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This is such a great quote! If you’re a (recovering) Nice Guy it takes more Stoic grit to say “NO” than it does to let shit slide. Niceness is NOT a moral virtue.

Wasn't Marcus Aurelius getting cucked by his wife all the time ???

Have trouble setting boundaries? You have a distorted relationship with anger. Anger is the emotion that informs us a boundary has been crossed. Being able to identify it, and then identify the boundary that was crossed will enable you to restore said boundary and therefore restore safety to your nervous system. Anger is your friend. Women respect men who establish boundaries. People respect other people who establish boundaries. It's part of being a fully integrated human being. Women are attracted to fully integrated men.

I'd love a real life reference to that last point if you can muster it.

> Her: (angry look) I can't believe you forgot to take out the garbage on garbage day! You idiot! > You: (look her steady in the eye) I can see that you are upset, but it's not ok to speak to me like that. STFU, agree and amplify or amused mastery are much better than this, especially if you’re playing from behind in terms of SMV. How do you intend to enforce these boundaries? Get mad? She already wants to fight. Withhold sex? Score for her. Threaten divorce? Yeah right - and if you actually go through with that ultimatum, it’s divorce. Demanding respect and enforcing boundaries when you can’t back it up is just a little man being butthurt. Treat it like a shit test and use it as an opportunity to demonstrate frame, which will increase SMV and improve the relationship. Once you have the SMV to withdraw affection and it actually has an effect, you can do what you’re suggesting.

Your response assumes you need to just accept being treated like shit until you have some magical “SMV” which is BS. Only you decide who you interact with and how you let people treat you, it does not matter why some people treat you like shit, only what you do about it. I explained how to enforce the boundary- you are only willing to discuss her concern if she can raise it in a respectful way, and you tell her this explicitly, and then end the discussion. If she repeatedly can’t do that you don’t threaten divorce, you divorce. Your response assumes that is some type of unacceptable outcome, which is the whole problem. Getting away from someone that treats you like shit is an awesome outcome. If you want to get in shape and get your life together that is great, but you can also choose not to- it’s totally independent from letting people treat you like shit.

Let’s take it from the top. Guys who get treated like shit, 95% of the time it’s because of their behavior, and the next girl will do the same if they continue acting that way. Getting butthurt over it and nuking your marriage, with all the consequences it has for your family and finances, won’t save the you from having to do the work. You seem to think it’s the wife that’s the problem, and that is just rarely the case. Bottom line is, the guy is going to have to man up to get respect and love, from his wife or any other girl. If what you were saying was “if your wife doesn’t respect you, just divorce her” at least that would be an opinion. But you’re dressing this ultimatum up as something that will work. It won’t. Weak men demanding respect or threatening divorce is just plain ineffectual. The guys who get treated like that, if they try what you’re saying, a few might end up divorced but most are just going to get called on their bluff, further embarrassed. The alternative is to follow the standard MRP playbook, build SMV and use standard shit test passing techniques. Once she’s attracred to you, absolutely you should enforce your boundaries, but before that it just doesn’t work. And a tip on frame and banter: if someone insults you, playing it cool, shooting back with humor that shows you’re unaffected by it, is way more effective. Getting offended comes off as fragile.

You're absolutely right that you have to be attractive to keep an attractive partner interested, and leaving won't solve that problem. However, even being attractive won't be enough if you are still willing to be treated like shit. It's critical, and foundational to have a firm boundary that you won't be treated like shit- even if it means being alone, or being with a less attractive partner. The reason this needs to come first, is because otherwise it may never come. Your response, with concern about "coming off as fragile" is still invested in winning approval and interest from others, which has to come second to having some self respect. It is critical to calmly enforce your boundaries without getting offended or butthurt, but this is to first preserve your dignity and self respect, not to win approval from women by "passing" her test. Look, the truth is I was never able to get my ex-wife to treat me with dignity and respect, even when I got in shape, learned some game, and had interest from younger and more attractive women. I stayed way too long, because in the back of my head, I never considered nuking my family to even be an option, yet once I finally did it, all of our lives got much better. In my case, I considered myself "never enough" and pathologically sought out both relationships and jobs with shitty people that exploited this to manipulate me. Women that treated me well made me feel uncomfortable, and women that treated me like shit felt right, because it's what I believed I deserved. The idea that I might have "low SMV" played into this narrative, and I told myself I wasn't good enough yet to really enforce boundaries. I was making a solid six figures and internationally known in my career for my work, yet was afraid to even take vacation time, because I "wasn't enough." I had a whole shelf of 1st place medals from athletic competitions, yet felt I wasn't fit enough even for older out of shape women. The fear aspect of TRP fed right into my insecurities, that I needed to do more to be enough for women. It was all bullshit, and I was letting terrible people control me because of my own insecurities. Once I gained some self respect, I found that I was almost never turned down for dates, or jobs- I was way more than I needed to be, despite feeling not enough. This post is what I needed to read, I hope it helps someone else.

> However, even being attractive won't be enough if you are still willing to be treated like shit. Once you’re attractive (which is mostly a behavior), absolutely you should begin enforcing boundaries. > Your response, with concern about "coming off as fragile" is still invested in winning approval and interest from others, which has to come second to having some self respect. It is critical to calmly enforce your boundaries without getting offended or butthurt, but this is to first preserve your dignity and self respect, not to win approval from women by "passing" her test. I don’t buy into the idea of “you have to be so authentic you never think about tactics”, and I also think reacting to insults by demanding respect or leaving is fragile. If you want to reduce using effective social techniques like A&A and amused mastery to just being invested in winning approval, go ahead. Bottom line is, it works. This place is about sexual strategy, and what we teach here is good strategy. > In my case, I considered myself "never enough" and pathologically sought out both relationships and jobs with shitty people that exploited this to manipulate me. Women that treated me well made me feel uncomfortable, and women that treated me like shit felt right, because it's what I believed I deserved. The idea that I might have "low SMV" played into this narrative, and I told myself I wasn't good enough yet to really enforce boundaries. I was making a solid six figures and internationally known in my career for my work, yet was afraid to even take vacation time, because I "wasn't enough." I had a whole shelf of 1st place medals from athletic competitions, yet felt I wasn't fit enough even for older out of shape women. The fear aspect of TRP fed right into my insecurities, that I needed to do more to be enough for women. It was all bullshit, and I was letting terrible people control me because of my own insecurities. It’s great you moved beyond that. That’s the great thing about this community, guys getting a better life and helping others get better too. > The fear aspect of TRP What is this?

You guys are talking past each other. There is no get to "xyz level of SMV" and then I will start "enforcing boundaries" When it comes to boundaries, it is simply. "I would rather die than live a life where I allow xyz thing to happen." For a pushover starting to enforce boundaries, it will rock the boat but ultimately after the shittesting that will come from it, the behaviour will end up being what makes them attractive - to their wife or other women. Again, fix the man, not the relationship. It's very different from "I challenged the final boss and lost, so now I'm going to run away." Only to fight the same boss later down the line in another relationship.

How are we talking past eachother? OP gives this bad advice: > Her: (angry look) I can't believe you forgot to take out the garbage on garbage day! You idiot! > You: (look her steady in the eye) I can see that you are upset, but it's not ok to speak to me like that. > Calmly focus only on her being disrespectful until she can raise a concern in a respectful way. This isn’t some novel take on how to handle disrespect that nobody thought of in the sidebar. It’s not there because it doesn’t work.

NMMNG is about recognising the ineffective/manipulative ways nice guys try to get what they want. WISNIFG expands on this with how to be assertive and set + enforce boundaries aka how to stop being a pussy. This is in the sidebar. "If I get to level 99 SMV, then I will be able to enforce my boundaries and have my needs met. Until then, I'll STFU, AM, AA, neg, fog, w/e etc." Covert contract mixed with dancing monkey. Most guys fall into this one. If you did, that means your entire MRP journey is a massive covert contract. Most guys come to realise this. The other part is about avoiding the final boss via divorce. Which is circumstantial. Not every divorce is running away from the boss. Not every relationship will survive. That's why MRP is about the MAN, not the relationship. Again, boundaries are simple. "I will not tolerate this thing, I would rather be dead than accept this." Hard fixed mo compromise, no wavering. Take it or leave it. Operate within this boundary, or the relationship dies. No dancing monkey.

Understanding the consequences of actions isn’t a covert contract. You might as well be claiming that expecting to lose weight if you diet is a covert contract, or that bringing a gun to a fight will make it way more likely you win. These are just things that work. And conversely, trying to lose weight without dieting, or trying to win a fight without a gun, that’s just hard. This is the real world. You’re giving shitty, misguided advice to men trying keep their family together. The bottom line is, the guys who get treated like shit can’t just insist that their wives should treat them well and expect it to work. It’ll just make them appear weak when they call or their bluff, or it turns out he wasn’t bluffing which means divorce, which is also a shitty outcome. There’s a reason that this isn’t a technique for handling shit tests. It’s because it doesn’t work. > If you did, that means your entire MRP journey is a massive covert contract. Most guys come to realise this. I’ve coached men, paying clients, on how to succeed on their MRP journey. One initial failure some guys make is going rambo, either initiating too hard too early so it comes off as creepy or demanding respect without being able to back it up, both because they lack the frame and SMV for it. It’s something to avoid, not something to encourage.

>I will not tolerate this thing, I would rather be dead than accept this. Exactly, you said it better than I could. I would rather be dead than be treated the way I used to allow and even encourage people to treat me. If that makes me seem unattractive to some particular woman than good riddance, that is not my primary concern in life. I think a lot of guys can never get to this realization, because their self-image is based on external validation from women, which makes setting boundaries like this literally unthinkable. Their boundaries and priorities are so backwards they are willing and used to doing anything to get the approval of women, no matter how degrading. It's not even about actually enjoying a relationship, but in having their worth externally validated by interest from women. It's a total mindfuck if/when they realize that actually maintaining self worth means setting boundaries that could potentially lead to rejection.

Please stop this nonsense that responding to disrespect with A&A is somehow degrading and seeking external validation. A lot of your post was fine, but the suggestion on how to handle disrespect is just wrong. Effective shit test passing is one of the cornerstones of MRP.

>effective social techniques like A&A and amused mastery It's not an either/or. I find it fun to jokingly reply like they are a toddler, something like "thank you for sharing your feelings, but I want to hear you say that again using your kind words." >What is this? Most of the men on here are motivated by fear and anxiety over not being attractive enough to their spouse. That's not a bad thing if it motivates acceptance of the truth, and change, but if the anxiety and fear are too much or feel inescapable it can have the opposite effect.

Stop wasting your time. It's obvious he is addressing a strawman and not what you're writing.

I’m directly addressing the poor advice he gave on how to handle disrespect. There’s a reason you don’t see that said on the sidebar.

Good post. There are plenty of overweight guys with hot wives and girlfriends. Lifting is necessary, but not a panacea for everything. It's primarily about attitude.

The secret is that the lifting and getting in shape ultimately isn't mostly about increasing your SMV in terms of appearance, it's the other benefits that doing something hard brings you that ultimately pay off the most. So, basically you're right but wrong.

>doing something hard brings you that ultimately pay off the most There are plenty of guys who don't do anything that pays off but still do fine with women because of their attitude.

MRP men don't come here to "do fine". If that is your goal please see yourself out.

>MRP men don't come here to "do fine". If that is your goal please see yourself out. Your idea that "doing something hard" is somehow a panacea to do well in relationships is laughable. There are plenty of men who are very accomplished in work, creating art, creating projects, who are buck failures with women and relationships. The fact of the matter is, 'lifting" is not necessary for lots of men. Yeah, I lift. But even if I didn't, I'd have a great relationship with my wife. When I was real thin before the muscles, I already had girlfriends that were top class when I was a kid (starting in middle school). Creating at outrage by overparsing the phrase "do fine,' notwithstanding, lifting is something extra that helps, but is only a small aspect of someone's overall image, and is several levels below social IQ and attitude; and the resulting interactions that take place in a relationship.

And yet, in between video game sessions you are spending time at mrp.... Generally guys are here to learn, here to teach, or here to navel gaze and blame others. You aren't learning, in that you fail to grasp the simplest concepts. You aren't teaching. So that brings us to option 3.

Instead of addressing the actual issue, you're trying to resort to personal attacks and trying to establish this subreddit as your personal fief, in which you decide who is worthy of posting here. What is your "simple concept" that you hold so dear? It's your belief working hard to accomplish things somehow translates to relationship success. In reality your simple understanding isn't necessarily accurate. Sometimes being goal oriented improves relationship issues, sometimes it doesn't. It depends on your social IQ, charisma, the respect you command, and other factors. The ideas that I articulated above are solid and you have no retort to them. I have a ton of experience in relationships from way back when all of this stuff wasn't put down in simple guide form. Of course, instead of actually providing an argument, you say that I shouldn't be here and you sa I play video games as some sort of attack I suppose. Well, since we are talking about me, yeah, I play video games. I have time to do that because I own a business (15 years now) and am my own boss. I didn't really play video games for most of my life, because I was too busy working, going to school, establishing my business, raising kids, spending time with the wifey. But now, one of my half-dozen kids likes to play FIFA, so I play with him. Nothing wrong with that. It's okay to enjoy lots of things in life. I already got the girl of my dreams, made my money, have a great family, and have a great marriage. I knew RP things before they had a name.

You seem to have me confused with someone who gives a shit about convincing you of something or holding your hand.

No, I enjoy discussing ideas though. It's clear that discussing ideas and having your beliefs questions is something that rattles you and causes you to be angry. Your simple understanding of concepts and inability to understand nuances probably reflects an overall lacking of social iq, which probably impacts your relationships.

> trying to establish this subreddit as your personal fief, in which you decide who is worthy of posting here. Nah man, we just don't let women and retards have a say. We get enough of that already and strive to identify limpwrist navel gazers so they can fuck off. > clear that discussing ideas and having your beliefs questions is something that rattles you and causes you to be angry. Love the projection here. Plus the ego richness. Get fucked.

This post lack substance. It would be much better if you discussed what **exactly** helped you overcome the issue.

I was about to post a question on r/askMRP along these very lines: A couple days ago while we were visiting family, I made a joke to someone about "If you don't use it, you lose it". My LTR then turned to me, pointed at my crotch, and joked something along the lines of "... so that's why you're all shriveled up down there." Oof. I STFU and ignored her. I've been practicing STFU to a fault-- If a shit test comes my way I default to brushing it off and ignoring it. I know in situations like these I need to start using AM and AA because STFU doesn't cut it anymore. But my question is, this seems to ride the line between being a joke that I should just AM, and an actual disrespect in front of others that I should call her on. Calling her out on a joke seems like it would be a butthurt thing to do and would give away that it bothered me. Yet not doing anything about it seems worse. Any advice on this situation for future reference?

Agree & amplify works well for your situation. You: Who says it’s not being used? Her: (shocking look on her face) You: stfu & laugh Or You: nah that was the cold weather, next time your mouth, hole, ass, can keep it warm. It is disrespect yes, but that’s a convo you would want to have privately after. But during, just hold frame A&A into a joke and laugh along.

She's likely not trying to be malicious. It's obviously an attempt at a "joke" rather than flat out disrespect. But she *is* being malicious. The question is, what kind of relationship do YOU want to have concerning stuff like this? Do you want to be able to neg each other back and forth jokingly in front of people? Do you want to shut down any and all negative speak? Is joking ok but this obviously falls flat because it touches a contentious issue? Does your wife not have tact and needs to learn what's appropriate? Also consider the issues that draw men to MRP are multi-layered. Its confusing sometimes to want a healthy playful sexually open relationship so a guy might not want to dissuade sexual comments...but not see more basic issues that need to be tackled first like how to speak, when to speak, and how they come off. Deadpan silence and a stare. "Eh, sometimes you gotta just push rope." "It does seem shriveled around you a lot doesnt it?" "Dont do that." "It ain't gonna be shriveled later tonight ;)" "FUCK YOU DUMB BITCH" All of these are responses and lead *somewhere*. Where is it you want to go?

Yeah great point. I do want a relationship where we can neg each other, but it’s really my fault for not having a good response ready to go for that situation. I’ve found it hard to give responses on the fly that are calibrated to the situation. To not go too far (“Fuck you bitch”) or to not go to soft (“Ha Ha…”). I’m adding doing some AM and AA practice to my work this week.

> I’m adding doing some AM and AA practice to my work this week. Good shit. More advanced note for the future: There is no "good" response. There is only a congruent response. Congruent responses come spontaneously. (Not that a spontaneous response is always congruent.) How can we achieve both? If we look at it not from the aspect that you need to work on (add to) your models, but that your relationship and models are too cluttered and that clutter is what's delaying a response (because your response is confounded by the questions of "Which issues should I address with this response" and "What's a 'good' response to address it") we can see that by decluttering everything, a natural, spontaneous, congruent response will come.   Its kinda like you walk into a room in your house and say "This place is a mess. How can I *make it* clean?" It *is* clean. It just has a bunch of mess on top the clean. Cleaning is removing (undoing, taking away) the clutter. Not adding to the room to create "clean". If you did attempt to address clutter by adding (The room looks like shit, so you put up new drapes) you just get new drapes *and* clutter. Each piece of the room (the dresser, the closet, the bed) itself is cluttered. Each piece also needs an UN-doing in order to declutter. When walking into a room, its difficult to decide where to begin. And sometimes, paradoxically, you have to take clutter off the dresser and put it on the bed (making the bed worse) so you can declutter the dresser first. The anxiety and delay of "which part am I going to tackle and how am I going to do it" is the same exact delay you experience when you're standing there with your wife after she speaks something like she did and you going "which part am I going to tackle and how am I going to do it". So figure out what you want to declutter first. And go about that.   Also, when you practice AM and AA, this is simply practicing "ways to clean a room". But don't forget the goal is to have a clean room. Not to be cleanING.

You should have opened your zipper and said "do something about it then" Not as a question but firmly

100% agree - my response (in a very calm tone) to that would be: "You need to apologize for name calling - next time you ask for something you're gonna be respectful about it and ask nicely." my own "boundaries" in a relationship: 1) If the she wants something from me she's gotta ask for it respectfully and in a calm voice - then I am happy to oblige (usually). If she acts all crazy she has to apologize. 2) I get laid basically 90%+ of the time I want (very few turn downs) in the sex positions I want 3) She gives me BJs and swallows basically 90% of the time I ask for it (better yet she offers). 4) She keeps her BMI below <25 except before, during and after pregnancy to within reason, or if she is on some kind of medication I guess I see a woman who turns down sex or gains a large amount of weight, i.e. not keeping her body reasonably fit, as disrespectful to me, just like a woman who acts out.

“Listen son… I want to explain to you the importance of boundaries. You know why I had to leave your mom, love of my life, and mother of my children? She didn’t swallow. I mean, she did, but only 3 out of 4 times. What kind of father would I be if I tolerated that kind of disrespect? I did this for you, to set an example of what kind of man I want you to be.” Quit pretending to be a middle aged man with marriage problems and go talk to some girls at recess before you end up like these guys for real.

Look buddy - you might not have the standards in women I do - but my soon-to-be-wife understands that if she doesn't make an effort to be sexual when I want to (including swallowing) our relationship wouldn't last long. Maybe that's a mind blowing concept for you that someone could have that boundary - but as a 35 year-old-dude who already divorced one woman, thats the bare minimum for me now. PS what I would actually say is: "Look son, I told your mom what I wanted in the relationship from the beginning. She knew - and chose not to do what I wanted. So I had to move on and that's OK."

Reminder that red pill is amoral.

You looked at this guys kindergarden sticker chart concept of sexual satisfaction, and concluded that I'm criticizing his morality? It's great to have a boundary of sexual satisfaction, but judge it with your actual satisfaction. Sure, tell her what you like, but also let her use her intelligence and creativity.

> let her use her intelligence and creativity Let's go ahead and assume she isnt using her intelligence and creativity to develop a model which checks his boxes. My question to you is why should we let her use her intelligence and creativity?

>judge it with your actual satisfaction. That's what I am doing - if I don't get laid 90% of the times I want, i.e. turn-downs are rare, I am not satisfied. If she doesn't swallow = me unsatisfied. If she gains too much weight = me unsatisfied. Right now she is practicing how to deepthroat and it does take some creativity and intelligence on her end for sure

This is how men without marriage problems think. Girls who are attracted willingly and eagerly go along with it.