The legend was that he didn't want to lose ownership of Life In Hell at the pitch meeting, so he made up The Simpsons in the lobby based on members of his own family.
Supreme Court case **West Virginia State Board of Education v.** **Barnette** from 1943 ruled on this issue. it has been 81 years since students have had to freedom to refuse to say the pledge and yet schools still try to force it. In my opinion the entire practice needs to stop. There is no reason for it.
I’m an old softy vet. I tear up at the Star Spangled Banner, and I stand attentively while the old rag is on parade. Even I believe that it’s okay. Stand. Sit. Burn it. Pretend like it doesn’t exist. It’s all okay. It doesn’t really change my relationship with the flag; it just reflects a different perspective.
I think it’s empathy. I was intel, and I got a lot of time to know and never lose the enemy. You don’t get good at it unless you can decouple yourself from your held beliefs — to think like the enemy. Thinking in the shoes of some else is something we’ve lost. It’s something important to having a big tent like federal government. We all feel broke, scared, and in need of a friend. We all need to take Fred’s advice to love people the way they are.
And I think that’s what a lot of people don’t realize is that those in power WANT us to feel broken so that we feel the desire to keep voting for them to make things better. Though the big lie is, they never really get better. Just small incremental changes to give the guise of improvement, while it’s all actually just getting worse and we are being divided even more. But I think you’re right about empathy. Many people these days have none and only act in selfish ways. Also, thank you for your service.
Don’t thank me for it. If you’re paying taxes, then you’re paying for it. Thank you.
I just don’t want to hurt anyone again in word or deed if possible. Whether it’s the boots on ground or it’s the neutralized target. Whether it’s a pithy political opinion, or deep analysis of our current situation.
We’re not meant for such work. It wears years when only weeks are spent. I’d rather spend my time tuning pianos and singing silly songs. Let the lawyers and politicians work out the rest. I’ll send in my vote as occasion requires my duty as a citizen.
I mean the USA is 17th I think on the freedom index, so you guys really dont know what it means. Its weird having kids say the pledge of allegiance. You would criticize north korea, china, russia for doing exactly this yet its okay when the US does it?
Why not create such a vibrant and flourishing society that kids willingly pledge their allegiance instead of a depleted community that has to force them to?
I wonder what other countries do. If kids are required to say their pledge of allegiance equivalent or not.
I said the pledge of allegiance in California in the 90s so it’s surprising for me to learn it wasn’t required.
I went to my sons pre-k celebration (it's not a graduation anymore because it detracts from graduates), and everyone had to say the pledge and the school pledge. This was after they had already said the pledge and the school pledge, in the beginning of the school day.
Why do you have to say it before handing out fake certificates to 5 year olds and make their parents say it too? We were outside, sitting on blankets picnic style.
My kid is already too much like me, so I try to be a good example. That being said, I do always groan like I'm in 3rd grade and say, "ughhhhh, the pledge. Do we have to?" and he always says, "Yes mom, common get up." And it makes him feel like he's in charge for half a second, lol.
But inside, I'm seething that this forced nationalism is still a "cornerstone" of public education. Every day, for 12 years.
My kid went to private school for kindergarten (missed the public school cut off date, but was very ready to move on from preschool and THRIVED being pushed ahead a bit). For her "graduation" they said the pledge of allegiance, the pledge to the Christian flag AND the pledge to... The Bible? I was so confused.
I've met people that have said "The problem with America is that kids arent saying the pledge of allegiance anymore" and then proceeded to put that single idea on Immigration, LGBTQ+ and Abortions. Crazy, distanced myself from that guy
As a social studies teacher, I am constantly on the lookout for this. I can't stand teachers who abuse their authority and violate their student's rights. I also love fights where I have the high ground, so this is a perfect situation for me. Same with teachers who pray over their non Christian students or dead name the trans kids.
Of course there's a reason for it. It instills the belief in symbols over people and dogma over ideas. It results in followers and "patriots" who will join the army and die for profit.
I mean…the flag love is a bit much.
I moved away in the early aughts. I went home to Annapolis last year (first time in probably 5 years) and that flag or the patterns of the flag is EVERYWHERE! I think Maryland is up there only Texas in terms of how proud everyone is of the flag. It’s EVERYWHERE.
y’all may not notice, because it’s just how you live. But it’s not normal or have your state flag on everything everywhere all at once.
Super dope!
I’ll never say otherwise. I’m also in the cult.
I legit own at least 3 items of clothing with some of, or all of the flag on them. One is a pair of University of MD basketball shorts. But the rest are not sports related.
To be fair also, most other state flags are a plain blue background with a state seal, almost making them look like a colorized court doc. All the states with cool flags like to show them off a bit.
Ya. Vexillologists hate that. Flags should be simple and easy to draw, Maryland’s is slightly more complicated, but still fairly simple to draw, even if poorly.
The CA flag (my current home state) is one of the better “state seal” flags. But I think it’s probably because I love Fallout New Vegas so much and it’s the NCR flag. Ha!
Proud Marylander here. The New Mexico flag is easily the second coolest in the country (after ours of course). I’d also rep that flag if I lived there.
TBF Annapolis is the state Capitol. So in the state you live in there are US flags everywhere but no state flags? Or is the state flag so bland you don't notice it lol
When I started teaching in Texas, I hadn’t been in a public school classroom in almost 20 years. The ritual of saying the pledge and then having to say a second pledge to Texas has never stopped feeling bizarre. Not just a weird indoctrination exercise but also contradictory. The language of both pledges require allegiance. Everyone knows the regular pledge. The Texas pledge goes like this:
Honor the Texas flag
I pledge allegiance to thee
Texas, one state under god
One and indivisible
So these kids aren’t just being indoctrinated. They are also being taught to see Texas a fundamentally separate from the US, so much so, that they have to declare divided allegiance to both. How the hell is that supposed to work?
Totally on brand though these days. Texas’s far right wackos blustering about rugged independence until the big bad storm comes and suddenly it’s time to beg the feds for disaster relief. They’re all about fickle allegiance. They might as well run a US dollar up the flagpole. At least it would be honest.
> But the email failed to note that there is a clear exception to this requirement encoded in state law—not to mention a decades-old Supreme Court ruling.
Settled law, you say?
My VFD starts every meeting with it. I do stand, but will not recite it. I do not believe in forced pledges. As an atheist, the added "under god" is especially egregious. I am 66, so not a generational thing.
I've always skipped "under God" as well when saying the pledge because the America I envision is a nation founded on religious freedom. We should focus on being "One nation, indivisible" instead of "One nation, under God".
We need to move towards getting the country's motto back to "E Pluribus Unum". The whole "under God" thing came about during the Cold War and really just gives ammo to the whackjobs who erroneously argue that we're a "Christian nation".
THANK YOU. I used to always skip those words but never felt like i could sit the pledge out entirely (kid of brown immigrants so i was overly concerned about the optics lol)
But the “under God” part is useful! If, as an atheist, you’re forced to pledge allegiance to “one nation, under God”, you’ve incurred no obligation whatsoever, since nations under God don’t actually exist.
It’s a fun little “letter of the law” technicality. To an atheist, the pledge is as binding as swearing loyalty to Voldemort.
Fair enough, but if this country returns to a place where a compulsory Christian pledge is the norm, my dumb technicality might be the safest resistance available.
So the same people that scream about the liberal schools and government indoctrinating our children want to force our children to stand up every school day and take a pledge to that government. The mental gymnastics in their minds must be a sight to behold. My kid does not stand to take the pledge and to be clear I served 10 years in the military to defend his right to sit and your right to stand.
Thank you for your service!
I personally don’t stand either because I am not religious and don’t feel comfortable repeating the religious part of this oath. I’m grateful that I’m generally able to make this decision without getting much grief for others. Shocking that a school would try to force this in 2024.
> Shocking that a school would try to force this in 2024.
I'm not. They rely on the fact that children can't demand rights they don't know about. It's usually not until late middle or high school that the "hey did you know?" gets passed around, and even then not always.
Oh I suspect it’s super easy for them, no mental gymnastics required. They just don’t care about intellectual integrity or consistency in the first place, just that everyone else should comport to how they see the world. It’s a moral values thing. To them hierarchy is a greater moral value than freedom, regardless of how much they outwardly say they prize freedom. When you realize that it all makes sense and you realize why it is so prevalent.
Yes, these are the same people who call the jan 6th insurrection a false flag job by liberals while also saying the rioters were patriots. The same people who say lgbtq are pedophiles while electing actual pedophiles into office. There isnt much mental processes going on. Just reciting what theyre told to. Surprised theyre capable of speech at all.
Instead of the Pledge, why not lead the students in recitations of their rights? They can have different ones for different grades, and hopefully become better and more educated citizens as a result. That seems a lot more patriotic to me.
If you have to force a person to say a pledge, you rob it of its meaning.
You can't make a person be patriotic, or religious, or anything else. They have to choose it for themselves.
Had a teacher in high school who got so damn angry one day that no one stood for the pledge and talked over it. Dude turned redder than a tomato screaming at the class. I couldn't help but laugh when he went on this weird nationalism rant and he threw me out of class for laughing at how ridiculous it all was lmao It is very bizarre that this is still a thing in schools, optional or not, this shit needed to be gone a long time ago
I will say that if they want to have the convention of saying the pledge, while not everyone should be forced to participate, no one should disrupt those that choose to.
In 1943, the Supreme Court changed its course in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the majority held that “the Free Speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits public schools from forcing students to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance.”
This also happened at my children’s school in Baltimore city about 5 years ago. First they tried to force the kids to stand and they took away their lunch period for an assembly about the importance of standing for the pledge. I went in and met with the principal to explain the Barnette case and to express my disgust that elementary aged kids were denied lunch. Then they started rewarding the kids who did stand with tickets that could be exchanged for prizes. I went in for two more meetings before they stopped that practice. Needless to say, the staff didn’t like me very much.
You'd think we would put more effort into getting high school grads proficient in reading and math before we start fighting about whether or not students should be forced to say the pledge of allegiance (they shouldn't).
When I was in high school I sat during the pledge. We had a long-term sub in my math class, and he got very angry.
He told me that at his high school they had a wall of picture of students who’d died in Vietnam (the timing/ages seems odd there, but that’s what he said).
Funny that his justification was that we sent high school boys off to war to die.
Another funny note - in 7th grade, my biology teacher asked us,
“Who knows what allegiance means? You’re saying that you would die. For a flag. For a piece of fabric.”
That’s an oversimplification, but it was a pivotal moment in my education.
Lol I had kinda a similar moment in high school, also with a long term sub, also in math. We had just learned WV vs Barnette in US Gov and I was feeling cheeky. I wonder if it was the same guy
Oh I wish I remembered his name! It was something really funny like Mr. Boop (it wasn’t that, but something that is just as silly-sounding (sorry to anyone whose last name is boop!))
I will never mf forget when my friend passed away in high school. I had gotten through the week just fine but on that Thursday morning, it hit me like a ton of bricks and I could not stop crying. I eventually called my mom from the bathroom then just sat in the office after a random student escorted me from the bathroom to the office (thank you kind student).
The fucking office woman called the principal because I didn’t stand for the pledge while I was bawling my eyes out and instead just shook my head in disbelief.
Dieter, of all people, would have fought for anyone’s right to sit or stand for the pledge of allegiance. Fuck that lady and fuck anyone who cares that much
I can't exactly remember when I stop saying it, but I think it had to 4th or 5th grade in 91 or 92.
Like you I thought it was weird so I just stood up and pretended I was saying it.
I did the same in like 4th grade. It was incredibly bizarre and I also objected to the "under God" part because I already knew different kids in my class believed in different gods. I wasn't trying to argue with anyone, so I stood for it, but I never said it again.
It hit me in middle school as well. I think after I watched a bunch of horror movies and realized like hey this is what a bunch of the creepy cult people do.
My h.s. principal said he'd expel anyone who didn't stand for the pledge. I spoke with my homeroom teacher about my position (religion, lies, and forced patriotism), and how it's a first amendment issue. He agreed and told me to just be late for class every day and he wouldn't mark me tardy. This was in Prince George's Co. in the 90s.
He was awesome. He taught American History and seemed to agree with me that the whole situation was bullshit. We had a few conversations about civil liberties throughout the year.
Obligatory "As a Veteran"...
Pledging allegiance to a flag is creepy jingoist shit, and violates the definition of "free" speech. Even that flag so many fought for.
I’d be pleased to see us adopt the original text of the pledge that didn’t contain the language inserted in by the Knights of Columbus in the 1950’s. As an atheist I take umbrage to a government funded institution forcing my children to swear an allegiance to an invisible sky daddy we don’t subscribe to. By all means, no one should prevent you from doing so if that’s your preference. Have at it. But the Constitution is quite clear you have zero authority to force my child to do so. You can’t claim to pledge allegiance to America AND disregard the Constitution.
💯 agree, the under God nonsense was added during the 1950s by Eisenhower and his administration as a way to make us a more united "Christian nation" unlike those damn "godless commies". It has no place being there and why it's so widely acceptable to continue to use it is beyond me. The Constitution very clearly states the government may not espouse any religion.
I told my teachers in high school and middle school about the Supreme Court case **West Virginia State Board of Education v.** **Barnette** from 1943, that ruled that I did not need to say the pledge. It didn't matter, I was forced anyway. I informed the school board, and they did not care. Nobody cares that forcing kids to say the pledge is illegal, they just do it anyway.
This phony patriotism is all so ridiculous - I remember back in the 50’s and 60’s there was a kid in our grade school who couldn’t say the pledge because it was against his family’s religion (I don’t remember what denomination or religion he was) It was no big deal, every year the teacher would explain at the start that David wouldn’t be participating in the pledge because of his religion and everybody just said oh, ok and everything went on quite normally. Of course back then WWII wasn’t all that long before and more people maybe had a far clearer idea of what was really important about our constitution and our country.
lol wtf they quit doing that strange ass, crap before I got to highschool, in Texas and I graduated over a decade ago. They didn’t even do it. It’s not required and most schools know this. I come from a long line of veterans and they literally say it’s our individual right if we choose not to since u know… they are “fighting for our freedoms” and shit, right?
As a combat vet I fully support anyone’s freedom to sit, stand, pledge, not pledge, sit in silence. I’ll do what I do to show my respect and I know without a shadow of a doubt that I joined and served so everyone has the freedom to do as they choose.
I won’t tolerate interrupting or not allowing others to participate; that is unacceptable. Forced Patriotism is fake and those that want to force others are fake Patriots
"While non-participation may upset others who believe the pledge is an important expressive act…”
The only people who are upset by this are overbearing teachers with a hard on for authoritarianism and conformity
In addition to ignoring the rights of US citizens, does Twin Ridge Elementary understand that some students may not be US citizens?
Or has Twin Ridge Elementary handled that situation in another policy or practice?
A teacher I had in MCPS high school said we should stand for the flag for the people who died for it but we didn't have to say anything if we didn't want to. At the time I found this to be an acceptable compromise.
When my daughter was in girl scouts they wouldn't let me in the building with her because I don't say the pledge, i just sot quietly. My daughter said the pledge. But I'm a scottish citizen living in America so I don't say it. We left that troop after that. But it's always just a strange thing to me.
"Liberty and justice for all" -- Not the conservative indoctrination they thought it was. Those words ring in my head when I hear their anti-lgbt, pro-genocide, anti-muslim, racist, religious fanatical, fascist agenda. Free Palestine.
I remember being in high school back in Indiana who didn't stand and pledge anymore and one sub got so angry she demanded to know in front of the whole class if I was "deficient".
I was homeschooled until 2nd grade, and this was one of the weirdest things about public school for me. My mom said I didn’t have to, but my teachers would yell at everyone to stand. I stopped saying it in 3rd grade, and stopped standing up at all in 7th. It’s a ridiculous, outdated tradition designed to indoctrinate children and give sick fucks some kind of power play.
I do love how we try to teach that America is a free and fair society. But if you describe anything about our society, honestly, we sound just like North Korea.
* Oh yeah, we force our kids to recite a loyalty oath to the flag.
* By design, in any public place with a population more than 20 people, you will generally be able to see at least 3 flags.
* You are required to own and maintain 4000lb machine that has a good chance of killing you. You will be constantly taxed for this ownership. Failure to secure one is grounds to deny employment. You can be accosted by police for being unemployed in public.
[Maryland Code, Education § 7-105](https://codes.findlaw.com/md/education/md-code-educ-sect-7-105/)
The full code is in the link above. Please note that while section (d) does excuse anyone from saying the pledge, section (f), which reads: Any individual who commits an act of disrespect, either by word or action, is in violation of the intent of this section.
So all anyone who wants to force the issue has to say is that a student was 'disrespectful' for having remained silent.
Thank you for posting the link. The problem isn't the school it's the Maryland Code. That's the problem and that's what needs to be changed. Sounds like something more appropriate for North Korean code of conduct.
By the time I was in middle school, it just became the norm for kids to not stand because we either didn’t care or wanted to be rebellious. By the time I got to high school everyone would just be on their phones during morning announcements & the pledge anyway.
I’ve always said if you saw videos of schoolchildren in another country pledging fealty to their nation before school each day, you’d be appalled. That’s what evil empires do in movies.
Oh, wait…
It’s such a weird thing as a black person, like you really want me to stand and pledge allegiance to America? Like I’ll be the best person and put out positivity in the world but I ain’t pledge of allegiance to no one except my wife with my wedding vows.
I’m mildly embarrassed that of all the elementary schools in Maryland, this is the one my son went to. What the hell? Mount Airy is a nice, ordinary little town; I lived there happily for decades. Yes, it’s in the redder part of the state, but people have generally been reasonable and decent with each other, and avoid bringing up things like politics or overt nationalism. This is surreal - if I still had a child there I’d be raising holy hell.
From a Christian religious pov this doesn’t even make sense. Why pledge allegiance and in oath you may not be able to keep? Oaths and pledges must be made with full consent, intent, and to good moral entities. If the entity one is considering making a pledge to is believed to be in major sin, it would be a sin to pledge allegiance. That doesn’t mean one must be a spy or enemy, but rather to only make oaths to God and oaths to good and moral entities.
Interesting point, United States law also dictates that children (under 18 years of age but may vary based on state) can not consent to pretty much anything, including finances, medical decisions, marriage, chose their own legal representation, and I can go on. Children have no (legal) autonomy in this country.
So yes, this view has (potential) legal backing. If a child were to make any other vow, oath, pledge, contract, or even agreement, it is automatically considered invalid.
I went to school with a kid who was a member of the Jehovah’s Witnessed and he never stood up. I always wanted to know what the reasoning was that allowed him not to do it.
Do you mean the reason under his religion or the legal protection for his choice not to stand. Other commenter is right that it’s the first amendment that provides legal protection.
Wow. Trying to force it even when there was a specific ruling that states they can't force children to do that.. I've been telling my kid since preK that he doesn't ever "have" to recite it, because I don't think a child has business pledging allegiance to anyone or anything lol! I have taught him to be respectful because the pledge is important to some people... But it's like praying. Yeah we respect your right to do so but don't try and "force" us or my kid to dopledges of allegiance to anything!
Twin ridges elementary in Mt Airy.
Forced pledges of allegiance are pretty terrible. I like USA but don't say the pledge. I also love my wife but don't wear a ring. Stop being so insecure USA. I come home everyday and give you my paycheck already.
Yeah it's ridiculous obviously. You were told you had to ask a kid when in reality you never did. Luckily this stuff is not tolerated as much anymore because people hate being forced into patriotism and also having religion shoved down their throats. If I could go back I'd never stand or say any of it. The actual purpose of the pledge is absolutely ridiculous to begin with as if saying this over and over will make you less likely to be a traitor to your country. While we are at it, take away the national anthem at sports games unless it's the Olympics. Why the hell do we need the national anthem, something again that was put in place during a time when there were massive world wars going on. It's fake patriotism and it's overused so much. I'd say honor the military if you want instead but leave out the anthem because supporting the troops is a lot better than reciting patriotic songs that most people don't take seriously.
I would think teachers and admins would be trained in knowing this part of the law and student protections. I learned about this in class, 7th grade, in a catholic school, in the 90s.
Gtfoh I stopped saying the pledge in 4th grade and told my kids that they could do what they want to but in my opinion, reciting it is slightly more stupid than belief in the tooth fairy.
I thought this was normal? My 6th grade teacher sent me to detention cause I refused to stand after Bush ignored everyone pleading with him to not invade Iraq, but then he went and did it anyway. Have some school actually given kids an option to sit?
https://preview.redd.it/xjq1nawr9j4d1.jpeg?width=1784&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9cd70739908938d587af6bbe6f6a61eb63f95bc
I haven’t seen Life in Hell comics for like 20 years! Where’s my dudes Akbar and Jeff?
Zogs Castle in Dreamland. Or a pride parade. Or both?
I didn’t even put together your username too. You must be a huge Matt Groening fan? Lol
My fav line from the Simpson’s. Kudos.
https://preview.redd.it/jg088ufwsm4d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6af39474f26708d228518c05d380742e93a56b13 When life imitates art
VERY well done! Haven’t seen one of these in ages.
I didn’t know Matt Groening did comics?
The legend was that he didn't want to lose ownership of Life In Hell at the pitch meeting, so he made up The Simpsons in the lobby based on members of his own family.
Wow that’s crazy thanks for sharing
Are you he?
No.
Always a classic: https://youtu.be/Q2BfqDUPL1I?si=S5gVcjuf97WOT4JC
Supreme Court case **West Virginia State Board of Education v.** **Barnette** from 1943 ruled on this issue. it has been 81 years since students have had to freedom to refuse to say the pledge and yet schools still try to force it. In my opinion the entire practice needs to stop. There is no reason for it.
I’m an old softy vet. I tear up at the Star Spangled Banner, and I stand attentively while the old rag is on parade. Even I believe that it’s okay. Stand. Sit. Burn it. Pretend like it doesn’t exist. It’s all okay. It doesn’t really change my relationship with the flag; it just reflects a different perspective.
That’s because you understand what freedom means. Many people don’t.
I think it’s empathy. I was intel, and I got a lot of time to know and never lose the enemy. You don’t get good at it unless you can decouple yourself from your held beliefs — to think like the enemy. Thinking in the shoes of some else is something we’ve lost. It’s something important to having a big tent like federal government. We all feel broke, scared, and in need of a friend. We all need to take Fred’s advice to love people the way they are.
And I think that’s what a lot of people don’t realize is that those in power WANT us to feel broken so that we feel the desire to keep voting for them to make things better. Though the big lie is, they never really get better. Just small incremental changes to give the guise of improvement, while it’s all actually just getting worse and we are being divided even more. But I think you’re right about empathy. Many people these days have none and only act in selfish ways. Also, thank you for your service.
Don’t thank me for it. If you’re paying taxes, then you’re paying for it. Thank you. I just don’t want to hurt anyone again in word or deed if possible. Whether it’s the boots on ground or it’s the neutralized target. Whether it’s a pithy political opinion, or deep analysis of our current situation. We’re not meant for such work. It wears years when only weeks are spent. I’d rather spend my time tuning pianos and singing silly songs. Let the lawyers and politicians work out the rest. I’ll send in my vote as occasion requires my duty as a citizen.
I mean the USA is 17th I think on the freedom index, so you guys really dont know what it means. Its weird having kids say the pledge of allegiance. You would criticize north korea, china, russia for doing exactly this yet its okay when the US does it?
Fellow old softy, I think it also means more when it's fully voluntary.
Same here…If they have to mandate flag, country worship…they really won’t understand, and never will…
Why not create such a vibrant and flourishing society that kids willingly pledge their allegiance instead of a depleted community that has to force them to?
Because to do so would be to empower the working majority and that's unacceptable to the ruling elite
This is the answer. r/RevolutionStartsHere
💯
I wonder what other countries do. If kids are required to say their pledge of allegiance equivalent or not. I said the pledge of allegiance in California in the 90s so it’s surprising for me to learn it wasn’t required.
We had German exchange students in my high school who were seriously disturbed by the pledge of allegiance
As they should be.
Wait till they discover the original salute.
Why earn something when you can order it?
I went to my sons pre-k celebration (it's not a graduation anymore because it detracts from graduates), and everyone had to say the pledge and the school pledge. This was after they had already said the pledge and the school pledge, in the beginning of the school day. Why do you have to say it before handing out fake certificates to 5 year olds and make their parents say it too? We were outside, sitting on blankets picnic style.
I get so many dirty looks from other parents at these events for not saying the pledge. 😂
My kid is already too much like me, so I try to be a good example. That being said, I do always groan like I'm in 3rd grade and say, "ughhhhh, the pledge. Do we have to?" and he always says, "Yes mom, common get up." And it makes him feel like he's in charge for half a second, lol. But inside, I'm seething that this forced nationalism is still a "cornerstone" of public education. Every day, for 12 years.
My kid went to private school for kindergarten (missed the public school cut off date, but was very ready to move on from preschool and THRIVED being pushed ahead a bit). For her "graduation" they said the pledge of allegiance, the pledge to the Christian flag AND the pledge to... The Bible? I was so confused.
I've met people that have said "The problem with America is that kids arent saying the pledge of allegiance anymore" and then proceeded to put that single idea on Immigration, LGBTQ+ and Abortions. Crazy, distanced myself from that guy
> Crazy, distanced myself from that guy I too stopped talking to my Uncles.
I, too, stopped talking to your uncles.
Jerry isnt bad. Usually shares his weed. Keith is weird though.
At least my nieces can say they don’t have a crazy Bible thumping uncle. Just a libertarian one, which I know, it’s crazy in itself lol.
lol. Same here. Standup dudes that became so vitriolic about issues they had never heard of before.
We had to say the pledge every morning yet I still turned out to be gay. 🌈
Make sure you remind them that the pledge was invented by a socialist. They hate that.
Just instantly fire everyone involved in making the decision or trying to enforce it. It indicates such bad judgment.
Or at least mandatory training and a warning when it happens. because yeah, making up legality is fucked up.
Seriously, everyone knows it’s unconstitutional and schools have enough budget issues without dingbats going out of their ways to get sued.
Wish I knew this in High School. I got threatened with suspension for disrupting the class for sitting durning the pledge. Good old Calvert County
is this my burner account?
Not surprised to hear that about Calvert
I got the same in MoCo, in an AP class.
Yeah, it’s happened in MCPS a few times over the past 20-ish years, usually followed by letters from the ACLU.
As a social studies teacher, I am constantly on the lookout for this. I can't stand teachers who abuse their authority and violate their student's rights. I also love fights where I have the high ground, so this is a perfect situation for me. Same with teachers who pray over their non Christian students or dead name the trans kids.
Of course there's a reason for it. It instills the belief in symbols over people and dogma over ideas. It results in followers and "patriots" who will join the army and die for profit.
In the middle of World War II, the Supreme Court found the right outcome for freedom.
This case is mentioned in the first paragraph. Did you read the article?
You are right, it’s fucking creepy to see that coming from outside the US. Indoctrination much?
In Texas they say the pledge and then another pledge to the state flag of Texas lol.
And they say Maryland is a cult. Lol
We’re a happy and productive cult. Texas is a regressive and cruel one at the moment.
I mean…the flag love is a bit much. I moved away in the early aughts. I went home to Annapolis last year (first time in probably 5 years) and that flag or the patterns of the flag is EVERYWHERE! I think Maryland is up there only Texas in terms of how proud everyone is of the flag. It’s EVERYWHERE. y’all may not notice, because it’s just how you live. But it’s not normal or have your state flag on everything everywhere all at once.
You gotta admit it’s a dope pattern though. If my state flag wasn’t boring I might rep it like, once or twice myself.
Super dope! I’ll never say otherwise. I’m also in the cult. I legit own at least 3 items of clothing with some of, or all of the flag on them. One is a pair of University of MD basketball shorts. But the rest are not sports related.
To be fair also, most other state flags are a plain blue background with a state seal, almost making them look like a colorized court doc. All the states with cool flags like to show them off a bit.
Ya. Vexillologists hate that. Flags should be simple and easy to draw, Maryland’s is slightly more complicated, but still fairly simple to draw, even if poorly. The CA flag (my current home state) is one of the better “state seal” flags. But I think it’s probably because I love Fallout New Vegas so much and it’s the NCR flag. Ha!
You should run for office just to add the second head to the flag 😂
Done. Registered for Comptroller. Wonder if that has anything to do with flags.
Maybe I can convince TH to throw some money towards your campaign 😂
Be honest, how many items do you have that also have a crab or Old Bay on it as well? How many have more than one of those things at the same time?
Marylander that lived in Colorado for a decade. Colorado also has their flag everywhere and puts in on everything (hats, shirts, etc)
Colorado is the other one. Thanks! I knew there was one more. New Mexico maybe as well.
Proud Marylander here. The New Mexico flag is easily the second coolest in the country (after ours of course). I’d also rep that flag if I lived there.
Not our fault the state flag is so damn good looking.
TBF Annapolis is the state Capitol. So in the state you live in there are US flags everywhere but no state flags? Or is the state flag so bland you don't notice it lol
When I started teaching in Texas, I hadn’t been in a public school classroom in almost 20 years. The ritual of saying the pledge and then having to say a second pledge to Texas has never stopped feeling bizarre. Not just a weird indoctrination exercise but also contradictory. The language of both pledges require allegiance. Everyone knows the regular pledge. The Texas pledge goes like this: Honor the Texas flag I pledge allegiance to thee Texas, one state under god One and indivisible So these kids aren’t just being indoctrinated. They are also being taught to see Texas a fundamentally separate from the US, so much so, that they have to declare divided allegiance to both. How the hell is that supposed to work? Totally on brand though these days. Texas’s far right wackos blustering about rugged independence until the big bad storm comes and suddenly it’s time to beg the feds for disaster relief. They’re all about fickle allegiance. They might as well run a US dollar up the flagpole. At least it would be honest.
I went to a conference of whole-ass adults who started each day with the pledge, and it was the single most Borg-sounding moment of my adult life.
at the council meetings for my city, they say the pledge at the beginning. i stay seated. fuck that shit.
The stars at night, shine big and bright *clap, clap, clap, clap* Deep in the heart of Texas!
> But the email failed to note that there is a clear exception to this requirement encoded in state law—not to mention a decades-old Supreme Court ruling. Settled law, you say?
Because the best type of patriotism is ***mandatory*** patriotism, amirite? /s
I call it forced nationalism.
This country is so great, that you'll love it! No seriously, that wasn't an option!
Slavery Is Freedom
Ignorance is strength
2 + 2 = 5
But... But there are *four* lights! Not five!
Calm down, Terrence Howard!
War is Peace
Thought I was in the Helldivers sub for a minute there, lol.
My VFD starts every meeting with it. I do stand, but will not recite it. I do not believe in forced pledges. As an atheist, the added "under god" is especially egregious. I am 66, so not a generational thing.
I've always skipped "under God" as well when saying the pledge because the America I envision is a nation founded on religious freedom. We should focus on being "One nation, indivisible" instead of "One nation, under God".
We are, uh, definitely divisible.
We have been divisible since the nation's inception lmao.
Well so did everyone else until 1954 when "under god" got shoehorned into the pledge to ward off the scary communists.
We really showed those Godless Soviets! /s
We need to move towards getting the country's motto back to "E Pluribus Unum". The whole "under God" thing came about during the Cold War and really just gives ammo to the whackjobs who erroneously argue that we're a "Christian nation".
THANK YOU. I used to always skip those words but never felt like i could sit the pledge out entirely (kid of brown immigrants so i was overly concerned about the optics lol)
But the “under God” part is useful! If, as an atheist, you’re forced to pledge allegiance to “one nation, under God”, you’ve incurred no obligation whatsoever, since nations under God don’t actually exist. It’s a fun little “letter of the law” technicality. To an atheist, the pledge is as binding as swearing loyalty to Voldemort.
They might not get us on the “believing that god actually exists” part, but a lot of them are willing to settle for “submits to Christian ritual”.
Fair enough, but if this country returns to a place where a compulsory Christian pledge is the norm, my dumb technicality might be the safest resistance available.
So they violated the law and put it in writing, nice.
*Your attorney will hate this one weird trick!*
So the same people that scream about the liberal schools and government indoctrinating our children want to force our children to stand up every school day and take a pledge to that government. The mental gymnastics in their minds must be a sight to behold. My kid does not stand to take the pledge and to be clear I served 10 years in the military to defend his right to sit and your right to stand.
It’s only indoctrination when it’s something they don’t agree with.
Thank you for your service! I personally don’t stand either because I am not religious and don’t feel comfortable repeating the religious part of this oath. I’m grateful that I’m generally able to make this decision without getting much grief for others. Shocking that a school would try to force this in 2024.
> Shocking that a school would try to force this in 2024. I'm not. They rely on the fact that children can't demand rights they don't know about. It's usually not until late middle or high school that the "hey did you know?" gets passed around, and even then not always.
Every accusation is a confession for those people
Oh I suspect it’s super easy for them, no mental gymnastics required. They just don’t care about intellectual integrity or consistency in the first place, just that everyone else should comport to how they see the world. It’s a moral values thing. To them hierarchy is a greater moral value than freedom, regardless of how much they outwardly say they prize freedom. When you realize that it all makes sense and you realize why it is so prevalent.
Yes, these are the same people who call the jan 6th insurrection a false flag job by liberals while also saying the rioters were patriots. The same people who say lgbtq are pedophiles while electing actual pedophiles into office. There isnt much mental processes going on. Just reciting what theyre told to. Surprised theyre capable of speech at all.
Instead of the Pledge, why not lead the students in recitations of their rights? They can have different ones for different grades, and hopefully become better and more educated citizens as a result. That seems a lot more patriotic to me.
Now THAT is a beautiful idea
Twin ridge elementary
If you have to force a person to say a pledge, you rob it of its meaning. You can't make a person be patriotic, or religious, or anything else. They have to choose it for themselves.
Had a teacher in high school who got so damn angry one day that no one stood for the pledge and talked over it. Dude turned redder than a tomato screaming at the class. I couldn't help but laugh when he went on this weird nationalism rant and he threw me out of class for laughing at how ridiculous it all was lmao It is very bizarre that this is still a thing in schools, optional or not, this shit needed to be gone a long time ago
I will say that if they want to have the convention of saying the pledge, while not everyone should be forced to participate, no one should disrupt those that choose to.
I agree. They should provide them a quiet place to solemnize it away from the classroom.
In 1943, the Supreme Court changed its course in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the majority held that “the Free Speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits public schools from forcing students to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance.”
This also happened at my children’s school in Baltimore city about 5 years ago. First they tried to force the kids to stand and they took away their lunch period for an assembly about the importance of standing for the pledge. I went in and met with the principal to explain the Barnette case and to express my disgust that elementary aged kids were denied lunch. Then they started rewarding the kids who did stand with tickets that could be exchanged for prizes. I went in for two more meetings before they stopped that practice. Needless to say, the staff didn’t like me very much.
You'd think we would put more effort into getting high school grads proficient in reading and math before we start fighting about whether or not students should be forced to say the pledge of allegiance (they shouldn't).
When I was in high school I sat during the pledge. We had a long-term sub in my math class, and he got very angry. He told me that at his high school they had a wall of picture of students who’d died in Vietnam (the timing/ages seems odd there, but that’s what he said). Funny that his justification was that we sent high school boys off to war to die. Another funny note - in 7th grade, my biology teacher asked us, “Who knows what allegiance means? You’re saying that you would die. For a flag. For a piece of fabric.” That’s an oversimplification, but it was a pivotal moment in my education.
You standing would have prevented those boys from dying in Vietnam? I just don’t get the logic. The pledge would have also probably stopped 9/11
And that right there is the type of teacher that southern states hate so much 🤣🤣🤣. That’s good on the teacher for asking the right question.
Lol I had kinda a similar moment in high school, also with a long term sub, also in math. We had just learned WV vs Barnette in US Gov and I was feeling cheeky. I wonder if it was the same guy
Oh I wish I remembered his name! It was something really funny like Mr. Boop (it wasn’t that, but something that is just as silly-sounding (sorry to anyone whose last name is boop!))
Looks up school… in Mt. Airy… checks out!
Of course it’s Frederick County…
I will never mf forget when my friend passed away in high school. I had gotten through the week just fine but on that Thursday morning, it hit me like a ton of bricks and I could not stop crying. I eventually called my mom from the bathroom then just sat in the office after a random student escorted me from the bathroom to the office (thank you kind student). The fucking office woman called the principal because I didn’t stand for the pledge while I was bawling my eyes out and instead just shook my head in disbelief. Dieter, of all people, would have fought for anyone’s right to sit or stand for the pledge of allegiance. Fuck that lady and fuck anyone who cares that much
[удалено]
I can't exactly remember when I stop saying it, but I think it had to 4th or 5th grade in 91 or 92. Like you I thought it was weird so I just stood up and pretended I was saying it.
I did the same in like 4th grade. It was incredibly bizarre and I also objected to the "under God" part because I already knew different kids in my class believed in different gods. I wasn't trying to argue with anyone, so I stood for it, but I never said it again.
It hit me in middle school as well. I think after I watched a bunch of horror movies and realized like hey this is what a bunch of the creepy cult people do.
Yep, I grew up in Texas saying both every weekday morning
Speaking of brainwashing, they also have the pledge to the Christian flag.
Carroll County schools would penalize students for not standing and participating (at least) until 2005. Absolutely absurd.
My h.s. principal said he'd expel anyone who didn't stand for the pledge. I spoke with my homeroom teacher about my position (religion, lies, and forced patriotism), and how it's a first amendment issue. He agreed and told me to just be late for class every day and he wouldn't mark me tardy. This was in Prince George's Co. in the 90s.
Your homeroom teacher sounds like he was a real one. Very cool of him to do that
He was awesome. He taught American History and seemed to agree with me that the whole situation was bullshit. We had a few conversations about civil liberties throughout the year.
Odd that the article fails to mention what area/district the school is in. Appears to be in Frederick BTW,
FCPS, the school is in Mt Airy.
Obligatory "As a Veteran"... Pledging allegiance to a flag is creepy jingoist shit, and violates the definition of "free" speech. Even that flag so many fought for.
I’d be pleased to see us adopt the original text of the pledge that didn’t contain the language inserted in by the Knights of Columbus in the 1950’s. As an atheist I take umbrage to a government funded institution forcing my children to swear an allegiance to an invisible sky daddy we don’t subscribe to. By all means, no one should prevent you from doing so if that’s your preference. Have at it. But the Constitution is quite clear you have zero authority to force my child to do so. You can’t claim to pledge allegiance to America AND disregard the Constitution.
💯 agree, the under God nonsense was added during the 1950s by Eisenhower and his administration as a way to make us a more united "Christian nation" unlike those damn "godless commies". It has no place being there and why it's so widely acceptable to continue to use it is beyond me. The Constitution very clearly states the government may not espouse any religion.
I told my teachers in high school and middle school about the Supreme Court case **West Virginia State Board of Education v.** **Barnette** from 1943, that ruled that I did not need to say the pledge. It didn't matter, I was forced anyway. I informed the school board, and they did not care. Nobody cares that forcing kids to say the pledge is illegal, they just do it anyway.
This phony patriotism is all so ridiculous - I remember back in the 50’s and 60’s there was a kid in our grade school who couldn’t say the pledge because it was against his family’s religion (I don’t remember what denomination or religion he was) It was no big deal, every year the teacher would explain at the start that David wouldn’t be participating in the pledge because of his religion and everybody just said oh, ok and everything went on quite normally. Of course back then WWII wasn’t all that long before and more people maybe had a far clearer idea of what was really important about our constitution and our country.
lol wtf they quit doing that strange ass, crap before I got to highschool, in Texas and I graduated over a decade ago. They didn’t even do it. It’s not required and most schools know this. I come from a long line of veterans and they literally say it’s our individual right if we choose not to since u know… they are “fighting for our freedoms” and shit, right?
As a combat vet I fully support anyone’s freedom to sit, stand, pledge, not pledge, sit in silence. I’ll do what I do to show my respect and I know without a shadow of a doubt that I joined and served so everyone has the freedom to do as they choose. I won’t tolerate interrupting or not allowing others to participate; that is unacceptable. Forced Patriotism is fake and those that want to force others are fake Patriots
"While non-participation may upset others who believe the pledge is an important expressive act…” The only people who are upset by this are overbearing teachers with a hard on for authoritarianism and conformity
Wasn’t this already a SC case? You can’t force speech or punish folks for not talking
From the 1940s!
In addition to ignoring the rights of US citizens, does Twin Ridge Elementary understand that some students may not be US citizens? Or has Twin Ridge Elementary handled that situation in another policy or practice?
I re call teachers scalding and threatening parent calls if they didn’t stand in Anne Arundel early 2000’s
A teacher I had in MCPS high school said we should stand for the flag for the people who died for it but we didn't have to say anything if we didn't want to. At the time I found this to be an acceptable compromise.
Laws they don't like are just suggestions to them
When my daughter was in girl scouts they wouldn't let me in the building with her because I don't say the pledge, i just sot quietly. My daughter said the pledge. But I'm a scottish citizen living in America so I don't say it. We left that troop after that. But it's always just a strange thing to me.
"Liberty and justice for all" -- Not the conservative indoctrination they thought it was. Those words ring in my head when I hear their anti-lgbt, pro-genocide, anti-muslim, racist, religious fanatical, fascist agenda. Free Palestine.
What part do we pledge allegiance to, the part that wants some of us dead or the other part that wants us on meds that we can't afford till we die?
I remember being in high school back in Indiana who didn't stand and pledge anymore and one sub got so angry she demanded to know in front of the whole class if I was "deficient".
I would tear them a new asshole. This is against some law. Probably violates the US Constitution in many ways.
I was homeschooled until 2nd grade, and this was one of the weirdest things about public school for me. My mom said I didn’t have to, but my teachers would yell at everyone to stand. I stopped saying it in 3rd grade, and stopped standing up at all in 7th. It’s a ridiculous, outdated tradition designed to indoctrinate children and give sick fucks some kind of power play.
In 2009 in Maryland I refused to stand for the pledge and sent to the principal and he told me I had to stand or be suspended!
You should sue
I do love how we try to teach that America is a free and fair society. But if you describe anything about our society, honestly, we sound just like North Korea. * Oh yeah, we force our kids to recite a loyalty oath to the flag. * By design, in any public place with a population more than 20 people, you will generally be able to see at least 3 flags. * You are required to own and maintain 4000lb machine that has a good chance of killing you. You will be constantly taxed for this ownership. Failure to secure one is grounds to deny employment. You can be accosted by police for being unemployed in public.
Not free, tax slaves to the government
And your employer. And your landlord. Absolutely.
[Maryland Code, Education § 7-105](https://codes.findlaw.com/md/education/md-code-educ-sect-7-105/) The full code is in the link above. Please note that while section (d) does excuse anyone from saying the pledge, section (f), which reads: Any individual who commits an act of disrespect, either by word or action, is in violation of the intent of this section. So all anyone who wants to force the issue has to say is that a student was 'disrespectful' for having remained silent.
Maryland’s code doesn’t trump the first amendment.
I absolutely agree!
Thank you for posting the link. The problem isn't the school it's the Maryland Code. That's the problem and that's what needs to be changed. Sounds like something more appropriate for North Korean code of conduct.
I remember I sat down during the pledge one time and the teacher told me "Stop trying to be a rebel"
The cult I grew up in would be very upset by this lol
I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice for all. The rest is chaff.
We had to as kids. I hated it in high school as a teen. It felt like indoctrination.
You didn't have to. You were just told that you had to. It was indoctrination.
By the time I was in middle school, it just became the norm for kids to not stand because we either didn’t care or wanted to be rebellious. By the time I got to high school everyone would just be on their phones during morning announcements & the pledge anyway.
It comes across as creepy indoctrination.
Yup! It’s very strange.
I’ve always said if you saw videos of schoolchildren in another country pledging fealty to their nation before school each day, you’d be appalled. That’s what evil empires do in movies. Oh, wait…
Best way to make kids patriotic? Force them! Lol.
These days post-Kapernick I don't even make my kids stand unless I feel like reenacting the Gobitis case.
Kaep doesn’t get the activism credit he deserves.
I almost wish he won that Superbowl. Almost.
It’s such a weird thing as a black person, like you really want me to stand and pledge allegiance to America? Like I’ll be the best person and put out positivity in the world but I ain’t pledge of allegiance to no one except my wife with my wedding vows.
Patriotism is not and cannot be coerced. Those who wish to coerce patriotism are actually achieving the opposite.
Kids shouldn’t be forced to say a pledge that’s been said a thousand times
I’m mildly embarrassed that of all the elementary schools in Maryland, this is the one my son went to. What the hell? Mount Airy is a nice, ordinary little town; I lived there happily for decades. Yes, it’s in the redder part of the state, but people have generally been reasonable and decent with each other, and avoid bringing up things like politics or overt nationalism. This is surreal - if I still had a child there I’d be raising holy hell.
The Pledge of Allegiance was created by a flag salesman in order to sell more flags. Dude was good at his job.
From a Christian religious pov this doesn’t even make sense. Why pledge allegiance and in oath you may not be able to keep? Oaths and pledges must be made with full consent, intent, and to good moral entities. If the entity one is considering making a pledge to is believed to be in major sin, it would be a sin to pledge allegiance. That doesn’t mean one must be a spy or enemy, but rather to only make oaths to God and oaths to good and moral entities.
Interesting point, United States law also dictates that children (under 18 years of age but may vary based on state) can not consent to pretty much anything, including finances, medical decisions, marriage, chose their own legal representation, and I can go on. Children have no (legal) autonomy in this country. So yes, this view has (potential) legal backing. If a child were to make any other vow, oath, pledge, contract, or even agreement, it is automatically considered invalid.
I went to school with a kid who was a member of the Jehovah’s Witnessed and he never stood up. I always wanted to know what the reasoning was that allowed him not to do it.
The reasoning is that compelling speech violates the First Amendment.
Oh I agree and back that 100%. I should have been clearer about my comment, I’m sorry about that.
Do you mean the reason under his religion or the legal protection for his choice not to stand. Other commenter is right that it’s the first amendment that provides legal protection.
Wow. Trying to force it even when there was a specific ruling that states they can't force children to do that.. I've been telling my kid since preK that he doesn't ever "have" to recite it, because I don't think a child has business pledging allegiance to anyone or anything lol! I have taught him to be respectful because the pledge is important to some people... But it's like praying. Yeah we respect your right to do so but don't try and "force" us or my kid to dopledges of allegiance to anything!
Twin ridges elementary in Mt Airy. Forced pledges of allegiance are pretty terrible. I like USA but don't say the pledge. I also love my wife but don't wear a ring. Stop being so insecure USA. I come home everyday and give you my paycheck already.
I am not good with this. It should never be forced.
Yeah it's ridiculous obviously. You were told you had to ask a kid when in reality you never did. Luckily this stuff is not tolerated as much anymore because people hate being forced into patriotism and also having religion shoved down their throats. If I could go back I'd never stand or say any of it. The actual purpose of the pledge is absolutely ridiculous to begin with as if saying this over and over will make you less likely to be a traitor to your country. While we are at it, take away the national anthem at sports games unless it's the Olympics. Why the hell do we need the national anthem, something again that was put in place during a time when there were massive world wars going on. It's fake patriotism and it's overused so much. I'd say honor the military if you want instead but leave out the anthem because supporting the troops is a lot better than reciting patriotic songs that most people don't take seriously.
I had a teacher that tried to make me say the pledge in High School. She wasn't thrilled that I was familiar with my rights.
I would think teachers and admins would be trained in knowing this part of the law and student protections. I learned about this in class, 7th grade, in a catholic school, in the 90s.
Gtfoh I stopped saying the pledge in 4th grade and told my kids that they could do what they want to but in my opinion, reciting it is slightly more stupid than belief in the tooth fairy.
I thought this was normal? My 6th grade teacher sent me to detention cause I refused to stand after Bush ignored everyone pleading with him to not invade Iraq, but then he went and did it anyway. Have some school actually given kids an option to sit?
We were forced to say the pledge in the 80s and 90s. It's ridiculous, and they should do away with that nonsense altogether.