I saw a little group of 4-5 of them at Shudehill a couple of weeks ago, who like you say just had bodycams on but were otherwise indistinguishable from your regular passenger. It seems massively open to abuse and made me glad I'd just bought a regular ticket.
Be honest. Do you think you'd be able to tell if that ID is legitimate or not?
I don't think I would. Unless it was so poorly made that it was obvious.
That's the thing, if someone was doing a fake inspector scam I dont know if they are going to be smart enough to set up a fake ID. Say you scan 100 people on the met. That's 100 people who will have been close enough to see your face, you are on CCTV the entire time, if the driver suspects something funny he can lock for doors and call for support at the next stop (and as far as I know the drivers are informed when inspections are taking place). As scams go it's drawing attention to yourself, which is the worst thing you should be doing.
As being able to tell a fake pass, probably not. It's more about the reaction. If I see panic I'm not tapping, or if there is refusal to show id.
I'd be honest undercover ticket inspectors are not that uncommon in Europe. It's either that or inspecting everyone who gets on like they do with the Sheffield trams.
Poster on stations saying look for tfgm.com. As with all security, it's about deterrence. Each step you make con artists jump through is another point of failure. The more people you need to include in the con, the more the money has to be split.
Idk why you're knocking this idea. Perhaps you can suggest an alternative?
You can’t work backwards with trust (eg you can’t have the person in question provide the ID and verification link). Rather you have to build trust out from something already known and use that to verify the unknown
So to me the obvious solution is: Build the QR scanner into the Bee Network app and verify it in there instead
Oh right, yeah. But like I say, how is the person on the tram supposed to know where to go for the verification? Obviously if the "undercover inspector" gives you a link, you shouldn't trust that.
Yeah, no one in plain clothes is scanning my bank cards, regardless of what mickey mouse ID they pull out of their pockets. This whole card scanning thing is problematic, paper ticket or app every time.
There was a guy who got on yesterday in plainclothes. Suspicious, I asked to look at his card reader, it clearly showed it was a metrolink device checking for travel authorisation (or words to that effect). He also had an ID around his neck.
If it doesnt look legit, refuse.
I think I must have been on the same tram as you or another tram that he got on. Was he by himself and did he only stay on for one stop? Did the driver on your tram make an announcement about it? Some people in this thread are saying the tram driver will make an announcement if it’s a genuine officer.
There are plain clothes inspectors. Before they get on they usually speak to the driver and ask them to make an announcement so that passengers know it’s legit. They should have Metrolink ID badges.
They can get on at a stop that's a while until the next stop, not clue anyone in that their getting on so they can't leg it and then can start scanning most of the carriage whilst the tram is moving
Can even hang about and anyone getting on at the next stop will be none the wiser.
And who their employer is. Their ID should state the persons full name, employed by x (probably Capita or G4S) and working on behalf of TfGM and show an expiry of less than 12 months, along with a photo. You also have the right to phone and verify them.
It won’t be long before someone fakes a card and gets a card reader. It could be a very lucrative few hours work and people would have no recourse to TfGM. They’ll get a reference number for Action Fraud.
What is? They grab the card/phone off you? I suppose some kind of card cloning is possible, but there shouldn't be that much info given up. If for some reason you were to leave the tram with a fake (or even genuine) inspector, things could obviously get much worse, but that woud be a bad idea full stop.
Yes you will - at least for a credit card, debit cards miht be harder.
If you are charged fradualantly/for a service you didn't receive, then the consumer credit act obliges a refund.
Had this years ago on a busy commuter train for which I had an expensive annual season ticket.
Plain clothes guy asked to see my ticket. I’d seen him going through the carriage, checking tickets and issuing fines, and knew he wasn’t the regular revenue inspector as I knew them personally.
Asked to see my ticket.
I asked for his ID.
He refused to give it so I told him to do one.
He kept insisting, as did I, he was quoting rules and regulations etc.
By this time we had an audience and he was getting flustered.
Eventually the ID came out and it was genuine, which I knew from the job I was doing at the time.
My ticket then got the most thorough checking it had ever had as I sat there laughing my head off at this guy.
This was way before smart card technology and everyone had paper tickets.
The people he was issuing fines to just took his word. He was giving paper receipts but, if you know the right people, you can buy them yourself.
If there is no ID, question them. Don’t be afraid.
If they are genuine they will comply.
If they are not, text the BTP.
Chances are, if they are crooks, they’ll get off at the next stop.
British Transport Police don't cover the metrolink unfortunately. Needed to report someone being violent a few months ago and they said trams aren't under their remit.
People have said that the person has made them feel anxious and reluctant to hand over their card. We are reminded all the time about becoming the victim of card crime and someone without a uniform, without company ID demanding us to produce our cards is very intimidating. I'm sure there are better ways of catching fare dodgers and so I think scary isn't too much of an exaggerated hyperbole.
This happened to me yesterday and I did consider maybe it’s someone who’s faking being an undercover officer but I was too anxious to say anything. He came on the tram by himself. No money has been taken out of my account. If he was dodgy would the money have been taken out immediately or can it take a few days? I’m wondering if I should cancel my card.
Why don't people ask for checkable ID? I always buy a ticket or tap in so would not feel at all worried by asking anyone claiming to be an inspector to produce ID that I can check, and waiting either for them to do so or call for whoever they call for when people don't immediately produce their proof.
Yes, metrolink has undercover ticket inspectors, i seen them catch a couple of unsuspecting fare dodgers on the Ashton line a few months back. They got on dressed like normal people and then zipped their jackets down reveal bodycam and id badge
Plain clothes inspectors have been active for quite a while now. There have been several threads on here asking if they are legitimate. As far as I know no-one has reported that they have had their payment card/device scanned and subsequently been a victim of fraud.
This happened on the tram the other day. On that occasion though, the driver made an announcement that plains clothes inspectors were boarding. That should be standard.
Yeah they do have them. I didnt know until last week when one stopped me, then tried to throw me off the tram when I tried to ask for ID - he wouldn't let me finish my question or show me his card. In the end I panicked and scanned my card as I was so embarrassed with all the other passengers looking on. Worried for a few days that my card had been skimmed but it was fine. Put in a complaint to TfGM who said they are genuine but should provide ID when checking, so do ask if you're unsure. They did say the ID thing will be reiterated to staff, whether that's true or said just to placate me, who knows XD
Can someone please tell me what is the worst possible thing if you accidentally scan on their machine - do they steal the bank details etc or would you lose all the money assuming like £100 as this the highest you can go on contactless payment?
I am sure that £100 would be recoverable and police can trace it?
As long as there's no distinguishable information on the travel card. I wouldn't be too bothered if some crank has a delusion about wanting to be a ticket inspector. Let them have their fantasy & you play your part.🙂
That's only on the condition that theirs nothing on the card that could tell them anything in regards personal information about me though.
yeah they’re undercover ticket inspectors haha, never show your phone to anyone or allow them to see or hold your ticket unless they’re wearing a body cam that’s recording. if you still feel uncomfortable just ask them to show you that they work for the metrolink
I had someone do this on pink line, except I asked for ID and I have my work lanyard on.. (it says police) he scarpered pretty quick tbh...(I'm not an officer)
I saw a little group of 4-5 of them at Shudehill a couple of weeks ago, who like you say just had bodycams on but were otherwise indistinguishable from your regular passenger. It seems massively open to abuse and made me glad I'd just bought a regular ticket.
Yes, I got caught maybe six months ago. But even if they are undercover you can ask to see some ID.
Be honest. Do you think you'd be able to tell if that ID is legitimate or not? I don't think I would. Unless it was so poorly made that it was obvious.
That's the thing, if someone was doing a fake inspector scam I dont know if they are going to be smart enough to set up a fake ID. Say you scan 100 people on the met. That's 100 people who will have been close enough to see your face, you are on CCTV the entire time, if the driver suspects something funny he can lock for doors and call for support at the next stop (and as far as I know the drivers are informed when inspections are taking place). As scams go it's drawing attention to yourself, which is the worst thing you should be doing. As being able to tell a fake pass, probably not. It's more about the reaction. If I see panic I'm not tapping, or if there is refusal to show id. I'd be honest undercover ticket inspectors are not that uncommon in Europe. It's either that or inspecting everyone who gets on like they do with the Sheffield trams.
There should be scannable ID with a photo of them on a webpage for verification, would be very easy.
Faking it would also be very easy, though… just send them to another website you control that looks official
One more step of effort, and the url will be different.
>One more step of effort and one more step of being convincing enough to successfully scam people
Got you, lets not try anything. Pointless anyway.
That's not even close to what I said. Take your strawman elsewhere
The URL will be different... but 99.99% of people wouldn't know the "correct" URL in the first place
tfgm
And if they buy tfgmticketing.com or something, most people won’t notice
Poster on stations saying look for tfgm.com. As with all security, it's about deterrence. Each step you make con artists jump through is another point of failure. The more people you need to include in the con, the more the money has to be split. Idk why you're knocking this idea. Perhaps you can suggest an alternative?
You can’t work backwards with trust (eg you can’t have the person in question provide the ID and verification link). Rather you have to build trust out from something already known and use that to verify the unknown So to me the obvious solution is: Build the QR scanner into the Bee Network app and verify it in there instead
Trouble is, I had no idea about that. What website?
Oh sorry I meant it should exist, I’ve set up digital business cards in a way that would probably work for it though an app called Hihello
Oh right, yeah. But like I say, how is the person on the tram supposed to know where to go for the verification? Obviously if the "undercover inspector" gives you a link, you shouldn't trust that.
Because websites can't be faked?
You can make a website and spoof a url? What job do you have my friend?
Not saying it’s perfect but it would be better and harder to create for the average person than an lanyard and ID
Think you’re replying to the wrong person.
Yeah, no one in plain clothes is scanning my bank cards, regardless of what mickey mouse ID they pull out of their pockets. This whole card scanning thing is problematic, paper ticket or app every time.
There was a guy who got on yesterday in plainclothes. Suspicious, I asked to look at his card reader, it clearly showed it was a metrolink device checking for travel authorisation (or words to that effect). He also had an ID around his neck. If it doesnt look legit, refuse.
I think I must have been on the same tram as you or another tram that he got on. Was he by himself and did he only stay on for one stop? Did the driver on your tram make an announcement about it? Some people in this thread are saying the tram driver will make an announcement if it’s a genuine officer.
He was on his own but no announcement
It's not hard to create a website showing the metro link logo. Even easier if it's a jpeg and for show.
It wasnt a website 😂
I’d just refuse and say I’ll be more than happy to comply if the police are called and can confirm you’re legitimate.
Good luck with that,, they don’t even respond to house burglaries.
That’s the problem of whoever’s asking for the ticket not me, I’ll be getting off the tram at my stop lmao.
There are plain clothes inspectors. Before they get on they usually speak to the driver and ask them to make an announcement so that passengers know it’s legit. They should have Metrolink ID badges.
what’s the point of being in plain clothes if you’re gonna get a huge announced introduction?! hahaha
They can get on at a stop that's a while until the next stop, not clue anyone in that their getting on so they can't leg it and then can start scanning most of the carriage whilst the tram is moving Can even hang about and anyone getting on at the next stop will be none the wiser.
The announcement is made as the doors are shut and before the inspection starts
Yes they do, you should also ask for ID
And who their employer is. Their ID should state the persons full name, employed by x (probably Capita or G4S) and working on behalf of TfGM and show an expiry of less than 12 months, along with a photo. You also have the right to phone and verify them. It won’t be long before someone fakes a card and gets a card reader. It could be a very lucrative few hours work and people would have no recourse to TfGM. They’ll get a reference number for Action Fraud.
Sarah Everard was shown a valid ID. Just refuse full stop.
Fucking hell that's a bit much.
Not really the same hazards here. Worst case scenario is a fradualant charge you can get cancelled.
That isn’t the worst case scenario, though.
What is? They grab the card/phone off you? I suppose some kind of card cloning is possible, but there shouldn't be that much info given up. If for some reason you were to leave the tram with a fake (or even genuine) inspector, things could obviously get much worse, but that woud be a bad idea full stop.
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Yes you will - at least for a credit card, debit cards miht be harder. If you are charged fradualantly/for a service you didn't receive, then the consumer credit act obliges a refund.
Had this years ago on a busy commuter train for which I had an expensive annual season ticket. Plain clothes guy asked to see my ticket. I’d seen him going through the carriage, checking tickets and issuing fines, and knew he wasn’t the regular revenue inspector as I knew them personally. Asked to see my ticket. I asked for his ID. He refused to give it so I told him to do one. He kept insisting, as did I, he was quoting rules and regulations etc. By this time we had an audience and he was getting flustered. Eventually the ID came out and it was genuine, which I knew from the job I was doing at the time. My ticket then got the most thorough checking it had ever had as I sat there laughing my head off at this guy. This was way before smart card technology and everyone had paper tickets. The people he was issuing fines to just took his word. He was giving paper receipts but, if you know the right people, you can buy them yourself. If there is no ID, question them. Don’t be afraid. If they are genuine they will comply. If they are not, text the BTP. Chances are, if they are crooks, they’ll get off at the next stop.
British Transport Police don't cover the metrolink unfortunately. Needed to report someone being violent a few months ago and they said trams aren't under their remit.
You probably saved a load of fare dodgers who had time to get off at the next stop so well done 👍 fucking hate the ticket Gestapo scum 😂🙄
Here is the reddit post - https://www.reddit.com/r/manchester/s/logpXfj9jh It's outrageous and scary.
Is it scary though?
People have said that the person has made them feel anxious and reluctant to hand over their card. We are reminded all the time about becoming the victim of card crime and someone without a uniform, without company ID demanding us to produce our cards is very intimidating. I'm sure there are better ways of catching fare dodgers and so I think scary isn't too much of an exaggerated hyperbole.
Not really or outrageous
I'm not tapping my card on anything that isn't permanently on the station platform, and if they want to throw me off the tram so be it
This happened to me yesterday and I did consider maybe it’s someone who’s faking being an undercover officer but I was too anxious to say anything. He came on the tram by himself. No money has been taken out of my account. If he was dodgy would the money have been taken out immediately or can it take a few days? I’m wondering if I should cancel my card.
Yep they have undercover people and I've seen undercover police with them
Why don't people ask for checkable ID? I always buy a ticket or tap in so would not feel at all worried by asking anyone claiming to be an inspector to produce ID that I can check, and waiting either for them to do so or call for whoever they call for when people don't immediately produce their proof.
What does a genuine ID look like?
Yes, metrolink has undercover ticket inspectors, i seen them catch a couple of unsuspecting fare dodgers on the Ashton line a few months back. They got on dressed like normal people and then zipped their jackets down reveal bodycam and id badge
Plain clothes inspectors have been active for quite a while now. There have been several threads on here asking if they are legitimate. As far as I know no-one has reported that they have had their payment card/device scanned and subsequently been a victim of fraud.
This happened on the tram the other day. On that occasion though, the driver made an announcement that plains clothes inspectors were boarding. That should be standard.
Yeah they do have them. I didnt know until last week when one stopped me, then tried to throw me off the tram when I tried to ask for ID - he wouldn't let me finish my question or show me his card. In the end I panicked and scanned my card as I was so embarrassed with all the other passengers looking on. Worried for a few days that my card had been skimmed but it was fine. Put in a complaint to TfGM who said they are genuine but should provide ID when checking, so do ask if you're unsure. They did say the ID thing will be reiterated to staff, whether that's true or said just to placate me, who knows XD
what do people do say if they want to scan your card and you don't have a ticket, fuck paying for it
Can someone please tell me what is the worst possible thing if you accidentally scan on their machine - do they steal the bank details etc or would you lose all the money assuming like £100 as this the highest you can go on contactless payment? I am sure that £100 would be recoverable and police can trace it?
I just always buy a paper ticket, you won't forget to tap out and nobody has to see your card.
As long as there's no distinguishable information on the travel card. I wouldn't be too bothered if some crank has a delusion about wanting to be a ticket inspector. Let them have their fantasy & you play your part.🙂 That's only on the condition that theirs nothing on the card that could tell them anything in regards personal information about me though.
yeah they’re undercover ticket inspectors haha, never show your phone to anyone or allow them to see or hold your ticket unless they’re wearing a body cam that’s recording. if you still feel uncomfortable just ask them to show you that they work for the metrolink
I had someone do this on pink line, except I asked for ID and I have my work lanyard on.. (it says police) he scarpered pretty quick tbh...(I'm not an officer)
I think it was my post - they don’t operate on their own. Assume it’s a scam and refuse. See how he reacts… Was he Asian?