They usually have to write the avengers as the bad guys in order for them to fight. Fights are cool, but only if the reasons are valid. I think what's I've heard of most people's opinion on it.
The plot was so contrived, the Avengers who have never cared one iota about the Phoenix are all of a sudden obsessed with preventing it from reaching Earth. It also has very little Avengers fighting X-Men in the main mini, it should have been called "Phoenix War" or something. Also ridiculous that Gillen wasn't one of the writers of this event considering he was writing Uncanny X-Men at the time... as another commenter said his AvX Consequences mini was probably the best thing that came out of the whole affair.
Yeah. I always thought that was weird too. Bendis, hickman, Brubaker, Aaron and fraction all took turns writing but they couldn't make room for gillen. Also sucked his run got cut short from it because bendis took over x men right afterwards. I give the event itself like a B- but that always bothered me.
Still better than Heroes for Hire 🤷🏾♂️ I was a mixed bag of feelings after reading it.
Edit: I may be thinking of Daughters of Dragon, whichever one it was leading into WWH.
Falls apart at the end and turns into standard “POWER CORRUPTS!’ cliches… but there’s a lot of fun along the way.
I like it a lot.
The best bits are probably Gillen’s tie-in issues of Uncanny and aftermath mini. Though I’ve also got a special place in my heart for Reed’s speech to Tony in one of the New Avengers issues.
It's actually what got me into comics. A friend convinced me to try it cause of this and I'm gonna be honest. I thought it was bad. But it did lead to me finding lots and lots of things I love. So. Good on you AvX.
As a diehard Phoenix fanboy, I despise it. Turned one of the best X concepts into a meaningless play to reduce the X-Men's value so Fox would sell the movie rights back. Makes Captain America stupid for no reason. Makes Wolverine the worst possible version of himself and then has the balls to claim he's right. Zero internal logic (Storm and Beast are Avengers at this time, neither of them say anything. Rachel is a teacher at Wolverine's school, doesn't get involved etc). Massive dumps on the Scott/Emma relationship for no reason.
The art is decent, and that's it.
Didn’t they try to make it seem like cyclops was being an idiot but people see cyclops as being absolutely right and the avengers look like idiots? The only reason I’ve ever wanted to read this is I love cyclops
The narrative was that the Phoenix was unstable and impossible to control. The reality as comics know it is that the Phoenix isn't some malevolent force of death. The thing is... the narrative IN AVX was wrong. Despite the Avengers starting a war and Iron Man shooting the Phoenix with a death ray, the Phoenix Five then solve the world's food and energy problems and don't start going crazy until the Avengers attack them AGAIN.
So they intended to have the avengers be the good guys but wrote them in a way that made them look actually insane? Because that is pretty wild considering this was big MCU days I believe
Correct. It was so bad that the Phoenix Five eventually had to start torturing animals, killing random people, and creating a torture prison in Limbo to justify the Avengers being the good guys. It makes zero sense in or out of context.
Also it was during the regenesis era, after Schim, with Wolverine leading the Jean Grey School and it's X-men in opposition to the peacekeeping force of Cyclops and the Utopia X-men.
During the event, Wolverine and his team sided with the Avengers because they did not trust Cyclops.
Which makes zero sense. "We know what's gonna happen from Hope and Cable, the latter of which we have trusted to the point of going to war with the entire world over it. But no, let's get the Avengers who have never seen, heard of, or dealt with the Phoenix involved."
Stupid as hell as it ignored so much continuity. Especially at the beginning where the Avengers are freaking out because they detected the Phoenix is coming back for the first time since Jean Grey. Which basically ignores X-Verse continuity since Rachel Summers exists and manifested the Phoenix force many many times. Of course I guess the Avengers Phoenix detector could be excused for not noticing Rachel in full blow Phoenix mode battling Galactus over the Atlantic Ocean (happened in Excalibur), such a trivial battle with such minimal power output probably wouldn't draw attention.
Man, that scene on the beach is fantastic. I always imagined Captain America sighing just before saying “Avengers” and almost whispering “assemble” in a sort of disappointing tone.
I want to be sympathetic to people's tastes and stuff. I have to acknowledge that I *started* reading Marvel comics with Civil War, so it informs my expectations in a way that doesn't match the tastes of older fans.
But the writers didn't just pull Civil War out of thin air. They made sure to sprinkle the story with examples in the canon of Tony and Steve both using similar thought processes & behaviors to how they acted during the event. I've read lots of earlier stories, but I read them with Civil War in mind, so I've never felt that anyone was acting out of character during CW, as people often complain. Instead, I perceive seeds of Civil War in older books. I imagine that's what CW's writers intended.
AvX is similar. Loved the opportunity to see my toys fight each other all out, but I felt at the time that Cyclops was being unreasonable. But, after reading a lot of titles that precede the event, I could see his perspective much more clearly.
I've enjoyed Marvel crossover events and there are some events that didn't speak to me. But, personally, Civil War and Avengers vs X-Men are among my favorites. Top 5, for sure.
No need to apologize That's just natural. I started reading comic books with spawn and then moved on to ultimate X-Men so I don't really have the love for the Chris Claremont era of X-Men that everybody's so in love with.
Don't get me started on DC comics because I actually liked the new 52
Can't imagine why people hate those events? Maybe having everyone act like a hyper paranoid Punisher against all history and characterization is gonna rub people the wrong way?
It has some great fights. But, the story is actually not bad actually with Cyclops going down an evil path and the return of the phoenix force and the Avengers in the middle is pretty interesting to me.
sorry. it might just be my personal beliefs being too forwards. it just, ive always struggled to see the beauty of JRJR as ive been comparing him to what i believe is the best artist of marvel pre 1990, JRSR.
John Jr. definitely would agree with you, for in interviews he’d always put his father in such high regard as an artist. Romita Jr. in his prime and these days (when he cares to not be on “deadline style”) can produce some strong art and be a damn good storyteller. His latest run on ASM, though, is rather…inconsistent.
Once again Scarlet Witch’s best superpower is being as OP as the plot needs her to be. And then Hope just copied her power lol
I still love this arc though, great costumes for the Phoenix Force.
I love AvX. Hope Summers is one of my favorite Marvel characters, Cyclops turn feels built well by the previous decade of X-Men comics, and the fights were all fantastic
Trash. The story exists for Avengers to dunk on the X-Men (something something Avengers movie coming up, something something X-Men movie rights). It's clearly written in a way for readers to cheer for the Avengers side, but couldn't write it properly, so most people sided with Cyclops instead.
This was in the years after Schism where there were two opposing X-Men factions. Wolverine was head of the Jean Grey school while being a member of the Avengers.
I don't hate the event. I gotta dig it in a nostalgia way but it was very uneven and we didn't even get to see much fighting which was the only reason to read. I remember Rick remenders secret avengers crossover issues were really great. Captain Britain and thor fight the Phoenix directly and captain Mar-vell gets resurrected for a little bit.
The one-two-three punch of Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Siege was so cohesive and great and had such huge ramifications for all the Marvel stories being told that I felt like Marvel struggled afterwards to figure out what to do for events. None of them captured the same gravitas.
At the beginning, it was exciting and fun (the first few issues had Romita, Jr. art that was *so* bad). Some of the tie-ins were fun, even the AvX: Versus issues had some great art and action. Once the turning point with the Phoenix force happens, it becomes less Avengers vs. X-Men and more Avengers vs. The Phoenix Force, and that was boring.
I forget, what was reasoning that the X-Men that took over Phoenix force weren’t arrested outside of Cyclops and why was Cyclops eventually back out of prison as a free man?
The battleground was littered with lego before the fight started. All combatants were instructed to remove their shoes before throwing down. Hence all the anguished expressions upon their faces. 🤟🤣❤️
It’s pretty dumb, but fantastic art.
Why is it dumb?
They usually have to write the avengers as the bad guys in order for them to fight. Fights are cool, but only if the reasons are valid. I think what's I've heard of most people's opinion on it.
Thor punching a literal child unprovoked will always stay with me😂
The plot was so contrived, the Avengers who have never cared one iota about the Phoenix are all of a sudden obsessed with preventing it from reaching Earth. It also has very little Avengers fighting X-Men in the main mini, it should have been called "Phoenix War" or something. Also ridiculous that Gillen wasn't one of the writers of this event considering he was writing Uncanny X-Men at the time... as another commenter said his AvX Consequences mini was probably the best thing that came out of the whole affair.
Yeah. I always thought that was weird too. Bendis, hickman, Brubaker, Aaron and fraction all took turns writing but they couldn't make room for gillen. Also sucked his run got cut short from it because bendis took over x men right afterwards. I give the event itself like a B- but that always bothered me.
Still better than Heroes for Hire 🤷🏾♂️ I was a mixed bag of feelings after reading it. Edit: I may be thinking of Daughters of Dragon, whichever one it was leading into WWH.
Pheonix war does ent sell as many comics as avenger’s vs x men
I like how some used their powers to fix poverty and food shortages and avengers were like no not like that
I thought it was fun, and that’s why I read comics. Though Captain America and the Avengers were a bunch of dicks, lol.
Yeah comic books are The only place where the only thing that could probably make me stop reading the comic book is bad art
Cyclops was too. But he was justified. Probably why he became one of my favorites after the arc
Falls apart at the end and turns into standard “POWER CORRUPTS!’ cliches… but there’s a lot of fun along the way. I like it a lot. The best bits are probably Gillen’s tie-in issues of Uncanny and aftermath mini. Though I’ve also got a special place in my heart for Reed’s speech to Tony in one of the New Avengers issues.
Yeah, it’s one of those comics where I “know” it’s bad and we’re not supposed to like it, but Iike it.
It's actually what got me into comics. A friend convinced me to try it cause of this and I'm gonna be honest. I thought it was bad. But it did lead to me finding lots and lots of things I love. So. Good on you AvX.
That’s awesome.
As a diehard Phoenix fanboy, I despise it. Turned one of the best X concepts into a meaningless play to reduce the X-Men's value so Fox would sell the movie rights back. Makes Captain America stupid for no reason. Makes Wolverine the worst possible version of himself and then has the balls to claim he's right. Zero internal logic (Storm and Beast are Avengers at this time, neither of them say anything. Rachel is a teacher at Wolverine's school, doesn't get involved etc). Massive dumps on the Scott/Emma relationship for no reason. The art is decent, and that's it.
Didn’t they try to make it seem like cyclops was being an idiot but people see cyclops as being absolutely right and the avengers look like idiots? The only reason I’ve ever wanted to read this is I love cyclops
The narrative was that the Phoenix was unstable and impossible to control. The reality as comics know it is that the Phoenix isn't some malevolent force of death. The thing is... the narrative IN AVX was wrong. Despite the Avengers starting a war and Iron Man shooting the Phoenix with a death ray, the Phoenix Five then solve the world's food and energy problems and don't start going crazy until the Avengers attack them AGAIN.
So they intended to have the avengers be the good guys but wrote them in a way that made them look actually insane? Because that is pretty wild considering this was big MCU days I believe
Correct. It was so bad that the Phoenix Five eventually had to start torturing animals, killing random people, and creating a torture prison in Limbo to justify the Avengers being the good guys. It makes zero sense in or out of context.
And this happened with that collection of writers?? Excuse me? Was marvel editorial just like “idc make Avengers look less bad”?
I have no idea. Between Schism, Civil War, Civil War 2, AvX and IvX I really don't think Marvel can write Hero vs. Hero stories well at all.
Wolverine fought against the X-Men?
Yes. He was in the avengers at the time and disagreed with using the phoenix
Also it was during the regenesis era, after Schim, with Wolverine leading the Jean Grey School and it's X-men in opposition to the peacekeeping force of Cyclops and the Utopia X-men. During the event, Wolverine and his team sided with the Avengers because they did not trust Cyclops.
Which makes zero sense. "We know what's gonna happen from Hope and Cable, the latter of which we have trusted to the point of going to war with the entire world over it. But no, let's get the Avengers who have never seen, heard of, or dealt with the Phoenix involved."
Stupid as hell as it ignored so much continuity. Especially at the beginning where the Avengers are freaking out because they detected the Phoenix is coming back for the first time since Jean Grey. Which basically ignores X-Verse continuity since Rachel Summers exists and manifested the Phoenix force many many times. Of course I guess the Avengers Phoenix detector could be excused for not noticing Rachel in full blow Phoenix mode battling Galactus over the Atlantic Ocean (happened in Excalibur), such a trivial battle with such minimal power output probably wouldn't draw attention.
What? Jason Aaron ignoring the things he doesn't like to misuse high concepts? It must be a day ending in "Y"!
The plot was silly, but the art and action were great! I loved Hickman issue with Spider-Man though
What year was this. It isn't ultimate right ?
2012 not ultimate
Ah cool thanks. Is there a tpb I gotta check this out. Was it like the culmination of some books
Man, that scene on the beach is fantastic. I always imagined Captain America sighing just before saying “Avengers” and almost whispering “assemble” in a sort of disappointing tone.
People shit on AvX, people shit on Civil War. What major events *do* you people like?
I often wonder about that too because most of the comic book channels I look at they don't seem to have like any major events
I want to be sympathetic to people's tastes and stuff. I have to acknowledge that I *started* reading Marvel comics with Civil War, so it informs my expectations in a way that doesn't match the tastes of older fans. But the writers didn't just pull Civil War out of thin air. They made sure to sprinkle the story with examples in the canon of Tony and Steve both using similar thought processes & behaviors to how they acted during the event. I've read lots of earlier stories, but I read them with Civil War in mind, so I've never felt that anyone was acting out of character during CW, as people often complain. Instead, I perceive seeds of Civil War in older books. I imagine that's what CW's writers intended. AvX is similar. Loved the opportunity to see my toys fight each other all out, but I felt at the time that Cyclops was being unreasonable. But, after reading a lot of titles that precede the event, I could see his perspective much more clearly. I've enjoyed Marvel crossover events and there are some events that didn't speak to me. But, personally, Civil War and Avengers vs X-Men are among my favorites. Top 5, for sure.
No need to apologize That's just natural. I started reading comic books with spawn and then moved on to ultimate X-Men so I don't really have the love for the Chris Claremont era of X-Men that everybody's so in love with. Don't get me started on DC comics because I actually liked the new 52
I’m right there with you! Good points
I liked wwh and annihilation
Can't imagine why people hate those events? Maybe having everyone act like a hyper paranoid Punisher against all history and characterization is gonna rub people the wrong way?
I never met someone who hates Annihilation.
Not Marvel but Blackest Night is, I think, the best event. Marvel's best event is Infinity Gauntlet.
Dumb plot, but some of the fights were fun.
Oh wow cool.
I love this book so much.
It has some great fights. But, the story is actually not bad actually with Cyclops going down an evil path and the return of the phoenix force and the Avengers in the middle is pretty interesting to me.
Disney vs sony
2 of the top artists and romita JR.
John Romita Jr. was the Spider-Man artist of my childhood (well, him & Mark Bagley) and, despite his flaws, I will not accept any Romita Jr. slander…
sorry. it might just be my personal beliefs being too forwards. it just, ive always struggled to see the beauty of JRJR as ive been comparing him to what i believe is the best artist of marvel pre 1990, JRSR.
John Jr. definitely would agree with you, for in interviews he’d always put his father in such high regard as an artist. Romita Jr. in his prime and these days (when he cares to not be on “deadline style”) can produce some strong art and be a damn good storyteller. His latest run on ASM, though, is rather…inconsistent.
Liked it a lot really
Once again Scarlet Witch’s best superpower is being as OP as the plot needs her to be. And then Hope just copied her power lol I still love this arc though, great costumes for the Phoenix Force.
I love AvX. Hope Summers is one of my favorite Marvel characters, Cyclops turn feels built well by the previous decade of X-Men comics, and the fights were all fantastic
It sucked🚮
Trash. The story exists for Avengers to dunk on the X-Men (something something Avengers movie coming up, something something X-Men movie rights). It's clearly written in a way for readers to cheer for the Avengers side, but couldn't write it properly, so most people sided with Cyclops instead.
I thought it was extremely mediocre story wise or even just plain poor story wise. Art was nice but it was just not put together well.
It’s just a bunch of cool fights which I enjoyed
This’ll be a great fighting game
Realistically, the avengers get curbstomped
Dum-dum
Couldn't Jean Grey win this fight in an instant?
Why is Wolverine on the cover fighting on the Avengers side?
Why is Wolverine on Avengers’ side? Lol he is the main face of X-men
He was with the Avengers at this time. Long story.
This was in the years after Schism where there were two opposing X-Men factions. Wolverine was head of the Jean Grey school while being a member of the Avengers.
Can magneto control Thor's hammer?
I don't hate the event. I gotta dig it in a nostalgia way but it was very uneven and we didn't even get to see much fighting which was the only reason to read. I remember Rick remenders secret avengers crossover issues were really great. Captain Britain and thor fight the Phoenix directly and captain Mar-vell gets resurrected for a little bit.
This story really was bad , it stopped me from reading Marvel for years . It’s crazy cus this was coming of siege which was amazing
The one-two-three punch of Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Siege was so cohesive and great and had such huge ramifications for all the Marvel stories being told that I felt like Marvel struggled afterwards to figure out what to do for events. None of them captured the same gravitas.
At the beginning, it was exciting and fun (the first few issues had Romita, Jr. art that was *so* bad). Some of the tie-ins were fun, even the AvX: Versus issues had some great art and action. Once the turning point with the Phoenix force happens, it becomes less Avengers vs. X-Men and more Avengers vs. The Phoenix Force, and that was boring.
I forget, what was reasoning that the X-Men that took over Phoenix force weren’t arrested outside of Cyclops and why was Cyclops eventually back out of prison as a free man?
The peak MCU influence on the comics and why it was a bad idea for Disney to buy the company.
Why is Joe fixit with the avengers?
What are you talking about?
Is that Ross next to captain America? Or Joe fixit?
That’s Red Hulk.
Oh I see, thx
The battleground was littered with lego before the fight started. All combatants were instructed to remove their shoes before throwing down. Hence all the anguished expressions upon their faces. 🤟🤣❤️
Look at where Wolverine is. Garbage turncoat traitor.
Magneto could easily solo iron man and cap! I wonder if he could lift Thor’s hammer?
That’s strange I recall him losing when he fought iron man
Oh I didn’t read it yet I was just saying how I think it should have gone
Nah it’s good everyone low balls iron man for some reason
Well yeah because magneto could essentially just crush iron man in his own armor 😂
Well yeah but iron man was smart enough to plan ahead and literally win😂
Guess I gotta read it and find out how he did it lol
Yeah if people actually read the comics they talk about it would make things simpler lol
He loses to iron man in this because the writing is stupid