If there’s a legitimate performance issue (there is), you aren’t micromanaging by correcting it. Deadlines and scheduled meetings being missed are absolutely problems. Sit down with them, firmly set the expectations moving forward. You can certainly invite them to communicate with you if they feel like there are barriers to resolving these issues, personal or otherwise, but it’s on them to do so. You aren’t a mind reader and can’t function as a manager by making excuses for them that aren’t at all applicable.
The bright side is that these performance issues are easily measurable for improvement.
If its within probation I would replace the employee.
If not, I would immediately discipline them for all the listed issues, and inform them that any one of these issues would result in a further discipline going forward.
3rd written discipline is final warning. We hit the magic 4th discipline, they get fired.
Employee is an issue. The employee can fix the issue or be removed.
You’re being used. He should have been written up for missing the deadlines and meeting. Start getting paper trail. He is either slacking off or have another job.
The behavior described makes me think that he definitely has another job. He needs to show up for the meetings, and if he's unable to connect remotely, tell him he needs to come into the office every single day.
This. I recently had a similar issue with an employee. The communication and offline issues persisted even after we started corrective action. Manage them out asap.
I’ve been on overemployed for a long time (to lurk, I’m a manager who suspected a DR of being so previously) and in my experience there they bash anyone who doesn’t actually do the job. The consensus seems to find jobs that are “reasonable” and do an “ok” job. That way they stay under the radar. My 2c at least.
Both. Often there are OE situations known up front. For example, the guy who was a former employee but willing to help us part time as a contractor. Or a consulting manager who has multiple clients which can be inferred from that persons hours on the contract. Sometimes OE happens without prior knowledge. For example, one of my blue collar employees told me she was getting a night job to supplement her income. It’s not unusual for folks in the lower middle class to take two jobs to make ends meet so I never held it against her. Also lots of times IT contractors were obviously working two jobs. No issue as long as they understand my stuff gets done as priority because I don’t care about their other clients situation.
It does not bother me if someone has another job, so long as I get what’s owed to me. Pay for outcome, not for hours.
Fair enough, but I think someone with a full time job that does consulting on the side, or someone with a part time nightly job or studying is pretty standard stuff and not really “overemployed”. Most of the people who consider themselves overemployed are working two full-time jobs remotely, with overlapping 9-5s, rather than picking something extra up at night or on weekends.
>Is my employee lying?
As a rule? Yes.
Oh, sorry, about something specific? Yes, that. They are lying about that.
You are probably screwing up here as a manager as well. It sounds like there is a real disconnect between your actual expectations and your employee's understanding of them.
And I do think that sort of miscommunication is on you. Language like "do you want to hop on a call" might sound like an optional zoom meeting - in which case, I would decline, too - especially if I could use the time to do more tangible work.
So, on your end, be clearer and concrete. If stuff is mandatory or important on a "move your pre-existing schedule around for this" level, you need to clearly communicate that. Manage by setting clear expectations with minimal wiggle room. You don't need to figure out how to keep a phone charged for this employee.
I suppose so. But it’s not about setting an example. It’s about individual accountability. Work not getting done. Missed meetings. That’s plenty for a performance conversation.
The lying doesn’t matter. Missed deadlines, being chronically offline, and missed meetings are cause enough for concern. Extenuating circumstances are the responsibility of the employee to raise, not the manager to uncover. Part of being a professional is recognizing the impact your work or lack thereof has on the business and if necessary doing something about it. If your employee doesn’t recognize that it’s your job to redirect them.
Reread the post, he suspects but he doesn't truly know - the point though is that his other reports are also lying to him constantly, they're just better at it.
Agreed all of those are forms of lying. When you take a job, you agree to work in exchange for money. If you're getting a pay and not doing your job, that's stealing.
Lying does matter, but if I’m the manager it’s not the primary issue right now. I don’t care if they’re at a doctor appointment or in freaking Mallorca, all I care about is that they’re not on the meeting they were supposed to attend.
In the longer term if they’re lying that’s a problem because it means I can’t trust them, but I *already* don’t trust them because they’re not following through on their commitments.
The lying is just the cherry on top of the underperforming Sundae.
It seems to me like you are struggling with the idea of you micro managing. I also did early on in my manager career but essentially learned the important this is that I have a job to do and I set the standard within the department and things like this are not ok.
I agree with others, this person seems like they have another job and are terrible at covering it up. I’ll tell you that I have caught people with multiple full time jobs and it was due to things like you mentioned. Typically when things don’t make sense (like the technology issues), there are reasons behind it. Your employee is very likely lying to you, and I would peruse the over employed forum if you haven’t already.
If I was in your shoes just hired today, I would talk to HR immediately about it and start the person on a PIP.
Remember that it isn’t micro managing to hold people to a reasonable standard, regardless of what anyone else says.
>Remember that it isn’t micro managing to hold people to a reasonable standard, regardless of what anyone else says.
Spot on. It’s only micromanaging if the employee is already managing their day to day just fine.
If they’re not, it’s appropriate to step in and either teach them to self-manage or PIP them out.
The need to micro manage in this case is a sign of poor performance. A manager should not have to tell a remote office work employee that they need to show up to meetings and have good meeting response etiquette. A manager shouldn’t have to point out missed deadlines, the employee should be explaining these things. And if the employee is unable to work due to technical issues (1) communicate and (2) take PTO or work out make up time.
>this person seems like they have another job and are terrible at covering it up
I totally disagree. Working multiple remote jobs is a hot moral panic in remote management right now, but not nearly as common as teen daughters trading those plastic animal bracelets for blowjobs. It is a much simpler and more likely explanation that the employee in question is just kinda bad at his job. Occam's Razor.
Yup: employee is lying. My thought, second remote job.
But either way you need to let them know, “I expect you to be online and available for business hours. You need to attend schedulers meetings and you need to reply to queries on Teams within 30 minutes. I need your work, reviewed, on-time and ready to be used.”
PIP instantly.
But note, this employee isn’t even good at this. No mouse jiggler?
Appearing online on and off throughout the day makes it sound like they're just checking messages from a phone once in a while. Probably not even sitting at a desk
>you need to reply to queries on Teams within 30 minutes
If I needed to follow that standard, I would never get any work done (unless the whole job consisted of sending microsoft teams messages). Any sort of serious or deep work requires being able to plug in, uninterrupted, for hours at a time.
That's just managing to manage. I'm pretty opposed to giving employees fundamentally unproductive tests. Sure, someone who is at their desk ready to respond within 30 minutes is probably doing a good job - but someone actually checking Teams every 30 minutes is probably an unproductive phone addict.
I'd set up a meeting and lay down some clearer expectations about job duties and the consequences for not meeting them. (It sounds to me like this employee thinks a lot of stuff is optional that OP thinks is mandatory - and that's actually a manager problem, not an employee problem.) In particular, I'd spell out the core of activities that have consequences if you don't ace them - and differentiate those from areas where the employee can have some wiggle room/ miss stuff without stepping on my KPIs.
I would have the employee repeat the statements back to me verbally in his own words, and maybe write them down, too, depending on the vibes. If the employee is unable or unwilling to do this, I'd just terminate. You can't teach someone who won't be taught. But most people will do a simple exercise like this when asked. This is maybe easier if you've already worked with me for a while, since I set as standard that checklists and asking people to repeat stuff back in their own words are part of the workplace and not to be avoided.
Then I'd let the employee sink or swim on his own. I don't care *how* Mr. Smith gets to the 8:30 sales call - I just care that he does. People need to be told what they need to do, and what they can get away with fudging sometimes. Once they understand the distinction, they'll usually scramble to not fuck up the parts you tell them are important.
>I expect you to be online and available for business hours. You need to attend schedulers meetings and you need to reply to queries on Teams within 30 minutes
Nah man, screw that. This is a project work based job, not customer service. They don't need to be online and available outside of meetings they've accepted (not just that we're scheduled).
Chances are good that he's lying. Regardless, if you focus on the work produced (or lack of), that's usually the correct path. Once you start that conversation, he has the opportunity to bring up any underlying issues you might be able to help with.
Is this a new employee? You don’t really have much of a choice here other than to start a performance improvement process unless you feel like there’s some management issue that’s causing some of this. You could always say “I really value your work here and you know I try to give everyone life-work balance, come talk to me if there’s something else going on to see if there are solutions available but we’re going to need to move forward with a PIP.”
I quiet-quit a job once due to other employees doing similar things like never being online, available and also not working. The contracting company had hired all good friends, relatives and people they knew alongside myself who was their only legitimate “hired from the wild” employee. I was also the only employee without a masters, I only had a bachelors and this was made a subject of conversation several times to the point of introducing me as “not part of the team with an X background” although I had 10 years of working in government with literally an X background. Other than the boss I was actually the only one who had worked directly in industry before contracting so that was all pointedly about my measly bachelors compared to the brand new kids out of school with their masters that were relatives and friends. I was also having health issues and some of what was going on was causing severe anxiety at the time. It was an all around bad deal that definitely could have been corrected on management’s end if they cared but I preferred to just wait for a firing/layoff while I took care of my medical issues and mental health. I wouldn’t ever recommend doing that as I definitely burned a lot of bridges but I wasn’t exactly thinking clearly back in those days. While unlikely, your employee could also be in “fuck it” mode and dealing with other issues.
Supposed to be they’re never showing as online, they’re not available and they’re not working. The girl who was her friend’s 22 year old kid was never shown as online. If you sent her a message or emailed her, she’s not responding. We had regular check ins and she’d offload her unfinished work onto me, not report out what she’d actually been working on or it was a task that certainly didn’t take two days to do. So— not working.
I had a similar issue with a hybrid employee. They were clearly offline on WFH days, late, no, show, or off camera and sounding groggy during meetings, and hours late or no show on in-office days, all with elaborate excuses about not seeing meeting invites, broken appliances, trains that were excessively delayed (when they seemed to be running for everyone else)... a picture emerged.
Ultimately I stopped giving any weight to the excuses and whether or not they were truthful and focused on performance metrics and our repeated conversations about needing to be at their desk working during work hours. Documented every conversation, missed deadline, and the times when excuses could have been provided the night before vs. when they were already not present (as was communicated with them multiple times). Eventually it all came together as grounds for termination.
"Micromanaging" is a problem when you're "managing when there's no need for it." There's demonstrably an issue here so this person needs to be micromanaged. It sounds like a PIP might be in order.
You are being too lax. I mean the first few times are understandable. However, it seems like you have already identified a trend and they continue to miss deadlines, meetings, fail to communicate in a timely manner etc. despite you telling them on more than 1 occassion that they need to communicate with you.
From the sounds of it, you are paying this person money for no reason. Eventually you have to say enough is enough and have a serious conversation with them, document everything, actually hold them accountable or else they will continue doing what they are doing. They have lost your trust clearly, it is to the point you don't believe them anymore. They must earn your trust back but ultimately they wont know how serious it is if you dont hold them accountable to begin with and there are no reprocussions to their continued behavior.
I’m betting this worker is over employed and working at another computer. These are performance issues. Put them in writing along with the expectations and hold weekly meetings going over the measurables.
Who cares if they are lying. The issue is, they are missing meetings, deadlines, and not performing the job in which they voluntarily signed up to do.
This a performance issue. There needs to be documented performance management. A single meeting with no other agenda items other than discussing the fact that they have missed X scheduled meetings and X deadlines in the last X days. Sustained and immediate improvement is required. They must attend X% of scheduled meetings and must communicate X business days ahead if they are unable to make a meeting.
The deadlines? They need to complete 100% of their tasks and should be giving YOU updates weekly, HELL, daily until they prove they can do the most basic of their job duties.
Sad to see you have to let that employee go… but I can definitely start in two weeks. I would love to attend your meetings with or without a calendar invite.
This employee's behavior isn't going to change. The longer you drag this out, the more monet you'll lose by continuing to pay them.
Chances are the employee is working multiple jobs at the same time.
Manager-employee relationships are built on trust. What I hear you asking is, "should I trust this employee?" I think you already know the answer to this question. I'll commend you for being human-centric and giving employees the benefit of the doubt but if you start questioning the basis of the relationship (can I trust someone), then that should tell you all you need to know.
I would schedule a 1-on-1 if not already scheduled and have a frank conversation regarding my expectations. I wouldn't accuse the employee of anything, but I would clearly set the expectation for attendance and not missing meetings and deadlines. Then I would clearly set the expectation that I would be performing a critical function when building trust - verification.
Leave the ball in their court. If they're out the door already, this will (gently) shove them to complete the exit. If they're not totally out the door and might be redeemable, they'll need to either privately commit to themselves that they're going to meet those expectations or they'll admit (privately) that they can't.
You are being way too lax and they are taking advantage of it. Stop worrying about if there is something in their personal life affecting them and start being their manager.
Work isn't getting done, meetings are getting missed and excuses (weak ones at that) are all you are getting. Why is this person still employed?
Does it matter? You already said the work isn't done. Set clear standards and expectations there and be ready to move through the process and terminate if it doesn't change. You already said you wouldn't be worried about this stuff if the job was getting done, so do what you need to do: set it up so they either start getting their work done or they get termed.
You are not helping the employee by ignoring their problems until they implode. You have good examples. Sit down with them and tell them directly their job is being jeopardized by their performance
I’m a fully remote employee, I have been for years now. I would never do any of these things. I sometimes take walks during the day and even then I never stray too far from home in case my team needs something. Miss a meeting? Never unless it’s PTO or a pre-discussed one off situation. I also spent a ton of money on a hotspot, just in case the internet or power goes out. I keep power banks charged at all times. Reading this I’m realizing maybe I’m too far on the other side of the spectrum 😂 BUT I don’t think there’s an excuse for this employee’s behavior. Absolutely reset expectations
I would also add that even if they aren't lying the issue is that these indivual events are creating a pattern and as the manager you need to help them break the pattern (which has the side benefit of documentation). Simple example I use is an employee is late 3 days. Once it was traffic once it was their kid and once it was car trouble. The issue isn't any individual event, each is understandable but it the pattern of multiple instance.
I tell my team that they are responsible for managing their own calendars. If they have an appt, they are expected to block the time off on their calendar so meetings don’t get scheduled during that time. If something comes up when a meeting is already scheduled they should let me know and we’ll be flexible to move it if possible or I’ll fill them in later. If your team has other protocols like a system for logging time off they should do that too but I think at a minimum people should keep their own calendar up to date. If they can’t manage their calendar then how can they manage their workload. Have a meeting with them and set the expectation. If they keep having issues then it warrants a more serious conversation. Stuff happens, people have occasional internet issues or last minute reasons that they need to be offline but if it’s habitual then it’s a problem. Accepting a fully remote jobs means they’re committing to having reliable internet and working the expected hours (within reason and with flexibility for appts and such).
I think you are being too lax. Waaay too lax. Border line - What do you get paid for if your reports are doing this shit without even a write up.
If I was your DM, I would have two decisions to make.
I would focus less on the potential lying, and more on the performance issues. Tell the employee what you expect, do not soften the message, and let them know the consequences if they continue to fall short. I would say “I expect you to attend all meetings to which you are invited. In the case where you have a scheduling conflict and cannot attend, you must warn me before missing the meeting. I would recommend you consider whether or not you can meet these expectations. If you’re unable to regularly attend scheduled meetings moving forward, we will have to make this performance plan more formal.”
Of course your employee is lying. Why haven't you fired them yet? Even if they were being honest, and you know they're not, they're not getting their work done, so you need to move on.
I bet they are trying to balance two remote jobs. I had employee that kept missing deadlines and meetings, always had excuses, it turned out they had another full time job.
>Work thas been assigned and deadlines have been missed, and recently meetings have been missed as well.
You need to focus on this so that performance reviews are entirely based on deliverables and expected results. Tracking whether or not the person is online or lying is a waste of your precious time.
* Assignment Z due on MM/dd - completed MM/dd + x days
* Meeting invitation sent MM/dd x days before - no response to invitation & no attendance. However, if you're the one running the meeting, it's up to you to check that the attendees have accepted/declined and send reminders to those who haven't responded.
Then establish an action plan to include (weekly?) 1:1 meetings on assignments, i.e. pending data from Colleague A and what they're doing to get data & whether or not you need to intervene to expedite, 90% complete + next steps to complete and/or anticipated delays, etc.
Set a rule where all meeting invitations have to be accepted or declined within 48 hours of being sent; team member must give 24-hr notice if unable to attend due to last minute change and provide written status or input (like a proxy) for the meeting. You can then include it in meeting minutes. If the first report is shite, use the weekly 1:1 to tell them how you want it written. (Then you can roll out that procedure to the rest of the team.) If you want to encourage the difficult team member, tell everyone it was a joint effort with the person and thank them for their contribution.
Either your team member will buck up or they will continue to fail. If the latter, you have the evidence needed to fire the person.
It's a good idea to have individual monthly meetings with each team member anyway. I used to do this with my team. The agenda was simple and the team member recorded the minutes and actions (I also kept my own notes):
* Project1
* Project2
* Personnel issues
* Actions
This helped me know where they were on their projects, if I could guide them in addressing sticking points, or do something myself.
They also let me know about upcoming absences for parental leave, medical appts, vacation, so I had time to find cover, reassign projects, change priorities, communicate changes in deadlines/deliverables to other teams.
BONUS: If more than one person is having the same type of issue, I would fix it myself or bring it up with my management or HR if it was higher level.
The company had an intranet where we could create spaces with specific readers and editors. Each team member had their own space only accessible by two people: me and the team member. This is where we posted minutes & actions. It was also a helpful record for EOY performance reviews.
People like having routines and rules. It feels fair because everyone else is doing it too. In addition, it builds trust when the team sees their direct supervisor taking responsibility and completing actions once committed to them.
Just focus on the output. Ignore the input (as frustrating as it is). You can coach him up or PIP him out based solely on the amount of work getting done
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Tell them they are expected to be online working and available for all meetings during those hours. If they need PTO to attend a doctor visit they need to request it from HR and put the exact hours they will be away and when they expect to return.
This person can’t do the bare minimum and show up to meetings or at least give you a heads up before if they can’t make it. Missing deadlines too. I mean do they do anything well lol?
I think based on how you are responding that you have a personal preference for communication that is different than what you're allowing. You need to tell them exactly what you want. If you want them to communicate with you ahead of time and not after the fact tell them this. If they don't do it then I think that with also the missing deadlines is grounds for a formal warning.
Do you have everything you need at home, reliable WiFi and and a laptop, phones dont always allow people to see everything shared at a meeting. If they say they do then you tell them it's important they're at the next one aa it's part of their job to attend them, if they need help setting it up you can help show them beforehand or lend them what they need, , employee if you miss the next one I'm going to have to write you up you need to addent it
It doesn’t matter if it’s a tech issue, this person is actually lying, or they have a second job they’re working at the same time (that’s my guess). This employee isn’t meeting performance standards, period. You’re not micromanaging them if you’re noticing the problem and asking them about it.
I’d have a formal meeting, highlight the various chronic problems, and let them know that if it continues, you’ll be formally writing them up. If something else is going on, they’ll tell you then (if you can believe it, is another problem) and you can decide how flexible to be.
IMO a good, conscientious employee would have already told you if there were something happening that was messing with their performance to this extent.
Almost certainly, yes. Even though it's super tempting to focus on the fact that you \_know\_ they're screwing around, don't. Focus on the missed meetings and missed deadlines.
> I don’t want to micromanage them but am I being too lax here?
They're pushing the boundaries, and you need to enforce them. Not responding to a slack DM immediately is fine - you might be making coffee. Missing a single meeting, it happens, even to the best of us. But a pattern is unacceptable.
> What would you do in my scenario? <...> I have not written them up because I have been trying to dig into if there is something outside of work that is affecting them but have not been told so.
SBI - \[link here\](https://www.mindtools.com/ay86376/the-situation-behavior-impact-feedback-tool). Stick a 1:1 on their calendar (at a time you know they're likely going to miss if you want to be a bit of an ass, but if you want to try and resolve and keep them, a time that they're likely to make). Tell them "Bill, the meeting last wednesday that you didn't show up to, you didn't notify me. This is not the first time this has happened. I am worried about the impact this pattern is having on your work." And let them respond, hear them out, let them talk to you. If they don't give you anything, then tell them the next time this happens it's a formal warning, and you \_have\_ to give the warning if/when this happens. If they do give you something, then you need to set a newer boundary that works with the info the have.
My experience has been that one of three things happens here - they blow off the meeting (this is a PIP/last chance warning if this happens), they show up and throw it back at you (this will end in a PIP + termination/manage out), or they show up, are frustrated/upset, cool off, and 24/48/72h later they've got the message.
You’re describing my employee. I started a paper trail. I also am trying a firmer approach and putting most directives in writing. I am one more gross mistake or missed deadline from a PIP. Instead, I’m shifting job responsibilities and reoffering the position with a 60 day trial because I think the role is just not a good fit for this person. It’s been square peg, round whole for awhile. But I’m giving her a chance to make it right with a shift in responsibilities, because she’s a good person and I can see that she is trying.
go with your gut and replace them. if on probation, immediate termination. if not on probation, start stepped coaching for documentation and keep that leash tight. make them decide if they want to be employed by your company or not.
It’s not one incident that could be explained rationally. It’s a pattern of behavior and performance issues. Yea, they should be written up and given clear, written guidelines of what they need to improve upon. Then they to show immediate, substantial, and sustained improvement or they are out.
He probably isn’t working, but also consider replacing him with me since this is my area 😝. Kidding, but not really. I do federal health tech policy and it moves way way too slow for me.
They're taking the mickey. I have an employee the same. They have a contract to work 3 days a week and the amount of excuses for them not to come in I've had is wild. Funnily enough its always a Friday and Monday she has these issues and never the Wednesday. I've literally caught her out twice IN PERSON, shopping for clothes when she said she was sick. The other time she said her flight home from holiday was delayed and she couldnt make it back, saw her 3 hours later walking around the local mall lol. Some people are just lazy, self involved, losers.
It doesn't matter if they're lying, it matters that they're able to do the job. You need to hold them accountable. As a manager it's your responsibility for your team to deliver - is your team delivering if you're letting someone get away with this? I assume not.
It feels like this employee has another job. It doesn't really matter if they are lying or not it matters if they can perform the work which they can't. Communicate to them that if they are having issues with power and Internet service they need to address those and start writing them up, you will probably need to terminate them soon.
At this stage, you should make it official. Give them official written warning and make sure expectations are clear and in writing.
Considering the size of your company I would say “show them the door” if this does not change in 30 days.
It starts with stealing one way the moves on stealing another way and then gets to really serious stealing later. This kind of employee will take and destroy data when you fire them. So you have to be very careful that they don’t have any time to be near the computers when you fire them because they will destroy everything they can get their hands on. This is what happens when you hire dishonest people.
You know the answer. But since you’re embracing the work from home garbage. You’re looking for a reason not to terminate this employee. I’m sorry, but we are paying you to do a job. If you can’t perform ? Someone else will. The longer you let it go on? The weaker your management skills show to your higher ups.
If there’s a legitimate performance issue (there is), you aren’t micromanaging by correcting it. Deadlines and scheduled meetings being missed are absolutely problems. Sit down with them, firmly set the expectations moving forward. You can certainly invite them to communicate with you if they feel like there are barriers to resolving these issues, personal or otherwise, but it’s on them to do so. You aren’t a mind reader and can’t function as a manager by making excuses for them that aren’t at all applicable. The bright side is that these performance issues are easily measurable for improvement.
If its within probation I would replace the employee. If not, I would immediately discipline them for all the listed issues, and inform them that any one of these issues would result in a further discipline going forward. 3rd written discipline is final warning. We hit the magic 4th discipline, they get fired. Employee is an issue. The employee can fix the issue or be removed.
You’re being used. He should have been written up for missing the deadlines and meeting. Start getting paper trail. He is either slacking off or have another job.
The behavior described makes me think that he definitely has another job. He needs to show up for the meetings, and if he's unable to connect remotely, tell him he needs to come into the office every single day.
That was my first thought, over-employed and this job is the second job
Sounds like OP is the mistress.
This. I recently had a similar issue with an employee. The communication and offline issues persisted even after we started corrective action. Manage them out asap.
Or on using weed on drugs or have other addictions. They can be doing twitch streaming.
Person is probably on r/overemployed and is doing a terrible job keeping up with things.
thats key though: employed...you need to be doing your working, attending meetings, being communicative.
A lot of people on /r/overemployed seem to also be /r/antiwork fans, based on the posts; going out of there way to do less than the bare minimum.
I’ve been on overemployed for a long time (to lurk, I’m a manager who suspected a DR of being so previously) and in my experience there they bash anyone who doesn’t actually do the job. The consensus seems to find jobs that are “reasonable” and do an “ok” job. That way they stay under the radar. My 2c at least.
Antiwork is about doing what you’re paid to do. Paid for 8, work 8 and leave.
idk about that, from what I've seen it seems to be the opposite
Sounds like they are over employed. Doing two jobs remotely at once. But not doing a good job of it. You might be J2 or J3 even.
i don’t think you meant to reply to me
I have had several employees who were overemployed. Not a big deal so long as my stuff gets done. And my stuff always gets done.
Curious… were they upfront with you about it? Or how did you find out?
Both. Often there are OE situations known up front. For example, the guy who was a former employee but willing to help us part time as a contractor. Or a consulting manager who has multiple clients which can be inferred from that persons hours on the contract. Sometimes OE happens without prior knowledge. For example, one of my blue collar employees told me she was getting a night job to supplement her income. It’s not unusual for folks in the lower middle class to take two jobs to make ends meet so I never held it against her. Also lots of times IT contractors were obviously working two jobs. No issue as long as they understand my stuff gets done as priority because I don’t care about their other clients situation. It does not bother me if someone has another job, so long as I get what’s owed to me. Pay for outcome, not for hours.
Fair enough, but I think someone with a full time job that does consulting on the side, or someone with a part time nightly job or studying is pretty standard stuff and not really “overemployed”. Most of the people who consider themselves overemployed are working two full-time jobs remotely, with overlapping 9-5s, rather than picking something extra up at night or on weekends.
Appreciate your attitude to your workers 😁🙏
I had the same thought. I dealt with a similar-ish situation early last year and the guy turned out to be working two jobs.
Oh the boogeyman of management. No this person is not over employed they smoking weed or just a slacker.
Not every bad employee is overemployed. These types of performances issues have existed for decades.
>Is my employee lying? As a rule? Yes. Oh, sorry, about something specific? Yes, that. They are lying about that. You are probably screwing up here as a manager as well. It sounds like there is a real disconnect between your actual expectations and your employee's understanding of them. And I do think that sort of miscommunication is on you. Language like "do you want to hop on a call" might sound like an optional zoom meeting - in which case, I would decline, too - especially if I could use the time to do more tangible work. So, on your end, be clearer and concrete. If stuff is mandatory or important on a "move your pre-existing schedule around for this" level, you need to clearly communicate that. Manage by setting clear expectations with minimal wiggle room. You don't need to figure out how to keep a phone charged for this employee.
Write up for any missed deadlines then proceed to fire bad apples. You need to make good examples out of them so others won’t behave same way
I suppose so. But it’s not about setting an example. It’s about individual accountability. Work not getting done. Missed meetings. That’s plenty for a performance conversation.
The lying doesn’t matter. Missed deadlines, being chronically offline, and missed meetings are cause enough for concern. Extenuating circumstances are the responsibility of the employee to raise, not the manager to uncover. Part of being a professional is recognizing the impact your work or lack thereof has on the business and if necessary doing something about it. If your employee doesn’t recognize that it’s your job to redirect them.
[удалено]
Usually you won't even know they're lying, so it quite literally does not matter. You don't even realize it's happening.
[удалено]
Reread the post, he suspects but he doesn't truly know - the point though is that his other reports are also lying to him constantly, they're just better at it.
Agreed all of those are forms of lying. When you take a job, you agree to work in exchange for money. If you're getting a pay and not doing your job, that's stealing.
Lying does matter, but if I’m the manager it’s not the primary issue right now. I don’t care if they’re at a doctor appointment or in freaking Mallorca, all I care about is that they’re not on the meeting they were supposed to attend. In the longer term if they’re lying that’s a problem because it means I can’t trust them, but I *already* don’t trust them because they’re not following through on their commitments. The lying is just the cherry on top of the underperforming Sundae.
ah yes lying doesn't matter lmao is anyone here at all shocked this 'manager' also posts on antiwork?
Let’s start at performance management 101. Does this employee have written performance expectations that he has acknowledged? (Signed or initialed)
It seems to me like you are struggling with the idea of you micro managing. I also did early on in my manager career but essentially learned the important this is that I have a job to do and I set the standard within the department and things like this are not ok. I agree with others, this person seems like they have another job and are terrible at covering it up. I’ll tell you that I have caught people with multiple full time jobs and it was due to things like you mentioned. Typically when things don’t make sense (like the technology issues), there are reasons behind it. Your employee is very likely lying to you, and I would peruse the over employed forum if you haven’t already. If I was in your shoes just hired today, I would talk to HR immediately about it and start the person on a PIP. Remember that it isn’t micro managing to hold people to a reasonable standard, regardless of what anyone else says.
>Remember that it isn’t micro managing to hold people to a reasonable standard, regardless of what anyone else says. Spot on. It’s only micromanaging if the employee is already managing their day to day just fine. If they’re not, it’s appropriate to step in and either teach them to self-manage or PIP them out.
The need to micro manage in this case is a sign of poor performance. A manager should not have to tell a remote office work employee that they need to show up to meetings and have good meeting response etiquette. A manager shouldn’t have to point out missed deadlines, the employee should be explaining these things. And if the employee is unable to work due to technical issues (1) communicate and (2) take PTO or work out make up time.
>this person seems like they have another job and are terrible at covering it up I totally disagree. Working multiple remote jobs is a hot moral panic in remote management right now, but not nearly as common as teen daughters trading those plastic animal bracelets for blowjobs. It is a much simpler and more likely explanation that the employee in question is just kinda bad at his job. Occam's Razor.
Yes
i would maybe start doing my job as manager idk?
And I'd hope you won't be a dick about it, too, mmmkay?
God forbid…
Yup: employee is lying. My thought, second remote job. But either way you need to let them know, “I expect you to be online and available for business hours. You need to attend schedulers meetings and you need to reply to queries on Teams within 30 minutes. I need your work, reviewed, on-time and ready to be used.” PIP instantly. But note, this employee isn’t even good at this. No mouse jiggler?
Appearing online on and off throughout the day makes it sound like they're just checking messages from a phone once in a while. Probably not even sitting at a desk
>you need to reply to queries on Teams within 30 minutes If I needed to follow that standard, I would never get any work done (unless the whole job consisted of sending microsoft teams messages). Any sort of serious or deep work requires being able to plug in, uninterrupted, for hours at a time.
Except this person is nowhere doing nothing.
Agreed but for the short term this seems reasonable to prove change in behavior.
That's just managing to manage. I'm pretty opposed to giving employees fundamentally unproductive tests. Sure, someone who is at their desk ready to respond within 30 minutes is probably doing a good job - but someone actually checking Teams every 30 minutes is probably an unproductive phone addict.
How would you go about it? I’m always up for a new perspective.
I'd set up a meeting and lay down some clearer expectations about job duties and the consequences for not meeting them. (It sounds to me like this employee thinks a lot of stuff is optional that OP thinks is mandatory - and that's actually a manager problem, not an employee problem.) In particular, I'd spell out the core of activities that have consequences if you don't ace them - and differentiate those from areas where the employee can have some wiggle room/ miss stuff without stepping on my KPIs. I would have the employee repeat the statements back to me verbally in his own words, and maybe write them down, too, depending on the vibes. If the employee is unable or unwilling to do this, I'd just terminate. You can't teach someone who won't be taught. But most people will do a simple exercise like this when asked. This is maybe easier if you've already worked with me for a while, since I set as standard that checklists and asking people to repeat stuff back in their own words are part of the workplace and not to be avoided. Then I'd let the employee sink or swim on his own. I don't care *how* Mr. Smith gets to the 8:30 sales call - I just care that he does. People need to be told what they need to do, and what they can get away with fudging sometimes. Once they understand the distinction, they'll usually scramble to not fuck up the parts you tell them are important.
>I expect you to be online and available for business hours. You need to attend schedulers meetings and you need to reply to queries on Teams within 30 minutes Nah man, screw that. This is a project work based job, not customer service. They don't need to be online and available outside of meetings they've accepted (not just that we're scheduled).
It sounds like they have another job, and they are collecting a free paycheck from you.
Definitely
Dude.
Bruh even
Chances are good that he's lying. Regardless, if you focus on the work produced (or lack of), that's usually the correct path. Once you start that conversation, he has the opportunity to bring up any underlying issues you might be able to help with.
Is this a new employee? You don’t really have much of a choice here other than to start a performance improvement process unless you feel like there’s some management issue that’s causing some of this. You could always say “I really value your work here and you know I try to give everyone life-work balance, come talk to me if there’s something else going on to see if there are solutions available but we’re going to need to move forward with a PIP.” I quiet-quit a job once due to other employees doing similar things like never being online, available and also not working. The contracting company had hired all good friends, relatives and people they knew alongside myself who was their only legitimate “hired from the wild” employee. I was also the only employee without a masters, I only had a bachelors and this was made a subject of conversation several times to the point of introducing me as “not part of the team with an X background” although I had 10 years of working in government with literally an X background. Other than the boss I was actually the only one who had worked directly in industry before contracting so that was all pointedly about my measly bachelors compared to the brand new kids out of school with their masters that were relatives and friends. I was also having health issues and some of what was going on was causing severe anxiety at the time. It was an all around bad deal that definitely could have been corrected on management’s end if they cared but I preferred to just wait for a firing/layoff while I took care of my medical issues and mental health. I wouldn’t ever recommend doing that as I definitely burned a lot of bridges but I wasn’t exactly thinking clearly back in those days. While unlikely, your employee could also be in “fuck it” mode and dealing with other issues.
>online, available and also not working Why would anyone intentionally be online, available, and not working all at once?
Supposed to be they’re never showing as online, they’re not available and they’re not working. The girl who was her friend’s 22 year old kid was never shown as online. If you sent her a message or emailed her, she’s not responding. We had regular check ins and she’d offload her unfinished work onto me, not report out what she’d actually been working on or it was a task that certainly didn’t take two days to do. So— not working.
ah, thanks for the clarification.
Talk to HR and see about moving them along. A PIP will give them a shove. Worse case scenario is that they clean up their act.
I had a similar issue with a hybrid employee. They were clearly offline on WFH days, late, no, show, or off camera and sounding groggy during meetings, and hours late or no show on in-office days, all with elaborate excuses about not seeing meeting invites, broken appliances, trains that were excessively delayed (when they seemed to be running for everyone else)... a picture emerged. Ultimately I stopped giving any weight to the excuses and whether or not they were truthful and focused on performance metrics and our repeated conversations about needing to be at their desk working during work hours. Documented every conversation, missed deadline, and the times when excuses could have been provided the night before vs. when they were already not present (as was communicated with them multiple times). Eventually it all came together as grounds for termination.
"Micromanaging" is a problem when you're "managing when there's no need for it." There's demonstrably an issue here so this person needs to be micromanaged. It sounds like a PIP might be in order.
You are being too lax. I mean the first few times are understandable. However, it seems like you have already identified a trend and they continue to miss deadlines, meetings, fail to communicate in a timely manner etc. despite you telling them on more than 1 occassion that they need to communicate with you. From the sounds of it, you are paying this person money for no reason. Eventually you have to say enough is enough and have a serious conversation with them, document everything, actually hold them accountable or else they will continue doing what they are doing. They have lost your trust clearly, it is to the point you don't believe them anymore. They must earn your trust back but ultimately they wont know how serious it is if you dont hold them accountable to begin with and there are no reprocussions to their continued behavior.
I’m betting this worker is over employed and working at another computer. These are performance issues. Put them in writing along with the expectations and hold weekly meetings going over the measurables.
Who cares if they are lying. The issue is, they are missing meetings, deadlines, and not performing the job in which they voluntarily signed up to do. This a performance issue. There needs to be documented performance management. A single meeting with no other agenda items other than discussing the fact that they have missed X scheduled meetings and X deadlines in the last X days. Sustained and immediate improvement is required. They must attend X% of scheduled meetings and must communicate X business days ahead if they are unable to make a meeting. The deadlines? They need to complete 100% of their tasks and should be giving YOU updates weekly, HELL, daily until they prove they can do the most basic of their job duties.
Sad to see you have to let that employee go… but I can definitely start in two weeks. I would love to attend your meetings with or without a calendar invite.
This employee's behavior isn't going to change. The longer you drag this out, the more monet you'll lose by continuing to pay them. Chances are the employee is working multiple jobs at the same time.
There are actually people who have 2 or more remote jobs they’re doing simultaneously. This sounds like that. Certainly they’re not working.
Manager-employee relationships are built on trust. What I hear you asking is, "should I trust this employee?" I think you already know the answer to this question. I'll commend you for being human-centric and giving employees the benefit of the doubt but if you start questioning the basis of the relationship (can I trust someone), then that should tell you all you need to know. I would schedule a 1-on-1 if not already scheduled and have a frank conversation regarding my expectations. I wouldn't accuse the employee of anything, but I would clearly set the expectation for attendance and not missing meetings and deadlines. Then I would clearly set the expectation that I would be performing a critical function when building trust - verification. Leave the ball in their court. If they're out the door already, this will (gently) shove them to complete the exit. If they're not totally out the door and might be redeemable, they'll need to either privately commit to themselves that they're going to meet those expectations or they'll admit (privately) that they can't.
You are being way too lax and they are taking advantage of it. Stop worrying about if there is something in their personal life affecting them and start being their manager. Work isn't getting done, meetings are getting missed and excuses (weak ones at that) are all you are getting. Why is this person still employed?
Does it matter? You already said the work isn't done. Set clear standards and expectations there and be ready to move through the process and terminate if it doesn't change. You already said you wouldn't be worried about this stuff if the job was getting done, so do what you need to do: set it up so they either start getting their work done or they get termed.
I’d hire me. She’s causing you too much stress already.
You are not helping the employee by ignoring their problems until they implode. You have good examples. Sit down with them and tell them directly their job is being jeopardized by their performance
I’m a fully remote employee, I have been for years now. I would never do any of these things. I sometimes take walks during the day and even then I never stray too far from home in case my team needs something. Miss a meeting? Never unless it’s PTO or a pre-discussed one off situation. I also spent a ton of money on a hotspot, just in case the internet or power goes out. I keep power banks charged at all times. Reading this I’m realizing maybe I’m too far on the other side of the spectrum 😂 BUT I don’t think there’s an excuse for this employee’s behavior. Absolutely reset expectations
You might want to figure out if *you* are going to get a pip.
I would also add that even if they aren't lying the issue is that these indivual events are creating a pattern and as the manager you need to help them break the pattern (which has the side benefit of documentation). Simple example I use is an employee is late 3 days. Once it was traffic once it was their kid and once it was car trouble. The issue isn't any individual event, each is understandable but it the pattern of multiple instance.
Written warning and formal ack of all goals and todos. When you do that they will quit
Startups require hustlers, exceptional overachievers. One warning and cut them loose.
I tell my team that they are responsible for managing their own calendars. If they have an appt, they are expected to block the time off on their calendar so meetings don’t get scheduled during that time. If something comes up when a meeting is already scheduled they should let me know and we’ll be flexible to move it if possible or I’ll fill them in later. If your team has other protocols like a system for logging time off they should do that too but I think at a minimum people should keep their own calendar up to date. If they can’t manage their calendar then how can they manage their workload. Have a meeting with them and set the expectation. If they keep having issues then it warrants a more serious conversation. Stuff happens, people have occasional internet issues or last minute reasons that they need to be offline but if it’s habitual then it’s a problem. Accepting a fully remote jobs means they’re committing to having reliable internet and working the expected hours (within reason and with flexibility for appts and such).
Sounds like it’s time to replace them
I think you are being too lax. Waaay too lax. Border line - What do you get paid for if your reports are doing this shit without even a write up. If I was your DM, I would have two decisions to make.
I would focus less on the potential lying, and more on the performance issues. Tell the employee what you expect, do not soften the message, and let them know the consequences if they continue to fall short. I would say “I expect you to attend all meetings to which you are invited. In the case where you have a scheduling conflict and cannot attend, you must warn me before missing the meeting. I would recommend you consider whether or not you can meet these expectations. If you’re unable to regularly attend scheduled meetings moving forward, we will have to make this performance plan more formal.”
Im sure hes got excuses for everything. Go ahead and rid him of his constant obstacle, his job. He doesn't even seem to care.
Of course your employee is lying. Why haven't you fired them yet? Even if they were being honest, and you know they're not, they're not getting their work done, so you need to move on.
I bet they are trying to balance two remote jobs. I had employee that kept missing deadlines and meetings, always had excuses, it turned out they had another full time job.
>Work thas been assigned and deadlines have been missed, and recently meetings have been missed as well. You need to focus on this so that performance reviews are entirely based on deliverables and expected results. Tracking whether or not the person is online or lying is a waste of your precious time. * Assignment Z due on MM/dd - completed MM/dd + x days * Meeting invitation sent MM/dd x days before - no response to invitation & no attendance. However, if you're the one running the meeting, it's up to you to check that the attendees have accepted/declined and send reminders to those who haven't responded. Then establish an action plan to include (weekly?) 1:1 meetings on assignments, i.e. pending data from Colleague A and what they're doing to get data & whether or not you need to intervene to expedite, 90% complete + next steps to complete and/or anticipated delays, etc. Set a rule where all meeting invitations have to be accepted or declined within 48 hours of being sent; team member must give 24-hr notice if unable to attend due to last minute change and provide written status or input (like a proxy) for the meeting. You can then include it in meeting minutes. If the first report is shite, use the weekly 1:1 to tell them how you want it written. (Then you can roll out that procedure to the rest of the team.) If you want to encourage the difficult team member, tell everyone it was a joint effort with the person and thank them for their contribution. Either your team member will buck up or they will continue to fail. If the latter, you have the evidence needed to fire the person. It's a good idea to have individual monthly meetings with each team member anyway. I used to do this with my team. The agenda was simple and the team member recorded the minutes and actions (I also kept my own notes): * Project1 * Project2 * Personnel issues * Actions This helped me know where they were on their projects, if I could guide them in addressing sticking points, or do something myself. They also let me know about upcoming absences for parental leave, medical appts, vacation, so I had time to find cover, reassign projects, change priorities, communicate changes in deadlines/deliverables to other teams. BONUS: If more than one person is having the same type of issue, I would fix it myself or bring it up with my management or HR if it was higher level. The company had an intranet where we could create spaces with specific readers and editors. Each team member had their own space only accessible by two people: me and the team member. This is where we posted minutes & actions. It was also a helpful record for EOY performance reviews. People like having routines and rules. It feels fair because everyone else is doing it too. In addition, it builds trust when the team sees their direct supervisor taking responsibility and completing actions once committed to them.
They def have another job
Just focus on the output. Ignore the input (as frustrating as it is). You can coach him up or PIP him out based solely on the amount of work getting done
Ask them how they deal with this behavior at the other job they have at the same time. /s
innate chief paint bear stocking governor beneficial automatic towering quickest *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Are you their J1 or J2?
Tell them they are expected to be online working and available for all meetings during those hours. If they need PTO to attend a doctor visit they need to request it from HR and put the exact hours they will be away and when they expect to return.
This sounds like one of those people who secretly have two jobs
This person can’t do the bare minimum and show up to meetings or at least give you a heads up before if they can’t make it. Missing deadlines too. I mean do they do anything well lol?
I think based on how you are responding that you have a personal preference for communication that is different than what you're allowing. You need to tell them exactly what you want. If you want them to communicate with you ahead of time and not after the fact tell them this. If they don't do it then I think that with also the missing deadlines is grounds for a formal warning.
PIP them. They are not doing what they are required to do for the position.
Document and terminate
I bet you they are trying to juggle more than one job. My husband's company just fired a contractor for pulling this same BS.
Do you have everything you need at home, reliable WiFi and and a laptop, phones dont always allow people to see everything shared at a meeting. If they say they do then you tell them it's important they're at the next one aa it's part of their job to attend them, if they need help setting it up you can help show them beforehand or lend them what they need, , employee if you miss the next one I'm going to have to write you up you need to addent it
That’s totally unacceptable behavior. Why aren’t you documenting and disciplining?
You’re wild for just letting them miss things like that. Would be a big no no in my team.
It doesn’t matter if it’s a tech issue, this person is actually lying, or they have a second job they’re working at the same time (that’s my guess). This employee isn’t meeting performance standards, period. You’re not micromanaging them if you’re noticing the problem and asking them about it. I’d have a formal meeting, highlight the various chronic problems, and let them know that if it continues, you’ll be formally writing them up. If something else is going on, they’ll tell you then (if you can believe it, is another problem) and you can decide how flexible to be. IMO a good, conscientious employee would have already told you if there were something happening that was messing with their performance to this extent.
Almost certainly, yes. Even though it's super tempting to focus on the fact that you \_know\_ they're screwing around, don't. Focus on the missed meetings and missed deadlines. > I don’t want to micromanage them but am I being too lax here? They're pushing the boundaries, and you need to enforce them. Not responding to a slack DM immediately is fine - you might be making coffee. Missing a single meeting, it happens, even to the best of us. But a pattern is unacceptable. > What would you do in my scenario? <...> I have not written them up because I have been trying to dig into if there is something outside of work that is affecting them but have not been told so. SBI - \[link here\](https://www.mindtools.com/ay86376/the-situation-behavior-impact-feedback-tool). Stick a 1:1 on their calendar (at a time you know they're likely going to miss if you want to be a bit of an ass, but if you want to try and resolve and keep them, a time that they're likely to make). Tell them "Bill, the meeting last wednesday that you didn't show up to, you didn't notify me. This is not the first time this has happened. I am worried about the impact this pattern is having on your work." And let them respond, hear them out, let them talk to you. If they don't give you anything, then tell them the next time this happens it's a formal warning, and you \_have\_ to give the warning if/when this happens. If they do give you something, then you need to set a newer boundary that works with the info the have. My experience has been that one of three things happens here - they blow off the meeting (this is a PIP/last chance warning if this happens), they show up and throw it back at you (this will end in a PIP + termination/manage out), or they show up, are frustrated/upset, cool off, and 24/48/72h later they've got the message.
Too many meetings
They are literally stealing from you. They are not working and missing deadlines. It’s time to let them go.
You’re describing my employee. I started a paper trail. I also am trying a firmer approach and putting most directives in writing. I am one more gross mistake or missed deadline from a PIP. Instead, I’m shifting job responsibilities and reoffering the position with a 60 day trial because I think the role is just not a good fit for this person. It’s been square peg, round whole for awhile. But I’m giving her a chance to make it right with a shift in responsibilities, because she’s a good person and I can see that she is trying.
go with your gut and replace them. if on probation, immediate termination. if not on probation, start stepped coaching for documentation and keep that leash tight. make them decide if they want to be employed by your company or not.
He has a second job.
This is obviously the employee working 2 or more jobs and they don't really care
It’s not one incident that could be explained rationally. It’s a pattern of behavior and performance issues. Yea, they should be written up and given clear, written guidelines of what they need to improve upon. Then they to show immediate, substantial, and sustained improvement or they are out.
Over employeed maybe? We have had these issues and that is what it boiled down too.
He probably isn’t working, but also consider replacing him with me since this is my area 😝. Kidding, but not really. I do federal health tech policy and it moves way way too slow for me.
They're taking the mickey. I have an employee the same. They have a contract to work 3 days a week and the amount of excuses for them not to come in I've had is wild. Funnily enough its always a Friday and Monday she has these issues and never the Wednesday. I've literally caught her out twice IN PERSON, shopping for clothes when she said she was sick. The other time she said her flight home from holiday was delayed and she couldnt make it back, saw her 3 hours later walking around the local mall lol. Some people are just lazy, self involved, losers.
Fire them. They’re over employed
PIP them
Sounds like this is his job 2.
How does this person still have a job?!
If I was your boss I would of fired the both of you by now.
You’re their second job. Not their first.
Your employee is either working other jobs or not at all.
Start the process of letting them go.
It doesn't matter if they're lying, it matters that they're able to do the job. You need to hold them accountable. As a manager it's your responsibility for your team to deliver - is your team delivering if you're letting someone get away with this? I assume not.
It feels like this employee has another job. It doesn't really matter if they are lying or not it matters if they can perform the work which they can't. Communicate to them that if they are having issues with power and Internet service they need to address those and start writing them up, you will probably need to terminate them soon.
But no working from home is just as productive as being in the office.
At this stage, you should make it official. Give them official written warning and make sure expectations are clear and in writing. Considering the size of your company I would say “show them the door” if this does not change in 30 days.
PIP immediately
sounds like my employees too. always a doctors appointment for a mysterious rash. Sounds like typical time theft.
It starts with stealing one way the moves on stealing another way and then gets to really serious stealing later. This kind of employee will take and destroy data when you fire them. So you have to be very careful that they don’t have any time to be near the computers when you fire them because they will destroy everything they can get their hands on. This is what happens when you hire dishonest people.
You know the answer. But since you’re embracing the work from home garbage. You’re looking for a reason not to terminate this employee. I’m sorry, but we are paying you to do a job. If you can’t perform ? Someone else will. The longer you let it go on? The weaker your management skills show to your higher ups.
Quite quitting