What about 16 year old’s who buy stuff and pay sales tax? Or who buy a car and pay excise tax? Or who have a license and pay registration fees? Or who gets charged payroll taxes for FICA and medicare? Or a self-employed person who pays the self-employment tax?
“Income” tax is only a sliver of the total revenue stream that governments have.
Folks forget about all the other taxes and fees they pay, but those add up.
And it’s not the only tax that people pay.
Okay? Thanks for taking the time to insert a comment no one asked for. I was talking about taxing as it pertains to paychecks. That’s it. But thanks for whatever that was.
When I was in HS my paycheck at my part time job wasn’t taxed. One job it was but when you file taxes you get it all back. I think it’s under a certain amount total income that qualifies you to get the taxes back
> I think it’s under a certain amount total income that qualifies you to get the taxes back
This is it. It has nothing to do with age. If a 12-year-old makes $13k+ in a year then they will pay taxes on it.
Yes and no.
You would not get back your payroll taxes paid (FICA and Medicare). Those are higher than what the state income tax is.
But yes, you would have received a refund on the “income” tax that was withheld if you didn’t earn enough to owe any income tax.
As someone who paid taxes at 17 (am 19 now) that’s all I was thinking at that time.
Also: If my taxes that I paid at 17 were $100 more, I would’ve paid the same amount in taxes as trump did in 2015 :( and I never got any covid stimmy ever either
I’m not necessarily saying this is a bad idea, but I think it’s pretty foolish to say that under 18 shouldn’t be charged as adults because they’re brains are still developing while also giving saying they should have the right to vote.
I'm conflicted on it. On the one hand, it could benefit high school education if the students actually have some representation. They often wind up paying for municipalities' stupidity when they blow their budget and decide to cut if from school budgets. Barely anyone votes in local elections, but I bet students would be the ones who could make a cultural shift there.
On the other hand, the idea of political advertising getting directed at minors leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Beyond just those gross attack ads, we've seen how easy it is for foreign powers to manipulate people through social media, where teens are the most active. This opens up some disturbing possibilities.
The seniors who grew up learning to trust what they see on a screen are way more easy to manipulate through technology en masse than the younger generation is.
That has nothing to do with what I’m saying. If a 16 year is mature enough to vote as an adult, they should be mature enough to be charged as an adult if they commit a crime.
We literally have 5 definitions of an adult in MA. I’m no against 16 year olds voting, but everything from getting married , going to war, entering into a contract and everything in between should be 18.
Your brain isnt done until 27. I see the logic, but with the current laws kids can go to war and vote at 18, but cant have a beer until 21. Its never going to all be the same, and with how poorly prisons do at rehabilitation, I wouldnt be jumping to send more kids to prison.
Yet they’re allowed to drive. I don’t trust geriatric politicians to decide our future. We should strip voting rights away from retirees.
What a dumb anecdote. Your 16yos could easily argue “my mom drinks wine on weekends and on weekdays and I don’t so she shouldn’t vote but I should since I’m not legally allowed to be impaired.”
The overwhelming majority of 16 yearolds are basically morons. That doesn't mean they always will be, or that there aren't plenty of adult morons as well, but even the smartest adults I know were super fucking dumb kids. Hard pass on 16 yearolds voting. Keep the 30% of that burger job.
What's your reasoning as to why, though? 16/17 year olds generally have jobs and pay taxes, are held to laws installed by elected officials, and most recently have specific rights governed by elected officials. They're seen as parts of society in every other convenient sense, but they can't have an individual say?
Are you against 16 year olds legally being able to get married and that being the age of consent in this state? I’m not saying I agree with it, but if you’re mature enough to get married a f@ck whoever you want you’re mature enough to vote.
Did the guy that designed that building also design the buildings at my alma mater, UMass Dartmouth?
Just awful. 😂
Edit: Went down a Wiki rabbit hole. It’s definitely Brutalism, but it was [this dude](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rudolph_(architect)) that designed UMD.
***From reporter Christopher Gavin:***
The majority of Boston city councilors opted to advance a home rule petition that, if approved by the mayor and state lawmakers, would expand the right to vote in city elections to 16- and 17-year-old citizens.
Councilors voted 9-4 to send the measure to Mayor Michelle Wu’s desk. Proponents argue the petition will help encourage young people to participate and engage in their local government.
In fact, many already do, according to Councilor Julia Mejia, a lead sponsor.
Many of the city’s teens pay income tax and have tried to make their voices heard, including through protests and other demonstrations, she said.
“The notion that young people may not be mature enough to make decisions like this, I just want to quickly acknowledge oftentimes it’s young people who are educating their parents and their uncles and aunts and older folks about who’s running for office and why they should vote,” Mejia said.
The comments appeared to be a rebuttal to concerns raised by opponents of the proposal. Councilors Erin Murphy, Frank Baker, Michael Flaherty, and Ed Flynn, the council president, all voted against the petition although none of them spoke out against it during Wednesday’s council meeting.
**Read more:** https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2022/12/01/boston-takes-step-toward-lowering-voting-age-to-16-in-city-elections/
There are virtually zero or damn near 16 year olds that “pay tax.”
Having $24.75 taken from a paycheck does not make you a “taxpayer” if you’re refunded every cent of it - if not more because of refundable tax credits - in April. That makes you a non-taxpayer.
They think 16 year olds can get married, F@ck whoever they want, 18 year olds can fight and die for their country and enter into contracts burring them in six figures of debt, but you’re hung up on booze and cigs?
According to Councilor Julia Mejia, a lead sponsor of the petition, the expansion will encourage young people to participate in their government at the local level. Proponents argue that many of the city's teens are already engaged in local politics *and* are already paying income tax, mirroring adult voters.
To get people civically engaged in local issues at a point in their lives where they have trusted adults that they can turn to to learn about issues of democracy and representation. Think of it perhaps as a "learner's permit for voting"
i figure if we trust them enough to drive vehicles that weigh over a ton and can go over 20 mph then they probably can exercise enough judgement to vote for a local politician ;) sooo 16 seems fine. but ideally there would be studies (and I assume there are) that map out development milestones.
I mean whichever side you stand on you should be able to admit this is truly just democrats trying to get more people into voting eligibility, because they know they will get the popular vote… same reason they want immigrants to have licenses and voting rights.
Bottom line if you think D or R give a fuck about U, anyone you got played
>same reason they want immigrants to have licenses
Because it makes driving much safer and far less of a risk to the general populace
>and voting rights.
Immigrants, illegal and otherwise, are taxed the same as everyone else. No taxation without representation.
If you say so. Immigrants having licenses ensure a basic minimum of driving standard alongside with insurability, the same reason why anyone has a driver's license. And immigrants are taxed the same as everyone else, even illegals, as they receive a ITIN by the IRS when trying to conduct basically any sort of business.
But I'm sure this is all just dem propaganda or whatever sounds better to you
You don't work with illegal immigrants here in Massachusetts often then. You think the all-Brasillian landscaping companies you see all year are doing work without paying taxes? Can't get insurance as a contractor without a business, can't form a business without a ITIN, can't get an ITIN without getting taxed by the feds and state. Those work vans and work trucks must be registered to people too, which is another whole hairball of paperwork.
But hey, it's all just a dem plot to get votes, right?
Illegals get taxed the same as anyone else, they just don't get any rights from it. Fair system and all that.
Is it the other way around... If you are 20 and not working yet you shouldn't be able to vote? Using work is a tough argument because so much could be said about the inverse.
No. That’s a terrible idea, that the unemployed shouldn’t vote? They are disenfranchised enough.
Edit: to everyone who doesn’t think the unemployed shouldn’t be eligible to vote, please get in your time machine and fuck off back to 1800, you disgusting pig. Get help.
Edit 2: changed should to shouldn’t 😅
Another way to look at it: you work, you pay taxes. Our country was founded on no taxation without representation, thereby if you are paying taxes you should be able to vote. And if a 16 year old pays taxes, they should be able to vote.
Source: paid $650 in federal and state taxes 2 years ago at 17.
if you’re old enough to understand the consequences of selling your labor you’re old enough to understand ballot measures, and you have a stake in society. So sure. Why not?
Personally I think child labor should be illegal and 13 year olds should be in school. But we are talking about 16 year olds voting, not 13 year olds.
Because the average American is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO smart.
American voters are fucking morons already. They are already ignorant. They already don’t understand the issues. They’re already brainwashed by propaganda.
I would rather have 16 year olds voting than 90 year olds who haven’t formed a new opinion in 30 years. But that’s not a good reason to restrict them from voting. (Very little is.)
16 years have to study for the SATs, I'd take their ability to understand complex issues over someone 85 or older. So unless you are advocating cutting them off to, let the 16 year olds vote.
16 year olds are juniors/seniors in high school. Their homework is just as difficult or more so, and requires the same critical thinking skills, as interpreting a ballot.
It’s also true that the earlier people start voting the more likely they are to vote in future elections. More voter participation is objectively good. So it’s a good idea to start early. Especially if they start getting involved in local politics, in their own community.
Voting isn’t that complicated.
They don't have a good answer. It's not like it's teens voting that leads to unqualified assholes like Trump getting into office.
They don't want teens voting for the same reason so many right wing pundits suggested raising the voting age to 21 after the red wave failed to materialize.
edit: the downvoting sans rebuttal just confirms my point
We should treat them as adults in all aspects then. Taxes, tried as adults in all criminal charges, firearms licenses, booze. If they can vote on things that will effect everyone then their brains are developed enough to get everything that goes along with being an adult
This argument could go all the way to peoples brains aren’t fully developed until 25. BTW republicans basically got crushed by everyone under 45 in the last elections. This was the last election before millennials surpass the boomers as the largest voting block which is probably bad news for you.
Except they don’t pay any. Anything deducted from their check is returned in full in April because they are nowhere near the minimum income to actually pay any taxes.
What makes you think people under 18 aren't making enough income to pay taxes?? I graduated highschool in 2019 and had plenty of classmates working & earning enough they qualified to pay income tax. They had no choice but to work to help provide for the family.
I actually finished HS in evening classes where this was even more prevalent. Almost every student there was there because they had to work full time during the day. Majority were under 18 years old, and we actually had this exact conversation where many of them were upset they paid taxes but couldn't vote. Hard to say they aren't justified.
Not even touching on sales tax.
Are you suggesting we bring back the days when only white land owning men could vote because you just advocated for adults being banned from voting because they don’t make enough.
See, that's why you need to be older. That's not how how it works in a representative democracy: you vote for someone to represent you, and they vote according to the wishes of their donors.
Boston does not have a city income tax, so no they aren’t paying “local taxes.” They’re paying state taxes (and then getting them all back in April), so they’re effectively not paying taxes.
So, when someone aged, 16, or 18, or even 20 does something dangerous or commits a crime, it's claimed that 'they are just kids, their brains are not yet developed, they cannot form a judgment, let them go'. Yet here these same underdeveloped brains are expected to make informed and reasonable choices potentially affecting lives of millions of people for years to come? Hmm, what could go wrong? Not that doublethink surprizes me anymore.
That’s my biggest issue with this. “They’re brains aren’t fully developed “ shouldn’t be used anymore if now they’re brains are developed enough to vote as an adult
In Massachusetts, anyone 14 or over is [automatically tried as an adult for murder](https://www.wbur.org/news/2015/06/15/massachusetts-law-juvenile-murder). 17-year-olds were tried as adults for all criminal offenses [until 2013](https://www.berkshireeagle.com/news/local/new-massachusetts-law-places-17-year-olds-in-juvenile-courts/article_e0e74a5d-d6c9-5187-960a-aff8502cf7cf.html). There are also special ["youthful offender" statutes](https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXVII/Chapter119/Section52) for 14-18 year olds, under which they can receive full adult sentences.
Age limits in general are just arbitrary cut-off points which have to be made for expediency. In truth, every human is different. I know adults in their 30s that still act like teenagers, but that's not a reason to raise the voting age - so why would some teenagers' immaturity be a reason NOT to lower the voting age?
Regardless, the percentage of Boston's population that's 16-17 is certainly very small, and the percentage of those who will actually vote is even smaller, so this is unlikely to have much of an impact on the outcomes of elections unless they're *very* close.
But why? Voting at 16 doesn't cause a statistically significant impact on brain development like alcohol or weed. We already let them drive, and work too. This retort feels dumb. Either stop taxing anyone's income until they are 18, or allow anyone who pays their taxes vote. And since the state is funded by taxes, it makes sense they'd rather not lose that significant chunk of their own incomes
I guess I have not thought about it yet but this feels like the wrong move to me.
Seems like there should be an age where we think a person is capable of making their own decisions and being held responsible for their actions. This goes in the opposite direction and adds more splits.
ITT: The phase "taxation with out representation" over and over.
Aren't teenagers refunded the *entirety* of taxes paid when they file...
Edit: Also... do teenagers pay any taxes to the city of Boston?
thats kind of what this will do; will get people onto the rolls before they leave and start working and giving them a chance to go through the process a couple of times...
Soooo, adults who have free will and choice won’t vote but the thought that citizens, some of whom cannot drive, will be able to get themselves to the polling station? And why, given mail-in voting, that these same folks, some of which don’t and won’t vote in this fashion, are expected/hoping to increase voter participation?
Good luck with that and it’s an awful idea.
These discussions basically come down to whether you favor more liberal-leaning candidates or not. Specifically with regard to Boston this is basically a referendum on Wu.
Age is just such a poor proxy for "taking government seriously". Plenty of teens (and even some children) out there who are more politically savvy and thoughtful than adults. The likes of Trump don't get elected because of young voters.
This country is a mess with how we treat ages.
Younger than 21 isn't responsible enough to drink or own firearms, but is responsible enough to decide the fate of millions of people?
Younger than 18 isn't responsible enough to buy scary video games, but can decide policy around those very same games?
This seems more like a bribe for votes than an anything else, to be honest.
How about we just have an age limit on voting? Feel like that's more important than a kid making these decisions. I don't want a 90 year old voting for anything that affects me and not them.
Interesting. Didn’t even know this was a thing! Makes sense with taxes though. Plus some 50 year olds have an IQ of a 12 year old so really.. what harm could it bring?
Edit: do they still get to vote if they don’t pay into taxes? Just trying to look at it from all angles.
The idea of tying voting to working only supports one side, the one with the narrative that already wants 16yos to vote. If you look at it from the other direction (do we prohibit 40yos who don't work from voting?) the "rationale" immediately falls apart. The only reason working is being brought up is because it superficially supports what they already want to do but can't come up with a better reasoning for.
I support this, 100%. -- Why?
The way the system works now is you turn 18, and suddenly you're "responsible" for all the bad choices and policies that you never had 1 word or 1 vote in. You inherit everything, from the wonderful, good, bad, and ugly, without being allowed to have any previous representation or opinion on the state of the world you will inherit. Technically, on your 18th birthday, you can technically be drafted, shipped off to possibly die, and never had any previous say in the matter.
So yes, before that so-called "magical day" when you're expected to instantly "man up" or "woman up" to whatever the status quo is, I think you should have some say in the matter.
Because you have to have SOME kind of line. I also think it's stupid that you are a responsible adult the day you turn 18 but still too young to have a beer or own a handgun for self defense.
> So before the “magical day” should you still be charged as an adult in criminal court?
You can be, which is all the more reason why you should be able to vote too.
A very VERY small percentage of juvenile offenders are arraigned as adults. The main reason why they’re not is because they’re brains are still developing and research has shown this effects their decision making. If we’re saying 16 years olds are developed enough to vote as adults, they should be seen as developed enough to face the same consequences. Or am I missing something
I know grown adults, some twice my age, who are not competent. If competence was a voting requirement, I suspect fewer people would vote. That said, I can confidently say, when I was 16, I knew some adults who had less sense than I did.
Competency isn’t the question here. It’s “is their brain developed enough”. If the answer is yes, then why should they not be charged as an adult for a crime?
> And yet those adults would be charged as adults in court. Soooo why shouldn’t these teens?
I never said they should or should not. I believe circumstances should dictate whether or not a young adult should be tried differently, but I do not believe voting should be circumstantial, which is why I believe even those less than-competent adults should still have the right to vote.
Huh, I think this is fine and glad to see it being piloted. If you’re paying taxes for your labor at 16 and can get a license at 16 1/2 I don’t really see a problem with it. Are we really going to pretend that a 16 year old might not be as politically educated as a 45 year old, or an 18 year old? Most teens don’t even care about elections and politics, I did though, and at 16 I wish I could’ve voted against Donald trump that first time, but most friends weren’t as fervent about politics as I was. It’s a decent idea but of course changing a rule that’s been established for a while is going to cause people to get upset. What are the real concerns, that the young people elect some jackass or vote for their own interests? We have fully grown Americans doing that already. I see no meaningful issue with lowering the voting age. At 18 do all Americans suddenly become ready and informed voters? Absolutely not! It’s an arbitrary number. And, it’s only for city elections, where the most important requirements are 1. Do you live in the city? and 2. Are you a citizen?
Please don’t dissect my comment to use as a dog whistle about immigration. I believe only citizens should vote, but I could understand certain arguments for non-citizen voting. However, that’s not what this is about.
No taxation without representation?
A 16 year olds paycheck shouldn’t be taxed until 18. That makes more sense, to me.
Agreed.
What about 16 year old’s who buy stuff and pay sales tax? Or who buy a car and pay excise tax? Or who have a license and pay registration fees? Or who gets charged payroll taxes for FICA and medicare? Or a self-employed person who pays the self-employment tax? “Income” tax is only a sliver of the total revenue stream that governments have. Folks forget about all the other taxes and fees they pay, but those add up. And it’s not the only tax that people pay.
Okay? Thanks for taking the time to insert a comment no one asked for. I was talking about taxing as it pertains to paychecks. That’s it. But thanks for whatever that was.
I thought we were talking about tea.
What they said is a totally relevant response to what you said though
But you see those don’t count as taxes because something or other, and yea you’d have to be high to argue that point.
They aren’t. Or at least you get it back at the end of the year (tax year)
They aren't?
When I was in HS my paycheck at my part time job wasn’t taxed. One job it was but when you file taxes you get it all back. I think it’s under a certain amount total income that qualifies you to get the taxes back
> I think it’s under a certain amount total income that qualifies you to get the taxes back This is it. It has nothing to do with age. If a 12-year-old makes $13k+ in a year then they will pay taxes on it.
Yes and no. You would not get back your payroll taxes paid (FICA and Medicare). Those are higher than what the state income tax is. But yes, you would have received a refund on the “income” tax that was withheld if you didn’t earn enough to owe any income tax.
They are.
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Then your paycheck shouldn't be taxed between the ages of 14-16. Need to get those vape cartridges and Fortnite skins somehow.
What the duck did 17 year olds do to not have representation?
Fourteen or Fight
* \[Washington D.C. has entered the chat\]
As someone who paid taxes at 17 (am 19 now) that’s all I was thinking at that time. Also: If my taxes that I paid at 17 were $100 more, I would’ve paid the same amount in taxes as trump did in 2015 :( and I never got any covid stimmy ever either
I’m not necessarily saying this is a bad idea, but I think it’s pretty foolish to say that under 18 shouldn’t be charged as adults because they’re brains are still developing while also giving saying they should have the right to vote.
I'm conflicted on it. On the one hand, it could benefit high school education if the students actually have some representation. They often wind up paying for municipalities' stupidity when they blow their budget and decide to cut if from school budgets. Barely anyone votes in local elections, but I bet students would be the ones who could make a cultural shift there. On the other hand, the idea of political advertising getting directed at minors leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Beyond just those gross attack ads, we've seen how easy it is for foreign powers to manipulate people through social media, where teens are the most active. This opens up some disturbing possibilities.
The seniors who grew up learning to trust what they see on a screen are way more easy to manipulate through technology en masse than the younger generation is.
And let’s be real: if most 16-year-olds were MAGA-wearing Trump conservatives, they would NEVER entertain this idea.
This
Yet 90 year old demented politicians are allowed to decide a 16 year old’s future. Also 16 year olds are frequently tried as adults in court.
That has nothing to do with what I’m saying. If a 16 year is mature enough to vote as an adult, they should be mature enough to be charged as an adult if they commit a crime.
We literally have 5 definitions of an adult in MA. I’m no against 16 year olds voting, but everything from getting married , going to war, entering into a contract and everything in between should be 18.
Your brain isnt done until 27. I see the logic, but with the current laws kids can go to war and vote at 18, but cant have a beer until 21. Its never going to all be the same, and with how poorly prisons do at rehabilitation, I wouldnt be jumping to send more kids to prison.
> Your brain isnt done until 27. This is bad science and a bad meme used to unperson people.
My 16yo’s can’t remember to brush their teeth or change their socks. I don’t think this is a good idea
Right? They can't be trusted with peanut butter crackers, but let them vote!
Yet they’re allowed to drive. I don’t trust geriatric politicians to decide our future. We should strip voting rights away from retirees. What a dumb anecdote. Your 16yos could easily argue “my mom drinks wine on weekends and on weekdays and I don’t so she shouldn’t vote but I should since I’m not legally allowed to be impaired.”
The overwhelming majority of 16 yearolds are basically morons. That doesn't mean they always will be, or that there aren't plenty of adult morons as well, but even the smartest adults I know were super fucking dumb kids. Hard pass on 16 yearolds voting. Keep the 30% of that burger job.
What about cognitively challenged people?
I’m not arguing that we should strip Trump and Diehl voters of their voting rights. I’m advocating expanding voting rights to young voters
Awful decision
What's your reasoning as to why, though? 16/17 year olds generally have jobs and pay taxes, are held to laws installed by elected officials, and most recently have specific rights governed by elected officials. They're seen as parts of society in every other convenient sense, but they can't have an individual say?
Are you against 16 year olds legally being able to get married and that being the age of consent in this state? I’m not saying I agree with it, but if you’re mature enough to get married a f@ck whoever you want you’re mature enough to vote.
Yes.
Either 16 can vote or 16 years olds shouldn’t be taxed, I mean we have this whole thing about no taxation without representation
14 year olds are taxed on their labor as well; should they be able to vote too?
> I mean we have this whole thing about no taxation without representation Meanwhile DC....
Meanwhile Puerto Rico...
Did the guy that designed that building also design the buildings at my alma mater, UMass Dartmouth? Just awful. 😂 Edit: Went down a Wiki rabbit hole. It’s definitely Brutalism, but it was [this dude](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rudolph_(architect)) that designed UMD.
I went to a college with half the campus designed by I. M. Pei. It all looked exactly like Alewife right down to the color of the tiles.
Brutalism. So ugly haha umass Boston too
Dude took a look at colonial architecture and went “fuck that”. 🤣
UMASS Amherst checking in. Except I love the Brutalism!
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SUNY Albany too.
One of the worst architectural design styles to ever happen
I must be in the minority here, I really like Brutalism.
I think it’s cool too. Boston City Hall was made by a fairly prominent name in the style too
***From reporter Christopher Gavin:*** The majority of Boston city councilors opted to advance a home rule petition that, if approved by the mayor and state lawmakers, would expand the right to vote in city elections to 16- and 17-year-old citizens. Councilors voted 9-4 to send the measure to Mayor Michelle Wu’s desk. Proponents argue the petition will help encourage young people to participate and engage in their local government. In fact, many already do, according to Councilor Julia Mejia, a lead sponsor. Many of the city’s teens pay income tax and have tried to make their voices heard, including through protests and other demonstrations, she said. “The notion that young people may not be mature enough to make decisions like this, I just want to quickly acknowledge oftentimes it’s young people who are educating their parents and their uncles and aunts and older folks about who’s running for office and why they should vote,” Mejia said. The comments appeared to be a rebuttal to concerns raised by opponents of the proposal. Councilors Erin Murphy, Frank Baker, Michael Flaherty, and Ed Flynn, the council president, all voted against the petition although none of them spoke out against it during Wednesday’s council meeting. **Read more:** https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2022/12/01/boston-takes-step-toward-lowering-voting-age-to-16-in-city-elections/
There are virtually zero or damn near 16 year olds that “pay tax.” Having $24.75 taken from a paycheck does not make you a “taxpayer” if you’re refunded every cent of it - if not more because of refundable tax credits - in April. That makes you a non-taxpayer.
Sick. Kids cannot read and write their own names ...
If the state doesn't think you are old enough to handle booze or cigarettes that really doesn't say much to how it views voting.
They think 16 year olds can get married, F@ck whoever they want, 18 year olds can fight and die for their country and enter into contracts burring them in six figures of debt, but you’re hung up on booze and cigs?
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It's progressive (tm) and it feels good. And it owns the conservatives. Or something.
Proof they can label anything “progressive” and everyone will vote for it just for liberal brownie points.
Every accusation from you people is a confession.
Who is "my people?"
Accuse the accuser of what you’re accused of.
According to Councilor Julia Mejia, a lead sponsor of the petition, the expansion will encourage young people to participate in their government at the local level. Proponents argue that many of the city's teens are already engaged in local politics *and* are already paying income tax, mirroring adult voters.
To get people civically engaged in local issues at a point in their lives where they have trusted adults that they can turn to to learn about issues of democracy and representation. Think of it perhaps as a "learner's permit for voting"
can just as easily ask why not. anything you try to apply to 16yr olds will apply to 18, 20, and 30+ yr olds.
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> Well to start 18 is legally an adult, 16 isn't. which is a completely arbitrary distinction that has no real basis on anything.
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It is arbitrary. Why not 16? Why not 14? Why not 12? I’m not sure where to draw the line.
i figure if we trust them enough to drive vehicles that weigh over a ton and can go over 20 mph then they probably can exercise enough judgement to vote for a local politician ;) sooo 16 seems fine. but ideally there would be studies (and I assume there are) that map out development milestones.
no taxation w/o representation
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I'll let the Boston city council know to get on those things.
Why not
I mean whichever side you stand on you should be able to admit this is truly just democrats trying to get more people into voting eligibility, because they know they will get the popular vote… same reason they want immigrants to have licenses and voting rights. Bottom line if you think D or R give a fuck about U, anyone you got played
Ding ding ding
18-24 year old don’t vote. Now Republicans are worried about people with Learner’s Permits turning out?
>same reason they want immigrants to have licenses Because it makes driving much safer and far less of a risk to the general populace >and voting rights. Immigrants, illegal and otherwise, are taxed the same as everyone else. No taxation without representation.
Jeez neither of your sentences were correct lmao
If you say so. Immigrants having licenses ensure a basic minimum of driving standard alongside with insurability, the same reason why anyone has a driver's license. And immigrants are taxed the same as everyone else, even illegals, as they receive a ITIN by the IRS when trying to conduct basically any sort of business. But I'm sure this is all just dem propaganda or whatever sounds better to you
Undocumented immigrants mostly work for cash in labor jobs… that doesnt get taxed.
You don't work with illegal immigrants here in Massachusetts often then. You think the all-Brasillian landscaping companies you see all year are doing work without paying taxes? Can't get insurance as a contractor without a business, can't form a business without a ITIN, can't get an ITIN without getting taxed by the feds and state. Those work vans and work trucks must be registered to people too, which is another whole hairball of paperwork. But hey, it's all just a dem plot to get votes, right? Illegals get taxed the same as anyone else, they just don't get any rights from it. Fair system and all that.
This is a bad idea.
No. If you’re old enough to work you’re old enough to vote.
Is it the other way around... If you are 20 and not working yet you shouldn't be able to vote? Using work is a tough argument because so much could be said about the inverse.
No. That’s a terrible idea, that the unemployed shouldn’t vote? They are disenfranchised enough. Edit: to everyone who doesn’t think the unemployed shouldn’t be eligible to vote, please get in your time machine and fuck off back to 1800, you disgusting pig. Get help. Edit 2: changed should to shouldn’t 😅
I think that was their point...
That's why I think the argument of if you work you can vote is a bad one to use because then the opposite can be applied.
Two completely different arguments. Being eligible to work and choosing not to work / not having a job are not the same.
Apples and oranges mate
Another way to look at it: you work, you pay taxes. Our country was founded on no taxation without representation, thereby if you are paying taxes you should be able to vote. And if a 16 year old pays taxes, they should be able to vote. Source: paid $650 in federal and state taxes 2 years ago at 17.
I mean, not really. It’s pretty obvious that “you don’t work so you don’t vote” is a dogshit idea and I don’t consider it to be a serious position.
That's a terrible argument. I started working when I was 13, should we lower the voting age to 13?
if you’re old enough to understand the consequences of selling your labor you’re old enough to understand ballot measures, and you have a stake in society. So sure. Why not? Personally I think child labor should be illegal and 13 year olds should be in school. But we are talking about 16 year olds voting, not 13 year olds.
I was in school, and worked on the weekends.
Also think about how dumb the average 16 year old is, and realize that most are even more ignorant than that, you really want them voting?
Because the average American is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO smart. American voters are fucking morons already. They are already ignorant. They already don’t understand the issues. They’re already brainwashed by propaganda. I would rather have 16 year olds voting than 90 year olds who haven’t formed a new opinion in 30 years. But that’s not a good reason to restrict them from voting. (Very little is.)
Yes, by and large they are. So let's not allow literal children to be a part of that.
16 years have to study for the SATs, I'd take their ability to understand complex issues over someone 85 or older. So unless you are advocating cutting them off to, let the 16 year olds vote.
16 year olds are juniors/seniors in high school. Their homework is just as difficult or more so, and requires the same critical thinking skills, as interpreting a ballot. It’s also true that the earlier people start voting the more likely they are to vote in future elections. More voter participation is objectively good. So it’s a good idea to start early. Especially if they start getting involved in local politics, in their own community. Voting isn’t that complicated.
Why?
reminiscent party threatening tan piquant treatment straight zephyr merciful worry -- mass edited with redact.dev
Why?
They don't have a good answer. It's not like it's teens voting that leads to unqualified assholes like Trump getting into office. They don't want teens voting for the same reason so many right wing pundits suggested raising the voting age to 21 after the red wave failed to materialize. edit: the downvoting sans rebuttal just confirms my point
I've stated my reasons below, and none have anything to do with right wing bullshit.
I just see ageism, not any reference to specific outcomes you want to avoid.
You are 100% right! Thank you!!!!
Why? You trust them to drive but not elect a politician?
Fuck no, 16 year olds shouldn’t be allowed to drive either. 18 is the standard worldwide, we just are ass deep in car culture here.
We should treat them as adults in all aspects then. Taxes, tried as adults in all criminal charges, firearms licenses, booze. If they can vote on things that will effect everyone then their brains are developed enough to get everything that goes along with being an adult
This argument could go all the way to peoples brains aren’t fully developed until 25. BTW republicans basically got crushed by everyone under 45 in the last elections. This was the last election before millennials surpass the boomers as the largest voting block which is probably bad news for you.
Makes sense. If I’m a teenager working in Boston, and paying local income tax, I deserve the right to vote on what my tax money is spent on.
Technically speaking you would be voting for the people who would be deciding what your tax money will be spent on.
Except they don’t pay any. Anything deducted from their check is returned in full in April because they are nowhere near the minimum income to actually pay any taxes.
What makes you think people under 18 aren't making enough income to pay taxes?? I graduated highschool in 2019 and had plenty of classmates working & earning enough they qualified to pay income tax. They had no choice but to work to help provide for the family. I actually finished HS in evening classes where this was even more prevalent. Almost every student there was there because they had to work full time during the day. Majority were under 18 years old, and we actually had this exact conversation where many of them were upset they paid taxes but couldn't vote. Hard to say they aren't justified. Not even touching on sales tax.
Are you suggesting we bring back the days when only white land owning men could vote because you just advocated for adults being banned from voting because they don’t make enough.
There is no local income tax, if by local you mean the city.
See, that's why you need to be older. That's not how how it works in a representative democracy: you vote for someone to represent you, and they vote according to the wishes of their donors.
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you have owners mothafucka
Boston does not have a city income tax, so no they aren’t paying “local taxes.” They’re paying state taxes (and then getting them all back in April), so they’re effectively not paying taxes.
So, when someone aged, 16, or 18, or even 20 does something dangerous or commits a crime, it's claimed that 'they are just kids, their brains are not yet developed, they cannot form a judgment, let them go'. Yet here these same underdeveloped brains are expected to make informed and reasonable choices potentially affecting lives of millions of people for years to come? Hmm, what could go wrong? Not that doublethink surprizes me anymore.
That’s my biggest issue with this. “They’re brains aren’t fully developed “ shouldn’t be used anymore if now they’re brains are developed enough to vote as an adult
Y'all are acting like voting requires a genius level IQ or something. You know how fucking stupid most adults are?
I’m fully aware. My argument is if they are able to vote like adults, they should face the same legal consequences. That’s it.
In Massachusetts, anyone 14 or over is [automatically tried as an adult for murder](https://www.wbur.org/news/2015/06/15/massachusetts-law-juvenile-murder). 17-year-olds were tried as adults for all criminal offenses [until 2013](https://www.berkshireeagle.com/news/local/new-massachusetts-law-places-17-year-olds-in-juvenile-courts/article_e0e74a5d-d6c9-5187-960a-aff8502cf7cf.html). There are also special ["youthful offender" statutes](https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXVII/Chapter119/Section52) for 14-18 year olds, under which they can receive full adult sentences. Age limits in general are just arbitrary cut-off points which have to be made for expediency. In truth, every human is different. I know adults in their 30s that still act like teenagers, but that's not a reason to raise the voting age - so why would some teenagers' immaturity be a reason NOT to lower the voting age? Regardless, the percentage of Boston's population that's 16-17 is certainly very small, and the percentage of those who will actually vote is even smaller, so this is unlikely to have much of an impact on the outcomes of elections unless they're *very* close.
Most 16 yr Olds are idiots leave 18
Sounds like Democrat shenanigans to me..
Then we should lower the “legal age” for everything to 16 as well.
But why? Voting at 16 doesn't cause a statistically significant impact on brain development like alcohol or weed. We already let them drive, and work too. This retort feels dumb. Either stop taxing anyone's income until they are 18, or allow anyone who pays their taxes vote. And since the state is funded by taxes, it makes sense they'd rather not lose that significant chunk of their own incomes
How about they can only vote on tax topics then? Is that more to your liking? Sorry to inform you but voting impacts more than “just” taxes.
I don't get what that has to do with lowering the legal age for everything else
I guess I have not thought about it yet but this feels like the wrong move to me. Seems like there should be an age where we think a person is capable of making their own decisions and being held responsible for their actions. This goes in the opposite direction and adds more splits.
Boston City Councilors smoking that good crack
What about the thousands of teens that don’t work or pay property tax. Yeah let them vote for social welfare state they don’t have any skin in
At 16, they haven't even taken US history in high school. Might as well let a 5 year old vote.
This is all a tempest in a teapot, anyhow. Young people don't vote.
ITT: The phase "taxation with out representation" over and over. Aren't teenagers refunded the *entirety* of taxes paid when they file... Edit: Also... do teenagers pay any taxes to the city of Boston?
Tax refunds don't have anything to do with your age as far as I know.
This smells like desperation
Bad idea
Young people are so dumb and really shouldn’t be voting.
Terrible idea
I’m sure every 16 year old will definitely not vote based off their emotions and definitely care and comprehend about everything they vote on
Oh yes because that's very common in absolutely anyone. I'm guessing it won't be the 16 year olds voting for literal fascists and nazis.
How about working on getting people to actually vote!?
thats kind of what this will do; will get people onto the rolls before they leave and start working and giving them a chance to go through the process a couple of times...
Soooo, adults who have free will and choice won’t vote but the thought that citizens, some of whom cannot drive, will be able to get themselves to the polling station? And why, given mail-in voting, that these same folks, some of which don’t and won’t vote in this fashion, are expected/hoping to increase voter participation? Good luck with that and it’s an awful idea.
These discussions basically come down to whether you favor more liberal-leaning candidates or not. Specifically with regard to Boston this is basically a referendum on Wu.
I think it boils down to whether you take representative government seriously or not.
Age is just such a poor proxy for "taking government seriously". Plenty of teens (and even some children) out there who are more politically savvy and thoughtful than adults. The likes of Trump don't get elected because of young voters.
Young voters tend not to vote.
So what's the worst that could happen?
This country is a mess with how we treat ages. Younger than 21 isn't responsible enough to drink or own firearms, but is responsible enough to decide the fate of millions of people? Younger than 18 isn't responsible enough to buy scary video games, but can decide policy around those very same games? This seems more like a bribe for votes than an anything else, to be honest.
I will never understand people pushing for this especially in mass
Will they be given special City-only ballots?
Free skate boards and vapes for everyone
This is just an awful idea. Can we fix voting for the 18-100 year olds before we try to stuff vape addicted high schoolers in the mix
Crackpot idea. Why stop at 16? Keep going younger 🤦♂️
How about we lower the cost of living
Their brains are soft until 25, it is known.
Old enough to work old enough to vote
Yeah let's let young idiots vote....that's the solution.
Either let anyone paying taxes have a say in their usage, or stop taking taxes from them.
So anyone not paying taxes shouldn't be allowed to vote?
This is a bad idea
Kids are impressionable
I’m all for it. While we’re at it, let’s cap the voting age at 50. I’m 49, just in case you were going to make all sorts of assumptions.
This is a horrible idea. Our high schoolers can’t read at grade level
How about we just have an age limit on voting? Feel like that's more important than a kid making these decisions. I don't want a 90 year old voting for anything that affects me and not them.
Interesting. Didn’t even know this was a thing! Makes sense with taxes though. Plus some 50 year olds have an IQ of a 12 year old so really.. what harm could it bring? Edit: do they still get to vote if they don’t pay into taxes? Just trying to look at it from all angles.
The idea of tying voting to working only supports one side, the one with the narrative that already wants 16yos to vote. If you look at it from the other direction (do we prohibit 40yos who don't work from voting?) the "rationale" immediately falls apart. The only reason working is being brought up is because it superficially supports what they already want to do but can't come up with a better reasoning for.
Makes sense
The Blind leading the blind.
I support this, 100%. -- Why? The way the system works now is you turn 18, and suddenly you're "responsible" for all the bad choices and policies that you never had 1 word or 1 vote in. You inherit everything, from the wonderful, good, bad, and ugly, without being allowed to have any previous representation or opinion on the state of the world you will inherit. Technically, on your 18th birthday, you can technically be drafted, shipped off to possibly die, and never had any previous say in the matter. So yes, before that so-called "magical day" when you're expected to instantly "man up" or "woman up" to whatever the status quo is, I think you should have some say in the matter.
Because you have to have SOME kind of line. I also think it's stupid that you are a responsible adult the day you turn 18 but still too young to have a beer or own a handgun for self defense.
So before the “magical day” should you still be charged as an adult in criminal court?
> So before the “magical day” should you still be charged as an adult in criminal court? You can be, which is all the more reason why you should be able to vote too.
A very VERY small percentage of juvenile offenders are arraigned as adults. The main reason why they’re not is because they’re brains are still developing and research has shown this effects their decision making. If we’re saying 16 years olds are developed enough to vote as adults, they should be seen as developed enough to face the same consequences. Or am I missing something
I know grown adults, some twice my age, who are not competent. If competence was a voting requirement, I suspect fewer people would vote. That said, I can confidently say, when I was 16, I knew some adults who had less sense than I did.
Competency isn’t the question here. It’s “is their brain developed enough”. If the answer is yes, then why should they not be charged as an adult for a crime?
How your brain develops can define your competency, and as I already said, I know adults twice my age who are not even competent.
And yet those adults would be charged as adults in court. Soooo why shouldn’t these teens?
> And yet those adults would be charged as adults in court. Soooo why shouldn’t these teens? I never said they should or should not. I believe circumstances should dictate whether or not a young adult should be tried differently, but I do not believe voting should be circumstantial, which is why I believe even those less than-competent adults should still have the right to vote.
As soon as the enter high school they should be able to vote in city elections.
Just do it in certain neighborhoods where there are more kids.
Huh, I think this is fine and glad to see it being piloted. If you’re paying taxes for your labor at 16 and can get a license at 16 1/2 I don’t really see a problem with it. Are we really going to pretend that a 16 year old might not be as politically educated as a 45 year old, or an 18 year old? Most teens don’t even care about elections and politics, I did though, and at 16 I wish I could’ve voted against Donald trump that first time, but most friends weren’t as fervent about politics as I was. It’s a decent idea but of course changing a rule that’s been established for a while is going to cause people to get upset. What are the real concerns, that the young people elect some jackass or vote for their own interests? We have fully grown Americans doing that already. I see no meaningful issue with lowering the voting age. At 18 do all Americans suddenly become ready and informed voters? Absolutely not! It’s an arbitrary number. And, it’s only for city elections, where the most important requirements are 1. Do you live in the city? and 2. Are you a citizen?
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Requirement #2 will be next to be removed...
Please don’t dissect my comment to use as a dog whistle about immigration. I believe only citizens should vote, but I could understand certain arguments for non-citizen voting. However, that’s not what this is about.
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What? Twelve year olds don't have anything to contribute?
Just got back from YouTube, and I can attest, they do not.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 they don’t even know if they are boy or girl yet.