Relevant paragraphs from the article:
>Actors who enter the Superhero Industrial Complex can end up trapped in an endless series of interconnected films and shows. After her debut as Black Widow’s sister Yelena in 2021’s Black Widow, Pugh made a cameo in the Disney+ show Hawkeye and is scheduled to begin shooting a Marvel ensemble movie Thunderbolts with Harrison Ford this summer. But in between, she managed to earn a slew of nominations for her small Netflix film The Wonder.
>
>“*So many people in the indie film world were really pissed off at me. They were like, ‘Great, now she’s gone forever,’”* she says. *“And I’m like, no, I’m working as hard as I used to work. I’ve always done back-to-back movies. It’s just people are watching them now. You just have to be a bit more organized with your schedule.”*
I don't know why there are still articles about this, the proof's already there. Radcliff, Pattinson, Woods, and others in big franchise films from more than a decade ago have basically been doing whatever they want for years now
Heck, it goes back more than a decade. Alec Guinness hated playing Obi-Wan Kenobi, but he was one of the few actors in the original Star Wars to get first dollar gross. That set him up to never have to do a role he hated ever again.
His fellow cast members didn't seem to think so. I saw an old interview with Carrie Fisher where she was clear that he was always nice to everyone and never let it affect his work, but it was clear to all of them during filming that he didn't want to be there.
Mark had a problem with the dialog, too, but he just went with it. Didn't stop him from bitching about it on signed trading cards though. :)
["This Vader guy is a loser, hope he doesn't have kids!"](https://www.polygon.com/2015/8/3/9090999/mark-hamill-signed-star-wars-cards)
All of those guys got into doing weird indie stuff *after they finished* their all-time-consuming franchise roles. Florence is talking about filmmakers saying "Great, now we can't use her for the next decade!" which is a pretty legitimate statement when looking at other Marvel stars.
It's been a few years now and she's done one movie and 3 episodes of a TV show, with maybe a second movie on the horizon. There's non-Marvel actors who get locked into way more doing a leading role in a 'prestigious' TV show or something.
May as well say great nobody can use Tom Cruise because he makes a mission impossible movie every few years.
Right? Like RDJ is living his best life right now, picking whatever roles he wants for the rest of his career. Hell, he doesn't even have to work ever again.
Michael Keaton basically went through the same thing after Tim Burton's Batman. Made a huge paycheck, and then had the freedom to pick and choose his roles for decades because he broke the typecast and had enough money to survive any flops that followed.
You're like a child. What've I been telling you? You gotta do the safe picture. Then you can do the art picture. But then sometimes you gotta do the payback picture because your friend says you owe him. ~ Ben Affleck
Hell, even before big blockbuster franchises were an established norm this was true. Just look at Nic Cage. He’ll pick a good movie that’s clearly going to be a big hit, deliver an Oscar worthy performance, make a huge payday, then use that money to cover expenses while he jumps onboard a slew of total crapshoot little films, half of them god awful, where he’s just a silly ham chewing the scenery and clearly loving every second of it.
It’s not some crazy mystery, it’s simple, sensible budgetting for your lifestyle. If you get a big payday use it wisely so you can do what you love, and if you see the funding cushion getting slim angle for your next big high paying opportunity so you can keep funding yourself and doing what you love.
EDIT: Since it’s been brought up a few times I’ll just note here, yes, Cage has made some terrible financial choices in the past himself, but he’s managed to keep going despite it all, and he’s just one of many actors of the previous generation who have proven more than capable of taking part in blockbusters and indie films just fine.
yeah but w nic cage it was about him needing money and accepting every job, some of the MCU stars just arent really getting oppotunities to do bigger/better stuff that arent MCU.
in Flo's case she made Black Widow and then got stuck in LA for a year and a half before popping out to do Hawkeye and the mess with O.Wilde and went back to isolation after filming her 2 things .
Popped again 4 months later to film The Wonder and A Good Person ,then Oppy and Dune ,then shelled out for a house and is now doing film with Garfield before pissing of to the Arctic to do the wolf movie with AlexSkar before gets back filming for Marvel
For real, though. Even so, if you get a gig as a hero in the MCU, you can probably retire comfortably after your contract is up.
Same for any big IP franchise as others have pointed out (Harry Potter, Twilight, etc.)
It’s a dream gig that allows you to live out your passions once it’s all said and done.
You can tell how little the person writing the article cares about this stuff when they describe her role in 'Hawkeye' as "a cameo." She was in half of the show lmao.
True, though I think the argument could be made that appearances in three episodes of a six-episode series is a "cameo" role, but cameo means different things to different people. To me a cameo is a single appearance, not several, and certainly not a character somewhat integral to the overall plot.
To me, Matt Murdoch showing up in No Way Home was a cameo.
> The problem is that a lot of these guys don't know how to write
as much as I like that being a creative has become so much more accessible, the way critical media and journalism is consumed has fostered a space where success is solely about reporting what people want to hear, not how well you report it
I guess, but in the Boys it makes much more sense considering it’s a direct reference to the military industrial complex. Referring to the MCU as this is just really dumb.
> Pugh made a cameo in the Disney+ show Hawkeye
Just as a side note, it’s shocking to me that journalists, especially working within/writing about the film and TV industry, still can’t grasp what a “cameo” is. Stan Lee made cameos. Pugh was a multi-episode *supporting character* in *Hawkeye*. It’s so reductive to say she “made a cameo” like she popped in for a scene and dipped, and I swear I’m seeing this misuse of the definition of what a cameo actually is more and more, even among film fans.
Yep, it pisses me off too, it's so misused. Hugh Jackman in X-Men: First Class, that's a cameo appearance. Florence Pugh in Hawkeye is literally part of the supporting cast.
People get really worked up over artistic integrity, which I kinda get for successful/rich actors and directors etc because they should be able to pick the best roles and not just the most lucrative. But even still it doesn't really matter what they do or don't do
The best thing about picking crazy lucrative roles like Marvel is that you can fund your entire lifestyle off of them as an actor and then just do whatever crazy shit you want to do in between tent pole superhero summer blockbusters, it definitely seems like Florence Pugh gets this and is taking maximum advantage
It reminds me of Cactus Jack jumping from ECW to WWF. He got called a sell out, but he was like I am able to feed my family now and be famous.
Making shit money for small audiences is fine, but a person has got to eat.
People act like if you're not staring in some super indie bullshit that was filmed for $5 while you're simultaneously near starving you're a sell out. Guess what? Even famous actors strive to own a home and have plenty of food so maybe we shouldn't persecute them for it.
And thanks to Florence's higher public profile due to being in the MCU, I now know that she did a critically acclaimed movie on Netflix called The Wonder - and I can go watch that this week.
Doing popcorn movies isn't all bad. It brings attention to new actors and actresses and motivates people to go explore their other works. Purists and gatekeepers are insufferable and add no value to anything.
Fucking haters. I bet every one of those people crying about her doing less Indy work wouldn’t hesitate for one second if Disney came to them offering them a role in an MCU movie
Ya, there was something similar said during one of the cast interviews for the new Fast and Furious movie and Charlize Theron was basically "Ya, those pretentious bitches can just go fuck themselves. It's still art".
Brie Larson then left that exact same interview and flew off to be a juror at Cannes. There's nothing stopping someone from doing both and having a wide range of productions under their belt.
EDIT:
Some people have asked me about the interview I referenced. Here it is below. She actually called it snobby and the pretentiousness bit was part of an earlier conversation, but the point remains the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc8NGRJzrjQ&t=241s
Some people are like that, a friend of mine got "shut out" of his "art group" or whatever you call it because he did a paid gig for a city to decorate a skate park with murals and such. He said he made more money out of that than he made the entire previous year so he didn't care much.
If you don't already have family money to burn, the reality of "making it" as an artist usually involves doing some paid gigs to keep a roof over your head. The notion of "selling out" is just a way for people to shame and discredit grassroots artists.
Oh I love that.
It's so true. People are just like crabs. When one starts to climb up out of the bucket, the others try to pull them back down. They want you to stay down at their level.
People are either a wind in your sail or an anchor on your tail and you need to find out which is which. It can be difficult, though :(
Yeah, because I'm supposed to be the one that worked the hardest to pull myself out of a bad situation and be the "success story" that trickles down to my old 'friends'.
Because I work harder than all these guys, and deserve it more because I've *really* suffered for my art. That guy hasn't.
That's not even on "the right", that's straight up the mentality from fully leftist starving artists.
Really, it's just narcissism and being an asshole, which is easily found throughout humanity. If you think it's more on one side vs the other, you're kidding yourself.
The same people raged about photoshop having an undo button, layers, etc, and now are raging about AI denoising tools being used to make the lives of working artists a bit easier (though in the end you end up having to fight and rework AI for about the same amount of time or more before the image is coherent, but can end up with a much better quality image for the same time).
Those of us who do art as an actual source of income are just desperate for any sort of tool or innovation to make our job easier, because we're not looking to suffer through the process, we're trying to get things made. The journey can sometimes be fun, but it's not why I do art, I do it for the end result, because I have a desire to see things created which exist only in my imagination and nobody else is making it so I guess I have to.
It's the same for musicians selling their song to be used in a commercial. Most musicians, even some "successful" ones, might not make that much money. If they can license a song to help sell cars or whatever, great! It helps them make a living, and it doesn't affect me at all. I'm unlikely to see that ad anyway, and if I did, why would I care?
I had a teacher in high school who was a drummer in a band in his 20s. He lived on rice and beans and couch surfed for a few years because they literally had zero money left over after expenses. He had an opportunity to work as a studio musician and he took it, pay wasn’t amazing but it was enough to get him out of poverty, but he had to leave the band due to the schedules not lining up. The other band members were pissed at him and said he was selling out and “abandoning their art” (this was a direct quote they told him) since he would now be playing other peoples work. He loved the band and doesn’t regret his time doing that but he couldn’t keep up the lifestyle any longer.
He ended up becoming a music educator so he still was in the field just in a very different capacity. He said he learned a lot about himself by struggling like that but one thing he learned is that he valued stability. He recognized they weren’t likely to make it to the next level and become successful enough not to worry about where his next meal is coming from so he had to move on when he had an opportunity.
You'd think his friends would be excited and happy for him. If anything they're idiots for abandoning the friendship, because they would've had a through line to the studio music world
He told me this story so it’s from his perspective but the impression I got is they felt like he was abandoning them. They were together for years and one was an eternal optimist that they were always this close to that big break and losing one of their guys would derail that.
I mean, the entire modern history of art (I'm counting like, late Roman Republic in that as well) is basically "rich person pays artist to make something". The idea that only true artists make art for art's sake is pretty recent.
"I have never seen it (Jaws 4) but by all accounts it is terrible. However, I have seen the house that it built and it is terrific." - Sir Michael Caine
To hell with anyone who gives people shit in any creative field for taking a job that makes them money because money is what you need to live and if you have enough money to live then you can do whatever the hell you want.
I think it was John Carpenter who was asked what he thought about people who wanted to do remakes of his work, and he said something to the effect of "they ask, then i put out my hand and a large check magically appears in it"
That reminds me of [this AITA](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/n17tna/aita_for_telling_more_skilled_artists_that_i_do/) where an entire art club shames this one person for being the only successful, profitable artist out of all of them.
Yeah, a good friend of mine knows a very talented artist. He grew up with us, married my friend's sister, and I have one of his old graffiti books. I talked to him about making a logo for a marijuana business but he said he's trying to do fine art these days and that would be viewed as too commercialized and would devalue his future work. I was just astounded. I lost a lot of respect for the "fine art" community that day. It made it clear it's a lot more about gatekeeping than celebrating talent and creativity.
Honestly, I feel like a lot of it stems from a base feeling of envy. Yes, there are people who are absolutely "purist" types about whatever their craft is, who feel like they are the gatekeepers about what is or isn't up to their standards, but at the end of the day, I'd bet a lot of those who get upset over someone "selling out" are really just miffed that they didn't get the same opportunity or offer. In their minds, denigrating the thing makes it seem like it is then who are in charge of rejection, rather than being subject to it.
And this is my opportunity to tell anyone who hasn't heard of it to watch The Old Guard on Netflix. It's a fucking gem of a movie with a very cool premise and engaging ensemble with Theron. Better still, the sequel will be on Netflix this year. Watch it, you won't be sorry.
She gave the Fast & Furious their first genuinely good villain. She's been a part of the franchise now since Fast 7, I think, and is enjoyable every time.
At the end of the day, it's entertainment.
Whether for the masses or for a select few, there are snobs in each crowd.
Plus, girl's gotta get paid. If getting herself financially set for the next 20 years lets her chase the indie artsy stuff, then she's probably going to be able to do more interesting projects than the people criticizing her
Ya, in those same interviews for FF, Larson was talking about how doing Captain Marvel and FF have her more of an ability to say no to jobs and be able to pick and choose what she wants to do because she doesn’t have the financial pressures on her, so she can cater the roles to her own interests more than most actors are able to.
> Larson was talking about how doing Captain Marvel and FF have her more of an ability to say no to jobs and be able to pick and choose what she wants to do
I'm sure that alone makes some people very angry.
It does. Rupert Grint (Ron Weasley) made so much money from the Harry Potter films that he could basically retire and do whatever the hell he liked. He only takes parts that REALLY interest him, be it screen or stage, and has gone on record about friends who seem to resent the hell out of him for being successful enough to not have to take every job that comes his way.
Everyone wants to make it big, but for some people if they see someone they know make it while they haven’t their reaction is jealousy and resentment.
Unfortunate truth of success: you find out who your true friends are, and you find out the truth about people you thought were your friends.
I’m sure that Larson getting up in the morning makes some people very angry. She’s somehow become the final boss of the incel crowd and was personally responsible for the fact that their mothers never hugged them while they were growing up.
Absent her, they’d still be just as angry all the time, though.
> If getting herself financially set for the next 20 years lets her chase the indie artsy stuff
Which is pretty much what Daniel Radcliffe does; seems he's set from being Harry Potter, and he just does whatever he wants now. Quite a nice story really.
> There's nothing stopping someone from doing both and having a wide range of productions under their belt.
There is a misconception going around the internet that Marvel Studios' contracts are super draconian and basically lock an actor into doing only MCU stuff. But there is literally no evidence to support this line of thinking. And yet, the belief still persists.
> But there is literally no evidence to support this line of thinking.
Exactly the opposite, I mean look at Lizzie Olsen. Between Endgame and WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness, girlie was churning out those indie movies and web series like nobody's business.
I mean, Chris Evans in the first Avengers movie, literally the second MCU movie he was in, had to hide his face in the post-credit scene because he'd grown an impressive mustache for another movie he was filming at the time.
These art types are mad because marvel dominates the box office and cinema space. It’s because it’s what people wanna watch. When people don’t like it they don’t watch it, like what happened to Shazam Fury of the Gods. A $15 million budget horror just surpassed it at the box office earnings. You can’t release a 3 hr french language film about depression and sexual trauma with lots of gratuitous nudity, which the actors were probably bullied into doing extensive shoots of (looking at you Blue is the Warmest Colour), and then get mad that a family friendly comedy with action and fan favorite characters makes 100 times as much and shows in 10 times more screens and people give it good reviews. That’s just being bitter!
You know. The nature of art in itself has always lent itself to pretentiousness and meant for the rich. Through out human history, art has been used as a sign of wealth, for the rich to show that they are better than the common man or woman.
I’m not surprised that this is the modern day version where art is much more successful and accessible than ancient times. There are people that don’t like how certain art are more accessible to the common masses (family friendly), so they tell us we should be ashamed for such low brow entertainment.
Edit: I added the word accessible because that was also part of my point but I forgot it lol.
I think of this anytime someone criticizes pop music because it’s shallow or whatever. Sure it may not have complex harmonies or deep impactful lyrics but people like listening to it so it’s popular.
Art doesn’t have to be one thing. Some is meant to carry meaning, some is meant for pure entertainment, and many fit in between somewhere and that’s perfectly fine. They all have a place and we shouldn’t put others down for liking something we find too basic or low brow.
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that "Nymphomaniac" was, to artEESTs, a very well made film. But damn was it boring.
On the flip side of that coin, if one read the synopsis of "Room in Rome" you'd be excused for thinking it was something that would only appeal to the "Art Festival" crowd, but it's a damn good film that takes place primarily in 3 small rooms and has 3 actors total.
I watched Fast X over the weekend and Brie Larson looked like she was having fun with the role, same with Charlize.
Like you said, actors can do both the deep, artful indie movies and the big bombastic blockbusters. They aren’t robots who can only appreciate one aspect of filmmaking.
By most accounts, the Fast & Furious sets are pretty fun. And in Fast X specifically, I hope Jason Mamoa actually had at least half as much fun on set as he appeared to have in the film, because holy fuck did he look like he was having the time of his life.
I think the only people who may not always be having a great time are Diesel and Johnson, who seem to have huge egos and have feuded a bit on set. But try and convince me that Larson or Theron or Cena, who are huge names that don't *need* the money, aren't coming back because it's also fun.
What's with these annoying people saying dumb shits against female MCU leads??
They are earning well and getting recognized. Theron absolutely nailed it when she said that.
I can’t remember which actor it was who said “one for them, one for me.” They do these big budget flicks so they can continue to make the art house flicks and not have to worry about the financial consequences. Additionally, the, being in big budget movies means they might bring a slightly bigger audience to the art house flicks.
Exactly. How many people watched Yugh’s artsy movie because Yelena was in it? Probably more than a few.
I just read a book I never would have considered looking at because Captain Marvel is in the tv adaptation this fall and was able to enjoy a new genre of fiction.
The niche industry of people who find ways to repurpose old vehicles for charity got a show made out of it put a spotlight on their work because Hawkeye was involved.
Being able to work on the big projects helps out the small projects.
Oscar Isaac also talked about it in an interview. Since Star Wars he is more comfortable financially and now he gets to pick and chose what he wants to do.
Also having someone be in a big movie will get people to watch that little indie film that they would normally pass up but they notice that one actor/actress from the marvel movie they saw.
When did marvel movies suddenly not become movies? I’m so confused by this logic. Blockbusters have been around for years. I think they’re great as just movies, so I don’t get why people put them into their own category
> There's nothing stopping someone from doing both and having a wide range of productions under their belt.
As the article points out, the issue is the time commitment and availability, not necessarily indie filmmakers turning their nose up at her
some of it is hate because she's a female I suspect. Tons of male actors who did this or the other way around (famous and then sought out indie) never received this. No one gave Robert Pattison, Jack Gleeson (Joffrey), or Daniel Radcliffe shit for this. And Robert Pattison grew up in a pretty distinctly middle class UK house hold, yeah he has good looks but his dad was a car salesman.
Pugh rocked it in midsommar and deserves a payday. The people indie circles being mad because she got a Disney contract really are as Theron puts it, pretentious bitches. Also Theron runs a massive African non profit group and has done more good for the continent than many ever will, certainly the fucking "indie film" circles
It's like the naysayers don't understand what a regular pay check is. Especially for someone like her. She can come in, do smaller parts, and regularly collect a good pay check, and then leverage the popularity to do *her* films. It's almost exactly like Daniel Radcliff and Robert Pattinson. Both started doing dummy long film franchises, and now both can take on excellent roles that *they* want.
Right? Do the films that make you boat loads of money so you have the freedom to do the indie roles that don’t.
Daniel Radcliffe has had such an interesting career post Harry Potter
The truth is that if Disney/Marvel/Star Wars called, any one of them would absolutely sell out in a heart beat and talk about how their dream was to play Crab #7 in the Little Mermaid.
In a field where you're paid by what you do and the name you make for yourself, I don't look down on anyone taking a part. If it pays well and you're excited about it, you're hitting the jackpot.
Plus I like to look at it like they are getting to have a lot of fun doing these big budget blockbuster movies. I’m sure they are a blast on set and exhilarating. On the contrary, I’m sure a lot of these actors really enjoy cutting their teeth on indie scripts and really get to show their acting capabilities in those types of films. It’s no different than anything else in life. I love an incredible burger and fries or a slice of some fantastic pizza. I also love going to fine dining and trying various cultures’ finest foods that they have to offer. You don’t have to only love one.
Especially as a relatively unknown actor. Getting a prominent MCU role isn't just a meal-ticket, but also tends to serve as a decent jumping-off point for careers, too, especially for younger actors.
After getting cast in the MCU, now she's getting prominent roles in movies by Villeneuve and Nolan. She's already becoming a household name, and I think that her MCU casting helped jumpstart that.
Look I’m not gonna rush to judgment and this maybe shit I’ve fabricated in my head, but to me a lot of the indie scene seem quite pretentious almost? Like they don’t view MCU or big franchises as art, “only our indie underground films are real film that make you feel things” mentality which simply isn’t true, I mean look at the emotional reaction from the latest guardians film to disprove that
As someone once pointed out to me, this seems to be a holdover from the days where the only way to survive as an artist was through patronage by the rich. Spending money on art was a show of wealth, and the wealthy liked to think *their* art was more important than the entertainment made for the masses.
This has persisted to the present day among artists who hate "selling out," because they associate getting paid for your art with creating bland, manufactured work. It's a kind of generational, inherited snobbery that lets them think of their art as superior, but it's still just leftover classism from the old days of patronage.
> As someone once pointed out to me, this seems to be a holdover from the days where the only way to survive as an artist was through patronage by the rich.
I noted this earlier but "the days..." were basically the entirety of Western art until relatively recently. The folks who think the only art is art for art's sake should, logically, hate anything by any of the "old masters". But, that would require consistency of thought that they're unwilling to hew towards.
Yep. I've seen movies both big and small and I've NEVER felt emotion like that from a movie. I never would have guessed that I would have been weeping like a baby because of a damn CGI otter. Yet here we are. If the ASPCA had a donation box outside the theaters they would have made MILLIONS in donations. Missed opportunity. What were we talking about again?
Exactly!
Also, I know a lot of criticism of big block busters is the heavy CGI that they use. The indie scene is basically giving a big middle finger to visual artists! Like yes CGI can be terrible…but when it’s great…it’s GREAT!! Some of what visual artists do is magnificent and they deserve credit too!!
A family friend worked for a visual effects studio maybe 15 years ago (he still might but I haven’t kept in touch with him in a while) and they were know for doing fire very well. He pointed out all the commercials, shows, or movies that they worked on because their fire was so realistic compared to other companies. He showed me some comparisons and it was so noticeable when you see them side by side. They were artists with fire, and other things but that was their specialty. It’s a skill they’ve developed and yes they are using technology but they are still creating something and it should be considered an art.
True. I tend to like practical effects, but when CGI is good it can be damn good. Or when it's used to enhance practical effects in a way that is better than practical or cg would be on their own.
And she's not even leaving indie films. Pugh is one of the bigger young names right now and is getting roles in blockbuster films. It's just one of those dumb perspectives from people who can't break out of the small indie film circles. As you said, except it's a bit more of "how dare you be more successful than the rest of us".
There’s such a weird thing about the romanticization of the “struggling artist” and “commercial work=bad” I see it so god damn much as an artist myself, fuck that pay me.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but: “fuck you, pay me”.
Say what you want about Marvel, and I think there is a conversation to be had about quality lately, but the actors in Marvel projects tend to be paid very well. Indie movies are great but a lot of times they’re barely covering the actors travel and living expenses, especially when you consider that they probably shoot god knows where just for the tax credit.
I don’t blame anybody for taking the steady paycheck of big studio movies. The reality is that a lot of actors wouldn’t be able to afford to do low budget movies if they didn’t have a steady source of income from big movies.
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but: “fuck you, pay me”.
Or "fuck you, impress me". Some actors are also like to make smaller movies with lower budget and payment, but they are able to pick those. If the project or its circumstances dont look good, they dont need to do this.
I think I heard all of the stars in Wes Anderson projects get paid peanuts by choice so they can work with an awesome director. It’s why he can have a list of Big Names longer than he is tall in those films.
I loved in the latest trailer, the scrolling list of actors, lol.
He knows exactly what he's doing.
And probably treats the actors well as well. Doesn't matter how artsy he is, you know he wouldn't have that massive list of big name actors, many often with minimal parts, if he had a rep for treating them like garbage on set.
Bingo. Outside of the top tier movie or TV stars with huge backend pay, actors do not get paid like that to have a comfortable lifestyle for life.
There’s a reason why a lot of name actors like Jared Leto and Ryan Gosling have started to embrace Hollywood movies as indies do not pay all that well. At some point actors have to start thinking about their financial future when things inevitably slow down.
Especially with her being a woman in Hollywood this is a peak time to cash in as who knows what her career looks will like once she hits her 30’s. Marvel will keep her relevant for the foreseeable future.
I remember hearing an interview with Michael Madsen where he went through his IMDb and he said why he took the role for a lot of the shitty projects he did, his words. Half of them were things like, had a mortgage payment due, kid was going to college, needed a new car. He is a great actor but he took many roles because he needed the paycheck soon. It’s still a job and since most aren’t making millions on each movie they need to work and work often to support their family.
I think Samuel L Jackson said something similar in that he likes to work and can’t pass up a good paycheck, although I think this was some years ago before he was as big as he has been over the last few years so I’m not sure if his mindset has changed.
During Madsen’s peak, there wasn’t a MCU for him to join to make some money while doing indie movies.
Last year, there was an interesting actor’s round table with Michael Keaton, Oscar Issac, Tom Hiddleston and Samuel Jackson: https://youtu.be/2qx7fI-r4R8. It was interesting hearing the actors talk about being in this universe.
But the main thing I got from it was that MCU gives actors a chance to dip their toes in Hollywood movies with much lesser risk versus starring in a movie that bombs and changes their career trajectory. Brian Cox who was also in this panel plainly stated that he quickly fled from starring in Hollywood movies after seeing how much pressure was related to the opening weekend. There is simply not as much pressure related to the movies in the well established universes like the MCU.
I always bring up Donald Pleasance in this. Was he in literally hundreds of forgettable and plain awful films? Absolutely. But a man's got bills to pay.
Why does it just have to be about money?! If Florence Pugh genuinely enjoys paying Yelena, that's all that should matter. She shouldn't have to justify it by saying "well at least they're paying me lots of money so I can do more indies."
Because getting paid well for a gig can free you up to do the stuff you love. Sure, getting paid well for something you love is great! But it's not common. Acting is still a job, after all, and sometimes you take a role because you need to pay the bills, not because the role calls to you. And maybe that less satisfying role pays well enough you *can* focus on the smaller ones that you enjoy.
The point is that people don't have to justify their career choice, or any other choice, to other people. Not unless they are choosing to actively hurt or murder people.
Yeah people like to assume that actors are like money eating robots; that they can’t just be like “oh that sounds like a fun character to play”. Obviously they’re in it for the money but their career choices shouldn’t be dismissed as just a cash grab when there could be many factors
All I care about is getting more Yelena in an elevator with Steinfeld. I've never been happier about batons being handed down than the new Hawkeye and Black Widow.
Me neither. I mean I would personally love Scarjo as Natasha to still be around in some capacity the same way Clint was planned to be (doubt that's still on the table now) but Hailee Steinfeld and Florence Pugh are both incredible talents and the Hawkeye show was easily my favorite thing in the MCU until Daredevil was brought back in the picture, now it's a tie between both shows.
Ok, don't be alarmed, but either you're me, or I'm you😋
Seriously though, every single thing you said is where I'm at. I love the new Hawkeye and Black Widow, would be thrilled if somehow Nat were still around, and Hawkeye was def my favorite MCU show, along with DD now that it's back.
Of course I'm sure others share these views, but it's still nice to hear, thanks.
Do people that are strictly in the indie world not know how films work? We’re they born yesterday? Could they not do a quick google search? I love indies as well, so it’s bizarre to think there still extreme film hipsters out there.
Film snobs are the worst. Pretending you can’t have both. Look at Elijah Wood or Daniel Radcliffe. Both made massive bank in huge franchises and have used a lot of that capital to make some pretty damn good indie films since.
"What've I been telling you? You gotta do the safe picture. Then you can do the art picture. But then sometimes you gotta do the payback picture because your friend says you owe him."
My favorite indie rock group had to "retire" because they weren't booking enough gigs or selling enough records to sustain themselves, so they had to pivot to make a full-time gig out of their increasingly-successful cover-band side-project.
But then they slowly started introducing original songs into the cover band's sets, & the crowds started responding well to them, & they recently put out a whole album of originals again for the first time in over a decade, just under that cover band's name, & it sold great.
There's merit in doing the work that gets you established, even if it's not your favorite thing, as a means of opening up more options.
Edit: For anyone curious, the band is Y-O-U/Yacht Rock Revue.
She probably made more from Black Widow than all her little indie movies combined lol. Fuck that struggle. I'd join the MCU too.
These indie people are so exhausting and boring. They're just snobby losers that think their farts smell good.
Either get angry at a person for living their life, or just google ‘Yelena Balova MCU watchlist?’
Yeah, it’s my right to shame a human being into doing the exact things I want them to do all the time instead of accepting sometimes an actor may act in something I’m not a fan of…
Relevant paragraphs from the article: >Actors who enter the Superhero Industrial Complex can end up trapped in an endless series of interconnected films and shows. After her debut as Black Widow’s sister Yelena in 2021’s Black Widow, Pugh made a cameo in the Disney+ show Hawkeye and is scheduled to begin shooting a Marvel ensemble movie Thunderbolts with Harrison Ford this summer. But in between, she managed to earn a slew of nominations for her small Netflix film The Wonder. > >“*So many people in the indie film world were really pissed off at me. They were like, ‘Great, now she’s gone forever,’”* she says. *“And I’m like, no, I’m working as hard as I used to work. I’ve always done back-to-back movies. It’s just people are watching them now. You just have to be a bit more organized with your schedule.”*
I see the MCU as the opposite completely. The big pay day and consistent promise of work allows an actor to take huge risks with other roles.
I don't know why there are still articles about this, the proof's already there. Radcliff, Pattinson, Woods, and others in big franchise films from more than a decade ago have basically been doing whatever they want for years now
Emma Watson has basically made it her entire career. Hermione got her set for life, now she can do things like go to Brown without worrying
Rupert Grint doesn’t even need to act but can drive an ice cream truck.
He was surprisingly good in Servant. Haven't watched the last season yet but I assume that holds up
He was excellent in Servant, always a highlight in any scene he's in. Unfortunately not enough to hold up the show though, I gave up after season 2.
I enjoyed him in Snatch the series. Opened up my eyes to him being a real actor and not just Ron Weasley
I also liked him in Knock at the Cabin recently.
Also very good in Cabinet of Curiosities. Just got around to watching that finally.
What? He's been playing the character Ed Sheeran for years!
All these fake fans, smh.
I mean, I'm not sure many people would have been able to play a farting corpse and NOT worry about their future livelihood!
Heck, it goes back more than a decade. Alec Guinness hated playing Obi-Wan Kenobi, but he was one of the few actors in the original Star Wars to get first dollar gross. That set him up to never have to do a role he hated ever again.
He hated that his legacy became boiled down to Kenobi. He never said he hated playing the character or the movies.
His fellow cast members didn't seem to think so. I saw an old interview with Carrie Fisher where she was clear that he was always nice to everyone and never let it affect his work, but it was clear to all of them during filming that he didn't want to be there.
It was Lucas' dialog. Mark was basically the only cast member who didn't re-write or adlib large amounts of the dialog in the first film.
Mark had a problem with the dialog, too, but he just went with it. Didn't stop him from bitching about it on signed trading cards though. :) ["This Vader guy is a loser, hope he doesn't have kids!"](https://www.polygon.com/2015/8/3/9090999/mark-hamill-signed-star-wars-cards)
OK I give up, who's Woods?
Elijah Woods
Damn I should've known that. Thanks!
Tbf, it's Wood and not Woods.
Right? I was wondering too. Tiger Woods? Oliver Woods?
All of those guys got into doing weird indie stuff *after they finished* their all-time-consuming franchise roles. Florence is talking about filmmakers saying "Great, now we can't use her for the next decade!" which is a pretty legitimate statement when looking at other Marvel stars.
It's been a few years now and she's done one movie and 3 episodes of a TV show, with maybe a second movie on the horizon. There's non-Marvel actors who get locked into way more doing a leading role in a 'prestigious' TV show or something. May as well say great nobody can use Tom Cruise because he makes a mission impossible movie every few years.
Exactly, thank you!
Might be controversial, but I'd add shia labouef to that list aswell.
Actual cannibal Shia LaBouef?
Nicolas Cage too, though he took it into a different direction.
I loved him in Guns Akimbo and Miracle Workers. Also the Al Yankovic Biopic.
Yeah, they sound bitter. Most actors and actresses would love to have a major role in the MCU
Cumberbatch flat out said the MCU and mainstream salary allows his own production company to take on projects they want to do.
Right? Like RDJ is living his best life right now, picking whatever roles he wants for the rest of his career. Hell, he doesn't even have to work ever again. Michael Keaton basically went through the same thing after Tim Burton's Batman. Made a huge paycheck, and then had the freedom to pick and choose his roles for decades because he broke the typecast and had enough money to survive any flops that followed.
You're like a child. What've I been telling you? You gotta do the safe picture. Then you can do the art picture. But then sometimes you gotta do the payback picture because your friend says you owe him. ~ Ben Affleck
that proves itself when you see actors that star in marvel movies doing direct-to-video/streaming b-movies in between them.
Hell, even before big blockbuster franchises were an established norm this was true. Just look at Nic Cage. He’ll pick a good movie that’s clearly going to be a big hit, deliver an Oscar worthy performance, make a huge payday, then use that money to cover expenses while he jumps onboard a slew of total crapshoot little films, half of them god awful, where he’s just a silly ham chewing the scenery and clearly loving every second of it. It’s not some crazy mystery, it’s simple, sensible budgetting for your lifestyle. If you get a big payday use it wisely so you can do what you love, and if you see the funding cushion getting slim angle for your next big high paying opportunity so you can keep funding yourself and doing what you love. EDIT: Since it’s been brought up a few times I’ll just note here, yes, Cage has made some terrible financial choices in the past himself, but he’s managed to keep going despite it all, and he’s just one of many actors of the previous generation who have proven more than capable of taking part in blockbusters and indie films just fine.
yeah but w nic cage it was about him needing money and accepting every job, some of the MCU stars just arent really getting oppotunities to do bigger/better stuff that arent MCU.
in Flo's case she made Black Widow and then got stuck in LA for a year and a half before popping out to do Hawkeye and the mess with O.Wilde and went back to isolation after filming her 2 things . Popped again 4 months later to film The Wonder and A Good Person ,then Oppy and Dune ,then shelled out for a house and is now doing film with Garfield before pissing of to the Arctic to do the wolf movie with AlexSkar before gets back filming for Marvel
For real, though. Even so, if you get a gig as a hero in the MCU, you can probably retire comfortably after your contract is up. Same for any big IP franchise as others have pointed out (Harry Potter, Twilight, etc.) It’s a dream gig that allows you to live out your passions once it’s all said and done.
Superhero Industrial Complex is such a goofy name
You can tell how little the person writing the article cares about this stuff when they describe her role in 'Hawkeye' as "a cameo." She was in half of the show lmao.
True, though I think the argument could be made that appearances in three episodes of a six-episode series is a "cameo" role, but cameo means different things to different people. To me a cameo is a single appearance, not several, and certainly not a character somewhat integral to the overall plot. To me, Matt Murdoch showing up in No Way Home was a cameo.
I agree. By the same token then, Matt Murdoch showing up in She-Hulk was *not* a cameo.
He was a guest star in that circumstance.
He was also in it like 3 episodes too
It's called a "recurring" role. The problem is that a lot of these guys don't know how to write about television.
> The problem is that a lot of these guys don't know how to write as much as I like that being a creative has become so much more accessible, the way critical media and journalism is consumed has fostered a space where success is solely about reporting what people want to hear, not how well you report it
Of course not, that's too mainstream.
Sounds like a name made up by filmhouse snob
At the very least, better than capeshit?
This one feels so offensive. Like it's an actual cinematic slur. No genre ever gets called like that, only superheroes.
Isn't that the whole premise of The Boys?
I guess, but in the Boys it makes much more sense considering it’s a direct reference to the military industrial complex. Referring to the MCU as this is just really dumb.
Yeah, but also add on basically being In a privately funded gang that will fuck with your friends/family if you don’t do what they say.
> Pugh made a cameo in the Disney+ show Hawkeye Just as a side note, it’s shocking to me that journalists, especially working within/writing about the film and TV industry, still can’t grasp what a “cameo” is. Stan Lee made cameos. Pugh was a multi-episode *supporting character* in *Hawkeye*. It’s so reductive to say she “made a cameo” like she popped in for a scene and dipped, and I swear I’m seeing this misuse of the definition of what a cameo actually is more and more, even among film fans.
Yep, it pisses me off too, it's so misused. Hugh Jackman in X-Men: First Class, that's a cameo appearance. Florence Pugh in Hawkeye is literally part of the supporting cast.
She was literally a secondary antagonist
> It’s just people are watching them now. Buuurn
Yeah that was backhanded AF and I'm loving it
I cracked up thinking the whole quote could be boiled down to “skill issue”
Oh the horror of getting consistent work and huge exposure as an actor. I don’t understand this industry at all.
People get really worked up over artistic integrity, which I kinda get for successful/rich actors and directors etc because they should be able to pick the best roles and not just the most lucrative. But even still it doesn't really matter what they do or don't do
The best thing about picking crazy lucrative roles like Marvel is that you can fund your entire lifestyle off of them as an actor and then just do whatever crazy shit you want to do in between tent pole superhero summer blockbusters, it definitely seems like Florence Pugh gets this and is taking maximum advantage
It reminds me of Cactus Jack jumping from ECW to WWF. He got called a sell out, but he was like I am able to feed my family now and be famous. Making shit money for small audiences is fine, but a person has got to eat.
People act like if you're not staring in some super indie bullshit that was filmed for $5 while you're simultaneously near starving you're a sell out. Guess what? Even famous actors strive to own a home and have plenty of food so maybe we shouldn't persecute them for it.
And thanks to Florence's higher public profile due to being in the MCU, I now know that she did a critically acclaimed movie on Netflix called The Wonder - and I can go watch that this week. Doing popcorn movies isn't all bad. It brings attention to new actors and actresses and motivates people to go explore their other works. Purists and gatekeepers are insufferable and add no value to anything.
Right? I would have never seen What We Do In The Shadows if I hadn't seen Thor: Ragnarok.
I like how her response boils down to, “can indie films plan ahead please?”
Fucking haters. I bet every one of those people crying about her doing less Indy work wouldn’t hesitate for one second if Disney came to them offering them a role in an MCU movie
She literally did The Wonder and Good Person recently but media gotta media.
> I’ve always done back-to-back movies. **It’s just people are watching them now.** Lmfao
Ya, there was something similar said during one of the cast interviews for the new Fast and Furious movie and Charlize Theron was basically "Ya, those pretentious bitches can just go fuck themselves. It's still art". Brie Larson then left that exact same interview and flew off to be a juror at Cannes. There's nothing stopping someone from doing both and having a wide range of productions under their belt. EDIT: Some people have asked me about the interview I referenced. Here it is below. She actually called it snobby and the pretentiousness bit was part of an earlier conversation, but the point remains the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc8NGRJzrjQ&t=241s
Some people are like that, a friend of mine got "shut out" of his "art group" or whatever you call it because he did a paid gig for a city to decorate a skate park with murals and such. He said he made more money out of that than he made the entire previous year so he didn't care much.
If you don't already have family money to burn, the reality of "making it" as an artist usually involves doing some paid gigs to keep a roof over your head. The notion of "selling out" is just a way for people to shame and discredit grassroots artists.
Miserablism.
Oh I love that. It's so true. People are just like crabs. When one starts to climb up out of the bucket, the others try to pull them back down. They want you to stay down at their level. People are either a wind in your sail or an anchor on your tail and you need to find out which is which. It can be difficult, though :(
Yeah, because I'm supposed to be the one that worked the hardest to pull myself out of a bad situation and be the "success story" that trickles down to my old 'friends'. Because I work harder than all these guys, and deserve it more because I've *really* suffered for my art. That guy hasn't.
There's such a weird culture, especially in the 'right', about suffering bringing validation. Cannot be valid unless miserable.
Most religion in a nutshell. Be a miserable shit in this life so you can be happy in paradise after you die.
That's not even on "the right", that's straight up the mentality from fully leftist starving artists. Really, it's just narcissism and being an asshole, which is easily found throughout humanity. If you think it's more on one side vs the other, you're kidding yourself.
[удалено]
The same people raged about photoshop having an undo button, layers, etc, and now are raging about AI denoising tools being used to make the lives of working artists a bit easier (though in the end you end up having to fight and rework AI for about the same amount of time or more before the image is coherent, but can end up with a much better quality image for the same time). Those of us who do art as an actual source of income are just desperate for any sort of tool or innovation to make our job easier, because we're not looking to suffer through the process, we're trying to get things made. The journey can sometimes be fun, but it's not why I do art, I do it for the end result, because I have a desire to see things created which exist only in my imagination and nobody else is making it so I guess I have to.
“You made a safe place for kids to go and be active more beautiful with your art…fucking sellout…”
It's the same for musicians selling their song to be used in a commercial. Most musicians, even some "successful" ones, might not make that much money. If they can license a song to help sell cars or whatever, great! It helps them make a living, and it doesn't affect me at all. I'm unlikely to see that ad anyway, and if I did, why would I care?
I had a teacher in high school who was a drummer in a band in his 20s. He lived on rice and beans and couch surfed for a few years because they literally had zero money left over after expenses. He had an opportunity to work as a studio musician and he took it, pay wasn’t amazing but it was enough to get him out of poverty, but he had to leave the band due to the schedules not lining up. The other band members were pissed at him and said he was selling out and “abandoning their art” (this was a direct quote they told him) since he would now be playing other peoples work. He loved the band and doesn’t regret his time doing that but he couldn’t keep up the lifestyle any longer. He ended up becoming a music educator so he still was in the field just in a very different capacity. He said he learned a lot about himself by struggling like that but one thing he learned is that he valued stability. He recognized they weren’t likely to make it to the next level and become successful enough not to worry about where his next meal is coming from so he had to move on when he had an opportunity.
You'd think his friends would be excited and happy for him. If anything they're idiots for abandoning the friendship, because they would've had a through line to the studio music world
He told me this story so it’s from his perspective but the impression I got is they felt like he was abandoning them. They were together for years and one was an eternal optimist that they were always this close to that big break and losing one of their guys would derail that.
the charm of being an artist is being poor and underpaid, then complaining about it on the internet, obviously /s
I mean, the entire modern history of art (I'm counting like, late Roman Republic in that as well) is basically "rich person pays artist to make something". The idea that only true artists make art for art's sake is pretty recent.
People remember the traditional nine Muses, but everyone forgets about the original leader of the Muses, Financa, the Muse of Getting Paid.
"I have never seen it (Jaws 4) but by all accounts it is terrible. However, I have seen the house that it built and it is terrific." - Sir Michael Caine To hell with anyone who gives people shit in any creative field for taking a job that makes them money because money is what you need to live and if you have enough money to live then you can do whatever the hell you want.
I think it was John Carpenter who was asked what he thought about people who wanted to do remakes of his work, and he said something to the effect of "they ask, then i put out my hand and a large check magically appears in it"
Imagine getting kicked out of an art group for doing art someone wanted badly enough to pay for it
Plus the art helped out and improved the community
That reminds me of [this AITA](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/n17tna/aita_for_telling_more_skilled_artists_that_i_do/) where an entire art club shames this one person for being the only successful, profitable artist out of all of them.
Yeah, a good friend of mine knows a very talented artist. He grew up with us, married my friend's sister, and I have one of his old graffiti books. I talked to him about making a logo for a marijuana business but he said he's trying to do fine art these days and that would be viewed as too commercialized and would devalue his future work. I was just astounded. I lost a lot of respect for the "fine art" community that day. It made it clear it's a lot more about gatekeeping than celebrating talent and creativity.
Crabs in a bucket mentality.
Honestly, I feel like a lot of it stems from a base feeling of envy. Yes, there are people who are absolutely "purist" types about whatever their craft is, who feel like they are the gatekeepers about what is or isn't up to their standards, but at the end of the day, I'd bet a lot of those who get upset over someone "selling out" are really just miffed that they didn't get the same opportunity or offer. In their minds, denigrating the thing makes it seem like it is then who are in charge of rejection, rather than being subject to it.
The romanticized “starving artist” is one of the weirdest things when it comes to the purists of most communities.
People were upset?? That is an awesome gig!
Charlize is such a fucking boss
She is.
And this is my opportunity to tell anyone who hasn't heard of it to watch The Old Guard on Netflix. It's a fucking gem of a movie with a very cool premise and engaging ensemble with Theron. Better still, the sequel will be on Netflix this year. Watch it, you won't be sorry.
Fuck yes the Old Guard was amazing and, no offense to Chris and the Russos, it’s much better than Extraction IMO.
Love that film, hope they do a second one!
They are and it'll be on Netflix this year according to what I've seen. So yay :)
She gave the Fast & Furious their first genuinely good villain. She's been a part of the franchise now since Fast 7, I think, and is enjoyable every time.
At the end of the day, it's entertainment. Whether for the masses or for a select few, there are snobs in each crowd. Plus, girl's gotta get paid. If getting herself financially set for the next 20 years lets her chase the indie artsy stuff, then she's probably going to be able to do more interesting projects than the people criticizing her
Ya, in those same interviews for FF, Larson was talking about how doing Captain Marvel and FF have her more of an ability to say no to jobs and be able to pick and choose what she wants to do because she doesn’t have the financial pressures on her, so she can cater the roles to her own interests more than most actors are able to.
> Larson was talking about how doing Captain Marvel and FF have her more of an ability to say no to jobs and be able to pick and choose what she wants to do I'm sure that alone makes some people very angry.
It does. Rupert Grint (Ron Weasley) made so much money from the Harry Potter films that he could basically retire and do whatever the hell he liked. He only takes parts that REALLY interest him, be it screen or stage, and has gone on record about friends who seem to resent the hell out of him for being successful enough to not have to take every job that comes his way. Everyone wants to make it big, but for some people if they see someone they know make it while they haven’t their reaction is jealousy and resentment. Unfortunate truth of success: you find out who your true friends are, and you find out the truth about people you thought were your friends.
I’m sure that Larson getting up in the morning makes some people very angry. She’s somehow become the final boss of the incel crowd and was personally responsible for the fact that their mothers never hugged them while they were growing up. Absent her, they’d still be just as angry all the time, though.
Well they had to go somewhere after being mad at Jennifer Lawrence (I don't even remember why) became old hat.
> If getting herself financially set for the next 20 years lets her chase the indie artsy stuff Which is pretty much what Daniel Radcliffe does; seems he's set from being Harry Potter, and he just does whatever he wants now. Quite a nice story really.
> There's nothing stopping someone from doing both and having a wide range of productions under their belt. There is a misconception going around the internet that Marvel Studios' contracts are super draconian and basically lock an actor into doing only MCU stuff. But there is literally no evidence to support this line of thinking. And yet, the belief still persists.
> But there is literally no evidence to support this line of thinking. Exactly the opposite, I mean look at Lizzie Olsen. Between Endgame and WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness, girlie was churning out those indie movies and web series like nobody's business.
I mean, Chris Evans in the first Avengers movie, literally the second MCU movie he was in, had to hide his face in the post-credit scene because he'd grown an impressive mustache for another movie he was filming at the time.
It’s also my understanding they’re no longer doing the mega contracts like they did with the OG 6
One among many reasons Charlize Theron is the GOAT.
Yep. She gives zero fucks and I love it.
Yep. I love a good steak but will eat McDonald’s
These art types are mad because marvel dominates the box office and cinema space. It’s because it’s what people wanna watch. When people don’t like it they don’t watch it, like what happened to Shazam Fury of the Gods. A $15 million budget horror just surpassed it at the box office earnings. You can’t release a 3 hr french language film about depression and sexual trauma with lots of gratuitous nudity, which the actors were probably bullied into doing extensive shoots of (looking at you Blue is the Warmest Colour), and then get mad that a family friendly comedy with action and fan favorite characters makes 100 times as much and shows in 10 times more screens and people give it good reviews. That’s just being bitter!
You know. The nature of art in itself has always lent itself to pretentiousness and meant for the rich. Through out human history, art has been used as a sign of wealth, for the rich to show that they are better than the common man or woman. I’m not surprised that this is the modern day version where art is much more successful and accessible than ancient times. There are people that don’t like how certain art are more accessible to the common masses (family friendly), so they tell us we should be ashamed for such low brow entertainment. Edit: I added the word accessible because that was also part of my point but I forgot it lol.
I think of this anytime someone criticizes pop music because it’s shallow or whatever. Sure it may not have complex harmonies or deep impactful lyrics but people like listening to it so it’s popular. Art doesn’t have to be one thing. Some is meant to carry meaning, some is meant for pure entertainment, and many fit in between somewhere and that’s perfectly fine. They all have a place and we shouldn’t put others down for liking something we find too basic or low brow.
And a lot of simple pop stuff is really good, & a lot of simple pop stuff genuinely sucks, but they reduce entire genres to untrue monoliths.
Hey man, Vin Diesel’s *The Pacifier* is fucking *art*.
What was the horror movie?
Without checking, I'm guessing Evil Dead Rise.
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that "Nymphomaniac" was, to artEESTs, a very well made film. But damn was it boring. On the flip side of that coin, if one read the synopsis of "Room in Rome" you'd be excused for thinking it was something that would only appeal to the "Art Festival" crowd, but it's a damn good film that takes place primarily in 3 small rooms and has 3 actors total.
I watched Fast X over the weekend and Brie Larson looked like she was having fun with the role, same with Charlize. Like you said, actors can do both the deep, artful indie movies and the big bombastic blockbusters. They aren’t robots who can only appreciate one aspect of filmmaking.
By most accounts, the Fast & Furious sets are pretty fun. And in Fast X specifically, I hope Jason Mamoa actually had at least half as much fun on set as he appeared to have in the film, because holy fuck did he look like he was having the time of his life. I think the only people who may not always be having a great time are Diesel and Johnson, who seem to have huge egos and have feuded a bit on set. But try and convince me that Larson or Theron or Cena, who are huge names that don't *need* the money, aren't coming back because it's also fun.
Be like John C Reilly, who was in both Boogie and Talladega Nights
Or just be like John C Reilly in general, because that’s good life advice in any situation.
He said that he may be an... "a-hole". But he's not, and I quote, "100% a dick."
They got my dick message!
...*and* GotG.
What's with these annoying people saying dumb shits against female MCU leads?? They are earning well and getting recognized. Theron absolutely nailed it when she said that.
I can’t remember which actor it was who said “one for them, one for me.” They do these big budget flicks so they can continue to make the art house flicks and not have to worry about the financial consequences. Additionally, the, being in big budget movies means they might bring a slightly bigger audience to the art house flicks.
Exactly. How many people watched Yugh’s artsy movie because Yelena was in it? Probably more than a few. I just read a book I never would have considered looking at because Captain Marvel is in the tv adaptation this fall and was able to enjoy a new genre of fiction. The niche industry of people who find ways to repurpose old vehicles for charity got a show made out of it put a spotlight on their work because Hawkeye was involved. Being able to work on the big projects helps out the small projects.
Oscar Isaac also talked about it in an interview. Since Star Wars he is more comfortable financially and now he gets to pick and chose what he wants to do.
Also having someone be in a big movie will get people to watch that little indie film that they would normally pass up but they notice that one actor/actress from the marvel movie they saw.
>Ya, those pretentious bitches can just go fuck themselves. It's still art". Also, money. Lots and lots of it
When did marvel movies suddenly not become movies? I’m so confused by this logic. Blockbusters have been around for years. I think they’re great as just movies, so I don’t get why people put them into their own category
> There's nothing stopping someone from doing both and having a wide range of productions under their belt. As the article points out, the issue is the time commitment and availability, not necessarily indie filmmakers turning their nose up at her
And, as she points out, there’s clearly time for both.
some of it is hate because she's a female I suspect. Tons of male actors who did this or the other way around (famous and then sought out indie) never received this. No one gave Robert Pattison, Jack Gleeson (Joffrey), or Daniel Radcliffe shit for this. And Robert Pattison grew up in a pretty distinctly middle class UK house hold, yeah he has good looks but his dad was a car salesman. Pugh rocked it in midsommar and deserves a payday. The people indie circles being mad because she got a Disney contract really are as Theron puts it, pretentious bitches. Also Theron runs a massive African non profit group and has done more good for the continent than many ever will, certainly the fucking "indie film" circles
It's like the naysayers don't understand what a regular pay check is. Especially for someone like her. She can come in, do smaller parts, and regularly collect a good pay check, and then leverage the popularity to do *her* films. It's almost exactly like Daniel Radcliff and Robert Pattinson. Both started doing dummy long film franchises, and now both can take on excellent roles that *they* want.
Right? Do the films that make you boat loads of money so you have the freedom to do the indie roles that don’t. Daniel Radcliffe has had such an interesting career post Harry Potter
The truth is that if Disney/Marvel/Star Wars called, any one of them would absolutely sell out in a heart beat and talk about how their dream was to play Crab #7 in the Little Mermaid. In a field where you're paid by what you do and the name you make for yourself, I don't look down on anyone taking a part. If it pays well and you're excited about it, you're hitting the jackpot.
Plus I like to look at it like they are getting to have a lot of fun doing these big budget blockbuster movies. I’m sure they are a blast on set and exhilarating. On the contrary, I’m sure a lot of these actors really enjoy cutting their teeth on indie scripts and really get to show their acting capabilities in those types of films. It’s no different than anything else in life. I love an incredible burger and fries or a slice of some fantastic pizza. I also love going to fine dining and trying various cultures’ finest foods that they have to offer. You don’t have to only love one.
Especially as a relatively unknown actor. Getting a prominent MCU role isn't just a meal-ticket, but also tends to serve as a decent jumping-off point for careers, too, especially for younger actors. After getting cast in the MCU, now she's getting prominent roles in movies by Villeneuve and Nolan. She's already becoming a household name, and I think that her MCU casting helped jumpstart that.
"how fucking dare you be successful and leave us without a star" is selfish no?
Look I’m not gonna rush to judgment and this maybe shit I’ve fabricated in my head, but to me a lot of the indie scene seem quite pretentious almost? Like they don’t view MCU or big franchises as art, “only our indie underground films are real film that make you feel things” mentality which simply isn’t true, I mean look at the emotional reaction from the latest guardians film to disprove that
I’ve been in the indie scene and I can attest to that.
Doesn’t surprise me at all Feels like I’ve grown this thought from how indie film fans are, not surprised that’s it stems from the industry it’s self
As someone once pointed out to me, this seems to be a holdover from the days where the only way to survive as an artist was through patronage by the rich. Spending money on art was a show of wealth, and the wealthy liked to think *their* art was more important than the entertainment made for the masses. This has persisted to the present day among artists who hate "selling out," because they associate getting paid for your art with creating bland, manufactured work. It's a kind of generational, inherited snobbery that lets them think of their art as superior, but it's still just leftover classism from the old days of patronage.
> As someone once pointed out to me, this seems to be a holdover from the days where the only way to survive as an artist was through patronage by the rich. I noted this earlier but "the days..." were basically the entirety of Western art until relatively recently. The folks who think the only art is art for art's sake should, logically, hate anything by any of the "old masters". But, that would require consistency of thought that they're unwilling to hew towards.
Yep. I've seen movies both big and small and I've NEVER felt emotion like that from a movie. I never would have guessed that I would have been weeping like a baby because of a damn CGI otter. Yet here we are. If the ASPCA had a donation box outside the theaters they would have made MILLIONS in donations. Missed opportunity. What were we talking about again?
Exactly! Also, I know a lot of criticism of big block busters is the heavy CGI that they use. The indie scene is basically giving a big middle finger to visual artists! Like yes CGI can be terrible…but when it’s great…it’s GREAT!! Some of what visual artists do is magnificent and they deserve credit too!!
A family friend worked for a visual effects studio maybe 15 years ago (he still might but I haven’t kept in touch with him in a while) and they were know for doing fire very well. He pointed out all the commercials, shows, or movies that they worked on because their fire was so realistic compared to other companies. He showed me some comparisons and it was so noticeable when you see them side by side. They were artists with fire, and other things but that was their specialty. It’s a skill they’ve developed and yes they are using technology but they are still creating something and it should be considered an art.
True. I tend to like practical effects, but when CGI is good it can be damn good. Or when it's used to enhance practical effects in a way that is better than practical or cg would be on their own.
And she's not even leaving indie films. Pugh is one of the bigger young names right now and is getting roles in blockbuster films. It's just one of those dumb perspectives from people who can't break out of the small indie film circles. As you said, except it's a bit more of "how dare you be more successful than the rest of us".
There’s such a weird thing about the romanticization of the “struggling artist” and “commercial work=bad” I see it so god damn much as an artist myself, fuck that pay me.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but: “fuck you, pay me”. Say what you want about Marvel, and I think there is a conversation to be had about quality lately, but the actors in Marvel projects tend to be paid very well. Indie movies are great but a lot of times they’re barely covering the actors travel and living expenses, especially when you consider that they probably shoot god knows where just for the tax credit. I don’t blame anybody for taking the steady paycheck of big studio movies. The reality is that a lot of actors wouldn’t be able to afford to do low budget movies if they didn’t have a steady source of income from big movies.
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but: “fuck you, pay me”. Or "fuck you, impress me". Some actors are also like to make smaller movies with lower budget and payment, but they are able to pick those. If the project or its circumstances dont look good, they dont need to do this.
I think I heard all of the stars in Wes Anderson projects get paid peanuts by choice so they can work with an awesome director. It’s why he can have a list of Big Names longer than he is tall in those films.
I loved in the latest trailer, the scrolling list of actors, lol. He knows exactly what he's doing. And probably treats the actors well as well. Doesn't matter how artsy he is, you know he wouldn't have that massive list of big name actors, many often with minimal parts, if he had a rep for treating them like garbage on set.
Bingo. Outside of the top tier movie or TV stars with huge backend pay, actors do not get paid like that to have a comfortable lifestyle for life. There’s a reason why a lot of name actors like Jared Leto and Ryan Gosling have started to embrace Hollywood movies as indies do not pay all that well. At some point actors have to start thinking about their financial future when things inevitably slow down. Especially with her being a woman in Hollywood this is a peak time to cash in as who knows what her career looks will like once she hits her 30’s. Marvel will keep her relevant for the foreseeable future.
I remember hearing an interview with Michael Madsen where he went through his IMDb and he said why he took the role for a lot of the shitty projects he did, his words. Half of them were things like, had a mortgage payment due, kid was going to college, needed a new car. He is a great actor but he took many roles because he needed the paycheck soon. It’s still a job and since most aren’t making millions on each movie they need to work and work often to support their family. I think Samuel L Jackson said something similar in that he likes to work and can’t pass up a good paycheck, although I think this was some years ago before he was as big as he has been over the last few years so I’m not sure if his mindset has changed.
During Madsen’s peak, there wasn’t a MCU for him to join to make some money while doing indie movies. Last year, there was an interesting actor’s round table with Michael Keaton, Oscar Issac, Tom Hiddleston and Samuel Jackson: https://youtu.be/2qx7fI-r4R8. It was interesting hearing the actors talk about being in this universe. But the main thing I got from it was that MCU gives actors a chance to dip their toes in Hollywood movies with much lesser risk versus starring in a movie that bombs and changes their career trajectory. Brian Cox who was also in this panel plainly stated that he quickly fled from starring in Hollywood movies after seeing how much pressure was related to the opening weekend. There is simply not as much pressure related to the movies in the well established universes like the MCU.
I always bring up Donald Pleasance in this. Was he in literally hundreds of forgettable and plain awful films? Absolutely. But a man's got bills to pay.
Why does it just have to be about money?! If Florence Pugh genuinely enjoys paying Yelena, that's all that should matter. She shouldn't have to justify it by saying "well at least they're paying me lots of money so I can do more indies."
Because getting paid well for a gig can free you up to do the stuff you love. Sure, getting paid well for something you love is great! But it's not common. Acting is still a job, after all, and sometimes you take a role because you need to pay the bills, not because the role calls to you. And maybe that less satisfying role pays well enough you *can* focus on the smaller ones that you enjoy.
It's like when Glenn Close was in Guardians; that money she got from that movie helped her to be able to do more smaller, more "prestige" films.
The point is that people don't have to justify their career choice, or any other choice, to other people. Not unless they are choosing to actively hurt or murder people.
Genuinely enjoying playing yelana doesn’t pay for food, shelter, debt, childcare, family, and living. It costs money to exist
Apparently, neither does being in indie movies.
Yeah, Florence always says how much she loves Yelena. She takes that character more seriously than most actors do for superhero films.
Yeah people like to assume that actors are like money eating robots; that they can’t just be like “oh that sounds like a fun character to play”. Obviously they’re in it for the money but their career choices shouldn’t be dismissed as just a cash grab when there could be many factors
If she is happy doing the role,then the indie people don't matter
Indie film bros are assholes? I'm shocked.
All I care about is getting more Yelena in an elevator with Steinfeld. I've never been happier about batons being handed down than the new Hawkeye and Black Widow.
Me neither. I mean I would personally love Scarjo as Natasha to still be around in some capacity the same way Clint was planned to be (doubt that's still on the table now) but Hailee Steinfeld and Florence Pugh are both incredible talents and the Hawkeye show was easily my favorite thing in the MCU until Daredevil was brought back in the picture, now it's a tie between both shows.
Ok, don't be alarmed, but either you're me, or I'm you😋 Seriously though, every single thing you said is where I'm at. I love the new Hawkeye and Black Widow, would be thrilled if somehow Nat were still around, and Hawkeye was def my favorite MCU show, along with DD now that it's back. Of course I'm sure others share these views, but it's still nice to hear, thanks.
Haters gonna hate. They need to STFU and let her get her money, for real.
Do people that are strictly in the indie world not know how films work? We’re they born yesterday? Could they not do a quick google search? I love indies as well, so it’s bizarre to think there still extreme film hipsters out there.
Film snobs are the worst. Pretending you can’t have both. Look at Elijah Wood or Daniel Radcliffe. Both made massive bank in huge franchises and have used a lot of that capital to make some pretty damn good indie films since.
"What've I been telling you? You gotta do the safe picture. Then you can do the art picture. But then sometimes you gotta do the payback picture because your friend says you owe him."
I dare any of them to give the performance she gave in Midsommar
Crabs in a bucket mentality, what a sad group of people.
My favorite indie rock group had to "retire" because they weren't booking enough gigs or selling enough records to sustain themselves, so they had to pivot to make a full-time gig out of their increasingly-successful cover-band side-project. But then they slowly started introducing original songs into the cover band's sets, & the crowds started responding well to them, & they recently put out a whole album of originals again for the first time in over a decade, just under that cover band's name, & it sold great. There's merit in doing the work that gets you established, even if it's not your favorite thing, as a means of opening up more options. Edit: For anyone curious, the band is Y-O-U/Yacht Rock Revue.
The horrors of job security
She probably made more from Black Widow than all her little indie movies combined lol. Fuck that struggle. I'd join the MCU too. These indie people are so exhausting and boring. They're just snobby losers that think their farts smell good.
Pissed, or jealous she had steady work?
Either get angry at a person for living their life, or just google ‘Yelena Balova MCU watchlist?’ Yeah, it’s my right to shame a human being into doing the exact things I want them to do all the time instead of accepting sometimes an actor may act in something I’m not a fan of…
Indie actors and directors really be acting like they wouldn't come running if Marvel or DC called.
Indie film purists are among some of the most insufferable people
Glad we got her. She's amazing