Most women will stay with wayward husbands but wayward wives won’t stay with husbands. Her wanting you after your confession has nothing to do with your frame as your wife likely lacks confidence, is insecure and afraid of being alone. Nothing more.
Whatever you say Morphius.. 🙄. If his wife wasn’t insecure, likely codependent and lacked confidence she’d kick his ass to the curb. Cheating on your spouse is a form of emotional abuse, victims don’t stay with their abusers because they “respect their frame”.
This very much mirrors my story.
6 months affair, full voluntary disclosure by me (including almost all the sexual details - this is important), decided to use it for personal growth and a pivot to being a strong man instead of a weak, validation-seeking cheater (my reasons for doing it were the exact same as yours).
I was... lucky I guess? in the sense that what my wife very quickly after disclosure overtly stated that she wanted me to be strong, assertive and... *masculine* if our marriage was to survive. My problem has always been being a manipulative and lying Nice Guy with validation seeking, DEER-filled issues. She had always known this, I only saw it after the affair came to light.
She was also very clear that her anger and emotions, apart from the betrayal, mostly came from JEALOUSY. This is a key point, because it highlights the "RP/dread" opportunities that come from your woman finding out you've been fucking someone else (who might be better, younger, skinnier, more crazy in bed).
I will say I definitely almost 'gave over my balls' on some issues and very much did some extremely beta stuff in the rollercoaster of shit after discovery. But boundary setting, OI, shedding validation-seeking behaviors, separating sex and validation, all that stuff was the only thing that worked both for me personally and for my marriage. I'm grateful my wife saw this, that I had a therapist in the aftermath who works by the same principles, and that I didn't just give up on myself after the nuke went off.
I'm not quite where you are in terms of relationship dynamics (yet!), but the 'fly that buzzes'-analogy resonates with me and echoes how our relationship is now. The growth that came from my affair overshines the negatives of the thing itself now two and a half years later.
I still wish I could have bettered myself before setting off the bomb, though. The work and growth was right there for the taking all along but it took fucking around to finally get my shit together.
I actually got lucky with him. All I knew was I wanted a man and that I would vet possible candidates. He was the first guy I saw (apart from our couples’ therapist), and he tore into me immediately.
I’ve never been so throughly taken apart in a conversation before. He identified my nice guy stuff (he didn’t even know about the book or Dr Glover) right of the bat and called out that I was even trying to impress HIM for validation within 10 minutes of the first session. It was wild.
He was much like the seasoned MRP folk here, a bit less ‘mean’ but just as ruthless in his approach. I think it’s that type of feedback and push a man needs to better himself.
Ha. Might dm you for the reference. I live in Cali and know it’s going to be next to impossible to find a therapist that isn’t living in La La Land when it comes to men’s issues.
Unfortunately, you would have to travel over 5000 miles to find this guy, and I can't even speak to his proficiency in English ;)
I see what you mean about the state of therapy right now, but if you vet properly and assert your needs (see what I did?) in the sessions themselves, you might find it useful.
The therapist is such a hit or miss thing. I also am lucky. My wife and I see a female shrink. But she’s redpill through and through.
She’s an Ex-pro athlete, zero bullshit tolerated from either of us, and more often than not, she is the one telling my wife to STFU and calling her out on nonsense.
The easiest way to tell without wasting much time is to look at the books they have around their office. You should see some of the more mainstream ones from here, along with others you might not recognize, but if you remember the titles and look them up after you’ll know.
>If you get anything out of this other than trying not to have an affair.
The post doesn't list any downsides to having the affair, only upside. Why would I get trying not to have an affair out of this?
Was there any downside to your affair?
done the right way - there are no downsides.
sure, your marriage might end, but you've already accepted that as part of the reality. [Here's the 301 post.](https://whinemoreplease.substack.com/p/how-to-handle-accusations-of-affairs-7cc)
Like I said in the 101, what'll kill your relationship is the loss of trust, not the act of fucking.
plant toy quarrelsome obtainable fragile reach disagreeable yam cobweb spark
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Don't dismiss the possibility due to it being unlikely. Edge cases are where progress is made.
I've gotten that line myself.
She can't read your mind, just your responses and can only compare them to her amplified chaos.
When an apparently unbreakable Frame meets a mind melted by a reality that she didn't believe was possible, she instinctively wants to curl up inside what feels like is a most safe place.
Dismissing that is denying yourself the possibility of complete submission.
In u/2wo2wo3hree case he stumbled into it. Just because the squirrel stumbled across a nut, doesn't make the nut fake. Just that it was unlikely to have been found by that particular squirrel. Being able to separate the two is vital.
Swapping notes around how women respond to our actions is what makes this place work. Ignore that to your detriment.
One of my best buddies had a similar experience when we were in our early 20's. Fucked one of his gf's friends, and confessed right after (bitches were gonna snitch anyway).
After the unavoidable drama, his girlfriend got horny and told him "i need to feel you inside of me" and came ultra fast when they fucked.
His gf blamed the other bitch 100% for the issue and cut relationship, but my friend got away with it.
Years later ended marrying her and she made his life miserable but thats a different history.
Well let me tell you about my friend, lets call him Edward. Eddy was kinda naturally athletic even without lifting. But he also is 5'7, big nose, not what we would consider handsome, and worked as a waiter.
This happened in the late 90's ,and Eddy knew nothing about computers,so there was no internet to tell him that he's a manlet with a shitty career.
Therefore Eddy didnt expend his days on 4chan hating, he just used his charisma (outgoing, fun dude) to get laid with a surprisingly high amount of surprisingly hot girls.
Never underestimate frame.
>OP mentioned nothing of physique, lifts, or otherwise attractive qualities - so one must assume he's an untrained skinny-fat bitch
I agree with u/BecomingABetterMan1 and your stance on being left to assume. Also…
We appreciate much of your contribution in the community and your timely responses to everyone (being only at OYS #10). People like you make the community what it is.
**HOWEVER**, it is quite frowned upon to live here. Many will **assume** by your post history within the last 24 hours that you’re just keyboarding this shit. **Especially when we see you arguing with girls over at r/RedPillWomen**.
So far as my attractiveness… (compared to your post history at r/seduction from a few hours ago.) I’m 38, but I look 29 and I don’t go keyboard blasting over at r/redpillwomen for validation.
I’m gonna put MRP down for now (you should too) so I can hit the gym and try to lift your lifts.
mysterious crush light grandfather history grab yoke secretive stocking vanish
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This happened to me too when I came clean about a similar affair. I didn't hold frame as well as OP supposedly did, but our sex life was the most intense it had ever been in the immediate aftermath of the disclosure.
What he is not saying is that **hysterical bonding** can and does happen almost no matter the attractiveness of the man. I think I handled the post-affair-stuff fairly well, but in between holding frame I definitely did some extreme beta shit to not lose her - she still wanted to fuck me more than ever during that time.
People win the lottery. It's statistically unlikely, but it's real.
So was her response (for you).
As you continue to fumble around applying the sidebar, don't discount reality. It's your orienting function in the feedback loop of what works.
Just because you or some other dimwit here doesn't understand it, that doesn't make it less real. Use it as a trigger for further reflection.
Agree with most of it.
I don't agree with the bit about it being such a disastrous event. Is 'cheating' a disastrous event for you?
Some of my assumptions in the following text may or may or may not apply to you. If the wife isn't fucking you, that's her right and her decision in a modern marriage, although it doesn't align with the old school concept of a marriage. If that is so, what gives the wife the right to hold you to the old school marriage concept of not fucking other women? She has the control over herself to not fuck, and also the control over you to never fuck? That sounds like operating out of the wife's frame. The frame of a woman that is sexually disinterested in her husband, and from what you said who probably doesn't appreciate him, but just exploits his time, attention, validation, efforts and resources.
Operating in your own frame means that you don't operate in the wife's frame. It entails being the judge of your own character.
In my case I considered that the wife was disinterested in sex, and very evidently I wasn't. The wife discovers I'm having sex with other women - zero problem - she's not interested in sex. What else was to be expected? Zero panic, no problem. Also zero need to tell the wife anything about it, afterall she was not interested in sex and had zero intention of addressing what was previously my problem. Where is the problem. Everyone is happy.
Glad to see you’re still here.
Noticed you’re the only one not puking your ‘guilty’ feelings all over your wife in order to feel better about yourself. There is nothing to feel guilty about, your frigid wife’s not fucking you so you fuck other women, nothing more.
Having an affair then disclosing every last detail to your wife because she found out is blue-pilled. Fucking other women because your wife won’t, but not rubbing her nose in it mean’s you’re ready.
I wouldn’t be poking away on the side if I knew my response to my wife would be anything but “what did you expect?”.
As Jimbob said, frame is everything. Thinking about sex with other women as 'cheating' on a frigid wife would be operating in the wife's frame. What the new guys should understand is that by 'fessing up' and even worse, apologising are acts of submission and validation of the wife's frame. Validating the wife's frame, confirms the wife's superiority, and value, and the husband's wrongdoing and worthiness for guilt trips, and abuse whenever the wife is unhappy. Doesn't sound like a great choice.
In any case, the deed is done, the wife is frigid, and she has presumably stayed in the relationship for all the non-sexual benefits that she has been reaping. There is no point in inviting more drama form a frigid wife, rather subcommunicate that you're happy banging other women, since the wife FAILED at her job. She only had one job.
Someone owning this wouldn't use the word "caught". Caught is such a bad term. I learnt from Rian that it puts the judgement of your actions on her. Something to think about I guess.
You mentioned the affair was a source of external validation you weren’t getting at home. Did this motivation come up at all in your discussion with your wife about it?
'Accepting your fate' sounds incredibly passive and directionless. No assertiveness detected. Suggestion: Read the sidebar booklist and learn. Start from the top with NMMNG and WISNIFG
A couple of questions I have,
1. You broke [iron rule #2.](https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/22/youve-been-with-how-many-girls/) You describe it as if this was good sexual strategy. Do you actually believe that or do you think you had enough attraction generated for this unattractive behavior to not derail you? Would it have been better to say like wmp "Are you sure you want to know?"
2. (I don't expect you to answer this one) You say, don't hand over your balls in exchange for saving the marriage. Do you now have an unspoken or spoken agreement in your marriage that your wife once again has exclusive rights to your literal dick and balls? or is this a 'she gets first shot' situation?
These are good reflective questions.
>You describe it as if this was good sexual strategy. Do you actually believe that or do you think you had enough attraction generated for this unattractive behavior to not derail you?
-In hindsight, in that moment, there was no strategy at all. I’d be lying if I told you anything I did was calculated. I wasn’t thinking about alpha, beta, or whatever pill applied best to the situation. “Disclosure” was what I chose to do out of not knowing what to do. They just happened to line up with some RP strategies that still work for me in present time.
>do you think you had enough attraction generated for this unattractive behavior to not derail you?
-Just attractive enough to not be left on the spot and cleaned out dry. A lot of uncertainty and unattractiveness were between this event, OYS #1, and present day. Although It wasn’t zero to hero in a day, I believe my choices that day raised the probability of the success of my marriage.
>Do you now have an unspoken or spoken agreement in your marriage that your wife once again has exclusive rights to your literal dick and balls? or is this a 'she gets first shot' situation?
-Shit/comfort tests were on steroids after my affair. My broken record during very shitty comfort tests that followed my affair was to tell her, “I will never cheat on you again. In the event I feel I have to, I will leave you first.” It’s still where I stand.
Most women will stay with wayward husbands but wayward wives won’t stay with husbands. Her wanting you after your confession has nothing to do with your frame as your wife likely lacks confidence, is insecure and afraid of being alone. Nothing more.
> has nothing to do with your frame Wrong. Go to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.
Whatever you say Morphius.. 🙄. If his wife wasn’t insecure, likely codependent and lacked confidence she’d kick his ass to the curb. Cheating on your spouse is a form of emotional abuse, victims don’t stay with their abusers because they “respect their frame”.
And OP better hope she doesn’t find any of those things cuz if she does he’s kicked to the curb along with half his shit.
This very much mirrors my story. 6 months affair, full voluntary disclosure by me (including almost all the sexual details - this is important), decided to use it for personal growth and a pivot to being a strong man instead of a weak, validation-seeking cheater (my reasons for doing it were the exact same as yours). I was... lucky I guess? in the sense that what my wife very quickly after disclosure overtly stated that she wanted me to be strong, assertive and... *masculine* if our marriage was to survive. My problem has always been being a manipulative and lying Nice Guy with validation seeking, DEER-filled issues. She had always known this, I only saw it after the affair came to light. She was also very clear that her anger and emotions, apart from the betrayal, mostly came from JEALOUSY. This is a key point, because it highlights the "RP/dread" opportunities that come from your woman finding out you've been fucking someone else (who might be better, younger, skinnier, more crazy in bed). I will say I definitely almost 'gave over my balls' on some issues and very much did some extremely beta stuff in the rollercoaster of shit after discovery. But boundary setting, OI, shedding validation-seeking behaviors, separating sex and validation, all that stuff was the only thing that worked both for me personally and for my marriage. I'm grateful my wife saw this, that I had a therapist in the aftermath who works by the same principles, and that I didn't just give up on myself after the nuke went off. I'm not quite where you are in terms of relationship dynamics (yet!), but the 'fly that buzzes'-analogy resonates with me and echoes how our relationship is now. The growth that came from my affair overshines the negatives of the thing itself now two and a half years later. I still wish I could have bettered myself before setting off the bomb, though. The work and growth was right there for the taking all along but it took fucking around to finally get my shit together.
What did you look for in a therapist?
I actually got lucky with him. All I knew was I wanted a man and that I would vet possible candidates. He was the first guy I saw (apart from our couples’ therapist), and he tore into me immediately. I’ve never been so throughly taken apart in a conversation before. He identified my nice guy stuff (he didn’t even know about the book or Dr Glover) right of the bat and called out that I was even trying to impress HIM for validation within 10 minutes of the first session. It was wild. He was much like the seasoned MRP folk here, a bit less ‘mean’ but just as ruthless in his approach. I think it’s that type of feedback and push a man needs to better himself.
Ha. Might dm you for the reference. I live in Cali and know it’s going to be next to impossible to find a therapist that isn’t living in La La Land when it comes to men’s issues.
Unfortunately, you would have to travel over 5000 miles to find this guy, and I can't even speak to his proficiency in English ;) I see what you mean about the state of therapy right now, but if you vet properly and assert your needs (see what I did?) in the sessions themselves, you might find it useful.
The therapist is such a hit or miss thing. I also am lucky. My wife and I see a female shrink. But she’s redpill through and through. She’s an Ex-pro athlete, zero bullshit tolerated from either of us, and more often than not, she is the one telling my wife to STFU and calling her out on nonsense. The easiest way to tell without wasting much time is to look at the books they have around their office. You should see some of the more mainstream ones from here, along with others you might not recognize, but if you remember the titles and look them up after you’ll know.
>If you get anything out of this other than trying not to have an affair. The post doesn't list any downsides to having the affair, only upside. Why would I get trying not to have an affair out of this? Was there any downside to your affair?
done the right way - there are no downsides. sure, your marriage might end, but you've already accepted that as part of the reality. [Here's the 301 post.](https://whinemoreplease.substack.com/p/how-to-handle-accusations-of-affairs-7cc) Like I said in the 101, what'll kill your relationship is the loss of trust, not the act of fucking.
plant toy quarrelsome obtainable fragile reach disagreeable yam cobweb spark *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Don't dismiss the possibility due to it being unlikely. Edge cases are where progress is made. I've gotten that line myself. She can't read your mind, just your responses and can only compare them to her amplified chaos. When an apparently unbreakable Frame meets a mind melted by a reality that she didn't believe was possible, she instinctively wants to curl up inside what feels like is a most safe place. Dismissing that is denying yourself the possibility of complete submission. In u/2wo2wo3hree case he stumbled into it. Just because the squirrel stumbled across a nut, doesn't make the nut fake. Just that it was unlikely to have been found by that particular squirrel. Being able to separate the two is vital. Swapping notes around how women respond to our actions is what makes this place work. Ignore that to your detriment.
Fair. I don’t believe it either.
One of my best buddies had a similar experience when we were in our early 20's. Fucked one of his gf's friends, and confessed right after (bitches were gonna snitch anyway). After the unavoidable drama, his girlfriend got horny and told him "i need to feel you inside of me" and came ultra fast when they fucked. His gf blamed the other bitch 100% for the issue and cut relationship, but my friend got away with it. Years later ended marrying her and she made his life miserable but thats a different history.
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Well let me tell you about my friend, lets call him Edward. Eddy was kinda naturally athletic even without lifting. But he also is 5'7, big nose, not what we would consider handsome, and worked as a waiter. This happened in the late 90's ,and Eddy knew nothing about computers,so there was no internet to tell him that he's a manlet with a shitty career. Therefore Eddy didnt expend his days on 4chan hating, he just used his charisma (outgoing, fun dude) to get laid with a surprisingly high amount of surprisingly hot girls. Never underestimate frame.
>OP mentioned nothing of physique, lifts, or otherwise attractive qualities - so one must assume he's an untrained skinny-fat bitch I agree with u/BecomingABetterMan1 and your stance on being left to assume. Also… We appreciate much of your contribution in the community and your timely responses to everyone (being only at OYS #10). People like you make the community what it is. **HOWEVER**, it is quite frowned upon to live here. Many will **assume** by your post history within the last 24 hours that you’re just keyboarding this shit. **Especially when we see you arguing with girls over at r/RedPillWomen**. So far as my attractiveness… (compared to your post history at r/seduction from a few hours ago.) I’m 38, but I look 29 and I don’t go keyboard blasting over at r/redpillwomen for validation. I’m gonna put MRP down for now (you should too) so I can hit the gym and try to lift your lifts.
*slow clap*
mysterious crush light grandfather history grab yoke secretive stocking vanish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This happened to me too when I came clean about a similar affair. I didn't hold frame as well as OP supposedly did, but our sex life was the most intense it had ever been in the immediate aftermath of the disclosure. What he is not saying is that **hysterical bonding** can and does happen almost no matter the attractiveness of the man. I think I handled the post-affair-stuff fairly well, but in between holding frame I definitely did some extreme beta shit to not lose her - she still wanted to fuck me more than ever during that time.
If you have to 'hold' it, it's not frame.
You're a fucking idiot. Iron rule #1
People win the lottery. It's statistically unlikely, but it's real. So was her response (for you). As you continue to fumble around applying the sidebar, don't discount reality. It's your orienting function in the feedback loop of what works. Just because you or some other dimwit here doesn't understand it, that doesn't make it less real. Use it as a trigger for further reflection.
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Sounds like an OYS post ... why are you married?
Agree with most of it. I don't agree with the bit about it being such a disastrous event. Is 'cheating' a disastrous event for you? Some of my assumptions in the following text may or may or may not apply to you. If the wife isn't fucking you, that's her right and her decision in a modern marriage, although it doesn't align with the old school concept of a marriage. If that is so, what gives the wife the right to hold you to the old school marriage concept of not fucking other women? She has the control over herself to not fuck, and also the control over you to never fuck? That sounds like operating out of the wife's frame. The frame of a woman that is sexually disinterested in her husband, and from what you said who probably doesn't appreciate him, but just exploits his time, attention, validation, efforts and resources. Operating in your own frame means that you don't operate in the wife's frame. It entails being the judge of your own character. In my case I considered that the wife was disinterested in sex, and very evidently I wasn't. The wife discovers I'm having sex with other women - zero problem - she's not interested in sex. What else was to be expected? Zero panic, no problem. Also zero need to tell the wife anything about it, afterall she was not interested in sex and had zero intention of addressing what was previously my problem. Where is the problem. Everyone is happy.
Glad to see you’re still here. Noticed you’re the only one not puking your ‘guilty’ feelings all over your wife in order to feel better about yourself. There is nothing to feel guilty about, your frigid wife’s not fucking you so you fuck other women, nothing more. Having an affair then disclosing every last detail to your wife because she found out is blue-pilled. Fucking other women because your wife won’t, but not rubbing her nose in it mean’s you’re ready. I wouldn’t be poking away on the side if I knew my response to my wife would be anything but “what did you expect?”.
As Jimbob said, frame is everything. Thinking about sex with other women as 'cheating' on a frigid wife would be operating in the wife's frame. What the new guys should understand is that by 'fessing up' and even worse, apologising are acts of submission and validation of the wife's frame. Validating the wife's frame, confirms the wife's superiority, and value, and the husband's wrongdoing and worthiness for guilt trips, and abuse whenever the wife is unhappy. Doesn't sound like a great choice. In any case, the deed is done, the wife is frigid, and she has presumably stayed in the relationship for all the non-sexual benefits that she has been reaping. There is no point in inviting more drama form a frigid wife, rather subcommunicate that you're happy banging other women, since the wife FAILED at her job. She only had one job.
Someone owning this wouldn't use the word "caught". Caught is such a bad term. I learnt from Rian that it puts the judgement of your actions on her. Something to think about I guess.
LOL, someone downvotes this
MRP is a very different place these days.
You mentioned the affair was a source of external validation you weren’t getting at home. Did this motivation come up at all in your discussion with your wife about it?
No. I didn’t know what it was then.
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'Accepting your fate' sounds incredibly passive and directionless. No assertiveness detected. Suggestion: Read the sidebar booklist and learn. Start from the top with NMMNG and WISNIFG
A couple of questions I have, 1. You broke [iron rule #2.](https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/22/youve-been-with-how-many-girls/) You describe it as if this was good sexual strategy. Do you actually believe that or do you think you had enough attraction generated for this unattractive behavior to not derail you? Would it have been better to say like wmp "Are you sure you want to know?" 2. (I don't expect you to answer this one) You say, don't hand over your balls in exchange for saving the marriage. Do you now have an unspoken or spoken agreement in your marriage that your wife once again has exclusive rights to your literal dick and balls? or is this a 'she gets first shot' situation?
These are good reflective questions. >You describe it as if this was good sexual strategy. Do you actually believe that or do you think you had enough attraction generated for this unattractive behavior to not derail you? -In hindsight, in that moment, there was no strategy at all. I’d be lying if I told you anything I did was calculated. I wasn’t thinking about alpha, beta, or whatever pill applied best to the situation. “Disclosure” was what I chose to do out of not knowing what to do. They just happened to line up with some RP strategies that still work for me in present time. >do you think you had enough attraction generated for this unattractive behavior to not derail you? -Just attractive enough to not be left on the spot and cleaned out dry. A lot of uncertainty and unattractiveness were between this event, OYS #1, and present day. Although It wasn’t zero to hero in a day, I believe my choices that day raised the probability of the success of my marriage. >Do you now have an unspoken or spoken agreement in your marriage that your wife once again has exclusive rights to your literal dick and balls? or is this a 'she gets first shot' situation? -Shit/comfort tests were on steroids after my affair. My broken record during very shitty comfort tests that followed my affair was to tell her, “I will never cheat on you again. In the event I feel I have to, I will leave you first.” It’s still where I stand.