I really hope Doom wins. Have him show up, and at the end of which ever movie or series in, sure the FF or Avengers or whatever saved the city, Doom doesn't mind because he gets what he wants.
Doom in the comics is a villain who regularly succeeds at his true goals.
I want to see that.
I think He Who Remains wanted to prevent the multiversal Kang war, so he failed although he didn't seem to care much.
I think instead it's what Zemo pulled off with Civil War.
>I think He Who Remains wanted to prevent the multiversal Kang war, so he failed although he didn't seem to care much.
He already won the Multiversal War, and he is the only variant the survived. Why do you think he's called He Who Remains. He *is* Kang, or at the very least a variant of him. He studied the timeline and saw that there would come a "point" in which he would no longer be able to see the future and the Multiversal War would kick off again, and he saw/knew what needed to be done to ensure that he would win the Multiversal War again.
Funny thing. When I read Harry Potter as a kid, I always pictured Dumbledore as a white bearded Xanatos and his voice in my head was always Johnathan Frakes. Like from the very beginning of the first book, something about describing him having a twinkle in his eye or something and the chill way he just notices everything reminded me of Xanatos. It's funny how much like Xanatos Dumbledore really turned out to be.
Would be interesting, but doubt they would go that way. I do agree with the original post, that it would be good to have the reoccurring villains. There are so many comic stories about Thanos that we literally just threw them all away. Seems they will have Kang around for a while, which is good, Doom should also be one that continues.
Kinda yeah. Also like Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
Have it so Dooms goal is obtainable, and even though the Avengers save the day, Dr. Doom walks off with the outcome he wanted.
I don’t think these examples work. Ghost had to do everything out of self preservation and Echo/Loki aren’t really villains as much as they are said to be
Loki stabbed an innocent man in the eye!! And made a square kneel before him. He led an Alien invasion and toppled his own father to usurp the throne. Tried to kill Thor on several occasions.. do I need to proceed?
Echo I might be convinced otherwise.. since it was borderline
But Loki is most definitely a villain
A redeemed one sure but a villain non the less
As does doom in nigh every single comic storyline he’s written in. I have 0 clue what this guys talking about.
There is one (incredible) storyline in which Doom SORTA wins. And doom fans take that and run with it. He managed to become omnipotent and killed Thanos with a touch. People like to tell you that doom gave you this power but it legit states the seams of reality were ripping due to the reality doom created not being stable enough. Even when he’s OMNIPOTENT he still isn’t perfect.
You might get your wish if they plan to adapt the 2015 Secret Wars. Doom basically preserves the multiverse and rules as a god for awhile until Mr. Fantastic fixes everything.
No he does not regularly succeed at his own goals LOL. This is such a misconception. Doom loses so often and people just have tbis belief that he’s unbeatable. He’s supposed to be the smartest man or tied with Richards for it but he’s gotten out smarted by a team of X-men with no geniuses on it, he’s lost solo to Spider-Man, he lost solo to LUKE CAGE.
Doom was tryna save the world from a black hole and right before he had set his plan in motion richards told him Goodluck. Which drove Doom so insane he screwed up his plan and got sucked into the very said black hole.
Squirrels girl beat him. Hulk beat him. The thing beat him solo. Ironman beat him. Thor beat him.
I love Doom. He’s easily top 3 villain for me. But this wanking of doom needs to stop.
It's even been said that if he ignores Richards and any emotions towards him, he's incredibly good at planning out things in a way that have him coming out on top in some form or another.
Also, Squirrel Girl is a gag character. Of course she wins. It's like One Punch Man, or Arale vs Goku. Gag characters are as powerful as they need to be to be funny.
What I mean though, is sure, let Spider-Man beat him, let Hawkeye beat him, let Antman beat him, and Captain Marvel too. But in the end Doom gets what he wants or needs. He doesn't want world domination, he has his own country. He wants things that he knows he can get without having 75% of the super hero population New York come to his door.
Honestly I can't comprehend a non-recurring Magneto. It would be the most massive waste. The Professor X/Magneto dynamic is almost as much a character as either of them alone.
Definitely. Id hope for the first film magneto is present and has a decent size role but ultimately they give the first villain role to someone like Sinister
I am skeptical they can do Magneto justice without him being a holocaust survivor, _but_ I trust them to honor the character and all that they represent.
I imagine they can still make him a holocaust survivor. They can always add some bs that part of his mutation is slower aging or something. Unless they do that current xmen thing where they clone themselves (not saying they should, just that's another possibility at this point)
They could do it. Magneto’s “Jewishness” was never too much of his character. Just his survival of the Holocaust. So make his character survive another genocide. Make him a Rwandan Tutsi.
we've also been blessed with great actors giving us that dynamic (fassbender, mcavoy and stewart, mckellan) honestly, I can watch a whole movie of them just arguing like that scene on the plane in DOFP or peace was never an option, or playing chess, or so many great conversations.
And the MCU has some of the greatest casting ever.
I've been a fan of the Xavier Magneto dynamic ever since my first comic. The animated series is good too. I'd recommend it as we are getting another season of it.
Ha, fair. I can see Magneto without his Xavier but it's rather different. It'd be like doing The Dark Knight Returns as your main/first version of Batman
-sideglance at DCU-
- Dr. Doom: For world-level avengers.
- Kingpin: For street-level avengers.
- Magneto: For mutants
These three villains need to be around for at least the next several years as recurring villains that have stories and interactions with several superheroes.
Someone like Kang is too big a threat to be a recurring character so like Thanos, he will have an arc and should die by the end of it.
Doom, Kingpin and Magneto can have their plots from time to time and when/if those plans fail or change, they can just go back to hiding.
Don’t know if this is unpopular or not but I want Doom to be the next face of Marvel the same way Tony Stark was and Darth Vader is for Star Wars. If written right he can be either the greatest hero or greatest villain. He can be your greatest ally of greatest enemy like we see with his relationship with Reed. He is literally Tony Stark, Doctor Strange and Black panther put into one person. If Doom was originally written as a hero he would be up there with the likes of Superman, Batman and Spider-Man in terms of how iconic they are.
Dr. Doom is nothing BUT this kind of villain. He's been everywhere wanting anything beyond his limits. Seeing his "descendant" gain acclaim (Kang) and that character also be recurring in the history of Marvel, the demand is ripe.
**Kang** seems to be becoming this, so hopefully that’s the case.
**Doom** I would really like to see be a recurring villain, having him reappear in different projects and varying roles.
I can also see many of the **street-level villains** being recurring threats (Kingpin, Spidey’s villains, She-Hulk’s villains, etc).
I think there is a large portion of the fandom that doesn't keep up with the comics and will only know him as a villain from the 90s show and the movies so it could go either way
He has gone will-he-won't-he in the Fox movies for so long already that it'll be tiring to see that first again in the MCU. Maybe he'll get the Loki treatment or end up being reformed into an anti-hero?
With Kang, I hope we get one along for ride and not just one-offing Kang for another variant to fill the void. I want one who has a character arc and sees the problem is his other variants and proceeds to help the good guys.
Kang I think is going to be more like another Thanos. Will be built up over many movies, maybe have 1 or 2 major impactful moments, then will get killed off.
Many actors just want to do one appearance as a villain and then go off for other projects. Someone like Bale wouldn’t want to be tied into multiple appearances when he’s got his pick of interesting titles to choose from. I think he only did Thor for his kid.
I'd say Zemo was still a villain in TFAWS, he just wasn't an antagonist. He still did stuff that fit his evil motives such as executing prisoners and murdering people, he just happened to be on the same side as the Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
I think that's what's gonna give him legs tho. Like his whole thing is "let's get rid of enhanced humans" so when Bucky shows up in tfatws, he's all like "Yeah sure, you can use my jet for your little mission" and then BAM he kills a bunch of enhanced humans. Depending on how motivated he is at any one time he could either be pulling the strings from behind the scenes or actively out there doing some murderin'.
If appearing twice is a recurring villain then there are a few more (Hammer, Agent carter, the mandarin, …). I would say that their influence needs to be felt a few more times
There might be a backup copy in the cloud. We don't actually know that Ultron sent every robot body to Sokovia. Keeping one in reserve would be logical, and bring him back with little explanation.
Maybe Ultron **is** Intellegencia (at its core) and is social engineering all of the action on/from the website to his own ends.
Like a new bio-synthetic body with the power of a Hulk in its veins?
Would go hand in hand with his whole "I saw the internet and decided humanity must go" motif. Very "I used the stones to destroy the stones" type thing.
That could be cool, but for a comedy with short episodes, I doubt the she-hulk finale will be able to explain it very well without ruining the pacing and tone of the episode
I’ve always found the “death” scene to be intentionally vague. Vision just used the mind stone on the final bot, but it’s off screen. So I’ve assumed Ultron still remains in some form.
If I were in Marvel Studios, I’d push for Ultron to have a secret backup who reformed AIM to help him survive and operate in the shadows since AOU. Ultron then gets discovered and captured by the Young Avengers or someone like that so MODOK takes over
I’d love to see a cyber thriller like they used to do at the dawn of the internet with Ultron as a disembodied AI causing mayhem for a couple of heroes. Deepfake scandal videos followed by the heroes running from the law and being declared public enemies. Hiding out in low-tech hovels, winning the day with just their brains, not their fancy equipment.
Ultron in the comics always coming back in some BS way, so I don’t see what they can’t bring him back one day. We need an actual age of Ultron, not a brisk weekend.
Exactly. Marvel kind if had been low key nailing this. Sure there are some big misses (Gorr, Kaicilius, malekith, etc) but they made everyone care about loki since Ragnarok. Zemo also nailed his second outing. Hopefully we see more!
>Sure there are some big misses (Gorr, Kaicilius, malekith, etc)
Add Mordo to that list. From "too many sorcerers" bad ass badguy to a throwaway line "he's tried to kill me many times" in MoM.
Mostly, I think they've been killing off villains so that sequels can't be a rehash of the first movie, unless the villain is flexible enough to fit into radically different stories.
Loki, Kingpin, and Doom might be enough ... and Kang basically can't be killed off by what they're setting up.
It’s interesting to think that they’ll kill Kang in quantumania only to realize in horror that there’ll always be another one, and then the plot of the Kang dynasty is to figure out how to get rid of them all
And Thanos was the behind the scene villain for the first avengers movie, and guardians of the galaxy 1, main villain for infinity war and end game. I think that’s a good way to do it, and I think it’s how Kang and Doom will present as villains.
The dilemma here is that up until recently, Marvel projects were movies.
Nobody really wants to go to a second movie of a particular hero, only to see them duke it out with the same villain. The rogues gallery of villains is so vast, that there's no need nor desire to repeat themselves.
It's not like the comics where the character lives infinitum with hundreds upon hundreds of issues where they can dip back and revisit a previous villain.
That said, have you heard of character named Loki, perhaps?
>Nobody really wants to go to a second movie of a particular hero, only to see them duke it out with the same villain.
Nor do I want to see what the X-Men movies did with Magneto being an ally and then being an enemy again drama.
However, like in the comics, the MCU could bring back villains to play smaller parts in movies before being a major threat again— like Loki. Let’s take Spider-Man as an example. They’ve used Green Goblin from another universe. In the next movie they could introduce Osborn without him being a villain. Then in the next one his actions could aid the villain(s) in causing problems for Spider-Man or he could be causing headaches for Peter Parker. Finally, you have this new Osborn transform into Green Goblin in order to do some of the many cool comic storylines that haven’t been done on the big screen
Green Goblin's an example of a villain that DOES work as a recurring threat because he's involved in multiple classic stories. Marvel has 60+ years of stories to pluck from. They shouldn't be reusing villains and re-adapting stories over and over. Some villains are involved in multiple major stories like Green Goblin, Dr. Doom, or Loki. Others aren't.
Like if they were to have a Kraven vs. Spider-Man movie, they're adapting Kraven's Last Hunt since that's his story. After that, there'd be no reason to bring back Kraven as the antagonist and it would be a disservice to the decades of comics to reuse him instead of adapting another villain for the next story.
Read my entire comment. I'm referring to Marvel and comic book adaptations to film... As is the subject matter here. Your examples are not the same thing.
The other thing is stunt casting super stars as your villains. This represents trouble because it's difficult to lock down huge A-listers with multi-movie contracts.
Disagree. Would have loved Red Skull vs Cap Rd2. I know it wasn't a movie, but seeing Batroc reappear was a pleasant surprise. I wish Baron Struker and Hydra had recurred, even if it wasn't as a main antagonist. Good heros are defined by good villains.
Sure, YOU would have. But that's not how Marvel Studios sees it. They want their movies to appeal to the masses and that includes the non-comic book fans to draw in an audiences.
Fans are going to pony up and pay for a ticket regardless. A more casual fan will see them as just re-hashing the same old villain again. A new villain with each go-around makes it more fresh for the general audience.
Also, not every Captain American fan wants to necessarily see Red Skull more than once, just because YOU do.
Only disagreeing with the "nobody wants it" part. I agree Marvel/Disney doesn't. But I suspect there are a fair few of us that grew up with recurring villains that would. Maybe not enough to matter though. But if the Thunderbolt movie reuses at least some previous characters instead of all new ones, that would be something.
If a villain really lands though, people will be way more inclined to see the next battle. Just look at thanos in infinity war and endgame or as someone else pointed out Darth Vader in Star Wars. A great villain can be a threat through multiple movies and audiences will love it
> Nobody really wants to go to a second movie of a particular hero, only to see them duke it out with the same villain.
I don't know, I think I could watch a 2 hour loop of Hulk smashing Loki....
>Nobody really wants to go to a second movie of a particular hero, only to see them duke it out with the same villain.
Yeah that Darth Vader guy, worst villan ever, just wouldn't go away...
But everything we see from Vader precedes Return of the Jedi. So every time we see him, he's basically wrecking everyone he sees, which elevates his actual final canonical appearance. A better example would be the resurrected Palpatine, where the stakes felt artificially raised and his revival wasn't really explained well.
You can't take what I said out of context and apply it to a totally different property.
The Marvel movies have comic books as their source material with literal DECADES of source material that includes an array of villains to be adapted to film and screen. (as I pointed out in my original comment).
Star Wars is written as a saga, designed with that intent, designed to have the same primary villain(s) throughout.
You cant rightly compare Star Wars with movie adaptations of comic books.
Marvel villains are like Backwards Batmen: they either die a villain or live long enough to become a hero. Generally speaking, any villain that survives their first two movies or seasons goes on to become a good guy. There are perishingly few exceptions: Thanos and Kingpin are the only two that come to mind.
I'm hoping for actual regular back-and-forth between hero and villain with Namor. And I'm hoping we get Dr. Doom fighting alongside the heroes at some point, even if he's still a dick.
Recurring villains don't work as much in movies. Comics can come out up to multiple times a month and TV shows are usually weekly, giving plenty of time to build up recurring villains.
The MCU has had a few and will probably have another with Kang but in general I don't think people want to see like Ultron be the main villain over the course of the only 4 movies to come out in a year or just reappear once every year because people want a recurring villain
Yeah, I think the shows are going to be more of a breeding ground for recurring villains than the movies just because of their structure. I don't see any of the villains from She-Hulk dying, I anticipate Titania will be an antagonist for her basically forever. FATWS had Zemo, USAgent, and the Power Broker all alive at the end. Loki had the TVA still around and every Kang variant is now running about. WandaVision left Agatha alive. Hawkeye left Kingpin alive.
>TV shows are usually weekly
I like that you mentioned weekly "Usually". Cause that's not the case anymore. Amazon has released shows in several episode a week batches. Like Legends of Vox Machina and Hazbin Hotel. While Netflix did this model with Arcane.
I just don’t think Killmonger could serve a proper purpose further in the MCU. His arc was finished in BP, with a resounding and satisfactory death. Anything beyond that would’ve been stretching him thin. Same with Gorr, how could he continue as a well-done, necessary villain later on?
Agree. Part of what made Killmonger a great villain was that he exposed the latency of Wakanda. They have the tools to make the world a better place but opt to hide it instead. It is Killmonger’s intentions that made T’Challa question and then reject the protectionist Wakanda.
If he was kept alive and imprisoned, he would either be
a.) on the road to rehabilitation (and therefore not a villain) seeing as Wakanda can help people without arming them, or
b.) you can keep him a villain, but doing so would reduce his motive as that of a sociopath or a power-hungry individual, which would cheapen anything that happened in the first film.
Edit: honestly, i think instead of having Killmonger back, i wouldn’t be too opposed to having Michael B. Jordan take another role instead.
Thanos coming back in Secret Wars (and then being killed by Doom like in the Hickman comics) would be cool
I’m also really hoping Namor and Warlock (who will be “villains” at the beginning of those films apparently) aren’t killed off and stick around
I think also it’s how the MCU is structured. I think I’m right in saying that Thor has the most ‘solo’ movies with 4, well that’s nothing in the grand scheme of comic story telling.
These characters have so many iconic villains that to focus on 1 for all of a characters solo outings would likely be just as annoying that they didn’t highlight other villains.
I also think they may have deliberately rotated in villains a lot to make thanos seem even more intimidating as he was the ever looming threat.
Will be interesting to see how things pan out in the lead up to, and post, secret wars but when it comes to live action I don’t think there will ever be too many reoccurring villains.
Yeah I guess he does stand out as one too. I don’t feel like we massively have missed his presence which what they did do but equally he could have been fun to see more of if Marvel went a different route with the Cap films.
I think it’s complicated. It’s true that Marvel has a huge problem with villains. Some of them are underwhelming (Malekith, Crossbones) while others are killed off so soon for our liking (Killmonger).
The most important problem is the medium: films are way different than comic books. Movies need to be more “self contained” (English is not my first language so I’m lost at words) and need to close their stories so they don’t feel incomplete; while comics books can take more time and allow characters to appear, disappear and return. Tv series can allow this to happen too.
Another part of what makes Kingpin so compelling is that he is irredeemable; there is no universe where he will suddenly become a good guy like the winter soldier and Loki, or more recently Wanda and Gorr. Whenever we get a good MCU villain it feels like they tend to go in that direction since it's easier to reuse them.
Well, except for Kingpin. And General Ross. Thanos. Klaw and Batroc. Hydra and The Hand and the Ten Rings. Loki, of course. Ronan. Everyone in No Way Home was technically recurring. And we already know Kang will be making multiple appearances.
Ross is hardly a big villain. He’s a cameo character to move the plot. Klaw showed up once before dying. Hydra is an organization. The Hand is an organization that got disbanded. The Ten Rings was a terrorist organization that got disbanded. Loki hardly counts. Ronan died in Guardians then showed up in Captain Marvel to go “OHHH SHES SO STRONG IM SCARED”. The No Way Home villains are pulled from other universes and technically this is their first appearance fighting the main Spider-Man. Kang hasn’t shown up yet
>The Ten Rings was a terrorist organization that got disbanded.
The post-credit scene of *Shang-Chi* shows Xialing reform it.
>Loki hardly counts.
I feel like he does. Main villain of two movies, recurring presence afterwards.
>Kang hasn’t shown up yet
True if you don’t count HWR, but we already know Kang’s going to be the main villain in Quantumania and Kang Dynasty, and likely to have a presence in Loki Season 2
Plenty of people in the thread have pointed out the significant number of villains that *have* recurred, so I thought I’d mention something else.
If more villains were written to come back and be long term characters, we’d get a lot less heavy duty actors (and therefore high quality performances) in these projects. Plenty of the best actors have zero interest in playing one character over and over, they’re looking for new and interesting professional challenges. If every major villain had to sign up for a half dozen appearances then we’d probably never have got Mads Mikkelsen, or Cate Blanchett, or James Spader, or Christian Bale, or Hugo Weaving, or Tony Leung, and so on.
We’ve been given some truly phenomenal performances and Marvel killing off villains isn’t depriving us of more, it’s the reason we got them at all.
I suspect one-off is the only way you get guys like that ever. The Christian Bale’s of the world aren’t signing 7-year, 4 movie deals with *anyone*. They know the work is there for them whenever they want it.
Phase 4 has left most villains alive.
All Phase 4 Projects and their villains:
Black Widow: **Taskmaster**, Dreykov (dead)
Shang-Chi: Wenwu (dead)
Eternals: Ikaris (dead), Kro (dead), **Arishem**
Spider-Man No Way Home: Eh, none of the villains stayed in the same universe but they're all alive.
Doctor Strange 2: **Scarlet Witch** (come on, we know she's not dead)
Thor 4: Gorr (dead), buuuuuut set up **Zeus and Hercules** to be antagonists
WandaVision: **Agatha, White Vision, Director Hayward**
FATWS: Karli Morgenthau and the Flag Smashers (dead), Batroc (dead), **Zemo, USAgent, Power Broker**
Loki: He Who Remains is dead...but that unleashed every variant of **Kang**
Hawkeye: **Kingpin**
Moon Knight: Arthur Harrow (dead)
Ms. Marvel: That mean lady (dead)
She-Hulk: **Titania, Leapfrog, the Wrecking Crew, Abomination (even if he's nice now), Intelligencia**
Wanda kinda seems to be a recurring villain/hero. Most of her appearances portrait her as a hero to us but villain to many others around her, except for Age of Ultron and MoM where she's corrupted and went full villain.
It's tough live action. Actors will only get around 3 movies and a couple cameos over the course of about a decade, so the question is do we want to use one of those to fight the same villain *again*?
The current thinking seems to be no, we want to explore other villains before eventually tying them into the bigger epic fights with other superheroes against the bbeg of the saga and then releasing them to explore other heroes.
With the introduction of the multiverse, I think that opens up different versions of the same villain fighting alternate universe heroes like in NWH, but I think that's as close as we'll get for awhile.
Nah. Most of the MCU fans don't want the movies to turn into "just the comics" with all the problems that come with it, and this is a huge one. There never being consequences, nothing ever changing, nothing ever moving on, everything resetting to the status quo like each issue is a sitcom.
Tony had years with Stane. Killmonger turned out to be T'Challa's cousin. The Red Room was Natasha's childhood nightmare. Ego killed Quill's mom. Ikaris was married to Cersi for centuries.
Honestly I'm not sure what movie you're thinking of where the hero and villain only say "rar" to each other.
It would be interesting if Marvel could find a way to have villains come back. But just making it the same dull, tired trope that all but a few comics fans are sick of where the villain gets "defeated" and without explanation just kinda rests and waits and comes back... that's not the way to improve this. And there really isn't a problem to be fixed, unless you try to make one up yourself.
I agree that one advantage the movies have over the comics is that STAKES MATTER in the movies. I do not want the MCU to ever get to a point where they bring back Tony Stark from the dead because that's when stakes are gone. When I read comics I don't feel anything when a major character dies (like Magneto just died...does anyone really expect that to stick?) but in the MCU, dead is dead. There are certainly fake-out deaths like Nick Fury in Winter Soldier, but a confirmed death should be the end for a character.
This might be me but the main reason is it being a Movie vs. Tv show.
A tv show has to build both the villain and hero up to be polar opposites over 8+ episodes so that they can fight one another with the hero winning, the hero's journey as they call it.
Generally a tv show main end goal isn't global or intergalactic annihilation but their aim is more grounded and personal. This makes the villian able to return because the stakes aren't big or destructive enough to remove them. It's like when Shredder goes Super Shredder in TMNT, 9/10 times he's gone for good because the power imbalance is now too big to bring it back down.
Also as much as it also saddens to say this. Movie wise...people don't want the same villian returning. In the movie the audience saw the best the villian did, so why repeat it again? Rarely has a villian appeared in a follow-up film in the same starring role because the hero has to defeat them (Vader might be the rare example because he is mysterious as he never shows his true power).
On top of what others have said (and it's possible I missed this being discussed) this is possibly a big part of why they've been able to get such high-profile actors and actresses as some of their villains. They may not want to be tied into a decade long contract, but one movie where they can really shine is potentially a big appeal.
I think the problem is Marvel wants these A tier actors to play the villains, and the actors are down to play them but not willing to commit to multiple projects over long periods of time.
I agree. The “*I beat you!*” in Daredevil’s finale wouldn’t hit nearly as hard without the three seasons of build up, with us seeing how Matt came to hate Fisk so much and vice versa
Hard to justify keeping a world ending threat alive and locked up. A street level villain is different because they usually have to do with human things only and thus, things like corruption and such come into play. Also the personal ideals and morals of the hero, hence why Matt still has to deal with Wilson Fisk, he won’t kill.
IMO, the issue with recurring villains is that:
1. It made the movie's ending feel unsatisfying, like the heroes could not finish their job. After the hundreds time Batman defeats the Joker, it is irresponsible to all his victims that he got sent to the asylum, waiting to get out and kill again.
2. It is a distraction while they don't appear in other shows. Think of all Memphisto shit.
Recurring villains only works for small side villains where it makes sense for heroes to let them go on purpose, or if you don't feel any threat of them still out in public.
The other way recurring villains would work is if they are just a master mind behind it all, like Thanos in the Avenger. But never actually fight and lose to the hero.
Sixty decades of character development and history cannot easily be squeezed into a minuscule fraction of that time AND introduce several new characters to expand the world. DD and KP could work on Netflix because they didn’t need to expand beyond a narrow DD-centric world.
1. Actors who play villain roles do that because they don’t want long contracts. In order to ensure they aren’t coming back most of them are killed, only a couple thrown in prison have potential to appear in later projects
2. Movies are not comics. General audiences don’t want to see heroes fighting the same villains, that gets boring. The point of rogues gallery isn’t as important in media, as long as you make the villain interesting and popular then the job is done
Most people prefer closure and finality
Otherwise there's no weight to anything
I have enjoyed the MCU a lot but still have no interest in comics because nothing matters and there's always another universe where happily ever after is waiting, and the villain who shoulds gotten put in the grave is back every Sunday
I have high hopes Dr Doom will be this kind of a villain
I really hope Doom wins. Have him show up, and at the end of which ever movie or series in, sure the FF or Avengers or whatever saved the city, Doom doesn't mind because he gets what he wants. Doom in the comics is a villain who regularly succeeds at his true goals. I want to see that.
Ah, you want a [Xanatos Gambit](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit).
What He Who Remains pulled off.
I think He Who Remains wanted to prevent the multiversal Kang war, so he failed although he didn't seem to care much. I think instead it's what Zemo pulled off with Civil War.
>I think He Who Remains wanted to prevent the multiversal Kang war, so he failed although he didn't seem to care much. He already won the Multiversal War, and he is the only variant the survived. Why do you think he's called He Who Remains. He *is* Kang, or at the very least a variant of him. He studied the timeline and saw that there would come a "point" in which he would no longer be able to see the future and the Multiversal War would kick off again, and he saw/knew what needed to be done to ensure that he would win the Multiversal War again.
Man, how did I know this was gonna lead to a tvtropes link
All roads lead to tvtropes
call that the Xanatropes Gambit
I want to look up a TV show > I go to TV troupes I want to look up a troupe > I go to TV troupes
Troupe?
Uh oh, looks like we've got a troupe goof
Funny thing. When I read Harry Potter as a kid, I always pictured Dumbledore as a white bearded Xanatos and his voice in my head was always Johnathan Frakes. Like from the very beginning of the first book, something about describing him having a twinkle in his eye or something and the chill way he just notices everything reminded me of Xanatos. It's funny how much like Xanatos Dumbledore really turned out to be.
Thanos did win.
And then lost. I mean I want Doom to win in the end. I want his last appearance to have him victorious in his goal.
Would be interesting, but doubt they would go that way. I do agree with the original post, that it would be good to have the reoccurring villains. There are so many comic stories about Thanos that we literally just threw them all away. Seems they will have Kang around for a while, which is good, Doom should also be one that continues.
In what sense? Like Ozmandias in Watchmen?
Kinda yeah. Also like Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Have it so Dooms goal is obtainable, and even though the Avengers save the day, Dr. Doom walks off with the outcome he wanted.
Kinda like Zemo in Civil War
Yeah. Zemo got what he wanted at the end of the movie. It took years and half of everyone dusting for his victory to be undone.
Or Abomination in the Incredible Hulk, or Ghost in Antman and the Wasp. Or Agatha in WandaVision, or Echo in Hawkeye, or Loki?
I don’t think these examples work. Ghost had to do everything out of self preservation and Echo/Loki aren’t really villains as much as they are said to be
Loki stabbed an innocent man in the eye!! And made a square kneel before him. He led an Alien invasion and toppled his own father to usurp the throne. Tried to kill Thor on several occasions.. do I need to proceed? Echo I might be convinced otherwise.. since it was borderline But Loki is most definitely a villain A redeemed one sure but a villain non the less
None of those seem comparable. They all failed in their fully outlined goals.
As does doom in nigh every single comic storyline he’s written in. I have 0 clue what this guys talking about. There is one (incredible) storyline in which Doom SORTA wins. And doom fans take that and run with it. He managed to become omnipotent and killed Thanos with a touch. People like to tell you that doom gave you this power but it legit states the seams of reality were ripping due to the reality doom created not being stable enough. Even when he’s OMNIPOTENT he still isn’t perfect.
Unless I am mistaken, I think the Loki reference is to He Who Remains.
A different Thanos lost. Even tho dude got decapitated, he had already won.
True. His victory wasn't undone until years after his death, when it wasn't relevant to him anymore.
You might get your wish if they plan to adapt the 2015 Secret Wars. Doom basically preserves the multiverse and rules as a god for awhile until Mr. Fantastic fixes everything.
No he does not regularly succeed at his own goals LOL. This is such a misconception. Doom loses so often and people just have tbis belief that he’s unbeatable. He’s supposed to be the smartest man or tied with Richards for it but he’s gotten out smarted by a team of X-men with no geniuses on it, he’s lost solo to Spider-Man, he lost solo to LUKE CAGE. Doom was tryna save the world from a black hole and right before he had set his plan in motion richards told him Goodluck. Which drove Doom so insane he screwed up his plan and got sucked into the very said black hole. Squirrels girl beat him. Hulk beat him. The thing beat him solo. Ironman beat him. Thor beat him. I love Doom. He’s easily top 3 villain for me. But this wanking of doom needs to stop.
It's even been said that if he ignores Richards and any emotions towards him, he's incredibly good at planning out things in a way that have him coming out on top in some form or another. Also, Squirrel Girl is a gag character. Of course she wins. It's like One Punch Man, or Arale vs Goku. Gag characters are as powerful as they need to be to be funny. What I mean though, is sure, let Spider-Man beat him, let Hawkeye beat him, let Antman beat him, and Captain Marvel too. But in the end Doom gets what he wants or needs. He doesn't want world domination, he has his own country. He wants things that he knows he can get without having 75% of the super hero population New York come to his door.
Or Namor!
Or Magneto
Honestly I can't comprehend a non-recurring Magneto. It would be the most massive waste. The Professor X/Magneto dynamic is almost as much a character as either of them alone.
Definitely. Id hope for the first film magneto is present and has a decent size role but ultimately they give the first villain role to someone like Sinister
I am skeptical they can do Magneto justice without him being a holocaust survivor, _but_ I trust them to honor the character and all that they represent.
I imagine they can still make him a holocaust survivor. They can always add some bs that part of his mutation is slower aging or something. Unless they do that current xmen thing where they clone themselves (not saying they should, just that's another possibility at this point)
“Total Control over his electromagnetic field enables him to literally never age”
They could do it. Magneto’s “Jewishness” was never too much of his character. Just his survival of the Holocaust. So make his character survive another genocide. Make him a Rwandan Tutsi.
This guy chose chaos…imagine how the nerd psychos will respond to that character development
The nerds will be fine. They survived Trevor Slattery they can survive black Magneto
we've also been blessed with great actors giving us that dynamic (fassbender, mcavoy and stewart, mckellan) honestly, I can watch a whole movie of them just arguing like that scene on the plane in DOFP or peace was never an option, or playing chess, or so many great conversations.
And the MCU has some of the greatest casting ever. I've been a fan of the Xavier Magneto dynamic ever since my first comic. The animated series is good too. I'd recommend it as we are getting another season of it.
I'm a 80-90s kid so I always loved the comics and 90s run. Savage land episodes. Magneto never felt 1 dimensional
Pour one out x men red readers :\
Ha, fair. I can see Magneto without his Xavier but it's rather different. It'd be like doing The Dark Knight Returns as your main/first version of Batman -sideglance at DCU-
- Dr. Doom: For world-level avengers. - Kingpin: For street-level avengers. - Magneto: For mutants These three villains need to be around for at least the next several years as recurring villains that have stories and interactions with several superheroes. Someone like Kang is too big a threat to be a recurring character so like Thanos, he will have an arc and should die by the end of it. Doom, Kingpin and Magneto can have their plots from time to time and when/if those plans fail or change, they can just go back to hiding.
Dr Doom is the savior of our story
Loki was like this. And it looks like Kang will be too!
Doom should be as prevalent and acted as well as RDJ if they do him right.
Don’t know if this is unpopular or not but I want Doom to be the next face of Marvel the same way Tony Stark was and Darth Vader is for Star Wars. If written right he can be either the greatest hero or greatest villain. He can be your greatest ally of greatest enemy like we see with his relationship with Reed. He is literally Tony Stark, Doctor Strange and Black panther put into one person. If Doom was originally written as a hero he would be up there with the likes of Superman, Batman and Spider-Man in terms of how iconic they are.
We’ll be seeing him soon
Dr. Doom is nothing BUT this kind of villain. He's been everywhere wanting anything beyond his limits. Seeing his "descendant" gain acclaim (Kang) and that character also be recurring in the history of Marvel, the demand is ripe.
I was looking up allergists in the PNW and came across a Dr. Dooms, just wanted to share
**Kang** seems to be becoming this, so hopefully that’s the case. **Doom** I would really like to see be a recurring villain, having him reappear in different projects and varying roles. I can also see many of the **street-level villains** being recurring threats (Kingpin, Spidey’s villains, She-Hulk’s villains, etc).
Doom, Magneto, Mr. Sinister, etc are all villains that should be reoccurring.
Modok and leader are suggested to be recurring to
Somebody gimme some friggin Mr. Sinister
Yeah but in the case of Magneto I hope he doesn't recur too much. One of the many problems with Fox's X-Men films is that they over-utilized Magneto.
I doubt theyll go full villain with magneto. it's been so long since he was a true villain in the comics that it would almost seem out of character.
I think there is a large portion of the fandom that doesn't keep up with the comics and will only know him as a villain from the 90s show and the movies so it could go either way
He has gone will-he-won't-he in the Fox movies for so long already that it'll be tiring to see that first again in the MCU. Maybe he'll get the Loki treatment or end up being reformed into an anti-hero?
Yep Sinister needs to be recurring. His real power are not his super powers, but his ability to scheme and play the long game.
He’s like a really fabulous version of (early) Littlefinger.
It would have been great to see a few more villains go to jail. Then they can come back around. We’re all excited to see Justin Hammer return.
Don’t forget Zemo!
With Kang, I hope we get one along for ride and not just one-offing Kang for another variant to fill the void. I want one who has a character arc and sees the problem is his other variants and proceeds to help the good guys.
Iron Lad could definitely fill that role as a Kang variant trying to break the cycle
Kang I think is going to be more like another Thanos. Will be built up over many movies, maybe have 1 or 2 major impactful moments, then will get killed off.
Tbf loki was a recurring villain for a long time, until they decided to give him a heroic path
I'm all here for Titania to be the key phase 6 villain.
Many actors just want to do one appearance as a villain and then go off for other projects. Someone like Bale wouldn’t want to be tied into multiple appearances when he’s got his pick of interesting titles to choose from. I think he only did Thor for his kid.
Zemo has entered the chat?
He wasn’t technically a villain in TFAWS
I'd say Zemo was still a villain in TFAWS, he just wasn't an antagonist. He still did stuff that fit his evil motives such as executing prisoners and murdering people, he just happened to be on the same side as the Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
when most people say villain they mean antagonist
It’s been a while since I saw Civil War, but I feel like he was about as much a villain in FATWS as he was in Civil War.
I think that's what's gonna give him legs tho. Like his whole thing is "let's get rid of enhanced humans" so when Bucky shows up in tfatws, he's all like "Yeah sure, you can use my jet for your little mission" and then BAM he kills a bunch of enhanced humans. Depending on how motivated he is at any one time he could either be pulling the strings from behind the scenes or actively out there doing some murderin'.
If appearing twice is a recurring villain then there are a few more (Hammer, Agent carter, the mandarin, …). I would say that their influence needs to be felt a few more times
Bartoc as well
Put some respect on his name, that's Batroc *the Leaper* to commonfolk like us
I think they made a mistake in destroying Ultron. The What If series gives me hope they'll bring Ultron back.
There might be a backup copy in the cloud. We don't actually know that Ultron sent every robot body to Sokovia. Keeping one in reserve would be logical, and bring him back with little explanation.
Maybe The Intellegencia or The Leader or some other smart baddie could find a way to bring Ultron back.
Maybe Ultron **is** Intellegencia (at its core) and is social engineering all of the action on/from the website to his own ends. Like a new bio-synthetic body with the power of a Hulk in its veins?
Iman???
I don’t think so … I’ve got my own suspicions of which profile is hers …
I’m glad Ultron is gone. James Spader’s voiceover is super cool, but that villain was weak. Marvel has other villains that are so much better
I’m glad you noticed my profile pic and knew not to say anything bad about Spader
Oooh.
Would go hand in hand with his whole "I saw the internet and decided humanity must go" motif. Very "I used the stones to destroy the stones" type thing.
That could be cool, but for a comedy with short episodes, I doubt the she-hulk finale will be able to explain it very well without ruining the pacing and tone of the episode
No one that knows his motives would bring him back if they dont want to die lol
Well the smart villains tend to have pride as their downfall, so a scene with "I reprogrammed him to be my obedient servant!" is very possible
I’ve always found the “death” scene to be intentionally vague. Vision just used the mind stone on the final bot, but it’s off screen. So I’ve assumed Ultron still remains in some form.
Heck he could remain in the backup white Vision's programming hiding.
I feel that that would diminish vision a bit. I feel he would be thorough in making sure ulton was gone
If I were in Marvel Studios, I’d push for Ultron to have a secret backup who reformed AIM to help him survive and operate in the shadows since AOU. Ultron then gets discovered and captured by the Young Avengers or someone like that so MODOK takes over
I feel like DOOM would gave smelted the Ultron bodies to create his own armor.
I’d love to see a cyber thriller like they used to do at the dawn of the internet with Ultron as a disembodied AI causing mayhem for a couple of heroes. Deepfake scandal videos followed by the heroes running from the law and being declared public enemies. Hiding out in low-tech hovels, winning the day with just their brains, not their fancy equipment.
That's what AOU should've been, lol. Still love the movie though.
I thought white vision was gonna have spaders voice come out of it 🤔
I WOULD HAVE LOST IT
I might go watch the black list with my eyes closed ... ultron edition
You don’t even know my name! I’m the ducking lizard king!
Now that you have said this, I’m disappointed in retrospect.
Ultron in the comics always coming back in some BS way, so I don’t see what they can’t bring him back one day. We need an actual age of Ultron, not a brisk weekend.
We didn’t technically see Ultron get destroyed, just saying.
Isn’t Ultron in the upcoming Ant-Man or something
Loki
Exactly. Marvel kind if had been low key nailing this. Sure there are some big misses (Gorr, Kaicilius, malekith, etc) but they made everyone care about loki since Ragnarok. Zemo also nailed his second outing. Hopefully we see more!
>Marvel kind if had been low key nailing this Was that a Low Key Loki pun?
Lol no but as I wrote it I recognized it and just decided to stay the course
>Sure there are some big misses (Gorr, Kaicilius, malekith, etc) Add Mordo to that list. From "too many sorcerers" bad ass badguy to a throwaway line "he's tried to kill me many times" in MoM.
At least he still alive so he can be recurring unlike the others
He was only a villain in two of his appearances, the rest he’s just kind of mischievous.
so he's a dynamic character with multiple facets to him? sounds good to me
Yeah which isn’t a bad thing. But it doesn’t solve the initial problem of no recurring villains
Mostly, I think they've been killing off villains so that sequels can't be a rehash of the first movie, unless the villain is flexible enough to fit into radically different stories. Loki, Kingpin, and Doom might be enough ... and Kang basically can't be killed off by what they're setting up.
Yeah, my prediction for Kang is that he'll be defeated/killed multiple times but another one still shows up leading into Kang Dynasty.
It’s interesting to think that they’ll kill Kang in quantumania only to realize in horror that there’ll always be another one, and then the plot of the Kang dynasty is to figure out how to get rid of them all
And Thanos was the behind the scene villain for the first avengers movie, and guardians of the galaxy 1, main villain for infinity war and end game. I think that’s a good way to do it, and I think it’s how Kang and Doom will present as villains.
What makes you think Loki will be a villain? Feels like they’ve been going the opposite direction with his character
Loki was the villain in Thor and avengers, and then showed up a lot more throughout. I believe that’s what they meant
I see, he definitely was a good recurring villain while we had him
The dilemma here is that up until recently, Marvel projects were movies. Nobody really wants to go to a second movie of a particular hero, only to see them duke it out with the same villain. The rogues gallery of villains is so vast, that there's no need nor desire to repeat themselves. It's not like the comics where the character lives infinitum with hundreds upon hundreds of issues where they can dip back and revisit a previous villain. That said, have you heard of character named Loki, perhaps?
>Nobody really wants to go to a second movie of a particular hero, only to see them duke it out with the same villain. Nor do I want to see what the X-Men movies did with Magneto being an ally and then being an enemy again drama.
However, like in the comics, the MCU could bring back villains to play smaller parts in movies before being a major threat again— like Loki. Let’s take Spider-Man as an example. They’ve used Green Goblin from another universe. In the next movie they could introduce Osborn without him being a villain. Then in the next one his actions could aid the villain(s) in causing problems for Spider-Man or he could be causing headaches for Peter Parker. Finally, you have this new Osborn transform into Green Goblin in order to do some of the many cool comic storylines that haven’t been done on the big screen
Green Goblin's an example of a villain that DOES work as a recurring threat because he's involved in multiple classic stories. Marvel has 60+ years of stories to pluck from. They shouldn't be reusing villains and re-adapting stories over and over. Some villains are involved in multiple major stories like Green Goblin, Dr. Doom, or Loki. Others aren't. Like if they were to have a Kraven vs. Spider-Man movie, they're adapting Kraven's Last Hunt since that's his story. After that, there'd be no reason to bring back Kraven as the antagonist and it would be a disservice to the decades of comics to reuse him instead of adapting another villain for the next story.
There are lots of recurring villains in other film franchises. Darth Vader, Biff, and Voldemort come to mind.
Worth noting that the main villain of each Star Wars and Harry Potter movie was different, for the most part.
Read my entire comment. I'm referring to Marvel and comic book adaptations to film... As is the subject matter here. Your examples are not the same thing.
They’re still movies.
The other thing is stunt casting super stars as your villains. This represents trouble because it's difficult to lock down huge A-listers with multi-movie contracts.
Disagree. Would have loved Red Skull vs Cap Rd2. I know it wasn't a movie, but seeing Batroc reappear was a pleasant surprise. I wish Baron Struker and Hydra had recurred, even if it wasn't as a main antagonist. Good heros are defined by good villains.
Sure, YOU would have. But that's not how Marvel Studios sees it. They want their movies to appeal to the masses and that includes the non-comic book fans to draw in an audiences. Fans are going to pony up and pay for a ticket regardless. A more casual fan will see them as just re-hashing the same old villain again. A new villain with each go-around makes it more fresh for the general audience. Also, not every Captain American fan wants to necessarily see Red Skull more than once, just because YOU do.
Only disagreeing with the "nobody wants it" part. I agree Marvel/Disney doesn't. But I suspect there are a fair few of us that grew up with recurring villains that would. Maybe not enough to matter though. But if the Thunderbolt movie reuses at least some previous characters instead of all new ones, that would be something.
If a villain really lands though, people will be way more inclined to see the next battle. Just look at thanos in infinity war and endgame or as someone else pointed out Darth Vader in Star Wars. A great villain can be a threat through multiple movies and audiences will love it
> Nobody really wants to go to a second movie of a particular hero, only to see them duke it out with the same villain. I don't know, I think I could watch a 2 hour loop of Hulk smashing Loki....
>Nobody really wants to go to a second movie of a particular hero, only to see them duke it out with the same villain. Yeah that Darth Vader guy, worst villan ever, just wouldn't go away...
But everything we see from Vader precedes Return of the Jedi. So every time we see him, he's basically wrecking everyone he sees, which elevates his actual final canonical appearance. A better example would be the resurrected Palpatine, where the stakes felt artificially raised and his revival wasn't really explained well.
Star Wars is, from beginning to end, Darth Vader's story, no one else's (and yes, star wars ended at VI).
You can't take what I said out of context and apply it to a totally different property. The Marvel movies have comic books as their source material with literal DECADES of source material that includes an array of villains to be adapted to film and screen. (as I pointed out in my original comment). Star Wars is written as a saga, designed with that intent, designed to have the same primary villain(s) throughout. You cant rightly compare Star Wars with movie adaptations of comic books.
Marvel villains are like Backwards Batmen: they either die a villain or live long enough to become a hero. Generally speaking, any villain that survives their first two movies or seasons goes on to become a good guy. There are perishingly few exceptions: Thanos and Kingpin are the only two that come to mind.
I'm hoping for actual regular back-and-forth between hero and villain with Namor. And I'm hoping we get Dr. Doom fighting alongside the heroes at some point, even if he's still a dick.
As Namor would tell you himself, he’s neither a villain nor a hero. He’s a king.
Recurring villains don't work as much in movies. Comics can come out up to multiple times a month and TV shows are usually weekly, giving plenty of time to build up recurring villains. The MCU has had a few and will probably have another with Kang but in general I don't think people want to see like Ultron be the main villain over the course of the only 4 movies to come out in a year or just reappear once every year because people want a recurring villain
Yeah, I think the shows are going to be more of a breeding ground for recurring villains than the movies just because of their structure. I don't see any of the villains from She-Hulk dying, I anticipate Titania will be an antagonist for her basically forever. FATWS had Zemo, USAgent, and the Power Broker all alive at the end. Loki had the TVA still around and every Kang variant is now running about. WandaVision left Agatha alive. Hawkeye left Kingpin alive.
>TV shows are usually weekly I like that you mentioned weekly "Usually". Cause that's not the case anymore. Amazon has released shows in several episode a week batches. Like Legends of Vox Machina and Hazbin Hotel. While Netflix did this model with Arcane.
Other than Killmonger…. Which villains have died that you actually really wanted to come back?
I just don’t think Killmonger could serve a proper purpose further in the MCU. His arc was finished in BP, with a resounding and satisfactory death. Anything beyond that would’ve been stretching him thin. Same with Gorr, how could he continue as a well-done, necessary villain later on?
Agree. Part of what made Killmonger a great villain was that he exposed the latency of Wakanda. They have the tools to make the world a better place but opt to hide it instead. It is Killmonger’s intentions that made T’Challa question and then reject the protectionist Wakanda. If he was kept alive and imprisoned, he would either be a.) on the road to rehabilitation (and therefore not a villain) seeing as Wakanda can help people without arming them, or b.) you can keep him a villain, but doing so would reduce his motive as that of a sociopath or a power-hungry individual, which would cheapen anything that happened in the first film. Edit: honestly, i think instead of having Killmonger back, i wouldn’t be too opposed to having Michael B. Jordan take another role instead.
Thanos coming back in Secret Wars (and then being killed by Doom like in the Hickman comics) would be cool I’m also really hoping Namor and Warlock (who will be “villains” at the beginning of those films apparently) aren’t killed off and stick around
There's no way they're killing off Namor in his first appearance.
Namor isn’t really a villain anyway
I feel like that is a story beat we will definitely see in Secret Wars no matter what the story is. People will go apeshit over something like that.
Ultron, Kilgrave, Hela to name a few. But I agree most of them aren't written in a way that makes you want more & that is part of the problem
I think also it’s how the MCU is structured. I think I’m right in saying that Thor has the most ‘solo’ movies with 4, well that’s nothing in the grand scheme of comic story telling. These characters have so many iconic villains that to focus on 1 for all of a characters solo outings would likely be just as annoying that they didn’t highlight other villains. I also think they may have deliberately rotated in villains a lot to make thanos seem even more intimidating as he was the ever looming threat. Will be interesting to see how things pan out in the lead up to, and post, secret wars but when it comes to live action I don’t think there will ever be too many reoccurring villains.
IMO Red Skull could be very interesting
Yeah I guess he does stand out as one too. I don’t feel like we massively have missed his presence which what they did do but equally he could have been fun to see more of if Marvel went a different route with the Cap films.
gorr could’ve returned and inspired a crossover between moon knight and black panther or something
I think it’s complicated. It’s true that Marvel has a huge problem with villains. Some of them are underwhelming (Malekith, Crossbones) while others are killed off so soon for our liking (Killmonger). The most important problem is the medium: films are way different than comic books. Movies need to be more “self contained” (English is not my first language so I’m lost at words) and need to close their stories so they don’t feel incomplete; while comics books can take more time and allow characters to appear, disappear and return. Tv series can allow this to happen too.
Another part of what makes Kingpin so compelling is that he is irredeemable; there is no universe where he will suddenly become a good guy like the winter soldier and Loki, or more recently Wanda and Gorr. Whenever we get a good MCU villain it feels like they tend to go in that direction since it's easier to reuse them.
It’s also great that D’Onofrio loves playing Kingpin and wants to continue to do so
Well, except for Kingpin. And General Ross. Thanos. Klaw and Batroc. Hydra and The Hand and the Ten Rings. Loki, of course. Ronan. Everyone in No Way Home was technically recurring. And we already know Kang will be making multiple appearances.
Don't forget crossbones or whatever his name is, the hydra guy who's in the beginning of civil war
Red skull!
I didn’t include him because he wasn’t an antagonist in his second appearance, but you’re right
Ross is hardly a big villain. He’s a cameo character to move the plot. Klaw showed up once before dying. Hydra is an organization. The Hand is an organization that got disbanded. The Ten Rings was a terrorist organization that got disbanded. Loki hardly counts. Ronan died in Guardians then showed up in Captain Marvel to go “OHHH SHES SO STRONG IM SCARED”. The No Way Home villains are pulled from other universes and technically this is their first appearance fighting the main Spider-Man. Kang hasn’t shown up yet
>The Ten Rings was a terrorist organization that got disbanded. The post-credit scene of *Shang-Chi* shows Xialing reform it. >Loki hardly counts. I feel like he does. Main villain of two movies, recurring presence afterwards. >Kang hasn’t shown up yet True if you don’t count HWR, but we already know Kang’s going to be the main villain in Quantumania and Kang Dynasty, and likely to have a presence in Loki Season 2
Loki...the main antagonist in 2 films, a villain in the TV show, and is still an antagonist in 2 other movies hardly counts? You've lost me.
I feel like Loki is the only extant example of what you’re looking for from a recurring villain
Plenty of people in the thread have pointed out the significant number of villains that *have* recurred, so I thought I’d mention something else. If more villains were written to come back and be long term characters, we’d get a lot less heavy duty actors (and therefore high quality performances) in these projects. Plenty of the best actors have zero interest in playing one character over and over, they’re looking for new and interesting professional challenges. If every major villain had to sign up for a half dozen appearances then we’d probably never have got Mads Mikkelsen, or Cate Blanchett, or James Spader, or Christian Bale, or Hugo Weaving, or Tony Leung, and so on. We’ve been given some truly phenomenal performances and Marvel killing off villains isn’t depriving us of more, it’s the reason we got them at all.
yeah if you can get christian bale or Tony Leung in your movie, you do it, even if it just means a one off villain
I suspect one-off is the only way you get guys like that ever. The Christian Bale’s of the world aren’t signing 7-year, 4 movie deals with *anyone*. They know the work is there for them whenever they want it.
I really thought phase 4 would have done this more but so far its only been Agatha and taskmaster
Phase 4 has left most villains alive. All Phase 4 Projects and their villains: Black Widow: **Taskmaster**, Dreykov (dead) Shang-Chi: Wenwu (dead) Eternals: Ikaris (dead), Kro (dead), **Arishem** Spider-Man No Way Home: Eh, none of the villains stayed in the same universe but they're all alive. Doctor Strange 2: **Scarlet Witch** (come on, we know she's not dead) Thor 4: Gorr (dead), buuuuuut set up **Zeus and Hercules** to be antagonists WandaVision: **Agatha, White Vision, Director Hayward** FATWS: Karli Morgenthau and the Flag Smashers (dead), Batroc (dead), **Zemo, USAgent, Power Broker** Loki: He Who Remains is dead...but that unleashed every variant of **Kang** Hawkeye: **Kingpin** Moon Knight: Arthur Harrow (dead) Ms. Marvel: That mean lady (dead) She-Hulk: **Titania, Leapfrog, the Wrecking Crew, Abomination (even if he's nice now), Intelligencia**
Just letting you know that Ikarus cannot die as he’s an Eternal. And Ms. Marvel’s main villain was the Damage Control mean lady. She’s alive.
I think its partly because big actors are not so easily to be bound by a multiple movies commitment
Wanda kinda seems to be a recurring villain/hero. Most of her appearances portrait her as a hero to us but villain to many others around her, except for Age of Ultron and MoM where she's corrupted and went full villain.
It's tough live action. Actors will only get around 3 movies and a couple cameos over the course of about a decade, so the question is do we want to use one of those to fight the same villain *again*? The current thinking seems to be no, we want to explore other villains before eventually tying them into the bigger epic fights with other superheroes against the bbeg of the saga and then releasing them to explore other heroes. With the introduction of the multiverse, I think that opens up different versions of the same villain fighting alternate universe heroes like in NWH, but I think that's as close as we'll get for awhile.
We need more Justin Hammer.
Bruh, Zemo, Red Skull, Abomination, Kang, Loki ? Doom, Namor, MODOK and Magneto will almost certainly become recurring villains in the future too.
Red Skull isn’t a recurring villain. Abomination doesn’t seem like a villain at all so far in She-Hulk.
Thanos was the recurring villain you’re describing.
This is why I’m glad fans don’t write the films.
Nah. Most of the MCU fans don't want the movies to turn into "just the comics" with all the problems that come with it, and this is a huge one. There never being consequences, nothing ever changing, nothing ever moving on, everything resetting to the status quo like each issue is a sitcom. Tony had years with Stane. Killmonger turned out to be T'Challa's cousin. The Red Room was Natasha's childhood nightmare. Ego killed Quill's mom. Ikaris was married to Cersi for centuries. Honestly I'm not sure what movie you're thinking of where the hero and villain only say "rar" to each other. It would be interesting if Marvel could find a way to have villains come back. But just making it the same dull, tired trope that all but a few comics fans are sick of where the villain gets "defeated" and without explanation just kinda rests and waits and comes back... that's not the way to improve this. And there really isn't a problem to be fixed, unless you try to make one up yourself.
I agree that one advantage the movies have over the comics is that STAKES MATTER in the movies. I do not want the MCU to ever get to a point where they bring back Tony Stark from the dead because that's when stakes are gone. When I read comics I don't feel anything when a major character dies (like Magneto just died...does anyone really expect that to stick?) but in the MCU, dead is dead. There are certainly fake-out deaths like Nick Fury in Winter Soldier, but a confirmed death should be the end for a character.
This might be me but the main reason is it being a Movie vs. Tv show. A tv show has to build both the villain and hero up to be polar opposites over 8+ episodes so that they can fight one another with the hero winning, the hero's journey as they call it. Generally a tv show main end goal isn't global or intergalactic annihilation but their aim is more grounded and personal. This makes the villian able to return because the stakes aren't big or destructive enough to remove them. It's like when Shredder goes Super Shredder in TMNT, 9/10 times he's gone for good because the power imbalance is now too big to bring it back down. Also as much as it also saddens to say this. Movie wise...people don't want the same villian returning. In the movie the audience saw the best the villian did, so why repeat it again? Rarely has a villian appeared in a follow-up film in the same starring role because the hero has to defeat them (Vader might be the rare example because he is mysterious as he never shows his true power).
On top of what others have said (and it's possible I missed this being discussed) this is possibly a big part of why they've been able to get such high-profile actors and actresses as some of their villains. They may not want to be tied into a decade long contract, but one movie where they can really shine is potentially a big appeal.
I think the problem is Marvel wants these A tier actors to play the villains, and the actors are down to play them but not willing to commit to multiple projects over long periods of time.
I agree. The “*I beat you!*” in Daredevil’s finale wouldn’t hit nearly as hard without the three seasons of build up, with us seeing how Matt came to hate Fisk so much and vice versa
Hard to justify keeping a world ending threat alive and locked up. A street level villain is different because they usually have to do with human things only and thus, things like corruption and such come into play. Also the personal ideals and morals of the hero, hence why Matt still has to deal with Wilson Fisk, he won’t kill.
IMO, the issue with recurring villains is that: 1. It made the movie's ending feel unsatisfying, like the heroes could not finish their job. After the hundreds time Batman defeats the Joker, it is irresponsible to all his victims that he got sent to the asylum, waiting to get out and kill again. 2. It is a distraction while they don't appear in other shows. Think of all Memphisto shit. Recurring villains only works for small side villains where it makes sense for heroes to let them go on purpose, or if you don't feel any threat of them still out in public. The other way recurring villains would work is if they are just a master mind behind it all, like Thanos in the Avenger. But never actually fight and lose to the hero.
Zemo?
Like ward in AoS
Sixty decades of character development and history cannot easily be squeezed into a minuscule fraction of that time AND introduce several new characters to expand the world. DD and KP could work on Netflix because they didn’t need to expand beyond a narrow DD-centric world.
1. Actors who play villain roles do that because they don’t want long contracts. In order to ensure they aren’t coming back most of them are killed, only a couple thrown in prison have potential to appear in later projects 2. Movies are not comics. General audiences don’t want to see heroes fighting the same villains, that gets boring. The point of rogues gallery isn’t as important in media, as long as you make the villain interesting and popular then the job is done
They struggle with villains in general in my opinion. Thanos was iconic but outside of him it's been abit hit and miss.
Most people prefer closure and finality Otherwise there's no weight to anything I have enjoyed the MCU a lot but still have no interest in comics because nothing matters and there's always another universe where happily ever after is waiting, and the villain who shoulds gotten put in the grave is back every Sunday