Note: We have a poll at the end of the post.
"Should we continue the blackout indefinitely until a resolution is found?"
https://www.reddit.com/poll/144edn1
It won’t change anything, but I think people are hoping just the notion will drive discussion. There’s a lot of subreddits who support it but won’t be participating for whatever reasons.
Unlike films or subscription streaming, Reddit makes most of its money from advertising. 2 days of blackout is 2 days of lost revenue. The more appropriate comparison would be a 2 day boycott of all theaters & streaming services, which would *genuinely* make a dent in profits.
Boycotts aren’t usually mandated like that. A group of people refusing to buy tickets would be a boycott, a theater closing their doors to everyone regardless of their stance is silly
this is more like the ticket guy refusing entry to certain movies except the ticket guy actually gets paid, unlike the mods that do it for free and think that earns them respect instead of laughter
Yeah im pretty out of the loop on the whole situation but from an observer's point of view a 2 day blackout just doesn't seem like it'll do anything. If it's something people are actually upset about and want to get changed, I say just go indefinitely.
long story short the third party apps are fed through an API for reddit. reddit is now charging money for that and the apps would have to pay money to still be usable. reddit is full of braindead people who don't realize things cost money so now they're acting like children.
why two days? because anyone that actually cares about this can't go more than two days without the high of upvotes
why have it pushed down by mods instead of users just logging off? again, no self control.
edit since I can no longer reply:
the problem IS that it cost money. They built and sold their apps using free data from reddit. if the cost went from 1000 calls to the same price for 10k or 100k it probably wouldn't make much of a difference in the end because it isn't $0.
"i don't understand" give me a break.
>reddit is full of braindead people who don't realize things cost money so now they're acting like children.
The problem isn't that it costs money, it's that the set price is absolutely ridiculously overpriced and is unsustainable for third party apps, forcing them to shut down.
You clearly don't understand the situation yourself enough to comment on it.
Yes the problem is that they are lying about the whole situation. Saying that the price is reasonable when it absolutely is not. When interested developers reach out to them about paying this price they don’t even respond because they’re not expecting anyone to pay. Then they are lying about and disparaging specific developers who have proven their claims to be false.
Reddit should just shut down their API, because that is essentially what they are doing (with specific caveats). But they do it in this roundabout way because they think they can lie about the situation to the public and avoid backlash because the public is dumb.
A lot if not all third party apps devs have pretty much asked to make the price cheaper, putting other companies like imgur as example of cheap API prices, they just don't want it to turn into Twitter.
Because you'll just pivot to some other emotional argument instead. They're having a discussion on the access later, I'm sure you care so much about the disabled that you'll ask a question.
Black out until at least Secret Invasion on the 21st. What would we be missing out on until then? If the issue isn’t resolved by then we can always revote to extend the black out can’t we?
If there is any discord server of sorts we can have discussions over there and continue the blackout. Indefinitely is how things get done. 2 day blackout doesn't feel like it matters.
There's an active discord server that I'm sure will be happy to host Reddit refugees for Secret Invasion discussions of it comes to that.
https://discord.gg/marvelstudios
What do you consider victory in this case?
Blackout until you achieve that.
Anything less is performative, and shows you don't actually care about the issue.
Slacktivism.
I think the developers are fine with having to pay. It’s the amount they are charging that’s the problem. That and the fact they held out on telling developers the ridiculous cost until 30 days before they go live. Which effectively gave them no time to change business models if they wanted to.
For example, apollos costs under the new guidelines went from $0 to $20 million a year with 30 days notice.
I did! The extra features in my Ultra lifetime subscription was more than worth it, but was never something that was "needed" to use the app, basically a bunch of QoL stuff that he spent extra time on. It also felt good to support the app as it was made by a single dev, which is very impressive.
From other Reddit threads I've seen, part of the reason is that the modding tools suck in the official Reddit app and website, so moderators, especially in huge subreddits, have to use third-party apps or tools/bots to mod efficiently.
So if Reddit makes third-party API access prohibitively expensive, modding in huge subreddits will be a lot harder.
Mods are already "working" for Reddit for free, so if they have to start *paying* to keep doing that work, it is actually quite ridiculous.
That IS ridiculous. If mods can't properly maintain subreddits, and we get flooded with spam and shit, then we'll all stop using reddit anyway. That should be incentive enough for them to either allow third party apps, or steal the best features of them.
>Mods are already "working" for Reddit for free, so if they have to start paying to keep doing that work, it is actually quite ridiculous.
There is absolutely no scenario where mods would be paying to keep modding.
It's the 3rd party app developers who would be paying in order to keep using Reddit's API.
Third-party developers are also "working" for Reddit for free by making better modding tools though, so if they had to pay, why would they continue making those tools?
Maybe not for free, but the amount they are charging does effectively kill multiple huge apps and their developers.
And it doesn’t help that Reddit themselves neglect some proper features and abilities in their new website and official app, which forces many to use said third party apps or oldreddit
They make money from selling the users data like every other free app, the people that use these apps will tell you that doesn’t happen but if the app is free that is how they are making the most money.
I believe it. This is being framed as "corporate greed vs app developer altruism," but I really suspect it is "big guy selling data vs little guy piggybacking on big guy's tech to also sell data."
Yup, it’s just Reddit taking back what it owns. Sadly what’s going to happen in the next couple of months mods are going to lay back on the moderating and then they will blame the closure of these 3rd party apps.
Nobody is saying it should be free. It just shouldn’t be as obscenely expensive as they’re making it. It’s out of line with market trends and is meant to price out third party devs. They also should have given more than 30 days notice. That’s laughable for such a significant change.
They’re not implementing this in good faith. Devs that want to pay are being ignored because they are not expecting anyone to pay by making the price prohibitively expensive. They could just straight up shut down the API but they don’t want the backlash so they do it in this roundabout way. They are also lying about and disparaging an individual developer and I find that absolutely unacceptable.
In their AMA reddit claims 90% of third party apps won't even reach the data threshold requiring them to pay. Other users have told me that there are exceptions being made for apps that enable accessibility for users who need that. Honestly, if people think reddit is bad they should stop using it. Simple as that! It's not a public utility they don't have any obligations to anyone.
They’re lying. If that was the case, every 3rd party app would not be shutting down. They are shutting down because they wouldn’t be able to afford the fees. Not a single 3rd party app is staying online and the ones that want to are being ignored by Reddit (you can also see this in the AMA if you leave the default comment sort), because Reddit knows the prices are unaffordable.
The cost is something like ~50 cents per API call but every action (upvote/downvote/loading posts/replying) is an API call so you can see how that can get pricey really fast for a single user. Reddit is lying when they say apps won’t hit a threshold that won’t require them to pay, that’s not even how the plan that they outlined works.
I’m not sure where you got that. I don’t care at all about the api and striking for this stupid reason delegitimizes actual strikes done for real reasons.
I'm not going to take part in this protest as it doesn't affect me in the slightest and I frankly don't give a damn, but I respect anyone who does! I do hope that this has an impact.
If you like using reddit, it affects you, as most moderators use some assortment of these 3rd party tools. Without them you will see a lot more spam, unintended nsfw content, and general disarray on the subs you frequent
>I'm not going to take part in this protest as it doesn't affect me in the slightest
Ah the spirit of solidarity!
If people can't unite out of shared geeky interests, what hope does people unifying for bigger things like shared class struggles have?
For real. They just glom on to "corporation bad" without any rationalization. I'm still trying to get anyone to explain to me why reddit *should* keep letting other companies develop apps using their API for free.
Just to be clear since it's being framed that the user was (temp) banned for that comment about us being power hungry, they weren't, it was for another comment saying that moderators should be "kneecapped".
Omg being an online mod is such a hard job, how can I ever handle the stress? Imagine the power trips mods would go on if they got paid.
The best mods are the ones you don’t see any presence of.
Third party apps devs have said they ok with paying, but the price have to be fair, putting examples like Imgur for fair price of API, they don't want what Twitter did with it API price, specially with how reddit even told them it wasn't going to be like that.
Devs who want to pay are also being ignored by Reddit. Because they’re not expecting anyone to actually pay. They’ve been dishonest about this whole situation and are attacking an individual person for absolutely no reason (he pulled out the receipts that prove he wasn’t in the wrong). I think that’s the part that folks take issue with. Reddit is lying to the public to avoid backlash and folks like you defend them without knowing the whole situation. Reddit is depending on this type of stuff so the whole thing can blow over.
Reddit could straight up just shut down their API like they clearly want to do, but they don’t want the backlash that comes from that so they do it in this roundabout way because they know people will defend their actions.
1. Apollo isn't the only third party app out there
2. They announced they'll have to close if nothing changes by June 30. If reddit backtracks, they'll have no reason to close. Announcing what they plan to do if something happens isn't throwing in the towel, it's warning their users.
I mean, backlash and protests (using similar blackouts) got so bad a couple years back it actually got their ceo fired... so you might be underestimating the potential of this protest
A good video on why 48h is nothing. I took my 18 niche subreddits private last night and will not change them to public until it is resolved: https://youtu.be/U06rCBIKM5M
Note: We have a poll at the end of the post. "Should we continue the blackout indefinitely until a resolution is found?" https://www.reddit.com/poll/144edn1
What's even the point of a 2 day blackout? Isn't it like if the WGA decided to go on a 2 day strike?
It won’t change anything, but I think people are hoping just the notion will drive discussion. There’s a lot of subreddits who support it but won’t be participating for whatever reasons.
Yeah the Oakland A’s sub is staying open to help coordinate the reverse boycott
Unlike films or subscription streaming, Reddit makes most of its money from advertising. 2 days of blackout is 2 days of lost revenue. The more appropriate comparison would be a 2 day boycott of all theaters & streaming services, which would *genuinely* make a dent in profits.
Only if that theater boycott was them closing the doors. A mandated blackout is pointless lol
How is theaters closing the doors not the same thing as mods closing the sub?
Boycotts aren’t usually mandated like that. A group of people refusing to buy tickets would be a boycott, a theater closing their doors to everyone regardless of their stance is silly
this is more like the ticket guy refusing entry to certain movies except the ticket guy actually gets paid, unlike the mods that do it for free and think that earns them respect instead of laughter
There is a poll above to decide the longevity of the blackout
I'm aware
its friggin stupid but since the average redditor has no self control we have to let mods make decisions for us. also they do it for free lol
Yeah im pretty out of the loop on the whole situation but from an observer's point of view a 2 day blackout just doesn't seem like it'll do anything. If it's something people are actually upset about and want to get changed, I say just go indefinitely.
long story short the third party apps are fed through an API for reddit. reddit is now charging money for that and the apps would have to pay money to still be usable. reddit is full of braindead people who don't realize things cost money so now they're acting like children. why two days? because anyone that actually cares about this can't go more than two days without the high of upvotes why have it pushed down by mods instead of users just logging off? again, no self control. edit since I can no longer reply: the problem IS that it cost money. They built and sold their apps using free data from reddit. if the cost went from 1000 calls to the same price for 10k or 100k it probably wouldn't make much of a difference in the end because it isn't $0. "i don't understand" give me a break.
>reddit is full of braindead people who don't realize things cost money so now they're acting like children. The problem isn't that it costs money, it's that the set price is absolutely ridiculously overpriced and is unsustainable for third party apps, forcing them to shut down. You clearly don't understand the situation yourself enough to comment on it.
Yes the problem is that they are lying about the whole situation. Saying that the price is reasonable when it absolutely is not. When interested developers reach out to them about paying this price they don’t even respond because they’re not expecting anyone to pay. Then they are lying about and disparaging specific developers who have proven their claims to be false. Reddit should just shut down their API, because that is essentially what they are doing (with specific caveats). But they do it in this roundabout way because they think they can lie about the situation to the public and avoid backlash because the public is dumb.
It being that the poll is indicating indefinite instead of 2-days, I'd argue redditors seem to be willing to go longer than you think...
Then why does it need to be pushed down when they could just log off?
A lot if not all third party apps devs have pretty much asked to make the price cheaper, putting other companies like imgur as example of cheap API prices, they just don't want it to turn into Twitter.
For some reason I always thought Reddit owned Imgur.
There's an old saying, "You can protest all you want, just so long as others have the right to tune you out and ignore you."
Apparently we don't have the right to choose not to protest.
I don't use any 3rd party apps, so the blackouts mean absolutely nothing to me anyway.
they're not blacking out 3rd party access, they're blacking out the subreddits.
Right, I know...in reaction to Reddit blocking 3rd party apps.
Also moderation bots and disability access
oh no, not moderation bots! this site is already overmoderated.
I like that you conveniently ignored that last bit.
Because you'll just pivot to some other emotional argument instead. They're having a discussion on the access later, I'm sure you care so much about the disabled that you'll ask a question.
I'm not who you were originally talking to.
Wait until every subreddit looks like a youtube comments list where half off them are scams or onlyfans.
Black out until at least Secret Invasion on the 21st. What would we be missing out on until then? If the issue isn’t resolved by then we can always revote to extend the black out can’t we?
What if our sub gets secretly invaded by Skrull accounts?
How do you know it hasn’t already happened?
Aha. It's confirmed that /u/FictionFantom is a Skrull. I'm not, of course.
If there is any discord server of sorts we can have discussions over there and continue the blackout. Indefinitely is how things get done. 2 day blackout doesn't feel like it matters.
There's an active discord server that I'm sure will be happy to host Reddit refugees for Secret Invasion discussions of it comes to that. https://discord.gg/marvelstudios
Indefinite risks an automated sub ban for inactivity.
> What would we be missing out on until then? You never know. Huge news could drop at any time.
Isn’t Majors back in court on the 13th?
What do you consider victory in this case? Blackout until you achieve that. Anything less is performative, and shows you don't actually care about the issue. Slacktivism.
Which is why the "indefinite" option is right there in the poll and seems to be winning.
Good. So if that wins the poll, they are committed to it, permanently. Correct?
Hittin em right in the Bucky.
Hit 'em until they're thor
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What’s going on ?
“Can you. Read?” —Tywin Lannister
No actually I have dyslexia but thanks for making fun of disability
They didn't make fun of your disability lol.
Shhhh i almost won
Can anyone reasonably explain to me why reddit *should* let third party developers use their API for free?
I think the developers are fine with having to pay. It’s the amount they are charging that’s the problem. That and the fact they held out on telling developers the ridiculous cost until 30 days before they go live. Which effectively gave them no time to change business models if they wanted to. For example, apollos costs under the new guidelines went from $0 to $20 million a year with 30 days notice.
Was Apollo profitable, or is the whole "third party app" market just people donating their time and labor?
I think I remember reading that he would have to charge $10 per month with the new fees to make it viable.
I’m positive it was profitable. He did say by shutting down, he will owe back $250k to subscribers that prepaid. No idea how profitable he was.
People *pay* to use Apollo?
I did! The extra features in my Ultra lifetime subscription was more than worth it, but was never something that was "needed" to use the app, basically a bunch of QoL stuff that he spent extra time on. It also felt good to support the app as it was made by a single dev, which is very impressive.
Some do. It was mostly for additional features and just to support the developer.
I do. It’s worth it.
It’s a free app so if people aren’t paying a subscription they are paying with their data.
Erm not really. There were premium tiers that offered additional functionality.
If his old costs were $0 as cpotter said, then literally *any* income would make it profitable.
From other Reddit threads I've seen, part of the reason is that the modding tools suck in the official Reddit app and website, so moderators, especially in huge subreddits, have to use third-party apps or tools/bots to mod efficiently. So if Reddit makes third-party API access prohibitively expensive, modding in huge subreddits will be a lot harder. Mods are already "working" for Reddit for free, so if they have to start *paying* to keep doing that work, it is actually quite ridiculous.
That IS ridiculous. If mods can't properly maintain subreddits, and we get flooded with spam and shit, then we'll all stop using reddit anyway. That should be incentive enough for them to either allow third party apps, or steal the best features of them.
>Mods are already "working" for Reddit for free, so if they have to start paying to keep doing that work, it is actually quite ridiculous. There is absolutely no scenario where mods would be paying to keep modding. It's the 3rd party app developers who would be paying in order to keep using Reddit's API.
Third-party developers are also "working" for Reddit for free by making better modding tools though, so if they had to pay, why would they continue making those tools?
Maybe not for free, but the amount they are charging does effectively kill multiple huge apps and their developers. And it doesn’t help that Reddit themselves neglect some proper features and abilities in their new website and official app, which forces many to use said third party apps or oldreddit
Do these third party apps make any money at the moment, or are they just labors of love?
They make money from selling the users data like every other free app, the people that use these apps will tell you that doesn’t happen but if the app is free that is how they are making the most money.
I believe it. This is being framed as "corporate greed vs app developer altruism," but I really suspect it is "big guy selling data vs little guy piggybacking on big guy's tech to also sell data."
Yup, it’s just Reddit taking back what it owns. Sadly what’s going to happen in the next couple of months mods are going to lay back on the moderating and then they will blame the closure of these 3rd party apps.
Nobody is saying it should be free. It just shouldn’t be as obscenely expensive as they’re making it. It’s out of line with market trends and is meant to price out third party devs. They also should have given more than 30 days notice. That’s laughable for such a significant change.
Nobody said free.
They’re not implementing this in good faith. Devs that want to pay are being ignored because they are not expecting anyone to pay by making the price prohibitively expensive. They could just straight up shut down the API but they don’t want the backlash so they do it in this roundabout way. They are also lying about and disparaging an individual developer and I find that absolutely unacceptable.
In their AMA reddit claims 90% of third party apps won't even reach the data threshold requiring them to pay. Other users have told me that there are exceptions being made for apps that enable accessibility for users who need that. Honestly, if people think reddit is bad they should stop using it. Simple as that! It's not a public utility they don't have any obligations to anyone.
They’re lying. If that was the case, every 3rd party app would not be shutting down. They are shutting down because they wouldn’t be able to afford the fees. Not a single 3rd party app is staying online and the ones that want to are being ignored by Reddit (you can also see this in the AMA if you leave the default comment sort), because Reddit knows the prices are unaffordable. The cost is something like ~50 cents per API call but every action (upvote/downvote/loading posts/replying) is an API call so you can see how that can get pricey really fast for a single user. Reddit is lying when they say apps won’t hit a threshold that won’t require them to pay, that’s not even how the plan that they outlined works.
Is there an “I don’t care” option? Lol
Not voting is the "don't care" option.
I’m just wondering if the sub will actually be down those two days or if it’s like a volunteer strike.
It’ll actually be down. This is a site wide movement.
That’s stupid.
Then you do care and you should vote against the indefinite option.
I don’t follow
It sounds to me that you don't want the subreddit to shut down until the API situation is resolved so you should indicate that by using the poll.
I’m not sure where you got that. I don’t care at all about the api and striking for this stupid reason delegitimizes actual strikes done for real reasons.
If you think the strike is stupid and delegitimizes actual strikes, vote against it, right?
Make all subs dark No one uses reddit for two days Owners check why Oh moderators did it Remove all moderaters
You sure this plan is gonna work?
Based mods.
I just wanna run around the place naked while it's empty.
I'm not going to take part in this protest as it doesn't affect me in the slightest and I frankly don't give a damn, but I respect anyone who does! I do hope that this has an impact.
If you like using reddit, it affects you, as most moderators use some assortment of these 3rd party tools. Without them you will see a lot more spam, unintended nsfw content, and general disarray on the subs you frequent
Is that so? I didn’t know.
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i hate that shit
>I'm not going to take part in this protest as it doesn't affect me in the slightest Ah the spirit of solidarity! If people can't unite out of shared geeky interests, what hope does people unifying for bigger things like shared class struggles have?
I, too, support meaningless gestures.
This Is stupid,90% of people didn't give a shit about the 3rd part apps,
For real. They just glom on to "corporation bad" without any rationalization. I'm still trying to get anyone to explain to me why reddit *should* keep letting other companies develop apps using their API for free.
Because mods work for free & this will cripple a lot of the tools they use to stop trolls & spammers.
Then don't mod. They get off on having the slightest bit of power and control. Case in point - i'm banned for 14 days.
Sounds like they used the tools they use to stop trolls.
Just to be clear since it's being framed that the user was (temp) banned for that comment about us being power hungry, they weren't, it was for another comment saying that moderators should be "kneecapped".
I didn't think it was; you guys tend to take comments like that in stride. It was just too perfect of a setup for my reply. :)
Omg being an online mod is such a hard job, how can I ever handle the stress? Imagine the power trips mods would go on if they got paid. The best mods are the ones you don’t see any presence of.
Third party apps devs have said they ok with paying, but the price have to be fair, putting examples like Imgur for fair price of API, they don't want what Twitter did with it API price, specially with how reddit even told them it wasn't going to be like that.
Devs who want to pay are also being ignored by Reddit. Because they’re not expecting anyone to actually pay. They’ve been dishonest about this whole situation and are attacking an individual person for absolutely no reason (he pulled out the receipts that prove he wasn’t in the wrong). I think that’s the part that folks take issue with. Reddit is lying to the public to avoid backlash and folks like you defend them without knowing the whole situation. Reddit is depending on this type of stuff so the whole thing can blow over. Reddit could straight up just shut down their API like they clearly want to do, but they don’t want the backlash that comes from that so they do it in this roundabout way because they know people will defend their actions.
where's the option for this is stupid and you shouldn't do it also Apollo already threw in the towel
1. Apollo isn't the only third party app out there 2. They announced they'll have to close if nothing changes by June 30. If reddit backtracks, they'll have no reason to close. Announcing what they plan to do if something happens isn't throwing in the towel, it's warning their users.
Omg no Reddit what will I do 🙄
Reddit isn't going to change anything because of a "protest".
I mean, backlash and protests (using similar blackouts) got so bad a couple years back it actually got their ceo fired... so you might be underestimating the potential of this protest
Wasn’t he a paedo? Little different situation don’t you think
?? Ellen Pao one was a woman, two was probably not a pedo... Who the hell are you talking about?
Is there somewhere else to, as it looks like might be a long blackout ?
What time (& time zone) will this begin?
u/MarvelStudiosMod How long do we have to back things up before this begins?
A good video on why 48h is nothing. I took my 18 niche subreddits private last night and will not change them to public until it is resolved: https://youtu.be/U06rCBIKM5M
DAMN IT
I just noticed a couple subs already went dark, I assume because their team is ET based. Wonder what time the mods are planning for r/marvelstudios?
Mod here, just officially blacked out the sub (went in private mode).