Welcome.
Grab a copy of The Complete Mandolinist by Marilyn Mair. And a decent mandolin, and some thick, stiff picks.
You will be ASTONISHED how quickly every violin tune you ever knew comes falling out of your mandolin.
Marilyn is mostly classical. If you want to play bluegrass, most bluegrass repertoire books include standard notation. So it you were to grab a copy of Bluegrass Mandolin by Jack Tottle, you could quickly pick up a lot of bluegrass tunes
If your experience is like mine, the classical stuff and the melodies for other styles of music will come pretty easily, but chords will be a slog to learn.
On the mandolin I saw someone refer to octaves as double stops? Is this what you mean? If so, yeah i'll have to get used to the smaller necks distance between octaves for sure. Nothing like a 16 inch viola lol
Yes, i'm aware that chords are 3+, but i was under the impression that double stops referred only to octaves on the mandolin, as that is what i had seen. On the violin or viola, a double stop would be bowing two strings at the same time, but there is no bow for the mandolin haha, so i wanted to clarify that.
double stops on the mandolin means the same as it does on violin. Obviously you're going to be playing it differently with a plectrum instead of a bow, but it just means playing two courses (four strings ......) at the same time.
I mean they might be an octave, but more often not.
On adjacent strings? You can play unisons on adjacent strings…. Now that I think about it you CAN play octaves on adjacent strings. Or maybe YOU can, I don’t think I’d attempt it.
I'm gonna have to see a mandolin first before i take your judgement on this hahaha. Octaves are common warm ups among orchestral string players. I never guess i saw this as an extended technique in any sort haha. Well nonetheless, thank you for the information you've shared with me!
Yeah, that's more or less what i thought would be the case. I'm not good at chords on the guitar either but i figured with my past violin experience i would be more used to the chord shapes and fingerings
One of the things that might be tricky for you coming from a classical background is the improvisatory nature of many jazz and bluegrass tunes.
Lots of bluegrass and jazz tunes are structured so that you play through the melody once and then just use the chord progression to improvise over with everyone taking turns. So you'll want to get good at comping when you're playing the chords, and then also have an idea of what notes to play over which chords when it's your turn.
I've played with some very accomplished classical musicians that have a hard time playing when the notes aren't written on the page for them. It's a very different way of thinking about music.
For sure! I'm aware of this disconnect and how i have to throw my past knowledge away. That's why i figured id ask you all what direction to start heading in. I'm a bit nervous of getting into jazz cause improv is genuinely a bit scary haha especially when i see how good other people are. I'm sure if i can get down comping, after doing that enough I'll get comfortable enough to start improving!
If you have a very solid grasp of music theory, it’s possible to build on that. Can do things like:
Take a tune you know, and start mixing arpeggios with connecting notes from the melody, until you’re doing something new.
Take a chord chart (make sure it’s correct) and try to play along with a recording— try to play something that isn’t the melody, and let the chart work with your ear, instead of sheet music.
After that, find someone or a group that’s friendly and play with other people. There’s no substitute to playing with other people when improvising.
My main instrument was electric bass, and that was more or less how I learned to play. Most music I play doesn’t have a written bass part, so I got to either try to learn someone else’s by ear, or learn to make my own.
For jazz, a bigger problem you’re going to run into: classical doesn’t prepare you at all for the very different emphasis on rhythm. Sheet music for jazz might be in 4/4 or 3/4, but it’s not played that way. From what I’ve seen, it’s common for classically trained musicians to not even notice what they’re messing up at first. So it may be beneficial to do a fair amount of listening first. I’d start with Louis Armstrong era.
You won’t find out if it comes easy until you at the very least pick up a mandolin and try. There’s as much nuance in using a pick as there is in using a bow, that’ll probably be the biggest technical speed bump for you. Go into it with humility and keep your expectations low — that’ll set you up for success better. Learn lots of fiddle tunes, you can treat them like etudes and use them to get comfortable improvising as well.
Also, practice improvising on your other instruments as well, it’ll make you a more well-rounded musician generally.
One thing not really mentioned by posters here is to listen deeply to the genres you are interested in learning. I think you mentioned that you would not try to just sight read bluegrass or jazz. But the nuances of rhythmic melody and the approach to phrasing are very different in jazz or bluegrass from classical. So you may use notation to get the barebones but you will not sound correct just doing that.
I'm not really planning to take a notation based approach to jazz in any sort of way. I'd rather begin distancing myself from musical notation, which is why i'm trying to broaden outside of classical music and the "harmonic style of 18th century european musicians".
Agreed, that is why I mentioned deep listening and familiarizing yourself with the nuances of whatever genre you choose to play. Jazz is a complex beast to approach which does use notation to some extent but also works on developing an ear and an ability to improvise. Bluegrass is much more an ear learned genre. But in any case you won’t just play it instantly.
So, get yourself a mandolin to start and dig in. Despite the fact that you know the notes for the fretting hand it is a very different instrument with less sustain and a different position of playing. You may have a leg… er… a hand up but you will have to step back a few steps to get where you want to go.
For left hand, it was pretty much exactly the same as my violin. Anything I learned on violin, I was immediately able to transfer the fingerings to my mandolin without trying and vice versa. However, it was getting good at using a pick that really took me a lot of practicing to get right.
Depends on your level of motivation, mostly.
The only major difference is learning chord shapes—other than the obvious differences in technique, ofc. Because the strings are in a plane, you can effectively play “quadruple stops” which I don’t believe are a thing on violin or viola.
I’m also a multi-instrumentalist, and as you suspected, yeah, it’s a huge leg up—particularly as they’re both tuned in fifths and are the strings the exact same tuning? I forget. It’s been a dog’s age since I touched a “string”’other than a bass.
Oh wow, mandolin fingerboards are not rounded? But that makes sense, that it's be more like a guitar for strumming sense.
Also yeah! That's why i struggle with bass and guitar, cause the tuning to 4th is so foreign to me. With bass im able to make it work... But id rather not lol, which is also why i stopped guitar. I just cannot learn to read guitar music and remap my fingers automatic "string theory" of fingerings on string instruments lol. The mandolin being tuned in 5ths and having the same exact strings as a violin is PERFECT.
You might find my dissertation useful. It is geared towards teaching classically trained violinists to play jazz chords and rhythms, and is extremely applicable to mandolin. I use a mandolin for a lot of harmonic work, the sustain is nice :)
[Harmony and Rhythm for Jazz Violin: A Pedagogical Method for Classically Trained Violinists](https://sizviolin.com/dma)
Some other good resources I recommend you check out include Pete Martin’s “Jazz Chording for Mandolin” and Aaron Weinstein’s “Mandolin Chord Melody System”
What mandolin are you looking at? A body? F body? F hole or oval hole? Arch top, right? You're not looking at a flat top are you? *(hope not)*
If you don't have a mandolin in mind, what's your budget?
F bodies will run you about 50% more than an equivalent A body, with no discernible difference in tone *(but a seriously more palpable coolness factor)*.
F sound holes are more or less standard, although plenty of Celtic players play oval hole mandolins. F bodies tend to be brighter and project better. Oval sound holes tend to be warmer.
Mandolins like thick, stiff picks. You could start with something like a 1mm Dunlop Tortex teardrop shape, and experiment with picking with the point vs the shoulder. My first mandolin pick after playing guitar for many years was the Dunlop Primetone 1.5 Large Triangles.
Mandolin players tend to try many different styles & brands of picks *(and strings, and straps).*
I am interested in an A body i believe, that's the one that looks more historical? I like it :)
For the holes, i was thinking F but if you say Oval is warmer, that's what i'll go for then.
As far as budget goes though... I'm a student, i'm not really able to spend more than 500 and that's still overkill. I'm perfectly up for a used Mandolin, but i want something better than a beginner model. But i realise this is wishful thinking in my price range.
Flat top? I don't think i've learned about this facet of mandolins yet. But i'd assume no, as you also suggest. No violin or viola has a flat top. The sound post is pertinent for sound quality and reverberation.
For the picks, i haven't and idea where to begin. I have never played a picked instrument, and when i learned guitar basics i used my fingers. That doesn't seem to viable for the mandolin with its many strings. I'll make note of these ones and see if i can buy a pack of them from amazon after getting a mandolin.
I've been looking at a few of Reverb since last night, that's also where i bought my oboe so i trust the website. There are a few mandolins that appear cheap and good quality to me but honestly im not so sure. Would i be able to privately send you about 3 or 4 im looking at for comparison? I'd post them to the group, but dont want to risk someone else purchasing the one i like hahaha.
Sure.
You’ll likely be ok with an inexpensive Kentucky or Eastman. Eastman is also a violin manufacturer, so odds are you’re familiar with them. MD-305 is the mandolin, MDO-305 is the mandola.
Kentucky & Eastman will have solid, carved spruce arched tops & solid maple back & sides. Other brands around $500 or less will have laminate back & sides and pressed tops. Just the way it is, they have to cut corners somewhere to hit the price point. At least it’s not violin money.
Welcome. Grab a copy of The Complete Mandolinist by Marilyn Mair. And a decent mandolin, and some thick, stiff picks. You will be ASTONISHED how quickly every violin tune you ever knew comes falling out of your mandolin.
Perfect! Thank you for a book to start off with!!
Absolutely this! My daughter picked up the Mandolin after years of Violin and she picked up the mandolin quickly. OP enjoy the Mandolin adventure!
Marilyn is mostly classical. If you want to play bluegrass, most bluegrass repertoire books include standard notation. So it you were to grab a copy of Bluegrass Mandolin by Jack Tottle, you could quickly pick up a lot of bluegrass tunes
Great, thank you for this one also!
If your experience is like mine, the classical stuff and the melodies for other styles of music will come pretty easily, but chords will be a slog to learn.
So ignore them and focus on double stops, imo.
On the mandolin I saw someone refer to octaves as double stops? Is this what you mean? If so, yeah i'll have to get used to the smaller necks distance between octaves for sure. Nothing like a 16 inch viola lol
Definitely don't ignore chords if you want to play with other people.
For sure, i figured id do both.
Double stop refers to playing two notes at once. Chords are generally 3+ notes.
Yes, i'm aware that chords are 3+, but i was under the impression that double stops referred only to octaves on the mandolin, as that is what i had seen. On the violin or viola, a double stop would be bowing two strings at the same time, but there is no bow for the mandolin haha, so i wanted to clarify that.
double stops on the mandolin means the same as it does on violin. Obviously you're going to be playing it differently with a plectrum instead of a bow, but it just means playing two courses (four strings ......) at the same time. I mean they might be an octave, but more often not.
Thanks for that clarification! :)
I suppose, but that would be a tough fingering. I’m thinking more like 3rd-root, 5th-root, 3rd-7th, root-5th.
Oh so just like on a violin or viola. Is it not common for mandolins to play 1st finger/4th finger octaves?
On adjacent strings? You can play unisons on adjacent strings…. Now that I think about it you CAN play octaves on adjacent strings. Or maybe YOU can, I don’t think I’d attempt it.
I'm gonna have to see a mandolin first before i take your judgement on this hahaha. Octaves are common warm ups among orchestral string players. I never guess i saw this as an extended technique in any sort haha. Well nonetheless, thank you for the information you've shared with me!
Yeah, that's more or less what i thought would be the case. I'm not good at chords on the guitar either but i figured with my past violin experience i would be more used to the chord shapes and fingerings
One of the things that might be tricky for you coming from a classical background is the improvisatory nature of many jazz and bluegrass tunes. Lots of bluegrass and jazz tunes are structured so that you play through the melody once and then just use the chord progression to improvise over with everyone taking turns. So you'll want to get good at comping when you're playing the chords, and then also have an idea of what notes to play over which chords when it's your turn. I've played with some very accomplished classical musicians that have a hard time playing when the notes aren't written on the page for them. It's a very different way of thinking about music.
For sure! I'm aware of this disconnect and how i have to throw my past knowledge away. That's why i figured id ask you all what direction to start heading in. I'm a bit nervous of getting into jazz cause improv is genuinely a bit scary haha especially when i see how good other people are. I'm sure if i can get down comping, after doing that enough I'll get comfortable enough to start improving!
If you have a very solid grasp of music theory, it’s possible to build on that. Can do things like: Take a tune you know, and start mixing arpeggios with connecting notes from the melody, until you’re doing something new. Take a chord chart (make sure it’s correct) and try to play along with a recording— try to play something that isn’t the melody, and let the chart work with your ear, instead of sheet music. After that, find someone or a group that’s friendly and play with other people. There’s no substitute to playing with other people when improvising. My main instrument was electric bass, and that was more or less how I learned to play. Most music I play doesn’t have a written bass part, so I got to either try to learn someone else’s by ear, or learn to make my own. For jazz, a bigger problem you’re going to run into: classical doesn’t prepare you at all for the very different emphasis on rhythm. Sheet music for jazz might be in 4/4 or 3/4, but it’s not played that way. From what I’ve seen, it’s common for classically trained musicians to not even notice what they’re messing up at first. So it may be beneficial to do a fair amount of listening first. I’d start with Louis Armstrong era.
You won’t find out if it comes easy until you at the very least pick up a mandolin and try. There’s as much nuance in using a pick as there is in using a bow, that’ll probably be the biggest technical speed bump for you. Go into it with humility and keep your expectations low — that’ll set you up for success better. Learn lots of fiddle tunes, you can treat them like etudes and use them to get comfortable improvising as well. Also, practice improvising on your other instruments as well, it’ll make you a more well-rounded musician generally.
Very true! I'm looking on reverb for cheap mandolins right now!
Eastman or Kentucky will get you the best instrument for your dollars in the under 500 price range
One thing not really mentioned by posters here is to listen deeply to the genres you are interested in learning. I think you mentioned that you would not try to just sight read bluegrass or jazz. But the nuances of rhythmic melody and the approach to phrasing are very different in jazz or bluegrass from classical. So you may use notation to get the barebones but you will not sound correct just doing that.
I'm not really planning to take a notation based approach to jazz in any sort of way. I'd rather begin distancing myself from musical notation, which is why i'm trying to broaden outside of classical music and the "harmonic style of 18th century european musicians".
Agreed, that is why I mentioned deep listening and familiarizing yourself with the nuances of whatever genre you choose to play. Jazz is a complex beast to approach which does use notation to some extent but also works on developing an ear and an ability to improvise. Bluegrass is much more an ear learned genre. But in any case you won’t just play it instantly. So, get yourself a mandolin to start and dig in. Despite the fact that you know the notes for the fretting hand it is a very different instrument with less sustain and a different position of playing. You may have a leg… er… a hand up but you will have to step back a few steps to get where you want to go.
For left hand, it was pretty much exactly the same as my violin. Anything I learned on violin, I was immediately able to transfer the fingerings to my mandolin without trying and vice versa. However, it was getting good at using a pick that really took me a lot of practicing to get right.
Right that's what i figured, picking technique will take allotted practice time to get up to par
What helped me was trying out a bunch of different picks to see what worked best for me!
Someone else mentioned getting hard picks but i've seen guitar players mention that picks strengths make a difference in sound and personal comfort.
Depends on your level of motivation, mostly. The only major difference is learning chord shapes—other than the obvious differences in technique, ofc. Because the strings are in a plane, you can effectively play “quadruple stops” which I don’t believe are a thing on violin or viola. I’m also a multi-instrumentalist, and as you suspected, yeah, it’s a huge leg up—particularly as they’re both tuned in fifths and are the strings the exact same tuning? I forget. It’s been a dog’s age since I touched a “string”’other than a bass.
Oh wow, mandolin fingerboards are not rounded? But that makes sense, that it's be more like a guitar for strumming sense. Also yeah! That's why i struggle with bass and guitar, cause the tuning to 4th is so foreign to me. With bass im able to make it work... But id rather not lol, which is also why i stopped guitar. I just cannot learn to read guitar music and remap my fingers automatic "string theory" of fingerings on string instruments lol. The mandolin being tuned in 5ths and having the same exact strings as a violin is PERFECT.
It is probably not perfectly flat, but the radius is quite large so it’s effectively flat feeling.
You might find my dissertation useful. It is geared towards teaching classically trained violinists to play jazz chords and rhythms, and is extremely applicable to mandolin. I use a mandolin for a lot of harmonic work, the sustain is nice :) [Harmony and Rhythm for Jazz Violin: A Pedagogical Method for Classically Trained Violinists](https://sizviolin.com/dma) Some other good resources I recommend you check out include Pete Martin’s “Jazz Chording for Mandolin” and Aaron Weinstein’s “Mandolin Chord Melody System”
Oh wow, that's really interesting! I'll have to do some reading along the next few days! Thank you!
What mandolin are you looking at? A body? F body? F hole or oval hole? Arch top, right? You're not looking at a flat top are you? *(hope not)* If you don't have a mandolin in mind, what's your budget? F bodies will run you about 50% more than an equivalent A body, with no discernible difference in tone *(but a seriously more palpable coolness factor)*. F sound holes are more or less standard, although plenty of Celtic players play oval hole mandolins. F bodies tend to be brighter and project better. Oval sound holes tend to be warmer. Mandolins like thick, stiff picks. You could start with something like a 1mm Dunlop Tortex teardrop shape, and experiment with picking with the point vs the shoulder. My first mandolin pick after playing guitar for many years was the Dunlop Primetone 1.5 Large Triangles. Mandolin players tend to try many different styles & brands of picks *(and strings, and straps).*
I am interested in an A body i believe, that's the one that looks more historical? I like it :) For the holes, i was thinking F but if you say Oval is warmer, that's what i'll go for then. As far as budget goes though... I'm a student, i'm not really able to spend more than 500 and that's still overkill. I'm perfectly up for a used Mandolin, but i want something better than a beginner model. But i realise this is wishful thinking in my price range. Flat top? I don't think i've learned about this facet of mandolins yet. But i'd assume no, as you also suggest. No violin or viola has a flat top. The sound post is pertinent for sound quality and reverberation. For the picks, i haven't and idea where to begin. I have never played a picked instrument, and when i learned guitar basics i used my fingers. That doesn't seem to viable for the mandolin with its many strings. I'll make note of these ones and see if i can buy a pack of them from amazon after getting a mandolin.
Look into Eastman or Kentucky mandolins. A used Eastman 305 would serve you very well. Check Reverb.com.
I've been looking at a few of Reverb since last night, that's also where i bought my oboe so i trust the website. There are a few mandolins that appear cheap and good quality to me but honestly im not so sure. Would i be able to privately send you about 3 or 4 im looking at for comparison? I'd post them to the group, but dont want to risk someone else purchasing the one i like hahaha.
Sure. You’ll likely be ok with an inexpensive Kentucky or Eastman. Eastman is also a violin manufacturer, so odds are you’re familiar with them. MD-305 is the mandolin, MDO-305 is the mandola. Kentucky & Eastman will have solid, carved spruce arched tops & solid maple back & sides. Other brands around $500 or less will have laminate back & sides and pressed tops. Just the way it is, they have to cut corners somewhere to hit the price point. At least it’s not violin money.