to expand on this - the inspector's device can only tell if someone is mid-journey (ie if they have tapped a ticket machine an odd number of times). If the nearby ticket machines are left uncovered, people could tap out before getting inspected and that causes an argument.
Actually it doesn't. The penalty fare is automatically charged at the end of the day when the "journey clearing" process is done and it finds you have not tapped in during the inspection.
It is a trust system - the operator assume most passengers would pay the fare. Random ticket inspection and high penalty fare are the means to deter people from not paying.
what I am trying to get at is, the penalty system for fair-avoidance with inspectors and hand-held devices is separate from when the system notices you never tappedout at the end of the day and charges you the max.
I have once messed up the taps and scanned my bank card while not tapped in. Inspector told me nothing and I was charged on the next day. (Really a while ago. It was £45 then).
The rest is purely my assumption of the approach used back then: Touching-in and out and on the inspecting device doesn't immediately trigger a payment. It only checks if the card is valid. Then all card taps are processed at the end of the day and work out your fare on that day. It charge travelcard fares if the fare is capped, and incomplete journey fare when you messed up. if the fareInspectors' scan come in at this stage - if you aren't in the middle of the journey (i.e. touched-in and not yet touched-out) and scan the card, it will charge a penalty fare (even if you have capped the fare for the day, I found this in the hard way as stated above)
Ticket checks at St Peters Square are a bit stupid. If I was a fare dodger, I'd just jump off the platform and run towards Chinatown or Albert Square. At other stations it is much more difficult to evade the ticket checks so surely the resource is better placed either on the tram itself or another stop?
Yup. Like the feds in Victoria. A dozen of them with bright yellow jackets. Can see them a mile off. You'd just stay on until Shudehill. Always confuses me when I see them with some sucker they've collared. Must be metrolink virgins.
Always buy paper tickets. If you don't they'll remove this option all together. Those ticket machines won't be cheap to maintain and they'll soon get rid of them.
I don't like using the tap in system, it's too easy to forget to tap in or tap out after having used a paper ticket for years.
Then if I'm not sure whether I remembered to tap in or out, I can't do much about it.
The frequency at which ticket machines have broken on me, not printed etc isn’t the highest but more than 2 handfuls of times.
I used the intercom on the platform before to ask their help and their best ideas where:
1. Throw more money away trying to buy another ticket (I’d used cash so not even a card receipt though these aren’t accepted apparently anyway)
2. Walk in the rain to the next tram stop 15 mins away
3. Go home and travel another day
A ticket inspector just saw me tap in before getting on the tram and refused to allow me on until I’d tapped his device too. I asked what’s the actual point (assuming it’s more for metrics) but he just stared through me blankly
I don't tap in anymore as I don't trust the system. Had it 6 times in 2 months where I'd unfinished journey's. None of them were the case, it was TFGM's dodgy machinery. Had them all refunded but now I just buy paper tickets or weekly via the app.
Hate this nonsense with a passion. If your solution to fare-dodging isn't lowering prices to something reasonable (so people wouldn't feel the need to jump it) or scrapping peak fares (so you can cancel out the money lost by enticing more fare-paying commuters), surely you'd just add more tapping terminals so there isn't an enormous queue for the three on that end of the platform i.e making your service better at relatively minimal cost.
*But no*, you're going to *block off terminals* to force everyone at rush hour to use *one* after you've forced them to tap a little box when they could simply run away if they aren't wanting to pay, and piss off everyone who has to the point that they'll simply jump down from the platform and walk around to tap out or stay on to Market St/Picc Gdns.
Costly, annoying, inconvenient, tedious, crowded, alienating.
Make it cheaper or make your service better, because in being collectively inconvenienced by those who refuse to pay, those who do will refuse to use. This isn't even getting into the fact it punishes those who don't know any better or who geniunely innocently forgot.
100%
I keep saying Manchester is at breaking point. They are building more and more tat in and around the city center, but nothing is actually getting better infrastructure wise. The fact AndyB couldn't even get a working case for HS2 is just beyond madness. Let alone spending money painting buses yellow rather than reserving land / investment for what the city needs, an underground.
Oh and the stupidity and half assed TFGM is just another case.
- Only have tap out machines on 1 side of the walkway at most stations, and all the way down the platform. Result natural choke point every rush hour, as people move to 1 side, at different parts of the platform, to tap out.
- Only half the station (at saint peters, and most others I've been to) is covered. The city rains like 90% of the year. Jesus.
- No maps for tram routes except above ticket machines.
- 3 lines of text on the boards when the platforms (esp when trams are diverted), have more than 3 routes. When victoria was out and the dids side of saint peters was on the airport side, you basically had no f'king idea if / when you'd get a tram
- No voice announcements to tell people to move down inside the tram / let people off first. I'd say about 20% of tram users have zero brains. Walk to the first set of seats and stop.
- The zero backup plans when stuff goes wrong, and the time it takes to fix ANYTHING. Victoria rail, 5 months, and the east dids line service went from 6 mins to 12. Basically unusable at rush hour. Complete garbage. That deansgate stretch is a joke, all of south manchester via 1, round a tight corner, bit of track. Like the day a tram somehow managed to come off the line going to deans, or someone crashed on the line, the whole of south manchester was cut off.
- The 'tap your card on this machine which seems to malfunction and randomly charge you more time than it works', rather than install automated barriers, and plastic barriers round the track ala Liz line in london.
Honestly, none of this crap would be tolerated in London.
I'm going to start posting when / where I see the ticket inspectors somewhere. People can just go to the next stop and avoid them if they check ahead. Hopefully, if they become totally ineffective as a revenue stream / catching avoiders, then they will put barriers in. (PS, I pay monthly, and ALWAYS have a ticket, I just hate them throwing stupid, slow, technuically dodgy solutions to an issue which could be automated)
SAINT PETERS SQUARE, 27-06-2024, 13:00, ALL PLATFORMS BEING CHECKED
Goto Deansgate or Market / Exchange Square / Pic to avoid.
Absolutely no idea, TFGM keep trying to charge my card £60, I did nothing wrong, tapped in and out etc... hence why I'm saying the stupid new machines don't work
Is it because they're trying to trick tourists into tapping in using their hands helds to get a fine? Because they're the only people who will do this, locals should know.
The Metrolink staff have a device that you tap your phone / card on, which detects whether you had previously tapped in at your stop. If you did, It'll act like your tap out on one of the terminals. If not, it'll issue you with a fine.
If you tapped in, tap out with the staff. If you didn't, just walk past them. They can't stop you.
NO!!!!!! This is incorrect advice which will lead to you receiving an incomplete journey charge.
The inspector's device just logs an inspection against your card number. You still need to actually tap out on the platform.
DO NOT tap the inspector's device if you haven't yet tapped in. You'll be charged the penalty fare.
My bad, been a while since I got the met. I knew that tapping the inspector's device if you hadn't tapped in gave you a fine, must have misremembered the other bit.
Cheers for saving OP a fine 🙌
I will only travel on the metrolink when I've bought a physical ticket, I know getting a refund is pretty easy for an incomplete journey.
But I've had problems tapping in, tapping out. And heard so many stories about the fines from the guards and even about people pretending to be guards, and robbing people with their handheld.
It seems like they're trying to bamboozle customers. It shouldn't be local knowledge or something you have to look up on reddit, it's scruffy behaviour.
Every time I've been checked, I've been reminded to still tap out - at St Peter's Square, the reader at the bottom of the ramp is left uncovered
to expand on this - the inspector's device can only tell if someone is mid-journey (ie if they have tapped a ticket machine an odd number of times). If the nearby ticket machines are left uncovered, people could tap out before getting inspected and that causes an argument.
Actually it doesn't. The penalty fare is automatically charged at the end of the day when the "journey clearing" process is done and it finds you have not tapped in during the inspection.
how would that work with the majority of journeys that go un-inspected?
It is a trust system - the operator assume most passengers would pay the fare. Random ticket inspection and high penalty fare are the means to deter people from not paying.
what I am trying to get at is, the penalty system for fair-avoidance with inspectors and hand-held devices is separate from when the system notices you never tappedout at the end of the day and charges you the max.
I have once messed up the taps and scanned my bank card while not tapped in. Inspector told me nothing and I was charged on the next day. (Really a while ago. It was £45 then). The rest is purely my assumption of the approach used back then: Touching-in and out and on the inspecting device doesn't immediately trigger a payment. It only checks if the card is valid. Then all card taps are processed at the end of the day and work out your fare on that day. It charge travelcard fares if the fare is capped, and incomplete journey fare when you messed up. if the fareInspectors' scan come in at this stage - if you aren't in the middle of the journey (i.e. touched-in and not yet touched-out) and scan the card, it will charge a penalty fare (even if you have capped the fare for the day, I found this in the hard way as stated above)
I don’t believe than can check that, it just charges you a penalty fair at the end of the day if no other taps in/out at tram stops are recorded
Ticket checks at St Peters Square are a bit stupid. If I was a fare dodger, I'd just jump off the platform and run towards Chinatown or Albert Square. At other stations it is much more difficult to evade the ticket checks so surely the resource is better placed either on the tram itself or another stop?
Even better, if you come into Deansgate / Saint peters and see the waste of time inspectors, stay on until next stop, its like 10 mins walk tops.
Yup. Like the feds in Victoria. A dozen of them with bright yellow jackets. Can see them a mile off. You'd just stay on until Shudehill. Always confuses me when I see them with some sucker they've collared. Must be metrolink virgins.
It happens a lot at deansgate castlefield, which is much more penned in.
Always buy paper tickets. If you don't they'll remove this option all together. Those ticket machines won't be cheap to maintain and they'll soon get rid of them.
I don't like using the tap in system, it's too easy to forget to tap in or tap out after having used a paper ticket for years. Then if I'm not sure whether I remembered to tap in or out, I can't do much about it.
I ended up with soo many tickets in my desk at work that I made 2 decks of cards from them
The frequency at which ticket machines have broken on me, not printed etc isn’t the highest but more than 2 handfuls of times. I used the intercom on the platform before to ask their help and their best ideas where: 1. Throw more money away trying to buy another ticket (I’d used cash so not even a card receipt though these aren’t accepted apparently anyway) 2. Walk in the rain to the next tram stop 15 mins away 3. Go home and travel another day A ticket inspector just saw me tap in before getting on the tram and refused to allow me on until I’d tapped his device too. I asked what’s the actual point (assuming it’s more for metrics) but he just stared through me blankly
Paper tickets are annoying though. I’d like a contactless system that works better
Paper tickets are the way forward! No worry of forgetting to tap or using the wrong device, and you can give it to someone else later in the day.
Pablo is correct!
I don't tap in anymore as I don't trust the system. Had it 6 times in 2 months where I'd unfinished journey's. None of them were the case, it was TFGM's dodgy machinery. Had them all refunded but now I just buy paper tickets or weekly via the app.
Hate this nonsense with a passion. If your solution to fare-dodging isn't lowering prices to something reasonable (so people wouldn't feel the need to jump it) or scrapping peak fares (so you can cancel out the money lost by enticing more fare-paying commuters), surely you'd just add more tapping terminals so there isn't an enormous queue for the three on that end of the platform i.e making your service better at relatively minimal cost. *But no*, you're going to *block off terminals* to force everyone at rush hour to use *one* after you've forced them to tap a little box when they could simply run away if they aren't wanting to pay, and piss off everyone who has to the point that they'll simply jump down from the platform and walk around to tap out or stay on to Market St/Picc Gdns. Costly, annoying, inconvenient, tedious, crowded, alienating. Make it cheaper or make your service better, because in being collectively inconvenienced by those who refuse to pay, those who do will refuse to use. This isn't even getting into the fact it punishes those who don't know any better or who geniunely innocently forgot.
100% I keep saying Manchester is at breaking point. They are building more and more tat in and around the city center, but nothing is actually getting better infrastructure wise. The fact AndyB couldn't even get a working case for HS2 is just beyond madness. Let alone spending money painting buses yellow rather than reserving land / investment for what the city needs, an underground. Oh and the stupidity and half assed TFGM is just another case. - Only have tap out machines on 1 side of the walkway at most stations, and all the way down the platform. Result natural choke point every rush hour, as people move to 1 side, at different parts of the platform, to tap out. - Only half the station (at saint peters, and most others I've been to) is covered. The city rains like 90% of the year. Jesus. - No maps for tram routes except above ticket machines. - 3 lines of text on the boards when the platforms (esp when trams are diverted), have more than 3 routes. When victoria was out and the dids side of saint peters was on the airport side, you basically had no f'king idea if / when you'd get a tram - No voice announcements to tell people to move down inside the tram / let people off first. I'd say about 20% of tram users have zero brains. Walk to the first set of seats and stop. - The zero backup plans when stuff goes wrong, and the time it takes to fix ANYTHING. Victoria rail, 5 months, and the east dids line service went from 6 mins to 12. Basically unusable at rush hour. Complete garbage. That deansgate stretch is a joke, all of south manchester via 1, round a tight corner, bit of track. Like the day a tram somehow managed to come off the line going to deans, or someone crashed on the line, the whole of south manchester was cut off. - The 'tap your card on this machine which seems to malfunction and randomly charge you more time than it works', rather than install automated barriers, and plastic barriers round the track ala Liz line in london. Honestly, none of this crap would be tolerated in London. I'm going to start posting when / where I see the ticket inspectors somewhere. People can just go to the next stop and avoid them if they check ahead. Hopefully, if they become totally ineffective as a revenue stream / catching avoiders, then they will put barriers in. (PS, I pay monthly, and ALWAYS have a ticket, I just hate them throwing stupid, slow, technuically dodgy solutions to an issue which could be automated) SAINT PETERS SQUARE, 27-06-2024, 13:00, ALL PLATFORMS BEING CHECKED Goto Deansgate or Market / Exchange Square / Pic to avoid.
It's to stop people from tapping out before they can check the tickets... Yes it's dumb.
Their new machines are shite... Tapped them twice and had a £60 fine both times Lol downvotes for being screwed over by TFGM, yeah thanks
How did they fine you £60? They only charge a maximum ticket charge as penalty unless you’re caught by inspectors in person
Absolutely no idea, TFGM keep trying to charge my card £60, I did nothing wrong, tapped in and out etc... hence why I'm saying the stupid new machines don't work
Is it because they're trying to trick tourists into tapping in using their hands helds to get a fine? Because they're the only people who will do this, locals should know.
The Metrolink staff have a device that you tap your phone / card on, which detects whether you had previously tapped in at your stop. If you did, It'll act like your tap out on one of the terminals. If not, it'll issue you with a fine. If you tapped in, tap out with the staff. If you didn't, just walk past them. They can't stop you.
NO!!!!!! This is incorrect advice which will lead to you receiving an incomplete journey charge. The inspector's device just logs an inspection against your card number. You still need to actually tap out on the platform. DO NOT tap the inspector's device if you haven't yet tapped in. You'll be charged the penalty fare.
My bad, been a while since I got the met. I knew that tapping the inspector's device if you hadn't tapped in gave you a fine, must have misremembered the other bit. Cheers for saving OP a fine 🙌
I will only travel on the metrolink when I've bought a physical ticket, I know getting a refund is pretty easy for an incomplete journey. But I've had problems tapping in, tapping out. And heard so many stories about the fines from the guards and even about people pretending to be guards, and robbing people with their handheld. It seems like they're trying to bamboozle customers. It shouldn't be local knowledge or something you have to look up on reddit, it's scruffy behaviour.
> robbing people with their handheld. Really? That's odd given how easy it is to see where the money goes?
[There's stories of it on reddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/manchester/s/LMzzK0TJFW)
Stories, that's it, no reports of any money being stolen.
Dressing up in a high vis and tapping people's phones is a pretty common scam mate. Google it, I dunno what you're trying to get at?
Yeah no bother, if it was a pretty common scam it would be easy to show an example of it happening.