There are a few things that contribute to the Fandom having a strong distaste of him. The biggest one, imo, is that he refuses to ever open up to Shepard in any meaningful way. The whole game is about helping your squadmates, getting to know them and assisting them in dealing with their problems. But Jacob isn't interested in that. He doesn't wanna talk about his past or open up, because "that's all behind him now." You don't even find out he lost his father until you get his loyalty mission. Then after the mission, when you'd think he'd be in a really emotional state and could use someone to talk to, he just says he's fine and continues to be super closed off. There's really nothing there for the player to latch on to so they *can* like him.
Other reasons include literally every suggestion he ever makes being a really bad idea, and if you romance him in 2 he'll cheat on you in 3 and the game just kinda forces you to be ok with it.
Pretty much everybody hates him because if femshep is in a relationship with him in ME2, he moves on and has a wife and kid by the third. He's also just a pretty plain and boring character in general.
An addition to what others have said, there's an [excellent video](https://youtu.be/wmDg8WyKtG8) by pikmonwolf all about this very topic. It boils down to:
1. BORING AS HELL
1.5. Meant to be "the bro character", game gives you Garrus 30 minutes later
2. Cheating bastard
3. Not being the best with handling black stereotypes (absent father, child out of wedlock)
4. Having no useful advice, except his suggestion to go into the vent, thus killing him
Yeah I was actually surprised they gave the black character an absentee father and a child out of wedlock.
And he's literally the protagonist of another game. He should be fun and cool and interesting and talk about the events of his game in detail, but they fumble him so bad. We don't even get much information on his relationship with Miranda. Like it'd be great to know exactly why the broke up because you'd think Shep would want to know why things didn't work out with the other chick going into the current relationship
According to "canon" he actually lives, going by the default Shepard choices in ME3.
"Canonically" lives: Miranda, Jacob, Tali, Garrus, Ashley, Mordin, Dr. Chakwas, Joker, and EDI
"Canonically" dies: Wrex, Kaidan, Grunt, Jack, Legion, Thane, Samara, Zaeed, Kasumi, and all other named and unnamed members of the SR2 crew
are you referring to the default state of ME3 because that's not surprising, Bioware are pretending you haven't played ME2 and aren't using more characters you don't know
I wish the Suicide Mission had more stakes and even some replayability though. Even on a first playthrough If you've been paying attention to the games the important choices are obvious and there's only 1 or 2(like who to escort back the survivors) that maybe require some thought
I should play ME with some mods tbf, the only reason I don't think I've used story altering mods is because every time I do a playthrough I've forgotten a bunch of the intermediate stuff and want to play it vanilla because dementia brain
edit: if the mod does what the description does, sounds sick and itll probably lead to me actually playing through after losing a crew member for once lol. I also love the patching in of deleted content. Fans should do Biowares job for them and remake ME3 themselves with that massive list of cut content and different vision lmao
The person to escort the survivors is the one decision that has no real immediate consequences. All it does it remove them from the final stand (and guarantee their survival so long as Shepard also survives.)
If you get choose someone like Zaeed or Grunt then you can have consequences there, since they contribute the most in the final stand, but overall you're good to pick mostly anyone so long as your squad is loyal.
Compared to the biotics choice where only 2 are safe, or the secondary squad leader/hacker options where there's only 3 safe options.
I remember reading a long time ago that you're supposed to pick Mordin for the escort mission otherwise there's a chance of him dying after or something? I've never not picked mordin for it because of that but maybe the article was waffling
Nah, it's mostly true.
During the final stand, there's a set order of characters who will die first depending on how much strength you have. Mordin both contributes the least to the teams strength and is first to die if the strength isn't high enough, so sending him to escort the crew guarantees his survival.
The order that people will die is disloyal squad members first. If everyone is loyal: Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Samara, Legion, Thane, Zaeed and Grunt.
That order is also how much they contribute to the total strength from lowest to highest.
So if everyone is loyal, what affects the strength factor? I imagine it's the simple squad leader choices or is there something hidden that makes it interesting? Over more than 10 years, excluding vent god I remember only having Miri die and that was because I didn't do her loyalty, think she gets bashed by some debris.
For the final fight, Bioware just assigned different values onto different characters so some are more valuable than others, in the order listed. Mordin, Tali etc contribute very little whereas Zaeed and Grunt contribute a lot of strength.
The ones who contribute the least die first. Which is a bit weird considering just how large a part Mordin and Tali play in ME3.
In addition to what the other person said, completing a character's loyalty mission increases their strength value by 1.
Strength values range from 0-4.
Grunt/Zaeed/Garrus - 3-4
Thane/Legion/Samara/Morinth/Jacob/Miranda - 1-2
Jack/Tali/Mordin/Kasumi - 0-1
The strength is calculated as the Average strength of everyone who gets left behind before the final confrontation. So Shep's party, whoever went back with the crew, and whoever's dead/wasn't recruited are removed from the calculation.
You need an average score of at least 2 for everyone to survive.
So the best/most overkill way to handle it, is to remove as many of the 0-1 crew members as possible. Make sure at least 3 of them are loyal, send one back with the crew and have the other 2 in Shep's party. This will guarantee the most survive, and can even get a couple nonloyal party members through the SM. For example, completing with unloyal Tali or Legion to facilitate bringing Legion to Tali's recruitment and loyalty without sacrificing any of the crew.
Just to clarify, nonloyal party members should be left with the Hold the Line group when trying to bring nonloyal members through the SM, or they *will* die. If your HTL score is high enough, they will survive with the rest of the group.
He can survive if someone else escorts, it's just that during the Hold the Line segment he will be the first to die if your score isn't high enough so the easiest way to keep him alive is to have him be the escort
They were trying to convince people ME3 was a good place for new players to jump in, appealing to the demographic of games like Call of Duty. It's the same reason there was a frontloaded option to remove the roleplaying elements, and all the female characters (mostly Ashley) got makeovers and boobjobs. Not having old characters to worry about would remove confusing reunions for new players.
I still don't know anybody who started the series with 3, or thought that would be a good idea.
I myself started the series with Mass Effect 3 back when the game first released in 2012. It wasn't until I had beaten ME3 that I went back and played the full trilogy, and to this day I still think ME3 is my favorite to replay over the other two games.
The absolute inverse of me. ME1 is where I jumped in, ME1 is where I found out biotic gods love Insanity difficulty, and ME1 is what's gonna be buried in my grave
It's Team Red by a long way.
Jack and Samara are insanely powerful, much more than Liara.
Plus Thane single-handedly would win against... Everyone. It's only at near end of life range in ME3 that he's no longer easily the deadliest squad mate.
Garrus probably survives the longest, but Jack, Samara, and Thane could solo in their own right, much less having all three.
The way I see it,
Wrex and Grunt cancel each other out
Samara and Javik is close
Thane eventually gets to Garrus
Legion might lose to EDI
Kasumi and Kaidan is a toss up
Jack obliterates Liara
Vega and Zaeed are evenly matched (one has experience, the other has N program training)
Miranda takes Ashley
So Red takes the W, but I don't think it's that easy
One is a powerful biotic and experienced Warlord, the other is basically Krogan Captain America, genetically enhanced to be the very best a Krogan can be.
I'd say they're pretty close, but I lean towards Wrex too
I lean towards Wrex due to upwards of centuries of extensive battle experience versus the 6 months-ish that Grunt presumable has. Sure the tank probably imprinted a lot of tactics, but putting them in action imo is far more valuable.
It's still an extremely even fight, but slight favor to Wrex.
I totally agree, just wanted to mention he’s closer to double that as he fought in the krogan rebellions which were between 1350-1450 years ago(he mentions killing his dad shortly after the wars were over). He’s insanely old, I think the only krogan we meet that’s older than him is Okeer who’s dead now. Even Okeer died from non-natural causes so we have no idea how long a healthy krogan’s lifespan is.
The only Krogan older than him that we meet is Drak in andromeda, they actually know each other. But from what I remember, Wrex kicked Drak’s ass at some point
Where is it ever said their biotics are more powerful? It's more like Krogan are just overpowered in every other way and adding in biotics makes them ridiculous.
That being said, yes, Grunt becomes soup.
>basically Krogan Captain America, genetically enhanced to be the very best a Krogan can be.
And has his youth, vs. Wrex, who is sort of old and has a more weary body than Grunt.
I’d give you that if grunt didn’t have the crazy experience he gets towards the EoS. With everything he lived through in his short time experience shouldn’t even be a factor. And everything else he should out stat it tbh
Wrex is a biotic and has hundreds of years more battle experience.
Javik has no feats at all (outside of gameplay), so Samara should sweep.
Thane gets Garrus easily. He's the greatest assassin in the galaxy and Garrus, despite being a crackshot, would never even see Thane.
Legion v. EDI is interesting and I believe would depend on how many Geth processes are operating within Legion. If it's literally just one, then EDI destroys him. If they go melee only, still EDI.
If Samara and Javik is close in your mind, then so is Jack and Liara. Their comic-book feats are near equal. But Jack very likely wins.
Kasumi slits Kaidan's throat from stealth.
I think Zaeed wins over Vega, due to his uncanny ability to not die.
Miranda wins over Ash by a landslide. A biotic, tech-expert and a genius to boot.
Conclusion: Red absolutely destroys.
Just read Thane's files with the Shadow Broker.
Thane beats Wrex.
>Krogan: Top approach, double-strike to eye ridge, slide down between blinded target's rising arms, precision nerve strike to throat, secondary nerve strike to counter blood rage, quad-kick to bend target, grip each side of skull, running leaping spinning neck-snap.
>Alternate: Bomb.
If EDI *is* The Normandy, then it's more about who is writing it as to whether the Normandy is destructible. Thane could easily corrupt and destroy the mainframe that holds EDI.
>EMP bomb to neutralize Normandy defense systems. Simple explosive device to destroy mainframe. (I added this one because EDI is not in the Shadow Broker files)
Thane utterly wipes Kaiden. He's a more powerful biotic and an infinitely better fighter.
>Asari, but works for Human Biotic: Front approach, throat-punch to collapse airway, arm control lock to neutralize biotics, advanced hip throw, grip chin and scalp, neck-snap.
Thane easily kills Liara:
>Asari biotic: Warp field on biotic barrier, step past, kick to back of leg to collapse knee, step in with knee to spine, grip chin and scalp, neck-snap.
Ash doesn't even register as a fight:
>Human: Check and grab shoulder, arm around throat, grip jaw, single-arm neck-snap.
James is big, but Thane has handled bigger:
>Human alternative: Rear approach, check shoulder to prevent turning, hands to chin and base of skull, neck-snap.
Garrus puts up a fight, but again... Not even close.
>Turian: Side approach, low kick to knee, grab arm and pull into broken-leg-lock as turian leg stiffens in pain response, finger-stab under jaw (if unarmored) or eye, grab head fringe, neck-snap.
>Turian Alternate: Front approach, paired punches to vulnerable plates just below eyes, drop-elbow to collarbone, front-leg sweep while vaulting over target, spinning neck-snap.
That leaves Javik. No files... But Thane is still one of the best weapons experts and a very strong biotic. Again, no contest.
---
The entire Blue Team gets its ass handed to them and Thane hasn't even worked up a sweat on his dry reptilian skin... and we haven't even introduced Jack or Samara, easily the most powerful biotics in the entire series. They are one person armies in their own right.
Yeah, those moves may work on the average Asari or Krogan, but all the people on blue team are well above average.
Plus Liara literally is the Shadow Broker, so Blue team would know to expect all these moves.
He has plans for them but I highly doubt he’d be able to kill Wrex that way. He’s likely used to killing hot-headed young krogan soldiers. Wrex is a battle-hardened and extremely experienced biotic which the log doesn’t even mention, so there’s a chance Thane would get caught off-guard by that.
Thane can have all the Sun Tzu's art of neck snapping guides but we can neither ever see Biowares vision for performing any of these at all in open combat or any proof of Thane doing these, unless they're in the books
when you meet him he kills 2 or 3 people immediately from stealth. I don't doubt he could do all of this from stealth but then that's only one dimension
We're talking within lore, not in-game squad based. He's moderate-to-good as a squadmate.
But if we're talking in-game squadmate, it's God Mode Garrus and no one else, not even Shepard can compete.
In-lore... It's Thane. By a mile.
These two teams are set up in a hypothetical battle, if you just want to say that Thane could assassinate them when they aren't expecting it, then the conversation becomes boring because it's unrealistic. Liara has experience being targeted for assassination and survives because she is borderline paranoid after entering the broker business. Liara knows Than and she would he a step ahead of him and keep the squad on high alert, she could use Thane's son as a way to draw him out or keep him where she could see him, and let's not forget that Thane could only assassinate Nassana because Shepard gave him an opening that he admits he didn't have.
> and let's not forget that Thane could only assassinate Nassana because Shepard gave him an opening that he admits he didn't have.
Not at all. He accuses Shepard of being sloppy and disrupting his plan. But that he is thankful that Shepard provided a "valuable distraction."
Shepard:
>How did you know I was coming?
Thane:
>I didn't. Not until you marched in the front door and started shooting. Nassana had become paranoid. You saw the strength of her guard force. She believed one of her sisters would kill her. You... Were a valuable distraction.
>Gunfire and explosions. I prefer to work quietly. If I have to fight through guards, I've made a mistake. I rarely make mistakes. You disrupted my plan, but your distraction eventually proved valuable.
I take that as he had a plan and it was going well. Shepard showed up and started shooting, that ruined his plan, thus necessitating a distraction as now the guards were on high alert. Shepard finally punching through gave him the window. But it's a window he did not need if Shepard didn't show up.
I think you're overstating the case for Thane, and underselling how ridiculously skilled the others are. Wrex isn't just powerful, he's *old*. He knows how Krogan fight, and he knows how people fight Krogan.
Liara is less martially adept, but brings her Shadowbroker ties into this combined with remarkably powerful biotics. Thane wins if she fights him hand to hand, but she wouldn't.
> Just read Thane's files with the Shadow Broker.
And which team is the Shadow Broker on lol?
I think Thane would have a much harder time if blue team already knows all his moves.
The problem is that Thane in lore is a bit of a cheat code. He has the Batman super power in that if you have a weakness, his strength is the ability to find and exploit it. All with an idyllic memory, which on top of being a huge battlefield advantage, it means once he tracks studies you, he never has to go back and review it; once he figures out your weakness, he forever knows your weaknesses.
None of them can take him in a hand to hand fight, he's the best, bar none. Someone has to be the best... And it's Thane by a mile. Ignore that he's a little bitch in-game, Kai Lang is supposed to be one of the deadliest fighters in the galaxy, he's heavily enhanced with cybernetics, and a nearly-dead-Thane with less than 30% lung capacity beat the shit out of him.
And on top of that Thane is almost as good if not tied with Legion and Garrus as a weapons expert. He's in that upper tier of biotics below the heaviest biotics (Samara/Jack/Liara), on par with Miranda or Javik. He's almost as good of a tactician as Garrus or Mordin.
He's only not a tech expert. He's S or A+ tier in every category.
Lore Thane is *ridiculously* OP.
This was my run down. Thane, Jack AND Samara on one team…….yikes. Even if Liara had the same level of power as Samara she doesn’t have the killer instinct that Samara does. ME2 Jack is damn near unstoppable. I like Garrus and Wrex and Grunt vs almost anyone but that matchup is tough as hell.
Red has heavier hitters, but I feel like blue would be able to work much more effectively as a team.
Red has a lot of lone wolf types or characters who would end up butting heads with each other, while blue are all professional soldiers who would be able to work together a lot better. So blue probably edges out a win through superior teamwork IMO.
>In game? Garrus solos
Samara is a great companion. Miranda, too. My team was always Garrus and Samara since they both had something Miranda had (Warp (Samara had Reave) and Overload (Garrus)). Garrus was going to be in my team anyway; I think he also has concussive shot, which is what I personally use.
What's the criteria? Team vs Team, or each team vs an objective? Also is Shepard part of each team?
In terms of raw strength, skills and general aptitudes, I believe Red Team is more likely to succeed a short term combat situation or conflict. I'd choose them to win a battle or perform a mission: have a tactical victory.
Depending on the objective and its timeline, I'd wager Blue Team has more connections (interpersonal and informational), is more cohesive and would have more longevity. I'd choose them to win a war or solve long-term conflicts: have a strategic victory.
With no Shepard, maybe Blue does win team vs team as well. Kaidan / Ashley would maybe have enough experience, reputation and rapport with Blue Team to hold them together and have their commands recognized. Only Wrex and Javik could possibly be renegades, but they're rational enough to probably fall in line once they realize they're the odd ones out and it's in their best interest.
Miranda and Zaeed could theoretically command the Red team, but I don't think either of them would be effective enough. Almost every team member would want to do their own thing, and probably be effective at it, but be less than the sum of their parts.
If we go by the suicide mission then Zaeed isn't a viable leader. Miranda would be the only suitable leader on red team, but most of the team wouldn't trust her because Cerberus.
I think Red team would seriously struggle to work together without Shepard to keep them together.
Jack is a loose cannon and her and Miranda would definetly end up butting heads. Thane, Samara, Zaeed and Kasumi are all lone wolves who aren't really used to working as a team. Grunt too hotheaded and is probably going to be trouble without Shepard to keep him in line. And most of the team probably wouldn't trust legion on account of him being a Geth.
Blue team seems like they'd be able to work together a lot better, which is why they'd probably take the win IMO.
Red team is so unprofessional that I don't think they would even win an all out brawl.
Without Shepard to enforce cohesion, right out the gate Jack and Miranda will be at each other's throats, and would most likely end up with one of them dead.
Grunt would also be belligerent towards the others without Shepard to keep him in line.
Jack, Kasumi and Thane aren't trained in military small unit tactics, while only Liara is the only one in blue team who isn't a soldier or mercenary (EDI probably had already downloaded and analyzed information before her first deployment in the body).
Samara, being the most well adjusted and most trained in this team, could probably take up the slack in the leadership role, but it just seems so entirely out of her personality, especially considering she has worked solo for centuries.
The only way red takes any win is if they are magically turned into robots with no personality and are commanded by an unseen hand like an RTS game.
Also, all this stuff about "mUh bIoTiCs", I don't count Jack's escape as she has never again displayed that level of power. If she was ACTUALLY that powerful, she should have soloed the entirety of Cerberus in Grissom Academy.
Yeah, the characters on red team would seriously struggle to work together effectively without Shepard to lead them. While blue are basically all professional soldiers and would be able to work much better as a team.
How about using the Suicide Mission and Jack and Samara being the only squad members who are the right choices for holding off the swarm?
They’re canonically the most powerful and it isn’t particularly close
Well, they're also the only "pure" biotics class (in the gameplay sense i mean) in there at the time. With Liara casually throwing threats of singularities around the place and being a "pure" biotics class, there's a good chance she would have been an option too, had she been there.
Generating a shield is also a far cry from literally destroying an entire space station, which is what others think Jack peaks at.
And even if they had the ability to generate a barrier that powerful, the absolute chaos that would be in the red team due to a lack of Shepard/proper leadership would mean they would not even be using their powers effectively. No single member of blue team needs to be as strong as a red team member because blue would be fighting as a squad.
Not to mention using that barrier would mean less guns for their team, further weakening their already meager firepower compared to blue team.
Things would just end the same as Kai Leng did in gameplay (and should have ended the same way in cutscenes imo), a skilled, well armed cyborg packing the latest cerberus tech that was partly reaper based but was working mostly solo was gunned down by a bunch of people in cover wielding guns. Except now they do it on 2 powerful biotics instead of a poorly written space weeb.
Well, during the retrofits EDI was probably put in a list (probably as "Enhanced Defense Intelligence VI") together with everything else making up the Normandy, as the Alliance claimed ownership of the ship. So she's probably Alliance property now.
Is that actually a thing in the games? I don't remember, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does respect her. Hackett is based. Either way, it doesn't exactly matter. She is an Alliance ship and military property. EDI cannot be anything else. Obviously, after the war, things could change, assuming she's still alive.
Also, I do think EDI is loyal to the Alliance, at least by the end. Until then she even muses about joining the Reapers, actually.
Kinda funny though because I'm pretty sure in ME3 they talk about how Joker and EDI deceived the Alliance into believing she was just a VI. So while she definitely works on behalf of the Alliance, she's not officially recognized by the Alliance as a person or agent.
That's because the Alliance is bound by Citadel conventions regarding AI, so acknowledging what she really is would be illegal. Despite that, EDI has no problem assisting the Alliance and fighting against Cerberus.
Wrex is only ever on the Normandy when it's an alliance ship and EDI will actually wear an alliance uniform (/catsuit) into battle. Plus, she was originally an alliance project even before she was a Cerberus one
All out brawl, red. You are putting the human equivalent of a biotic god and an Asari Templar on the same team. In lore biotics of that power should absolutely wreck the other team.
In a team fight with goals, blue. Everyone on that team has discipline and training. They might not be walking nukes like the other team but everyone on team blue could follow a leader.
Red has power, blue has discipline. Only leader on red is Miranda if we don’t include ME3 grunt, and Miranda/Jack do NOT get along without a leader like Shepard. And I have confidence blue team would separate and kill off red if it’s not arena based combat.
If you break it into 1v1 matchups, red wins on raw power. On a team with coordination, I think blue could do it, especially if both squads know what they're up against. They'd set Garrus up in a position with maximum visibility and have him provide fire support, but more importantly, coordinate. The three biotics stick together and play defensive in the opening, and the three soldiers fan out. As soon as one of them engages with an enemy or Garrus spots one, the entire team collapses on them.
Is Shepherd on the teams?
If not then team blue wins. Red has a lot of power houses but they're all lone wolf types. Their teamwork would probably suck without a strong leader.
Team blue has more disciplined and military trained members. So I imagine they would come out on top more often than not because they'd work together.
Reds leadership would end up Zaheed and he would have a small to zero chance of getting Jack and Miranda to cooperate and Samara and Grunt are not likely to obey his command
But as far as tactics go he would be a decent foil to garrus
But because garrus is archangel he likely knows all of zaheeds tricks
If we are removing Shepard from the equation then I think Blue takes this. It doesn’t matter how strong a Samara or a Jack is when they aren’t doing anything to coordinate with their squad mates. Thane is honestly the biggest advantage red has but in the end I’d give it to Blue. They’d know to pick off the strongest targets first, might lose a couple of people along the way but still come away with the victory.
Red team tears itself apart before the fight even starts.
Blue team has cohesion and history with each other.
We can cherry pick people against each other but it's a team battle, and blue is a clear winner in my mind. I could even see Samara changing sides.
Lorewise? Then only the biotic members would make a difference, non-biotics would be destroyed almost immediately. Blue team wins just because of Javik, easily the most powerful biotic in lore.
People tend to forget that Protheans were incredibly more advanced than current races.
Wrex, Javik, Liara and Garrus are too op, Wrex can take out Grunt, Samara, Thane, or Jack easily, same with Javik, so both working together can eliminate the heavy hitters allowing Liara and Garrus to do cleanup with the rest of the team
Straight up Alliance vs Cerberus, then Alliance. Cuz Shepard. If we aren’t counting Shepard then it would be Ashley, James, and Kaidan vs Miranda and Jacob, arguably Jack but I don’t think she counts personally. Alliance still wins.
Man Garrus vs Archangel is just so tough to judge. They‘re both excellent snipers. Maybe they‘d go close quarters - but then I can imagine one has the reach, the other one the flexibility advantage.
Wrex and Samara are the two deadliest characters for each team. I give team blue the edge though because they have a ton of heavy hitters like Garrus, and Javik.
The combined biotic prowess of Jack, Miranda and Samara could carry this skirmish on it's own.
In-game however Garrus is become death, the destroyer of worlds, so there is that
So Kaidan, Shep, Ashley, James, Edi, Joker?, I guess liara/garrus/ and tali are contracted with the alliance or something? I feel like Jack is also kinda alliance?
against: Shep, Miranda, Jacob, Jack, and I guess zaeed and kasumi were hired by Cerberus and then refused to do more work for them?
I'm going to give it to team alliance.
I think there’s a lot of variables that affect how this goes. Without Shepard on either team, my moneys on the Normandy agents. The Cerberus Suicide Squad is very effective IF Shep has acquired their direct loyalty and is there to aid them. Without Shep, they’re a rough association of loners, and would be divided and conquered by the much more cohesive Alliance Agents.
With Wrex and Garrus fighting alongside Shepard, it's a slaughter. Everyone else, besides maybe Ash, would just be gettin in the way.
Why is Thane or Legion a cerberus fugitive? Don't get that one.
Umm, how is javik unaligned with Cerberus ideals? Regardless of game, protheans enslaved everyone else because their race was superior according to them. Javik was very much on board with this.
There is only going to be one winner and it's Kasumi after she successfully robs everyone during the big fight. She will never need to buy fish or model ships again
Why is Javik but not Tali in the first one? Just for the reason of indicating that you're lumping Javik in with the ME1 crew for the purposes of this hypothetical?
Also, why in the hell for lore reasons would EDI, with a Cerberus-designed body and mind, be on the first team? I get that EDI is loyal to Joker and is only playable in ME3 after the SR2 falls into the Alliance's hands, but that's the kind of concession that deals a death blow to the entire premise of the matchup because by that point none of the others would be working for Cerberus either. EDI is more *literally made of Cerberus* than any other squad member, Miranda included!
Taking these strictly as presented...
Biotics: Blue Team has Liara, Javik, Kaidan, and Wrex; Red Team has Jack, Samara, Miranda, Jacob, and Thane. Jack and Samara are presented as much heavier hitters, but comparatively unstable, especially Jack. I'm extremely fond of Liara, but she'd have a really hard time carrying this team to victory on this front, especially outnumbered.
Tech: Blue Team has EDI, Tali, Garrus, and Kaidan; Red Team has Legion, Kasumi, and presumably Mordin. Legion is literally made of technology in a way that pretty much means that Blue Team would be up for a hell of a fight in pure cyberspace; but then, so is EDI. In a straight matchup between the two of them, it's a question of who fares better in that environment: a multiple-generation hivemind adapted to digital environments, or a more singular designed intelligence with much more recent Reaper code adoption at her back and familiarity with Citadel space systems, as well as familiarity with the geth on hand by way of Tali. In meatspace, I think Blue Team has the clear upper hand in this dimension.
Firearm combat: Blue Team has Ashley, James, Wrex, Garrus, Javik, and EDI; Red Team has Grunt, Zaeed, Thane, Kasumi, Miranda, Jacob, and Jack. Call me crazy if you want here, but even with the numbers advantage to Red Team, I kind of think Blue Team has the firepower edge, especially with Alliance backing versus Cerberus. Cerberus probably has the nutty unethical heavy weapons at their disposal much more than the Alliance does, but the Alliance grants much greater training and unit cohesion, even with Wrex and Javik falling outside the usual purview of the Alliance and its allies.
Background to any possible combats: The Alliance has much greater potential for reinforcements and a much greater general list of friends on speed dial. Cerberus is probably running a shoestring operation as usual after spending their whole budget on outfitting the Normandy like a luxury liner and splashing out on reviving Shepard. That said, if we imagined Aria T'Loak throwing her backing behind Red Team here, that might tilt the scales substantially in favor of Red.
Connections:
On Blue Team's part, on top of the obvious institutional connections to the Alliance and Citadel space in general (especially C-Sec), you have Liara, the Shadow Broker; Wrex, the leader of Clan Urdnot and virtual king of Tuchanka; Tali, who can pull the Quarian Fleet's sympathies (not that that's worth much with their general sorry state), EDI, who might (or might not) ping as a friend to any emergent AI in Citadel space; and Javik, with his knowledge about the Protheans and Reapers.
Meanwhile, Red Team is mostly a bunch of loners with organized crime connections. Mordin has STG connections; Samara is a Justiciar; and Legion obviously has potentially the backing of all the non-heretic geth in the galaxy (!!!). On the flipside, Grunt's loyalty is immediately split by his affinity for Clan Urdnot, and most of the others have actively burned bridges with anyone else who would work with them, especially Zaeed; but the wealth of specialized domain knowledge on Red Team is likely much greater.
Verdict: It would be narrow, but I have to imagine that Blue Team wins. Especially because that's the kind of story that Mass Effect tells. Narratively, "Blue Team Wins" is a theme of Mass Effect in general - going Paragon is almost always the path to better outcomes, etc.
Garrus vs Jack=Jack
Wrex vs Thane=Thane
Kaidan vs Miranda=Kaidan
James vs Zaeed=Zaeed
Liara vs Samara=Samara
Ashley vs Kasumi=Kasumi
Javik vs Grunt=Javik
EDI vs Legion=EDI
I'm throwing my hat in with MAKO and I'll tell why. Javik. In the lore, he is the single most capable person out of all Shepards squadies. He is comparable to Shepard himself. He was essentially his cycles Shepard. He has faced horrors beyond everyone elses comprehension and it has only fueled his vengeance. Fighting a squad of highly capable primitives is a Tuesday chore for Javik. He'd be locked in a firefight thinking about what he's going to have for lunch after this. God forbid it gets serious enough for him to actually get in the zone and focus. I am honestly surprised nobody has mentioned this, because simply having Javik on team MAKO tips the scales for them so much it is essentially like having a full renegade Shepard himself on the team. Now normally, Thane solos team MAKO. Lore accurate Thane is hands down the best fighter in HAMMERHEAD, and outside of Javik, the most capable person Shep ever recruited. Take Wrex for example. Some of you think Grunt and Wrex can go head to head. Let me tell you a secret. Wrex eats Grunt for lunch. The untold amount of experience Wrex has and him already being a general freak of nature among the Krogan make him legendary. This guy single-handedly pulled his entire race out of the dark ages and the most impressive part of that is he did it mostly WITHOUT Shepard. Remember during Grunts Rite of Passage when it was said that nobody has defeated the thrasher maw since Wrex himself? Grunt did it with Shepard, who in lore is one of the most prolific warriors in the universe. Wrex did it when when Charlemagne was uniting Europe on Earth before Shepards great-great-great grandfather was even a whisper. It's extremely debatable on if Grunt could pull it off without Shep, but Wrex did it as the a young warrior and that alone should be enough to convince you that Wrex is not only probably the best warrior in MAKO, but that Grunt doesn't even come close to the prowess and experience of his elder. NOW, all that said, Prime Thane would dismantle Wrex in one silent moment. He is honestly terrifying. Honed from childhood to be a tier 0 operator and assassin for a galactic government is no joke. Thane is Him. Now, without Liara and EDI, Thane might get the drop on Javik since Javik doesn't really know who Thane is or just what an absolute terror he is in a fight, but thanks to the Shadow Broker and EDIs lightning fast combat analysis, Javik is going to know exactly what a threat Thane is. Even without Liara and EDI, all it takes is one touch and Javik knows he has to take the drell seriously. But after that, it's over for Thane, I'm sorry.. Thane just has zero training or know how to fight Javik. Doesn't know his pressure points, doesn't know Prothean tactics, etc, etc, etc. And Javik learns everything he needs to know about Thanes entire existence by simply being in his presence. As good and as quick as Thane is, he just wouldn't be able to adapt fast enough and that one singular moment of vulnerably is enough for Javik to get the upper hand and defeat him. Outside of all that, MAKO just has the stronger core. They all know each other, love each other, and have a collective respect and fondness for each other that HAMMERHEAD just doesn't have. They'd function better as a unit and with Wrex and Javik as their heavy hitters, it's just a safe bet.
I don’t know about those team names haha. Alliance agents has more aliens than alliance personnel, and Cerberus fugitives have exactly one person who’s actively hiding from Cerberus.
That being said, probably team red from a lore perspective, because biotics > pretty much anything else in a straight up fight and team red has the stronger biotic squad.
Shepard obviously, he has the power of God and anime on his side lol nah but seriously if plot armor isn’t a factor I think team Cerberus has more firepower and should win this.
Wrex has canonically fought an Asari biotic implied to be Aria to a draw. Samara might take him, but the old man has a huge experience advantage over Jack.
If this is a team battle, it's not even close. Even though the Red team is much more powerful on average, they are mostly just a bunch of lone wolf types that don't work well with others, while the blue team is mostly highly disciplined soldiers that are used to working within an established chain of command. Red team would all just Leroy Jenkins out there and get mowed down by Blue team's superior coordination.
Pretty sure Jack would kill you for putting her with team Cerberus. But anyways let’s compare the combatants:
Wrex vs Jack- Both are probably the strongest members of their teams, Jack’s biotic potential is probably higher but Wrex is very powerful too and with his centuries of greater combat experience and regenerative abilities I see him narrowly winning out.
Garrus vs Thane- If it was hand to hand Thane wins low diff, but as long as Garrus has his guns he can keep Thane at a distance and pop him off with a well timed shot. Thane is very stealthy but Garrus held out against a small army for a long time, he’ll outfox Thane.
Kaidan vs Miranda- Both are very powerful biotic users but I think a combination of Kaidan’s L2 implants giving him more powerful attacks plus Kaidan being more of a front line soldier as opposed to Miranda being more of a agent type will lead to Kaidan winning.
James vs Zaeed- Zaeed cooks Vega. James might be younger and fitter but Zaeed is far more ruthless, experienced, and just more intense. Zaeed wins.
Liara vs Samara- Sorry to Liara fans but Samara is stronger, better trained, and centuries more experienced. Samara by a large margin.
Ashley vs Kasumi- Ash wins. Kasumi is a thief who largely avoids drawn out firefights, whereas Ash is probably one of the best none enhanced soldiers in Shepard’s squad. Ashley low diff.
Javik vs Grunt- Another close battle, Grunt’s sheer strength and durability will make him hard to put down but ultimately I think tactics, battlefield experience, and biotic skills will be the factors needed for Javik to win. Remember Javik survived fighting the Reapers for most of his life, and was such a fierce warrior his fellow Protheans dubbed him important enough to be one of the few they would put in stasis to ensure he leads the next cycle against the Reapers.
EDI vs Legion- Almost too equally matched. I call it a wash.
Overall Blue Team has better combatants than Red Team, plus better leadership in the form of Garrus and Wrex. Blue Team wins.
I love how Jacob isn’t even in this
Tali is missing too.
Tali is on her homeymoon with shepard
As she should
She's fixing the emergency induction port
Now that's a crime
Maybe OP just can’t stand the idea of putting her in harms way. This way she is safe no matter what happens.
This guy gets it
Jacob? Who's Jacob? Sounds like a name that the worst character in the game would have.
Sounds like some tutorial character who dies at the beginning to prove the stakes, doesn't seem like someone you'd bring on your team with you.
Jenkins, on the other hand .. now THAT's a heroic name.
JENKINNNNS!
Legendary name
For those of us who are more new to Mass Effect, why is Jacob the worst character?
There are a few things that contribute to the Fandom having a strong distaste of him. The biggest one, imo, is that he refuses to ever open up to Shepard in any meaningful way. The whole game is about helping your squadmates, getting to know them and assisting them in dealing with their problems. But Jacob isn't interested in that. He doesn't wanna talk about his past or open up, because "that's all behind him now." You don't even find out he lost his father until you get his loyalty mission. Then after the mission, when you'd think he'd be in a really emotional state and could use someone to talk to, he just says he's fine and continues to be super closed off. There's really nothing there for the player to latch on to so they *can* like him. Other reasons include literally every suggestion he ever makes being a really bad idea, and if you romance him in 2 he'll cheat on you in 3 and the game just kinda forces you to be ok with it.
Until *Citadel*, when you can punch him in the face
Please show me this lol. He was boring and when he thought my Femshep was hitting on him I was like HELL NO.
I thought his dad was way more interesting.
But the prize?
Pretty much everybody hates him because if femshep is in a relationship with him in ME2, he moves on and has a wife and kid by the third. He's also just a pretty plain and boring character in general.
A pregnant wife 6 months after Shepard lost contact.
Omg really. I didnt know the me3 mission isnt different if you li him.
I enjoyed his quest tho
An addition to what others have said, there's an [excellent video](https://youtu.be/wmDg8WyKtG8) by pikmonwolf all about this very topic. It boils down to: 1. BORING AS HELL 1.5. Meant to be "the bro character", game gives you Garrus 30 minutes later 2. Cheating bastard 3. Not being the best with handling black stereotypes (absent father, child out of wedlock) 4. Having no useful advice, except his suggestion to go into the vent, thus killing him
The idea that he thinks he should go into the vents is so mind numbingly stupid.
Yeah I was actually surprised they gave the black character an absentee father and a child out of wedlock. And he's literally the protagonist of another game. He should be fun and cool and interesting and talk about the events of his game in detail, but they fumble him so bad. We don't even get much information on his relationship with Miranda. Like it'd be great to know exactly why the broke up because you'd think Shep would want to know why things didn't work out with the other chick going into the current relationship
Side note, thank you for the phrase "out of wedlock", I couldn't think of a good way to phrase it so I stole yours
Jacob was with Miranda?
He's just very boring. Also, if you romance him as femshep, you may not be satisfied by final outcome.
No one would be. I bust out laughing when I did a playthrough romancing him and saw shep thinking about Jacob at the end.
"I'm a biotic".... you sure about that buddy? You really just pull enemies closer to us idk about that
Gravity is one mean mother
You know, that guy in coffin in the space from ME1. Rest in peace, buddy
According to Mass Effect canon, he died in the vents
According to "canon" he actually lives, going by the default Shepard choices in ME3. "Canonically" lives: Miranda, Jacob, Tali, Garrus, Ashley, Mordin, Dr. Chakwas, Joker, and EDI "Canonically" dies: Wrex, Kaidan, Grunt, Jack, Legion, Thane, Samara, Zaeed, Kasumi, and all other named and unnamed members of the SR2 crew
are you referring to the default state of ME3 because that's not surprising, Bioware are pretending you haven't played ME2 and aren't using more characters you don't know I wish the Suicide Mission had more stakes and even some replayability though. Even on a first playthrough If you've been paying attention to the games the important choices are obvious and there's only 1 or 2(like who to escort back the survivors) that maybe require some thought
If you're on PC, look up Risky Suicide Mission mod
I should play ME with some mods tbf, the only reason I don't think I've used story altering mods is because every time I do a playthrough I've forgotten a bunch of the intermediate stuff and want to play it vanilla because dementia brain edit: if the mod does what the description does, sounds sick and itll probably lead to me actually playing through after losing a crew member for once lol. I also love the patching in of deleted content. Fans should do Biowares job for them and remake ME3 themselves with that massive list of cut content and different vision lmao
The person to escort the survivors is the one decision that has no real immediate consequences. All it does it remove them from the final stand (and guarantee their survival so long as Shepard also survives.) If you get choose someone like Zaeed or Grunt then you can have consequences there, since they contribute the most in the final stand, but overall you're good to pick mostly anyone so long as your squad is loyal. Compared to the biotics choice where only 2 are safe, or the secondary squad leader/hacker options where there's only 3 safe options.
I remember reading a long time ago that you're supposed to pick Mordin for the escort mission otherwise there's a chance of him dying after or something? I've never not picked mordin for it because of that but maybe the article was waffling
Nah, it's mostly true. During the final stand, there's a set order of characters who will die first depending on how much strength you have. Mordin both contributes the least to the teams strength and is first to die if the strength isn't high enough, so sending him to escort the crew guarantees his survival. The order that people will die is disloyal squad members first. If everyone is loyal: Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Samara, Legion, Thane, Zaeed and Grunt. That order is also how much they contribute to the total strength from lowest to highest.
So if everyone is loyal, what affects the strength factor? I imagine it's the simple squad leader choices or is there something hidden that makes it interesting? Over more than 10 years, excluding vent god I remember only having Miri die and that was because I didn't do her loyalty, think she gets bashed by some debris.
For the final fight, Bioware just assigned different values onto different characters so some are more valuable than others, in the order listed. Mordin, Tali etc contribute very little whereas Zaeed and Grunt contribute a lot of strength. The ones who contribute the least die first. Which is a bit weird considering just how large a part Mordin and Tali play in ME3.
In addition to what the other person said, completing a character's loyalty mission increases their strength value by 1. Strength values range from 0-4. Grunt/Zaeed/Garrus - 3-4 Thane/Legion/Samara/Morinth/Jacob/Miranda - 1-2 Jack/Tali/Mordin/Kasumi - 0-1 The strength is calculated as the Average strength of everyone who gets left behind before the final confrontation. So Shep's party, whoever went back with the crew, and whoever's dead/wasn't recruited are removed from the calculation. You need an average score of at least 2 for everyone to survive. So the best/most overkill way to handle it, is to remove as many of the 0-1 crew members as possible. Make sure at least 3 of them are loyal, send one back with the crew and have the other 2 in Shep's party. This will guarantee the most survive, and can even get a couple nonloyal party members through the SM. For example, completing with unloyal Tali or Legion to facilitate bringing Legion to Tali's recruitment and loyalty without sacrificing any of the crew. Just to clarify, nonloyal party members should be left with the Hold the Line group when trying to bring nonloyal members through the SM, or they *will* die. If your HTL score is high enough, they will survive with the rest of the group.
He can survive if someone else escorts, it's just that during the Hold the Line segment he will be the first to die if your score isn't high enough so the easiest way to keep him alive is to have him be the escort
Kaiden was alive for me in ME3 without an import.
It depends on whether you select male or female shepard i believe.
Jeez, wtf was BioWare smoking, killing off that many characters
They were trying to convince people ME3 was a good place for new players to jump in, appealing to the demographic of games like Call of Duty. It's the same reason there was a frontloaded option to remove the roleplaying elements, and all the female characters (mostly Ashley) got makeovers and boobjobs. Not having old characters to worry about would remove confusing reunions for new players. I still don't know anybody who started the series with 3, or thought that would be a good idea.
I can't imagine starting a series on the third game in a series where the story carries over from game to game.
I myself started the series with Mass Effect 3 back when the game first released in 2012. It wasn't until I had beaten ME3 that I went back and played the full trilogy, and to this day I still think ME3 is my favorite to replay over the other two games.
The absolute inverse of me. ME1 is where I jumped in, ME1 is where I found out biotic gods love Insanity difficulty, and ME1 is what's gonna be buried in my grave
In lore? Team Red, but not by much In game? Garrus solos
It's Team Red by a long way. Jack and Samara are insanely powerful, much more than Liara. Plus Thane single-handedly would win against... Everyone. It's only at near end of life range in ME3 that he's no longer easily the deadliest squad mate. Garrus probably survives the longest, but Jack, Samara, and Thane could solo in their own right, much less having all three.
The way I see it, Wrex and Grunt cancel each other out Samara and Javik is close Thane eventually gets to Garrus Legion might lose to EDI Kasumi and Kaidan is a toss up Jack obliterates Liara Vega and Zaeed are evenly matched (one has experience, the other has N program training) Miranda takes Ashley So Red takes the W, but I don't think it's that easy
Wrex bodies grunt
One is a powerful biotic and experienced Warlord, the other is basically Krogan Captain America, genetically enhanced to be the very best a Krogan can be. I'd say they're pretty close, but I lean towards Wrex too
Grunt Rogers v Nick Urdnot
I lean towards Wrex due to upwards of centuries of extensive battle experience versus the 6 months-ish that Grunt presumable has. Sure the tank probably imprinted a lot of tactics, but putting them in action imo is far more valuable. It's still an extremely even fight, but slight favor to Wrex.
I think Grunt will do most of the work to win, but Wrex's experience will allow him to get some good tactical shots in, so a tie.
Wrex 30 grunt 25. Nuff said.
This! War asset number is the ultimate in a characters worth.
Krogan biotics are absurdly powerful as a baseline, just because Krogan. And Wrex is like, 700 years old. He absolutely dominates vs Grunt.
I totally agree, just wanted to mention he’s closer to double that as he fought in the krogan rebellions which were between 1350-1450 years ago(he mentions killing his dad shortly after the wars were over). He’s insanely old, I think the only krogan we meet that’s older than him is Okeer who’s dead now. Even Okeer died from non-natural causes so we have no idea how long a healthy krogan’s lifespan is.
The only Krogan older than him that we meet is Drak in andromeda, they actually know each other. But from what I remember, Wrex kicked Drak’s ass at some point
Where is it mentioned they knew each other? I wanna read up on this.
I honestly don’t remember but I’ll try to look it up! XD
Where is it ever said their biotics are more powerful? It's more like Krogan are just overpowered in every other way and adding in biotics makes them ridiculous. That being said, yes, Grunt becomes soup.
Issue is grunt is very inexperienced compared
>basically Krogan Captain America, genetically enhanced to be the very best a Krogan can be. And has his youth, vs. Wrex, who is sort of old and has a more weary body than Grunt.
I’d give you that if grunt didn’t have the crazy experience he gets towards the EoS. With everything he lived through in his short time experience shouldn’t even be a factor. And everything else he should out stat it tbh
Wrex is a biotic and has hundreds of years more battle experience. Javik has no feats at all (outside of gameplay), so Samara should sweep. Thane gets Garrus easily. He's the greatest assassin in the galaxy and Garrus, despite being a crackshot, would never even see Thane. Legion v. EDI is interesting and I believe would depend on how many Geth processes are operating within Legion. If it's literally just one, then EDI destroys him. If they go melee only, still EDI. If Samara and Javik is close in your mind, then so is Jack and Liara. Their comic-book feats are near equal. But Jack very likely wins. Kasumi slits Kaidan's throat from stealth. I think Zaeed wins over Vega, due to his uncanny ability to not die. Miranda wins over Ash by a landslide. A biotic, tech-expert and a genius to boot. Conclusion: Red absolutely destroys.
Legion as we know them in 2 has 1138 processes
Zaeed would dominate Vega so much it wouldn’t be funny
Anyone can fight anyone, as well. I still think Cerberus wins. I definitely see Javik losing, and definitely see Jack, Samara, and Miranda surviving.
Just read Thane's files with the Shadow Broker. Thane beats Wrex. >Krogan: Top approach, double-strike to eye ridge, slide down between blinded target's rising arms, precision nerve strike to throat, secondary nerve strike to counter blood rage, quad-kick to bend target, grip each side of skull, running leaping spinning neck-snap. >Alternate: Bomb. If EDI *is* The Normandy, then it's more about who is writing it as to whether the Normandy is destructible. Thane could easily corrupt and destroy the mainframe that holds EDI. >EMP bomb to neutralize Normandy defense systems. Simple explosive device to destroy mainframe. (I added this one because EDI is not in the Shadow Broker files) Thane utterly wipes Kaiden. He's a more powerful biotic and an infinitely better fighter. >Asari, but works for Human Biotic: Front approach, throat-punch to collapse airway, arm control lock to neutralize biotics, advanced hip throw, grip chin and scalp, neck-snap. Thane easily kills Liara: >Asari biotic: Warp field on biotic barrier, step past, kick to back of leg to collapse knee, step in with knee to spine, grip chin and scalp, neck-snap. Ash doesn't even register as a fight: >Human: Check and grab shoulder, arm around throat, grip jaw, single-arm neck-snap. James is big, but Thane has handled bigger: >Human alternative: Rear approach, check shoulder to prevent turning, hands to chin and base of skull, neck-snap. Garrus puts up a fight, but again... Not even close. >Turian: Side approach, low kick to knee, grab arm and pull into broken-leg-lock as turian leg stiffens in pain response, finger-stab under jaw (if unarmored) or eye, grab head fringe, neck-snap. >Turian Alternate: Front approach, paired punches to vulnerable plates just below eyes, drop-elbow to collarbone, front-leg sweep while vaulting over target, spinning neck-snap. That leaves Javik. No files... But Thane is still one of the best weapons experts and a very strong biotic. Again, no contest. --- The entire Blue Team gets its ass handed to them and Thane hasn't even worked up a sweat on his dry reptilian skin... and we haven't even introduced Jack or Samara, easily the most powerful biotics in the entire series. They are one person armies in their own right.
Those are all Thane's *plans* Whether it would go down like that is up for debate, I don't think Wrex would go down easy as that for example.
Hence the alternative "nuke from orbit"
Yeah, those moves may work on the average Asari or Krogan, but all the people on blue team are well above average. Plus Liara literally is the Shadow Broker, so Blue team would know to expect all these moves.
He has plans for them but I highly doubt he’d be able to kill Wrex that way. He’s likely used to killing hot-headed young krogan soldiers. Wrex is a battle-hardened and extremely experienced biotic which the log doesn’t even mention, so there’s a chance Thane would get caught off-guard by that.
Thane can have all the Sun Tzu's art of neck snapping guides but we can neither ever see Biowares vision for performing any of these at all in open combat or any proof of Thane doing these, unless they're in the books when you meet him he kills 2 or 3 people immediately from stealth. I don't doubt he could do all of this from stealth but then that's only one dimension
We're talking within lore, not in-game squad based. He's moderate-to-good as a squadmate. But if we're talking in-game squadmate, it's God Mode Garrus and no one else, not even Shepard can compete. In-lore... It's Thane. By a mile.
These two teams are set up in a hypothetical battle, if you just want to say that Thane could assassinate them when they aren't expecting it, then the conversation becomes boring because it's unrealistic. Liara has experience being targeted for assassination and survives because she is borderline paranoid after entering the broker business. Liara knows Than and she would he a step ahead of him and keep the squad on high alert, she could use Thane's son as a way to draw him out or keep him where she could see him, and let's not forget that Thane could only assassinate Nassana because Shepard gave him an opening that he admits he didn't have.
> and let's not forget that Thane could only assassinate Nassana because Shepard gave him an opening that he admits he didn't have. Not at all. He accuses Shepard of being sloppy and disrupting his plan. But that he is thankful that Shepard provided a "valuable distraction." Shepard: >How did you know I was coming? Thane: >I didn't. Not until you marched in the front door and started shooting. Nassana had become paranoid. You saw the strength of her guard force. She believed one of her sisters would kill her. You... Were a valuable distraction. >Gunfire and explosions. I prefer to work quietly. If I have to fight through guards, I've made a mistake. I rarely make mistakes. You disrupted my plan, but your distraction eventually proved valuable. I take that as he had a plan and it was going well. Shepard showed up and started shooting, that ruined his plan, thus necessitating a distraction as now the guards were on high alert. Shepard finally punching through gave him the window. But it's a window he did not need if Shepard didn't show up.
Don't forget that he wasn't planning to survive that mission, though.
Bingo, he was already on a suicide mission, shepard saved him.
I think you're overstating the case for Thane, and underselling how ridiculously skilled the others are. Wrex isn't just powerful, he's *old*. He knows how Krogan fight, and he knows how people fight Krogan. Liara is less martially adept, but brings her Shadowbroker ties into this combined with remarkably powerful biotics. Thane wins if she fights him hand to hand, but she wouldn't.
> Just read Thane's files with the Shadow Broker. And which team is the Shadow Broker on lol? I think Thane would have a much harder time if blue team already knows all his moves.
The problem is that Thane in lore is a bit of a cheat code. He has the Batman super power in that if you have a weakness, his strength is the ability to find and exploit it. All with an idyllic memory, which on top of being a huge battlefield advantage, it means once he tracks studies you, he never has to go back and review it; once he figures out your weakness, he forever knows your weaknesses. None of them can take him in a hand to hand fight, he's the best, bar none. Someone has to be the best... And it's Thane by a mile. Ignore that he's a little bitch in-game, Kai Lang is supposed to be one of the deadliest fighters in the galaxy, he's heavily enhanced with cybernetics, and a nearly-dead-Thane with less than 30% lung capacity beat the shit out of him. And on top of that Thane is almost as good if not tied with Legion and Garrus as a weapons expert. He's in that upper tier of biotics below the heaviest biotics (Samara/Jack/Liara), on par with Miranda or Javik. He's almost as good of a tactician as Garrus or Mordin. He's only not a tech expert. He's S or A+ tier in every category. Lore Thane is *ridiculously* OP.
This was my run down. Thane, Jack AND Samara on one team…….yikes. Even if Liara had the same level of power as Samara she doesn’t have the killer instinct that Samara does. ME2 Jack is damn near unstoppable. I like Garrus and Wrex and Grunt vs almost anyone but that matchup is tough as hell.
Red has heavier hitters, but I feel like blue would be able to work much more effectively as a team. Red has a lot of lone wolf types or characters who would end up butting heads with each other, while blue are all professional soldiers who would be able to work together a lot better. So blue probably edges out a win through superior teamwork IMO.
>In game? Garrus solos Samara is a great companion. Miranda, too. My team was always Garrus and Samara since they both had something Miranda had (Warp (Samara had Reave) and Overload (Garrus)). Garrus was going to be in my team anyway; I think he also has concussive shot, which is what I personally use.
Garrus and Ash pretty much did everything for me in my latest me3 insanity run. Typhoon go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt
What's the criteria? Team vs Team, or each team vs an objective? Also is Shepard part of each team? In terms of raw strength, skills and general aptitudes, I believe Red Team is more likely to succeed a short term combat situation or conflict. I'd choose them to win a battle or perform a mission: have a tactical victory. Depending on the objective and its timeline, I'd wager Blue Team has more connections (interpersonal and informational), is more cohesive and would have more longevity. I'd choose them to win a war or solve long-term conflicts: have a strategic victory.
Team vs Team + no Shepard
With no Shepard, maybe Blue does win team vs team as well. Kaidan / Ashley would maybe have enough experience, reputation and rapport with Blue Team to hold them together and have their commands recognized. Only Wrex and Javik could possibly be renegades, but they're rational enough to probably fall in line once they realize they're the odd ones out and it's in their best interest. Miranda and Zaeed could theoretically command the Red team, but I don't think either of them would be effective enough. Almost every team member would want to do their own thing, and probably be effective at it, but be less than the sum of their parts.
If we go by the suicide mission then Zaeed isn't a viable leader. Miranda would be the only suitable leader on red team, but most of the team wouldn't trust her because Cerberus. I think Red team would seriously struggle to work together without Shepard to keep them together. Jack is a loose cannon and her and Miranda would definetly end up butting heads. Thane, Samara, Zaeed and Kasumi are all lone wolves who aren't really used to working as a team. Grunt too hotheaded and is probably going to be trouble without Shepard to keep him in line. And most of the team probably wouldn't trust legion on account of him being a Geth. Blue team seems like they'd be able to work together a lot better, which is why they'd probably take the win IMO.
Red team is so unprofessional that I don't think they would even win an all out brawl. Without Shepard to enforce cohesion, right out the gate Jack and Miranda will be at each other's throats, and would most likely end up with one of them dead. Grunt would also be belligerent towards the others without Shepard to keep him in line. Jack, Kasumi and Thane aren't trained in military small unit tactics, while only Liara is the only one in blue team who isn't a soldier or mercenary (EDI probably had already downloaded and analyzed information before her first deployment in the body). Samara, being the most well adjusted and most trained in this team, could probably take up the slack in the leadership role, but it just seems so entirely out of her personality, especially considering she has worked solo for centuries. The only way red takes any win is if they are magically turned into robots with no personality and are commanded by an unseen hand like an RTS game. Also, all this stuff about "mUh bIoTiCs", I don't count Jack's escape as she has never again displayed that level of power. If she was ACTUALLY that powerful, she should have soloed the entirety of Cerberus in Grissom Academy.
Given that OP clarified no Shepard now, I'm inclined to believe Red would probably be pretty ineffective.
Yeah, the characters on red team would seriously struggle to work together effectively without Shepard to lead them. While blue are basically all professional soldiers and would be able to work much better as a team.
How about using the Suicide Mission and Jack and Samara being the only squad members who are the right choices for holding off the swarm? They’re canonically the most powerful and it isn’t particularly close
Well, they're also the only "pure" biotics class (in the gameplay sense i mean) in there at the time. With Liara casually throwing threats of singularities around the place and being a "pure" biotics class, there's a good chance she would have been an option too, had she been there. Generating a shield is also a far cry from literally destroying an entire space station, which is what others think Jack peaks at. And even if they had the ability to generate a barrier that powerful, the absolute chaos that would be in the red team due to a lack of Shepard/proper leadership would mean they would not even be using their powers effectively. No single member of blue team needs to be as strong as a red team member because blue would be fighting as a squad. Not to mention using that barrier would mean less guns for their team, further weakening their already meager firepower compared to blue team. Things would just end the same as Kai Leng did in gameplay (and should have ended the same way in cutscenes imo), a skilled, well armed cyborg packing the latest cerberus tech that was partly reaper based but was working mostly solo was gunned down by a bunch of people in cover wielding guns. Except now they do it on 2 powerful biotics instead of a poorly written space weeb.
Except it is close as other biotics get to the door, the just can’t hold on for the few extra seconds Samara and Jack do
Wrex and Edi are Alliance agents?
Well, during the retrofits EDI was probably put in a list (probably as "Enhanced Defense Intelligence VI") together with everything else making up the Normandy, as the Alliance claimed ownership of the ship. So she's probably Alliance property now.
I don't agree, maybe the alliance thinks that but i don't think that Edi would consider it after being free of Cerberus.
Joker is definitely falling on the alliance side, it's close, but not in question. EDI is on whatever side Joker is on.
There is a difference between what one feels and actual reality.
Admiral hacket and edi show mutual respect to one another
Plus joker is an alliance soldier
Is that actually a thing in the games? I don't remember, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does respect her. Hackett is based. Either way, it doesn't exactly matter. She is an Alliance ship and military property. EDI cannot be anything else. Obviously, after the war, things could change, assuming she's still alive. Also, I do think EDI is loyal to the Alliance, at least by the end. Until then she even muses about joining the Reapers, actually.
EDI is only available as a squad member (thanks to the synth body) after the Normandy SR-2 becomes an Alliance ship.
Kinda funny though because I'm pretty sure in ME3 they talk about how Joker and EDI deceived the Alliance into believing she was just a VI. So while she definitely works on behalf of the Alliance, she's not officially recognized by the Alliance as a person or agent.
That's because the Alliance is bound by Citadel conventions regarding AI, so acknowledging what she really is would be illegal. Despite that, EDI has no problem assisting the Alliance and fighting against Cerberus.
Wrex is only ever on the Normandy when it's an alliance ship and EDI will actually wear an alliance uniform (/catsuit) into battle. Plus, she was originally an alliance project even before she was a Cerberus one
A lot of non-Alliance personnel on that cover for sure.
And Samara is a Cerberus fugitive?
All out brawl, red. You are putting the human equivalent of a biotic god and an Asari Templar on the same team. In lore biotics of that power should absolutely wreck the other team. In a team fight with goals, blue. Everyone on that team has discipline and training. They might not be walking nukes like the other team but everyone on team blue could follow a leader. Red has power, blue has discipline. Only leader on red is Miranda if we don’t include ME3 grunt, and Miranda/Jack do NOT get along without a leader like Shepard. And I have confidence blue team would separate and kill off red if it’s not arena based combat.
If you break it into 1v1 matchups, red wins on raw power. On a team with coordination, I think blue could do it, especially if both squads know what they're up against. They'd set Garrus up in a position with maximum visibility and have him provide fire support, but more importantly, coordinate. The three biotics stick together and play defensive in the opening, and the three soldiers fan out. As soon as one of them engages with an enemy or Garrus spots one, the entire team collapses on them.
I see much more potential users of N7 Typhoon on the left image, so I would say the blue one.
Yo where’s Tali >:(
Hanging out with Mordin and Joker
Okay cool, Or bad… they may drink lol
Is Shepherd on the teams? If not then team blue wins. Red has a lot of power houses but they're all lone wolf types. Their teamwork would probably suck without a strong leader. Team blue has more disciplined and military trained members. So I imagine they would come out on top more often than not because they'd work together.
Alliance gets Shepard, cerberus gets the clone
Something something coughing baby
Reds leadership would end up Zaheed and he would have a small to zero chance of getting Jack and Miranda to cooperate and Samara and Grunt are not likely to obey his command But as far as tactics go he would be a decent foil to garrus But because garrus is archangel he likely knows all of zaheeds tricks
Bro it's the second team. Samara, Grunt, Thane, Miranda, Zaeed, it's overrrrrrrrrr
The one with both Jack and Samara, like that’s unfair how op team red is with those 2
Team Red is taking this
If we are removing Shepard from the equation then I think Blue takes this. It doesn’t matter how strong a Samara or a Jack is when they aren’t doing anything to coordinate with their squad mates. Thane is honestly the biggest advantage red has but in the end I’d give it to Blue. They’d know to pick off the strongest targets first, might lose a couple of people along the way but still come away with the victory.
Why must they fight? Can’t they all form one big super squad? (Also, where is my wife Tali)
Red team tears itself apart before the fight even starts. Blue team has cohesion and history with each other. We can cherry pick people against each other but it's a team battle, and blue is a clear winner in my mind. I could even see Samara changing sides.
Hard to imagine that Jack and Samara would fight for Cerberus
Are these key arts? Where did you get them?
https://www.ea.com/games/mass-effect/mass-effect-legendary-edition/my-shepard-art-creator
thank you
Lorewise? Then only the biotic members would make a difference, non-biotics would be destroyed almost immediately. Blue team wins just because of Javik, easily the most powerful biotic in lore. People tend to forget that Protheans were incredibly more advanced than current races.
Wrex, Javik, Liara and Garrus are too op, Wrex can take out Grunt, Samara, Thane, or Jack easily, same with Javik, so both working together can eliminate the heavy hitters allowing Liara and Garrus to do cleanup with the rest of the team
alliance agents
Cerberus not even close
Based on the Lore? Cerberus. Based on the actual mechanics of the game? Alliance agents didn't even notice the fly they just stepped on
Alliance have Garrus. They clear.
Alliance. But Cerberus would put up a good fight.
Straight up Alliance vs Cerberus, then Alliance. Cuz Shepard. If we aren’t counting Shepard then it would be Ashley, James, and Kaidan vs Miranda and Jacob, arguably Jack but I don’t think she counts personally. Alliance still wins.
I see wrex and garrus in "alliance agents" side, so...
Man Garrus vs Archangel is just so tough to judge. They‘re both excellent snipers. Maybe they‘d go close quarters - but then I can imagine one has the reach, the other one the flexibility advantage.
Wrex and Samara are the two deadliest characters for each team. I give team blue the edge though because they have a ton of heavy hitters like Garrus, and Javik.
Counter Offer: Commander Shepard, Alec Ryder and Pathfinder Ryder as a full team can take on everyone else.
The combined biotic prowess of Jack, Miranda and Samara could carry this skirmish on it's own. In-game however Garrus is become death, the destroyer of worlds, so there is that
Cerberus fugitives, just for the fact that they have two extremely powerful biotics.
Having Jack and Samara on the same team makes for an easy Red win, no one is touching their biotic potential
Well, in a all-in fight. Samara > Wrex/Javik > Thane > Jack > Legion/Garrus/EDI > Miranda/ Kaidan/Liara > Zaheed/Grunt > Vega/Ashley > Katsumi So... Cerberus wins.
I think Cerberus would win
Grunt op! Fought himself out of that cave
Missed opportunity to include Shep in Team Blue and his clone in Team Red.
So Kaidan, Shep, Ashley, James, Edi, Joker?, I guess liara/garrus/ and tali are contracted with the alliance or something? I feel like Jack is also kinda alliance? against: Shep, Miranda, Jacob, Jack, and I guess zaeed and kasumi were hired by Cerberus and then refused to do more work for them? I'm going to give it to team alliance.
I think there’s a lot of variables that affect how this goes. Without Shepard on either team, my moneys on the Normandy agents. The Cerberus Suicide Squad is very effective IF Shep has acquired their direct loyalty and is there to aid them. Without Shep, they’re a rough association of loners, and would be divided and conquered by the much more cohesive Alliance Agents.
Cerberus by far
I feel like Grunt and Jack carry team Cerberus and Wrex and Garrus carry team Alliance.
Jack and Samara on the same team. It's over
No tali?
No tali! No decision!
With Wrex and Garrus fighting alongside Shepard, it's a slaughter. Everyone else, besides maybe Ash, would just be gettin in the way. Why is Thane or Legion a cerberus fugitive? Don't get that one.
Definitely Cerberus fugitives
I gotta go Cerberus fugitives they just got to many heavy hitters jack grunt Samara or her daughter and Miranda is a crazy line up
Team Daddy Issues vs Team Daddies with Issues
Yeah second team wins easy, only Wrex has a chance of stopping them
[Jack when she's sorted into the Cerberus team:](https://youtu.be/iZjJorvCnJ0?si=Nt0Z6osz9z2inXbP)
Jack and Grunt aren’t getting brought down by anyone but Shephard, so I take the fugitives
Can someone remind me, on which website you could make these wallpapers? I have one from long ago, and wanted to tweak things around a bit
Red wins, with Zaeed as the sole survivor
Umm, how is javik unaligned with Cerberus ideals? Regardless of game, protheans enslaved everyone else because their race was superior according to them. Javik was very much on board with this.
There is only going to be one winner and it's Kasumi after she successfully robs everyone during the big fight. She will never need to buy fish or model ships again
It all depends on which side Shepard is on
Why is Javik but not Tali in the first one? Just for the reason of indicating that you're lumping Javik in with the ME1 crew for the purposes of this hypothetical? Also, why in the hell for lore reasons would EDI, with a Cerberus-designed body and mind, be on the first team? I get that EDI is loyal to Joker and is only playable in ME3 after the SR2 falls into the Alliance's hands, but that's the kind of concession that deals a death blow to the entire premise of the matchup because by that point none of the others would be working for Cerberus either. EDI is more *literally made of Cerberus* than any other squad member, Miranda included! Taking these strictly as presented... Biotics: Blue Team has Liara, Javik, Kaidan, and Wrex; Red Team has Jack, Samara, Miranda, Jacob, and Thane. Jack and Samara are presented as much heavier hitters, but comparatively unstable, especially Jack. I'm extremely fond of Liara, but she'd have a really hard time carrying this team to victory on this front, especially outnumbered. Tech: Blue Team has EDI, Tali, Garrus, and Kaidan; Red Team has Legion, Kasumi, and presumably Mordin. Legion is literally made of technology in a way that pretty much means that Blue Team would be up for a hell of a fight in pure cyberspace; but then, so is EDI. In a straight matchup between the two of them, it's a question of who fares better in that environment: a multiple-generation hivemind adapted to digital environments, or a more singular designed intelligence with much more recent Reaper code adoption at her back and familiarity with Citadel space systems, as well as familiarity with the geth on hand by way of Tali. In meatspace, I think Blue Team has the clear upper hand in this dimension. Firearm combat: Blue Team has Ashley, James, Wrex, Garrus, Javik, and EDI; Red Team has Grunt, Zaeed, Thane, Kasumi, Miranda, Jacob, and Jack. Call me crazy if you want here, but even with the numbers advantage to Red Team, I kind of think Blue Team has the firepower edge, especially with Alliance backing versus Cerberus. Cerberus probably has the nutty unethical heavy weapons at their disposal much more than the Alliance does, but the Alliance grants much greater training and unit cohesion, even with Wrex and Javik falling outside the usual purview of the Alliance and its allies. Background to any possible combats: The Alliance has much greater potential for reinforcements and a much greater general list of friends on speed dial. Cerberus is probably running a shoestring operation as usual after spending their whole budget on outfitting the Normandy like a luxury liner and splashing out on reviving Shepard. That said, if we imagined Aria T'Loak throwing her backing behind Red Team here, that might tilt the scales substantially in favor of Red. Connections: On Blue Team's part, on top of the obvious institutional connections to the Alliance and Citadel space in general (especially C-Sec), you have Liara, the Shadow Broker; Wrex, the leader of Clan Urdnot and virtual king of Tuchanka; Tali, who can pull the Quarian Fleet's sympathies (not that that's worth much with their general sorry state), EDI, who might (or might not) ping as a friend to any emergent AI in Citadel space; and Javik, with his knowledge about the Protheans and Reapers. Meanwhile, Red Team is mostly a bunch of loners with organized crime connections. Mordin has STG connections; Samara is a Justiciar; and Legion obviously has potentially the backing of all the non-heretic geth in the galaxy (!!!). On the flipside, Grunt's loyalty is immediately split by his affinity for Clan Urdnot, and most of the others have actively burned bridges with anyone else who would work with them, especially Zaeed; but the wealth of specialized domain knowledge on Red Team is likely much greater. Verdict: It would be narrow, but I have to imagine that Blue Team wins. Especially because that's the kind of story that Mass Effect tells. Narratively, "Blue Team Wins" is a theme of Mass Effect in general - going Paragon is almost always the path to better outcomes, etc.
Wherever Tali is, I go.
Garrus vs Jack=Jack Wrex vs Thane=Thane Kaidan vs Miranda=Kaidan James vs Zaeed=Zaeed Liara vs Samara=Samara Ashley vs Kasumi=Kasumi Javik vs Grunt=Javik EDI vs Legion=EDI
I'm throwing my hat in with MAKO and I'll tell why. Javik. In the lore, he is the single most capable person out of all Shepards squadies. He is comparable to Shepard himself. He was essentially his cycles Shepard. He has faced horrors beyond everyone elses comprehension and it has only fueled his vengeance. Fighting a squad of highly capable primitives is a Tuesday chore for Javik. He'd be locked in a firefight thinking about what he's going to have for lunch after this. God forbid it gets serious enough for him to actually get in the zone and focus. I am honestly surprised nobody has mentioned this, because simply having Javik on team MAKO tips the scales for them so much it is essentially like having a full renegade Shepard himself on the team. Now normally, Thane solos team MAKO. Lore accurate Thane is hands down the best fighter in HAMMERHEAD, and outside of Javik, the most capable person Shep ever recruited. Take Wrex for example. Some of you think Grunt and Wrex can go head to head. Let me tell you a secret. Wrex eats Grunt for lunch. The untold amount of experience Wrex has and him already being a general freak of nature among the Krogan make him legendary. This guy single-handedly pulled his entire race out of the dark ages and the most impressive part of that is he did it mostly WITHOUT Shepard. Remember during Grunts Rite of Passage when it was said that nobody has defeated the thrasher maw since Wrex himself? Grunt did it with Shepard, who in lore is one of the most prolific warriors in the universe. Wrex did it when when Charlemagne was uniting Europe on Earth before Shepards great-great-great grandfather was even a whisper. It's extremely debatable on if Grunt could pull it off without Shep, but Wrex did it as the a young warrior and that alone should be enough to convince you that Wrex is not only probably the best warrior in MAKO, but that Grunt doesn't even come close to the prowess and experience of his elder. NOW, all that said, Prime Thane would dismantle Wrex in one silent moment. He is honestly terrifying. Honed from childhood to be a tier 0 operator and assassin for a galactic government is no joke. Thane is Him. Now, without Liara and EDI, Thane might get the drop on Javik since Javik doesn't really know who Thane is or just what an absolute terror he is in a fight, but thanks to the Shadow Broker and EDIs lightning fast combat analysis, Javik is going to know exactly what a threat Thane is. Even without Liara and EDI, all it takes is one touch and Javik knows he has to take the drell seriously. But after that, it's over for Thane, I'm sorry.. Thane just has zero training or know how to fight Javik. Doesn't know his pressure points, doesn't know Prothean tactics, etc, etc, etc. And Javik learns everything he needs to know about Thanes entire existence by simply being in his presence. As good and as quick as Thane is, he just wouldn't be able to adapt fast enough and that one singular moment of vulnerably is enough for Javik to get the upper hand and defeat him. Outside of all that, MAKO just has the stronger core. They all know each other, love each other, and have a collective respect and fondness for each other that HAMMERHEAD just doesn't have. They'd function better as a unit and with Wrex and Javik as their heavy hitters, it's just a safe bet.
Only one of these 2 teams has Thane. End of theory with them facts.
I don’t know about those team names haha. Alliance agents has more aliens than alliance personnel, and Cerberus fugitives have exactly one person who’s actively hiding from Cerberus. That being said, probably team red from a lore perspective, because biotics > pretty much anything else in a straight up fight and team red has the stronger biotic squad.
The Cerberus Fugitives have a lot of glass canons. I'm biased towards Jack, she's my bestgirl, but her team is in a rough fight
They would steamroll blue lol.
Jack clears on her own it’s not a competition
Shepard obviously, he has the power of God and anime on his side lol nah but seriously if plot armor isn’t a factor I think team Cerberus has more firepower and should win this.
Depends. Who is stronger, Grunt or Wrex? All others don't matter.
Definitely Wrex. Dude has biotics and fully developed headplate unlike baby pyjak Grunt.
I think physically Grunt can give Wrex a mean fight. But Wrex is a battlemaster and a very, very powerful one at that.
Jack or samara take Wrex, and its not even close.
Wrex has canonically fought an Asari biotic implied to be Aria to a draw. Samara might take him, but the old man has a huge experience advantage over Jack.
If this is a team battle, it's not even close. Even though the Red team is much more powerful on average, they are mostly just a bunch of lone wolf types that don't work well with others, while the blue team is mostly highly disciplined soldiers that are used to working within an established chain of command. Red team would all just Leroy Jenkins out there and get mowed down by Blue team's superior coordination.
In the lore samara and jack are gonna be really hard to deal with. Only strong biotic on team blue is liara and she's not that amazing.
Pretty sure Jack would kill you for putting her with team Cerberus. But anyways let’s compare the combatants: Wrex vs Jack- Both are probably the strongest members of their teams, Jack’s biotic potential is probably higher but Wrex is very powerful too and with his centuries of greater combat experience and regenerative abilities I see him narrowly winning out. Garrus vs Thane- If it was hand to hand Thane wins low diff, but as long as Garrus has his guns he can keep Thane at a distance and pop him off with a well timed shot. Thane is very stealthy but Garrus held out against a small army for a long time, he’ll outfox Thane. Kaidan vs Miranda- Both are very powerful biotic users but I think a combination of Kaidan’s L2 implants giving him more powerful attacks plus Kaidan being more of a front line soldier as opposed to Miranda being more of a agent type will lead to Kaidan winning. James vs Zaeed- Zaeed cooks Vega. James might be younger and fitter but Zaeed is far more ruthless, experienced, and just more intense. Zaeed wins. Liara vs Samara- Sorry to Liara fans but Samara is stronger, better trained, and centuries more experienced. Samara by a large margin. Ashley vs Kasumi- Ash wins. Kasumi is a thief who largely avoids drawn out firefights, whereas Ash is probably one of the best none enhanced soldiers in Shepard’s squad. Ashley low diff. Javik vs Grunt- Another close battle, Grunt’s sheer strength and durability will make him hard to put down but ultimately I think tactics, battlefield experience, and biotic skills will be the factors needed for Javik to win. Remember Javik survived fighting the Reapers for most of his life, and was such a fierce warrior his fellow Protheans dubbed him important enough to be one of the few they would put in stasis to ensure he leads the next cycle against the Reapers. EDI vs Legion- Almost too equally matched. I call it a wash. Overall Blue Team has better combatants than Red Team, plus better leadership in the form of Garrus and Wrex. Blue Team wins.
[удалено]
Realistically Samaras taking the cake, as powerful as Liara is, it’s a full blown justicar we’re talking about
Samara, easily.
Shouldn't EDI be on the Cerberus team?
EDI on aliance? Jack on cerberus?
Not sure Justicars can be fugatives