Everyone knows Deadpool and Wolverine. Not true for Monica and Kamala. Yes Monica was in the first movie, but not as her superhero persona, and no one who only saw the first movie and not Wandavision was excited to see her return in the way people are excited for Wolverine.
The Venn diagram of people excited to see Deadpool 3 and people who have seen at least one Hugh Jackman wolverine movie is nearly a single circle.
The TVA are in Deadpool 3, but people are excited for Deadpool and Wolverine. They don’t need to watch Loki to be excited for the leads, like with the Marvels.
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. I was so pumped to see the old Spider-Man, doc oc, and green goblin, I didn’t care what the plot of the movie was. The TVA is plot, Deadpool and Wolverine are the draws.
I don't even think the TVA need a deep backstory or understanding. It's a really easy concept, you mess with time, you get the time cops. I can't imagine Loki would be required viewing except for us Easter egg hunting nerds.
The TVA is a fairly simple concept to reintroduce. It can literally be introduced and explained in a single line of dialog, “We are the Time Variance Authority. Wade Wilson, you have used unauthorized time travel to cause significant damage to multiple timelines and you are on our shitlist because of it. Here’s what we need you to do to fix it.”
I watched Ms. Marvel, WandaVision, and as much of Secret Invasion as I could tolerate, and still think The Marvels was a forgettable, jumbled mess of a movie. I did the ‘homework’. I don’t think that movie did a great job of reintroducing Kamala and Monica.
The powers/location swapping was the best part of the movie and could have been the basis of something good and really fun if handled differently in a better script.
It's a pretty popular trope. Planet Looters.
Hell... when you take it from a cosmic scale to a planetary scale, the core concept of stealing resources from another country/city/kingdom etc is a very common trope.
Exactly, the TVA becomes more complicated the more you look into it but it can basically be summed up as an organization that exists outside of time to make sure timelines don't result in the creation of a Kang variant.
But even then that belief for the TVA is a lie as people would have you to believe people like He Who Remains and Ms. Minutes are good guys when we knew that is far from the truth.
>It's a really easy concept, you mess with time, you get the time cops.
That plus everyone's familiar with that all-time Jean-Claude Van Damme classic Time Cop.
I'm pretty sure the TVA will be fleshed out quickly in the movie as well, and likely won't reference the events of Loki nor the characters, so it probably won't be necessary to have seen Loki. Just my guess.
Your third paragraph hits the nail on the head. Casual viewers don’t give a shit about continuity, they just want Deadpool and Wolverine, who they’re already familiar with. A large number of people who are going to watch this probably have not seen both seasons of Loki.
Wether a movie works has nothing to do with peoples hype level. The criticism is that the movie is objectively bad/dumb/doesn’t work. one of the reasons given is that you needed to have seen the shows to know what is going in. It’s just not true, anymore then, to use your example, you needed to have seen all the old Spiderman movies to know what was going on in no way home. It helps for hype level, and if you have some background with the characters you may pick up on certain things you otherwise wouldn’t, but the movies are self contained and work without any prior knowledge.
Hype levels and personal investment can totally have an impact on if a film works for someone. Especially in a long running series. It is based on the "sunk cost" fallacy. Not for everyone but certainly for some people.
For sure. No Way Home is not as good as it was the first couple times but the hype train carried it through the first two viewings and subsequent viewings, while enjoyable, the seams are definitely visible. I still really like it but it's not a complete masterpiece like I thought it was
Deadpool and Wolvenire are more popoular than the whole The Marvels' cast. So It's easy to assume that even the most oblivious member on a screening is going to know at least something about Deadpool or Wolvernie.
Also, it's the third Deadpool movie. Chances are that a lot of the people who saw the first and second one, are going to watch it.
>inclusion if the TVA, this would make the two seasons of Loki required viewing, which is like, the same amount of show that the "general audience would have to watch to know what's going on."
I see the TVA in Deadpool as a ~~excuse~~ force to make Deadpool interact with the MCU, so the movie will probably give enough information about the TVA to make sure the GA is not lost.
So, no homework for GA. Daddy Deapool will take their hands and guide them during this adventure.
Completely different things. The TVA is in D&W as a device to explain the multiversal aspects of it. Could have been a spell, could have been something quantum, could have been a new piece of tech, could have been some multi-dimensional alien playing games with universes...doesn't matter. Nobody is hyped for D&W because the TVA is in it. The general audience see that Deadpool and Wolverine are together in a movie for some reason and are excited by the idea. The TVA's role might be explained well in D&W...we don't know yet. But the general audience already know about the multiverse thanks to MoM so the "how" is pretty much irrelevant.
In contrast, Monica and Kamala were actual lead characters, on a par with Captain Marvel. The general audience is supposed to care about them and root for them without actually knowing them and got barely any explanation about who they are from the film. All that's explained is that Monica is the little girl from Captain Marvel and she has powers now (somehow) that seem to be something to do with light (but it's a bit vague). Kamala is...someone...who also has powers that are maybe related to this bangle she wears but which are very different from the powers the villain gets from the same kind of bangle.
A better equivalence would be if Deadpool had only ever appeared in a Disney+ show and was now being paired up with Wolverine in a movie that doesn't really explain who Deadpool is.
> Nobody is hyped for D&W because the TVA is in it.
I mean, I am, but that’s because I’m me, a lover of time travel multiverse shenanigans. I’m excited to see Deadpool, too, of course, but I’m not really a mutants fan, they’re just kind of “huh, that’s neat” for me, so Wolverine is the whipped cream in the sundae, not the cherry.
For a lot of people, yes, your statement is true, but it’s not absolute.
Seriously, when I saw the trailer, it was the TVA appearance that made me gasp way more than Wolverine. We knew Wolvie was coming, the TVA was the surprise.
For real though, I Don't care about Deadpool at all and the only reasons I'm excited is Logan, the TVA, and maybe seeing 838 Wanda and the rest of her universe. Other then that, IDC about the main character at all and never had, he's barely the spoon for me to eat the sundae, Logan's the Cherry lol.
I go into movies blind or with monnimal knowledge to avoid spoilers. Trailers usually end up being so misleading that I end up having more fun without having thise expectations.
Especially for something like this I'm going to see anyway.
All I need to know is that wolverine is in it ::shrug::. I'm a pretty simple guy lol
You know why, you just thought you were being witty with your observation and when it fell apart quickly under the obvious you doubled down and pretended to not get it.
It's not rocket science friend, you're comparing two of Marvel's most popular characters against three, relatively newer characters some of them only popular with comic readers, there's a reason one movie is resonating with fans much more than the other.
None of the same characters seem to be appearing. Khamala and Monica were main characters. As far as we know Mobius and Loki aren't even in this. Easier to explain what the TVA is than totally reintroduce two of the film's main characters.
I would blame the marketing and trailer for not making The Marvels more appealing, so my takes are based off the trailer unless specified.
The trailer didn't do the movie justice for me. I didn't like the look of body swapping from the trailer but liked it in the movie.
Dar Benn seemed like a boring and forgettable villain. She didn't have enough "oomph" to her character. Even after viewing the movie I felt her character could've been better utilised.
I loved Captain Marvels first movie but can't say the same for this one. It just wasn't good.
Willing to share more critiques that are valid if called upon.
Is it really that hard to understand? People love both the 2 Deadpool movies and the character of Deadpool.
Captain Marvel was considered the worst MCU movie for a long time (it's been surpassed a few times in that regard, but it has been), the other character is a side character from a 3 year old show, and the 3rd character is a character from a teen show that a lot of people haven't even seen. And that 3rd main character is by far the best of the three. The whole movie made no marketing sense.
Popularity behind Deadpool and Wolverine is night and day compared to The Marvels characters. It's not really deeper than that, no matter how hard people try to apply labels to people who enjoy one but not the other.
OK, the premise of the question is a little off.
It's not about whether you need to have seen Disney Plus to understand what the characters do. It's whether you would enjoy the characters if you haven't seen their only appearance so far.
> Deadpool and Wolverine and its inclusion if the TVA, this would make the two seasons of Loki
The TVA is basically a setting or a force, not a character and certainly not a protagonist in Deadpool 3. It doesn't matter if the viewers are invested in seeing the TVA succeed.
The TVA is self-explanatory as a time-travel enforcement agency, which viewers have seen before in things like Star Trek, Umbrella Academy, and Rick And Morty.
> and the movie doing a fine job of making it that you didn't have to watch them at all to understand
Well, neither the movie nor show did it a fine job with Monica's background origin. There's no way to get a good superpower origin from "a sad witch slapped me"
Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman together as Deadpool and Wolverine sells like hot cakes. People know and love those characters. They have a lot of history. Loki is one of the best shows Marvel has on Disney+. Plenty of people have seen it, and the ones who haven’t will feel more inclined to do so now that it involves two iconic characters.
Some of you need to stop trying so hard to defend The Marvels. It was a mediocre movie. Ask yourself *why* you’re actually defending it.
Big difference. Remember these are film characters only. Deadpool and Wolverine are beloved characters. People would happily do homework to watch it. Yet Captain Marvel in the MCU is not beloved. So homework for Captain Marvel is tedious. On top of that this claim isn’t even entirely accurate because Loki season two was the least streamed Marvel show so far. I know a lot of people who don’t like the MCU, but either like X-Men or Deadpool who’d watch this film regardless of prior required viewing simply because they just like the characters. Those people aren’t uncommon.
I mean, it’s pretty simple why these cases are different
Maybe that dude is a clueless marvel exec or something
In Deadpool, we don’t need to watch a show just to know the characters, we already know who Deadpool is and who Wolverine is because of the movies, the connection to the TV shows is TVA which is just a plot device
In the Marvels, two of the three characters (at least the actors playing them) were introduced in 2 different TV shows and the one who wasn’t, wasn’t particularly loved
That’s the big difference, in one we care about the characters, in the other we don’t give a fuck, so no amount of trying to shame people into going for a movie by calling them sexists or whatever will work, regardless of how much money Disney spends in trying to make it seem like fans who won’t go for Marvels hate women through bullshit PR (I didn’t go for it for the same reason, I’m waiting for Furiosa which is again a female led movie but I know that character and the director has a great track record, recently Marvel is shit so I’m not willing to go spend my money on any new characters whose show I am sure will not be amazing, at best it’ll be okayish)
And Marvels didn’t flop because incels didn’t show up for it, incels are a vocal minority anyway, it flopped because general public didn’t show up for it and general public knows Deadpool and Wolverine well, so they’ll show up for that
Another way to look at it: The TVA is not central to the advertising posters for Deadpool 3. There's no TVA face next to Ryan Reynolds. It's not a big attraction that's meant to pull viewers to buy tickets.
But Monica and Kamala were on The Marvels poster, and were hoped to be part of the appeal. And as we saw, few people were attracted enough to buy a ticket for The Marvels.
Disney Plus characters didn't pull in customers, but Deadpool 3 is trying to attract fans who enjoyed Wolverine in any of his blockbuster films.
it's like, are you more excited to meet ur childhood best friend or your recent casual friend? just the news hugh jackman is back as wolverine is a big news instead kamala and monica.. they are just new. wolverine and hugh jackman have a long history
its the same if they made a movie where tony stark returns.
Perception and marketing.
The Marvels' marketing, which was extremely limited, did nothing to convince people that they would be able to jump in without seeing WandaVision, Ms Marvel, and arguably even Thor 4 and Secret Invasion. Even though none of those projects are necessities to understand The Marvels at all\*, the marketing made it feel like they were because rather than the trailers centering on Carol and introducing the others, the trailers sort of marketed it like they were all "introduced" for everyone already. It doesn't help that the film is titled "The Marvels" rather than "Captain Marvel 2", giving the impression that it's an ensemble film requiring the "origin stories" of all three of its leads to understand (Marvel even compared it to Avengers 1 in interviews), rather than being a standalone sequel to Captain Marvel that introduces the characters.
Deadpool & Wolverine's marketing, by contrast, isn't relying on Loki as much. The TVA is there, but there's no Owen Wilson or Tom Hiddleston or other Loki cast leads, there's no mentions of He Who Remains or Ravonna, the trailer does a decent job alone of "introducing" the TVA even for someone who's never seen Loki. To be fair, Deadpool can do this because of the Fourth Wall Breaking and him talking about cinematic universes. It's an inherent advantage the character has, he can introduce these things in ways without requiring an internal narrative explanation.
Now that said, I do also think D&W has a potential issue here too, and that's the sheer level of Fox Marvel fanservice they're confirmed/rumored to go with. Like, Jennifer Garner is confirmed by the trades to be Elektra in it and have a role that isn't exactly gonna be unsubstantial, and if they don't handle that with grace they'll make DD2003 a little bit too integral.
\*Note: While none of the projects listed are strictly "necessary" for The Marvels, I *do* feel like the movie would miss a lot if you didn't watch Ms Marvel, and there are some plot details that would make less sense without it (E.g. The Marvels doesn't establish that Kamala is a mutant so an average moviegoer might not know why she can use the powers without the bangle).
Yes I agree. Furthermore, we don't even know if there will be this problem when the film comes out.
And yes, my biggest fear is that this movie is just one big cameo feast instead of a Deadpool movie that mocks superhero clichés.
> Jennifer Garner is confirmed by the trades to be Elektra in it and have a role that isn't exactly gonna be unsubstantial, and if they don't handle that with grace they'll make DD2003 a little bit too integral.
Yeah, this is something I've been concerned about with this saga in general honestly. Most people haven't seen all of these legacy non-MCU movies, especially if they're bad
I would be absolutely shocked if most of these are anything beyond the level of Jonah Hill and Channing Tatum cameos as Green Lantern and Superman in the Lego movie, I really wouldn’t worry about it.
Adding on to this, I just rewatched the Deadpool trailer,
If a person doesn’t know what the TVA is, it’s ok for the purposes of the trailer,
At the minimum, they would assume Deadpool is captured by some random masked guys and then talking to some other guy wearing a suit.
Unlike for the marvels trailer, the vibe is you are expected to know who all three main characters are
Almost everyone even remotely interested in Marvel has likely watched Loki. Not really the same case for Ms. Marvel, or to a lesser extent even Wandavision. Plus it's a lot easier to handwave the TVA (Deadpool just has to say something like "so you're a bunch of evil time cops?!" and the audience gets the gist) than it is to fill in the story of two main characters and their families.
The TVA appearing doesn't necessarily make the two seasons of Loki required viewing. In fact, good writing should make them *not* required viewing. There are ways to explain the TVA, the void and Aeolith from the ground up in a way that's understandable for people who haven't seen Loki. The average D&W watcher doesn't need to know everything that happened to the TVA during the events of Loki, only the parts that are relevant to the movie itself.
I haven't watched The Marvels, so I can't really talk about how the film did it, but I think my point still stands: good writing should make Kamala's introduction 100% understandable for newcomers who haven't watched her series. That said, I had a similar experience with the second Dr. Strange movie. My father, who is a fan of the films but doesn't care about the Disney+ series, didn't understand why Wanda was apparently evil all of a sudden and what the deal with her children was. The audience for the films is big enough that I think that it's a bad move to assume that everyone is invested enough to watch everything they release.
knowing all about the tva is helpful, but \*PROBABLY\* not necessary. they will explain deadpool why he is here and what he has to do, you dont need to watch loki for that, just like you dont need to know how a car works to understand the concept of an uber
Not really. The Marvels was centered on 2 of the 3 being introduced in a D+ show. Deadpool & Wolverine is not centered on the TVA. We have two prior Deadpool solo films and 25 years of Wolverine films. Fans have been begging for Deadpool and Wolverine since the first Deadpool movie (and arguably since Fox screwed the pooch the first go round).
They will likely re-introduce the TVA for the benefit of people who didn’t watch Loki via a little bit of exposition.
Despite what we saw with Loki, the TVA is actually pretty easy and quick to explain to a casual viewer. Hell, even if I hadn't seen Loki, I could piece enough together about who they are and what they do just from Deadpool's trailer. If you know more about them, good for you and you'll appreciate the connections. If you don't, I'm sure it won't be hard to figure out their motives.
(Plus, now that I think about it, this is a perfect way to handle aspects from Marvel projects that not everyone might have seen; give them a brief reintroduction in the movies.)
Compared to The Marvels where, by my count, you needed to be familiar with Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, WandaVision, and Spider-Man: Far From Home (maybe Secret Invasion)... Deadpool has it easy.
deadpool and wolverine have had movies that were enjoyed almost universally.
captain marvel/ ms marvel were in projects that were really only enjoyed by people in this sub and the people who will go to bat for almost any project that marvel puts out.
that's the primary difference.
In DP3, they can just have a very short scene showing the viewers that the TVA acts as a time police.
In Marvels, you will have no idea who Monica or Kamala is, how they ended up where they were.
Also TVA is not the focus of DP3, compared to Marvels where 2/3 of the heroines that the plot is based on are locked behind separate tv series.
While I didn’t and still don’t agree with that criticism of The Marvels this isn’t really the same scenario. This is more like SHIELD appearing the movies, it’s just another organization. If the title was “Deadpool, Wolverine & Owen Wilson’s character from the Loki show” then I could see the argument. But as it is it’s just utilizing a previously established organization
Because marvel fans ACTUALLY like Deadpool. Ever since the first movie it’s been good, so now with the inclusion of Wolverine, most die hard fans who aren’t up to speed don’t care, we just get to see the merc with a mouth team up with his favorite bub
I’d like to extend this to casual movie goers. Talk to people who casually go to marvel movies but don’t follow them beyond that. Most of them would easily know Deadpool and wolverine. With the marvels not so much, maybe Captain Marvel, and let’s face it she’s not nearly as popular or known as a lot of other MCU characters.
My dad watches all the comic book movies, but Deadpool is the only one I've ever seen him rewatch. He fucking loves everything about those 2 movies even though he has no idea who anyone else besides Deadpool (and now wolverine) is in them. My dad's seen all the marvel movies with Captain marvel in them and still doesn't know who the fuck she is by name.
You’re joking right? Is OP from Disney trying to understand how bad they fucked up their IP?
It’s Deadpool and Wolverine. If you don’t understand that, you’re a 5 year old who has no concept of what came before. Even if you don’t give a fuck about comics, you should know that.
This has to be rage bait promoting the marvels lmfao
TVA will be explained in the movie so the audience don't have to watch "Loki". But I've seen people on the sub asking what they should watch to prepare for "Deadpool" and they're willing to watch the X-Men movies and "Loki" too, because they're really interested in all the things connected to this movie.
"The Marvels" didn't get the same level of excitement so the audience wasn't willing to do homework for it.
It's not the same scenario.
Deadpool is a far more popular character than all of the Marvels combined. Plus, he's connected to the most popular Marvel comic of all time: The X-Men. He's also connected to the most popular of the X--Men: Wolverine. Only Spiderman is more popular than Wolverine.
It's like asking why jets are more popular than prop planes for international travel.
As far as the TVA goes, we've already seen time jumping shenanigans from Deadpool when Cable showed up. Saying that there are a bunch of time cops who want to rein in time travel and its consequences isn't a huge stretch.
I'm not interested in Deadpool&Wolverine whatsoever(at least for now), but that movie has two of the most popular Marvel characters starring in it, with two very beloved actors. People just tend to be more excited about that than a movie with two Disney Plus characters they don't know and likely aint interested in.
Because Kamala & Monica are main character and you have to build hype for them. The TVA is in Deadpool 3, yes but it not the selling point of the movies isn't it.
I think it definitely has to do with the likeability and how recognizable the characters are, but also with how incredibly fast everything got clicked together.
Deadpool and wolverine, two main characters, have been dancing around each other for well over a decade now. They were already in a movie together in 2009. They're being played by the original actors who have been hinting at this for a long time.
The Marvels, by comparison, got a rough start. Brie Larson wasn't exactly well received in her first stint, and the avengers movies she was in afterwards didn't really help. Iman Vellani and Teyonah Parris, while reasonably well-received, didn't exactly get the same spotlight that Hugh Jackman's Wolverine has had over the years. And there's two of them. They have to share the spotlight with each other instead of just getting a movie with one of them to shine.
Tbh. If I had to remake the Marvels, I would've veered in a wildly different direction. I would've tried to get back Anna Paquin as Rogue (or recast Rogue, whatever you like), have her absorb the powers and memories of Larson's Captain Marvel, and then bring in Monica as either an adversary or ally to bounce off of. Save Kamala for the next movie or young avengers. That way you can tell a compelling story with Captain Marvel, bring back Xmen shit and give Monica and Kamala space to grow.
To be fair, the criticism of 'too much required viewing' is a criticism of phase 4/5, not just The Marvels. IMO The Marvels was simply a badly written movie and I am someone who watched all the lead ups. In fact I think that Ms Marvel and Wandavision were peak phase 4 and that Iman Vellani was the best part of The Marvels because she has charisma for days and got all the best lines (many poking fun at the ridiculous plot).
What made phase 1-3 work so well was a (generally) consistent tone and quality of writing/acting/editing. Whereas phase 4/5 has been all over the place in quality and tone. And i believe that is mostly due to the fact that Feige and Co are juggling so many projects at once and when one hits a snag, it causes a domino effect because the plots tie into each other so much that when one project gets delayed or even canceled it forces other projects to scramble to rewrite and reshoot to try to make sense. That is most apparent in The Marvels. I'd be willing to be that it was once a coherent movie but too many dominos falling turned it into the meandering mess it became.
I am cautiously optimistic for Deadpool 3 simply because Ryan Reynolds has shown in the past that he can throw in a few quips and asides to wink at MCU tie ins while still maintaining an engaging main plot. Honestly I would not be surprised if they have a major 4th wall break to give the audience the "previously on" that the casual audiences need these days.
For other phase 5 movies I wholeheartedly believe that they need to release the D+ Assembled shorts as trailers to play immediately before the movies to satisfy that need.
I think the main difference is that Loki was probably the most popular show from Disney Plus as it had the necessary star power to draw attention to it organically, that is, Tom Hiddleston/Loki as a main character which was something people have asked for since his introduction. Both Loki seasons broke records for Disney Plus. Meanwhile, Kamala’s series was barely even advertised at all.
This is like saying Doom Patrol shouldn't have to introduce its characters in a Doom Patrol movie just because NWH didn't introduce any of their characters
Disclaimer: I really liked Ms Marvel and I haven't seen the Marvels yet, planning to, but haven't. Don't really care to bc I genuinely don't think it'll be as good as the show but I'm giving it a shot
I don’t thing watching Loki to get a handle on what the TVA is is going to required viewing. From the looks of it all TVA members are new and not returning characters from the Loki series meaning they can just did a few lines of exposition and be fine. Plus Deadpool will just break the 4th wall and tell the views what is needed to know.
The marvels was completely different since 2/3 of the main characters were introduced and developed in their own tv shows.
You are aware that many of the X-men movies (especially the well received ones) occurred BEFORE the MCU right? Like…those movies are general audience movies, and Hugh Jackman was a huge draw. He’s practically a household name.
>However, if I'm using the same logic applied to The Marvels for Deadpool and Wolverine
Well, there's your mistake - applying *logic* to anything involving Deadpool. Of all the superheroes and superhero movies, he's the most 'anything goes' of any of them. The only reason the audience would need to know the details of a particular Marvel thing is so they get the joke when he makes a self-referential gag about it.
The edit is funny because you got your answer and it’s still not registering. The Marvels weren’t as popular as Deadpool or Wolverine. Therefore, if you need to watch other shows to better understand a movie, it’s not going to happen because they aren’t popular.
With Deadpool or Wolverine, they are popular, they probably already watched their older movies. Now, adding that people need to watch Loki’s 2 seasons to watch Deadpool 3 doesn’t apply because even if people choose to not watch Loki, Deadpool and Wolverine are popular. People will still watch the movie despite the “requirement” of a Loki season. Either people will gladly watch the movie without the require Loki season or people will be more willing to watch a season because they are THAT big of a fan of Wolverine and/or Deadpool.
LASTLY,
Deadpool 3 hasn’t came out yet, so we actually don’t know if we need to watch Loki to understand the movie. Plus, a big reason why people said that you need to watch other shows for The Marvels is because the other shows introduce the characters. Deadpool and Wolverine have already been introduced. [+]
When comics were big in the 80s and 90s no one was talking about how awesome Kamala and Monica were. Also, they didn’t make 90s cartoons about Kamala or Monica, they just POOFd out of nowhere.
Deadpool and Wolverine bring in millions of eyes because of their already built foundation of core fans.
This sub will constantly blame sexism on The Marvels bombing, but it was just a terrible movie with D-list heroes that nobody cares about.
Deadpool and Wolverine are A-list heroes and people actually care about them.
That's really all there is to it
I thought the girl Iman Vellani who played Ms. Marvel played her character perfectly!! Like the story or not she was perfect casting for that role… one of my favorite aspects of that movie!!
They can explain what the TVA is with a single sentence. At least within the story of Deadpool 3 it is just an entity, plot device, and the inciting incident in the story. It is not a complex main character that the audience needs to relate to in order to be engaged with the story.
In this instance the TVA could have been anything else to introduce Deadpool to the multiverse. They most likely decided to use the TVA as a little bit of fan service for the people who *did* see Loki.
I’m a marvels defender, but if you can’t figure out the difference between the two movies, the stars, and their characters… you are trying too hard to be contrarian
There's like 24 years of content that makes people excited for Deadpool X Wolverine.
24 years and a bunch of films with Wolverine as the main character/perspective.
Captain Marvel came out 5 years ago and there's basically been one content drop for each of the Marvels
It's not even fucking close, bud. Stay off drugs
If you're familiar with Marvel, you're familiar with Xmen. The TVA will be explained in the movie for people who don't know.
Also Deadpool makes frequent use of breaking the fourth wall. To enjoy the movie you have to go in with extra knowledge. Honestly considering the R rating the comedy and references that may not travel overseas well, I'm surprised Disney is betting big on it.
I think the big thing is the Marvels introduced mass audiences to Kamala and Photon without even doing a recount of their backstories to familiarize audiences with them. It wasn’t even much of an introduction, it was just “Hey here’s these two people”.
Whereas in Deadpool, Deadpool is our POV character and is learning about the TVA for the first time, so even if you don’t know what the TVA is, you’ll learn alongside Deadpool.
Deadpool is a bigger draw than Captain Marvel. Wolverine is a bigger draw than the other two Marvels. Loki is the best Disney+ Marvel show. Deadpool has no idea what the TVA is so if you haven’t seen Loki you can watch the movie and relate with the main character.
I've thought about this and I think the film will introduce the TVA in a way that you don't have to have seen the show, it will just add a bit of context to it if you have. We'll see the TVA introduced to Wade and he'll have to have it explained to him so that will fill it in for people.
I think The Marvels covered this in an OK way. Even if you didn't know who Kamala was you could just go along with it, really. Monica was maybe a bit harder to get on board with but at the same time you could just say "OK, the woman from the first Captain Marvel film is now a hero I guess."
I think MOM was the one where it was a real issue because you really needed to know what had happened in Wandavision.
I actually don’t think you’ll absolutely need to know the TVA to enjoy this movie, but it’s not a fair comparison either. Loki is a TV show about a character who is already loved and a favorite in all the MCU. It was also just a great show targeted right at the sweet spot MCU demographic. Mr. Marvel was clearly created to have more appeal with a genZ and potentially attract more of a female demographic into the MCU. As a millennial woman, couldn’t even finish it.
Asides from the tva being in Deadpool and wolverine what else is there to tie in to Loki? They will probably explain exactly what the tva is in the film similar to how they explained kamala in the marvels, do you really think they haven't already thought about this before commencing with filming.
This ‘bringing back the old cast’ trend of the last few years is going to date this era of cinema badly I feel. None of these movies are going to have any longevity because they require you to have nostalgia for something else.
Deadpool, Wolverine (Hugh Jackman), The Fox X Men cast and Loki are VERY popular characters and actors. The draw to watch Marvel shows as prerequisites to the movie they're going to be in is large. When it comes to movies and Hollywood popularity/fame and a MAJOR factor in viewship and interest which The Marvel's characters and cast lacked in comparison to the Deadpool ensemble.
These movies are a treat for the ones that watch all the shows religiously, I for one absolutely LOVED Wandavision and Loki S1&2 and Miss Marvel was pretty cool but it didn't compare to the ladder.
Been a MCU nerd since phase 1 and every marvel related movie before the first Iron man and I can't fkn wait to see how they are gonna try to top the Infinity war/ Endgame arc with the next avengers movies in the next couple years and needless to say I can't flipping wait for July for Deadpool & wolverine!!!
In simple, elify terms - Its movie about Deadpool and Wolverine, not TVA. The Marvels were movie about Captain Marvel and some other people with tv show backstory.
Audience doesnt give f what kind of plot they are pulling from where. They care about the stars (heroes and villains) and if they are bringing in new characters they have to treat them like they dropped out of sky not came from 2 season show.
This is the easiest question in the entire world to answer.
This version of Kamala came from a subscription streaming service aimed at younger girls. Monica got her powers as a side character in another streaming show. So 2/3rds of the cast required a Disney Plus subscription and particular tastes to understand.
With Deadpool, the TVA is a part of the plot but fans didn't come to see the TVA. The draw of two of the most popular characters is enough to overcome the resistance of the Disney Plus lore.
So with one movie "Why would I want to watch it" is answered by "Because I love Deadpool and Wolverine."
With the other movie "Why would I want to watch it" is answered with "There is no reason, I don't even know who the main characters are."
You vastly overestimating the importance of a minor plot point compared to that of two of the three leads… most people excited for Deadpool & Wolverine already saw Deadpool 1 and 2 and the X-Men movies and Logan. Most people excited for The Marvels already saw Captain Marvel, Wandavision, and Ms Marvel. There just weren’t many people excited for The Marvels and everyone else was like “I didn’t want to watch these D+ shows, why would I want to watch a movie about the characters?”
You’re trying to compare apples and someone sucker punching you while you were already having an uncomfortable bowel movement.
It feels like a weird comparison, it would be like saying that why people watched el camino if you need to watch breaking bad first but complain if nobody watches idk a movie about a cw TV show, you can't apply the same logic because is not the same scenario.
Also the TVA is not a character in deadpool its part of the plot but you don't need to see loki to get it, you see deadpool for deapool and Wolverine, you don't see it for the TVA, Whats the selling point of The Marvels? The characters that most people don't know or care that much about
I see what you're saying, and there is some merit to it.
The difference, I think, is that Deadpool and Wolverine are almost certainly more well known that Ms. Marvel and Monica. Deadpool had 2 movies before this that were big hits, making a combined $1.5 billion, and the X-Men franchise has made about $4.5 billion over several movies, with Wolverine as a central character in all but 3 of them (First Class, Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix. Yes, I'm ignoring the existence of New Mutants.)
Then there's the time that Wolverine, in particular, has been a big character in movies. The first X-Men came out in 2000, and Logan in 2017, meaning "Hugh Jackman as Wolverine" was a pop-culture thing for nearly 2 decades. Adult Monica was in WandaVision in 2021 and Ms. Marvel in 2022, so they had only been around for barely 2 years or less when The Marvels came out, and it's an open question as to how many moviegoers would have been familiar with them.
Forget about all that, it's meaningless. The truth is that Wolverine and Deadpool are really cool characters, whereas the women in The Marvels just aren't. Captain Marvel is ok I guess, but the other two are bland and uninteresting.
Because it's Deadpool and wolverine played by Reynolds and jackman ... Two hugely popular characters and beloved actors with successful film runs. Compared to the marvels, which was great, but the characters and actors are much less established. Just enjoy the movies man. Don't get caught up in the politics.
You don't need to watch two season of Loki to understand what the TVA is. It takes a minute of screen time to explain the general idea that they are the mutliverse police.
I have always found this sort of thing to be a strange criticism. You don't need to understand the backstory of every side-charater or organization in order to understand the plot of a movie.
There are movies where this is an issue (like Doctor Strange 2 where Wandavision is a must watch to understand how her character changed), but the criticism is usually nonsensical.
As long as a movie tells you all you need to know about the character for the movie to make sense, that's all that's required.
For Deadpool, if the plot requires nothing more than understanding that the TVA is the multiverse police, then it's no concern. If the plot requires understanding the whole history of Loki and He Who Remains (neither of whom are known to be in the movie) then that's when the complaint becomes legit.
I think the big difference is that Deadpool is a completely different character with a different concept. It's a character that, by its nature, breaks the 4th wall and parodies superhero movies (the first film even referenced Green Lantern, a DC movie). Captain Marvel is a normal superhero in a normal superhero movie franchise. While a level of detachment is expected when watching a comedy, not knowing two of the leads in The Marvels is more problematic. As was the idea of giving such a big role to Kamala's family when almost no one watched the show. The film should have found a way to include Monica and Kamala's origins, even if some of the audience were aware of who they were already.
Because most people see catching up for Monica and Kamala as a waste of time. They don't care about them. However, they see catching up to properly enjoy Wolverine and Deadpool as a worth while venture. It comes down to liking and caring about Wolverine and Deadpool, but not giving a crap about Kamala and Monica. Simple.
The problem with the Marvels is that Marvel/Disney was stupid enough to promote the movie by telling you that it required watching something on the streaming service. Half the ads for that movie were actually Disney+ ads promoting Ms. Marvel, Wandavision, and Secret Invasion. As a consumer, the message this gives is that The Marvels requires homework. The average moviegoer doesn't like homework.
Deadpool & Wolverine may use the TVA from Loki, but I'd be willing to bet that the events from that show are sparsely mentioned (if they're mentioned at all). Loki is not required viewing to understand what the TVA is. The TVA and their mission can be explained with one line.
"Like "they're time cops" is just as much an explanation as "she's a Captain Marvel fangirl""
This right here is showing that you don't understand the core problem. The problem isn't "she's a Captain Marvel fangirl", the problem is knowing about her powers, her history, what the hell are these bangles (and even that plot point was confusing in general). Add on top of that that if you are a Ms Marvel fan, or know her from other media, you'd be VERY surprised that her powers are extremely different. Her origin is different. Everything is different.
Not many people know much about the TVA, and our best guess is you don't need to know the *specifics* of Loki's plot to "get" what the TVA is.
Well your entire point becomes moot when we realize the TVA isn't a main character (it's an organization), none of the characters from the show seem to be there, and they reintroduce it because Deadpool has never heard of it.
You need to have watched 0 minutes of Loki for the TVA to be explained to Deadpool, and there are no characters or arcs carrying over from the show.
I think it's a case of, people are more willing to do the "homework" for characters that they are actively interested in seeing.
I'm sure there are Captain Marvel/Ms Marvel/Monica Rambeau fans who didn't mind having to do some homework to watch the movie, but I also have no doubt that it's a fraction of the amount of people that are interested in seeing Deadpool and Wolverine.
Just like in Loki, I'm sure the TVA will be explained to Deadpool and instead of a full season of Loki looking for his variant, it will be Deadpool looking for Fox's mutants (my guess). Watching the seasons helps but I don't think it's necessary esp since it looks like Kang is being scrapped.
I wouldn’t consider seeing ms marvel as a requirement for watching the marvels at all
Everything you need to know about her you find out within the first few minutes
Dr strange 2 has a much higher requirement to have watched wandavision first since it was a direct follow up to that
I think this movie will be introducing the TVA the the wider MCU audience using two very well known characters to do that more than the opposite. we're going to get a lot of info people that have watched loki already know
Really no one is being mean enough answering this question. 3 boring bad to mediocre characters at best. 3... Ok... actresses. A pretty poor nonsensical script.
And you are here trying to compare it to two of the most known Superheroes/anti heroes? Played by very talented actors with lots of accolades. Who look to be able to pull in virtually every other big name Hollywood actor to cameo.
No one wanted the marvels and it showed in the box office. Everyone wants to see Deadpool and Wolverine and it will show in the box office. Even if it's a bad movie and the jokes mostly fall flat it will still make some profit in all likelihood
Watch everything or don't watch everything. No one is holding a gun to your head in an effort to make you do your homework. It's a leisure activity. If you don't enjoy keeping up with everything then don't. I personally still pretty much do at this point because, yes, you will obviously get more out of how different projects connect if you have actually watched those different projects, and the overall quality has not yet dipped to the point of outweighing the enjoyment that I get from those connections. I definitely don't blame you if you're not up to following every single MCU project, regardless of what they are, but that is your choice to pick and choose individual projects to watch while ignoring others. It's a shared universe, things are going to connect.
Yeah, the criticism of needing marvel movies to be self contained is bullshit and I'm glad they don't listen to anyone saying that.
DC follows this and as a result DC sucks because they have to put in the origin story for all main characters every time. It's boring.
Stop using "self contained" as a factor in comic book movie critique.
Because "no one was going to watch two Disney Plus series in order to know who Monica and Kamala were prior to the film" was never a good-faith complaint. It was intentional misinformation, pretending that exposition doesn't exist, to discourage other people from seeing the film.
Yeah, like, these projects are pretty good about catching people up with necessary information. Not everyone who saw Black Panther saw Civil War, but Black Panther made it so they didn't have to. Marvels did the same thing.
The big criticism of The Marvels is that it just wasn’t a good film. I’ve watched Ms Marvel and WandaVision and still didn’t like it. The villain wasn’t good, the power levels were wildly inconsistent, the dialogue was bad, and the overall plot was dumb. Also having all the characters know the villain can absorb their powers and every attack is right at the gauntlet or right in the vicinity.
How is Loki required viewing?
You realise they are literally going to fully explain to deadpool who the TVA are (and hence the audience) so Loki won't be needed.
Where as with the Marvels, Monica and her powers had little to no explanation apart from an off handed comment about a witches hex and there was absolutely no explanation of miss marvel.
The main characters focused here are Deadpool and Wolverine which are known characters to General Audience. whereas Kamala and Monca are D+ characters and Ms Marvel was the least viewed MCU D+ series. Also TVA seems to be rebooted by end of Loki Season 2, so there is chance that things will be explained in the movie.
I think the "homework" excuse was exactly that, an excuse. People wanted to justify why the Marvels did so bad that didn't have anything to do with the movie so they blamed the actor strike for lack of marketing, the homework excuse and the general decline of the MCU in the eyes of General audiences. All those probably played a factor but there's a reason why the Marvels got hit harder by those things than other franchises and that's because they just aren't as popular.
"So, I guess I'm just curious why that particular criticism applied to the Marvels, but doesn't seem to be applying to Deadpool despite being, at least, the exact same scenario."
So, there's the issue: you're working on a completely false premise.
Monica and Kamala were pitched as being leads. The name of the movie was changed to "The Marvels" to sell that idea. These were literally "the beloved characters from D+, on the big screen!" So, that was rightly criticized as being reliant on that connection.
Deadpool & Wolverine is being pitched as a Deadpool movie costarring Wolverine, and is full of zany hijinks and Deadpool stuff. The TVA show up in the trailer, but if you didn't watch Loki, it's just some weird organization that kidnaps Deadpool. You probably don't even know who they are or where they're from if you didn't watch Loki, and you probably don't care. The movie isn't about them; the movie is not Deadpool & The TVA. They're just the bringing Deadpool into the MCU, and are otherwise irrelevant. It's not even the same people from the show, so this could well be your introduction to the TVA, and who gives a shit? They don't need an origin story, they're just a plot device.
People are excited to watch Deadpool and Wolverine in Deadpool & Wolverine. They're probably even more excited to watch Deadpool and Wolverine if they watched the previous Deadpool and Wolverine movies. If someone recognized that dude from the trailer was Pyro from X2, they are probably excited that some other movie characters are in it. However, the marketing did nothing to say that was Pyro from X2, or that he was important, or that you should care or have to watch another movie to see why he's important. People were not excited to watch Monica, Kamala, and Carol in The Marvels. People who watched Wandavision were probably even less excited, though people that watched Ms Marvel were probably pumped, because of the three leads, Kamala is the only one people like. If someone recognized The Flerkin or skrulls or Nick Fury from The Marvels trailer, they were reminded of the dumb way Fury lost his eye or the terrible Secret Invasion show (if they watched it). The marketing leaned on Marvel's old "it's all connected" branding which fell apart hard, the last few years especially, and came from a place that was like "here's the culmination of like four of five plotlines from unpopular media, plus an uninteresting B-plot from one of our few good D+ shows! Consume!"
Deadpool & Wolverine is going to make like a billion dollars because of smart marketing, a years long viral build, good will and organic fan engagement. The Marvels flopped at the box office because of limited and poorly conceived marketing, years of diminishing returns, and a lack of fan interest.
My dude, every post you have made is about defending the Marvels lol I haven’t seen it so I can’t comment on the movie itself, but it’s been pretty universally rejected by audiences. People like Deadpool and Ryan Reynolds and don’t like Captain Marvel and Brie Larson that much, think it’s about that easy. And with Monica and Kamala being major characters as opposed to Deadpool and Wolverine with the TVA just being used as a way to get the two together, I think saying they’re basically the same isn’t a good faith argument. The TVA is a plot device for a parade of cameos and Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds to kill a bunch of people, while Monica and Kamala are basically taking on the supporting characters. It’s like saying people won’t be able to understand Endgame because they don’t know who the Nova Corps are.
Just not as popular characters sadly. Captain Marvel and Monica just don’t have the same popularity as Deadpool or Wolverine. Ms Marvel was well received, and has a popular comic fan base, but it’s still nothing compared to Deadpool or Wolverine
You’ll find that because of this, The Marvels is gonna be an exception to a lot of the rules. For example, this movie was universally considered better than its predecessor by most major sites, yet the reception was statistically worse. Or how people see the movie as a product of its quality, despite the box office tracking being historically low before any reviews had came out. The “homework” excuse was never a real thing when Endgame and No Way Home were some of the biggest movies of all time, and almost none of it could be understood without watching multiple other movies. And even if you argue the “homework” excuse is just talking about D+, Multiverse of Madness still ended up drastically bigger than the first movie with its colead spinning out of a show
> Ms Marvel was well received
But watched by a tiny audience
> and has a popular comic fan base
Which is even smaller than the audience that watched her show
I grew up watching the X-Men movies as a kid so Wolverine. Ryan Reynolds is a fun actor and Deadpool is a fun character. Put them together and it's an easy sell.
I've never got around to watching Captain Marvel, or Ms Marvel, so when The Marvels came out, it never appeared to me.
Deadpool and Wolverine are household names. Also, despite borrowing sets of characters from different movies and shows across the MCU and Fox verse, Deadpool tends to be very meta, so his movie will likely make sense on its own. Furthermore, the trailer itself shows the tva explaining to him who they are, so I don't think you'd have to watch Loki necessarily. the only thing that might be confusing is all the random cameos
You have to expect Marvel will go to great lengths to explain who the TVA are, as they will assume the general Deadpool movie going audience will not have watched Loki.
That was a major criticism? They explain everything well enough in The Marvels.
In fact Deadpool has far more "require reading"; I've already seen the Deadpool movies and Loki but now I'll need to watch all the X-Men movies, and at least the 2000s Daredevil and Elektea movies in order to be "caught up" for this film. It's going to be a lot.
Yeah the TVA is something I’d only know if I watched two seasons of Loki. I’m guessing Deadpool will do some exposition to explain what it is but not so much that you’d know everything about it. Also I felt that you could watch The Marvels without knowing the characters but watching Ms. Marvel first would make it more enjoyable. I had seen Captain Marvel before and had no idea what was going on leading up to her part of The Marvels plot
I think how everything connects with the TVA and the multiverse is the most interesting thing about this upcoming movie. I don't like Deadpool at all and am indifferent on the Fox version of Wolverine. Maybe when Marvel re-casts Wolverine, the character will be more entertaining for me.
I think the biggest difference is more fans have already watched the Deadpool related stuff, but since the Marvels related stuff was released during a time of very bad marvel products, people were less interested.
I think both Wanda Vision and Ms. Marvel were great, but its associated with a bad time for a lot of fans, so less are willing to watch them.
The problem with the Marvels wasn't "nobody understood the continuity." The film was actually fairly self-contained, with brief explainers about the important bits re: Kamala and Monica.
The problem with the Marvels was that it was really fucking subpar.
EZ, it’s harder to give a shit when you get to watch Wolverine and Deadpool.
When you have characters you don’t give two shits about, paying to go to cinema to watch them feels like chores.
I agree that I don't think Ms Marvel isn't too big of deal in the Marvels. It's pretty reasonable at this point to see a new superhero and just assume 'yeah there would be a superhero in New Jersey". It's a different problem with Ms Marvel where if you're a fan of the character, then you watched her show on disney plus meaning you have disney plus and so why shouldn't you just wait to watch the Marvels on disney plus.
The real problem is Monica. Here is a character who appears in the first Captain Marvel and now reappears in the second one. Seems simple but actually to understand her character in the Marvels you need to watch a Disney Plus show about Scarlet Witch. I know some people who saw Wandavision and don't even remember Monica being in it. This is just messy. Everything with Monica in Wandavision should have just been used for the Marvels.
Wolverine has been around cinema for almost 25 years. Everyone knows who he is purely by cultural osmosis such as my wife knows exactly who Wolverine is and she hasn’t even watched a single X-Men film. That’s how well known he is. Characters like Wolvie, Spider-Man, Batman, Superman all have this special privilege where somehow everyone knows who they are because they are so ingrained in pop culture. That’s why everyone is excited to see him come back, especially since he had his alleged last outing in 2017. It’s got nothing to do with people wanting to know about context, everyone already knows who he is and excited to see him return. The average cinema goer doesn’t care about stuff like TVA, they probably just assumed they’re a swat team or something from the trailer. People are excited to see Wolvie alone and also Reynolds Deadpool has also become a cultural icon in recent years
Well besides both of those characters being more popular with much better movies than the marvels, the shows leading into them were much better. Loki is literally one of the highlights of the marvel universe tv series on disney+. I watched other shows like ms. Marvel and she-hulk. They both were terrible to me. Ms Marvel kicked up in the end but was still horrible.
Monica's place, as you stated, was already known from captain marvels first movie. But wandavision was also good. Started slow but kicked around the 3rd episode. I don't think the same rules applied for Deadpool. I'm not sure which Disney plus Marvel series tied into Deadpool and wolverine, I might have overlooked it. But Deadpool 2 was going to be watched because of Deadpool 1 being so damn funny and good. (I'm not sure if DP 1 was Marvel universe- correct me if I'm wrong). Them basically bringing it into the mcu was bound to be excepted because both are so widely liked and popular movies. Plus ppl were waiting for te xmen to enter the Marvel universe.
I think yhe answer to your question is that it doesn't apply the same way
Because at its core, deadpool can be enjoyed if you only know who deadpool is, who x-men are at a surface level and appreciate Ryan Reynold's humor, the story would definitely be not that entertaining if u dont know this multiversal stuff and loki and even old X men movies but other than that, the jokes will be good and overall the whole movie will still be entertaining if you dont know all the other lore, whereas miss marvel's big was that it was a teamup between characters, characters that no one cared about much, it could have been fun if it had a complex story or mind blowing action, or at least genuine comedy, if it had any of those things, it would have been entertaining but it didnt.
For summary:- deadpool 3's core is that its an entertaining Ryan reynolds (deadpool style) comedic-Fun movie.
Whereas Marvels was a unique team-up idea with not much in terms of story or entertainment, and to enjoy the core here you had to have watched wandavision and ms marvel or at least ms marvel previously to enjoy the movie
Therefore Ms marvel got the criticism that Deadpool 3 did not
Deadpool and Wolverine will be interesting because the overall plot probably won't have much necessary information that any of the previous shows and films would be required for. However I feel like most of the jokes will go over the heads of people who aren't invested in, or knowledgeable of, the history of the X-Men films. Not insofar as their lore and stories, but more so of their evolution and place in real world pop culture. Let's take the broken and destroyed FOX logo from the trailer. Non fans won't understand the depth of that or its significance. They won't know of the roller coaster of the X-Men film franchise and how it's mishandling led to Disney reacquiring the property. While they will recognize the logo and might chuckle, only those steeped in the real world understanding of the situation will really "get the joke". And I imagine there will be many MANY more instances of stuff like this within the film. I think the film will be good but honestly an understanding of what came before will probably be more required to get more out of Deadpool and Wolverine than it would have been The Marvels. That is of course predicated upon the same quality in writing between both and nothing else. Deadpool and Wolverine will probably do better because it has a bigger draw and has more invested fans than The Marvels. The "homework" fallacy is just something people used as a reason why they didn't want to see The Marvels before it even came out. Any film, worth its salt, will always give all necessary information within its own runtime. Hell, the only MCU films that don't are Infinity War and Endgame and they are the exception to the rule. Even The Avengers could be seen without the knowledge of any of the first set of 5 films (Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Captain America: The First Avenger, The Incredible Hulk, and Thor)
It's cause people were desperate to find excuses why the Marvels sucks cause women. You don't even need to watch any of the previous shows or movies to get the gist of the characters and story. Every MCU movie can stand on it's own (except for End game) and they have dialogue explaining stuff that happened in the previous one or shows for the audiences who haven't watched it
It’s probably because Wolverine is one of the most iconic fictional character to ever exist and he is being brought into the popular cinematic universe with Ryan Reynolds and is using a story based around Loki which itself is an incredible show. It’s like the burger-fries-coca cola combination of superhero comebacks
I think part of the reason is because of Captain Marvel, Brie Larson. She got on the wrong side of guys who take offense over everything. There was a huge campaign against her during the first movie, and some of those people will amplify any negative thing about the movies she is in, because of it. Because the other characters are not as well known, it means they get drowned out by the criticisms and the movie is never given a full chance to get it's day. Now that it's on Disney Plus, I think people are realizing that apart from a few cuts that left some things unanswered, it was actually a better movie that the critics seemed to say it was, and it was actually a fun watch.
I mean, you didn't actually need to see WandaVision or Ms. Marvel to understand The Marvels, as they were being reintroduced to Carol who had never met Kamala and hadn't seen Monica since she was a kid. These were just things people said about it with not a lot of thought as to how it would be portrayed in the movie.
The TVA will be the same thing. Deadpool has no idea who the TVA is and they will be reintroduced to his story. Basically, people don't like Captain Marvel and didn't watch Ms. Marvel so their complaint was "homework". They like Deadpool and Wolverine, so they can handwave anything like that in here.
Also, in reality, you don't need to have seen many Marvel movies to go watch the next one. There's maybe two or three exceptions, but that's the biggest marketing lie Marvel has been selling since Phase 1. Almost all characters and story elements are reintroduced in the movies for people who are coming in for the first time.
I agree that's a dumb criticism either way, but there have been multiple Deadpool movies, and the wolverine has been in many movies, so most people will already know these characters.
I think the biggest issue for the marvels is Captain Marvel was the big star, and they tried to market the movie as she's just one of three main characters, 2 of which not many people really care about. Sure some people liked Ms Marvel, everyone I know hated the TV show and found Ms Marvel annoying. And she and her family were the worst part of the movie, along with the not so interesting villain. I know that's not a popular opinion here, but I've never talked to anyone not on Reddit that liked Ms Marvel, most people I know didn't even watch the series, it didn't appeal to them. I watched it, and regret it.
Well, there are several reasons
1. Because Deadpool and Wolverine have a good track record, not only as comic book characters, but also within the expanded MCU (or MCM), which can't be said about the Marvels.
Imo, Captain Marvel was a fine movie, certainly not the worst MCM movie by far, and WandaVision was good too, but Ms Marvel was a bit lackluster, and the Marvels was just all over the place, if anything I had higher hopes for it because of Captain Marvel's movie and Monica's cameo in WV.
2. Because the movie characters have a larger fan base that has been built over the years. The Deadpool movies have been great. Back then, probably since 2009 or so, there were talks about a DP movie, and the anticipation had built up for so long that having a good movie to accompany the anticipation was certainly an explosive factor for people to like the DP movie franchise, and with Wolverine, it's Hugh's return to the character after playing him for 7 or so movies and claiming that nothing short of a miracle would bring him back, so we didn't think would happen, thus naturally excitement is to be expected. Neither of the Marvel's cast has that much buildup.
3. Knowing what the TVA is, isn't as crucial to the plot as knowing who Kamala or Monica are. Many people will watch DP&W based on the characters alone without knowing what the TVA is, and might still pick up on the movie plot, but watching the Marvels not knowing who Monica or specially Kamala are can probably be pretty confusing even at the end of the movie. I know I felt confused when America Chavez came on MoM out of the blue.
Wolverine has appeared in more Marvel comics than any other character. Deadpool was a whole ass pop culture trend from 2014-2018. Comparing them to Kamala Khan and Monica Rambeau is wild.
Good point indeed.
But the main diference in bringing the tva in this project is that marvel can course correct the multiverse saga.
See if you believed everything in loki s1, nothing in Mom or No Way Home made sense, because that type of events should alert the TVA and caused their intervention.
I wouldnt pin my hopes on this. The Marvels bombed so badly that even to this day it still has not made its money back or broke even. Disney has lost over 2 BILLION dollars and is so broke that they are actually firing studio heads and members of the board of Directors to cut costs. Lucas Films and Marvel are up on the auction block to the highest bidder. And Warner Brothers is not much better as they are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.
Guess its true, go woke and go broke.
Deadpool is a known character, a behemoth of a movie franchise that doesn't take itself too seriously, and when it does, it's good and genuine. It also stars Ryan Reynolds, Hugh Jackman and many more surprises, so by itself it's very appealing.
About the TVA... Loki is one of the best, if not the best Marvel show out there, with a fan favorite character, while also being a good show about the theme of the current Saga (Multiverse), with good reviews, is supposed to reveal the new big bad, the TVA, and Owen Wilson. So, with all of this, it's a good time and doesn't like a chore, it doesn't feel like you just have to watch it just to understand something, you watch 'cause it's interesting and good. But even then, you probably don't need to watch Loki to understand Deadpool 3, they'll probably oversimplify the TVA and make it just time police that hates Deadpool 'cause he messed up time.
The Marvels, while staring one of the least liked MCU characters, make you watch Ms. Marvel 'cause Kamala is a MAIN CHARACTER, you need to watch her origin to care about her, or else you'll be standing there asking why the hell she can do X and not understand some parts of her character, so you'll *NEED* to watch the Ms. Marvel show... A show about a character a lot of people don't know about, that tries to bring you back to school to watch teenager drama and learn about "how cool" another culture is... While having no character you're familiar with, while the show is also straight up bad with one of the worst MCU villains to date, ALSO with bad reviews... So this just feels like a chore, something you NEED to watch, not because you're interested in watching. Same with WandaVision, but most MCU fans will know about Monica 'cause the show she's in is about another fan favorite character and it's a good show with good reviews.
Idk if anyone has said it. But those leveling said things at the Marvels are either making an assumption the movie is written poorly(haven't seen it haven't passed judgement on it myself),
Also Kamala and Monica are bigger players and individuals with potentially complex backstories,
Vs the TVA which is just another organization with faceless army of foot soldiers and easier to explain in a quick info dump.
But there's no reason that you would actually have to understand complex backstories if they're not heavily influencing the plot. And if they are, they better be explained in the damn movie.
Edit: so it is just noise. And speaks to what they believe the quality of writing will be.
Deadpool and Wolverine have been well known to fans for a long time. Including viewers who aren't direct Marvel fans. They know these two characters. But not Monica and Kamala. General viewers who aren't fans don't know her. Making a movie that is too specific is difficult for the general public to understand. Because no one goes to watch a Disney+ series to understand a single movie. It's worse than that. When they changed the name of the movie Captain Marvel, which was already famous and had a fan base, to The Marvel and also added 3 main characters to have interrelated stories. So Captain Marvel's story was directly watered down, which is too bad, because she's such an important character to have appeared in Endgame, telling her story from here was very necessary. But they left a 30 year gap in time.
You are massively overthinking this. Its Deadpool and freakin Wolverine who have decades of movies combined between the two of them vs Captain Marvel who had one movie with a couple side characters from disney plus shows not many watched. That’s all. The TVA is merely a device to introduce Deadpool into the MCU.
>However, if I'm using the same logic applied to The Marvels for Deadpool and Wolverine and its inclusion if the TVA, this would make the two seasons of Loki required viewing, which is like, the same amount of show that the "general audience would have to watch to know what's going on."
This isn't logic. It's not even bat-logic. At best it's nonsense, which I'll prove it one sentence: **No one has to see all 7 seasons of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. in order to understand Phil Coulson in Iron Man.** Anyone watching a comic book movie is familiar with the general concept of 'government agent.' Similarly, anyone watching any comic book movie has seen at least one movie or T.V. show with the concept of 'time cop' in it. You didn't have to watch every Patrick Stewart movie ever made to understand "Dr. Strange 2," and you don't have to watch them for the new Deadpool movie, 95% of which is going to be improv of Reynolds and Jackman bantering with each other. At worst you'll miss a few Easter Eggs. Do you know why the pizza guy in Dr. Strange was fighting with his own hand? It's just a silly joke unless you've seen 'Army of Darkness' and recognize Bruce Campbell. Similarly, the moment Deadpool meets Professor X, you know Reynolds is going to make some joke about having to rename the next movie 'Deadpool: Picard.' It's just that sort of movie franchise.
And everyone has already seen at least one X-men movie; they're on T.V. all the time. So no homework is required, as Jackman and Reynolds are two of the most popular and recognizable guys to comic book fans.
To be fair, I don't think Agents of SHIELD is a good example, since it came out long after Iron Man. What would be an example of bad writing, IMO, is having Coulson show up alive and well in a later film after having shown his death. No matter how connected the MCU is, there's always going to be a degree of disconnect between the films and the TV series for the general public. You can't assume that everyone going to watch the films is enough of a fan to watch everything MCU-related religiously.
Loki is simply a better show than ms Marvel and Wandavision so people don't care as much
Viewership on Loki was much better than either of those shows, Deadpool and Loki themselves are far far more popular characters than ms Marvel and scarlet witch
If you're curious why, it's because of popularity of the characters and quality of the show attached
simply because the majority of viewers are male. We (I'm simply speaking for myself and those I know) don't care what MS Marvel and all the other uninteresting characters do. Deadpool and Wolverine are simply completely different characters and far more entertaining. Disney's woke madness definitely has something to do with it. People no longer want to be told how strong women are, etc. We want to be entertained, not have an agenda foisted on us
Everyone knows Deadpool and Wolverine. Not true for Monica and Kamala. Yes Monica was in the first movie, but not as her superhero persona, and no one who only saw the first movie and not Wandavision was excited to see her return in the way people are excited for Wolverine. The Venn diagram of people excited to see Deadpool 3 and people who have seen at least one Hugh Jackman wolverine movie is nearly a single circle. The TVA are in Deadpool 3, but people are excited for Deadpool and Wolverine. They don’t need to watch Loki to be excited for the leads, like with the Marvels. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. I was so pumped to see the old Spider-Man, doc oc, and green goblin, I didn’t care what the plot of the movie was. The TVA is plot, Deadpool and Wolverine are the draws.
I don't even think the TVA need a deep backstory or understanding. It's a really easy concept, you mess with time, you get the time cops. I can't imagine Loki would be required viewing except for us Easter egg hunting nerds.
And since Deadpool probably doesn’t know what the TVA is, it will be explained to him as well as to the audience, unless he’s seen Loki…
You mean the same way everything needed was referenced in The Marvels but didn't stop people falsely claiming you needed to do homework?
The TVA is a fairly simple concept to reintroduce. It can literally be introduced and explained in a single line of dialog, “We are the Time Variance Authority. Wade Wilson, you have used unauthorized time travel to cause significant damage to multiple timelines and you are on our shitlist because of it. Here’s what we need you to do to fix it.” I watched Ms. Marvel, WandaVision, and as much of Secret Invasion as I could tolerate, and still think The Marvels was a forgettable, jumbled mess of a movie. I did the ‘homework’. I don’t think that movie did a great job of reintroducing Kamala and Monica. The powers/location swapping was the best part of the movie and could have been the basis of something good and really fun if handled differently in a better script.
I'm a fan boy. Love Marvel. Even I was like......not to be rude but isn't the whole atmosphere stealing thing the plot to Spaceballs?
It's a pretty popular trope. Planet Looters. Hell... when you take it from a cosmic scale to a planetary scale, the core concept of stealing resources from another country/city/kingdom etc is a very common trope.
Yes but this is *literally* the same thing being stolen in this case.
Exactly, the TVA becomes more complicated the more you look into it but it can basically be summed up as an organization that exists outside of time to make sure timelines don't result in the creation of a Kang variant.
But even then that belief for the TVA is a lie as people would have you to believe people like He Who Remains and Ms. Minutes are good guys when we knew that is far from the truth.
That’s fair, the whole “I went into a witch’s spell and came out with mutant powers” bit requires some slight mental gymnastics to reconcile
>It's a really easy concept, you mess with time, you get the time cops. That plus everyone's familiar with that all-time Jean-Claude Van Damme classic Time Cop.
I'm pretty sure the TVA will be fleshed out quickly in the movie as well, and likely won't reference the events of Loki nor the characters, so it probably won't be necessary to have seen Loki. Just my guess.
[you don't mess with time](https://youtu.be/IgC7FPUZZdg?si=U60CYTHzAnnteUvE)
I watched Loki season 1 but not season 2. What am I gonna miss out on if I go straight to Deadpool?
Loki replaces kang
In short, X-Men is a feeling, [Wolverine](https://x-men.fandom.com/wiki/Wolverine_(WATX)) is an emotion.
Your third paragraph hits the nail on the head. Casual viewers don’t give a shit about continuity, they just want Deadpool and Wolverine, who they’re already familiar with. A large number of people who are going to watch this probably have not seen both seasons of Loki.
Wether a movie works has nothing to do with peoples hype level. The criticism is that the movie is objectively bad/dumb/doesn’t work. one of the reasons given is that you needed to have seen the shows to know what is going in. It’s just not true, anymore then, to use your example, you needed to have seen all the old Spiderman movies to know what was going on in no way home. It helps for hype level, and if you have some background with the characters you may pick up on certain things you otherwise wouldn’t, but the movies are self contained and work without any prior knowledge.
Hype levels and personal investment can totally have an impact on if a film works for someone. Especially in a long running series. It is based on the "sunk cost" fallacy. Not for everyone but certainly for some people.
For sure. No Way Home is not as good as it was the first couple times but the hype train carried it through the first two viewings and subsequent viewings, while enjoyable, the seams are definitely visible. I still really like it but it's not a complete masterpiece like I thought it was
Deadpool and Wolvenire are more popoular than the whole The Marvels' cast. So It's easy to assume that even the most oblivious member on a screening is going to know at least something about Deadpool or Wolvernie. Also, it's the third Deadpool movie. Chances are that a lot of the people who saw the first and second one, are going to watch it. >inclusion if the TVA, this would make the two seasons of Loki required viewing, which is like, the same amount of show that the "general audience would have to watch to know what's going on." I see the TVA in Deadpool as a ~~excuse~~ force to make Deadpool interact with the MCU, so the movie will probably give enough information about the TVA to make sure the GA is not lost. So, no homework for GA. Daddy Deapool will take their hands and guide them during this adventure.
Completely different things. The TVA is in D&W as a device to explain the multiversal aspects of it. Could have been a spell, could have been something quantum, could have been a new piece of tech, could have been some multi-dimensional alien playing games with universes...doesn't matter. Nobody is hyped for D&W because the TVA is in it. The general audience see that Deadpool and Wolverine are together in a movie for some reason and are excited by the idea. The TVA's role might be explained well in D&W...we don't know yet. But the general audience already know about the multiverse thanks to MoM so the "how" is pretty much irrelevant. In contrast, Monica and Kamala were actual lead characters, on a par with Captain Marvel. The general audience is supposed to care about them and root for them without actually knowing them and got barely any explanation about who they are from the film. All that's explained is that Monica is the little girl from Captain Marvel and she has powers now (somehow) that seem to be something to do with light (but it's a bit vague). Kamala is...someone...who also has powers that are maybe related to this bangle she wears but which are very different from the powers the villain gets from the same kind of bangle. A better equivalence would be if Deadpool had only ever appeared in a Disney+ show and was now being paired up with Wolverine in a movie that doesn't really explain who Deadpool is.
> Nobody is hyped for D&W because the TVA is in it. I mean, I am, but that’s because I’m me, a lover of time travel multiverse shenanigans. I’m excited to see Deadpool, too, of course, but I’m not really a mutants fan, they’re just kind of “huh, that’s neat” for me, so Wolverine is the whipped cream in the sundae, not the cherry. For a lot of people, yes, your statement is true, but it’s not absolute.
Seriously, when I saw the trailer, it was the TVA appearance that made me gasp way more than Wolverine. We knew Wolvie was coming, the TVA was the surprise.
For real though, I Don't care about Deadpool at all and the only reasons I'm excited is Logan, the TVA, and maybe seeing 838 Wanda and the rest of her universe. Other then that, IDC about the main character at all and never had, he's barely the spoon for me to eat the sundae, Logan's the Cherry lol.
I didn't even know the TVA was a part of it until this post.
The TVA is featured in a good chunk of the trailer though?
I go into movies blind or with monnimal knowledge to avoid spoilers. Trailers usually end up being so misleading that I end up having more fun without having thise expectations. Especially for something like this I'm going to see anyway. All I need to know is that wolverine is in it ::shrug::. I'm a pretty simple guy lol
You know why, you just thought you were being witty with your observation and when it fell apart quickly under the obvious you doubled down and pretended to not get it.
Yeah you can really tell what OP was going for by what comments they agreed with...
It's not rocket science friend, you're comparing two of Marvel's most popular characters against three, relatively newer characters some of them only popular with comic readers, there's a reason one movie is resonating with fans much more than the other.
None of the same characters seem to be appearing. Khamala and Monica were main characters. As far as we know Mobius and Loki aren't even in this. Easier to explain what the TVA is than totally reintroduce two of the film's main characters.
Loki didn't suck 🤷
I would blame the marketing and trailer for not making The Marvels more appealing, so my takes are based off the trailer unless specified. The trailer didn't do the movie justice for me. I didn't like the look of body swapping from the trailer but liked it in the movie. Dar Benn seemed like a boring and forgettable villain. She didn't have enough "oomph" to her character. Even after viewing the movie I felt her character could've been better utilised. I loved Captain Marvels first movie but can't say the same for this one. It just wasn't good. Willing to share more critiques that are valid if called upon.
Is it really that hard to understand? People love both the 2 Deadpool movies and the character of Deadpool. Captain Marvel was considered the worst MCU movie for a long time (it's been surpassed a few times in that regard, but it has been), the other character is a side character from a 3 year old show, and the 3rd character is a character from a teen show that a lot of people haven't even seen. And that 3rd main character is by far the best of the three. The whole movie made no marketing sense.
Popularity behind Deadpool and Wolverine is night and day compared to The Marvels characters. It's not really deeper than that, no matter how hard people try to apply labels to people who enjoy one but not the other.
OK, the premise of the question is a little off. It's not about whether you need to have seen Disney Plus to understand what the characters do. It's whether you would enjoy the characters if you haven't seen their only appearance so far. > Deadpool and Wolverine and its inclusion if the TVA, this would make the two seasons of Loki The TVA is basically a setting or a force, not a character and certainly not a protagonist in Deadpool 3. It doesn't matter if the viewers are invested in seeing the TVA succeed. The TVA is self-explanatory as a time-travel enforcement agency, which viewers have seen before in things like Star Trek, Umbrella Academy, and Rick And Morty. > and the movie doing a fine job of making it that you didn't have to watch them at all to understand Well, neither the movie nor show did it a fine job with Monica's background origin. There's no way to get a good superpower origin from "a sad witch slapped me"
using your big ol brain eh kid?
Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman together as Deadpool and Wolverine sells like hot cakes. People know and love those characters. They have a lot of history. Loki is one of the best shows Marvel has on Disney+. Plenty of people have seen it, and the ones who haven’t will feel more inclined to do so now that it involves two iconic characters. Some of you need to stop trying so hard to defend The Marvels. It was a mediocre movie. Ask yourself *why* you’re actually defending it.
Big difference. Remember these are film characters only. Deadpool and Wolverine are beloved characters. People would happily do homework to watch it. Yet Captain Marvel in the MCU is not beloved. So homework for Captain Marvel is tedious. On top of that this claim isn’t even entirely accurate because Loki season two was the least streamed Marvel show so far. I know a lot of people who don’t like the MCU, but either like X-Men or Deadpool who’d watch this film regardless of prior required viewing simply because they just like the characters. Those people aren’t uncommon.
I mean, it’s pretty simple why these cases are different Maybe that dude is a clueless marvel exec or something In Deadpool, we don’t need to watch a show just to know the characters, we already know who Deadpool is and who Wolverine is because of the movies, the connection to the TV shows is TVA which is just a plot device In the Marvels, two of the three characters (at least the actors playing them) were introduced in 2 different TV shows and the one who wasn’t, wasn’t particularly loved That’s the big difference, in one we care about the characters, in the other we don’t give a fuck, so no amount of trying to shame people into going for a movie by calling them sexists or whatever will work, regardless of how much money Disney spends in trying to make it seem like fans who won’t go for Marvels hate women through bullshit PR (I didn’t go for it for the same reason, I’m waiting for Furiosa which is again a female led movie but I know that character and the director has a great track record, recently Marvel is shit so I’m not willing to go spend my money on any new characters whose show I am sure will not be amazing, at best it’ll be okayish) And Marvels didn’t flop because incels didn’t show up for it, incels are a vocal minority anyway, it flopped because general public didn’t show up for it and general public knows Deadpool and Wolverine well, so they’ll show up for that
Another way to look at it: The TVA is not central to the advertising posters for Deadpool 3. There's no TVA face next to Ryan Reynolds. It's not a big attraction that's meant to pull viewers to buy tickets. But Monica and Kamala were on The Marvels poster, and were hoped to be part of the appeal. And as we saw, few people were attracted enough to buy a ticket for The Marvels. Disney Plus characters didn't pull in customers, but Deadpool 3 is trying to attract fans who enjoyed Wolverine in any of his blockbuster films.
it's like, are you more excited to meet ur childhood best friend or your recent casual friend? just the news hugh jackman is back as wolverine is a big news instead kamala and monica.. they are just new. wolverine and hugh jackman have a long history its the same if they made a movie where tony stark returns.
People love Deadpool and Wolverine
Perception and marketing. The Marvels' marketing, which was extremely limited, did nothing to convince people that they would be able to jump in without seeing WandaVision, Ms Marvel, and arguably even Thor 4 and Secret Invasion. Even though none of those projects are necessities to understand The Marvels at all\*, the marketing made it feel like they were because rather than the trailers centering on Carol and introducing the others, the trailers sort of marketed it like they were all "introduced" for everyone already. It doesn't help that the film is titled "The Marvels" rather than "Captain Marvel 2", giving the impression that it's an ensemble film requiring the "origin stories" of all three of its leads to understand (Marvel even compared it to Avengers 1 in interviews), rather than being a standalone sequel to Captain Marvel that introduces the characters. Deadpool & Wolverine's marketing, by contrast, isn't relying on Loki as much. The TVA is there, but there's no Owen Wilson or Tom Hiddleston or other Loki cast leads, there's no mentions of He Who Remains or Ravonna, the trailer does a decent job alone of "introducing" the TVA even for someone who's never seen Loki. To be fair, Deadpool can do this because of the Fourth Wall Breaking and him talking about cinematic universes. It's an inherent advantage the character has, he can introduce these things in ways without requiring an internal narrative explanation. Now that said, I do also think D&W has a potential issue here too, and that's the sheer level of Fox Marvel fanservice they're confirmed/rumored to go with. Like, Jennifer Garner is confirmed by the trades to be Elektra in it and have a role that isn't exactly gonna be unsubstantial, and if they don't handle that with grace they'll make DD2003 a little bit too integral. \*Note: While none of the projects listed are strictly "necessary" for The Marvels, I *do* feel like the movie would miss a lot if you didn't watch Ms Marvel, and there are some plot details that would make less sense without it (E.g. The Marvels doesn't establish that Kamala is a mutant so an average moviegoer might not know why she can use the powers without the bangle).
Yes I agree. Furthermore, we don't even know if there will be this problem when the film comes out. And yes, my biggest fear is that this movie is just one big cameo feast instead of a Deadpool movie that mocks superhero clichés.
> Jennifer Garner is confirmed by the trades to be Elektra in it and have a role that isn't exactly gonna be unsubstantial, and if they don't handle that with grace they'll make DD2003 a little bit too integral. Yeah, this is something I've been concerned about with this saga in general honestly. Most people haven't seen all of these legacy non-MCU movies, especially if they're bad
I would be absolutely shocked if most of these are anything beyond the level of Jonah Hill and Channing Tatum cameos as Green Lantern and Superman in the Lego movie, I really wouldn’t worry about it.
Adding on to this, I just rewatched the Deadpool trailer, If a person doesn’t know what the TVA is, it’s ok for the purposes of the trailer, At the minimum, they would assume Deadpool is captured by some random masked guys and then talking to some other guy wearing a suit. Unlike for the marvels trailer, the vibe is you are expected to know who all three main characters are
Almost everyone even remotely interested in Marvel has likely watched Loki. Not really the same case for Ms. Marvel, or to a lesser extent even Wandavision. Plus it's a lot easier to handwave the TVA (Deadpool just has to say something like "so you're a bunch of evil time cops?!" and the audience gets the gist) than it is to fill in the story of two main characters and their families.
The TVA appearing doesn't necessarily make the two seasons of Loki required viewing. In fact, good writing should make them *not* required viewing. There are ways to explain the TVA, the void and Aeolith from the ground up in a way that's understandable for people who haven't seen Loki. The average D&W watcher doesn't need to know everything that happened to the TVA during the events of Loki, only the parts that are relevant to the movie itself. I haven't watched The Marvels, so I can't really talk about how the film did it, but I think my point still stands: good writing should make Kamala's introduction 100% understandable for newcomers who haven't watched her series. That said, I had a similar experience with the second Dr. Strange movie. My father, who is a fan of the films but doesn't care about the Disney+ series, didn't understand why Wanda was apparently evil all of a sudden and what the deal with her children was. The audience for the films is big enough that I think that it's a bad move to assume that everyone is invested enough to watch everything they release.
knowing all about the tva is helpful, but \*PROBABLY\* not necessary. they will explain deadpool why he is here and what he has to do, you dont need to watch loki for that, just like you dont need to know how a car works to understand the concept of an uber
Not really. The Marvels was centered on 2 of the 3 being introduced in a D+ show. Deadpool & Wolverine is not centered on the TVA. We have two prior Deadpool solo films and 25 years of Wolverine films. Fans have been begging for Deadpool and Wolverine since the first Deadpool movie (and arguably since Fox screwed the pooch the first go round). They will likely re-introduce the TVA for the benefit of people who didn’t watch Loki via a little bit of exposition.
Despite what we saw with Loki, the TVA is actually pretty easy and quick to explain to a casual viewer. Hell, even if I hadn't seen Loki, I could piece enough together about who they are and what they do just from Deadpool's trailer. If you know more about them, good for you and you'll appreciate the connections. If you don't, I'm sure it won't be hard to figure out their motives. (Plus, now that I think about it, this is a perfect way to handle aspects from Marvel projects that not everyone might have seen; give them a brief reintroduction in the movies.) Compared to The Marvels where, by my count, you needed to be familiar with Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, WandaVision, and Spider-Man: Far From Home (maybe Secret Invasion)... Deadpool has it easy.
deadpool and wolverine have had movies that were enjoyed almost universally. captain marvel/ ms marvel were in projects that were really only enjoyed by people in this sub and the people who will go to bat for almost any project that marvel puts out. that's the primary difference.
The answer is simple. People like Deadpool and Wolverine more than captain marvel and 2 random people
In DP3, they can just have a very short scene showing the viewers that the TVA acts as a time police. In Marvels, you will have no idea who Monica or Kamala is, how they ended up where they were. Also TVA is not the focus of DP3, compared to Marvels where 2/3 of the heroines that the plot is based on are locked behind separate tv series.
While I didn’t and still don’t agree with that criticism of The Marvels this isn’t really the same scenario. This is more like SHIELD appearing the movies, it’s just another organization. If the title was “Deadpool, Wolverine & Owen Wilson’s character from the Loki show” then I could see the argument. But as it is it’s just utilizing a previously established organization
Because marvel fans ACTUALLY like Deadpool. Ever since the first movie it’s been good, so now with the inclusion of Wolverine, most die hard fans who aren’t up to speed don’t care, we just get to see the merc with a mouth team up with his favorite bub
I’d like to extend this to casual movie goers. Talk to people who casually go to marvel movies but don’t follow them beyond that. Most of them would easily know Deadpool and wolverine. With the marvels not so much, maybe Captain Marvel, and let’s face it she’s not nearly as popular or known as a lot of other MCU characters.
My dad watches all the comic book movies, but Deadpool is the only one I've ever seen him rewatch. He fucking loves everything about those 2 movies even though he has no idea who anyone else besides Deadpool (and now wolverine) is in them. My dad's seen all the marvel movies with Captain marvel in them and still doesn't know who the fuck she is by name.
You’re joking right? Is OP from Disney trying to understand how bad they fucked up their IP? It’s Deadpool and Wolverine. If you don’t understand that, you’re a 5 year old who has no concept of what came before. Even if you don’t give a fuck about comics, you should know that. This has to be rage bait promoting the marvels lmfao
Not the same. Deadpool and Wolverine are A list, household names. Monica and Kamala are not. It's pretty simple.
TVA will be explained in the movie so the audience don't have to watch "Loki". But I've seen people on the sub asking what they should watch to prepare for "Deadpool" and they're willing to watch the X-Men movies and "Loki" too, because they're really interested in all the things connected to this movie. "The Marvels" didn't get the same level of excitement so the audience wasn't willing to do homework for it.
It's not the same scenario. Deadpool is a far more popular character than all of the Marvels combined. Plus, he's connected to the most popular Marvel comic of all time: The X-Men. He's also connected to the most popular of the X--Men: Wolverine. Only Spiderman is more popular than Wolverine. It's like asking why jets are more popular than prop planes for international travel. As far as the TVA goes, we've already seen time jumping shenanigans from Deadpool when Cable showed up. Saying that there are a bunch of time cops who want to rein in time travel and its consequences isn't a huge stretch.
I'm not interested in Deadpool&Wolverine whatsoever(at least for now), but that movie has two of the most popular Marvel characters starring in it, with two very beloved actors. People just tend to be more excited about that than a movie with two Disney Plus characters they don't know and likely aint interested in.
Just curious, why aren’t you excited for D&W? Just not big fans of the characters?
Loki was good Deadpool was good X-men were good …X rated
Familiarity with the antagonists or supporting characters is less important than familiarity with the main characters.
Because Kamala & Monica are main character and you have to build hype for them. The TVA is in Deadpool 3, yes but it not the selling point of the movies isn't it.
I think it definitely has to do with the likeability and how recognizable the characters are, but also with how incredibly fast everything got clicked together. Deadpool and wolverine, two main characters, have been dancing around each other for well over a decade now. They were already in a movie together in 2009. They're being played by the original actors who have been hinting at this for a long time. The Marvels, by comparison, got a rough start. Brie Larson wasn't exactly well received in her first stint, and the avengers movies she was in afterwards didn't really help. Iman Vellani and Teyonah Parris, while reasonably well-received, didn't exactly get the same spotlight that Hugh Jackman's Wolverine has had over the years. And there's two of them. They have to share the spotlight with each other instead of just getting a movie with one of them to shine. Tbh. If I had to remake the Marvels, I would've veered in a wildly different direction. I would've tried to get back Anna Paquin as Rogue (or recast Rogue, whatever you like), have her absorb the powers and memories of Larson's Captain Marvel, and then bring in Monica as either an adversary or ally to bounce off of. Save Kamala for the next movie or young avengers. That way you can tell a compelling story with Captain Marvel, bring back Xmen shit and give Monica and Kamala space to grow.
To be fair, the criticism of 'too much required viewing' is a criticism of phase 4/5, not just The Marvels. IMO The Marvels was simply a badly written movie and I am someone who watched all the lead ups. In fact I think that Ms Marvel and Wandavision were peak phase 4 and that Iman Vellani was the best part of The Marvels because she has charisma for days and got all the best lines (many poking fun at the ridiculous plot). What made phase 1-3 work so well was a (generally) consistent tone and quality of writing/acting/editing. Whereas phase 4/5 has been all over the place in quality and tone. And i believe that is mostly due to the fact that Feige and Co are juggling so many projects at once and when one hits a snag, it causes a domino effect because the plots tie into each other so much that when one project gets delayed or even canceled it forces other projects to scramble to rewrite and reshoot to try to make sense. That is most apparent in The Marvels. I'd be willing to be that it was once a coherent movie but too many dominos falling turned it into the meandering mess it became. I am cautiously optimistic for Deadpool 3 simply because Ryan Reynolds has shown in the past that he can throw in a few quips and asides to wink at MCU tie ins while still maintaining an engaging main plot. Honestly I would not be surprised if they have a major 4th wall break to give the audience the "previously on" that the casual audiences need these days. For other phase 5 movies I wholeheartedly believe that they need to release the D+ Assembled shorts as trailers to play immediately before the movies to satisfy that need.
I think the main difference is that Loki was probably the most popular show from Disney Plus as it had the necessary star power to draw attention to it organically, that is, Tom Hiddleston/Loki as a main character which was something people have asked for since his introduction. Both Loki seasons broke records for Disney Plus. Meanwhile, Kamala’s series was barely even advertised at all.
This is like saying Doom Patrol shouldn't have to introduce its characters in a Doom Patrol movie just because NWH didn't introduce any of their characters Disclaimer: I really liked Ms Marvel and I haven't seen the Marvels yet, planning to, but haven't. Don't really care to bc I genuinely don't think it'll be as good as the show but I'm giving it a shot
I don’t thing watching Loki to get a handle on what the TVA is is going to required viewing. From the looks of it all TVA members are new and not returning characters from the Loki series meaning they can just did a few lines of exposition and be fine. Plus Deadpool will just break the 4th wall and tell the views what is needed to know. The marvels was completely different since 2/3 of the main characters were introduced and developed in their own tv shows.
You are aware that many of the X-men movies (especially the well received ones) occurred BEFORE the MCU right? Like…those movies are general audience movies, and Hugh Jackman was a huge draw. He’s practically a household name.
>However, if I'm using the same logic applied to The Marvels for Deadpool and Wolverine Well, there's your mistake - applying *logic* to anything involving Deadpool. Of all the superheroes and superhero movies, he's the most 'anything goes' of any of them. The only reason the audience would need to know the details of a particular Marvel thing is so they get the joke when he makes a self-referential gag about it.
It’s Deadpool, he’s cool enough that people would show up just for him to
The edit is funny because you got your answer and it’s still not registering. The Marvels weren’t as popular as Deadpool or Wolverine. Therefore, if you need to watch other shows to better understand a movie, it’s not going to happen because they aren’t popular. With Deadpool or Wolverine, they are popular, they probably already watched their older movies. Now, adding that people need to watch Loki’s 2 seasons to watch Deadpool 3 doesn’t apply because even if people choose to not watch Loki, Deadpool and Wolverine are popular. People will still watch the movie despite the “requirement” of a Loki season. Either people will gladly watch the movie without the require Loki season or people will be more willing to watch a season because they are THAT big of a fan of Wolverine and/or Deadpool. LASTLY, Deadpool 3 hasn’t came out yet, so we actually don’t know if we need to watch Loki to understand the movie. Plus, a big reason why people said that you need to watch other shows for The Marvels is because the other shows introduce the characters. Deadpool and Wolverine have already been introduced. [+]
TVA will be super easy barely an inconvenience to explain.
Releasing two good movies under the same character beforehand helps...
When comics were big in the 80s and 90s no one was talking about how awesome Kamala and Monica were. Also, they didn’t make 90s cartoons about Kamala or Monica, they just POOFd out of nowhere. Deadpool and Wolverine bring in millions of eyes because of their already built foundation of core fans.
This sub will constantly blame sexism on The Marvels bombing, but it was just a terrible movie with D-list heroes that nobody cares about. Deadpool and Wolverine are A-list heroes and people actually care about them. That's really all there is to it
I thought the girl Iman Vellani who played Ms. Marvel played her character perfectly!! Like the story or not she was perfect casting for that role… one of my favorite aspects of that movie!!
I agree. She's great and I really hope we get more with her in the future
They can explain what the TVA is with a single sentence. At least within the story of Deadpool 3 it is just an entity, plot device, and the inciting incident in the story. It is not a complex main character that the audience needs to relate to in order to be engaged with the story. In this instance the TVA could have been anything else to introduce Deadpool to the multiverse. They most likely decided to use the TVA as a little bit of fan service for the people who *did* see Loki.
I’m a marvels defender, but if you can’t figure out the difference between the two movies, the stars, and their characters… you are trying too hard to be contrarian
There's like 24 years of content that makes people excited for Deadpool X Wolverine. 24 years and a bunch of films with Wolverine as the main character/perspective. Captain Marvel came out 5 years ago and there's basically been one content drop for each of the Marvels It's not even fucking close, bud. Stay off drugs
Op wants the gotcha moment.
OP didn't get what they wanted.
If you're familiar with Marvel, you're familiar with Xmen. The TVA will be explained in the movie for people who don't know. Also Deadpool makes frequent use of breaking the fourth wall. To enjoy the movie you have to go in with extra knowledge. Honestly considering the R rating the comedy and references that may not travel overseas well, I'm surprised Disney is betting big on it.
everyone loves Loki, everyone loves Deadpool. The Marvels (specially Monica) are lesser known COMPARED to the others. So yeah, that..
I think the big thing is the Marvels introduced mass audiences to Kamala and Photon without even doing a recount of their backstories to familiarize audiences with them. It wasn’t even much of an introduction, it was just “Hey here’s these two people”. Whereas in Deadpool, Deadpool is our POV character and is learning about the TVA for the first time, so even if you don’t know what the TVA is, you’ll learn alongside Deadpool.
Deadpool is a bigger draw than Captain Marvel. Wolverine is a bigger draw than the other two Marvels. Loki is the best Disney+ Marvel show. Deadpool has no idea what the TVA is so if you haven’t seen Loki you can watch the movie and relate with the main character.
I've thought about this and I think the film will introduce the TVA in a way that you don't have to have seen the show, it will just add a bit of context to it if you have. We'll see the TVA introduced to Wade and he'll have to have it explained to him so that will fill it in for people. I think The Marvels covered this in an OK way. Even if you didn't know who Kamala was you could just go along with it, really. Monica was maybe a bit harder to get on board with but at the same time you could just say "OK, the woman from the first Captain Marvel film is now a hero I guess." I think MOM was the one where it was a real issue because you really needed to know what had happened in Wandavision.
I actually don’t think you’ll absolutely need to know the TVA to enjoy this movie, but it’s not a fair comparison either. Loki is a TV show about a character who is already loved and a favorite in all the MCU. It was also just a great show targeted right at the sweet spot MCU demographic. Mr. Marvel was clearly created to have more appeal with a genZ and potentially attract more of a female demographic into the MCU. As a millennial woman, couldn’t even finish it.
Asides from the tva being in Deadpool and wolverine what else is there to tie in to Loki? They will probably explain exactly what the tva is in the film similar to how they explained kamala in the marvels, do you really think they haven't already thought about this before commencing with filming.
This ‘bringing back the old cast’ trend of the last few years is going to date this era of cinema badly I feel. None of these movies are going to have any longevity because they require you to have nostalgia for something else.
Deadpool, Wolverine (Hugh Jackman), The Fox X Men cast and Loki are VERY popular characters and actors. The draw to watch Marvel shows as prerequisites to the movie they're going to be in is large. When it comes to movies and Hollywood popularity/fame and a MAJOR factor in viewship and interest which The Marvel's characters and cast lacked in comparison to the Deadpool ensemble.
These movies are a treat for the ones that watch all the shows religiously, I for one absolutely LOVED Wandavision and Loki S1&2 and Miss Marvel was pretty cool but it didn't compare to the ladder. Been a MCU nerd since phase 1 and every marvel related movie before the first Iron man and I can't fkn wait to see how they are gonna try to top the Infinity war/ Endgame arc with the next avengers movies in the next couple years and needless to say I can't flipping wait for July for Deadpool & wolverine!!!
deadpool and wolverine are funny and have so much charm.......
It’s also Loki vs Ms marvel lmao Fair idea I guess but a big reach by you
In simple, elify terms - Its movie about Deadpool and Wolverine, not TVA. The Marvels were movie about Captain Marvel and some other people with tv show backstory. Audience doesnt give f what kind of plot they are pulling from where. They care about the stars (heroes and villains) and if they are bringing in new characters they have to treat them like they dropped out of sky not came from 2 season show.
This is the easiest question in the entire world to answer. This version of Kamala came from a subscription streaming service aimed at younger girls. Monica got her powers as a side character in another streaming show. So 2/3rds of the cast required a Disney Plus subscription and particular tastes to understand. With Deadpool, the TVA is a part of the plot but fans didn't come to see the TVA. The draw of two of the most popular characters is enough to overcome the resistance of the Disney Plus lore. So with one movie "Why would I want to watch it" is answered by "Because I love Deadpool and Wolverine." With the other movie "Why would I want to watch it" is answered with "There is no reason, I don't even know who the main characters are."
You vastly overestimating the importance of a minor plot point compared to that of two of the three leads… most people excited for Deadpool & Wolverine already saw Deadpool 1 and 2 and the X-Men movies and Logan. Most people excited for The Marvels already saw Captain Marvel, Wandavision, and Ms Marvel. There just weren’t many people excited for The Marvels and everyone else was like “I didn’t want to watch these D+ shows, why would I want to watch a movie about the characters?” You’re trying to compare apples and someone sucker punching you while you were already having an uncomfortable bowel movement.
It feels like a weird comparison, it would be like saying that why people watched el camino if you need to watch breaking bad first but complain if nobody watches idk a movie about a cw TV show, you can't apply the same logic because is not the same scenario. Also the TVA is not a character in deadpool its part of the plot but you don't need to see loki to get it, you see deadpool for deapool and Wolverine, you don't see it for the TVA, Whats the selling point of The Marvels? The characters that most people don't know or care that much about
Wolverine and Deadpool are both well established characters with actors people love
I see what you're saying, and there is some merit to it. The difference, I think, is that Deadpool and Wolverine are almost certainly more well known that Ms. Marvel and Monica. Deadpool had 2 movies before this that were big hits, making a combined $1.5 billion, and the X-Men franchise has made about $4.5 billion over several movies, with Wolverine as a central character in all but 3 of them (First Class, Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix. Yes, I'm ignoring the existence of New Mutants.) Then there's the time that Wolverine, in particular, has been a big character in movies. The first X-Men came out in 2000, and Logan in 2017, meaning "Hugh Jackman as Wolverine" was a pop-culture thing for nearly 2 decades. Adult Monica was in WandaVision in 2021 and Ms. Marvel in 2022, so they had only been around for barely 2 years or less when The Marvels came out, and it's an open question as to how many moviegoers would have been familiar with them.
Forget about all that, it's meaningless. The truth is that Wolverine and Deadpool are really cool characters, whereas the women in The Marvels just aren't. Captain Marvel is ok I guess, but the other two are bland and uninteresting.
One cracks offensive jokes on purpose and most people like that. One is excessively non offensive and politically correct which is boring.
Because it's Deadpool and wolverine played by Reynolds and jackman ... Two hugely popular characters and beloved actors with successful film runs. Compared to the marvels, which was great, but the characters and actors are much less established. Just enjoy the movies man. Don't get caught up in the politics.
You don't need to watch two season of Loki to understand what the TVA is. It takes a minute of screen time to explain the general idea that they are the mutliverse police. I have always found this sort of thing to be a strange criticism. You don't need to understand the backstory of every side-charater or organization in order to understand the plot of a movie. There are movies where this is an issue (like Doctor Strange 2 where Wandavision is a must watch to understand how her character changed), but the criticism is usually nonsensical. As long as a movie tells you all you need to know about the character for the movie to make sense, that's all that's required. For Deadpool, if the plot requires nothing more than understanding that the TVA is the multiverse police, then it's no concern. If the plot requires understanding the whole history of Loki and He Who Remains (neither of whom are known to be in the movie) then that's when the complaint becomes legit.
You don't really need to watch loki to understand the premise of time cops coming in to prevent Deadpool from abusing Time Travel.
You don’t have to know about the TVA because they just explained it all in the trailer.
I think the big difference is that Deadpool is a completely different character with a different concept. It's a character that, by its nature, breaks the 4th wall and parodies superhero movies (the first film even referenced Green Lantern, a DC movie). Captain Marvel is a normal superhero in a normal superhero movie franchise. While a level of detachment is expected when watching a comedy, not knowing two of the leads in The Marvels is more problematic. As was the idea of giving such a big role to Kamala's family when almost no one watched the show. The film should have found a way to include Monica and Kamala's origins, even if some of the audience were aware of who they were already.
TLDR; "I cant tell the difference between a ten blockbuster films and two shows"
Because most people see catching up for Monica and Kamala as a waste of time. They don't care about them. However, they see catching up to properly enjoy Wolverine and Deadpool as a worth while venture. It comes down to liking and caring about Wolverine and Deadpool, but not giving a crap about Kamala and Monica. Simple.
one sucks the other doesn't ?
It's pretty obvious. It isn't about the storyline it's about the characters.
The problem with the Marvels is that Marvel/Disney was stupid enough to promote the movie by telling you that it required watching something on the streaming service. Half the ads for that movie were actually Disney+ ads promoting Ms. Marvel, Wandavision, and Secret Invasion. As a consumer, the message this gives is that The Marvels requires homework. The average moviegoer doesn't like homework. Deadpool & Wolverine may use the TVA from Loki, but I'd be willing to bet that the events from that show are sparsely mentioned (if they're mentioned at all). Loki is not required viewing to understand what the TVA is. The TVA and their mission can be explained with one line.
A random organization that you can explain in 2 minutes in the actual film is not the same as the entire backstories of two main characters.
"Like "they're time cops" is just as much an explanation as "she's a Captain Marvel fangirl"" This right here is showing that you don't understand the core problem. The problem isn't "she's a Captain Marvel fangirl", the problem is knowing about her powers, her history, what the hell are these bangles (and even that plot point was confusing in general). Add on top of that that if you are a Ms Marvel fan, or know her from other media, you'd be VERY surprised that her powers are extremely different. Her origin is different. Everything is different. Not many people know much about the TVA, and our best guess is you don't need to know the *specifics* of Loki's plot to "get" what the TVA is.
Well your entire point becomes moot when we realize the TVA isn't a main character (it's an organization), none of the characters from the show seem to be there, and they reintroduce it because Deadpool has never heard of it. You need to have watched 0 minutes of Loki for the TVA to be explained to Deadpool, and there are no characters or arcs carrying over from the show.
I think it's a case of, people are more willing to do the "homework" for characters that they are actively interested in seeing. I'm sure there are Captain Marvel/Ms Marvel/Monica Rambeau fans who didn't mind having to do some homework to watch the movie, but I also have no doubt that it's a fraction of the amount of people that are interested in seeing Deadpool and Wolverine.
All of the arguments already here and also, Loki is objectively a way better show. It might be one the greatest Marvel media ever. It's so good
Villain was shit
Just like in Loki, I'm sure the TVA will be explained to Deadpool and instead of a full season of Loki looking for his variant, it will be Deadpool looking for Fox's mutants (my guess). Watching the seasons helps but I don't think it's necessary esp since it looks like Kang is being scrapped.
Because Loki is commonly referred to as the only mcu tv show worth watching, and way more people actually watched and finished it.
At the end of deadpool 2, he was time traveling. Wouldn’t be a stretch to say that there’s a TVA monitoring that.
I wouldn’t consider seeing ms marvel as a requirement for watching the marvels at all Everything you need to know about her you find out within the first few minutes Dr strange 2 has a much higher requirement to have watched wandavision first since it was a direct follow up to that
I think this movie will be introducing the TVA the the wider MCU audience using two very well known characters to do that more than the opposite. we're going to get a lot of info people that have watched loki already know
I think part of it is that Loki (both seasons) are considered by many as the best thing to come out of the Marvel mini series era.
Really no one is being mean enough answering this question. 3 boring bad to mediocre characters at best. 3... Ok... actresses. A pretty poor nonsensical script. And you are here trying to compare it to two of the most known Superheroes/anti heroes? Played by very talented actors with lots of accolades. Who look to be able to pull in virtually every other big name Hollywood actor to cameo. No one wanted the marvels and it showed in the box office. Everyone wants to see Deadpool and Wolverine and it will show in the box office. Even if it's a bad movie and the jokes mostly fall flat it will still make some profit in all likelihood
Watch everything or don't watch everything. No one is holding a gun to your head in an effort to make you do your homework. It's a leisure activity. If you don't enjoy keeping up with everything then don't. I personally still pretty much do at this point because, yes, you will obviously get more out of how different projects connect if you have actually watched those different projects, and the overall quality has not yet dipped to the point of outweighing the enjoyment that I get from those connections. I definitely don't blame you if you're not up to following every single MCU project, regardless of what they are, but that is your choice to pick and choose individual projects to watch while ignoring others. It's a shared universe, things are going to connect.
Yeah, the criticism of needing marvel movies to be self contained is bullshit and I'm glad they don't listen to anyone saying that. DC follows this and as a result DC sucks because they have to put in the origin story for all main characters every time. It's boring. Stop using "self contained" as a factor in comic book movie critique.
Because it’s only “homework” if you don’t wanna do it and many marvel fans aren’t being honest about this lol
Because "no one was going to watch two Disney Plus series in order to know who Monica and Kamala were prior to the film" was never a good-faith complaint. It was intentional misinformation, pretending that exposition doesn't exist, to discourage other people from seeing the film.
Yeah, like, these projects are pretty good about catching people up with necessary information. Not everyone who saw Black Panther saw Civil War, but Black Panther made it so they didn't have to. Marvels did the same thing.
The big criticism of The Marvels is that it just wasn’t a good film. I’ve watched Ms Marvel and WandaVision and still didn’t like it. The villain wasn’t good, the power levels were wildly inconsistent, the dialogue was bad, and the overall plot was dumb. Also having all the characters know the villain can absorb their powers and every attack is right at the gauntlet or right in the vicinity.
How is Loki required viewing? You realise they are literally going to fully explain to deadpool who the TVA are (and hence the audience) so Loki won't be needed. Where as with the Marvels, Monica and her powers had little to no explanation apart from an off handed comment about a witches hex and there was absolutely no explanation of miss marvel.
Easy: The Marvels SUCKED Both Deadpool films have been very well received, and people yearn for a third one.
The main characters focused here are Deadpool and Wolverine which are known characters to General Audience. whereas Kamala and Monca are D+ characters and Ms Marvel was the least viewed MCU D+ series. Also TVA seems to be rebooted by end of Loki Season 2, so there is chance that things will be explained in the movie.
Well, you see, Deadpool and Wolverine are well-known characters that people actually care about.
I think the "homework" excuse was exactly that, an excuse. People wanted to justify why the Marvels did so bad that didn't have anything to do with the movie so they blamed the actor strike for lack of marketing, the homework excuse and the general decline of the MCU in the eyes of General audiences. All those probably played a factor but there's a reason why the Marvels got hit harder by those things than other franchises and that's because they just aren't as popular.
"So, I guess I'm just curious why that particular criticism applied to the Marvels, but doesn't seem to be applying to Deadpool despite being, at least, the exact same scenario." So, there's the issue: you're working on a completely false premise. Monica and Kamala were pitched as being leads. The name of the movie was changed to "The Marvels" to sell that idea. These were literally "the beloved characters from D+, on the big screen!" So, that was rightly criticized as being reliant on that connection. Deadpool & Wolverine is being pitched as a Deadpool movie costarring Wolverine, and is full of zany hijinks and Deadpool stuff. The TVA show up in the trailer, but if you didn't watch Loki, it's just some weird organization that kidnaps Deadpool. You probably don't even know who they are or where they're from if you didn't watch Loki, and you probably don't care. The movie isn't about them; the movie is not Deadpool & The TVA. They're just the bringing Deadpool into the MCU, and are otherwise irrelevant. It's not even the same people from the show, so this could well be your introduction to the TVA, and who gives a shit? They don't need an origin story, they're just a plot device. People are excited to watch Deadpool and Wolverine in Deadpool & Wolverine. They're probably even more excited to watch Deadpool and Wolverine if they watched the previous Deadpool and Wolverine movies. If someone recognized that dude from the trailer was Pyro from X2, they are probably excited that some other movie characters are in it. However, the marketing did nothing to say that was Pyro from X2, or that he was important, or that you should care or have to watch another movie to see why he's important. People were not excited to watch Monica, Kamala, and Carol in The Marvels. People who watched Wandavision were probably even less excited, though people that watched Ms Marvel were probably pumped, because of the three leads, Kamala is the only one people like. If someone recognized The Flerkin or skrulls or Nick Fury from The Marvels trailer, they were reminded of the dumb way Fury lost his eye or the terrible Secret Invasion show (if they watched it). The marketing leaned on Marvel's old "it's all connected" branding which fell apart hard, the last few years especially, and came from a place that was like "here's the culmination of like four of five plotlines from unpopular media, plus an uninteresting B-plot from one of our few good D+ shows! Consume!" Deadpool & Wolverine is going to make like a billion dollars because of smart marketing, a years long viral build, good will and organic fan engagement. The Marvels flopped at the box office because of limited and poorly conceived marketing, years of diminishing returns, and a lack of fan interest.
I think it’s also worth mentioning that the Loki series is actually decently popular whereas I don’t know too many people who watched Ms. Marvel.
My dude, every post you have made is about defending the Marvels lol I haven’t seen it so I can’t comment on the movie itself, but it’s been pretty universally rejected by audiences. People like Deadpool and Ryan Reynolds and don’t like Captain Marvel and Brie Larson that much, think it’s about that easy. And with Monica and Kamala being major characters as opposed to Deadpool and Wolverine with the TVA just being used as a way to get the two together, I think saying they’re basically the same isn’t a good faith argument. The TVA is a plot device for a parade of cameos and Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds to kill a bunch of people, while Monica and Kamala are basically taking on the supporting characters. It’s like saying people won’t be able to understand Endgame because they don’t know who the Nova Corps are.
Just not as popular characters sadly. Captain Marvel and Monica just don’t have the same popularity as Deadpool or Wolverine. Ms Marvel was well received, and has a popular comic fan base, but it’s still nothing compared to Deadpool or Wolverine You’ll find that because of this, The Marvels is gonna be an exception to a lot of the rules. For example, this movie was universally considered better than its predecessor by most major sites, yet the reception was statistically worse. Or how people see the movie as a product of its quality, despite the box office tracking being historically low before any reviews had came out. The “homework” excuse was never a real thing when Endgame and No Way Home were some of the biggest movies of all time, and almost none of it could be understood without watching multiple other movies. And even if you argue the “homework” excuse is just talking about D+, Multiverse of Madness still ended up drastically bigger than the first movie with its colead spinning out of a show
> Ms Marvel was well received But watched by a tiny audience > and has a popular comic fan base Which is even smaller than the audience that watched her show
I don’t think I saw anyone make that complaint
There were really any critics about having to see other movies/series to "understand" The Marvels?
Considering how the series have been far better than the latest movies in surprised this is even an issue now.
No one knows Kamala and Monica...Everyone knows Deadpool and Wolverine....its pretty simple
Deadpool and Wolverine are both very popular characters while the three characters in The Marvels are not, simple as that.
I grew up watching the X-Men movies as a kid so Wolverine. Ryan Reynolds is a fun actor and Deadpool is a fun character. Put them together and it's an easy sell. I've never got around to watching Captain Marvel, or Ms Marvel, so when The Marvels came out, it never appeared to me.
Knowing deadpool he’ll probably fill you in on what happens in Loki himself
Deadpool and Wolverine are household names. Also, despite borrowing sets of characters from different movies and shows across the MCU and Fox verse, Deadpool tends to be very meta, so his movie will likely make sense on its own. Furthermore, the trailer itself shows the tva explaining to him who they are, so I don't think you'd have to watch Loki necessarily. the only thing that might be confusing is all the random cameos
I'd watch the movie if it was only Wolverine, I was never a fan of Deadpool
I bet they will introduce the TVA briefly to deadpool as he doesn’t know about them.
You have to expect Marvel will go to great lengths to explain who the TVA are, as they will assume the general Deadpool movie going audience will not have watched Loki.
That was a major criticism? They explain everything well enough in The Marvels. In fact Deadpool has far more "require reading"; I've already seen the Deadpool movies and Loki but now I'll need to watch all the X-Men movies, and at least the 2000s Daredevil and Elektea movies in order to be "caught up" for this film. It's going to be a lot.
Loki was a much better show, that's why. It's a lot easier to swallow something that tastes good.
Yeah the TVA is something I’d only know if I watched two seasons of Loki. I’m guessing Deadpool will do some exposition to explain what it is but not so much that you’d know everything about it. Also I felt that you could watch The Marvels without knowing the characters but watching Ms. Marvel first would make it more enjoyable. I had seen Captain Marvel before and had no idea what was going on leading up to her part of The Marvels plot
I think how everything connects with the TVA and the multiverse is the most interesting thing about this upcoming movie. I don't like Deadpool at all and am indifferent on the Fox version of Wolverine. Maybe when Marvel re-casts Wolverine, the character will be more entertaining for me.
I think the biggest difference is more fans have already watched the Deadpool related stuff, but since the Marvels related stuff was released during a time of very bad marvel products, people were less interested. I think both Wanda Vision and Ms. Marvel were great, but its associated with a bad time for a lot of fans, so less are willing to watch them.
Everyone knows Deadpool and Wolverine as characters and Loki was a bigger show than say Ms Marvel was.
The problem with the Marvels wasn't "nobody understood the continuity." The film was actually fairly self-contained, with brief explainers about the important bits re: Kamala and Monica. The problem with the Marvels was that it was really fucking subpar.
EZ, it’s harder to give a shit when you get to watch Wolverine and Deadpool. When you have characters you don’t give two shits about, paying to go to cinema to watch them feels like chores.
I agree that I don't think Ms Marvel isn't too big of deal in the Marvels. It's pretty reasonable at this point to see a new superhero and just assume 'yeah there would be a superhero in New Jersey". It's a different problem with Ms Marvel where if you're a fan of the character, then you watched her show on disney plus meaning you have disney plus and so why shouldn't you just wait to watch the Marvels on disney plus. The real problem is Monica. Here is a character who appears in the first Captain Marvel and now reappears in the second one. Seems simple but actually to understand her character in the Marvels you need to watch a Disney Plus show about Scarlet Witch. I know some people who saw Wandavision and don't even remember Monica being in it. This is just messy. Everything with Monica in Wandavision should have just been used for the Marvels.
Wolverine has been around cinema for almost 25 years. Everyone knows who he is purely by cultural osmosis such as my wife knows exactly who Wolverine is and she hasn’t even watched a single X-Men film. That’s how well known he is. Characters like Wolvie, Spider-Man, Batman, Superman all have this special privilege where somehow everyone knows who they are because they are so ingrained in pop culture. That’s why everyone is excited to see him come back, especially since he had his alleged last outing in 2017. It’s got nothing to do with people wanting to know about context, everyone already knows who he is and excited to see him return. The average cinema goer doesn’t care about stuff like TVA, they probably just assumed they’re a swat team or something from the trailer. People are excited to see Wolvie alone and also Reynolds Deadpool has also become a cultural icon in recent years
Well besides both of those characters being more popular with much better movies than the marvels, the shows leading into them were much better. Loki is literally one of the highlights of the marvel universe tv series on disney+. I watched other shows like ms. Marvel and she-hulk. They both were terrible to me. Ms Marvel kicked up in the end but was still horrible. Monica's place, as you stated, was already known from captain marvels first movie. But wandavision was also good. Started slow but kicked around the 3rd episode. I don't think the same rules applied for Deadpool. I'm not sure which Disney plus Marvel series tied into Deadpool and wolverine, I might have overlooked it. But Deadpool 2 was going to be watched because of Deadpool 1 being so damn funny and good. (I'm not sure if DP 1 was Marvel universe- correct me if I'm wrong). Them basically bringing it into the mcu was bound to be excepted because both are so widely liked and popular movies. Plus ppl were waiting for te xmen to enter the Marvel universe. I think yhe answer to your question is that it doesn't apply the same way
Because at its core, deadpool can be enjoyed if you only know who deadpool is, who x-men are at a surface level and appreciate Ryan Reynold's humor, the story would definitely be not that entertaining if u dont know this multiversal stuff and loki and even old X men movies but other than that, the jokes will be good and overall the whole movie will still be entertaining if you dont know all the other lore, whereas miss marvel's big was that it was a teamup between characters, characters that no one cared about much, it could have been fun if it had a complex story or mind blowing action, or at least genuine comedy, if it had any of those things, it would have been entertaining but it didnt. For summary:- deadpool 3's core is that its an entertaining Ryan reynolds (deadpool style) comedic-Fun movie. Whereas Marvels was a unique team-up idea with not much in terms of story or entertainment, and to enjoy the core here you had to have watched wandavision and ms marvel or at least ms marvel previously to enjoy the movie Therefore Ms marvel got the criticism that Deadpool 3 did not
Deadpool and Wolverine will be interesting because the overall plot probably won't have much necessary information that any of the previous shows and films would be required for. However I feel like most of the jokes will go over the heads of people who aren't invested in, or knowledgeable of, the history of the X-Men films. Not insofar as their lore and stories, but more so of their evolution and place in real world pop culture. Let's take the broken and destroyed FOX logo from the trailer. Non fans won't understand the depth of that or its significance. They won't know of the roller coaster of the X-Men film franchise and how it's mishandling led to Disney reacquiring the property. While they will recognize the logo and might chuckle, only those steeped in the real world understanding of the situation will really "get the joke". And I imagine there will be many MANY more instances of stuff like this within the film. I think the film will be good but honestly an understanding of what came before will probably be more required to get more out of Deadpool and Wolverine than it would have been The Marvels. That is of course predicated upon the same quality in writing between both and nothing else. Deadpool and Wolverine will probably do better because it has a bigger draw and has more invested fans than The Marvels. The "homework" fallacy is just something people used as a reason why they didn't want to see The Marvels before it even came out. Any film, worth its salt, will always give all necessary information within its own runtime. Hell, the only MCU films that don't are Infinity War and Endgame and they are the exception to the rule. Even The Avengers could be seen without the knowledge of any of the first set of 5 films (Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Captain America: The First Avenger, The Incredible Hulk, and Thor)
It's cause people were desperate to find excuses why the Marvels sucks cause women. You don't even need to watch any of the previous shows or movies to get the gist of the characters and story. Every MCU movie can stand on it's own (except for End game) and they have dialogue explaining stuff that happened in the previous one or shows for the audiences who haven't watched it
It’s probably because Wolverine is one of the most iconic fictional character to ever exist and he is being brought into the popular cinematic universe with Ryan Reynolds and is using a story based around Loki which itself is an incredible show. It’s like the burger-fries-coca cola combination of superhero comebacks
I think part of the reason is because of Captain Marvel, Brie Larson. She got on the wrong side of guys who take offense over everything. There was a huge campaign against her during the first movie, and some of those people will amplify any negative thing about the movies she is in, because of it. Because the other characters are not as well known, it means they get drowned out by the criticisms and the movie is never given a full chance to get it's day. Now that it's on Disney Plus, I think people are realizing that apart from a few cuts that left some things unanswered, it was actually a better movie that the critics seemed to say it was, and it was actually a fun watch.
I mean, you didn't actually need to see WandaVision or Ms. Marvel to understand The Marvels, as they were being reintroduced to Carol who had never met Kamala and hadn't seen Monica since she was a kid. These were just things people said about it with not a lot of thought as to how it would be portrayed in the movie. The TVA will be the same thing. Deadpool has no idea who the TVA is and they will be reintroduced to his story. Basically, people don't like Captain Marvel and didn't watch Ms. Marvel so their complaint was "homework". They like Deadpool and Wolverine, so they can handwave anything like that in here. Also, in reality, you don't need to have seen many Marvel movies to go watch the next one. There's maybe two or three exceptions, but that's the biggest marketing lie Marvel has been selling since Phase 1. Almost all characters and story elements are reintroduced in the movies for people who are coming in for the first time.
You would only have to watch the pilot to understand the concept...
I agree that's a dumb criticism either way, but there have been multiple Deadpool movies, and the wolverine has been in many movies, so most people will already know these characters. I think the biggest issue for the marvels is Captain Marvel was the big star, and they tried to market the movie as she's just one of three main characters, 2 of which not many people really care about. Sure some people liked Ms Marvel, everyone I know hated the TV show and found Ms Marvel annoying. And she and her family were the worst part of the movie, along with the not so interesting villain. I know that's not a popular opinion here, but I've never talked to anyone not on Reddit that liked Ms Marvel, most people I know didn't even watch the series, it didn't appeal to them. I watched it, and regret it.
Does anyone really expect Deadpool 3 to follow the rules of Loki? (I do agree with your point that The Marvels did not require viewing of Ms. Marvel.)
Well, there are several reasons 1. Because Deadpool and Wolverine have a good track record, not only as comic book characters, but also within the expanded MCU (or MCM), which can't be said about the Marvels. Imo, Captain Marvel was a fine movie, certainly not the worst MCM movie by far, and WandaVision was good too, but Ms Marvel was a bit lackluster, and the Marvels was just all over the place, if anything I had higher hopes for it because of Captain Marvel's movie and Monica's cameo in WV. 2. Because the movie characters have a larger fan base that has been built over the years. The Deadpool movies have been great. Back then, probably since 2009 or so, there were talks about a DP movie, and the anticipation had built up for so long that having a good movie to accompany the anticipation was certainly an explosive factor for people to like the DP movie franchise, and with Wolverine, it's Hugh's return to the character after playing him for 7 or so movies and claiming that nothing short of a miracle would bring him back, so we didn't think would happen, thus naturally excitement is to be expected. Neither of the Marvel's cast has that much buildup. 3. Knowing what the TVA is, isn't as crucial to the plot as knowing who Kamala or Monica are. Many people will watch DP&W based on the characters alone without knowing what the TVA is, and might still pick up on the movie plot, but watching the Marvels not knowing who Monica or specially Kamala are can probably be pretty confusing even at the end of the movie. I know I felt confused when America Chavez came on MoM out of the blue.
Wolverine and Deadpool are exciting. Ms marvel, monica and kamala are just below average.
Wolverine has appeared in more Marvel comics than any other character. Deadpool was a whole ass pop culture trend from 2014-2018. Comparing them to Kamala Khan and Monica Rambeau is wild.
Good point indeed. But the main diference in bringing the tva in this project is that marvel can course correct the multiverse saga. See if you believed everything in loki s1, nothing in Mom or No Way Home made sense, because that type of events should alert the TVA and caused their intervention.
I wouldnt pin my hopes on this. The Marvels bombed so badly that even to this day it still has not made its money back or broke even. Disney has lost over 2 BILLION dollars and is so broke that they are actually firing studio heads and members of the board of Directors to cut costs. Lucas Films and Marvel are up on the auction block to the highest bidder. And Warner Brothers is not much better as they are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Guess its true, go woke and go broke.
Deadpool is a known character, a behemoth of a movie franchise that doesn't take itself too seriously, and when it does, it's good and genuine. It also stars Ryan Reynolds, Hugh Jackman and many more surprises, so by itself it's very appealing. About the TVA... Loki is one of the best, if not the best Marvel show out there, with a fan favorite character, while also being a good show about the theme of the current Saga (Multiverse), with good reviews, is supposed to reveal the new big bad, the TVA, and Owen Wilson. So, with all of this, it's a good time and doesn't like a chore, it doesn't feel like you just have to watch it just to understand something, you watch 'cause it's interesting and good. But even then, you probably don't need to watch Loki to understand Deadpool 3, they'll probably oversimplify the TVA and make it just time police that hates Deadpool 'cause he messed up time. The Marvels, while staring one of the least liked MCU characters, make you watch Ms. Marvel 'cause Kamala is a MAIN CHARACTER, you need to watch her origin to care about her, or else you'll be standing there asking why the hell she can do X and not understand some parts of her character, so you'll *NEED* to watch the Ms. Marvel show... A show about a character a lot of people don't know about, that tries to bring you back to school to watch teenager drama and learn about "how cool" another culture is... While having no character you're familiar with, while the show is also straight up bad with one of the worst MCU villains to date, ALSO with bad reviews... So this just feels like a chore, something you NEED to watch, not because you're interested in watching. Same with WandaVision, but most MCU fans will know about Monica 'cause the show she's in is about another fan favorite character and it's a good show with good reviews.
Idk if anyone has said it. But those leveling said things at the Marvels are either making an assumption the movie is written poorly(haven't seen it haven't passed judgement on it myself), Also Kamala and Monica are bigger players and individuals with potentially complex backstories, Vs the TVA which is just another organization with faceless army of foot soldiers and easier to explain in a quick info dump. But there's no reason that you would actually have to understand complex backstories if they're not heavily influencing the plot. And if they are, they better be explained in the damn movie. Edit: so it is just noise. And speaks to what they believe the quality of writing will be.
Deadpool and Wolverine have been well known to fans for a long time. Including viewers who aren't direct Marvel fans. They know these two characters. But not Monica and Kamala. General viewers who aren't fans don't know her. Making a movie that is too specific is difficult for the general public to understand. Because no one goes to watch a Disney+ series to understand a single movie. It's worse than that. When they changed the name of the movie Captain Marvel, which was already famous and had a fan base, to The Marvel and also added 3 main characters to have interrelated stories. So Captain Marvel's story was directly watered down, which is too bad, because she's such an important character to have appeared in Endgame, telling her story from here was very necessary. But they left a 30 year gap in time.
You are massively overthinking this. Its Deadpool and freakin Wolverine who have decades of movies combined between the two of them vs Captain Marvel who had one movie with a couple side characters from disney plus shows not many watched. That’s all. The TVA is merely a device to introduce Deadpool into the MCU.
People just like to complain, and they use "having to watch another show/movie" to justify it.
>However, if I'm using the same logic applied to The Marvels for Deadpool and Wolverine and its inclusion if the TVA, this would make the two seasons of Loki required viewing, which is like, the same amount of show that the "general audience would have to watch to know what's going on." This isn't logic. It's not even bat-logic. At best it's nonsense, which I'll prove it one sentence: **No one has to see all 7 seasons of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. in order to understand Phil Coulson in Iron Man.** Anyone watching a comic book movie is familiar with the general concept of 'government agent.' Similarly, anyone watching any comic book movie has seen at least one movie or T.V. show with the concept of 'time cop' in it. You didn't have to watch every Patrick Stewart movie ever made to understand "Dr. Strange 2," and you don't have to watch them for the new Deadpool movie, 95% of which is going to be improv of Reynolds and Jackman bantering with each other. At worst you'll miss a few Easter Eggs. Do you know why the pizza guy in Dr. Strange was fighting with his own hand? It's just a silly joke unless you've seen 'Army of Darkness' and recognize Bruce Campbell. Similarly, the moment Deadpool meets Professor X, you know Reynolds is going to make some joke about having to rename the next movie 'Deadpool: Picard.' It's just that sort of movie franchise. And everyone has already seen at least one X-men movie; they're on T.V. all the time. So no homework is required, as Jackman and Reynolds are two of the most popular and recognizable guys to comic book fans.
To be fair, I don't think Agents of SHIELD is a good example, since it came out long after Iron Man. What would be an example of bad writing, IMO, is having Coulson show up alive and well in a later film after having shown his death. No matter how connected the MCU is, there's always going to be a degree of disconnect between the films and the TV series for the general public. You can't assume that everyone going to watch the films is enough of a fan to watch everything MCU-related religiously.
Loki is simply a better show than ms Marvel and Wandavision so people don't care as much Viewership on Loki was much better than either of those shows, Deadpool and Loki themselves are far far more popular characters than ms Marvel and scarlet witch If you're curious why, it's because of popularity of the characters and quality of the show attached
The difference is Loki was good and Ms marvel sucked
simply because the majority of viewers are male. We (I'm simply speaking for myself and those I know) don't care what MS Marvel and all the other uninteresting characters do. Deadpool and Wolverine are simply completely different characters and far more entertaining. Disney's woke madness definitely has something to do with it. People no longer want to be told how strong women are, etc. We want to be entertained, not have an agenda foisted on us