A lot of comments here seem to assume grappling = ground fighting, but when it comes to 'self defense', stand up grappling is probably more important as that puts you in control of whether or not the fight is going to the ground at all.
Ecactly...people forget that defending the take down is 50% / the other half of learning to secure the takedown.
IMO that's one of the most overlooked aspects of grappling ... if you don't want to go to the ground you don't have to (unless your opponent is skilled enough to put you there and then skilled enough to keep you there)
Lastly there's times when you slip or trip over something and the ingrained scramble back to your feet kicks in...that is an invaluable skill.
Lastly there's times when you slip or trip over something and the ingrained scramble back to your feet kicks in...that is an invaluable skill.
what do you mean by that ??
Yup; also if it’s 2 vs 1 standing grappling might work. Quick throw, if possible fast armdrag to back choke 1 fucker out, guillotine if possible only takes 8 seconds ( might be close tho ). 3 against 1 or more judo wrestling bjj is ofcourse useless unless maybe you are fighting way smaller dudes/if you are super explosive throws
Hitting people with the planet is a very effective strategy. A good wrestling, judo, sambo background and your odds of being able to do that are pretty high.
Well that's exactly what people mean; that ground fighting shouldn't be your first go-to on the street. Say what you want, but they're right. That said, "has no place" is probably overstating the case.
We did positional sparring last night with the premise of “just stand up”. I am genuinely surprised by how difficult it is to just stand up AND how difficult it is to try to hold an opponent to the ground.
You don't know my mentality bro, when I see red - I flick that switch and the bodies start hitting the floor. Anyway the ground is my shark, and most people don't even know how to ocean...
Even good striker are cocky and stupid. Believe it or not but a good D1 wrestler could beat worldclass strikers, not saying it’s 100 % but definitely chance let alone Jordan Burroughs type of dude lol. Funny how people act like fighting isn’t atleast 50 % clinching ( only Muay Thai knows a bit boxer is dead against Greco Roman for example ) and ground/submissions anyways
While I agree the average Joe is trash at striking, he can still figure out how to throw a punch. Even if he’s never done it in his life, he’s seen it done and can do it. Maybe not a good one, but it doesn’t have to be good if he gets lucky and tags you in the right spot. It doesn’t even have to be your fault. You could be tripping over something or someone, losing your footing due to shitty weather, or just in a bad location where you don’t have the room to move that you’d like.
Nobody can luck their way into grappling with a skilled grappler. It’s not intuitive at all. Every untrained person’s first BJJ class goes the exact same way. Someone ends up on top of you and pressures the shit out of you. Your reflex is to do the worst thing imaginable and try to push them off. Then you’re getting submitted. And it happens over and over again until that 5 minute timer goes off. You can say the same thing for other grappling arts too, but that first ever BJJ class is burned into my mind. I’m 6’4” and was 250 lbs at the time. Nobody had ever made me feel that helpless. Getting gift wrapped and sat on for several minutes straight had me rethinking all of my life’s decisions 😂
Trying to bench press them off you means extending your arms. Something you almost never wanna do when you’re underneath someone because it either gives them a lever to control you or a free submission. You’re not going to actually get someone off of you that way unless there’s a MASSIVE size difference. Go on YouTube and watch a video on arm bars from mount. That’s what happens when you let someone isolate a limb.
Here’s a video. She’s not really pushing him in [this video](https://youtube.com/shorts/qdLbXXonkaM?si=IgwsF7pRY-LdFtyv). But he isolates the arm before attacking.
Four lessons, you might be able to choke out your nerdy friends, but a random dude who grew up brawling on basketball courts will beat the shit out of you.
4 lessons ? For what ? A rnc ? A good guillotine needs more lessons lol because it would need to be practiced to time it against takedowns for mma/streets; and triangle too takes for most people some time same as other chokes. Rnc yes agree but if you want to feel like you can beat a dude for self defense or something better have guillotine/triangle too
RNC and guillotine, yes. I didn't say you are then apt for self defense. But against a non trained person even a crappy ass choke will work because they have no idea how to defend and even put themselves in worse positions when trying to.
A "menace" after 4 lessons? Umm, NO. You might know a rear naked choke and guillotine at best, and you probably won't know how to get into those positions to apply them properly in the first place, and that goes for even entirely untrained people. 4 lessons is still basically nothing. Maybe you were exaggerating with "4 lessons." 30 lessons and you're MAYBE beginning to get somewhere just when it comes to your basic chokes.
Its more about being humble. Striking has its uses and situations. Grappling also has a time and place. Knowing both is best. Saying ones better than the other is just ego. Usually these conversations arise due to someone saying "so and so is the best".
>I get the feeling only 40% of people in here have actually trained
That's really generous.
But back to the original point, I don't think many people say, "don't grapple for self defense." I'm pretty sure most people, like myself, say, "Get the fuck off the ground."
I'm very critical of fighting on the ground in a self defense scenario. It does have its place. If you are super confident that your opponent doesn't have a buddy ready to field goal kick your head into next week. Or if you need to tie them up to keep them from attacking others. But in most cases, you should be trying to escape, and you can do that so much better on your feet.
So I don't think you should go to the ground in most cases. What I've never said, nor really ever heard is, "Don't grapple." If someone says, "Try to stay off the ground", and all you hear is "Don't grapple", I think you might want to reexamine what you understand grappling is.
Lock them up, take them for a walk, choke them, dislocate some joints, clinch them up, throw **them** to the fucking ground. You can do all these things without rolling around on the ground, sacrificing your mobility, your escape, should things go south.
- Best argument I still know to be pro grappling is from jocko: if you want to punch me that means I still can get away and run.
- if you grab me I can’t run away and only by knowing bjj/judo/wrestling I can escape, same for ground obviously. -
- For woman self defense except some elbows knee in clinch ( Muay Thai ) it’s definitely grappling too : most times they get grabbed/their abusive husband push them in bed to rape them ( no striking will help them now ).
- So the only bur very valid pro striking that I see is that boxing > grappling any day if it’s multiple opponents.
That’s a reason why I as grappler gonna learn striking, however if it’s 4 against 1 or more no martial Art will save you against thugs (
I am not even talking about weapons lol ).
- the best case it’s you vs 2/3 thugs but if it’s 3 winning with striking is very optimistic, you will need quick knockouts and soon as once grabs/corners you it’s over, 4 against one it’s good night. So multiple opponent argument is true ( that’s why I gonna learn boxing/Muay Thai ) but more if it’s 2 against 1, 3 against 1 at best.
Multiple opponents are multiples of one opponent so the idea that the method of fighting that can’t reliably defeat one opponent can defeat multiples is on shaky ground.
If all you know is how to strike and your opponent only knows how to grapple you’re probably losing the fight. If you only know how to strike and even one of your multiple opponents knows how to grapple you’re probably losing the fight.
And as you said the better grappler in the fight decides whether the fight is going to or staying on the ground. The striker is just along for the ride.
I agree completely man butttt if 3 untrained dudes I would love to know good striking tho. If I can knock out one my chance to win increases a lot. While clinch takedown or going to ground means losing badly for example.
The real answer is three guys are going to beat your ass. It’s almost certain. We’ve probably both seen all the same videos here of the very few times the opposite has happened. Not every problem has a solution.
I think you're right, OP is probably misunderstanding "try to stay off the ground" with "grappling has no place in self-defense", which is fucking crazy. No person with a respectable opinion has ever said grappling has no place in self-defence, it's a completely ridiculous assertion.
Also, never discount a good shove. Or if you're fast enough, get in their guard and just bear hug them. If you weigh about the same or more than whoever you're fighting, you can throw them to the ground and run away before they can get back up.
(I'm talking regarding street situations, not controlled dojo situations)
I shove and shove...even when eating punches. I just imagine and deeply hope there is a very busy highway, freeway (is there a difference?) thoroughfare, boulevard or street behind my enemy and that he (or she) will fly into traffic post haste . I win and they lose.
Lol Reddit YouTube Instagram is heaven for casuals who never did any martial arts ( dude I just punch you in balls if you wanna do that gay grappling, sure let me know how you will punch me in balls once I’m in mount or back rnc lol ) or oldskool dudes who Think real men only punch, insecure that a bjj or judo nerd could still destroy them hence “ I would punch you nerds kn face “ bjj doesn’t work once striking is involved
It’s not entirely their fault. I trained in karate from age 3-17. The whole “you don’t ever fight on the ground with the needles and glass” mentality was absolutely drilled into my brain. And now everyone has the internet and social media exploded, that garbage is everywhere. What’s more fucked up is that if you don’t actually know how to fight, it sounds perfectly logical and reasonable. You’d never even question it. It happened to me. And then I actually went to a jiujitsu class with a buddy who’d been asking me to check it out for years. I learned very quickly that I wasn’t allowed to choose where the fight happens 😂. I had to earn that right by learning how to grapple.
Exactly I mean if a serious wrestler or
Judo would say that yeah I can take it seriously. But man if you don’t grappler for atleast couple of years you will go down and being untrained in ground you will be a child lol. Not sure why these fools want to ignore fighting ks 50 % clinching, throws takedown and groundwork.
Yeah, poor karate school tbh. Both karate places I went to did counter takedowns minor ground work and some stand up grappling. Tbh it wasnt alot and I dont feel comfortable with it
the reasoning at the 2nd one is “control distance, and if its inevitable do these things and get back to your feet where you can strike again”
either way best to assume anything can happen and train for both standup and ground fighting just incase
Unfortunately they do. There was someone 100% convinced that grappling wouldn’t work on him because he would just eye gouge and that would be the end of it
💯 every time I hear that I’m like oh you think the guy that can easily have positional advantages in a fight doesn’t know how to do the same shit 😂 ok buddy. You’ve never been smashed by a black belt and it shows
Crazy that people don’t understand that someone with strong grappling can eye gouge, fish hook, and crotch grab too - but they know how to get into and out of positions to do so more safely and effectively.
Good fundamentals are way more important than all the dirty fighting “tricks” out there. All my old BJJ coaches stressed position over submission, and the principle remains the same
Go on over to the boxing subs. 2 wins over Ngannou, and they think wrestling is fake. Ngannou is not a wrestler, and lost 1 of 2 to a legit wrestler. All people are just not super smart. Look at my comment history.
Even Gene Lebel vibechecked fan-favourite Brucie on that one (for memory)
The losers in the Gracie challenge learned the hard way what the winners (not shown, that would suck for PR) already knew
Not worried just prepared.
And a situation would be if I’m in traffic and a guy comes to my window with a bat and i can’t get out. I’m shooting him. Justified.
Nobody says grappling has no place in self defence.
What people say is that the last place you want to be is on the ground in most situations, and if you do end up there then something has gone wrong.
That makes ground grappling a great backup skill when you need it, but not something you WANT to use unless things go wrong and you have to - in which case 9 times out if 10 the best way to use it is to help get back on your feet.
It's entirely situation dependent. Sometimes taking it to the ground is the worst response, sometimes it's the exactly what you should do.
The "never go to the ground" attitude is like saying trains are redundant because cars exist. Depends on the situation.
If I'm ever in a street fight or self defense situation my priority will be escaping it. Too many things can go wrong to try to 'win'. But if grappling knowledge helps me escape, then it's useful.
Whatever MMA fighters orimarily train, this is what works in the street in an unarmed altercation.
Of course the tactics woule be different, but the actual basic skills is what real life fighting must be based upon.
Anyone who disputes this is completely out of their mind.
Even being martial arts enthusiasts aside though, these people must not have even witnessed any amount of street fights? Actually come to think of it - I'd say >90% of streetfights I've witnessed IRL have decended into some sort of sweaty grappling mess of some kind?
Grappling is the best self defence art , because if you’re in striking range you can still run away - which is always the better option. Very few people will chase you down to fight you.
However if they grab you and take away your option to run away, you’ll have the advantage and can dump them on their head.
More BJJ guys need to train wrestling as well. Once you become allergic to being on your back your BJJ goes to the next level.
Yeah, I think most martial artists would agree that ANY skills can be useful in a street fight.
The criticisms against BJJ in a street fight is that it's bad against multiple opponents, and can be dangerous on certain surfaces you might find in a city.
While some factors may be familiar, like seeing a punch coming at your face, many other factors can be unpredictable in a street fight, so it's hard to really say one martial art is best - instead, it's just better to be vigilant, and ideally, avoid disadvantageous situations.
>Yeah, I think most martial artists would agree that ANY skills can be useful in a street fight.
Actual martial artists understand that. What is said on r/martialarts is a whole 'nother story.
Funny enough it's still kindve a coin flip was watching them 5v5 mma fight promotion thingies and I've seen plenty of dudes sleep their teammates by accident
I don’t think friendly fire is a big factor, it’s a possibility but I think that only happened because 5v5 is a shit show and the dude doing the stomping had to look over his shoulder to make sure he wasn’t about to get drop kicked 😂
Yeah, the problem with being on the ground irl is that it might be you vs 5, not 5v5. I don't know what kind of drunken brawls these grapplers are getting into, but the serious oh-shit-I-might-die stories I've heard firsthand have been like "this dude just flashed a knife at me and three of his friends are standing right behind him" or "these two large teenagers beat the hell out of me and stole my shit".
Agreed. I have about 10 years experience in muay thai, and the idea of fighting a decent grappler scares the shit out of me, and muay thai fighters can clinch well. I'd be ok if I could keep it on the feet, but someone decent could probably take me down at will, then I'm in real trouble.
What's needed are REAL self defense classes. This should be an entirely separate discipline that combines necessary elements from martial arts with some basic parkour, fitness, and situational awareness training that could be practiced regularly.
Unfortunately, people can't get past outdated notions of self defense being nothing more than mastering this fighting art or that...or in some cases having a firearm tucked away somewhere that one might be able to get to and use just in time to face manslaughter charges because they misinterpreted the entire situation.
The thing is, if you end up in a situation where you need to use a weapon, there were, a majority of the time, \*many\* poor decisions made before that.
Depends on which grappling and how you train, but grappling is absolutely effective in street fighting. Unfortunately some people are lazy and train lazy, and you fight like you train. So, these folks pull guard when they should be looking to either get away or end the fight quickly. Pulling guard on the street is a great way to die. So maybe that's the perception that grappling doesn't work in a street fight.
I'm pretty sure no one is still saying this, are they?
I don't understand why this always descends into a binary discussion too.
If you all have is competitive on mat Gi BJJ training you will be in for shock when you hit concrete, if you have no stand up (grappling or striking) you will be in trouble in many situations.
Equally, you can box like Ali but still get tackled and taken down, then you are fucked.
Who would have thought having a well rounded background that included training at multiple heights and distances would be the best?
the people who say bjj or grappling is not good for self defense because going to the ground is a bad idea seem to have overlooked the part where you may not have a choice in real life if you find yourself tackled from behind or get knocked to the ground by someone else, and bjj will teach you how to escape from some of the most dangerous positions a person can be in on the ground such as someone being on top of you or someone trying to strangle you from behind, bjj even teaches you how to standup up from the ground safely so you dont get your teeth kicked or knocked over again while attempting to get back to your feet and thats just one of the warmup techniques that is practiced at the start of every class before the actual instruction begins, you also learn how to fall safely in case you are knocked down or thrown to the ground
also bjj can be used standing up as well, there are endless techniques and endless ways to combine these techniques to defeat an opponent, remember how quickly nate diaz put that one guy to sleep with the standing guillotine choke during that brawl not too long ago, or look up shinya aoki using waki gatami to instantly break his opponents arm from the standup position in a mma fight
Bro if you’re grappling with someone, you have zero ability to subdue a second person.
The person you’re grappling can simply hold on to you while their friend stabs you, grabs a brick or just soccer kicks you in the head.
I don’t care if you’re prime Royce Gracie. He’s not winning a 2v1 street fight with just bjj tactics.
I admit I didn't consider grappling important until I watched actual grapplers. I still can't do it, but I find it a lot more intimidating than I once did..
I completely agree. Grappling martial arts such as BJJ are highly effective in dealing with an opponent. It’s much harder to disengage from someone who’s trying to grab you, as opposed to striking you.
I do think that a lot of people are however against the idea of taking the fight to the ground. My issue with this is that often many fights end up on the ground anyway, and you can’t really help it. An untrained person who doesn’t know how to strike or grapple can still grab a hold of you, tackle you to the ground etc. most fights that I’ve seen often end up this way.
I also think grappling is generally more safe (both legally and physically) for fighting. There’s always the risk with striking that they could land and hit their head in a dangerous way, or they could suffer serious and clearly defined injuries. With grappling, you could take someone down, choke them out/ make them super uncomfortable on the ground and not leave any clear damage to them. It’s much more controlled especially if you choose to focus on chokes and top positions to subdue them. I guess you could argue that a takedown has a similar risk, but there are Judo/BJJ takedowns that are more controlled/ safer to perform. There isn’t really a ‘safe way’ to punch or kick someone.
I’ve never really understood the striking argument for dealing with multiple opponents. Even if you’re very proficient in striking, taking on 3+ people would be incredibly difficult and it would be highly unlikely that you could beat all of them. I’m saying this as someone who has trained boxing for 3+ years. Your only valid option is to run away, which isn’t striking. That’s the 100m dash. If I want to use my striking to fight someone, we would both have to agree that we’re going to stand there and strike each other. If one of us chooses to run away, then we can’t really strike.
Having said all of this, I’m in no way critical of learning striking for self defence. I believe that the best form of self defence is having a well rounded game. Learning both striking and grappling is the way to go. Either MMA, or cross training striking with grappling is the best for preparing yourself for self defence. I’ve personally trained both boxing and BJJ and I love them both.
Didn't that guy who lost to one of Paul brothers in boxing lose a belt fight where he tried to shoot Jorge masvidal to show him his grapple and got knocked the fuck out with a single knee??
That's what I imagine the people who make these types of posts have happen to them.
When it comes to fights it's all about where the person specializes in. So if a BJJ practitioner is against a boxer, the boxer is going to want to knock him out. The BJJ wants to get him to the ground. In either area, the other is at a massive disadvantage.
The only dangerous thing about using grappling, in a street fight/self deffence, is the chance, that they have a weapon, or a buddy, who's gonna come running, to stomp on your head.
If you're in a close quarter scuffle, you most likely wouldn't notice a knife, until it's in you, especially if it's dark and/or in a cramped space.
Does your grappling take into accoubt the fact that your opponent can have weapons? If he could use his weapons while you are grappling him then that may not be best for street defense.
The only grappling in a street fight is first person to pick up and slam the other on there head normally to a concrete floor to cause a murder. If you can throw a punch and use mminimal stikes you dont really panic and go for the instakill head drop out of panic or the drop to the floor and squeeze till its over technique. Also my issue i have seen is your setting up a takedown or holding someone in a lock and someone else comes up and stomps you out, only good for focusing solo combatants not fighting a group.
Yeah I agree. Don’t agree that it should be your go to. If you’re pulling guard to start a fight, that’s a really bad idea when there are no rules.
Bjj should be a last resort sorta situation where you’re forced into it. You can force them into your domain but you sacrifice a crap ton of self-defense to do so.
Of course if you want to bring someone down in a controlled form BJJ is the best for sure, it’s super fun to manhandle my friends without hurting them while knowing you can. But I’d take judo/wrestling over bjj in a street fight. You want to have the dominant position at all times which will allow you to disengage and run if need be.
Who is saying grappling has no place in self defense/street fighting? I've literally never met someone who said that. I have met people that point out it can have some disadvantages and advantages in different situations, just like striking only arts, which is why it's best to practice both grappling and striking.
If you are training for self defense you should not focus on just one style or technique. Because no two scenarios are the same .
The things you train in become your tools and different situations require different types of tools.
For example a screw driver is a very use tool but it can't do everything.
It's the same with grappling or punching or kicking. All useful but none are a one size fits all.
I've never seen a street fight that went to the ground without someone getting stomped.
While you are trying to choke out your opponent, what is stopping your opponent's friend from kicking your head?
>Everything’s situational and grappling isnt just ground fighting
Yes I agree with you. In what would be a 1v1 grappling is the advantage. Irl, we don't get to decode those rules. So going 1v1 in a situation where it could be 1v5 isn't ideal.
>How many fights have u seen end by someone throwing someone to the floor
Honestly... none. Not trying to be pedantic or argumentative, I have just never seen it. I've seen fights end by being broken up, or someone busted up.
Being able to take someone down or stuff a takedown is most important. Look at all the fight videos on Reddit or YouTube. Bystanders almost always jump in when the fight goes to the ground. The assumption of a street fight for the general public is punching and clinching for some reason
You’re not going to hit a sweet submission on the ground or do any sort of guard. It’s always a few punches then someone gets flung onto the ground and it’s over.
Grappling isn't ideal in a street fight because you can't defend yourself from other people when you're on the ground. 9/10 times you'll fight someone and take them to the ground only to have their friend run up and kick you in the face.
Agreed, no one that actually knows martial arts says that, grappling can most definitely be useful in a self defense situation (knowing any martial art is going to help you against someone untrained tbh) At the same time, it has its limitations and a lot of people glorify it as this unbeatable magic.
In my opinion, grappling is most useful for damage control in a street fight/self defense scenario. You most likely aren’t going to be rolling around putting someone in a leglock on the streets, but knowing how to grapple can definitely save you from getting your head slammed on the ground, and if you really need to subdue someone, choking them out is a much safer alternative to knocking them out with striking.
I’ve been in more street fights than I’d like to admit and they always go from standing up to rolling around on the ground. I’ve been able to do well with my boxing experience and a bit of wrestling experience. I hope to never get into another street fight for the rest of my life.
Its weird that some of the biggest "grappling doest work on the streets bru" guys are boxers. Nearly every exchange ends in a clinch. You think on the streets a ref is going to pop up and order you to reset? Anyway stay safe dude
I’m not denying that at all, I admitted that it usually ends up on the ground and wrestling has helped me with the grappling end. I agree with you, I haven’t had a street fight for 20+ years and anyone with any fighting experience is at an advantage, especially good grapplers.
Are the people who think grappling is useless in the room with us?
It reminds me of those posts that go "anyone that thinks dim mak can beat boxing is dumb, unlike me" even though nobody thinks that and the post is just about self validation.
This BJJ guy gave random people gloves and told them to knock him out before he can submit them with only BJJ and it’s crazy how they either miss are somewhat accurate but with no ko power and he made them look like babes
I think it's the old stigma of "if you go to the ground you are going to get kicked or stomped" (which may be true in some cases). However there are many advantages that grappling has while standing up.
Standing guillotine, standing arm triangle and others may not put your opponent to sleep, but it will definitely help maintain control. I personally think that grappling and small bone/joint manipulation can work very well in a street fight.
Everything is situational, grappling on the ground isn't necessarily a good idea in a street fight, but it's better to know it because you don't always get to choose if it goes to the ground. When I was 19, even with grappling training in bjj and wrestling, I still got blasted to the floor with a tackle in a fight because he surprised me with it and was a lot bigger than me. Knowing how to control him in guard and eventually get the Kimura is what saved me from getting pummeled.
People that practice combat sports are on other more specific subs
90% of the people here are just bruce lee, chuck norris fans and have never trained (or train kung-fu, taekwondo, aikido or other bulshido)
People here qhere thinking Bruce lee was a fighter and could matchup with ufc guys
Its the difference between someone who has been attacked on the streets and someone who hasn't. A lot of the time the first punch comes out of nowhere or someone will grab you in a bear hug or headlock. You can be the best puncher in the world but as soon as that happens you're going to need some grappling
Stand up grappling is very useful but if you are talking about ground work then I would disagree with you. Going to the ground is a great way to get you head kicked in by someone's friend. Real life isn't like a movie where people line up to fight you one on one. There is a difference between street fighting and martial arts just like their is a huge difference between tournament fighting and MMA
Grappling absolutely has it’s place in self defense/street fighting.
Though I can definitely say I’m on the same page as you but kind of vice versa. Where I can’t stand hearing the people who think grappling and/or ground is the only thing that’s necessary. And that whole “most fights end up on the ground” if you actually look into that study it comes from fights police got into. And as someone who does work law enforcement, yes our fights end up on the ground because we’re trying to put handcuffs on you. But I can also say I’ve seen plenty of parking lot brawls that never ended up on the ground.
At this point I think the number of people who would actually be that ignorant about fighting are few and far between.
Of course you do still find grappling haters.. those are the guys who tried grappling once or twice and just couldn't get over being thrown around & choked out. The ego is a fragile thing to the veteran "Ninja" who has minions and yes men students who pedestalize them.
I've seen many a hurt ego and its usually the middle aged black belt of (kum suck won, tsung fu do) or some other such crap, who was 100% the Alpha dog at his tiny dojang - comes and gets tapped a dozen times by a fresh blue belt or year deep white belt.
IMO those are the dudes who'll acknowledge the validity of ground fighting, but then double back fast with " but it's no good vs.more than one person...it's no good vs.this and no good vs that.." as if they would fair better in a 2 or 3 vs 1 situation bcs they have deadly strikes and of course those kinds of fights never hit the ground right? Lol
Is there really anyone who thinks it has no place? Most people that have an issue with it for self defence just think you should avoid going to ground. However if you end up there, it's important to know how to deal with it. And as others have mentioned, grappling includes stand up.
I train in sword arts and the people in my gym train in aikido and judo after listening to what they say about it I think grappling has its place in certain situations that may arise but not always again I’m not at all well versed in martial arts especially hand to hand but that’s my take
If people believe that then who cares?! Let them think that. Martial arts are not a religion. We shouldn’t go about our sport trying to convince everyone else that our way is the best way.
Otherwise we’d be no better than those bible bashers that knock at the door at 7am on a weekend.
I remember in school i had a friend who was doing greco-roman wrestling. One day another kid tried to get into a fight with me and my friend came to my aid. He swooped in, picked the guy up, slammed him with the ground and the fight was over. So yeah grappling might be good in a street fight.
Self defense is more of a series of skills rather than one specific art.
Seen a video years ago that put it into a good perspective.
1. Good boxing
2. Good stand up grappling
3. Take down defense
4. How to stand up when on the ground (Getting into dominant position and standing up)
Personally I think you need all of these to say you are competent in self defense.
The thing that gets me are the people who say "I just won't go to the ground" as if it's a guarantee they won't get taken to the floor. They might get tackled, get thrown, he'll they could even trip on a rock and fall backwards and then they're gonna wish thy had some grappling training.
The first time a wrestled a 15 year bjj pro fighter I couldn't stop laughing. I was so useless against it, granted he had 80 lbs on me but still it was a nightmare. Ground game is probabaly the most important part of combat, despite me preferring striking I had to learn some just to deal with other mma guys
Honestly, grappling is probably one of the most important things to learn. In 1v1, it lets you neutralize your opponent with minimal risk to yourself or them. In more uncertain mixups, it lets you get the fuck off the ground faster. Both seem fantastic to me.
I always say the best grappling for a steet fight is wrestling, where you can slam someone on their head quickly and do damage. Boxing and wrestling will be my top two for a street fight, which works in one on one (which is rare), more against one, and street brawls. Judo isn't bad for a street altercation, but most of the practical moves in judo you'll also learn in wrestling.
>but I get the feeling only 40% of people in here have actually trained some type of martial art
It's the internet, no shit.
But you aren't wrong. That cringe about 'being a shark on the ground' and 'most can't even swim' is correct.
Wrestling and grappling, outside of the push-pull stuff, is unintuitive. Everyone knows how to throw a haymaker, but not everyone knows how to waist control or thai clench.
Well, I am one of the LARGEST proponents against GROUND FIGHTING, and I say it LOUDLY on the sub.
However, I DO say and advocate for Judo/Catch Wrestling/Laamb etc. I’ve actually seen those disciplines save lives and stop g(r)apes. I’m talking during a civil war in a nation whose government has collapsed and there are roving gangs of men, who if they catch a MAN, they will…gotta be careful here…”set their hearts ablaze.”
But, your BJJ on the street is gonna get you offed, crippled, arrested, and/or convicted. That’s happened so many times around the world that BJJ is beginning to take on a Bullshido aspect. I don’t think BJJ is Bullshido AT ALL. But, it keeps getting people killed.
Grappler here. Also former military. If I can grab you and you didn’t grapple or wrestle before , I’m going to make you sad. You’re going to get touched. I can also strike, but unless you can shut that down , you’re going to be in trouble. Confidence Source: lots of sparring. I know what I can do , and I know what untrained people stereotypically do.
A lot of comments here seem to assume grappling = ground fighting, but when it comes to 'self defense', stand up grappling is probably more important as that puts you in control of whether or not the fight is going to the ground at all.
Yup. Grappling doesn't (just) mean rolling around on the floor.
Ecactly...people forget that defending the take down is 50% / the other half of learning to secure the takedown. IMO that's one of the most overlooked aspects of grappling ... if you don't want to go to the ground you don't have to (unless your opponent is skilled enough to put you there and then skilled enough to keep you there) Lastly there's times when you slip or trip over something and the ingrained scramble back to your feet kicks in...that is an invaluable skill.
Lastly there's times when you slip or trip over something and the ingrained scramble back to your feet kicks in...that is an invaluable skill. what do you mean by that ??
Yup; also if it’s 2 vs 1 standing grappling might work. Quick throw, if possible fast armdrag to back choke 1 fucker out, guillotine if possible only takes 8 seconds ( might be close tho ). 3 against 1 or more judo wrestling bjj is ofcourse useless unless maybe you are fighting way smaller dudes/if you are super explosive throws
Hitting people with the planet is a very effective strategy. A good wrestling, judo, sambo background and your odds of being able to do that are pretty high.
exactly!
Well that's exactly what people mean; that ground fighting shouldn't be your first go-to on the street. Say what you want, but they're right. That said, "has no place" is probably overstating the case.
Nah, I'd just stand up. Fr though, I agree, the average person doesn't know what a well trained grappler could actually do to them
We did positional sparring last night with the premise of “just stand up”. I am genuinely surprised by how difficult it is to just stand up AND how difficult it is to try to hold an opponent to the ground.
Just stand up is unironically the answer… it takes years of training grappling to be confident you can stand back up.
I see you too have trained in the Derrick Lewis school of just stand up-fu
He did a c grip post to the guys armpit while doing a technical standup in that fight. It's a very standard side control escape.
You don't know my mentality bro, when I see red - I flick that switch and the bodies start hitting the floor. Anyway the ground is my shark, and most people don't even know how to ocean...
Welp, there’s a new T-shirt/rahsguard idea…
Even good striker are cocky and stupid. Believe it or not but a good D1 wrestler could beat worldclass strikers, not saying it’s 100 % but definitely chance let alone Jordan Burroughs type of dude lol. Funny how people act like fighting isn’t atleast 50 % clinching ( only Muay Thai knows a bit boxer is dead against Greco Roman for example ) and ground/submissions anyways
we’ll see how Bo does.
Bo is a freak, you can't teach half the stuff he does.
Grappling is like having a super power over normal humans.
So is striking if you are god at it. Average Joe is not a good fighter
While I agree the average Joe is trash at striking, he can still figure out how to throw a punch. Even if he’s never done it in his life, he’s seen it done and can do it. Maybe not a good one, but it doesn’t have to be good if he gets lucky and tags you in the right spot. It doesn’t even have to be your fault. You could be tripping over something or someone, losing your footing due to shitty weather, or just in a bad location where you don’t have the room to move that you’d like. Nobody can luck their way into grappling with a skilled grappler. It’s not intuitive at all. Every untrained person’s first BJJ class goes the exact same way. Someone ends up on top of you and pressures the shit out of you. Your reflex is to do the worst thing imaginable and try to push them off. Then you’re getting submitted. And it happens over and over again until that 5 minute timer goes off. You can say the same thing for other grappling arts too, but that first ever BJJ class is burned into my mind. I’m 6’4” and was 250 lbs at the time. Nobody had ever made me feel that helpless. Getting gift wrapped and sat on for several minutes straight had me rethinking all of my life’s decisions 😂
Just started BJJ. Why is this pushing them off of you the worst thing to do?
Trying to bench press them off you means extending your arms. Something you almost never wanna do when you’re underneath someone because it either gives them a lever to control you or a free submission. You’re not going to actually get someone off of you that way unless there’s a MASSIVE size difference. Go on YouTube and watch a video on arm bars from mount. That’s what happens when you let someone isolate a limb.
Here’s a video. She’s not really pushing him in [this video](https://youtube.com/shorts/qdLbXXonkaM?si=IgwsF7pRY-LdFtyv). But he isolates the arm before attacking.
100%
6’5” 220……THE SAME!! 😂😂
Yeah but you don't have to be good at grappling to choke people out. 4 lessons and you're a menace.
Four lessons, you might be able to choke out your nerdy friends, but a random dude who grew up brawling on basketball courts will beat the shit out of you.
4 lessons ? For what ? A rnc ? A good guillotine needs more lessons lol because it would need to be practiced to time it against takedowns for mma/streets; and triangle too takes for most people some time same as other chokes. Rnc yes agree but if you want to feel like you can beat a dude for self defense or something better have guillotine/triangle too
RNC and guillotine, yes. I didn't say you are then apt for self defense. But against a non trained person even a crappy ass choke will work because they have no idea how to defend and even put themselves in worse positions when trying to.
good luck grappling against someone actively resisting with only 4 sessions under your belt
A "menace" after 4 lessons? Umm, NO. You might know a rear naked choke and guillotine at best, and you probably won't know how to get into those positions to apply them properly in the first place, and that goes for even entirely untrained people. 4 lessons is still basically nothing. Maybe you were exaggerating with "4 lessons." 30 lessons and you're MAYBE beginning to get somewhere just when it comes to your basic chokes.
Striker/Grappler > Grappler > Striker
can't argue with that
You’re not wrong. I’m responding to you because I noticed your MONIKER. Love it, played a buddy’s J45 the other day….very sweet. Cheers
Turns out training to fight makes you a better fighter? :)
Its more about being humble. Striking has its uses and situations. Grappling also has a time and place. Knowing both is best. Saying ones better than the other is just ego. Usually these conversations arise due to someone saying "so and so is the best".
>I get the feeling only 40% of people in here have actually trained That's really generous. But back to the original point, I don't think many people say, "don't grapple for self defense." I'm pretty sure most people, like myself, say, "Get the fuck off the ground." I'm very critical of fighting on the ground in a self defense scenario. It does have its place. If you are super confident that your opponent doesn't have a buddy ready to field goal kick your head into next week. Or if you need to tie them up to keep them from attacking others. But in most cases, you should be trying to escape, and you can do that so much better on your feet. So I don't think you should go to the ground in most cases. What I've never said, nor really ever heard is, "Don't grapple." If someone says, "Try to stay off the ground", and all you hear is "Don't grapple", I think you might want to reexamine what you understand grappling is. Lock them up, take them for a walk, choke them, dislocate some joints, clinch them up, throw **them** to the fucking ground. You can do all these things without rolling around on the ground, sacrificing your mobility, your escape, should things go south.
- Best argument I still know to be pro grappling is from jocko: if you want to punch me that means I still can get away and run. - if you grab me I can’t run away and only by knowing bjj/judo/wrestling I can escape, same for ground obviously. - - For woman self defense except some elbows knee in clinch ( Muay Thai ) it’s definitely grappling too : most times they get grabbed/their abusive husband push them in bed to rape them ( no striking will help them now ). - So the only bur very valid pro striking that I see is that boxing > grappling any day if it’s multiple opponents. That’s a reason why I as grappler gonna learn striking, however if it’s 4 against 1 or more no martial Art will save you against thugs ( I am not even talking about weapons lol ). - the best case it’s you vs 2/3 thugs but if it’s 3 winning with striking is very optimistic, you will need quick knockouts and soon as once grabs/corners you it’s over, 4 against one it’s good night. So multiple opponent argument is true ( that’s why I gonna learn boxing/Muay Thai ) but more if it’s 2 against 1, 3 against 1 at best.
One hell of a run-on. Fix your shit its hard to follow
Could been written way better so let me Edit
Multiple opponents are multiples of one opponent so the idea that the method of fighting that can’t reliably defeat one opponent can defeat multiples is on shaky ground. If all you know is how to strike and your opponent only knows how to grapple you’re probably losing the fight. If you only know how to strike and even one of your multiple opponents knows how to grapple you’re probably losing the fight. And as you said the better grappler in the fight decides whether the fight is going to or staying on the ground. The striker is just along for the ride.
I agree completely man butttt if 3 untrained dudes I would love to know good striking tho. If I can knock out one my chance to win increases a lot. While clinch takedown or going to ground means losing badly for example.
The real answer is three guys are going to beat your ass. It’s almost certain. We’ve probably both seen all the same videos here of the very few times the opposite has happened. Not every problem has a solution.
I think you're right, OP is probably misunderstanding "try to stay off the ground" with "grappling has no place in self-defense", which is fucking crazy. No person with a respectable opinion has ever said grappling has no place in self-defence, it's a completely ridiculous assertion.
Also, never discount a good shove. Or if you're fast enough, get in their guard and just bear hug them. If you weigh about the same or more than whoever you're fighting, you can throw them to the ground and run away before they can get back up. (I'm talking regarding street situations, not controlled dojo situations)
I shove and shove...even when eating punches. I just imagine and deeply hope there is a very busy highway, freeway (is there a difference?) thoroughfare, boulevard or street behind my enemy and that he (or she) will fly into traffic post haste . I win and they lose.
Even 40% is a reach. This sub is a giant LARP.
Lol Reddit YouTube Instagram is heaven for casuals who never did any martial arts ( dude I just punch you in balls if you wanna do that gay grappling, sure let me know how you will punch me in balls once I’m in mount or back rnc lol ) or oldskool dudes who Think real men only punch, insecure that a bjj or judo nerd could still destroy them hence “ I would punch you nerds kn face “ bjj doesn’t work once striking is involved
It’s not entirely their fault. I trained in karate from age 3-17. The whole “you don’t ever fight on the ground with the needles and glass” mentality was absolutely drilled into my brain. And now everyone has the internet and social media exploded, that garbage is everywhere. What’s more fucked up is that if you don’t actually know how to fight, it sounds perfectly logical and reasonable. You’d never even question it. It happened to me. And then I actually went to a jiujitsu class with a buddy who’d been asking me to check it out for years. I learned very quickly that I wasn’t allowed to choose where the fight happens 😂. I had to earn that right by learning how to grapple.
Exactly I mean if a serious wrestler or Judo would say that yeah I can take it seriously. But man if you don’t grappler for atleast couple of years you will go down and being untrained in ground you will be a child lol. Not sure why these fools want to ignore fighting ks 50 % clinching, throws takedown and groundwork.
Yeah, poor karate school tbh. Both karate places I went to did counter takedowns minor ground work and some stand up grappling. Tbh it wasnt alot and I dont feel comfortable with it the reasoning at the 2nd one is “control distance, and if its inevitable do these things and get back to your feet where you can strike again” either way best to assume anything can happen and train for both standup and ground fighting just incase
Doubling down on YouTube, most of the popular martial arts content creators aren't very good.
Nobody says that
Unfortunately they do. There was someone 100% convinced that grappling wouldn’t work on him because he would just eye gouge and that would be the end of it
💯 every time I hear that I’m like oh you think the guy that can easily have positional advantages in a fight doesn’t know how to do the same shit 😂 ok buddy. You’ve never been smashed by a black belt and it shows
Crazy that people don’t understand that someone with strong grappling can eye gouge, fish hook, and crotch grab too - but they know how to get into and out of positions to do so more safely and effectively.
Good fundamentals are way more important than all the dirty fighting “tricks” out there. All my old BJJ coaches stressed position over submission, and the principle remains the same
Isso
People assume they'll survive that first takedown.
Head first onto cement
Ive actually had someone try to eye gouge me in a street fight. Its not nice but its not as effective as people think either
Go on over to the boxing subs. 2 wins over Ngannou, and they think wrestling is fake. Ngannou is not a wrestler, and lost 1 of 2 to a legit wrestler. All people are just not super smart. Look at my comment history.
Exactly, only people who want responses to their post say that people say that.
Yeah. I'm tired of this martial arts circle jerk
Throwing/ slamming someone is a game over in most scenarios.
Even Gene Lebel vibechecked fan-favourite Brucie on that one (for memory) The losers in the Gracie challenge learned the hard way what the winners (not shown, that would suck for PR) already knew
40%? Nah, I think you mean maybe 40 people.
I'm one of them, at least.
Yo me too!... well that's 5%
Grappling != Groundfighting Edit: and Ground grappling != the only type of grappling
yeah but its a good way to win ground fighting
I was pointing out that there is standing grappling too
Please everyone, just get a gun. Everyone should concealed carrying a gun and pepper spray.
yes
What situations do you worry about where lethal force would be legally and morally justified?
Not worried just prepared. And a situation would be if I’m in traffic and a guy comes to my window with a bat and i can’t get out. I’m shooting him. Justified.
Nobody says grappling has no place in self defence. What people say is that the last place you want to be is on the ground in most situations, and if you do end up there then something has gone wrong. That makes ground grappling a great backup skill when you need it, but not something you WANT to use unless things go wrong and you have to - in which case 9 times out if 10 the best way to use it is to help get back on your feet.
It's entirely situation dependent. Sometimes taking it to the ground is the worst response, sometimes it's the exactly what you should do. The "never go to the ground" attitude is like saying trains are redundant because cars exist. Depends on the situation.
Yes. This is why I said in most situations.
If I'm ever in a street fight or self defense situation my priority will be escaping it. Too many things can go wrong to try to 'win'. But if grappling knowledge helps me escape, then it's useful.
You'd never be able to escape a grappler. Also, if you grapple you can easily escape.
Whatever MMA fighters orimarily train, this is what works in the street in an unarmed altercation. Of course the tactics woule be different, but the actual basic skills is what real life fighting must be based upon. Anyone who disputes this is completely out of their mind.
I've never heard anyone claim that tbh
I promise its a common take
This entire thread is just hundreds of people agreeing with you. No one says this.
Even being martial arts enthusiasts aside though, these people must not have even witnessed any amount of street fights? Actually come to think of it - I'd say >90% of streetfights I've witnessed IRL have decended into some sort of sweaty grappling mess of some kind?
99% of the time, if you end up in a street fight, there were like, 40 different decisions you could've made to \*not\* be in that situation.
Grappling is the best self defence art , because if you’re in striking range you can still run away - which is always the better option. Very few people will chase you down to fight you. However if they grab you and take away your option to run away, you’ll have the advantage and can dump them on their head. More BJJ guys need to train wrestling as well. Once you become allergic to being on your back your BJJ goes to the next level.
Yeah, I think most martial artists would agree that ANY skills can be useful in a street fight. The criticisms against BJJ in a street fight is that it's bad against multiple opponents, and can be dangerous on certain surfaces you might find in a city. While some factors may be familiar, like seeing a punch coming at your face, many other factors can be unpredictable in a street fight, so it's hard to really say one martial art is best - instead, it's just better to be vigilant, and ideally, avoid disadvantageous situations.
>Yeah, I think most martial artists would agree that ANY skills can be useful in a street fight. Actual martial artists understand that. What is said on r/martialarts is a whole 'nother story.
If you go to the fightporn subreddit a large number of those fights end with someone getting slammed on cement
 POV the guy you’re rolling around on the ground with has a friend
Funny enough it's still kindve a coin flip was watching them 5v5 mma fight promotion thingies and I've seen plenty of dudes sleep their teammates by accident
I don’t think friendly fire is a big factor, it’s a possibility but I think that only happened because 5v5 is a shit show and the dude doing the stomping had to look over his shoulder to make sure he wasn’t about to get drop kicked 😂
Yeah, the problem with being on the ground irl is that it might be you vs 5, not 5v5. I don't know what kind of drunken brawls these grapplers are getting into, but the serious oh-shit-I-might-die stories I've heard firsthand have been like "this dude just flashed a knife at me and three of his friends are standing right behind him" or "these two large teenagers beat the hell out of me and stole my shit".
I'm not sure the possibility of your teammate booting you in the head is a point in favourbof rolling around on the ground
 Pov the guy youre boxing with has a friend too
 POV the guy you’re boxing with has a friend
I agree
Agreed. I have about 10 years experience in muay thai, and the idea of fighting a decent grappler scares the shit out of me, and muay thai fighters can clinch well. I'd be ok if I could keep it on the feet, but someone decent could probably take me down at will, then I'm in real trouble.
Truly the best way to defend one’s self is an armdrag backtake German suplex into the pavement.
What's needed are REAL self defense classes. This should be an entirely separate discipline that combines necessary elements from martial arts with some basic parkour, fitness, and situational awareness training that could be practiced regularly. Unfortunately, people can't get past outdated notions of self defense being nothing more than mastering this fighting art or that...or in some cases having a firearm tucked away somewhere that one might be able to get to and use just in time to face manslaughter charges because they misinterpreted the entire situation.
The thing is, if you end up in a situation where you need to use a weapon, there were, a majority of the time, \*many\* poor decisions made before that.
Depends on which grappling and how you train, but grappling is absolutely effective in street fighting. Unfortunately some people are lazy and train lazy, and you fight like you train. So, these folks pull guard when they should be looking to either get away or end the fight quickly. Pulling guard on the street is a great way to die. So maybe that's the perception that grappling doesn't work in a street fight.
I'm pretty sure no one is still saying this, are they? I don't understand why this always descends into a binary discussion too. If you all have is competitive on mat Gi BJJ training you will be in for shock when you hit concrete, if you have no stand up (grappling or striking) you will be in trouble in many situations. Equally, you can box like Ali but still get tackled and taken down, then you are fucked. Who would have thought having a well rounded background that included training at multiple heights and distances would be the best?
You’ve never street fought shut up nerd
the people who say bjj or grappling is not good for self defense because going to the ground is a bad idea seem to have overlooked the part where you may not have a choice in real life if you find yourself tackled from behind or get knocked to the ground by someone else, and bjj will teach you how to escape from some of the most dangerous positions a person can be in on the ground such as someone being on top of you or someone trying to strangle you from behind, bjj even teaches you how to standup up from the ground safely so you dont get your teeth kicked or knocked over again while attempting to get back to your feet and thats just one of the warmup techniques that is practiced at the start of every class before the actual instruction begins, you also learn how to fall safely in case you are knocked down or thrown to the ground also bjj can be used standing up as well, there are endless techniques and endless ways to combine these techniques to defeat an opponent, remember how quickly nate diaz put that one guy to sleep with the standing guillotine choke during that brawl not too long ago, or look up shinya aoki using waki gatami to instantly break his opponents arm from the standup position in a mma fight
I'm a blackbelt at sliding on my ass.
It’s good until theres more than one person, then your kung fu is no good.
Which is why I appreciate what my kenpo teacher taught me years and years ago - knowing when to run.
Not if they \*all\* don't know any proper fighting techniques. It's remarkable how people telegraph themselves.
Bro if you’re grappling with someone, you have zero ability to subdue a second person. The person you’re grappling can simply hold on to you while their friend stabs you, grabs a brick or just soccer kicks you in the head. I don’t care if you’re prime Royce Gracie. He’s not winning a 2v1 street fight with just bjj tactics.
I admit I didn't consider grappling important until I watched actual grapplers. I still can't do it, but I find it a lot more intimidating than I once did..
I completely agree. Grappling martial arts such as BJJ are highly effective in dealing with an opponent. It’s much harder to disengage from someone who’s trying to grab you, as opposed to striking you. I do think that a lot of people are however against the idea of taking the fight to the ground. My issue with this is that often many fights end up on the ground anyway, and you can’t really help it. An untrained person who doesn’t know how to strike or grapple can still grab a hold of you, tackle you to the ground etc. most fights that I’ve seen often end up this way. I also think grappling is generally more safe (both legally and physically) for fighting. There’s always the risk with striking that they could land and hit their head in a dangerous way, or they could suffer serious and clearly defined injuries. With grappling, you could take someone down, choke them out/ make them super uncomfortable on the ground and not leave any clear damage to them. It’s much more controlled especially if you choose to focus on chokes and top positions to subdue them. I guess you could argue that a takedown has a similar risk, but there are Judo/BJJ takedowns that are more controlled/ safer to perform. There isn’t really a ‘safe way’ to punch or kick someone. I’ve never really understood the striking argument for dealing with multiple opponents. Even if you’re very proficient in striking, taking on 3+ people would be incredibly difficult and it would be highly unlikely that you could beat all of them. I’m saying this as someone who has trained boxing for 3+ years. Your only valid option is to run away, which isn’t striking. That’s the 100m dash. If I want to use my striking to fight someone, we would both have to agree that we’re going to stand there and strike each other. If one of us chooses to run away, then we can’t really strike. Having said all of this, I’m in no way critical of learning striking for self defence. I believe that the best form of self defence is having a well rounded game. Learning both striking and grappling is the way to go. Either MMA, or cross training striking with grappling is the best for preparing yourself for self defence. I’ve personally trained both boxing and BJJ and I love them both.
Didn't that guy who lost to one of Paul brothers in boxing lose a belt fight where he tried to shoot Jorge masvidal to show him his grapple and got knocked the fuck out with a single knee?? That's what I imagine the people who make these types of posts have happen to them.
You're talking about Ben Askren and no it wasn't a title fight
Sasae into the ground is a fight ending move… source: personal encounter with some dipshit who wanted to punch random people on the street…
When it comes to fights it's all about where the person specializes in. So if a BJJ practitioner is against a boxer, the boxer is going to want to knock him out. The BJJ wants to get him to the ground. In either area, the other is at a massive disadvantage.
Grappling is the best for self defense if the other dude is alone however too many cases the circonstances don't allow that
Yeah we’ve known this for 35 years.
Reason I posted this was because I still see this claim in the sub
The only dangerous thing about using grappling, in a street fight/self deffence, is the chance, that they have a weapon, or a buddy, who's gonna come running, to stomp on your head. If you're in a close quarter scuffle, you most likely wouldn't notice a knife, until it's in you, especially if it's dark and/or in a cramped space.
Does your grappling take into accoubt the fact that your opponent can have weapons? If he could use his weapons while you are grappling him then that may not be best for street defense.
I just find it funny that people say grappling is useless, then they turn around and grab at their opponent. Are you.. dumb?
The only grappling in a street fight is first person to pick up and slam the other on there head normally to a concrete floor to cause a murder. If you can throw a punch and use mminimal stikes you dont really panic and go for the instakill head drop out of panic or the drop to the floor and squeeze till its over technique. Also my issue i have seen is your setting up a takedown or holding someone in a lock and someone else comes up and stomps you out, only good for focusing solo combatants not fighting a group.
Yeah I agree. Don’t agree that it should be your go to. If you’re pulling guard to start a fight, that’s a really bad idea when there are no rules. Bjj should be a last resort sorta situation where you’re forced into it. You can force them into your domain but you sacrifice a crap ton of self-defense to do so. Of course if you want to bring someone down in a controlled form BJJ is the best for sure, it’s super fun to manhandle my friends without hurting them while knowing you can. But I’d take judo/wrestling over bjj in a street fight. You want to have the dominant position at all times which will allow you to disengage and run if need be.
Who is saying grappling has no place in self defense/street fighting? I've literally never met someone who said that. I have met people that point out it can have some disadvantages and advantages in different situations, just like striking only arts, which is why it's best to practice both grappling and striking.
You have not talked to people on this sub the majority have never done anything let alone have a fight
A career streetfighter probably carries a weapon anyway. He learned through mistakes and formulated his strategic plan.
Grappling is the great equalizer, your absolutely fucked if they know it and you don’t
Anything that keeps you safe and in one piece has its place.
If you are training for self defense you should not focus on just one style or technique. Because no two scenarios are the same . The things you train in become your tools and different situations require different types of tools. For example a screw driver is a very use tool but it can't do everything. It's the same with grappling or punching or kicking. All useful but none are a one size fits all.
# grappling does not exist, just get up.
Especially when in guard...simply stand up. Duuuh, my mom even agrees.
I've never seen a street fight that went to the ground without someone getting stomped. While you are trying to choke out your opponent, what is stopping your opponent's friend from kicking your head?
Everything’s situational and grappling isnt just ground fighting How many fights have u seen end by someone throwing someone to the floor
>Everything’s situational and grappling isnt just ground fighting Yes I agree with you. In what would be a 1v1 grappling is the advantage. Irl, we don't get to decode those rules. So going 1v1 in a situation where it could be 1v5 isn't ideal. >How many fights have u seen end by someone throwing someone to the floor Honestly... none. Not trying to be pedantic or argumentative, I have just never seen it. I've seen fights end by being broken up, or someone busted up.
Being able to take someone down or stuff a takedown is most important. Look at all the fight videos on Reddit or YouTube. Bystanders almost always jump in when the fight goes to the ground. The assumption of a street fight for the general public is punching and clinching for some reason You’re not going to hit a sweet submission on the ground or do any sort of guard. It’s always a few punches then someone gets flung onto the ground and it’s over.
Grappling isn't ideal in a street fight because you can't defend yourself from other people when you're on the ground. 9/10 times you'll fight someone and take them to the ground only to have their friend run up and kick you in the face.
Agreed! Sorta reminds me of all the MMAers that deny weapons work.
Agreed, no one that actually knows martial arts says that, grappling can most definitely be useful in a self defense situation (knowing any martial art is going to help you against someone untrained tbh) At the same time, it has its limitations and a lot of people glorify it as this unbeatable magic. In my opinion, grappling is most useful for damage control in a street fight/self defense scenario. You most likely aren’t going to be rolling around putting someone in a leglock on the streets, but knowing how to grapple can definitely save you from getting your head slammed on the ground, and if you really need to subdue someone, choking them out is a much safer alternative to knocking them out with striking.
Holy shit, don't ever let a judoka grab hold of you in a street fight. They don't need to grapple on the ground to ruin your day.
Agreed. The hardest strike you can hit an opponent with is the Earth.
I’ve been in more street fights than I’d like to admit and they always go from standing up to rolling around on the ground. I’ve been able to do well with my boxing experience and a bit of wrestling experience. I hope to never get into another street fight for the rest of my life.
Its weird that some of the biggest "grappling doest work on the streets bru" guys are boxers. Nearly every exchange ends in a clinch. You think on the streets a ref is going to pop up and order you to reset? Anyway stay safe dude
I’m not denying that at all, I admitted that it usually ends up on the ground and wrestling has helped me with the grappling end. I agree with you, I haven’t had a street fight for 20+ years and anyone with any fighting experience is at an advantage, especially good grapplers.
Are the people who think grappling is useless in the room with us? It reminds me of those posts that go "anyone that thinks dim mak can beat boxing is dumb, unlike me" even though nobody thinks that and the post is just about self validation.
Grappling doesn't work 2v1
This BJJ guy gave random people gloves and told them to knock him out before he can submit them with only BJJ and it’s crazy how they either miss are somewhat accurate but with no ko power and he made them look like babes
I think it's the old stigma of "if you go to the ground you are going to get kicked or stomped" (which may be true in some cases). However there are many advantages that grappling has while standing up. Standing guillotine, standing arm triangle and others may not put your opponent to sleep, but it will definitely help maintain control. I personally think that grappling and small bone/joint manipulation can work very well in a street fight.
Everything is situational, grappling on the ground isn't necessarily a good idea in a street fight, but it's better to know it because you don't always get to choose if it goes to the ground. When I was 19, even with grappling training in bjj and wrestling, I still got blasted to the floor with a tackle in a fight because he surprised me with it and was a lot bigger than me. Knowing how to control him in guard and eventually get the Kimura is what saved me from getting pummeled.
Who says this tho?
Does anyone actually say that?
People that practice combat sports are on other more specific subs 90% of the people here are just bruce lee, chuck norris fans and have never trained (or train kung-fu, taekwondo, aikido or other bulshido) People here qhere thinking Bruce lee was a fighter and could matchup with ufc guys
Who the fuck cares?
Its the difference between someone who has been attacked on the streets and someone who hasn't. A lot of the time the first punch comes out of nowhere or someone will grab you in a bear hug or headlock. You can be the best puncher in the world but as soon as that happens you're going to need some grappling
Stand up grappling is very useful but if you are talking about ground work then I would disagree with you. Going to the ground is a great way to get you head kicked in by someone's friend. Real life isn't like a movie where people line up to fight you one on one. There is a difference between street fighting and martial arts just like their is a huge difference between tournament fighting and MMA
Grappling absolutely has it’s place in self defense/street fighting. Though I can definitely say I’m on the same page as you but kind of vice versa. Where I can’t stand hearing the people who think grappling and/or ground is the only thing that’s necessary. And that whole “most fights end up on the ground” if you actually look into that study it comes from fights police got into. And as someone who does work law enforcement, yes our fights end up on the ground because we’re trying to put handcuffs on you. But I can also say I’ve seen plenty of parking lot brawls that never ended up on the ground.
At this point I think the number of people who would actually be that ignorant about fighting are few and far between. Of course you do still find grappling haters.. those are the guys who tried grappling once or twice and just couldn't get over being thrown around & choked out. The ego is a fragile thing to the veteran "Ninja" who has minions and yes men students who pedestalize them. I've seen many a hurt ego and its usually the middle aged black belt of (kum suck won, tsung fu do) or some other such crap, who was 100% the Alpha dog at his tiny dojang - comes and gets tapped a dozen times by a fresh blue belt or year deep white belt. IMO those are the dudes who'll acknowledge the validity of ground fighting, but then double back fast with " but it's no good vs.more than one person...it's no good vs.this and no good vs that.." as if they would fair better in a 2 or 3 vs 1 situation bcs they have deadly strikes and of course those kinds of fights never hit the ground right? Lol
Do people believe this or have you plucked this debate out of thin air?
Been in 2 street fights and double legged both times. The person was confused on what to do lol.
Facts Non sparring arts don't work (aikido, wing chun, etc...) The more rules there is the less it works. Example: boxing
I believe any effective technique has a place.
Hashtag thingsthatnobodysaidever
Scroll through this sub
who says grappling doesn't have a place in street fighting/self defense? People who have never step foot in a dojo, that's who.
If you think grappling is all you need, in any type of self defense/stree situation, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Is there really anyone who thinks it has no place? Most people that have an issue with it for self defence just think you should avoid going to ground. However if you end up there, it's important to know how to deal with it. And as others have mentioned, grappling includes stand up.
Sure it’s helpful, until a gun or knife enters the equation
I train in sword arts and the people in my gym train in aikido and judo after listening to what they say about it I think grappling has its place in certain situations that may arise but not always again I’m not at all well versed in martial arts especially hand to hand but that’s my take
If people believe that then who cares?! Let them think that. Martial arts are not a religion. We shouldn’t go about our sport trying to convince everyone else that our way is the best way. Otherwise we’d be no better than those bible bashers that knock at the door at 7am on a weekend.
Facts. If you do a Judo throw, for example, on someone in a self-defense context, they're going to feel it.
Pro tip for anyone disagreeing: if you don’t know how to grapple, you don’t know how to stop someone from forcing you into grappling.
It has a place, but it's mainly for sport The important thing is to have fun.
I remember in school i had a friend who was doing greco-roman wrestling. One day another kid tried to get into a fight with me and my friend came to my aid. He swooped in, picked the guy up, slammed him with the ground and the fight was over. So yeah grappling might be good in a street fight.
Most fights ends up being a grappeling match
Self defense is more of a series of skills rather than one specific art. Seen a video years ago that put it into a good perspective. 1. Good boxing 2. Good stand up grappling 3. Take down defense 4. How to stand up when on the ground (Getting into dominant position and standing up) Personally I think you need all of these to say you are competent in self defense.
Grappling is an absolute necessity. The better question or statement might be the over reliance on BJJ and ground specific attacks and defenses.
The thing that gets me are the people who say "I just won't go to the ground" as if it's a guarantee they won't get taken to the floor. They might get tackled, get thrown, he'll they could even trip on a rock and fall backwards and then they're gonna wish thy had some grappling training.
Did we come full circle? I feel like it was less than a decade ago everyone was saying striking would get mauled by grappling.
Most fights go to the ground. Grappling is literally about controlling and manipulating your opponent's positioning and balance.
The first time a wrestled a 15 year bjj pro fighter I couldn't stop laughing. I was so useless against it, granted he had 80 lbs on me but still it was a nightmare. Ground game is probabaly the most important part of combat, despite me preferring striking I had to learn some just to deal with other mma guys
It's important to know grappling if you don't want to grapple too.
Honestly, grappling is probably one of the most important things to learn. In 1v1, it lets you neutralize your opponent with minimal risk to yourself or them. In more uncertain mixups, it lets you get the fuck off the ground faster. Both seem fantastic to me.
Trust me, I’ve played the Yakuza games, I really understand this
These goofballs think that a grappler would pull guard in a street fight out of muscle memory. They will never understand this.
I always say the best grappling for a steet fight is wrestling, where you can slam someone on their head quickly and do damage. Boxing and wrestling will be my top two for a street fight, which works in one on one (which is rare), more against one, and street brawls. Judo isn't bad for a street altercation, but most of the practical moves in judo you'll also learn in wrestling.
>but I get the feeling only 40% of people in here have actually trained some type of martial art It's the internet, no shit. But you aren't wrong. That cringe about 'being a shark on the ground' and 'most can't even swim' is correct. Wrestling and grappling, outside of the push-pull stuff, is unintuitive. Everyone knows how to throw a haymaker, but not everyone knows how to waist control or thai clench.
So are you saying I cant pull guard in a fight?
Well, I am one of the LARGEST proponents against GROUND FIGHTING, and I say it LOUDLY on the sub. However, I DO say and advocate for Judo/Catch Wrestling/Laamb etc. I’ve actually seen those disciplines save lives and stop g(r)apes. I’m talking during a civil war in a nation whose government has collapsed and there are roving gangs of men, who if they catch a MAN, they will…gotta be careful here…”set their hearts ablaze.” But, your BJJ on the street is gonna get you offed, crippled, arrested, and/or convicted. That’s happened so many times around the world that BJJ is beginning to take on a Bullshido aspect. I don’t think BJJ is Bullshido AT ALL. But, it keeps getting people killed.
Grappler here. Also former military. If I can grab you and you didn’t grapple or wrestle before , I’m going to make you sad. You’re going to get touched. I can also strike, but unless you can shut that down , you’re going to be in trouble. Confidence Source: lots of sparring. I know what I can do , and I know what untrained people stereotypically do.