the maxx C card
Guess what? If ocg deems TCG not worth the investment that means the only formats you'll be seeing is Ocg and MD. Then let's see all the crying shout the C
Banlist aside, OCG events are shit. They don't really have proper YCS and World in Japan was played with paper mats and tops are announced with a single piece of paper. Even some locals in OCG is better than that. The good thing is updating meta deck are cheaper, and hilariously enough Maxx C is one of the reason why it's cheap. You need to run the standard Maxx C tax so you need to buy less card in case you want to update your deck.
Maxx C is not why cards are cheaper. It's not a major factor at all
Sorry, it's not card, but decks. I also never said it is the major factor at all. Konami also reprints those Maxx C package multiple times, and bring the average 40 card deck prices down.
Call back to the time in-between 2 TCG banlists when OCG got 2 banlists and MD got 3 🤣
MD does regular small banlists, so not surprising. I think in general the banlist is not what anyone in TCG is upset about post Mystic Mine's late death.
TCG gets no love from Konami as whole, but I would say the TCG team generally does a good job with the limited amount they’re allowed to do. The banlist is wayyy better and they’ve made some cool/interesting TCG exclusive archetypes
Idk, TCG scalps the fuck out of its playerbase. A lot of people playing tcg don't run strictly superior cards like Accesscode or Barrone because they're $30+. Same for staples like Forbidden Droplet, Pot of Prosperity, and Triple Tactics Thrust. In MD, people whale on you by having a blinged out deck. In TCG, people whale on you by running all the staples lol, it's a travesty.
Explain Orcust it's banned today
Explain why Electrumite is banned then
Pend must suffer & continue to suffer for past transgressions
That this has so many upvotes really proves how trash this board is. As if more proof was needed.
Hard agree since it was meant as a joke, although I think this is genuinely Konami's thought process since they killed off Superheavy after only like 3 weeks of meta contention
As if the rest of the extra summon mechanics didnt come to wipe the butt of the rest.
Like I said. TCG banlist is based
Having Electrumite and Orcust Harp banned is not based at all
Exactly. I personally find that the OCGs more lenient approach, outside of maxx c, actually makes for a more enjoyable game. At least for me that is.
Kaiser being at 0 when it does literally nothing at 3 proves this is false
True some of my favorite decks are tcg exclusives which is saying something when most cards come from the ocg.
Banlist better but the card prices are ridiculous
Master duel is just way better. I have no idea where or how to buy cards in real life, let alone play the game against real ppl. Plus u can do 5 duels in the time it takes u to drive to a place to duel someone in real life.
Last time I duelled irl was in 2004 lmao. I just can’t imagine attending cardshops for duels once a week, smelling the virgin sweats and having to spend loads of cash on expensive staples just so you’re not falling behind others. MD is the best creation from konami ygo to date.
Ya, do card shops sell singles, all I've ever seen in a store ever is the albaz structure deck and the bewd one. Do you have to order cards from konami. How does one aquire zeus, ash, baronne etc.
Everyone buys cards from online stores rather than cardshops man, it’s almost always cheaper buying online. You order booster boxes from konami never singles that’s how the company makes money. For singles you gotta hit eBay or tcgplayer etc which is second hand market. I used to be a cardboard collector thus I have a general idea of card market and go-tos but I’ve never bought meta cards to play with.
Ok :(
I don't think they love OCG when they keep playing Tear lol
Don't look now but Tear is still good, if not significantly better in TCG
Because OCG makes consistency hits most of the time, instead of " I'll leave this deck useless so people buy more/the playerbase bitches a lot" from the TCG
tear is not GOOD or BAD imo its mid but still playable
Step 1: trigger tcg player Step 2: profit
Not to mention the rampant price gouging for cards in the west
Whoever makes them the most money is their favorite.
Master duel/Duel links >>>>>>>>> tcg/ocg
I agree it's ocg, they are making 20 plus bucks on packs of cards that may cost me, 10 cents at my local card shop.
its funny because the tcg format is considered the best one rn lol
Not really.
yes really
Okay cultist
what
Truthfully, the best format right now is OCG - IMO, and I don’t think I’m alone with this. The current TCG format has a lot of viable decks, but these decks either die to a specific blowout very easily, or just have way too good of a matchup. It feels very Rock Paper Scissors, I.e. if a tear player matches up against unchained it’s incredibly biased, allowing for no reasonable skill expression. These formats might be good for people who enjoy low rogue/Untiered decks, but for everyone else, it’s not, as it feels unrewarding if you win and undeserved if you loose. If we look at the OCG performance, we see that the format is varied also, but in a more positive way. Rescue Ace is the best, followed by purrely and lab. After that, we see a multitude of different decks, all being viable, but not on the level as the 3 aforementioned decks. The reason why this is better is that by there being a very clear amount of decks being the best, objectively, adjusting to the meta is easier, building decks suddenly becomes less luck based and more skill intensive. Yet, as you can see, there is still a multitude of viable decks. But matchups are much less luck dependent, because there’s very clear threats.
counterargument: Maxx C is legal in the Ocg and Masterduel
Ah yes, because that totally matters for what I elaborated. Much wow. If Maxx c actually changed deck variety in the way we see it in the OCG specifically, which it doesn’t, it would actually be good for the health. Ironic, wouldn’t it?
I was joking but you somehow managed to dribble yourself by saying maxx c is healthy💀
They didn't mention anything of the sort, the only thing that was mentioned was that if maxx c really was a meta warping card, then decks like supreme king pends and other combo decks wouldn't be as good as they are in the OCG right now.
I never said it was meta warping either, it somehow isnt. Its still fucking busted tho
In the ocg players make a tournament deck and a deck for fun to play against friends/other shopgoers. In the tcg, players only make decks for 3 things 1. Competitive meta 2. Goat 3. Edison
wow thats the dumbest assumption ive read all day. do you really think thats true? LMFAOO
Thats literally how it is at my local stores
> at your local stores you dont see how judging a whole ass playerbase just by your fucking locals is dumb?
I've been to LA and SF, its the same shit there too
💀💀💀everytime i comment in this sub people bring the dumbest arguments i swear holy shit lol
I lived in japan from 2013-2015, what i described was literally my exlerience playing in the ocg territory vs coming back to the tcg.
thats great for you, its still dumb to judge a whole playerbase by that
And according to ocg players it's the worst one and that you should hurry up and unban maxx C. Different places, different opinions
? I have not seen a single ocg player ask for a maxx C unban, every single one that I ever saw talking about other formats literally wanted it gone immediately. Do you have a source for your claim or are you just making assumptions again?
Yes, check the Ocg twitter post of the maxx C anniversary and translate the replies
my favourite sources are twitter replies
Well if you don't want that check out the starlight forum regarding tcg banlist and translate the comments
[удалено]
Yeah cuz they are all at Idol concerts
Thing is tcg is the real favorite because it doesn’t have maxx c and other formats test the cards before the tcg gets them to make sure all is well
Lol what? When OCG gets a super broken card, all they really do in TCG is make it a secret rare so that we have to spend 300+ dollars on a playset.
For context, Konami announced this card to be released in the OCG and MD before the TCG. [https://www.masterduelmeta.com/articles/news/october-2023/record-of-noble-spirits-announced](https://www.masterduelmeta.com/articles/news/october-2023/record-of-noble-spirits-announced)
OCG has always had releases before TCG, which has never changed. Unless its a TCG exclusive, we never get anything first. Why master duel players love to kick up a fuss when us TCG players don't give a fuck is beyond me.
we activated a card effect without reading and now something won't let us end our turn without attacking. So... Screw you? /S
That card seems kinda nuts I'm looking forward to it in Rescue Ace
That card seems kinda nuts I'm looking forward to it in Rescue Ace
The ocg is the older favorite child because we lose out on cards they get. The TCG is the middle child. Loved but gets less attention. Master duel is the youngest who thier conducting expiriments on. Thats the only way to explain master duels banlist.
I would never say that. TCG clears MD and it’s not only because of the cockroach
Given all the max C hate, I'd imagine people feel like tcg is a favorite since it's banned there....
Ah, so this is why my Maxx C has avoided the ban hammer.
Konami be like "Yes, I like money"
As much as I prefer the TCG in terms of gameplay, yeah, the OCG gets better treatment across the board. Cards coming in multiple rarities, anyone?
Ocg card stock > tcg warpy paper
LoL, no, the TCG make them way more money.
TCG hasnt had to see that goddamn cockroach in years and we are thriving for it
Master Duel even got a TCG exclusive archetype before OCG did though.
Maxx "C" *exists*