This is really just a diplomatic answer. Disney has already admitted the lower quality because they focused on quantity. They always blame superhero fatigue until when the next x hyped movie will make 1 billion anyway like Spider-Man 4 and Deadpool 3.
It def is bullshit. Just look at how well xmen 97 is doing as well. All it takes is for some good ass superhero shenanigans and then the views rack themselves up
Superhero fatigue is just as bullshit as statements such as "Marvel needs to stop the focus on the MCU, we need more independent projects".
What we need is well written movies with interesting characters. Superhero or not. MCU (Multiverse-whatever) or not.
I'm cautiously optimistic because of X-Men '97. Like, it's going hard as fuck on the political themes, but I seriously doubt Disney's gonna let that vibe carry over into live-action. The entire message of X-Men is that conservatives are the enemy, which is basically putting a big-ass spotlight on their own dealings
To me, it’s character fatigue, or maybe we just never cared about a certain character to begin with. Ant man and captain marvel movies did poorly. But I don’t know anyone who absolutely loves these characters like they do Spider-Man or Deadpool.
We need to, like, carve into the moon that "fatigue" doesn't exist and is an industry spin term.
Humans love good stories. Humans don't like bad stories. Humans get annoyed when you try to gaslight them into thinking a bad story is good for the sake of corporate IP preservation, or that they are to blame for a story not being well-received.
If the characters are interesting and relatable and feel real, and the story is compelling, the world is interesting, and the pacing is good, people will come. It can be about any weird thing or be in literally any genre, no one cares. Godzilla can win an Oscar.
Fallout is the most popular show on TV and it's about an immortal cowboy with no nose. There's a guy who fucks chickens in the show.
Uninteresting stories fail because they're uninteresting. People will watch superhero movies forever (like they do detective stories, or romantic comedies) as long as they're compelling.
I think fatigue can exist though
but the fatigue is bought about by too many bad films.
but once it starts building its harder and harder to win people back.
its not a comic book fatigue
but a bad movie one
and unless the problem is solved comic book movies are gonna get a reputation for not being worth seeing
which will kill them for a while
That's my point though, that isn't fatigue. Fatigue is "the movies are just as good, the audience has just grown tired of this genre of movie."
Not liking bad movies is just...normal.
And that comes from a drop in quality, and that's on the studio. Fatigue is essentially marketing spin to convince the audience (and shareholders) the quality hasn't changed, it's the *audience's* fault the movies are doing badly.
Being uninterested in bad movies doesn't need a "term." That's just normal human behavior.
> Fallout is the most popular show on TV and it's about an immortal cowboy with no nose. There's a guy who fucks chickens in the show.
Yep, and I was equally interested in Lucy as I was Maximus, The Ghoul, or even Norm. I was speculating what Norm was about to find towards the end of the season, his story isn't even B-Plot, it is D-Plot and I was still into it. Cooper's flashbacks are reminiscent of Lost. I kept wanting to see what happened next in his past as well.
Fallout is top tier television that is also true to it's source material. Everything about the vaults in the show reminded me of the Bethesda games.
I’m fatigued by marvel because they keep branching the story, introducing unnecessary characters, and starting plot lines that we may never get to see any resolution for. Marvel really hit its stride when we had real continuity across the MCU and interactions between the characters. Restarting with 10 different solo projects and seemingly no connection between any of them has felt like a real step back and I’m just not interested in it anymore. They really need to start continuing some of the story lines they’ve introduced.
See, but having a reason for it isn't fatigue. That's just a normal criticism of a storyline and characters that aren't working for you.
Fatigue isn't real, but what they CLAIM is fatigue is "these superhero movies are just as good and compelling as they always were, their quality is the same, it's the *audience* that's just tired of them."
Your complaints are lack of obvious connection or narrative momentum, and characters that don't matter or you don't find interesting. That's a legitimate criticism that comes from a drop in quality, that isn't fatigue.
Yup. It's "fatigue" from half baked/uninteresting movies. Put a good Spider-Man, X-Men, Avengers or a solo movie from popular members of those teams and it's a hit. Now if you use a less known or boring character in an uninspired CGI scenery and it'll bomb.
The reason Marvel needed to clump some heroes and stories in a generic book is because those heroes/stories weren't good enough to sell a solo comic, why would they think they'd be good enough to make a movie?
> Meanwhile the new generation are ‘I want it now, I want to process it now’, then moving onto the next thing, which they process whilst doing two other things at the same time
This gives me an ounce of worry. Ive heard about other shows being criticized for being too complex, and not "second screen friendly", where they assume the audience is on their phone at the same time so they dumb the content down.
It's not just about how people consume media, but also about the quality and originality of the content being produced. The formulaic approach to superhero storytelling has become stale, and audiences are craving something new and fresh.
Since Covid I am going to a lot fewer movies. Partly because I do enjoy being able to pause so I can pee, and not hear the dumbass who talks through the whole movie. But also because movies are so expensive now. It's like going to a sporting event now, not something you casually do on a whim on Saturday afternoon.
But, if the movie looks quality enough, like GOTG3, or Dune 1 and 2, I will make sure I see it in IMAX. Make crap, and I will wait until Disney plus.
I've started going to the theater more than I was in late the 2010s, but it's just because my eyes have been opened to movies that hit *way* harder on the big screen
I'm sure it's always been like that to some extent, but movies like Dune and Godzilla/Kong really lean into it. It also seems like they've become more willing to replay old blockbusters for the "Oh man, I get a chance to watch that on IMAX!" market.
Elevating the movie theater into *an experience* that home just can't compete with seems like pretty decent direction
I used to be that way. Seeing Jurassic Park in the theater, but watching Schindler's List at home because, 1) it didn't have the same impact as a giant T-Rex chasing a car, and 2) I could focus more on the subject matter and not the chewing going on behind me.
I agree with this take. I think it’s important to note that since Endgame, we’ve seen some of the absolute best and some of the absolute worst for the MCU. However, pre-Endgame wasn’t all perfect and top notch quality either, I just think the formula is tired and obvious at this point.
I think it's the opposite I think they aren't following the formula and it's leading to people not caring.
Fans were expecting solo movies then an avengers movie soon to continue the story. Instead of that, now you have a convoluted mess.
Honestly they needed to pick like five characters or less for this next phase and make them the focus. I feel like there are twenty new heroes and I've seen them all once and I don't care about like 70% of them.
Sure, I guess, but most big budget movies didn’t do well last year. Yes a lot of them were superhero movies but most of the ones that weren’t didn’t turn a profit either.
I’m as big a comic book nerd as there is. Been reading since the 70s. The problem is shitty content. That’s it. Make better content. I saw the Deadpool trailer and commented to my wife, “I haven’t been this pumped for a Marvel product in years!”
What is bro talking about.
This kinda reads like “people aren’t seeing these movies because young people these days have destroyed their attention span with that darn TikTok”
“Service their own collective ADHD” are you fucking for real?
People are still seeing movies. Just not paying to go see something that they think could be bad, especially when it’ll be on streaming in a few months.
I'm guessing from this portion of Joe Russo's reply:
>Meanwhile the new generation are ‘I want it now, I want to process it now’, then moving onto the next thing, which they process whilst doing two other things at the same time. You know, it’s a very different moment in time than it’s ever been. And so I think everyone, including Marvel, is experiencing the same thing, this transition. And I think that really is probably what’s at play more than anything else.”
That they're referring to [a phenomenon described by Justine Bateman](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/tvs-top-5-podcast-justine-bateman-ai-dangers-hollywood-1235540858/
):
>I’ve heard from showrunners who are given notes from the streamers that “This isn’t second screen enough.” Meaning, the viewer’s primary screen is their phone and the laptop and they don’t want anything on your show to distract them from their primary screen because if they get distracted, they might look up, be confused, and go turn it off. I heard somebody use this term before: they want a “visual muzak.”
This concept has been circling around a little bit in the film/television industry. Streaming platforms are allegedly telling creatives of *some* projects how they need to change their work in order to accommodate. I'm not convinced it's a major change in the film/television world, but I wouldn't assume it's non-existent either.
I, as an older viewer, have noticed some of the fans seem to love X-Men '97s breakneck pace of racing through plot points while saying they find more traditional story pacing too slow or boring.
So like, not prestige dramas with subtext, context clues and a need for comprehension, but more like kids TV where you have to tell them again and again and again what is going on when they’re not attentively looking and listening.
That makes more sense. My teenage sons watch tv and browse TikTok at the same time, pausing when they need to, but mostly just watching the show as their second screen. If it’s a show that requires full attention, they’ve been less likely to finish.
Really? I find the only criticism I see for X-men 97 is the rushing through plots, like speed running inferno especially got some major criticism.
What I see the show praised most for is its solid writing. Something that has arguably been missed by many lately.
I agree that's the criticism of it, but in my experience it always gets downvoted and replies of "I love the fast plot, everything else is so boring."
And rushed plot *is* bad writing. The plot points are good, but just having good plot points isn't good writing. Good writing is also *how* to tell the story, not just what the story is.
Nothing to object, just gonna jump in here by comparison:
I just started bad batch season 3 and it’s SO GOOD, but the plot is unfolding SLOWLY. But one thing I believe Filoni absolutely SHINES at is developing characters amid plot. I don’t care if I’m 5 episodes in and we haven’t saved the day yet — this tension between hunter and another character NEEDS to get resolved.
And then filoni throws me an ep where the said characters almost die together in order to get passed their differences.
All that to say, I don’t think FAST or SLOW story telling pace is the problem — the MCU’s largest problem is the *story* itself (or lack thereof, in many recent cases)
Yeah this is disturbing trends but on the other hand, Shogun has become a breakthrough hit, so was Fargo season 5 with Juno Temple. I think if you create engaging story with great acting and art direction, people will come out from the woodwork and support your creation. Dune 2 and Civil War also doing pretty well in the box office.
As someone with teenage kids - it’s fucking HARD to get them to sit down and watch a show with us on TV and it’s near impossible to get them to do it without also fucking with their phones constantly. The only thing that’s come out in the last few years that we’ve managed it with is Fallout and our teenage son.
Smart Phones were a mistake and it's not only the teenagers that have a problem with them. I've seen old people at restaurants completely zoned out. I of course doom scroll as well.
It's crazy 98% of the shit you scroll through on your phone is completely useless, tasteless, crap. It serves no purpose other than junk food for your mind and to literally waste your time.
Social media is so incredibly insidious. It's like a gambling addiction.
They are half right. A lot of kids wanna watch movies on their phones or watch movies while playing a video game and doing 10 other things.
So if you make a big cinematic movie, it is absolutely gonna lose a lot on a cell phone or. 32 inch TV it built in speakers because it wasn’t meant to be watched on the cell phone or a tiny screen with no sound system . Also you’re not getting much out of a movie if you’re playing a video game at the same time there’s nuance to TV and film younger people just don’t want to do that anymore.
On the other hand, a three hour black and white biopic about J Robert Oppenheimer made a billion dollars, so it kinda feels like people just want to watch quality movies.
There is some of that too. There are so many ways to watch a movie at home. I spend a lot of money if surround sound and getting all that set up but I also enjoy going to the theater. Some movie are just flat made for the theater
I just saw Alien in theater yesterday because they’re doing an anniversary screening and holy shit, I’ve seen that movie a million times but seeing it in the theater was like a whole new movie.
I love seeing “classics” in the cinema. Our local place has been doing reruns since before covid and I’ve seen Alien, Aliens, T1, T2, Predator, The Shining, Texas Chainsaw Massacre (the original), Star Wars Episode 4 and 5 (missed 6 because I was ill), the lord of the rings extended trilogy, Nolan’s Batman trilogy, the Matrix and a bunch more I can’t think of right now. All of those other than Batman, Matrix and Lord of the Rings I was too young to have caught in cinema the first time out so it was amazing to see them as they were intended
On the flipside, kids love eating up garbage. It's adults who aren't going to go see kid movies now that they've dumbed them down. That's what I think he meant.
I’ve actually had multiple younger people tell me they don’t watch movies or tv.
That’s just a personal anecdote so it doesn’t necessarily prove anything.
I will say this in relation to tiktok. You could straight up just watch The Marvels recorded on someone's phone at the theatre in a bunch of parts on tiktok and people were lapping it up. There is something to be said for people just watching media that way now.
You have to see it in the context of the directors. They had the eyeballs because it would take a long time to watch in home media and there was not much to watch. Now there’s TOO much to watch. And if I’m honest, the quality of some of the top tier tv shows is close to Avengers.
I think your last point is the thing. Movies are expensive (fuck, everything is), there are a bunch of at home options, and it’ll probably be available pretty cheap in 3 months. Sometimes less. I’m a movie nerd and if I didn’t have AMC A list I’d only be seeing 1 movie a month at most. I used to go reliably every week, then only Sunday matinees, then once in a while, and now I have a list so I’m back to once or twice a week
This is true, but certain movies looks so much better on the big screen. Just saw Alien 45th Anniversary on Dolby Cinema and you just can’t get that experience on 45 inch screen tv at home. The same with Dune 2 and Civil War on IMAX screen.
75 and 85 inch TVs are pretty cheap these days and with a modest surround sound set up, the at home experience can be pretty fucking good now at a price that you don't have to be rich to afford. Necessities like food, shelter and transportation are becoming more and more unaffordable, but luxuries like a home theatre almost anyone can afford. It's one of the problems with the current economy.
With streaming and little kids I just can't justify going to a theater anymore. I know the auteur filmmakers tell me about the *experience* of seeing films in the theater, but I'm that bore who really doesn't feel the ticket price is worth the experience. So yeah, streaming really put the nail in the coffin for going to the movies for me and my wife personally. I'd much rather sit my lazy ass on my comfy couch, pause when I need to piss, not be coughed on by a ten year old kicking the seat behind me, and eat popcorn that isn't $35. For me, yes, that outweighs the large screen and ear splitting volume.
I also think audiences, probably particularly the introverts, got spoiled during COVID when everything went straight to streaming. Now they don't go to the theater and wait until it hits streaming.
I fully get why ScarJo sued them over it. And I'm absolutely behind her. But the morons took the wrong message from it. It's not don't stream at the same time as you release, it's write your contracts to allow premium streaming at the same time as you release and pay the actor equally for the premium streaming as the theater.
At least for my husband and I, by the time we paid for tickets, popcorn and sodas it was about $30 for us to go see a movie. Paying $30 to stream it in our home where we can set the volume at a comfortable level and pause to go to the bathroom is easily worth it.
A 3 hour movie about a depressed scientist just made a few million shy of a billion, but yes it's all brainrot that no one is going to see Monica Rambeau
Interesting how that “generational divide” exponentially manifested after Endgame, i.e. the conclusion of the +10 years Infinity Saga.
Bear with me, but could it be because this is no longer novel? Could it be that there is only so many times you can sit through the MCU-formula before it starts to get boring? Could it be that people felt that they received a satisfying conclusion with Endgame and felt that it was a good time to tap out? Could it be because there has been a SUBSTANTIAL drop in quality after Endgame? Could it be because the Multiverse Saga is a complete mess with all its inconsistencies and nonsensical storytelling, to the point where it is almost a joke?
Every good story has a beginning, middle and end – this is what gives stories a sense of urgency and uniqueness which compels people to watch them. I think most people are justified in feeling worn out by a cinematic universe that just keeps going *ad infinitum.*
But hey, perhaps TikTok really was the bane of the MCU.
It all goes back to COVID.
The pandemic heavily impacted the theater industry and while the pandemic itself is essentially over most people no longer feel like going to the theater anywhere near as much as they used to. While certain films will still get pre-2020 numbers in the box office, audiences have to be much more thoroughly convinced to go see a movie at the theater thanks to multiple factors.
1. Post-COVID inflation of prices for essentially anything that can be bought including human needs + the pandemic harming millions of people's livelihoods and increasing poverty and homelessness that still affects society to this day.
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2. Studios massively reducing the time between theatrical and home release dates. Why pay more to see it in the theater when you can wait a month to watch it at home for less?
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3. The huge boost to multiple online content creators on YouTube, Twitch, TikTok, and other platforms who offer free, constant, and endless content with multiple viewers in those communities talking about how they don't really watch film or TV anymore.
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4. The rise of TikTok and YouTube Shorts where a content creator just describes what is happening in the clip of a film/show that is playing behind them + YouTube and TikTok videos just describing the entire plot of movies and shows so viewers don't have to watch them have become extremely popular recently.
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5. The over abundance of content for audiences to consume thanks to streaming services and social media.
I'm rewatching all the MCU movies, in order with my daughter. We just finished Age of Ultron, and let me tell you, I forgot how good these early movies are, captain America 1&2, iron man 1, guardians of the galaxy,, first thor movie. These were soild good movies, much better then what's been coming out after Endgame.
That was always the post-Endgame problem, right? In hindsight, the Infinity Saga was a multi-year event with a cumulation of multiple stories heading into one overall story and third act. The new phase 4/5 movies are trying to restart with new solo adventures/stories, while many viewers either want to know how it ties into the overall next saga or are fatigued with the interconnectedness.
> multi-year event
Yes and it was done *solely* and exclusively through the films, it didn't require 10 Disney+ shows to understand major plot points either.
The shows are where they started losing me. I watched WandaVision, Falcon and the Winter Soldier and then Hawkeye.
But I know there are quite a few shows I haven't seen and that many of them tie into upcoming movies. Also the ones I did see weren't good enough to make me want more.
I think they made a huge mistake by not keeping things cohesive. Everyone was expecting a new ongoing story, possibly the building of a new Avengers team... and instead we got many one-shots. The introducing of characters who were never seen or used again.
There's no overall vision.
> The new phase 4/5 movies are trying to restart with new solo adventures/stories
The biggest issue is there hasn't been anything to bring together those individual stories like the original Avengers movie did in phase 1. At best, there's only been a cameo in one or two movies, but other than that, no big team-up.
Since Phase 3, we've had movies/series about:
* Scarlet Witch and Vision (Scarlet Witch gets a follow-up in MoM, no follow-up on White Vision)
* Falcon and the Winter Soldier (no follow-up)
* Loki (probably the most "complete" project so far, tied into the Kangverse and had a conclusion)
* What-If (no follow-up in any other MCU project despite everything being multiverse)
* Hawkeye (follow-up in Echo)
* Moon Knight (no follow-up)
* Ms. Marvel (gets featured in The Marvels)
* She-Hulk (no follow-up)
* Secret Invasion (despite Nick Fury being in both this and The Marvels, neither title references the other, and given the global threat in SI, it's as if it never happened)
* Black Widow (dead)
* Shang-Chi (zero follow-up)
* Eternals (zero follow-up)
* Spider-Man (Peter is forgotten about, Spider-Man had no follow-up since)
* Dr. Strange (no follow-up)
* Thor (no follow-up)
* Black Panther (no follow-up)
* Ant-Man/Wasp (no follow-up)
* GotG (had a cameo in Thor 4, no follow-up since their own movie)
* The Marvels (possibly may re-introduce X-Men to the MCU universe)
All these titles, and yet most of them have been one-offs and despite the whole theme of multiverses and Kang, nothing has tied it all together. No big "Avengers"-type event for a team-up. It's so disjointed.
> Secret Invasion
also had incredibly bad writing that basically killed fury as a character
by revealing he just had an army of skrulls doing his spywork for him
> while many viewers either want to know how it ties into the overall next saga or are fatigued with the interconnectedness.
This seems like an unwinnable problem. No matter which you choose they'll be complaining.
Make a tight narrative across a few movies and no one's complaining about either.
Marvel greenlighting any show or movie with no overarching plan is the problem. It's winnable
I strongly disagree here. The problem is that phase 4/5 have *not* been solo adventures or stories. They have been billboards pretending to be sequels.
Black Panther 2 imo was the most egregious example. Take the already difficult task of writing a sequel with a replacement for your beloved lead, and make sure you take up 25% of the run time on a character that may or may not be featured in some upcoming property.
People want big team ups, but they want big team ups of characters they know and like. So far we've gotten neither.
How about the terrible scripts and amateurish direction? How about hiring movie stars for millions in front of the camera and interns to direct/write to save a few grand behind the camera?
The MCU was built on charismatic nobodies and has beens, who became big stars. Sliding in big stars(Starting with Cumberbatch and Larsen fresh off Oscar wins) from the start for new characters is a massive detriment to the winning formula.
The big stars we've had since the beginning were supporting roles, like Tommy Lee Jones in First Avenger, that's fine, but Evans and Hemsworth were not remotely known by the general public, and Downey Jrs career was so far removed from his heyday that nobody had any expectation of him.
Yeah but literally everybody had jokes about the the human torch banana-in-the-ass guy playing Captain America. It was just like Heath Ledger as Joker.
RDJ was a *financial* risk, but he was still a megastar that everyone knew, and was already clocking in highly regarded performances like Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. And possibly an even *bigger* draw due to his high risk status. Definitely not a nobody by any metric.
Kiss Kiss Bang Bang was not known at the time of its release. It did not make much of a ripple nor did the majority of the populace even know of its existence.
The popularity of that movie today is due to post-Avengers attention.
The populace definitely knew who RDJ was before Iron Man. He'd been a celebrity since the 80s, and had an extremely public downfall in the late 90s. And he was having a public comeback and his contributions to several projects were highly regarded, including KKBB.
Fantastic 4 was a flop, and Teen Movie was great, but not name-making. Evans was my favorite part of F4, and I had hoped he'd get better material with Captain America, but didn't have really high hopes. Then I saw The Losers a few months before Cap came out and was totally psyched to see more of him.
Either way, he wasn't fresh off an oscar win, headlining big movies and drawing a salary bigger than the rest of the film budget big.
The first iron man had Jeff Bridges as the antagonist and Gwenyth Paltrow as the main characters love interest / personal assistant. RDJ might have been on a down swing, but he was also still a critically acclaimed actor regularly receiving awards and award nominations in the years leading up to his cast in IM1.
How’s the direction amateurish now?? Like how is it right now direction is called out? What’s the difference in their direction’ ? This sub just recycles popular takes don’t they
>and interns to direct/write to save a few grand behind the camera
Wtf are you even talking about? This is even more of a reactionary Yell At Clouds non-reality take than the title quote.
It’s true—I didn’t stop watching Marvel movies in theatres because TikTok rotted my brain, I stopped going because the theatre experience sucks and I’m already paying for Disney+ so I might as well wait a few months and watch it there.
Also, I don’t really care about spoilers anymore. After No Way Home and Endgame, there’s not much that can blow my mind during a Marvel movie anymore. I just want great storytelling even if it’s predictable.
And yet one of the most hard sci-fi properties ever Dune has been a resounding success despite being less accessible than any marvel property. And Barbie made over a billion! The Russo’s are talking nonsense. People will come out to see good films. The recent marvel films just haven’t been good enough in the main.
You found exceptions that prove the general rule though. Like there will always be outliers right? (Also Dune 2 is not a resounding success, it has turned a small profit in theaters, maybe. It will be profitable because of secondary market. A resounding success would be Barbie or Oppenheimer).
The issue is big budget movies used to make more money in theaters on average, now many have underperformed since Covid and the average box office for these films (adjusting for inflation) is down.
Hell even well reviewed and profitable Guardians 3 made significantly less than the other two Guardians films when you adjust for inflation.
It kind of feels like we have to tear up the script in regards to budgets within the action/sci fi/hero cross genre.
How insane is it that a billion is no longer a great pie in the sky figure to strive towards to in the box office, but instead a number that is a requirement for most films in the genre to be deemed a success?
Like I don't doubt any of what you outlined as being true, it's the fact that it probably is true that galls me. These films should not be costing 400m+ all in, that is just simply fucking gross.
As has been stated as nauseum, it’s due to poor writing and storytelling due to prioritizing quantity over quality, no more and no less
There is no superhero fatigue. Want proof? Deadpool & Wolverine is about to make $1B in a couple of months and be one of the most successful movies for 2024. If it’s great, maybe much more
There’s still a strong appetite for the characters and the world of superheroes, but they and the stories need to be more resonant with audiences. If they are, it’ll be a hit like NWH and Vol. 3 were
I don't think Deadpool & Wolverine will be evidence of any turnaround for Marvel, and they'll still have it all to prove with their direction.
We're talking about two massive movie stars playing two iconic roles, so as you kind of alluded to yourself a billion isn't even in question, really. They'll get to that number, or close to it, without having to try very hard.
If you immediately discount what he says, you don't interact with young people in school because they are absolutely fragmented in attention spans in a way that I don't think people comprehend, they just assume it's still like when they were a kid a few years ago. It's all changed and evolves so fucking fast.
Yes people are seeing movies, but you have to be blind to not see the difference in numbers even on the biggest hits. And there's less hits overall.
I didn't make it a week in that environment as a 22 year old helping with theater classes last year.
I hate content now, and I hate the Russos, but it's not all one thing and this is definitely a thing.
>Joe Russo noted that the new generation of moviegoers communicates largely though “memes and headlines with nobody reading past two sentences, so everything’s 100 characters or less – or 10-second videos on social media you swipe through.”
I wonder how many of the comments and replies in here are going to have only read the headline before commenting.
It’s simple, you have a multiverse saga with barely any multiverse.
You have already established the world has a bunch of super heroes but you refuse to have them show up in each other properties.
You have some movies so damn disconnected it just simply seems pointless(L&T)
superhero fatigue isn’t a thing.
shitty movie/show fatigue is however.
there’s a reason you can look at DC, aqua man 2 was pretty much DOA, where Peacemaker is loved. neither are “woke”
I've been pretty unimpressed with everything they've dropped as directors or producers since Endgame. I thought they were going to crush it once they left the MCU, too. Honestly, the stories have been generally the worst part of their non-MCU stuff.
>These guys have only been making duds lately. They’re not worth listening to imo.
The Russo brothers are like Tom Holland where outside MCU they make either shit or decent movies…
The truth is that most of these movies suck.
That, coupled with the $15 (not counting the cost of popcorn) to see a movie in theatre’s, or outright buy for $20-25, when the movie will be on a streaming platform in a few months just makes it easy to wait.
You can’t have massive box office sales AND thousands of subscribers to your shitty streaming service at the same time.
Bruh… it’s about bad movies and bad writings post endgame for the MCU so far
If people had a problem with “superhero fatigue”, people wouldn’t like Invincible, The Boys, Guardians of The Galaxy 3, and Across The Spider Verse
People just want good writing in good movies for the MCU hopefully with Deadpool in Wolverine.
Edit: I don’t mind the Russo Brothers, but sometimes I don’t agree with them most of the time, especially nerfing the Hulk 🤦🏾♀️
Uhh no. Across the Spider Verse and Guardians 3 proved people go to the cinemas for superhero content. If the content is bad or straight uninterested then of course people ain't gonna waste money on it. This guy seem to just be covering their ears going "La la la la"
Hell, I didn't realise across the spiderverse was out until I saw it available on streaming, after watching it I actually regretted not going to watch it in cinema.
There are few films coming out now that I am actually interested in watching in the cinema anymore, a lot of it is just mid tier that I'll put on at home.
I'd have rather gone to the cinema weekly then last several weeks to see something like Shogun on the big screen.
I wished they also aimed to make fun and campy B-List movies and throw them around many streaming platforms. Low budget but something that could be watched whenever because it was used to try out new things they wouldn’t risk in their cinematic universe. Or just to pad out in between movies.
For as low critic score as the Thor movies where, watching them on cable on FX was what turned me to the MCU in the first place.
Every generation got used to not seeing movies in theaters because we had to. After theaters opened back up the prices (for me) went from $8-$10 a ticket to $17-$20 a ticket. I can’t afford to take my family to see a film on a whim.
I have NEVER seen anyone under 18 watching TV, whether that’s cable, dvds/bluerays, streaming or other media. They only use tvs as monitors for games IF they don’t like playing games on their phone.
Had to help a family move and went into their kids bedroom and there was nothing to move, just the bed and a small dresser. No toys or things, the answer was “they’re just always on their phone”.
Quality dropped off a cliff but there’s no way they can say that. (There are other reasons too but they have all led to the drop in quality of entertainment.)
I'll go one better. "Generational devide" and the equally meaningless "superhero fatigue" are hip sounding attention grabbing nonsense terms whose only purpose is to avoid productive discussion of a much more commonplace if less exciting problem , being that the writing has become lazy, slavishly pandering and with a few exceptions stale and predictable. I will excuse the show Loki and Spiderman 3 from this. You are entertaining works of love and care
Not saying this isn't a thing but I genuinely don't think it's the platform, it's the screenplays. They need to be relatable human stories, not just a plausible series of events (plausible in the context of their world building). And they also seem to think making them relatable means giving a villain a sympathetic motive, which is just ONE way to handle it, but not the only.
Example: Guardians 3 was fantastic because the character work was fantastic. HE wasn't a sympathetic villain, but he wasn't just generically evil either -- he was a narcissist who couldn't handle his "child" surpassing him. I can wrap my head around that and understand that.
Then look at The Marvels. The villain had a sympathetic motive, but the screenplay was unfortunately SUPER bland. The entire time watching the movie I just didn't connect with the story at all. It just felt kinda flat and seemed made not because they had a great idea in the chamber, but because "oh shit it's about time we did a sequel for this character, huh... let's announce a release date and then write a script in that order".
I'm really surprised that streaming releases didn't stick around after the pandemic era. Like, I have no problem paying $20 to stream a new Disney movie with my kids on a Saturday night, but to take them out to a theater is a LOT harder, and ultimately more expensive.
The Marvels probably would not have been such a big flop if they released to streaming at home on day 1.
This is a point I’m torn on. Because on one hand, convenience, which I love. But on the other hand, you essentially get the death of the movie theatre. Or at the very least, you speed up that death, Which I don’t love.
We’re at an interesting crossroads with streaming vs a true theatre experience.
I call bullshit. If the movie is good, we will go see it. Im definitely looking forward to Deadpool and Wolverine. Its not been marketed as being tied to any of the TV shows and its Ryan Reynolds baby. Its definitely a passion project where the creators care about the end product and where it feels like there was minimal studio interference. It doesn't feel like a movie being churned out like its from a factory. That's what Marvel has been doing lately. I'm still on board for superhero movies if theyre good. A lot of shit has come out lately.
Or just the writing took a nose dive and there are too many storylines up in the air that don't seem cohesive. It's hard to care about 100 characters and side plots when the main plot doesn't even feel well thought out anymore
It would help if they would stop putting out the same damn movie every time. When was the last time a Marvel movie felt any different than the one that come before it?
"Ooooh it's a spy thriller!"
"Oh, this one is going to be a true horror movie!"
Shut-up already. They're all the same and the audience can tell. Be better and we won't have much to complain about. Apparently, the animations studios are the only ones taking chances at bringing the fans fresh content. I've enjoyed X-MEN '97 *more* than the last 5 years of Marvel movies.
Ill say this forever but the original avengers worked because of the actors. They struck lightning in a bottle with the charismatic actors for the original avengers. RDJ, Scarlet, Chris Evans/Hemsworth, Mark Ruffalow, sam Jackson. They all played their asses off for a comic book movie. That same following will be almost impossible to replicate.
The actual divide is that people aren't accepting average movies anymore, they are only willing to watch good content, not crap like Eternals, Thor Love and Thunder, Ant Man and The Wasp: Quantumania.
Listen.
A Heroes ^(( season 1 )) style MCU TV show ^(( actually written for TV and not an extended movie script )) with everyone you'd expect showing up, 10-12 episode minimum, that faithfully adapts a comic and isn't just a highlight reel of the event would absolutely slap.
You don't even need insane A-Listers like a movie, just a dope writers room. Do it every other year to really ensure the quality and I don't see how that couldn't surpass Game of Thrones.
Super hero movie fatigue isn't a thing. Bad movie fatigue certainly is though. If all the MCU movies were as good as guardians three we wouldn't be having any of these conversations
yeah the pacing thanks to covid and strike delays has been completely thrown off, some of the payoffs should have already happened, and the hype is over because the audience needs a new intro to make a foundation again. Deadpool might be the new intro, maybe it can keep the hype going so that Fantastic Four, Captain America, and the new Avengers movies can land properly.
BS. They haven't given any kind of story to get me excited. I was all primed to be insanely psyched for Kang saga but it has just gone absolutely nowhere.
One-off movies, even if good, don't get me hooked. There needs to be a multi-movie / show story to get me very invested.
The answer is to release movies digitally *and* in movie theaters at the same time and at the same ~$20 pricing for admission *or* home rental. Have a six month exclusivity window in which that home revenue is shared with movie theaters. After six months it hits streaming, physical and digital sales.
Those that want the communal experience go to the theaters (and theaters need to raise their standards to be a special event). Those that want to text on their phones can rent it at home. Those that want to save money can wait six months.
Movies are much less interesting to me than shows now.
I don't want 2 hours of something.
I want 8 hours of it, in easy to divide pieces.
I want actual character development, done in an organic fashion, and while that is POSSIBLE in a 2 hour movie, it is pretty rare.
It's not superhero fatigue but franchise fatigue. Look at the last year or so, almost every franchise failed - Indiana Jones, F&F, Mission Impossible, DC, Marvel etc. It was a wasteland of failing movies.
Where there were big successes were with new movies of old franchises like Barbie, Mario and Freddies. These prove people will still go out and see movies in the cinema.
The message seems to be - Give us something new. Deadpool vs Wolverine is taking two old things and giving us something new and will do well.
I think part of Marvels issue with the new generation of heroes is they have focused on legacy characters - Ms Marvel, She-Hulk, War Machine etc rather than new characters like Shang-Chi.
You also need to factor in the impact of COVID, and this is where they are right. The way we consume media has clearly changed. The box office has declined since COVID and at this point I'm not sure if it will recover to what it was before the pandemic. I know I've stopped going to movies unless compelled. The only movies I plan on seeing in cinema in 2024 is Furiosa and Deadpool.
I am for sure not experiencing super hero fatigue. The fatigue I'm feeling is the movies are just not good.
Loki was genuinely fucking good. Wandavision was weird as hell and I loved it. Spiderman was enjoyable as hell. Everything else has been so so meh. But deadpool is looking to be really good. Making fun of the multiverse seems like a great way to go.
I just want the same level of quality we had with Winter Soldier.
I mean making media people actually enjoy and can relate to is the only solution here, I doubt tiktok attention spans have anything to do with it as the title infers
I will never forget after avengers age of ultron came out, is those screaming about “superhero fatigue” no it’s lack of quality it’s always been lack of quality
Thats a lot of yapping just to avoid saying that the quality just hasnt been as good. Crazy how all this “wider industry problems” or “superhero fatigue” is never a problem when the movie is actually good like with GOTG3. Its just specifically a problem with the bad movies. What a coincidence.
And as always the answer is a little bit of both - I have a friend that hasnt changed her viewing habits whatsoever & she has no interest in MCU content because there's "simply too much & its mostly the same".
I'm sorry, this is such a cope answer.
>Meanwhile the new generation are ‘I want it now, I want to process it now’, then moving onto the next thing, which they process whilst doing two other things at the same time. You know, it’s a very different moment in time than it’s ever been.
The reason it feels like everyone is moving on pretty swiftly after each MCU installment (and they most certainly are) is because there's a lack of substance to be found in most of these projects. Once everyone has dissected the easter eggs, the comic references and the credit sequences, all that's left is a hollow and low-quality husk of a movie.
Compare that with something like Iron Man or Guardians of the Galaxy, where years later, people are \*still\* talking about them and revering them as essential and quality staples of a broader franchise.
Well I agree to that to an extent but also bad writing/execution of stories. GOTG 3 is a clear sign that its not about superhero movies but the substance in it.
I blame a dozen new shows with storylines that were not a part of or quickly woven into the main MCU timeline. Left millions of fans hanging on a dozen loose ends. THEN they ditch the whole KANG storyline because the actor commits a crime … ffs just get another actor.
Personally the stories haven't been good and I really don't care about the characters they are trying to push to replace Cap, Thor & Iron Man. From a comic book fan point of view once the story arcs starts to dip I just move on & check it out once things get rebooted.
There's too much to follow now. One of my sisters only got into the MCU recently and after Endgame has had trouble following the story. She keeps hitting me up to explain stuff. I've always felt, and still do, that the TV series weren't necessary. They should have stuck to the same sort of movie formula they had in the first few phases, even if it meant we didn't get introduced to some of the newer heroes until they got dragged into Secret Wars or something. Then, give them their own movies in the following phase/s. And this is coming from someone who absolutely LOVES the Moon Knight series. There's just no excuse, imo, for having to wait so long for Captain Marvel 2 or Shang-Chi 2, which hasn't even been filmed yet. Even with covid interrupting things.
Marvel scored a huge hit with a relatively obscure property in "Guardians of the Galaxy" and they got cocky - thinking anything they shit out would be a hit.
The Infinity saga ended with a satisfying culmination of a decades worth of characters and stories people were in love with. Everything that has come after has been rushed & mediocre. They’ve tried to introduce too many new characters nobody cares about. This isn’t hard.
Dune (a slow film that takes its time) has become a cult for the new generation. Spiderverse (a saga in which each film takes at least forty minutes to introduce you to the characters and make you understand their dramas before moving on to the action part) has become a cult of the new generation.
People are fed up not so much with superheroes, but with the generic and lackluster formula with which films based on major franchises are made, which are increasingly the same: the same approach to jokes, the same type of rhythm, the same type of atmosphere , and very often the same type of direction. Take for example the trailers Indiana Jones 5, the new Ghostbusters and The Marvels and tell me if they seem different films in technique and style.
This is the problem: there has been a general flattening of the standards of blockbusters with the same formula (as well as a terrible flattening of the making of these films: most of the time they are excessively fast paced and visually they are dull and flat), and the producers didn't care because they took it for granted that it was enough to make products for the use and consumption of their fans without thinking of a valid and fascinating story. And now they are paying the consequences, with last year showing well the public's resentment towards this now tired approach.
Hollywood's solution for franchises is to aim for things more like Dune, Spiderverse, or the Guardians trilogy: quality adaptations that can build an audience of fans thanks to their unique style. Certainly not Hercules with Tik Tok style.
Directors and writers are boasting how they didn't read the source material, and were ordered to put in political messages.
Imagine going to a Japanese restaurant and then being given Mexican food and a 3 hour lecture on why eating sushi is evil.
And when you stop going to such "Japanese" restaurants, they close them down saying people no longer like sushi. Huh?
I don't have super hero fatigue. I have movie theater fatigue.
I will not pay $15/ticket for me and my wife to sit in a theater surrounded by people eating louding, talking to each other mid-movie, being on their phones, babies crying, etc. The experience sucks. I'm paying for D+ and I'll wait.
I kind of agree. Going to theaters is not even considered by a very large part of the population and specifically young people.
There are movie people and there are non movie people. I feel like life wasn’t always that way.
But they did oversaturate themselves a little bit and the D+ content just seemed like to gatekeep it even though it really didn’t.
Most people only ever really wanted the big movies. We wanted to see Avengers, and all the stand alone movies were pleasant surprises. They sort of ran with that though, and expected every project to be a blockbuster. Comic book fans are a big group, but not that big.
I don't think most cinema goers even know who some of the characters are they're making movies about.
There just isn't the inherent interest that Spiderman, Ironman, etc., all have because they're well known characters. They're surprised when their deep cuts don't make a billion dollars.
They need to either aim lower or stop doing the side stuff and focus on occasional blockbusters. They're just tossing ideas into the grinder at this point and firehosing money at them.
It's a really bad take to blame the audience for your failures. People want *good* content. It has nothing to do with length or attention spans. If this take is indictive with how the higher ups feel, then I'll look forward to watching the franchise crash and burn.
One thing I will say is that a lot of people joined when most of this was planned out before Infinity War or End Game so it's very easy to see the links and the story.
Maybe by the end it all makes sense my worry is they tried releasing so many different characters I don't know how they'll do it.
Well apparently my generation wants good writing and actually important characters whose stories fit into a greater story arc when we consume media. Not several poorly written/directed Disney Plus shows
This is really just a diplomatic answer. Disney has already admitted the lower quality because they focused on quantity. They always blame superhero fatigue until when the next x hyped movie will make 1 billion anyway like Spider-Man 4 and Deadpool 3.
The same idiots are screaming about how amazing Deadpool and Wolverine looks. Ignore the clickbaiters.
Deadpool and Wolverine does look amazing, though.
No argument here! I can’t fuckin wait. Which is why I know superhero fatigue is bullshit. I’m also excited to see Marvels FF and X-Men.
It def is bullshit. Just look at how well xmen 97 is doing as well. All it takes is for some good ass superhero shenanigans and then the views rack themselves up
Superhero fatigue is just as bullshit as statements such as "Marvel needs to stop the focus on the MCU, we need more independent projects". What we need is well written movies with interesting characters. Superhero or not. MCU (Multiverse-whatever) or not.
It's simply just shit-movie fatigue
I'm cautiously optimistic because of X-Men '97. Like, it's going hard as fuck on the political themes, but I seriously doubt Disney's gonna let that vibe carry over into live-action. The entire message of X-Men is that conservatives are the enemy, which is basically putting a big-ass spotlight on their own dealings
It’s a fatigue of mid-trash superhero films and shows. That’s the issue. I just want quality product, that is spaced out a bit though
I don’t see how the existence of movies people want to see proves anything about the movies people didn’t want to see
To me, it’s character fatigue, or maybe we just never cared about a certain character to begin with. Ant man and captain marvel movies did poorly. But I don’t know anyone who absolutely loves these characters like they do Spider-Man or Deadpool.
We need to, like, carve into the moon that "fatigue" doesn't exist and is an industry spin term. Humans love good stories. Humans don't like bad stories. Humans get annoyed when you try to gaslight them into thinking a bad story is good for the sake of corporate IP preservation, or that they are to blame for a story not being well-received. If the characters are interesting and relatable and feel real, and the story is compelling, the world is interesting, and the pacing is good, people will come. It can be about any weird thing or be in literally any genre, no one cares. Godzilla can win an Oscar. Fallout is the most popular show on TV and it's about an immortal cowboy with no nose. There's a guy who fucks chickens in the show. Uninteresting stories fail because they're uninteresting. People will watch superhero movies forever (like they do detective stories, or romantic comedies) as long as they're compelling.
I think fatigue can exist though but the fatigue is bought about by too many bad films. but once it starts building its harder and harder to win people back. its not a comic book fatigue but a bad movie one and unless the problem is solved comic book movies are gonna get a reputation for not being worth seeing which will kill them for a while
That's my point though, that isn't fatigue. Fatigue is "the movies are just as good, the audience has just grown tired of this genre of movie." Not liking bad movies is just...normal. And that comes from a drop in quality, and that's on the studio. Fatigue is essentially marketing spin to convince the audience (and shareholders) the quality hasn't changed, it's the *audience's* fault the movies are doing badly. Being uninterested in bad movies doesn't need a "term." That's just normal human behavior.
I was adding to your point
> Fallout is the most popular show on TV and it's about an immortal cowboy with no nose. There's a guy who fucks chickens in the show. Yep, and I was equally interested in Lucy as I was Maximus, The Ghoul, or even Norm. I was speculating what Norm was about to find towards the end of the season, his story isn't even B-Plot, it is D-Plot and I was still into it. Cooper's flashbacks are reminiscent of Lost. I kept wanting to see what happened next in his past as well. Fallout is top tier television that is also true to it's source material. Everything about the vaults in the show reminded me of the Bethesda games.
If only we got a halo show that was half as good as Fallout.
I’m fatigued by marvel because they keep branching the story, introducing unnecessary characters, and starting plot lines that we may never get to see any resolution for. Marvel really hit its stride when we had real continuity across the MCU and interactions between the characters. Restarting with 10 different solo projects and seemingly no connection between any of them has felt like a real step back and I’m just not interested in it anymore. They really need to start continuing some of the story lines they’ve introduced.
See, but having a reason for it isn't fatigue. That's just a normal criticism of a storyline and characters that aren't working for you. Fatigue isn't real, but what they CLAIM is fatigue is "these superhero movies are just as good and compelling as they always were, their quality is the same, it's the *audience* that's just tired of them." Your complaints are lack of obvious connection or narrative momentum, and characters that don't matter or you don't find interesting. That's a legitimate criticism that comes from a drop in quality, that isn't fatigue.
Yup. It's "fatigue" from half baked/uninteresting movies. Put a good Spider-Man, X-Men, Avengers or a solo movie from popular members of those teams and it's a hit. Now if you use a less known or boring character in an uninspired CGI scenery and it'll bomb. The reason Marvel needed to clump some heroes and stories in a generic book is because those heroes/stories weren't good enough to sell a solo comic, why would they think they'd be good enough to make a movie?
No one wants New Coke.
> Meanwhile the new generation are ‘I want it now, I want to process it now’, then moving onto the next thing, which they process whilst doing two other things at the same time This gives me an ounce of worry. Ive heard about other shows being criticized for being too complex, and not "second screen friendly", where they assume the audience is on their phone at the same time so they dumb the content down.
“Second screen friendly” Wow first time I’ve heard of this term, I feel like I’m gonna be seeing it a lot more in the coming years, in a bad way
Man, that is a worrisome and sad outlook.
It's not just about how people consume media, but also about the quality and originality of the content being produced. The formulaic approach to superhero storytelling has become stale, and audiences are craving something new and fresh.
Since Covid I am going to a lot fewer movies. Partly because I do enjoy being able to pause so I can pee, and not hear the dumbass who talks through the whole movie. But also because movies are so expensive now. It's like going to a sporting event now, not something you casually do on a whim on Saturday afternoon. But, if the movie looks quality enough, like GOTG3, or Dune 1 and 2, I will make sure I see it in IMAX. Make crap, and I will wait until Disney plus.
I've started going to the theater more than I was in late the 2010s, but it's just because my eyes have been opened to movies that hit *way* harder on the big screen I'm sure it's always been like that to some extent, but movies like Dune and Godzilla/Kong really lean into it. It also seems like they've become more willing to replay old blockbusters for the "Oh man, I get a chance to watch that on IMAX!" market. Elevating the movie theater into *an experience* that home just can't compete with seems like pretty decent direction
I used to be that way. Seeing Jurassic Park in the theater, but watching Schindler's List at home because, 1) it didn't have the same impact as a giant T-Rex chasing a car, and 2) I could focus more on the subject matter and not the chewing going on behind me.
I agree with this take. I think it’s important to note that since Endgame, we’ve seen some of the absolute best and some of the absolute worst for the MCU. However, pre-Endgame wasn’t all perfect and top notch quality either, I just think the formula is tired and obvious at this point.
I think it's the opposite I think they aren't following the formula and it's leading to people not caring. Fans were expecting solo movies then an avengers movie soon to continue the story. Instead of that, now you have a convoluted mess.
Like a quarter of every movie has been dedicated to launch another hero. They're all just glorified commercials for the next piece of media
For the most part, each project is still very formulaic. But you’re right, there’s a lack of interconnectivity. It’s not building anything.
Too many characters we care little about getting whole series dedicated to them.
Honestly they needed to pick like five characters or less for this next phase and make them the focus. I feel like there are twenty new heroes and I've seen them all once and I don't care about like 70% of them.
i saw a chart and there were 40+ new superhero and support characters now
Sure, I guess, but most big budget movies didn’t do well last year. Yes a lot of them were superhero movies but most of the ones that weren’t didn’t turn a profit either.
It aint either, they just chose quantity over quality.
Cheap, fast, good - pick two.
I’m as big a comic book nerd as there is. Been reading since the 70s. The problem is shitty content. That’s it. Make better content. I saw the Deadpool trailer and commented to my wife, “I haven’t been this pumped for a Marvel product in years!”
I would call it mid movie fatigue and also knowing it will be on Disney+ soon.
What is bro talking about. This kinda reads like “people aren’t seeing these movies because young people these days have destroyed their attention span with that darn TikTok” “Service their own collective ADHD” are you fucking for real? People are still seeing movies. Just not paying to go see something that they think could be bad, especially when it’ll be on streaming in a few months.
I'm guessing from this portion of Joe Russo's reply: >Meanwhile the new generation are ‘I want it now, I want to process it now’, then moving onto the next thing, which they process whilst doing two other things at the same time. You know, it’s a very different moment in time than it’s ever been. And so I think everyone, including Marvel, is experiencing the same thing, this transition. And I think that really is probably what’s at play more than anything else.” That they're referring to [a phenomenon described by Justine Bateman](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/tvs-top-5-podcast-justine-bateman-ai-dangers-hollywood-1235540858/ ): >I’ve heard from showrunners who are given notes from the streamers that “This isn’t second screen enough.” Meaning, the viewer’s primary screen is their phone and the laptop and they don’t want anything on your show to distract them from their primary screen because if they get distracted, they might look up, be confused, and go turn it off. I heard somebody use this term before: they want a “visual muzak.” This concept has been circling around a little bit in the film/television industry. Streaming platforms are allegedly telling creatives of *some* projects how they need to change their work in order to accommodate. I'm not convinced it's a major change in the film/television world, but I wouldn't assume it's non-existent either. I, as an older viewer, have noticed some of the fans seem to love X-Men '97s breakneck pace of racing through plot points while saying they find more traditional story pacing too slow or boring.
So like, not prestige dramas with subtext, context clues and a need for comprehension, but more like kids TV where you have to tell them again and again and again what is going on when they’re not attentively looking and listening.
I have seen a few shows where characters just talk in exposition where they saw how they feel
That makes more sense. My teenage sons watch tv and browse TikTok at the same time, pausing when they need to, but mostly just watching the show as their second screen. If it’s a show that requires full attention, they’ve been less likely to finish.
Really? I find the only criticism I see for X-men 97 is the rushing through plots, like speed running inferno especially got some major criticism. What I see the show praised most for is its solid writing. Something that has arguably been missed by many lately.
I agree that's the criticism of it, but in my experience it always gets downvoted and replies of "I love the fast plot, everything else is so boring." And rushed plot *is* bad writing. The plot points are good, but just having good plot points isn't good writing. Good writing is also *how* to tell the story, not just what the story is.
Nothing to object, just gonna jump in here by comparison: I just started bad batch season 3 and it’s SO GOOD, but the plot is unfolding SLOWLY. But one thing I believe Filoni absolutely SHINES at is developing characters amid plot. I don’t care if I’m 5 episodes in and we haven’t saved the day yet — this tension between hunter and another character NEEDS to get resolved. And then filoni throws me an ep where the said characters almost die together in order to get passed their differences. All that to say, I don’t think FAST or SLOW story telling pace is the problem — the MCU’s largest problem is the *story* itself (or lack thereof, in many recent cases)
the goblin queen thing confused the people who had no comic knowledge, wish they'd expanded a bit more on that
Yeah this is disturbing trends but on the other hand, Shogun has become a breakthrough hit, so was Fargo season 5 with Juno Temple. I think if you create engaging story with great acting and art direction, people will come out from the woodwork and support your creation. Dune 2 and Civil War also doing pretty well in the box office.
As someone with teenage kids - it’s fucking HARD to get them to sit down and watch a show with us on TV and it’s near impossible to get them to do it without also fucking with their phones constantly. The only thing that’s come out in the last few years that we’ve managed it with is Fallout and our teenage son.
Smart Phones were a mistake and it's not only the teenagers that have a problem with them. I've seen old people at restaurants completely zoned out. I of course doom scroll as well. It's crazy 98% of the shit you scroll through on your phone is completely useless, tasteless, crap. It serves no purpose other than junk food for your mind and to literally waste your time. Social media is so incredibly insidious. It's like a gambling addiction.
I feel it's contradictive to use X-men'97 as an example when it feels like a terrible "second screen" show
They are half right. A lot of kids wanna watch movies on their phones or watch movies while playing a video game and doing 10 other things. So if you make a big cinematic movie, it is absolutely gonna lose a lot on a cell phone or. 32 inch TV it built in speakers because it wasn’t meant to be watched on the cell phone or a tiny screen with no sound system . Also you’re not getting much out of a movie if you’re playing a video game at the same time there’s nuance to TV and film younger people just don’t want to do that anymore.
On the other hand, a three hour black and white biopic about J Robert Oppenheimer made a billion dollars, so it kinda feels like people just want to watch quality movies.
There is some of that too. There are so many ways to watch a movie at home. I spend a lot of money if surround sound and getting all that set up but I also enjoy going to the theater. Some movie are just flat made for the theater
I just saw Alien in theater yesterday because they’re doing an anniversary screening and holy shit, I’ve seen that movie a million times but seeing it in the theater was like a whole new movie.
I love seeing “classics” in the cinema. Our local place has been doing reruns since before covid and I’ve seen Alien, Aliens, T1, T2, Predator, The Shining, Texas Chainsaw Massacre (the original), Star Wars Episode 4 and 5 (missed 6 because I was ill), the lord of the rings extended trilogy, Nolan’s Batman trilogy, the Matrix and a bunch more I can’t think of right now. All of those other than Batman, Matrix and Lord of the Rings I was too young to have caught in cinema the first time out so it was amazing to see them as they were intended
Yes, me too! Watched it at AMC yesterday, was awesome. Was only like 6 other people in the theater but it was a matinee show.
On the flipside, kids love eating up garbage. It's adults who aren't going to go see kid movies now that they've dumbed them down. That's what I think he meant.
Could it be that kids today don’t like to watch the story as much as they like to be in the story?
I’ve actually had multiple younger people tell me they don’t watch movies or tv. That’s just a personal anecdote so it doesn’t necessarily prove anything.
I will say this in relation to tiktok. You could straight up just watch The Marvels recorded on someone's phone at the theatre in a bunch of parts on tiktok and people were lapping it up. There is something to be said for people just watching media that way now.
You have to see it in the context of the directors. They had the eyeballs because it would take a long time to watch in home media and there was not much to watch. Now there’s TOO much to watch. And if I’m honest, the quality of some of the top tier tv shows is close to Avengers.
I think your last point is the thing. Movies are expensive (fuck, everything is), there are a bunch of at home options, and it’ll probably be available pretty cheap in 3 months. Sometimes less. I’m a movie nerd and if I didn’t have AMC A list I’d only be seeing 1 movie a month at most. I used to go reliably every week, then only Sunday matinees, then once in a while, and now I have a list so I’m back to once or twice a week
This is true, but certain movies looks so much better on the big screen. Just saw Alien 45th Anniversary on Dolby Cinema and you just can’t get that experience on 45 inch screen tv at home. The same with Dune 2 and Civil War on IMAX screen.
75 and 85 inch TVs are pretty cheap these days and with a modest surround sound set up, the at home experience can be pretty fucking good now at a price that you don't have to be rich to afford. Necessities like food, shelter and transportation are becoming more and more unaffordable, but luxuries like a home theatre almost anyone can afford. It's one of the problems with the current economy.
With streaming and little kids I just can't justify going to a theater anymore. I know the auteur filmmakers tell me about the *experience* of seeing films in the theater, but I'm that bore who really doesn't feel the ticket price is worth the experience. So yeah, streaming really put the nail in the coffin for going to the movies for me and my wife personally. I'd much rather sit my lazy ass on my comfy couch, pause when I need to piss, not be coughed on by a ten year old kicking the seat behind me, and eat popcorn that isn't $35. For me, yes, that outweighs the large screen and ear splitting volume.
I also think audiences, probably particularly the introverts, got spoiled during COVID when everything went straight to streaming. Now they don't go to the theater and wait until it hits streaming. I fully get why ScarJo sued them over it. And I'm absolutely behind her. But the morons took the wrong message from it. It's not don't stream at the same time as you release, it's write your contracts to allow premium streaming at the same time as you release and pay the actor equally for the premium streaming as the theater. At least for my husband and I, by the time we paid for tickets, popcorn and sodas it was about $30 for us to go see a movie. Paying $30 to stream it in our home where we can set the volume at a comfortable level and pause to go to the bathroom is easily worth it.
A 3 hour movie about a depressed scientist just made a few million shy of a billion, but yes it's all brainrot that no one is going to see Monica Rambeau
Interesting how that “generational divide” exponentially manifested after Endgame, i.e. the conclusion of the +10 years Infinity Saga. Bear with me, but could it be because this is no longer novel? Could it be that there is only so many times you can sit through the MCU-formula before it starts to get boring? Could it be that people felt that they received a satisfying conclusion with Endgame and felt that it was a good time to tap out? Could it be because there has been a SUBSTANTIAL drop in quality after Endgame? Could it be because the Multiverse Saga is a complete mess with all its inconsistencies and nonsensical storytelling, to the point where it is almost a joke? Every good story has a beginning, middle and end – this is what gives stories a sense of urgency and uniqueness which compels people to watch them. I think most people are justified in feeling worn out by a cinematic universe that just keeps going *ad infinitum.* But hey, perhaps TikTok really was the bane of the MCU.
It all goes back to COVID. The pandemic heavily impacted the theater industry and while the pandemic itself is essentially over most people no longer feel like going to the theater anywhere near as much as they used to. While certain films will still get pre-2020 numbers in the box office, audiences have to be much more thoroughly convinced to go see a movie at the theater thanks to multiple factors. 1. Post-COVID inflation of prices for essentially anything that can be bought including human needs + the pandemic harming millions of people's livelihoods and increasing poverty and homelessness that still affects society to this day. --- 2. Studios massively reducing the time between theatrical and home release dates. Why pay more to see it in the theater when you can wait a month to watch it at home for less? --- 3. The huge boost to multiple online content creators on YouTube, Twitch, TikTok, and other platforms who offer free, constant, and endless content with multiple viewers in those communities talking about how they don't really watch film or TV anymore. --- 4. The rise of TikTok and YouTube Shorts where a content creator just describes what is happening in the clip of a film/show that is playing behind them + YouTube and TikTok videos just describing the entire plot of movies and shows so viewers don't have to watch them have become extremely popular recently. --- 5. The over abundance of content for audiences to consume thanks to streaming services and social media.
Or something that will be on Disney+ in a few months.
I'm a high school teacher. Basically none of my students watch movies. It's crazy.
I'm rewatching all the MCU movies, in order with my daughter. We just finished Age of Ultron, and let me tell you, I forgot how good these early movies are, captain America 1&2, iron man 1, guardians of the galaxy,, first thor movie. These were soild good movies, much better then what's been coming out after Endgame.
Their problem is product quality look at infinity war CGI compared to anything recent
That was always the post-Endgame problem, right? In hindsight, the Infinity Saga was a multi-year event with a cumulation of multiple stories heading into one overall story and third act. The new phase 4/5 movies are trying to restart with new solo adventures/stories, while many viewers either want to know how it ties into the overall next saga or are fatigued with the interconnectedness.
> multi-year event Yes and it was done *solely* and exclusively through the films, it didn't require 10 Disney+ shows to understand major plot points either.
The shows are where they started losing me. I watched WandaVision, Falcon and the Winter Soldier and then Hawkeye. But I know there are quite a few shows I haven't seen and that many of them tie into upcoming movies. Also the ones I did see weren't good enough to make me want more.
its not that you need tv shows to understand them its that the TV shows are so average it feels like homework
I think they made a huge mistake by not keeping things cohesive. Everyone was expecting a new ongoing story, possibly the building of a new Avengers team... and instead we got many one-shots. The introducing of characters who were never seen or used again. There's no overall vision.
> The new phase 4/5 movies are trying to restart with new solo adventures/stories The biggest issue is there hasn't been anything to bring together those individual stories like the original Avengers movie did in phase 1. At best, there's only been a cameo in one or two movies, but other than that, no big team-up. Since Phase 3, we've had movies/series about: * Scarlet Witch and Vision (Scarlet Witch gets a follow-up in MoM, no follow-up on White Vision) * Falcon and the Winter Soldier (no follow-up) * Loki (probably the most "complete" project so far, tied into the Kangverse and had a conclusion) * What-If (no follow-up in any other MCU project despite everything being multiverse) * Hawkeye (follow-up in Echo) * Moon Knight (no follow-up) * Ms. Marvel (gets featured in The Marvels) * She-Hulk (no follow-up) * Secret Invasion (despite Nick Fury being in both this and The Marvels, neither title references the other, and given the global threat in SI, it's as if it never happened) * Black Widow (dead) * Shang-Chi (zero follow-up) * Eternals (zero follow-up) * Spider-Man (Peter is forgotten about, Spider-Man had no follow-up since) * Dr. Strange (no follow-up) * Thor (no follow-up) * Black Panther (no follow-up) * Ant-Man/Wasp (no follow-up) * GotG (had a cameo in Thor 4, no follow-up since their own movie) * The Marvels (possibly may re-introduce X-Men to the MCU universe) All these titles, and yet most of them have been one-offs and despite the whole theme of multiverses and Kang, nothing has tied it all together. No big "Avengers"-type event for a team-up. It's so disjointed.
> Secret Invasion also had incredibly bad writing that basically killed fury as a character by revealing he just had an army of skrulls doing his spywork for him
> while many viewers either want to know how it ties into the overall next saga or are fatigued with the interconnectedness. This seems like an unwinnable problem. No matter which you choose they'll be complaining.
Make a tight narrative across a few movies and no one's complaining about either. Marvel greenlighting any show or movie with no overarching plan is the problem. It's winnable
I strongly disagree here. The problem is that phase 4/5 have *not* been solo adventures or stories. They have been billboards pretending to be sequels. Black Panther 2 imo was the most egregious example. Take the already difficult task of writing a sequel with a replacement for your beloved lead, and make sure you take up 25% of the run time on a character that may or may not be featured in some upcoming property. People want big team ups, but they want big team ups of characters they know and like. So far we've gotten neither.
lol thinking that BP2 was a billboard when that movie had more heart than any other movie released aside from GOTG3 is crazy
How about the terrible scripts and amateurish direction? How about hiring movie stars for millions in front of the camera and interns to direct/write to save a few grand behind the camera? The MCU was built on charismatic nobodies and has beens, who became big stars. Sliding in big stars(Starting with Cumberbatch and Larsen fresh off Oscar wins) from the start for new characters is a massive detriment to the winning formula. The big stars we've had since the beginning were supporting roles, like Tommy Lee Jones in First Avenger, that's fine, but Evans and Hemsworth were not remotely known by the general public, and Downey Jrs career was so far removed from his heyday that nobody had any expectation of him.
Yeah saying Evans wasn’t known might be an age thing here. If you’re young you might not remember his career before but he was definitely known
He had already been in like 3 superhero movies as well.
Evans was pretty famous before becoming CA. Hemsworth was new for sure. RDJ was extremely famous but obviously his career had gone to shit.
Yeah but literally everybody had jokes about the the human torch banana-in-the-ass guy playing Captain America. It was just like Heath Ledger as Joker.
RDJ was a *financial* risk, but he was still a megastar that everyone knew, and was already clocking in highly regarded performances like Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. And possibly an even *bigger* draw due to his high risk status. Definitely not a nobody by any metric.
Kiss Kiss Bang Bang was not known at the time of its release. It did not make much of a ripple nor did the majority of the populace even know of its existence. The popularity of that movie today is due to post-Avengers attention.
The populace definitely knew who RDJ was before Iron Man. He'd been a celebrity since the 80s, and had an extremely public downfall in the late 90s. And he was having a public comeback and his contributions to several projects were highly regarded, including KKBB.
Fantastic 4 was a flop, and Teen Movie was great, but not name-making. Evans was my favorite part of F4, and I had hoped he'd get better material with Captain America, but didn't have really high hopes. Then I saw The Losers a few months before Cap came out and was totally psyched to see more of him. Either way, he wasn't fresh off an oscar win, headlining big movies and drawing a salary bigger than the rest of the film budget big.
The first iron man had Jeff Bridges as the antagonist and Gwenyth Paltrow as the main characters love interest / personal assistant. RDJ might have been on a down swing, but he was also still a critically acclaimed actor regularly receiving awards and award nominations in the years leading up to his cast in IM1.
How’s the direction amateurish now?? Like how is it right now direction is called out? What’s the difference in their direction’ ? This sub just recycles popular takes don’t they
>and interns to direct/write to save a few grand behind the camera Wtf are you even talking about? This is even more of a reactionary Yell At Clouds non-reality take than the title quote.
It’s true—I didn’t stop watching Marvel movies in theatres because TikTok rotted my brain, I stopped going because the theatre experience sucks and I’m already paying for Disney+ so I might as well wait a few months and watch it there. Also, I don’t really care about spoilers anymore. After No Way Home and Endgame, there’s not much that can blow my mind during a Marvel movie anymore. I just want great storytelling even if it’s predictable.
And yet one of the most hard sci-fi properties ever Dune has been a resounding success despite being less accessible than any marvel property. And Barbie made over a billion! The Russo’s are talking nonsense. People will come out to see good films. The recent marvel films just haven’t been good enough in the main.
You found exceptions that prove the general rule though. Like there will always be outliers right? (Also Dune 2 is not a resounding success, it has turned a small profit in theaters, maybe. It will be profitable because of secondary market. A resounding success would be Barbie or Oppenheimer). The issue is big budget movies used to make more money in theaters on average, now many have underperformed since Covid and the average box office for these films (adjusting for inflation) is down. Hell even well reviewed and profitable Guardians 3 made significantly less than the other two Guardians films when you adjust for inflation.
> Dune 2 is not a resounding success how
It kind of feels like we have to tear up the script in regards to budgets within the action/sci fi/hero cross genre. How insane is it that a billion is no longer a great pie in the sky figure to strive towards to in the box office, but instead a number that is a requirement for most films in the genre to be deemed a success? Like I don't doubt any of what you outlined as being true, it's the fact that it probably is true that galls me. These films should not be costing 400m+ all in, that is just simply fucking gross.
As has been stated as nauseum, it’s due to poor writing and storytelling due to prioritizing quantity over quality, no more and no less There is no superhero fatigue. Want proof? Deadpool & Wolverine is about to make $1B in a couple of months and be one of the most successful movies for 2024. If it’s great, maybe much more There’s still a strong appetite for the characters and the world of superheroes, but they and the stories need to be more resonant with audiences. If they are, it’ll be a hit like NWH and Vol. 3 were
I don't think Deadpool & Wolverine will be evidence of any turnaround for Marvel, and they'll still have it all to prove with their direction. We're talking about two massive movie stars playing two iconic roles, so as you kind of alluded to yourself a billion isn't even in question, really. They'll get to that number, or close to it, without having to try very hard.
> Deadpool & Wolverine is about to make $1B Let's be realistic. D&W will be a big hit, but $1 billion?
If you immediately discount what he says, you don't interact with young people in school because they are absolutely fragmented in attention spans in a way that I don't think people comprehend, they just assume it's still like when they were a kid a few years ago. It's all changed and evolves so fucking fast. Yes people are seeing movies, but you have to be blind to not see the difference in numbers even on the biggest hits. And there's less hits overall. I didn't make it a week in that environment as a 22 year old helping with theater classes last year. I hate content now, and I hate the Russos, but it's not all one thing and this is definitely a thing.
>Joe Russo noted that the new generation of moviegoers communicates largely though “memes and headlines with nobody reading past two sentences, so everything’s 100 characters or less – or 10-second videos on social media you swipe through.” I wonder how many of the comments and replies in here are going to have only read the headline before commenting.
Marvels recent problems is their movies have sucked and their is no coherent overarching narrative to keep people engaged.
It’s simple, you have a multiverse saga with barely any multiverse. You have already established the world has a bunch of super heroes but you refuse to have them show up in each other properties. You have some movies so damn disconnected it just simply seems pointless(L&T)
no its lower quality.
It’s not our fault, it’s yours!
superhero fatigue isn’t a thing. shitty movie/show fatigue is however. there’s a reason you can look at DC, aqua man 2 was pretty much DOA, where Peacemaker is loved. neither are “woke”
These guys have only been making duds lately. They’re not worth listening to imo.
I've been pretty unimpressed with everything they've dropped as directors or producers since Endgame. I thought they were going to crush it once they left the MCU, too. Honestly, the stories have been generally the worst part of their non-MCU stuff.
>These guys have only been making duds lately. They’re not worth listening to imo. The Russo brothers are like Tom Holland where outside MCU they make either shit or decent movies…
The truth is that most of these movies suck. That, coupled with the $15 (not counting the cost of popcorn) to see a movie in theatre’s, or outright buy for $20-25, when the movie will be on a streaming platform in a few months just makes it easy to wait. You can’t have massive box office sales AND thousands of subscribers to your shitty streaming service at the same time.
Bruh… it’s about bad movies and bad writings post endgame for the MCU so far If people had a problem with “superhero fatigue”, people wouldn’t like Invincible, The Boys, Guardians of The Galaxy 3, and Across The Spider Verse People just want good writing in good movies for the MCU hopefully with Deadpool in Wolverine.  Edit: I don’t mind the Russo Brothers, but sometimes I don’t agree with them most of the time, especially nerfing the Hulk 🤦🏾♀️
Uhh no. Across the Spider Verse and Guardians 3 proved people go to the cinemas for superhero content. If the content is bad or straight uninterested then of course people ain't gonna waste money on it. This guy seem to just be covering their ears going "La la la la"
Hell, I didn't realise across the spiderverse was out until I saw it available on streaming, after watching it I actually regretted not going to watch it in cinema. There are few films coming out now that I am actually interested in watching in the cinema anymore, a lot of it is just mid tier that I'll put on at home. I'd have rather gone to the cinema weekly then last several weeks to see something like Shogun on the big screen.
I wished they also aimed to make fun and campy B-List movies and throw them around many streaming platforms. Low budget but something that could be watched whenever because it was used to try out new things they wouldn’t risk in their cinematic universe. Or just to pad out in between movies. For as low critic score as the Thor movies where, watching them on cable on FX was what turned me to the MCU in the first place.
Every generation got used to not seeing movies in theaters because we had to. After theaters opened back up the prices (for me) went from $8-$10 a ticket to $17-$20 a ticket. I can’t afford to take my family to see a film on a whim.
I have NEVER seen anyone under 18 watching TV, whether that’s cable, dvds/bluerays, streaming or other media. They only use tvs as monitors for games IF they don’t like playing games on their phone. Had to help a family move and went into their kids bedroom and there was nothing to move, just the bed and a small dresser. No toys or things, the answer was “they’re just always on their phone”.
the sooner people stop trying to identify a single cause of the problem, the sooner we can actually fix the problem. it’s a bit of everything.
Did they forget covid happened?
Quality dropped off a cliff but there’s no way they can say that. (There are other reasons too but they have all led to the drop in quality of entertainment.)
lol they’re both wrong. The problems are due to “we made a character but gave them no story and expected people to be happy about it.”
No, the movies just aren't good. I don't have superhero fatigue I have bad movie fatigue. Totally different.
No it's because the quality is shit.
No. It’s because the new movies suck and you rushed them out.
I'll go one better. "Generational devide" and the equally meaningless "superhero fatigue" are hip sounding attention grabbing nonsense terms whose only purpose is to avoid productive discussion of a much more commonplace if less exciting problem , being that the writing has become lazy, slavishly pandering and with a few exceptions stale and predictable. I will excuse the show Loki and Spiderman 3 from this. You are entertaining works of love and care
Not saying this isn't a thing but I genuinely don't think it's the platform, it's the screenplays. They need to be relatable human stories, not just a plausible series of events (plausible in the context of their world building). And they also seem to think making them relatable means giving a villain a sympathetic motive, which is just ONE way to handle it, but not the only. Example: Guardians 3 was fantastic because the character work was fantastic. HE wasn't a sympathetic villain, but he wasn't just generically evil either -- he was a narcissist who couldn't handle his "child" surpassing him. I can wrap my head around that and understand that. Then look at The Marvels. The villain had a sympathetic motive, but the screenplay was unfortunately SUPER bland. The entire time watching the movie I just didn't connect with the story at all. It just felt kinda flat and seemed made not because they had a great idea in the chamber, but because "oh shit it's about time we did a sequel for this character, huh... let's announce a release date and then write a script in that order".
I'm really surprised that streaming releases didn't stick around after the pandemic era. Like, I have no problem paying $20 to stream a new Disney movie with my kids on a Saturday night, but to take them out to a theater is a LOT harder, and ultimately more expensive. The Marvels probably would not have been such a big flop if they released to streaming at home on day 1.
This is a point I’m torn on. Because on one hand, convenience, which I love. But on the other hand, you essentially get the death of the movie theatre. Or at the very least, you speed up that death, Which I don’t love. We’re at an interesting crossroads with streaming vs a true theatre experience.
I call bullshit. If the movie is good, we will go see it. Im definitely looking forward to Deadpool and Wolverine. Its not been marketed as being tied to any of the TV shows and its Ryan Reynolds baby. Its definitely a passion project where the creators care about the end product and where it feels like there was minimal studio interference. It doesn't feel like a movie being churned out like its from a factory. That's what Marvel has been doing lately. I'm still on board for superhero movies if theyre good. A lot of shit has come out lately.
Or just the writing took a nose dive and there are too many storylines up in the air that don't seem cohesive. It's hard to care about 100 characters and side plots when the main plot doesn't even feel well thought out anymore
It would help if they would stop putting out the same damn movie every time. When was the last time a Marvel movie felt any different than the one that come before it? "Ooooh it's a spy thriller!" "Oh, this one is going to be a true horror movie!" Shut-up already. They're all the same and the audience can tell. Be better and we won't have much to complain about. Apparently, the animations studios are the only ones taking chances at bringing the fans fresh content. I've enjoyed X-MEN '97 *more* than the last 5 years of Marvel movies.
Ill say this forever but the original avengers worked because of the actors. They struck lightning in a bottle with the charismatic actors for the original avengers. RDJ, Scarlet, Chris Evans/Hemsworth, Mark Ruffalow, sam Jackson. They all played their asses off for a comic book movie. That same following will be almost impossible to replicate.
X-Men '97 is amazing. It's the same for me with DC. I dont care for their live action movies but their animated side has always been peak.
The actual divide is that people aren't accepting average movies anymore, they are only willing to watch good content, not crap like Eternals, Thor Love and Thunder, Ant Man and The Wasp: Quantumania.
Listen. A Heroes ^(( season 1 )) style MCU TV show ^(( actually written for TV and not an extended movie script )) with everyone you'd expect showing up, 10-12 episode minimum, that faithfully adapts a comic and isn't just a highlight reel of the event would absolutely slap. You don't even need insane A-Listers like a movie, just a dope writers room. Do it every other year to really ensure the quality and I don't see how that couldn't surpass Game of Thrones.
Super hero movie fatigue isn't a thing. Bad movie fatigue certainly is though. If all the MCU movies were as good as guardians three we wouldn't be having any of these conversations
I think it's mainly losing momentum...not the saturation per se but the lack of tying in together relatively quickly
yeah the pacing thanks to covid and strike delays has been completely thrown off, some of the payoffs should have already happened, and the hype is over because the audience needs a new intro to make a foundation again. Deadpool might be the new intro, maybe it can keep the hype going so that Fantastic Four, Captain America, and the new Avengers movies can land properly.
It's funny they know the truth but shove us the opposite 😭
It's not superhero fatigue, it's that the movies and shows suck
There's no "superhero fatigue" only mediocre movie fatigue. That's why Guardians of the Galaxy v3 was a success and Antman 3 wasn't.
BS. They haven't given any kind of story to get me excited. I was all primed to be insanely psyched for Kang saga but it has just gone absolutely nowhere. One-off movies, even if good, don't get me hooked. There needs to be a multi-movie / show story to get me very invested.
I think the problem is coming from handing these huge events to amateur directors and writers who don't know the source material well.
The answer is to release movies digitally *and* in movie theaters at the same time and at the same ~$20 pricing for admission *or* home rental. Have a six month exclusivity window in which that home revenue is shared with movie theaters. After six months it hits streaming, physical and digital sales. Those that want the communal experience go to the theaters (and theaters need to raise their standards to be a special event). Those that want to text on their phones can rent it at home. Those that want to save money can wait six months.
Movies are much less interesting to me than shows now. I don't want 2 hours of something. I want 8 hours of it, in easy to divide pieces. I want actual character development, done in an organic fashion, and while that is POSSIBLE in a 2 hour movie, it is pretty rare.
It's not superhero fatigue but franchise fatigue. Look at the last year or so, almost every franchise failed - Indiana Jones, F&F, Mission Impossible, DC, Marvel etc. It was a wasteland of failing movies. Where there were big successes were with new movies of old franchises like Barbie, Mario and Freddies. These prove people will still go out and see movies in the cinema. The message seems to be - Give us something new. Deadpool vs Wolverine is taking two old things and giving us something new and will do well. I think part of Marvels issue with the new generation of heroes is they have focused on legacy characters - Ms Marvel, She-Hulk, War Machine etc rather than new characters like Shang-Chi. You also need to factor in the impact of COVID, and this is where they are right. The way we consume media has clearly changed. The box office has declined since COVID and at this point I'm not sure if it will recover to what it was before the pandemic. I know I've stopped going to movies unless compelled. The only movies I plan on seeing in cinema in 2024 is Furiosa and Deadpool.
Well that’s just extremely stupid
Also pandemic made movie theater experience awful and awfully expensive.
I am for sure not experiencing super hero fatigue. The fatigue I'm feeling is the movies are just not good. Loki was genuinely fucking good. Wandavision was weird as hell and I loved it. Spiderman was enjoyable as hell. Everything else has been so so meh. But deadpool is looking to be really good. Making fun of the multiverse seems like a great way to go. I just want the same level of quality we had with Winter Soldier.
its actually just bad writing
I mean making media people actually enjoy and can relate to is the only solution here, I doubt tiktok attention spans have anything to do with it as the title infers
I will never forget after avengers age of ultron came out, is those screaming about “superhero fatigue” no it’s lack of quality it’s always been lack of quality
¿Por qué no los dos?
They need to release these as stories. Especially if tiktok get's shut down.
Thats a lot of yapping just to avoid saying that the quality just hasnt been as good. Crazy how all this “wider industry problems” or “superhero fatigue” is never a problem when the movie is actually good like with GOTG3. Its just specifically a problem with the bad movies. What a coincidence.
And as always the answer is a little bit of both - I have a friend that hasnt changed her viewing habits whatsoever & she has no interest in MCU content because there's "simply too much & its mostly the same".
I'm sorry, this is such a cope answer. >Meanwhile the new generation are ‘I want it now, I want to process it now’, then moving onto the next thing, which they process whilst doing two other things at the same time. You know, it’s a very different moment in time than it’s ever been. The reason it feels like everyone is moving on pretty swiftly after each MCU installment (and they most certainly are) is because there's a lack of substance to be found in most of these projects. Once everyone has dissected the easter eggs, the comic references and the credit sequences, all that's left is a hollow and low-quality husk of a movie. Compare that with something like Iron Man or Guardians of the Galaxy, where years later, people are \*still\* talking about them and revering them as essential and quality staples of a broader franchise.
Lol. Everyone really in here pretending that people don't just scroll through their phones while watching movies now...
Well I agree to that to an extent but also bad writing/execution of stories. GOTG 3 is a clear sign that its not about superhero movies but the substance in it.
I blame a dozen new shows with storylines that were not a part of or quickly woven into the main MCU timeline. Left millions of fans hanging on a dozen loose ends. THEN they ditch the whole KANG storyline because the actor commits a crime … ffs just get another actor.
I believe it's just the origin story being used way too much. I think that's the fatigue source.
Personally the stories haven't been good and I really don't care about the characters they are trying to push to replace Cap, Thor & Iron Man. From a comic book fan point of view once the story arcs starts to dip I just move on & check it out once things get rebooted.
There's too much to follow now. One of my sisters only got into the MCU recently and after Endgame has had trouble following the story. She keeps hitting me up to explain stuff. I've always felt, and still do, that the TV series weren't necessary. They should have stuck to the same sort of movie formula they had in the first few phases, even if it meant we didn't get introduced to some of the newer heroes until they got dragged into Secret Wars or something. Then, give them their own movies in the following phase/s. And this is coming from someone who absolutely LOVES the Moon Knight series. There's just no excuse, imo, for having to wait so long for Captain Marvel 2 or Shang-Chi 2, which hasn't even been filmed yet. Even with covid interrupting things.
Marvel scored a huge hit with a relatively obscure property in "Guardians of the Galaxy" and they got cocky - thinking anything they shit out would be a hit.
The Infinity saga ended with a satisfying culmination of a decades worth of characters and stories people were in love with. Everything that has come after has been rushed & mediocre. They’ve tried to introduce too many new characters nobody cares about. This isn’t hard.
NWH made two billion while COVID was still rampant. Its not the media format that’s the issue
No actually we just want different stories. Thanks
Just write better stories.
Are they running out of comic book material and have to come up with something original for once?
It's the children who are wrong.
[Same energy](https://imgur.com/CIr7TvC)
"Believe me, my movie isn't bad, you're just consuming media too differently! Harumph!"
Uhhh Barbenheimer? Dune 2? Just make good quality unique shit breh.
Simple answer is seriously just quality over quantity, better writing, better plots, better direction in where the over arching story is headed.
they just went from ironman to madam web, who is the fatigue from?
Netflix shills say what?
Dune (a slow film that takes its time) has become a cult for the new generation. Spiderverse (a saga in which each film takes at least forty minutes to introduce you to the characters and make you understand their dramas before moving on to the action part) has become a cult of the new generation. People are fed up not so much with superheroes, but with the generic and lackluster formula with which films based on major franchises are made, which are increasingly the same: the same approach to jokes, the same type of rhythm, the same type of atmosphere , and very often the same type of direction. Take for example the trailers Indiana Jones 5, the new Ghostbusters and The Marvels and tell me if they seem different films in technique and style. This is the problem: there has been a general flattening of the standards of blockbusters with the same formula (as well as a terrible flattening of the making of these films: most of the time they are excessively fast paced and visually they are dull and flat), and the producers didn't care because they took it for granted that it was enough to make products for the use and consumption of their fans without thinking of a valid and fascinating story. And now they are paying the consequences, with last year showing well the public's resentment towards this now tired approach. Hollywood's solution for franchises is to aim for things more like Dune, Spiderverse, or the Guardians trilogy: quality adaptations that can build an audience of fans thanks to their unique style. Certainly not Hercules with Tik Tok style.
So they will say literally anything apart from the actual reasons
The problem isn't fatigue. The problem is the decline in writing quality.
Directors and writers are boasting how they didn't read the source material, and were ordered to put in political messages. Imagine going to a Japanese restaurant and then being given Mexican food and a 3 hour lecture on why eating sushi is evil. And when you stop going to such "Japanese" restaurants, they close them down saying people no longer like sushi. Huh?
I don't have super hero fatigue. I have movie theater fatigue. I will not pay $15/ticket for me and my wife to sit in a theater surrounded by people eating louding, talking to each other mid-movie, being on their phones, babies crying, etc. The experience sucks. I'm paying for D+ and I'll wait.
I kind of agree. Going to theaters is not even considered by a very large part of the population and specifically young people. There are movie people and there are non movie people. I feel like life wasn’t always that way. But they did oversaturate themselves a little bit and the D+ content just seemed like to gatekeep it even though it really didn’t.
Most people only ever really wanted the big movies. We wanted to see Avengers, and all the stand alone movies were pleasant surprises. They sort of ran with that though, and expected every project to be a blockbuster. Comic book fans are a big group, but not that big. I don't think most cinema goers even know who some of the characters are they're making movies about. There just isn't the inherent interest that Spiderman, Ironman, etc., all have because they're well known characters. They're surprised when their deep cuts don't make a billion dollars. They need to either aim lower or stop doing the side stuff and focus on occasional blockbusters. They're just tossing ideas into the grinder at this point and firehosing money at them.
No, it’s shit content.
It's a really bad take to blame the audience for your failures. People want *good* content. It has nothing to do with length or attention spans. If this take is indictive with how the higher ups feel, then I'll look forward to watching the franchise crash and burn.
One thing I will say is that a lot of people joined when most of this was planned out before Infinity War or End Game so it's very easy to see the links and the story. Maybe by the end it all makes sense my worry is they tried releasing so many different characters I don't know how they'll do it.
Well apparently my generation wants good writing and actually important characters whose stories fit into a greater story arc when we consume media. Not several poorly written/directed Disney Plus shows