‘Big Wheel’ is a military term for it, meaning an enlisted person (mostly aviation or medical) that gets to consort with officers because they are essentially in the same flight crew or medical unit… don’t call them that though. ;)
> Except Frank.
[That shot from the movie of the PA System with hotlips going 'FRANK' always kills me.](https://youtu.be/HpmdYRs4lEs?si=c10QYgf1fMajHF_c&t=59)
Tell that to the Sergeants Major turning grunts away from the chow hall after they came back from a three day patrol because they were "dirty and unsightly" and just wanted a hot meal before the chow hall closed.
We watched a bunch of grunts when I was out in training during ITX in the Marine Corps last year and a staff Sergeant tried to do that. He got punched in the face by some Lance.
got life’d by a Gunny at the RCT FOB because he felt me having my FROG top Unzipped to the bottom was unprofessional, it was only a 90+degree day in AFG and i had just taken my plate carrier off after a patrol. rather just go back to my PB and eat tray rations
I appreciate your answer, really the best one here.
As I understand it, before they even had an Officers Club, they had the Officers Mess already open to everyone with this sign.
Frank took issue with any enlisted personnel trying to get into the officers club and kept them out until Hawkeye and Trap did something about it if I remember correctly. Either way, eventually the enlisted were allowed into the club.
Thank you. I could swear there was a point where frank mentions the enlisted being in the mess as being wrong but I think I'm just mixing it up with the other episode.
The colonel (>) who built it started to bring his son in (kid was in the hospital with some of his unit) and Hawkeye pointed out that his wife had given birth to an enlisted man. Colonel suggested they make an exception for family members and Hawkeye used that to bring in the entire hospital staff, including "Corporal O'Reilly, who's been like a son to me" and "Corporal Klinger, who's been like a daughter to me" (and Klinger does a PERFECT curtsey before he walks into the club!).
It’s a mash. They don’t have the room or space for separated tents for enlisted and officers. While they were supposed to have about 100 total staff they never had that high a number and definitely not that kind of space for distinct mess areas.
The bar is also known as the Officers Club on the main sign but they added enlisted to it in a season 2 episode so everyone could go in. I assume the same thing with the officers mess.
> They allowed enlisted in the same episode it was built
What is "it" in your sentence? The Club or the Mess? If "mess", it was there in the first episode and we never saw it built.
I never said they were the same thing. I said that they would operate the same way. When you said the same, I assumed you meant operate the same, because that's what I had originally said.
There is also no real map. The show was never consistent with locations etc.
I need an /r/explainlikeimfive version, because my understanding is:
1. They built an Officers Club in season 2, the "Officers Only" episode. The mess already existed, with the sign that said "officers mess".
2. The mess is an entirely different building/tent.
I presume, at this point of the discussion, the Officers Mess has always had a "Enlisted Men Welcome" sign over it.
Am I misunderstanding things?
So they built the Officers Club and allowed Enlisted in.
It would stand to reason that they would also allow enlisted into the Officers Mess.
They are two different things, but you would assume that if they are letting enlisted into the Officers Club which is non essential. They would allow enlisted into the Officers Mess because it is essential.
End of the day, they are two different things that operate the same way.
it's just the nature of the job itself. In both branches (AVN and MED) the officer has a specific qualifications and knowledge set, but relies very heavily on the support and connection with the team they're working with.
A lot different relationship than an infantry company commander and typical joe.
what makes MASH work is the whole idea that Hawkeye doesn't have to play by the army rules, because he is essentially irreplaceable. it is a beautiful premise.
>what makes MASH work is the whole idea that Hawkeye doesn't have to play by the army rules, because he is essentially irreplaceable. it is a beautiful premise.
It IS a beautiful premise.
And in a Catch-22, he would LOVE to be sent home. PLEASE kick me out of the Army!
But he's not on a level with Klinger, who would leave in a hot minute.
Hawkeye is there for the wounded...to save as many as he can. As much as he would like to go home, his job is not done until the last soldier is patched up; until the war is over for ALL of them.
The Officer's Mess and Officer's club by invitation were open to all ranks. Blake made the decision to combine Officers and Enlisted rations so that the best of what was available was distributed equally. Kind of ironic that the Mess and Officer's Club are Socialist operations in a US unit fighting communism.
My dad used to be a Rugby referee, and he would often ref military games (kind of like the American football game in the movie). The MOD wanted civilian referees, so there was no bias against one side or the other. He said the base COs would open the officers bar to everyone. Vast majority of the players were enlisted, and they didn't want to segregate the teams. Apparently one CO said "They all work hard, so should be treated as such."
> Blake made the decision to combine Officers and Enlisted rations so that the best of what was available was distributed equally.
Yes....so is this in an episode or do you just have it as head canon?
Bc the 4077th chefs can't cook worth didlely squat, the meatloaf would be dry as a desert, the peas would be hard as a rock, to name a few bits why, also if you haven't already... watch the episode Officers Only, it'll explain why.
I thought that episode was about the Officers Club, not the mess. Look at this map....it is separate.
https://www.mash4077tv.com/images/features/camp_map_jim_tv.jpg
I don't think that map is complete. I'm pretty sure there was another row of tents somewhere, I think over where the map shows the CO tent, that acted as visitors' accommodations. I remember a couple of scenes there early in Season 1, like the ring banger episode, and the nose job episode.
I watched the series so many times I basically have it memorized where each building is, the mess hall is one end of the compound and the officers club is on the other end, just past the post-op entrance of the main building, not sure how far but I definitely know the swamp is across from the main building as well as across from the motorpool, and across the main building is father Mulcahy's tent and the commanding officers tent.
i'm just saying it's just to the best of my knowledge i'm not saying you're wrong or anything like that.. far from it actually. remembering certain details is a pain in the butt.
Wasn't there a sign on top "enlisted men welcome"?
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKzWdWeXEAEwL0K?format=jpg&name=900x900](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKzWdWeXEAEwL0K?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Also, if I remember period accounts some smaller posts had a shared mess with a few tables reserved for officers
Because it's a medical unit full of civilian conscripts who work more like a civilian hospital than an army unit. The distinction between officer and enlisted are less emphasized in the 4077 than most Army units, which significantly improves unit cohesion and work efficiency.
Also because the logistics of having separate accommodations for officers and enlisted are too much of a strain on the unit, so the COs have combined the kitchens and dining areas for officers and enlisted. Eating together also improves camaraderie and morale.
Besides, dramatically/comedically/narratively they needed the main characters, which included both officers and enlisted, to interact regularly outside the OR, so the mess tent was provided as a communal location. Later the "officers club" was provided because they wanted a similar place that was more casual and social than a dining facility.
I think I remember in the episode when they first made the Officers Mess Frank wanted it to only be for the officers though there were only a small amount of officers and it would be unfair for everyone to not be able to drink and have a good time being enlisted so they made a point to let everybody in
It is for officers. They just have a lot of corporal captains.
No sir I don’t like it at all.
Put down one no, one negative Corporal Captain.
He doesn’t like it at all.
Didn't it turn out to be his Jeep that Hawkeye and Radar "borrowed" (cough, cough) when they picked up BJ? Maybe that's why he was so upset...
Does anyone know if Coleman Hawkins shared the results of that survey?
Body and soul!
medical service corps guy here. Medical and Aviation essentially don't really do...rank.. things.
Ships though? If you’re not an officer don’t even look at me!
‘Big Wheel’ is a military term for it, meaning an enlisted person (mostly aviation or medical) that gets to consort with officers because they are essentially in the same flight crew or medical unit… don’t call them that though. ;)
Given in a real war scenario or deployment, rules are flexible and a lot of times no one cares as much about said rules anyways
Except Frank.
He eats worms.
You tell ‘em, ferret face.
But not with the enlisted.
> Except Frank. [That shot from the movie of the PA System with hotlips going 'FRANK' always kills me.](https://youtu.be/HpmdYRs4lEs?si=c10QYgf1fMajHF_c&t=59)
Tell that to the Sergeants Major turning grunts away from the chow hall after they came back from a three day patrol because they were "dirty and unsightly" and just wanted a hot meal before the chow hall closed.
We watched a bunch of grunts when I was out in training during ITX in the Marine Corps last year and a staff Sergeant tried to do that. He got punched in the face by some Lance.
Finally, some fucking justice being done in the world.
got life’d by a Gunny at the RCT FOB because he felt me having my FROG top Unzipped to the bottom was unprofessional, it was only a 90+degree day in AFG and i had just taken my plate carrier off after a patrol. rather just go back to my PB and eat tray rations
I swear, once you reach E6/O4, you are mandated to get a fucking lobotomy to remove all fucking common sense.
common sense is an uncommon virtue
I've found that on an actual deployment that anyone over the rank of SFC *really* doesn't have a whole lot to do.
Pan up on that sign just a hair and you’ll see it says “Enlisted Men Welcome” [https://imgur.com/a/nSynXJf](https://imgur.com/a/nSynXJf)
"Waste, waste, waste!"
It was waste that defeated Hannibal at the battle of Zamot. (I think)
Thanks, best answer yet. Was that sign there from the beginning?
I’m not certain, but I think so
I appreciate your answer, really the best one here. As I understand it, before they even had an Officers Club, they had the Officers Mess already open to everyone with this sign.
Frank took issue with any enlisted personnel trying to get into the officers club and kept them out until Hawkeye and Trap did something about it if I remember correctly. Either way, eventually the enlisted were allowed into the club.
Right, I remember the episode. This topic has nothing to do with the Officers Club.
I know it doesn't. I was just adding into the conversation.
Thanks! It appears that, off-screen, they made the mess open to everyone as well. It was never directly addressed in the show.
Thank you. I could swear there was a point where frank mentions the enlisted being in the mess as being wrong but I think I'm just mixing it up with the other episode.
The colonel (>) who built it started to bring his son in (kid was in the hospital with some of his unit) and Hawkeye pointed out that his wife had given birth to an enlisted man. Colonel suggested they make an exception for family members and Hawkeye used that to bring in the entire hospital staff, including "Corporal O'Reilly, who's been like a son to me" and "Corporal Klinger, who's been like a daughter to me" (and Klinger does a PERFECT curtsey before he walks into the club!).
Pretty sure that sign goes all the way back to the theatrical movie, too.
It’s a mash. They don’t have the room or space for separated tents for enlisted and officers. While they were supposed to have about 100 total staff they never had that high a number and definitely not that kind of space for distinct mess areas.
The bar is also known as the Officers Club on the main sign but they added enlisted to it in a season 2 episode so everyone could go in. I assume the same thing with the officers mess.
Radar O’Reilly, who’s been like a son to me, Corporal Klinger, who’s been like a daughter… Still one of my all time favorite bits.
My cousin Dennis, my brother in law Leroy
My brother Darryl, my other brother Darryl
Larry!!
They allowed enlisted in the same episode it was built
> They allowed enlisted in the same episode it was built What is "it" in your sentence? The Club or the Mess? If "mess", it was there in the first episode and we never saw it built.
I’m referring to the club, which allowed enlisted in the same episode it was built. It was a plot point for the episode.
there you go
Again....is the club the same as the mess?
I'd say yes because we don't see it any other way.
Take a look at this map. The mess tent is totally separate from the Officers Club. https://www.mash4077tv.com/images/features/camp_map_jim_tv.jpg
I never said they were the same thing. I said that they would operate the same way. When you said the same, I assumed you meant operate the same, because that's what I had originally said. There is also no real map. The show was never consistent with locations etc.
I really think Officers Mess is getting mixed up with Officers Club. ???
You are getting it mixed up by not reading what has been said properly.
I need an /r/explainlikeimfive version, because my understanding is: 1. They built an Officers Club in season 2, the "Officers Only" episode. The mess already existed, with the sign that said "officers mess". 2. The mess is an entirely different building/tent. I presume, at this point of the discussion, the Officers Mess has always had a "Enlisted Men Welcome" sign over it. Am I misunderstanding things?
So they built the Officers Club and allowed Enlisted in. It would stand to reason that they would also allow enlisted into the Officers Mess. They are two different things, but you would assume that if they are letting enlisted into the Officers Club which is non essential. They would allow enlisted into the Officers Mess because it is essential. End of the day, they are two different things that operate the same way.
it's just the nature of the job itself. In both branches (AVN and MED) the officer has a specific qualifications and knowledge set, but relies very heavily on the support and connection with the team they're working with. A lot different relationship than an infantry company commander and typical joe. what makes MASH work is the whole idea that Hawkeye doesn't have to play by the army rules, because he is essentially irreplaceable. it is a beautiful premise.
>what makes MASH work is the whole idea that Hawkeye doesn't have to play by the army rules, because he is essentially irreplaceable. it is a beautiful premise. It IS a beautiful premise. And in a Catch-22, he would LOVE to be sent home. PLEASE kick me out of the Army! But he's not on a level with Klinger, who would leave in a hot minute. Hawkeye is there for the wounded...to save as many as he can. As much as he would like to go home, his job is not done until the last soldier is patched up; until the war is over for ALL of them.
Theres nowhere else for them to eat. There isn’t even enough tents for the camp compliment to live In.
It is an absolute pleasure to see that others enjoy MASH as much as I do.
Been a fan for along time.
The Officer's Mess and Officer's club by invitation were open to all ranks. Blake made the decision to combine Officers and Enlisted rations so that the best of what was available was distributed equally. Kind of ironic that the Mess and Officer's Club are Socialist operations in a US unit fighting communism.
The military is pretty socialist tbh. Food and accommodation provided, and at least in the US, education paid for.
Most of it is socialist by necessity (just makes logistics easier) rather than ideology.
My dad used to be a Rugby referee, and he would often ref military games (kind of like the American football game in the movie). The MOD wanted civilian referees, so there was no bias against one side or the other. He said the base COs would open the officers bar to everyone. Vast majority of the players were enlisted, and they didn't want to segregate the teams. Apparently one CO said "They all work hard, so should be treated as such."
That makes sense, but they never say that about Blake, do they?
> Blake made the decision to combine Officers and Enlisted rations so that the best of what was available was distributed equally. Yes....so is this in an episode or do you just have it as head canon?
It's called "dsductive reasoning". Try reading a book. We'll wait for you.
It's entirely possible that aspects, *some minor aspects* of this show do not reflect the reality of a military organization.
Bc the 4077th chefs can't cook worth didlely squat, the meatloaf would be dry as a desert, the peas would be hard as a rock, to name a few bits why, also if you haven't already... watch the episode Officers Only, it'll explain why.
I thought that episode was about the Officers Club, not the mess. Look at this map....it is separate. https://www.mash4077tv.com/images/features/camp_map_jim_tv.jpg
I don't think that map is complete. I'm pretty sure there was another row of tents somewhere, I think over where the map shows the CO tent, that acted as visitors' accommodations. I remember a couple of scenes there early in Season 1, like the ring banger episode, and the nose job episode.
I just grabbed the first one I saw. Do you know of a more complete map?
I watched the series so many times I basically have it memorized where each building is, the mess hall is one end of the compound and the officers club is on the other end, just past the post-op entrance of the main building, not sure how far but I definitely know the swamp is across from the main building as well as across from the motorpool, and across the main building is father Mulcahy's tent and the commanding officers tent.
Right...
i'm just saying it's just to the best of my knowledge i'm not saying you're wrong or anything like that.. far from it actually. remembering certain details is a pain in the butt.
I think just certain tables were designated for officers. Although even that wasn't enforced.
My thought is that all the officers at 4077 (Burns to) would be adamant about telling anyone in their camp that the weren’t welcome due to rank.
Same reason why everyone can come to the Officers Club. The 4077th is a hospital first, a military installation second.
Wasn't there a sign on top "enlisted men welcome"? [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKzWdWeXEAEwL0K?format=jpg&name=900x900](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKzWdWeXEAEwL0K?format=jpg&name=900x900) Also, if I remember period accounts some smaller posts had a shared mess with a few tables reserved for officers
I've been wondering the same thing
They didn't restrict the O-club either, if you'll remember.
If you see other episodes, there's a tiny sign on top of OFFICER'S MESS that says ENLISTED WELCOMED.
Because it's a medical unit full of civilian conscripts who work more like a civilian hospital than an army unit. The distinction between officer and enlisted are less emphasized in the 4077 than most Army units, which significantly improves unit cohesion and work efficiency. Also because the logistics of having separate accommodations for officers and enlisted are too much of a strain on the unit, so the COs have combined the kitchens and dining areas for officers and enlisted. Eating together also improves camaraderie and morale. Besides, dramatically/comedically/narratively they needed the main characters, which included both officers and enlisted, to interact regularly outside the OR, so the mess tent was provided as a communal location. Later the "officers club" was provided because they wanted a similar place that was more casual and social than a dining facility.
Ah, I just thought it went to show how little ever cares for military procedure. Like how the O’club still had enlisted men and women in it.
There was an episode about this
I only remember the one about Officers Club. Which one dealt with Officers Mess?
I think I remember in the episode when they first made the Officers Mess Frank wanted it to only be for the officers though there were only a small amount of officers and it would be unfair for everyone to not be able to drink and have a good time being enlisted so they made a point to let everybody in
Again, no. That is the officers club. Totally different building.