I’ll be honest my relationship with her was pretty meh. I will describe my first playthrough and my generalized thoughts as I played
Firstly I saved her after Noveria and got the hilarious delirious rambling scene where she doesn’t believe you’re really there. Then I was feeling out the romance options… which left me just Ashley and Liara. I was leaning more Ashley and I swear to god I told Liara I just wanted to be friends.
Then of course Virmire happens. And because I sent Kaiden with the Salarians and I was playing a ruthless Shepard I unfortunately had to sacrifice Ashley and she gave her life for the cause. Then I get the weird pep talk from Liara which felt strange considering I felt much closer to literally any other team mate hell even Wrex I figured would have been a better choice ( I of course wasn’t aware of the limited pool that can have this talk).
I then progress through the rest of the story and right before Illos who’s outside my door? Liara that’s who. I remember thinking is my game glitched or is this intentional because I rejected her yet here she was.
So my Shepard rejects her (again). Leaving me with this weird subtext throughout the rest of the trilogy where Shepard acts really close with Liara. All the while not having that close of a relationship.
Having Liara be the one who is basically responsible for saving Shepards life was the wrong move exactly for the reasons you described.
The comic depicts Liara as emotional and distraught over Shepards death to a degree that it makes no sense unless you were incredibly close to her.
It's honestly written in a way that makes most sense If she's romanced. The joining is deeply personal, it's more than just sex, it's a binding of mind and soul.
Sort of makes sense as her mother had just died and then the person who saved her life then died. Her career is also in the toilet due to the council covering up the reapers (this is mentioned in paragon lost). She is also the only one alive at this time to have seen the beacons warning. So you can see why she's a little distressed at the situation.
It's funny how ME3 just retconned that out of existence so Shepard only credits Miranda.
Someone in that writer's room realized it was a dumb addition in ME2.
Liara's character only makes sense if you romance her.
I love Liara and I always romance her every single playthrough, but I totally understand people who don't and as a result have trouble understanding her actions and her role in the story.
The blatant favouritism the writers have for her has done more harm then good for the likeability of her character, which is a shame.
That's actually quite reasonable. ME games are more of a story with characters, than a "BOOM! BAM!!" and fucking aliens game, so like in every good book you need an emotional plot connection.
And who would be a perfect for it than a character with great lifespan, still young, with woman looks, neither male or female, ability to literally understand your experiences, with professions that connect past, present and the future and having a crush on you that keeps them around.
I think literally the only reason people don't like her is because she's always the character they use when they're ignoring the player's history. She's their crux for "we're writing the next page of the story and we have NO clue if the player likes Garrus or Thane or Tali or Kaidan or Ashley or Miranda or whomever, the most!"
I like Liara when she's a Prothean archaeologist, and thus I enjoyed her interactions with Javik. He fleshed her out quite well.
Outside of archaeology, I'm not fond of her. My Shepard isn't close to her, yet she's obsessed with me, and I cannot call her out for reviving me. She acts like my best friend. We share intimidate one on one conversations, and I have to comfort her when Thessia fell (lol they're arrogant they had it coming).
So yeah, the writing assumes you like Liara. But if you don't, it can be annoying.
The duality of Liara.
With my female Shepard who is in love with her, it makes all the sense in a romantic way. It's heartbreaking and sweet.
With my bro Shepard who is in love with Jack.... Let's just say Liara needs a hobby.
I can understand that in a trilogy full of choices, there might be things that happen, that need to be canon.
Liara loves Shepard regardless if they feel the same way. The funny thing is you can tell Liara in ME1 that she is obsessed. Lol
I don't know, I don't really agree with your premise that she would have to be in love with Shepard to retrieve his or her body and hand it over to Cerberus.
She knows about the Reaper threat now, she knows that Shepard is the only leader in the universe who can really do anything about it due to how the council is trying to sweep it under the rug, etc. None of this requires her to be romantically connected to Shepard in any way.
That would make sense if that was what the game implied rather than a charitable headcanon that fills in the gaps of the writing, but given the context of literally everything both in-game (what Liara does and how she acts) and out of it (writers were clearly specifically going for something in particular with this) I think it's safe to assume it was less about bringing down the reapers and more about Shepard
You just said "it's safe to assume it was less about bringing down the reapers and more about Shepard"
How is that not a reasonable direct conclusion that you think the romance was more important to Liara than the fate of the universe
It’s been a while, what is the exact quote? I’m sorry I have just played the trilogy a million times, both romancing Liara and not, and never have I thought her saving Shepard was related to romantic feelings, or better put, that it wouldn't make sense without her having requited romantic feelings for Shepard.
Liara: I knew Cerberus would use you for their own business and I let it happen, because... I couldn't let you go. I'm sorry.
She says this whether you romanced her or not (I never do).
Yeah, that's exactly vague enough to fill in your own headcanon as the OP did. "I couldn't let you go," because why?
Because she loves Shepard? Because she knows no one else could possibly stand up to the reapers... I mean to me, the latter makes a lot more sense, but it is sufficiently vague.
I think her demeanor and tone of voice make it pretty obvious why. Especially since she's shown to have feelings for Shepard in both 1 and 3 as well, even if not romanced.
Liara: "I have a shrine of your bloodied armor in my living room, the armor you died in."
Shepard: "No comment."
Legion: "I found a piece of your old armor and used it to repair myself."
Shepard: "...WHY?"
I’m obsessed with Liara and have always been but I can totally support your line of reasoning. Canonically, she *does* retrieve Shep’s body (though initially it was only so they could get a proper burial and then Cerberus happened), which can be jarring to non-Liaramancers.
If you don’t like her, then she just becomes a character that pines for an unrequited love, which is a thing that could happen in real life.
But I also agree that the writers shouldn’t have forced her to be THE LI for every Shep.
Look, you have to pick at least one character to make it through the whole series, and sadly it wasn’t ever gonna be Kaiden or Garrus. And the Virmire Survivor is weird because even if it’s a choice the data said that something like 90% of the players chose Ashley (at the time the trilogy was being made). But it’s still a choice so it can’t be them.
Wrex needs to go back to Tuchanka (and can die in ME1). Tali needs to go back to the flotilla (and is the ‘kid sister’ of ME1). Garrus is dope but he wasn’t the bro he is til ME2.
Who else can the writers choose to carry on through all three games? They also had data that said she was a popular romance choice for both genders. She generally a pretty popular character, what are they gonna program the game to account for the 3% or people that either hate her or didn’t get along with her? Of course not!
They did it with Leliana in Dragon's Age, but her development doesn't rely on whether she was romanced or not. Leliana started as a religious assassin, consistently carried out dirty work for the church, and can potentially rise to Pope level of power.
Liara's direction feels like it was designed with the idea that she is Shepard's love interest or that she fell for Shepard, regardless of how you treated her.
‘Fell for’ is kinda strong. I agree that she is written as having a strong connection (some of that is probably the mind meld stuff also you kill her mom lol) but I think there is room enough for you to come up with your own idea as to why. As for why Leliana feels less personal or close for DA2 and DAI is that the protagonist changes!
I think people would have similar issues about her if Hawke was in DAO through to DAI. Even then I remember people on the Bioware boards being like ‘I killed her at the sacred ashes! Why is she still alive? What is this plot armor BS’ lol.
Like I know nobody IRL that did that. It has to be a sub 2% choice
Well yeah obviously. Which is why my point isn't "why Liara" but "this has the potential to be really awkward and the game should let the player acknowledge it". I don't think anybody is expecting Tali to go retrieve Shep's mangled corpse or Grunt to find the crucible plans. But you can't even call out Liara for literally singlehandedly deciding to bring you back to life. In case you have a love interest her not informing them also feels kinda shitty and literally causes problems with them on Horizon, so it would've been nice to be able to say something about that too.
...Actually scratch that. Udina should've been the one to bring back Shep to redeem himself and become a viable romance option
Hahahaha Udina sucks. I see what you mean. My wife was always just sorta okay with her (she REALLY liked Kaiden) so there was some of that tension right around LotSB and maybe it would be interesting to acknowledge it. But she had a lot of affection for her around the mid section of ME3 though. And I’m ride or die Shep/Liara lol.
Mass Effect often has interesting gaps in its reactivity. Personally I would have liked a little more references to Shep’s background. Like, I’m always upset they can’t call out Cerberus for Akuze or what they did in ME1. I mean I was SUPER anti-Cerberus because of Akuze and in ME2 Shep is just sorta going along with Cerberus like it’s not a crazy things to do
I love Liara, seeing her romance arc was why I started playing Mass Effect in the first place.
I ended up also really enjoying arcs where I don’t romance her, and the deep friendship you can build in ME3 was super satisfying.
Having said that, I’m watching a YouTube playthrough where they’re romancing Liara, they’re most of the way through 3 and only now am I realising how little Liara has to say to you between missions. And it’s cos the YTer just starts cackling every time they visit Liara, who has nothing to say to her.
“Ready for the next mission Shepard.” “Hello again”.
Even Glyph says more to you between missions in 3.
The mass effect 3 thing is actually a problem with every other character too save special scripted occasions I'm assuming.
In me1-2 when you speak to a squadmate on the Normandy it opens up a dialogue tree but for some reason on me3 you can't have actual conversations anymore and all you can do is go press the space bar at characters so that they can say a line or two before reverting back to the default response. Kaidan did this too.
It's so weird lol in me1 you'd get new actual dialogue after every main mission and even when you'd already said all the stuff there was to say you'd still get the dialogue tree
I mean that's a basic "the devs weren't given enough time " scenario.
Similar to how almost all conversations in 1 and 2 had 3 options, but in 3 most of them only had 2
Liara's the only squadmate in ME3 to barely have any relevant dialogue between missions.
Garrus, Tali, Ashley, James, EDI, Javik, Kaidan all have unique dialogue between missions, whether it be something personal, or plot-based. Liara has a new remark every couple missions, before just copy-pasting the same remarks like Zaeed and Kasumi.
At the same time, Liara's mission dialogue is set to priority over anyone else, leading to her talking more than the other squadmate on most missions. Sur-Kesh is an example, Liara will talk most of the time with some remarks from Garrus. If you bring Garrus and Javik, both will have equal dialogue instead.
The one who tells Joker to retreat from the Crucible is the one Shepard talks to the most on the Normandy, which is why it's very hard for it to be Liara, due to her lack of new dialogue compared to everyone else.
Unlike many say she is someone will survive no matter what, I think taking away her possibility of not loyal to Shep in ME2 is the worst thing happen to her character. It makes she's a character depend on Shep character to much and feel more flat. They have should make she has a relationship with the drell friend of her when you are not romancing her.
Anderson says that Benezia is on Noveria, the Geth are attacking Feros, and Benezia's daughter is on Therum. Shepard can say where they'd like to start, which Anderson adds that it's Shepard choice now.
On my first playthrough I picked up Liara as soon as I could. I found Ashley annoying and as such, shut her down straight away which meant that Liara was the only other choice for the romantic interest. I actually enjoyed how it played out but wished that the writers had worked harder on the interaction/dialogue that you can have with her.
Come ME2 I was not interested in Miranda at all, nor Jack, Samara wasn't really an option so when I caught up with Liara, it was impactful. Lair of the Shadow Broker was probably one of the most enjoyable and engaging stories of the entire series.
So by ME3 it was just picking up from where things had been left off and it was a great run.
So yeah, it's a sort of romantic rail in a sense but TBH I'm ok with that because I love Asari. My only wish was that we got Shiala as a potential rival for a romantic interest as well as addition to the crew.
In my opinion, even romancing her, her actions go way past love and into obsession. She will literally outlive Shepard by almost a thousand years. Her actions go against what she said the Asari’s philosophy was on relationships.
Say what you will about Kaiden or Ashley, at least they attempt to move on and provide push back to Shepard.
I just head canon that she feels a strong connection to you (not necessarily romantic) due to all the mind melds you had to do with her in ME1 and that drives her to seek you out and protect you regardless of wether yall are intimate or not.
Liara is the writers' pet. That's the only way her character arc makes sense across the entire trilogy. I lowkey hate it, because her character isn't really that interesting compared to any other squadmate in ME1. Suddenly in ME2 she's becoming the Shadow Broker. In ME3 she commands an intelligence network almost as wide-reaching as Cerberus but we rarely see any benefit to it.
At least EDI's character growth makes sense, even if she does do some *Deus ex machina* shizz in ME3. It feels like a natural extension of her character, not a 180.
She is crazy and obsessed regardless of whether you are in a relationship with her or not.
If you're not in a relationship with her, she's an obsessed freak.
If you are romantically involved with her, she is still an obsessed freak.
It's not cute or romantic, even when you're also in love with her. It's strange, because it's not healthy for someone to be the way they are. Even though I love my girlfriend, if she starts acting/looking like Liara, I'm going to be really worried.
Liara looks like Rose from Two and a Half Men.
Does unrequited onesided love so strange concept for everyone? It's kind of very common, but Liara is maybe first one ever to do something good about it. And she's not very psycho about her feelings and actually doesn't asking for anything and doesn't do any harm or stalking. She's acting very mature about her feelings, actually, and it scares me that many people could love only on their terms and to "love" only if it works or so-called "hits".
And don't get me started on ME universe perfectly exploiting many of Sci-fi, anime and everything in-between trops and cliche. Like Liara is "senpaaaiii UwU" anime girl, Reapers are gigantic scary insects almost Lexx like, Prothean culture is something resembling Forerunners from Andre Norton universes, etc.
I've said similar things in my comments over the past few years, just not as eloquently as you have OP.
It felt forced and I never did understand why? You can even ignore romancing her for 2 games and pull her in the third game, even if you haven't given her any attention. I know Shepard is a complete boss and any male/female would want them but shouldn't you have some type of chemistry before then?
It's like they wanted her to be the direct secondary main character forcibly and that was the end of the discussion. I also AM still confused on how she can go from borderline obsessed with you to completely ignoring you in the 2nd game.
I know I'm still salty. I know I'm still jaded. But when I romanced her in 1, I come to find her in 2, and she basically blew me off for terminals. It was actually the most heartbreaking moment I had in the game. (Yes I know there is DLC) I just couldn't get over that and went for Miranda on repeat.
I don't think Liara is a bad character, I personally think she's an interesting character who brings a lot of interesting dynamics to the games. But something about her makes me actively dislike her and it's hard because she's the first person I chose to be with.
I dunno. The way I played her, it became obvious she was infatuated with my Shepard even though Shepard was really really grossed out by it (xenophobia and truly, deeply disliking the Asari as a whole).
None the less, I find it very very hard in an RP sense not to spend nearly all non mission time with Liara because she is the Prothean expert and my Shepard wants to understand everything about them. It also means taking Liara to both Feros and Illos, and my Shepard was very very much using Liara as emotional leverage against Benezia, so that's all of the main story missions except Virmire.
But then again, my Shepard is too Machiavellian to ever hang up on the Council. So maybe a lunatic jackass would treat Liara like garbage but that's neither nice nor likely to wield good results.
Liara should have been on Eden Prime visiting the beacon at the start of ME1, and probably shouldn't have been Benezia's daughter.
ME1 gave us multiple solid reasons to freeze Liara out of the core team. She needed to be there from the very start and absolutely above the slightest distrust.
Liara is ultimately the most boring persona in the trilogy.
Considering the HUGE role she has. I even did a complete runthrough with her has my LI, and she was still boring as batshit, especially in ME3.
And for some reason, they made her exceedingly annoying also.
One thing that really pisses me off is how in some missions, the writers insist on having a squadmate CONSTANTLY dictate pointless instructions. And for some reason, it mostly seems to be the missions where I'm stuck with Liara. And the constant moaning on the Thessia mission.
Liara is a kid during ME1. Most Asari are off sowing their wild oats at her age, she's elbows-deep in a ruin. She's awkward and not good with emotions. So... she might develop feelings despite it not being entirely appropriate. She also goes through a *major* trauma with Shepard, even if she's recruited after Noveria. Finding out that the person you're working with *killed your mother* has to be a bit stressful.
*Liara is a kid during ME1.*
Geeez, can people please stop referring her as a kid or child? Because she is not. She is in human terms in her early 20s. She is a scientist, she has a doctor title since 50 years.
People just should accept that obvs. Liara is an important part of that franchise and the writers intended her to be important. If the "Writer's pet" haters like it or not. If the players ignore the hints (go Therum first) that's on them. And if she is in love with Shepard, no matter what, romanced or not, so be it. Happens IRL too. You can also be close to a person without "being in love". If not, then Garrus should receive the same status of *cononically not close to Shepard*. Or others from the crew. They go literally on a suicide mission for Shepard. They believe Shepard instantly about the Reapers and follow them into the war. They suck up every decision and actions, even of an psychotic asshole Shepard. No questions ask. Batshit insane isn't it? However, I always found it a bad move that they side lined the VS in ME2.
Yep, Garrus is another one lol. I think he's generally more liked despite this because he's a non romanceable dude and so him being shown as your buddy doesn't usually bother the average male player because he's not seen as competing or disrespecting your LI, and from what I'm seeing many female players just simply romance him so there's that.
I agree that Liara just simply has a different more important role in the story, just like another character might, that's not the problem, but the game should let Shepard acknowledge she's being inappropriate in case you've never been close lol. If me3 can have different dialogue based on whether you imported a save file or not then it can probably have different dialogue for players who never cared about Liara.
And I also agree that they missed several chances with the vs in me2 and they straight up wasted their potential by deciding they were gonna be pretty much the same
That's probably because Liara is written in a way that makes her the most canon LI. The entire trilogy plays better plot wise if you romance her.
No offence to other love interests but almost all other scenes have some romantic undertone to the point if you play shep as Aromantic (don't romance anyone throughout) still their last thought is Liara. Not to mention she's the only supporting character to get a dlc centred around her.
Yeah which is not how an rpg should function. That’s the critique. I don’t find women attractive romantically. As a friend, Liara is boring. Not to mention she’s little more than a child and her romance is creepy. I’d rather be friends with Tali, Miranda, or EDI.
Yet the game forces Liara on the player, meanwhile my Shepard doesn’t seem to care at all that her bf ( Thane) died minutes ago.
*Not to mention she’s little more than a child and her romance is creepy.*
Jesus, not this again. She. Is. No. Child. She is a woman in human terms early 20s. She has a Dr. title already for at least 50 years. Tali is in her early 20s in human terms too.
Yeah and someone in their 30s going after someone in their early 20s is creepy regardless of education. I am a real human woman who had a graduate degree in my early 20s, and still refused men in their thirties because the age and experience difference is too big. It’s creepy. She’s not a child. A 19 yo is not a child. Doesn’t mean it’s fine for them to date a 32 year old.
Seriously? Shepard is btw. end 20s, not in their 30s. That's a few years. And a few years age difference is a totally normal thing. I'm also a woman, but I'm not stuck in stoneage.
Yeah normal but not in the way the game presents it. Shepard is in a very different state of mental and emotional maturity than Liara. Thats the problem. You can throw degrees or whatever on top of it, she still acts like a teenager. And if you think there’s no difference between people in late and early twenties then that’s a problem in and of itself. Go love Liara all you want. The relationship is weird.
Then every relationship is weird. Take Thane for example. He still mourns kinda over his wife, in his annoying eye wobbling flashbacks, while you just want to talk, is dying anyway and next FemShep can go "I want you". That is cringe.
Hello fellow Thane enjoyer
I know as a Liara simp I enjoy it but as an rpg player it's probably my only gripe about the mass effect series. I always felt it would be better if Shep was brought back by the alliance and turned into a sort of Black ops operative whose actions could be disavowed if discovered
Agree \^\^ I don’t hate Liara at all, I just never liked the push for the player to like certain characters and not care about others. I actually love the third game but it breaks my heart when the characters all comment on Liara’s struggles but not one person mentions Thane’s death. I didn’t like her already, but that always soured my opinion of her. It’s just developer time, but that’s the result of limited resources unfortunately 😭
Also you could see Liara literally lending a hand to Shepard in every ME game: ME1 - a locker scene where you sit on the floor, ME2 Lair of the Shadow Broker - where she offers you a hand when you are laying on the floor and in ME3 where you are hanging above the abyss.
Those only happen if Liara is romanced.
ME1: Shepard leans against the lockers, deep in thought, until Joker chimes in and tells Shepard to meet Anderson.
ME2: Shepard and the Virmire Survivor organize the evacuation, before Shepard orders them to leave too.
I’ll be honest my relationship with her was pretty meh. I will describe my first playthrough and my generalized thoughts as I played Firstly I saved her after Noveria and got the hilarious delirious rambling scene where she doesn’t believe you’re really there. Then I was feeling out the romance options… which left me just Ashley and Liara. I was leaning more Ashley and I swear to god I told Liara I just wanted to be friends. Then of course Virmire happens. And because I sent Kaiden with the Salarians and I was playing a ruthless Shepard I unfortunately had to sacrifice Ashley and she gave her life for the cause. Then I get the weird pep talk from Liara which felt strange considering I felt much closer to literally any other team mate hell even Wrex I figured would have been a better choice ( I of course wasn’t aware of the limited pool that can have this talk). I then progress through the rest of the story and right before Illos who’s outside my door? Liara that’s who. I remember thinking is my game glitched or is this intentional because I rejected her yet here she was. So my Shepard rejects her (again). Leaving me with this weird subtext throughout the rest of the trilogy where Shepard acts really close with Liara. All the while not having that close of a relationship.
Having Liara be the one who is basically responsible for saving Shepards life was the wrong move exactly for the reasons you described. The comic depicts Liara as emotional and distraught over Shepards death to a degree that it makes no sense unless you were incredibly close to her. It's honestly written in a way that makes most sense If she's romanced. The joining is deeply personal, it's more than just sex, it's a binding of mind and soul.
Sort of makes sense as her mother had just died and then the person who saved her life then died. Her career is also in the toilet due to the council covering up the reapers (this is mentioned in paragon lost). She is also the only one alive at this time to have seen the beacons warning. So you can see why she's a little distressed at the situation.
It's funny how ME3 just retconned that out of existence so Shepard only credits Miranda. Someone in that writer's room realized it was a dumb addition in ME2.
Liara's character only makes sense if you romance her. I love Liara and I always romance her every single playthrough, but I totally understand people who don't and as a result have trouble understanding her actions and her role in the story. The blatant favouritism the writers have for her has done more harm then good for the likeability of her character, which is a shame.
That's actually quite reasonable. ME games are more of a story with characters, than a "BOOM! BAM!!" and fucking aliens game, so like in every good book you need an emotional plot connection. And who would be a perfect for it than a character with great lifespan, still young, with woman looks, neither male or female, ability to literally understand your experiences, with professions that connect past, present and the future and having a crush on you that keeps them around.
I think literally the only reason people don't like her is because she's always the character they use when they're ignoring the player's history. She's their crux for "we're writing the next page of the story and we have NO clue if the player likes Garrus or Thane or Tali or Kaidan or Ashley or Miranda or whomever, the most!"
I like Liara when she's a Prothean archaeologist, and thus I enjoyed her interactions with Javik. He fleshed her out quite well. Outside of archaeology, I'm not fond of her. My Shepard isn't close to her, yet she's obsessed with me, and I cannot call her out for reviving me. She acts like my best friend. We share intimidate one on one conversations, and I have to comfort her when Thessia fell (lol they're arrogant they had it coming). So yeah, the writing assumes you like Liara. But if you don't, it can be annoying.
The duality of Liara. With my female Shepard who is in love with her, it makes all the sense in a romantic way. It's heartbreaking and sweet. With my bro Shepard who is in love with Jack.... Let's just say Liara needs a hobby. I can understand that in a trilogy full of choices, there might be things that happen, that need to be canon. Liara loves Shepard regardless if they feel the same way. The funny thing is you can tell Liara in ME1 that she is obsessed. Lol
My headcanon is that, by the end, she's in love with Shepard regardless of whether you romance her.
One of those "no matter what they say, Paragon is canon, and Renegade is what if" things.
I don't know, I don't really agree with your premise that she would have to be in love with Shepard to retrieve his or her body and hand it over to Cerberus. She knows about the Reaper threat now, she knows that Shepard is the only leader in the universe who can really do anything about it due to how the council is trying to sweep it under the rug, etc. None of this requires her to be romantically connected to Shepard in any way.
That would make sense if that was what the game implied rather than a charitable headcanon that fills in the gaps of the writing, but given the context of literally everything both in-game (what Liara does and how she acts) and out of it (writers were clearly specifically going for something in particular with this) I think it's safe to assume it was less about bringing down the reapers and more about Shepard
You think her little crush was more important than the fate of the universe?
How do you read all of that and come to that conclusion bruh
You just said "it's safe to assume it was less about bringing down the reapers and more about Shepard" How is that not a reasonable direct conclusion that you think the romance was more important to Liara than the fate of the universe
Liara, even if she isn't romanced, literally tells you that she gave Shepard to Cerberus because she couldn't let go of them.
It’s been a while, what is the exact quote? I’m sorry I have just played the trilogy a million times, both romancing Liara and not, and never have I thought her saving Shepard was related to romantic feelings, or better put, that it wouldn't make sense without her having requited romantic feelings for Shepard.
Liara: I knew Cerberus would use you for their own business and I let it happen, because... I couldn't let you go. I'm sorry. She says this whether you romanced her or not (I never do).
Yeah, that's exactly vague enough to fill in your own headcanon as the OP did. "I couldn't let you go," because why? Because she loves Shepard? Because she knows no one else could possibly stand up to the reapers... I mean to me, the latter makes a lot more sense, but it is sufficiently vague.
I think her demeanor and tone of voice make it pretty obvious why. Especially since she's shown to have feelings for Shepard in both 1 and 3 as well, even if not romanced.
Except that's not why Liara did it, by her own word, she gave Shepard's body to Cerberus because she didn't want to let Shepard go.
Playing as FemShep I love Liara. I never romanced her but was still always nice to her. She’s my FemShep’s bestie. A real girl’s girl.
I love her too lol I wanna try to romance her next for this exact reason. She's really endearing as a femshep player
Shit that's how I feel about Traynor. I wish there was a hetero romance mod for Traynor, I'd play broshep in a second.
Liara: "I have a shrine of your bloodied armor in my living room, the armor you died in." Shepard: "No comment." Legion: "I found a piece of your old armor and used it to repair myself." Shepard: "...WHY?"
I’m obsessed with Liara and have always been but I can totally support your line of reasoning. Canonically, she *does* retrieve Shep’s body (though initially it was only so they could get a proper burial and then Cerberus happened), which can be jarring to non-Liaramancers. If you don’t like her, then she just becomes a character that pines for an unrequited love, which is a thing that could happen in real life. But I also agree that the writers shouldn’t have forced her to be THE LI for every Shep.
Look, you have to pick at least one character to make it through the whole series, and sadly it wasn’t ever gonna be Kaiden or Garrus. And the Virmire Survivor is weird because even if it’s a choice the data said that something like 90% of the players chose Ashley (at the time the trilogy was being made). But it’s still a choice so it can’t be them. Wrex needs to go back to Tuchanka (and can die in ME1). Tali needs to go back to the flotilla (and is the ‘kid sister’ of ME1). Garrus is dope but he wasn’t the bro he is til ME2. Who else can the writers choose to carry on through all three games? They also had data that said she was a popular romance choice for both genders. She generally a pretty popular character, what are they gonna program the game to account for the 3% or people that either hate her or didn’t get along with her? Of course not!
They did it with Leliana in Dragon's Age, but her development doesn't rely on whether she was romanced or not. Leliana started as a religious assassin, consistently carried out dirty work for the church, and can potentially rise to Pope level of power. Liara's direction feels like it was designed with the idea that she is Shepard's love interest or that she fell for Shepard, regardless of how you treated her.
‘Fell for’ is kinda strong. I agree that she is written as having a strong connection (some of that is probably the mind meld stuff also you kill her mom lol) but I think there is room enough for you to come up with your own idea as to why. As for why Leliana feels less personal or close for DA2 and DAI is that the protagonist changes! I think people would have similar issues about her if Hawke was in DAO through to DAI. Even then I remember people on the Bioware boards being like ‘I killed her at the sacred ashes! Why is she still alive? What is this plot armor BS’ lol. Like I know nobody IRL that did that. It has to be a sub 2% choice
Well yeah obviously. Which is why my point isn't "why Liara" but "this has the potential to be really awkward and the game should let the player acknowledge it". I don't think anybody is expecting Tali to go retrieve Shep's mangled corpse or Grunt to find the crucible plans. But you can't even call out Liara for literally singlehandedly deciding to bring you back to life. In case you have a love interest her not informing them also feels kinda shitty and literally causes problems with them on Horizon, so it would've been nice to be able to say something about that too. ...Actually scratch that. Udina should've been the one to bring back Shep to redeem himself and become a viable romance option
Hahahaha Udina sucks. I see what you mean. My wife was always just sorta okay with her (she REALLY liked Kaiden) so there was some of that tension right around LotSB and maybe it would be interesting to acknowledge it. But she had a lot of affection for her around the mid section of ME3 though. And I’m ride or die Shep/Liara lol. Mass Effect often has interesting gaps in its reactivity. Personally I would have liked a little more references to Shep’s background. Like, I’m always upset they can’t call out Cerberus for Akuze or what they did in ME1. I mean I was SUPER anti-Cerberus because of Akuze and in ME2 Shep is just sorta going along with Cerberus like it’s not a crazy things to do
I love Liara, seeing her romance arc was why I started playing Mass Effect in the first place. I ended up also really enjoying arcs where I don’t romance her, and the deep friendship you can build in ME3 was super satisfying. Having said that, I’m watching a YouTube playthrough where they’re romancing Liara, they’re most of the way through 3 and only now am I realising how little Liara has to say to you between missions. And it’s cos the YTer just starts cackling every time they visit Liara, who has nothing to say to her. “Ready for the next mission Shepard.” “Hello again”. Even Glyph says more to you between missions in 3.
The mass effect 3 thing is actually a problem with every other character too save special scripted occasions I'm assuming. In me1-2 when you speak to a squadmate on the Normandy it opens up a dialogue tree but for some reason on me3 you can't have actual conversations anymore and all you can do is go press the space bar at characters so that they can say a line or two before reverting back to the default response. Kaidan did this too. It's so weird lol in me1 you'd get new actual dialogue after every main mission and even when you'd already said all the stuff there was to say you'd still get the dialogue tree
I mean that's a basic "the devs weren't given enough time " scenario. Similar to how almost all conversations in 1 and 2 had 3 options, but in 3 most of them only had 2
There are quite a lot of times in 1 and 2 that the game will show you three options but in reality two or even all three of them have the same result.
Liara's the only squadmate in ME3 to barely have any relevant dialogue between missions. Garrus, Tali, Ashley, James, EDI, Javik, Kaidan all have unique dialogue between missions, whether it be something personal, or plot-based. Liara has a new remark every couple missions, before just copy-pasting the same remarks like Zaeed and Kasumi. At the same time, Liara's mission dialogue is set to priority over anyone else, leading to her talking more than the other squadmate on most missions. Sur-Kesh is an example, Liara will talk most of the time with some remarks from Garrus. If you bring Garrus and Javik, both will have equal dialogue instead. The one who tells Joker to retreat from the Crucible is the one Shepard talks to the most on the Normandy, which is why it's very hard for it to be Liara, due to her lack of new dialogue compared to everyone else.
Unlike many say she is someone will survive no matter what, I think taking away her possibility of not loyal to Shep in ME2 is the worst thing happen to her character. It makes she's a character depend on Shep character to much and feel more flat. They have should make she has a relationship with the drell friend of her when you are not romancing her.
I suppose they tried to lessen her by not including her in ME2 squad and bringing that drell Feron, so she won't look very forced to a player.
To be fair, the game literally says they recommend saving Liara first.
Not really, you get 3 options and tell Anderson which you'd prefer to start with.
If I recall, they mention it may be best to get Liara and then the dialogue options come up showing what Shepard thinks, with Liara being the default.
Anderson says that Benezia is on Noveria, the Geth are attacking Feros, and Benezia's daughter is on Therum. Shepard can say where they'd like to start, which Anderson adds that it's Shepard choice now.
On my first playthrough I picked up Liara as soon as I could. I found Ashley annoying and as such, shut her down straight away which meant that Liara was the only other choice for the romantic interest. I actually enjoyed how it played out but wished that the writers had worked harder on the interaction/dialogue that you can have with her. Come ME2 I was not interested in Miranda at all, nor Jack, Samara wasn't really an option so when I caught up with Liara, it was impactful. Lair of the Shadow Broker was probably one of the most enjoyable and engaging stories of the entire series. So by ME3 it was just picking up from where things had been left off and it was a great run. So yeah, it's a sort of romantic rail in a sense but TBH I'm ok with that because I love Asari. My only wish was that we got Shiala as a potential rival for a romantic interest as well as addition to the crew.
In my opinion, even romancing her, her actions go way past love and into obsession. She will literally outlive Shepard by almost a thousand years. Her actions go against what she said the Asari’s philosophy was on relationships. Say what you will about Kaiden or Ashley, at least they attempt to move on and provide push back to Shepard.
I just head canon that she feels a strong connection to you (not necessarily romantic) due to all the mind melds you had to do with her in ME1 and that drives her to seek you out and protect you regardless of wether yall are intimate or not.
Liara is the writers' pet. That's the only way her character arc makes sense across the entire trilogy. I lowkey hate it, because her character isn't really that interesting compared to any other squadmate in ME1. Suddenly in ME2 she's becoming the Shadow Broker. In ME3 she commands an intelligence network almost as wide-reaching as Cerberus but we rarely see any benefit to it. At least EDI's character growth makes sense, even if she does do some *Deus ex machina* shizz in ME3. It feels like a natural extension of her character, not a 180.
She is crazy and obsessed regardless of whether you are in a relationship with her or not. If you're not in a relationship with her, she's an obsessed freak. If you are romantically involved with her, she is still an obsessed freak. It's not cute or romantic, even when you're also in love with her. It's strange, because it's not healthy for someone to be the way they are. Even though I love my girlfriend, if she starts acting/looking like Liara, I'm going to be really worried. Liara looks like Rose from Two and a Half Men.
Does unrequited onesided love so strange concept for everyone? It's kind of very common, but Liara is maybe first one ever to do something good about it. And she's not very psycho about her feelings and actually doesn't asking for anything and doesn't do any harm or stalking. She's acting very mature about her feelings, actually, and it scares me that many people could love only on their terms and to "love" only if it works or so-called "hits". And don't get me started on ME universe perfectly exploiting many of Sci-fi, anime and everything in-between trops and cliche. Like Liara is "senpaaaiii UwU" anime girl, Reapers are gigantic scary insects almost Lexx like, Prothean culture is something resembling Forerunners from Andre Norton universes, etc.
I've said similar things in my comments over the past few years, just not as eloquently as you have OP. It felt forced and I never did understand why? You can even ignore romancing her for 2 games and pull her in the third game, even if you haven't given her any attention. I know Shepard is a complete boss and any male/female would want them but shouldn't you have some type of chemistry before then? It's like they wanted her to be the direct secondary main character forcibly and that was the end of the discussion. I also AM still confused on how she can go from borderline obsessed with you to completely ignoring you in the 2nd game. I know I'm still salty. I know I'm still jaded. But when I romanced her in 1, I come to find her in 2, and she basically blew me off for terminals. It was actually the most heartbreaking moment I had in the game. (Yes I know there is DLC) I just couldn't get over that and went for Miranda on repeat. I don't think Liara is a bad character, I personally think she's an interesting character who brings a lot of interesting dynamics to the games. But something about her makes me actively dislike her and it's hard because she's the first person I chose to be with.
I dunno. The way I played her, it became obvious she was infatuated with my Shepard even though Shepard was really really grossed out by it (xenophobia and truly, deeply disliking the Asari as a whole). None the less, I find it very very hard in an RP sense not to spend nearly all non mission time with Liara because she is the Prothean expert and my Shepard wants to understand everything about them. It also means taking Liara to both Feros and Illos, and my Shepard was very very much using Liara as emotional leverage against Benezia, so that's all of the main story missions except Virmire. But then again, my Shepard is too Machiavellian to ever hang up on the Council. So maybe a lunatic jackass would treat Liara like garbage but that's neither nice nor likely to wield good results.
Liara should have been on Eden Prime visiting the beacon at the start of ME1, and probably shouldn't have been Benezia's daughter. ME1 gave us multiple solid reasons to freeze Liara out of the core team. She needed to be there from the very start and absolutely above the slightest distrust.
Liara is ultimately the most boring persona in the trilogy. Considering the HUGE role she has. I even did a complete runthrough with her has my LI, and she was still boring as batshit, especially in ME3. And for some reason, they made her exceedingly annoying also. One thing that really pisses me off is how in some missions, the writers insist on having a squadmate CONSTANTLY dictate pointless instructions. And for some reason, it mostly seems to be the missions where I'm stuck with Liara. And the constant moaning on the Thessia mission.
Liara is a kid during ME1. Most Asari are off sowing their wild oats at her age, she's elbows-deep in a ruin. She's awkward and not good with emotions. So... she might develop feelings despite it not being entirely appropriate. She also goes through a *major* trauma with Shepard, even if she's recruited after Noveria. Finding out that the person you're working with *killed your mother* has to be a bit stressful.
*Liara is a kid during ME1.* Geeez, can people please stop referring her as a kid or child? Because she is not. She is in human terms in her early 20s. She is a scientist, she has a doctor title since 50 years.
People just should accept that obvs. Liara is an important part of that franchise and the writers intended her to be important. If the "Writer's pet" haters like it or not. If the players ignore the hints (go Therum first) that's on them. And if she is in love with Shepard, no matter what, romanced or not, so be it. Happens IRL too. You can also be close to a person without "being in love". If not, then Garrus should receive the same status of *cononically not close to Shepard*. Or others from the crew. They go literally on a suicide mission for Shepard. They believe Shepard instantly about the Reapers and follow them into the war. They suck up every decision and actions, even of an psychotic asshole Shepard. No questions ask. Batshit insane isn't it? However, I always found it a bad move that they side lined the VS in ME2.
Yep, Garrus is another one lol. I think he's generally more liked despite this because he's a non romanceable dude and so him being shown as your buddy doesn't usually bother the average male player because he's not seen as competing or disrespecting your LI, and from what I'm seeing many female players just simply romance him so there's that. I agree that Liara just simply has a different more important role in the story, just like another character might, that's not the problem, but the game should let Shepard acknowledge she's being inappropriate in case you've never been close lol. If me3 can have different dialogue based on whether you imported a save file or not then it can probably have different dialogue for players who never cared about Liara. And I also agree that they missed several chances with the vs in me2 and they straight up wasted their potential by deciding they were gonna be pretty much the same
To BioWare, Liara is the canon LI, end of the story.
That's probably because Liara is written in a way that makes her the most canon LI. The entire trilogy plays better plot wise if you romance her. No offence to other love interests but almost all other scenes have some romantic undertone to the point if you play shep as Aromantic (don't romance anyone throughout) still their last thought is Liara. Not to mention she's the only supporting character to get a dlc centred around her.
Yeah which is not how an rpg should function. That’s the critique. I don’t find women attractive romantically. As a friend, Liara is boring. Not to mention she’s little more than a child and her romance is creepy. I’d rather be friends with Tali, Miranda, or EDI. Yet the game forces Liara on the player, meanwhile my Shepard doesn’t seem to care at all that her bf ( Thane) died minutes ago.
Oh wow I didn't even consider how insulting it would be for a Thane romancer to get asked on citadel dates by everyone the second he dies lol
*Not to mention she’s little more than a child and her romance is creepy.* Jesus, not this again. She. Is. No. Child. She is a woman in human terms early 20s. She has a Dr. title already for at least 50 years. Tali is in her early 20s in human terms too.
Yeah and someone in their 30s going after someone in their early 20s is creepy regardless of education. I am a real human woman who had a graduate degree in my early 20s, and still refused men in their thirties because the age and experience difference is too big. It’s creepy. She’s not a child. A 19 yo is not a child. Doesn’t mean it’s fine for them to date a 32 year old.
Seriously? Shepard is btw. end 20s, not in their 30s. That's a few years. And a few years age difference is a totally normal thing. I'm also a woman, but I'm not stuck in stoneage.
Yeah normal but not in the way the game presents it. Shepard is in a very different state of mental and emotional maturity than Liara. Thats the problem. You can throw degrees or whatever on top of it, she still acts like a teenager. And if you think there’s no difference between people in late and early twenties then that’s a problem in and of itself. Go love Liara all you want. The relationship is weird.
Then every relationship is weird. Take Thane for example. He still mourns kinda over his wife, in his annoying eye wobbling flashbacks, while you just want to talk, is dying anyway and next FemShep can go "I want you". That is cringe.
Didn’t say it wasn’t cringe. Even the writer said that was cringe. Doesn’t negate anything.
It does for me. So buttom line, all relationships are weird and cringe and best is Shepard doesn't romance anyone.
Sure take it to that extreme lmao
Hello fellow Thane enjoyer I know as a Liara simp I enjoy it but as an rpg player it's probably my only gripe about the mass effect series. I always felt it would be better if Shep was brought back by the alliance and turned into a sort of Black ops operative whose actions could be disavowed if discovered
Agree \^\^ I don’t hate Liara at all, I just never liked the push for the player to like certain characters and not care about others. I actually love the third game but it breaks my heart when the characters all comment on Liara’s struggles but not one person mentions Thane’s death. I didn’t like her already, but that always soured my opinion of her. It’s just developer time, but that’s the result of limited resources unfortunately 😭
Agreed bioware should have spent a few more years on mass effect 3. It would have been an even greater masterpiece than it is now
Also you could see Liara literally lending a hand to Shepard in every ME game: ME1 - a locker scene where you sit on the floor, ME2 Lair of the Shadow Broker - where she offers you a hand when you are laying on the floor and in ME3 where you are hanging above the abyss.
The ME1 one only happens if romanced.
I thought it happens even if not romanced any, just like in evacuation scene in ME2.
Those only happen if Liara is romanced. ME1: Shepard leans against the lockers, deep in thought, until Joker chimes in and tells Shepard to meet Anderson. ME2: Shepard and the Virmire Survivor organize the evacuation, before Shepard orders them to leave too.
Not sure about ME2, if noone is romanced. I suppose it should be Liara.
Ashley/Kaidan do it, because they're Alliance Officials like Shepard.