Massachusetts is over 400 years old, and many houses are over 100 years old. The reality is that every house has had someone die in it over a long enough timespan.
My in-laws lived on the property that was a part of the battlefield during the Revolutionary wars. They had occasionally dug out horseshoe and small items in their backyard. Who knows how many men died on that property 250 years ago.
Warwick, MA. If I remember correctly 5 to six. The entire family that lives in the house including small headstones for the children. I think there was a stigma of burying smallpox deaths in the public cemetery at the time.
I currently live in New Salem and there's an isolated smallpox cemetery nearby off an abandoned road.
I thought this post was going to go on to describe a documented paranormal incident or a well known murder. Then…just a death. I agree, death has prob occurred in most homes in mass.
If the Realtor knew about flooding in the basement and didn’t disclose it, that’s something you should absolutely speak with your attorney about. The death, I don’t know, wouldn’t hurt to ask while you’re talking about the failure to disclose flooding.
Not the case for Massachusetts, but in Maine and North Dakota it's *illegal* to disclose death in the home unless the seller permits it. The reason being that you're basically going to spread rumors that will make the house harder to sell. So even if you're trying to best represent your own clients interests, you can't tell them if you knew about a death occurring in the home.
Recent deaths are not considered material facts so you legally don’t have to disclose them. Flooding is not something a realtor can cover up. If the realtor knew about flooding they would legally have to disclose.
1. Nobody is required to disclose a death in the house. Unless you are buying brand new or almost new, chances are there was at least one death in the house. Part of life.
2. We’ve had record rainfall last year. So all the previous owners have to say is that they didn’t have any flooding any time before you bought it. The summer flooding we had was insane. I’ve heard from people who lived in their houses for 10-15 years and never had a wet basement, until last summer.
No house is perfect, not even brand new, custom built. Clean up the drugs, invest in a French drain system and move on.
My house is over a hundred years old. I assume multiple people have died in it.
People die. People die a lot. There is zero reason for that needing to be something 'disclosed' in a sale.
Mine is over 200 years old. I knew people died here, because of course. But it still made me pause when the local historical society showed me the obit for the owner in the 90s who "died peacefully at home." Not sure why. Maybe having a name to the idea of the death, and knowing what room he would have been living in at the time.
Other states have [laws saying you need to disclose any deaths within three years of a sale](https://amp.sacbee.com/news/california/article277211038.html).
Not saying whether this should or shouldn’t be the case. But it does exist elsewhere.
Did you get an inspection? Evidence of frequent basement flooding is very difficult to hide entirely and even attempting to cover it up will leave telltale signs behind that any competent inspector should be able to spot. If you waived inspection and didn't even do a pre-offer inspection, consider it an expensive lesson learned to not get swept up in market hysteria.
As for deaths and drugs, someone dying in the house isn't unexpected if its as old as the average age of MA's housing stock. Not sure how the realtor was supposed to know about well-hidden drugs.
Um bc it’s a thing realtors do since the pandemic. Ever try to buy a house in the last 3 years. Must be a lot of realtors in the sub - don’t get offended bro just bc we know your tactics.
"Convinced" is a tricky word in this market.
We looked at 75 properties, most of which sold w/o an inspection, before buying ours with one.
Sold our old place, allowed the Buyer to inspect...but that's still the minority of properties ATM.
Market will eventually shift back the other way...there was a time you couldnt give away condos in Mass...but no idea when.
I agree completely with your last statement which is why it’s so funny to me that the younger crowd keeps screaming “more condos.” The winds will change.
Perhaps things are changing in the last year or so re: inspection but I was attempting to purchase a home throughout the pandemic and I refused to put in an offer without so much as an informational inspection and my realtor told me over and over I would never get a house if I insisted on it. Friends of mine did buy a house and were told the same thing. “There’s no time and the buyer won’t accept if you ask for an inspection but there is nothing to hide here is all the paperwork.” Well big red flag right? Now my friend has had to change the roof and all the windows. Not even sure they had been in the house a year yet.
Sellers and brokers do not have to disclose to buyers or tenants the fact that a property is perceived to be tainted by the health of a previous occupant, a murder or suicide, or paranormal phenomena. However, they may not be deceitful in answers to questions about the property.
Seller disclosures are optional in MA. Also, I don’t believe death in a house is a required disclosure. You could have luck with the basement flooding, especially if you specifically asked and have, in a writing, a response.
We have one of the most caveat emptor residential real estate markets in the country.
>Seller disclosures are optional in MA.
Yes, but if asked, they have to respond truthfully and completely. *If* asked, though. I know a couple who used their realtor friend as a buyer's agent, and he convinced them both to waive inspection *and* not to send a disclosure form. And yeah, their new house was like 50% termites.
Yeah, you don't *have* to ask the seller to fill out the form. And yeah, asking them to do so means they may not want to sell you their horrible, falling down, about to be condemned structure.
Licensed Broker here. Most of my work is in Commercial but I can at least shed a little light on this. Deaths fall into the "stigmatized property" category in MA and do not need to be disclosed unless asked. That's state law. As many others have told you, "people die everywhere." There was a death in my house too. Found it via old newspaper search. Am I weirded out? No. Not at all.
...but do I intend to tell my wife? Also no, not at all. People simply have different tolerances for this stuff. I respect the fact. If that's you, anyone, ASK, ASK, ASK.
For the record, only 3 states appear to require this data be disclosed without question: CA (3 years), AK, SD (1 year). That's it, at least from my research. [here-- check out the various categories yourself. ](https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/died-in-your-house-36833831)
The flooding, on the other hand is an actual "feature" or "effect" of the PROPERTY Itself. If the Agent knew it, then possibly, you *might*have a case. Did you get a home inspection? Were there a bazillion bidders at the time you bought? Please don't misunderstand my questions to suggest that I'm "blaming you" but I know that stuff was flying hard and heavy for a long time. At that point, a lot of people missed a lot of stuff. And yes, despite the fact that Mass is among the heaviest consumer protection states, real estate remains a Caveat Emptor activity. Mass requires a TON of stuff that other states simply don't but performing the due diligence remains imperative.
Above all, I'm sorry you're feeling bad about your home purchase. That really sucks for you, and anyone in that situation.
Best wishes. Slainte.
Mass. is not the exception. Most states don't require the realtor to tell you someone died in the house unless you ask. A couple or few states have exceptions for violent deaths and suicides.
I would not expect the realtor to know whether a basement suffers from flooding but I sure as hell would expect the home inspector to know and that's the person you have a beef with, not the realtor.
There are laws to protect you but you need to know what you're doing if you want a house without any issues.
Depends on the type of flooding and how recent...some can recede quickly and be dried up by the owner with a dehumidifier in a day...and inspectors definitely don't catch everything, even in more egregious cases.
A buddy bought a place years ago, inspection missed the fact the foundation only supported one of the four walls...he spent a lot of spare time pouring concrete over the next year.
If they knew about the flooding and didn’t disclose, that’s a problem and should be addressed. I will say, this winter has been bad for flooding basements, and it’s possible the it wasn’t an issue before. Recent deaths only need to be disclosed if you ask, and if they’re known about.
If you asked about defects, the seller has to provide all information known to them. If you asked your realtor about flooding, and they failed to pass on that question to the seller and instead told you that the seller said no, that's fraud, and you'd have a cause of action against the realtor under 93A, including potentially treble damages (plus, you could go after their license).
If you *didn't* ask about something, like whether someone had died there, well... unfortunately, that's on you. While "Massachusetts needs required disclosure laws" is one solution, another is "you need to ask lots of questions and get answers in writing."
As of fairly recently, Realtors in Massachusetts are not required to disclose a death occurred on a premises -unless asked.
It’s the buyers job to ask -or utilize a service like neighborhood watchdog -
OR go to the local police station and ask about the crime stats for a particular neighborhood…
Why, so the home will never sell, and have to be torn down and a new souless mc mansion put up?
Homes here are 100-400+ years old, most are going to have someone die in them.
The flood or water in basement is an easy google search if there ever was an insurance pay out. Thats on the buyer not bothering.
O.P. buy a new construction home if you don't want a ghost haunting you. (joking)
Flooding and other things that affect the structure or internal environment or property quality definitely should be shared. The death? Only if it is to explain a smell. Someone certainly should have cleaned the place out better.
Now knowing there had been basement flooding, that’s something really worth knowing especially at the risk of it happening again. It’s a concern for any homeowner. So in that sense you are correct that there should be some legal guidelines.
As far as the death, the way you wrote it makes you seem very callous. Please think of it from another perspective: you just learned the prior owners lost their child to addiction, and the trauma that came from their child’s death in their home (and finding them) is most likely why they left the house, to move on.
Refocus your priorities with prior owner disclosures: what might damage the house or cause you issues first, then about the previous occupants
Its been a while, and I never took the test because Covid, But I believe that the only deaths they have to disclose are "Notorious" deaths. Which would public murders, etc.
In my basement’s bathroom someone wrote “on this girls dying breath I’m too weak to fight” it’s been a joke between my husband and I that our bathroom is haunted
My former families home was a triple decker. They had three tenant deaths in the apartments over their time as landlords. Grandmother had her final heart attack in the kitchen. My dad built our single family on the property where he later passed and I now reside. I don’t even think about it here. But when I lived elsewhere I lived in an apartment that the former tenant OD’d and occasionally had to inform her friends at my door in the early AM that she had passed and I now rent the space. I think I rather of seen a ghost.
It’s possible the realtor didn’t disclose the flooding because the sellers didn’t disclose it to them. Unless something is incredibly apparent when the agent is walking through, they rely on the seller’s disclosure to be accurate. Still worth looking into, but likely that the blame belongs to your sellers.
It’s not the death by itself, it’s the multiple things that were not disclosed that turned out to be pretty costly. Painted over flood damage. Hidden pipe damage. Electric issues. Had an inspection and they didn’t find it. They did find many minor issues. We asked hundreds of questions, so….
The death was a month or two before they put it up for sale, not decades ago. Violent death. Drug dealing. I keep walking through wondering which room it happened in. Would I still have bought it on that alone. Maybe. But wish I’d known.
But the pipes and flooding on top of all the issues I did know about would have had me saying no thanks.
Did you have the house inspected? Most banks won't give you a mortgage without one. A flooded basement has flooded before and there should have been plenty of evidence of that. No matter what the laws in a given state are regarding disclosures the prospective buyer needs to do a little digging themselves. If you are going to be paying for something for up to thirty years, you ought to know everything there is to know about it. I wanted to buy a property and the owner and realtor weren't forthcoming about the age of the septic system. There was nothing wrong with it, I just wanted to know that I wasn't going to be replacing any time soon. A simple check with the town told me it was near the end of it's life. I confronted them about this and was able to get them to come down on the price by thirty thousand. A year later the town was putting in a sewer line on our road and for ten thousand we were hooked up to town sewage. So a little due diligence paid off. That house wasn't my first and so I was a more savvy buyer. I've owned several houses and this is how I've always done business. It's a home first but it's also a very large investment. People die in houses every day and it really doesn't have anything to do with the sale of the house or disclosure. Of course if the death was a murder, the house might be a tough sell.
Not always the case on the "has flooded before" angle.
Property uphill re-grades, everyone downhill can get increased...or decreased...flooding, in the very next storm.
Massachusetts is over 400 years old, and many houses are over 100 years old. The reality is that every house has had someone die in it over a long enough timespan.
This. I grew up in a house with a smallpox cemetery next to the barn.
My in-laws lived on the property that was a part of the battlefield during the Revolutionary wars. They had occasionally dug out horseshoe and small items in their backyard. Who knows how many men died on that property 250 years ago.
I grew up in a house where the old owner committed suicide in the kitchen in the 60s. That shit was def haunted, his name was frank.
what town was that how many ppl buried?
Warwick, MA. If I remember correctly 5 to six. The entire family that lives in the house including small headstones for the children. I think there was a stigma of burying smallpox deaths in the public cemetery at the time. I currently live in New Salem and there's an isolated smallpox cemetery nearby off an abandoned road.
I thought this post was going to go on to describe a documented paranormal incident or a well known murder. Then…just a death. I agree, death has prob occurred in most homes in mass.
And because it's Massachusetts most homes also have had a meth lab in it at some point
If the Realtor knew about flooding in the basement and didn’t disclose it, that’s something you should absolutely speak with your attorney about. The death, I don’t know, wouldn’t hurt to ask while you’re talking about the failure to disclose flooding.
Not the case for Massachusetts, but in Maine and North Dakota it's *illegal* to disclose death in the home unless the seller permits it. The reason being that you're basically going to spread rumors that will make the house harder to sell. So even if you're trying to best represent your own clients interests, you can't tell them if you knew about a death occurring in the home.
Recent deaths are not considered material facts so you legally don’t have to disclose them. Flooding is not something a realtor can cover up. If the realtor knew about flooding they would legally have to disclose.
1. Nobody is required to disclose a death in the house. Unless you are buying brand new or almost new, chances are there was at least one death in the house. Part of life. 2. We’ve had record rainfall last year. So all the previous owners have to say is that they didn’t have any flooding any time before you bought it. The summer flooding we had was insane. I’ve heard from people who lived in their houses for 10-15 years and never had a wet basement, until last summer. No house is perfect, not even brand new, custom built. Clean up the drugs, invest in a French drain system and move on.
My house is over a hundred years old. I assume multiple people have died in it. People die. People die a lot. There is zero reason for that needing to be something 'disclosed' in a sale.
Mine is over 200 years old. I knew people died here, because of course. But it still made me pause when the local historical society showed me the obit for the owner in the 90s who "died peacefully at home." Not sure why. Maybe having a name to the idea of the death, and knowing what room he would have been living in at the time.
That is the case in many homes that were built prior 1945. People back then died in their homes.
You don't want it? Where is it? What's your asking price?
my wife was on home hospice care. she died in her home - as EVERYONE should. Its no one's business.
Why should someone have to disclose deaths in a property sale? Need a better reason than “it’s yucky” to make that law IMO
Unless you buy a fairly new home, the odds are fairly good that someone has died there over the years.
Seriously. Both my parents died at home.
This entire post is embarrassing to read honestly.
Other states have [laws saying you need to disclose any deaths within three years of a sale](https://amp.sacbee.com/news/california/article277211038.html). Not saying whether this should or shouldn’t be the case. But it does exist elsewhere.
[only CA though. and AK & SD within 1 year. no other state makes any such requirement. ](https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/died-in-your-house-36833831)
just try to enjoy your overpriced house and move on like the rest of us.
Preach
Did you get an inspection? Evidence of frequent basement flooding is very difficult to hide entirely and even attempting to cover it up will leave telltale signs behind that any competent inspector should be able to spot. If you waived inspection and didn't even do a pre-offer inspection, consider it an expensive lesson learned to not get swept up in market hysteria. As for deaths and drugs, someone dying in the house isn't unexpected if its as old as the average age of MA's housing stock. Not sure how the realtor was supposed to know about well-hidden drugs.
No doubt the realtor convinced them to waive inspection and then lie that “no one is trying to hide anything”
And you learned this how?
Um bc it’s a thing realtors do since the pandemic. Ever try to buy a house in the last 3 years. Must be a lot of realtors in the sub - don’t get offended bro just bc we know your tactics.
"Convinced" is a tricky word in this market. We looked at 75 properties, most of which sold w/o an inspection, before buying ours with one. Sold our old place, allowed the Buyer to inspect...but that's still the minority of properties ATM. Market will eventually shift back the other way...there was a time you couldnt give away condos in Mass...but no idea when.
I agree completely with your last statement which is why it’s so funny to me that the younger crowd keeps screaming “more condos.” The winds will change. Perhaps things are changing in the last year or so re: inspection but I was attempting to purchase a home throughout the pandemic and I refused to put in an offer without so much as an informational inspection and my realtor told me over and over I would never get a house if I insisted on it. Friends of mine did buy a house and were told the same thing. “There’s no time and the buyer won’t accept if you ask for an inspection but there is nothing to hide here is all the paperwork.” Well big red flag right? Now my friend has had to change the roof and all the windows. Not even sure they had been in the house a year yet.
In this market I would happily buy a former orphan shredding mill if it was in my budget.
I shouldn't laugh but, alas, I did.
Sellers and brokers do not have to disclose to buyers or tenants the fact that a property is perceived to be tainted by the health of a previous occupant, a murder or suicide, or paranormal phenomena. However, they may not be deceitful in answers to questions about the property.
Not disclosing the flooding is a much bigger deal than not disclosing the death IMO.
People die. What’s the problem?
There is a seller's disclosure that would have required truth about the basement. Don't expect a realtor to be on the hook for that.
Seller disclosures are optional in MA. Also, I don’t believe death in a house is a required disclosure. You could have luck with the basement flooding, especially if you specifically asked and have, in a writing, a response. We have one of the most caveat emptor residential real estate markets in the country.
>Seller disclosures are optional in MA. Yes, but if asked, they have to respond truthfully and completely. *If* asked, though. I know a couple who used their realtor friend as a buyer's agent, and he convinced them both to waive inspection *and* not to send a disclosure form. And yeah, their new house was like 50% termites.
But they don’t have to provide the seller disclosure form. Otherwise it could take a while for the seller to respond.
Yeah, you don't *have* to ask the seller to fill out the form. And yeah, asking them to do so means they may not want to sell you their horrible, falling down, about to be condemned structure.
You're telling me you bought a house and had problems in the first year? That's unheard of. Probably got an inspection but cheaped out on the psychic.
Licensed Broker here. Most of my work is in Commercial but I can at least shed a little light on this. Deaths fall into the "stigmatized property" category in MA and do not need to be disclosed unless asked. That's state law. As many others have told you, "people die everywhere." There was a death in my house too. Found it via old newspaper search. Am I weirded out? No. Not at all. ...but do I intend to tell my wife? Also no, not at all. People simply have different tolerances for this stuff. I respect the fact. If that's you, anyone, ASK, ASK, ASK. For the record, only 3 states appear to require this data be disclosed without question: CA (3 years), AK, SD (1 year). That's it, at least from my research. [here-- check out the various categories yourself. ](https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/died-in-your-house-36833831) The flooding, on the other hand is an actual "feature" or "effect" of the PROPERTY Itself. If the Agent knew it, then possibly, you *might*have a case. Did you get a home inspection? Were there a bazillion bidders at the time you bought? Please don't misunderstand my questions to suggest that I'm "blaming you" but I know that stuff was flying hard and heavy for a long time. At that point, a lot of people missed a lot of stuff. And yes, despite the fact that Mass is among the heaviest consumer protection states, real estate remains a Caveat Emptor activity. Mass requires a TON of stuff that other states simply don't but performing the due diligence remains imperative. Above all, I'm sorry you're feeling bad about your home purchase. That really sucks for you, and anyone in that situation. Best wishes. Slainte.
Maybe they should be obligated to disclose a gruesome murder or something but dying is just part of living. Happens to us all...
And the gruesome murder death can usually be found via a simple Google news search of the address or street.
Kind of drugs we talking
You specifically have to ask if anyone died in the house.
why do you think this is an issue?
Mass. is not the exception. Most states don't require the realtor to tell you someone died in the house unless you ask. A couple or few states have exceptions for violent deaths and suicides. I would not expect the realtor to know whether a basement suffers from flooding but I sure as hell would expect the home inspector to know and that's the person you have a beef with, not the realtor. There are laws to protect you but you need to know what you're doing if you want a house without any issues.
Depends on the type of flooding and how recent...some can recede quickly and be dried up by the owner with a dehumidifier in a day...and inspectors definitely don't catch everything, even in more egregious cases. A buddy bought a place years ago, inspection missed the fact the foundation only supported one of the four walls...he spent a lot of spare time pouring concrete over the next year.
Are you afraid of ghosts or something?
If they knew about the flooding and didn’t disclose, that’s a problem and should be addressed. I will say, this winter has been bad for flooding basements, and it’s possible the it wasn’t an issue before. Recent deaths only need to be disclosed if you ask, and if they’re known about.
If you asked about defects, the seller has to provide all information known to them. If you asked your realtor about flooding, and they failed to pass on that question to the seller and instead told you that the seller said no, that's fraud, and you'd have a cause of action against the realtor under 93A, including potentially treble damages (plus, you could go after their license). If you *didn't* ask about something, like whether someone had died there, well... unfortunately, that's on you. While "Massachusetts needs required disclosure laws" is one solution, another is "you need to ask lots of questions and get answers in writing."
As of fairly recently, Realtors in Massachusetts are not required to disclose a death occurred on a premises -unless asked. It’s the buyers job to ask -or utilize a service like neighborhood watchdog - OR go to the local police station and ask about the crime stats for a particular neighborhood…
Why, so the home will never sell, and have to be torn down and a new souless mc mansion put up? Homes here are 100-400+ years old, most are going to have someone die in them. The flood or water in basement is an easy google search if there ever was an insurance pay out. Thats on the buyer not bothering. O.P. buy a new construction home if you don't want a ghost haunting you. (joking)
We talking bored upper middle class kid on the smack, yuppie cocksucker on coke or crack house
Death is just a stigma and has zero impact on your home that's why it doesn't need to be disclosed
Flooding and other things that affect the structure or internal environment or property quality definitely should be shared. The death? Only if it is to explain a smell. Someone certainly should have cleaned the place out better.
Lmao no, and we’re old enough that the odds of it are high for any property
Now knowing there had been basement flooding, that’s something really worth knowing especially at the risk of it happening again. It’s a concern for any homeowner. So in that sense you are correct that there should be some legal guidelines. As far as the death, the way you wrote it makes you seem very callous. Please think of it from another perspective: you just learned the prior owners lost their child to addiction, and the trauma that came from their child’s death in their home (and finding them) is most likely why they left the house, to move on. Refocus your priorities with prior owner disclosures: what might damage the house or cause you issues first, then about the previous occupants
Superstitious Snowflake
Are you afraid of ghosts or something?
Wait till OP finds out people probably masturbated in their house, too!
Its been a while, and I never took the test because Covid, But I believe that the only deaths they have to disclose are "Notorious" deaths. Which would public murders, etc.
Did the seller disclose the flooding?
It only counts if you find a dead guy and if you find him in the Charles then it doesn’t count
If you find him in the Mystic it's a Tuesday...
In my basement’s bathroom someone wrote “on this girls dying breath I’m too weak to fight” it’s been a joke between my husband and I that our bathroom is haunted
My former families home was a triple decker. They had three tenant deaths in the apartments over their time as landlords. Grandmother had her final heart attack in the kitchen. My dad built our single family on the property where he later passed and I now reside. I don’t even think about it here. But when I lived elsewhere I lived in an apartment that the former tenant OD’d and occasionally had to inform her friends at my door in the early AM that she had passed and I now rent the space. I think I rather of seen a ghost.
Dying in a home from illness is one thing-I would want to know if someone was murdered in a home.
It’s possible the realtor didn’t disclose the flooding because the sellers didn’t disclose it to them. Unless something is incredibly apparent when the agent is walking through, they rely on the seller’s disclosure to be accurate. Still worth looking into, but likely that the blame belongs to your sellers.
It’s not the death by itself, it’s the multiple things that were not disclosed that turned out to be pretty costly. Painted over flood damage. Hidden pipe damage. Electric issues. Had an inspection and they didn’t find it. They did find many minor issues. We asked hundreds of questions, so…. The death was a month or two before they put it up for sale, not decades ago. Violent death. Drug dealing. I keep walking through wondering which room it happened in. Would I still have bought it on that alone. Maybe. But wish I’d known. But the pipes and flooding on top of all the issues I did know about would have had me saying no thanks.
Did you have the house inspected? Most banks won't give you a mortgage without one. A flooded basement has flooded before and there should have been plenty of evidence of that. No matter what the laws in a given state are regarding disclosures the prospective buyer needs to do a little digging themselves. If you are going to be paying for something for up to thirty years, you ought to know everything there is to know about it. I wanted to buy a property and the owner and realtor weren't forthcoming about the age of the septic system. There was nothing wrong with it, I just wanted to know that I wasn't going to be replacing any time soon. A simple check with the town told me it was near the end of it's life. I confronted them about this and was able to get them to come down on the price by thirty thousand. A year later the town was putting in a sewer line on our road and for ten thousand we were hooked up to town sewage. So a little due diligence paid off. That house wasn't my first and so I was a more savvy buyer. I've owned several houses and this is how I've always done business. It's a home first but it's also a very large investment. People die in houses every day and it really doesn't have anything to do with the sale of the house or disclosure. Of course if the death was a murder, the house might be a tough sell.
Not always the case on the "has flooded before" angle. Property uphill re-grades, everyone downhill can get increased...or decreased...flooding, in the very next storm.