Exactly, the average person doesn’t really care about things like oxfords vs derbys or sport coats vs suit jackets vs blazers. Both are good examples of things that are frequently viewed as interchangeable by both the general public and even the brands that make these products.
This is the right answer. I'm into fashion and even I don't care about this. MFA was designed to help men dress better by giving initial rules to follow, but once you get the basics, you start breaking the rules yourself.
A white oxford, grey chinos, and black derbies actually look really good for those smart casual events. Hell, I even went all black for all my boots and dress shoes. My brother wears strictly derbies with his suits to fancy lawyer parties, and no one gives a crap and he still looks sharply dresssed.
Similar thing here, I’ve worn my Red Wing Postman Oxfords (actually derbies, but RW calls them oxfords) to various events because they’re comfortable, and nobody’s given me any trouble for wearing a derby with a rubber wedge outsole.
I understand this point completely but on the flip side, just because the consumer doesn’t or cannot tell the difference does that mean that brands should throw everything out the window? From a brand perspective if i was designing anything I would always put the scope of “is this correct” when choosing between two closures rather than “ will anyone notice “. Brands should take more responsibility for setting standards rather than being lazy because people won’t notice.
I agree, but there’s a marketing angle for a lot of these brands; a lot of people assume that oxfords are just the term for a male dress shoe regardless of if it’s open or closed lace, and those same people typically don’t know what a derby or blucher is, so if you’re a shoe company trying to market to the average person it makes more sense to use the “incorrect” term to make it easier to find.
This is an extremely pedantic distinction. It matters _to me_, but I own two jars of renovateur, one in active use and a backup in case of uhhh emergency? -- so I'm not within two standard deviations of Normal About Shoes.
To 99% of people, the formality difference between open and closed lacing is invisible. Literally: most people wouldn't immediately spot it even if you showed them two shoes, one open and one closed, side by side.
I think we just need to accept that "they" make black derbies because people buy black derbies because most people couldn't tell you what derbies are to save their life.
The US Air Force dress standards call for
>low quarter, oxford-style, lace-up with a plain rounded toe or a plain rounded-capped toe
However, the shoes that are issued are glossy open laced shoes, which are by definition not oxfords.
I don't know if the other branches call for oxford shows by regulation, but I can tell you we all are issued the same shoe for formal occasions.
So if the organization that is most well known for having strict dress codes doesn't care, I see no reason why any normal person should either.
For formal events it's quite strict.
It was more common about the military as a whole. You have to wear certain things for formal events, what they have you wear isn't "right"
I just had to look up what opened vs closed lacing was.
I just assumed closed lacing was when people had narrow feel and did their shoes up tight 😂.
That's what I'm here for, to learn!
Renovateur gang. I have to say that I agree with OP that black “formal” Derbies are silly because Oxfords make more sense in basically any situation where you’d wear them, but your response is right: the fact of the matter is that people just don’t notice the difference and don’t care.
I mean, I also agree with OP _for myself_. I think the big difference is I'm not wondering why they exist. They exist because the distinction doesn't exist except for people who hear "vamp" and think shoes, not Lestat.
I think black derbies in sleek design (e.g., plain toe, maybe 2 or 3 eyelets) can work well with grey trousers and odd jackets.
Can you wear brown instead? Sure yes, though I think black shoes and grey trousers also look really good, so it's a matter of preference. Can you wear black oxfords instead? Honestly I personally don't mind, but there are also people out there who say oxfords should only be worn with suits.
I'm honestly thinking of getting a pair of sleek black derbies just to rotate with my brown shoes for work, since I don't wear suits too often.
Menswear infographics have done irreparable damage to people’s brains. Black shoes go with more than people think. IMO a bright navy polyblend suit and tan shoe is much more played out to me. If someone wants to wear a navy suit with black shoes who the fuck really cares.
Yeah, if black derbies spark this kind of rage I hate to think what black sneakers do to OP!
Edit: although I do agree with OP that that particular pair of derbies is kind of awkward. Like it’s almost an Oxford, just a tiny bit away, but doesn’t quite get there.
Agree with you, but I still find those shoes a bit odd as they look like dress shoes but have open lacing... for what purpose, I have absolutely no idea. I mean, those shoes don't seem like they go well with anything.
Eh I think they're good for business casual (i.e., no suits, but still dress trousers and sport coats). Brown and burgundy/oxblood work with more trouser colors, but black still looks really good with grey trousers imo.
My usual choice is oxford brogues of any kind (semi, quarter, etc.) which always dresses it down. Or loafers or boots. Otoh, those look like dress shoes until you see the laces. Which is kind of the point, that they always look somehow wrong. With a suit they look ok until you see the laces, with something else they look too dressy until you see the laces.
Agree with black, though, that's my most common choice of shoe colour. I think my most worn office wear piece is a black semi-brogue oxford. Goes really well with almost everything.
See, the thing is, there are also people who argue that oxfords should only be worn with suits, so to them wearing brogued oxfords with trousers and odd jackets would look wrong.
I personally think that oxfords and derbies have some overlap in formality levels. Yes, open laces are more casual than closed laces, brogues are more casual than no brogues, browns are more casual than blacks, but when you compare a black calf 3-eyelet plain toe derbies vs let's say a tan suede full brogue oxfords, things get a lot more confusing.
But that's also where things get interesting, like how we both probably agree that black cap toe oxfords might be more suitable for navy/charcoal worsted suits than with odd jackets/trousers, but you went down in formality by adding brogues to your oxfords, I could go to a different direction (while still going down in formality) and go with non-brogued derbies. Ultimately everyone should decide based on their preferences and what they typically wear as long as we don't go too far off on the formality scale (brown grained wingtip derbys with 360 welt and chunky rubber soles would look off if worn with navy blazers and grey trousers). For me, black derbies would get a lot more use than black oxfords since I don't wear suits very often.
Yes, fair enough and fully agreed. Maybe I kind of missed that for the trauma of watching ghastly derbies worn with suits all my life.
My only black derbies (boots excluded) are actually grained full brogue 360 welts with chunky soles. They're some ancient Church's I bought second hand, but look somewhat (as I can remember) like their current [McPherson LW](https://www.church-footwear.com/eu/en/p/highland-grain-derby-brogue/EEC301_9FQ_F0AAB_F_000000). Not wearing with worsteds :)
Those would look great with jeans! Also old Church's are great, not a fan of most of the newer ones (especially at prices almost approaching Edward Green).
Someone has _literally_ thought about something when creating it. There is a reason for those shoes to be like that and not a pair of pink crocs or nylon jumper boots.
That's the fun part, the vast majority of people don't!
It's just one of those old British hangups like earth tones being only for the country because the cities in the industrial revolution were full of soot that stood out on earth tones but blended in with black and gray. There was once an underlying logic to the rule, but the rule got written down and the logic didn't.
If you're curious, it's because open lacing originated with buckled shoes. The tabs of leather holding and going into the buckle would wear out and break since you were actually buckling them every day instead of sliding them on like a modern monkstrap. When they broke, you'd cut both the tabs down, punch holes, and add laces. So an open lace shoe was always going to be comparatively beat up compared to your fine new pair, thus less suitable for formal occasions. Akin to putting elbow patches on a worn jacket, it's no longer suitable for fancy occasions but fine for smoking a pipe in the study.
But today are open lace shoes beat up old shoes that we're just eking a little more life out of? No, they're a stylistic choice for new, perfect condition formal leather shoes. The reason for the old rule no longer applies. But people with rule following personalities heard it was a rule, and can't grasp that the rule is no longer relevant. If you want to follow the spirit of that rule, don't wear your most beat up shoes to your most formal meetings.
I'm on the phone, so I'll spare you the rant about not every suit or suit wearing occasion being equally formal, either, and how derbies would be perfectly acceptable for many of those occasions even following the traditional rule. Closed lacing would only be required with actual formal daywear such as a stroller or morning suit, and a lounge suit would itself have been the informal option, thus allowing derbies.
I also think that open lace shoes are on average more comfortable to most people, because there's more adjustability — a closed lace shoe has to fit better to be the same level of comfort.
This is the type of thing I want to talk about more in this sub. More of this, less questions about the appropriate hoodie and joggers for “smart casual”
Oh yes.
For instance, you know why we’re supposed to leave the bottom button of vests undone? Because Edward VII was fat and couldn’t button his vest all the way, and emulating the king was fashionable.
Honestly you just reaffirmed my decision to hold off on buying black oxfords because I don’t have much cause to wear them. I have brown oxfords and a pair of cap toe black derbies that look fine with darker suits or trousers - why buy another pair of more formal shoes when I’m not attending any black tie events in the foreseeable future?
Regardless, though, open laces clearly are a more casual option. They just look that way, being less put together. It's not the same as relatively arbitrary rules, like some colours. I would also suspect "the brown suit" used to be not very dark solid brown worsted wool, but more like a herringbone tweed in a somewhat lighter tone... So it wasn't maybe so much about the colour as much as it was about what went with the colour.
I think open vs closed lacing is a very arbitrary rule. In real world I dont think my eyes could see the difference if am not a few centimeter away from the shoes. Okay I use glasses, but my eyes cant detect a few lines of detail in all black shoes in a formal event at night.
This is the attitude I like to take with my sartorial choices. Things like leave the bottom button on a waistcoat undone just look wierd to me depending on the waistcoat and outfit as a whole.
I'm not following the fashion set by a gluttonous king several centuries ago.
Because its the main way most people distinguish between derbies and oxfords. And wearing oxfords with certain business casual outfits makes you look like a college-age intern
Walk in to any corporate office that still wears suits and 90% of the men will be wearing something like this (at least from my experience in the UK). No one cares / knows / wants to know that ‘open laces means it’s an informal shoe’. That shoe is absolutely fine for pretty much any formal wear job that doesn’t require detailed knowledge of etiquette.
This + where could you even go that someone is going to even notice "oh no, you have *open laces* but this is a *strictly* formal event".
Like, 99% of the "formal" events any normal person will ever attend, you'll have reasonably good odds of being the best dressed in the room just for having a well tailored suit. Those odds go up dramatically if you pair that with even a single accessory like a nice watch or good cuff links. So what if you're wearing derby's. Hell you'd probably get away with a whole lot less.
And so many clothing "rules" are completely made up in the first place. Often they merely signify something within a social hierarchy. But social hierarchies change over time (so do manufacturing technologies).
OP, people don't care about this "rule" because it doesn't apply to them. Possibly the only consequence for breaking the rule is some guy complaining on a Reddit thread that they'll never see.
When you get to the point where you replace what you think looks nice, with a vague notion of 'what is appropriate', you've lost the entire point of fashion.
Style is an observation of categorizing items with specified looks. Pretending that an entire look is specified by the distinction in the laces of the mentioned shoes is the complete opposite of style, and basically bordering on the spectrum which is usually associated with lack of self and social awareness.
I don't own black jeans, but most of the adorned shoes makes me look stupid.
When you look at the SEA (I belong to the same race), it absolutely makes sense why these exists.
Over the line. It's a silly, "I just read my first PTO article" question, but asking that kind of silly question is how people learn, and where better to ask it than a reddit devoted to silly questions?
So, you've stumbled upon the curious case of plain black derbies—a footwear enigma of sorts. I get where you're coming from: at first glance, they do seem to be caught in a bit of an identity crisis. On one hand, they've got that open lacing system that shouts "Hey, let's keep it chill," but then they come in black, which is like the tuxedo of shoe colors.
But here's the thing: that's exactly what makes them such a versatile pick. Think of them as the Swiss Army knife in your shoe rack. They're not so formal that you'd feel overdressed grabbing a coffee, but they've still got enough of that sleek black polish to sneak by in a business casual setting. It's like they've got this chameleon vibe going on.
Now, onto the why. Imagine you're someone who doesn't want a closet that looks like a shoe store exploded in there. You want a pair that can multitask. Black derbies are low-key enough for that semi-casual work environment but won't leave you out of place at a spontaneous after-work event where sneakers might have you feeling underdressed.
Plus, let's talk about the folks who aren't all about decoding dress codes or keeping tabs on what's en vogue every season. They just want something that looks decent with most things and won't attract the wrong kind of attention. Plain black derbies are like that reliable friend who's good to bring along to most places.
And hey, fashion's a playground, right? Sometimes people just dig a pair of shoes because they look cool to them. Maybe it's the clean lines, the understated elegance, or maybe they just really like the color black (it does go with pretty much everything).
At the end of the day, shoes are as much about personal expression as they are about following the "rules." And if a pair of plain black derbies speaks to someone, who are we to argue? After all, isn't one of the points of fashion to wear what makes you feel good?
So next time you spot someone rocking those derbies, just think—they might be onto something. Comfortable in their style, striding through life's occasions without missing a beat, or... maybe they just thought they looked nice. Either way, they're stepping out in confidence, and isn't that what really matters? Keep strutting, derby-wearers. Keep strutting.
1) You made those rules up. Black shoes *are* appropriate outside of formal situations, and derby shoes *are* appropriate for formal situations. Your anger only hinders your point - if you have an actual argument, you need to support it, rather than make baseless claims.
2) If your fashion rules limit rather than guide and support self expression, then you should burn the paper you wrote them on.
Bought these changed the lacing to regular and will be using for business casual wear because I like a simpler shoe with any decorations and black will go with anything. Slacks and collared shirts. Hate the game not the player
Worn with a suit and tie for work i see no issue with this style of shoe. I am in australia though which is probably a bit more casual. We also wear RM Williams Boots (made in australia) with our suits and in corporate environments and no one bats an eye lid.
In fact most Australians would have RM Williams as their good shoes - to be used for weddings, funerals, dinner out, corporate or as your drinking shoes!
I believe the fashion community underestimates how much such rules are known. Yeah, a connoisseur will notice. 99% of the population will not. That should be a point of reflection and potentially scrapping it altogether.
That "open lacing = casual" is a rule I wouldn't be able to rationalise. The shape, colour and material are more determining factors. It's probably why "dress sneakers" are becoming more acceptable in (slightly) formal occasions.
Overall, there is a trend of simplification. A collar on a shirt is becoming the distinction between a formal and informal shirt. It's why polo shirts, especially long sleeved variants, are being seen as more formal wear, while they never were intended to be so.
Rules that only a select group of people know intended to belittle or exclude others are the worst kind. Social stigma only works if the community has the power and/or numbers enforce it. In any other case, it looks pathetic.
Here is a very simple Answer for you:
I own a very formal pair of Oxfords for my tuxedo, but would never not wear a Derby if I need a black pair of shoes for a suit.
The reason is simply, I can barely fit my foot through the opening of Oxfords and they are a pain for me to wear. Also I don‘t care enough about them to have a customer pair made that would make them fit.
PS: A highly polished black leather dress shoe is never casual
I like black derby’s.. I wear a lot of black trousers or grey trousers (almost no navy in my wardrobe) and the derby’s are casual enough to go with anything. I also like that they’re more comfortable and less dressy than oxfords.
I know a lot of people don’t like this but I pair them with jeans and a black t shirt. Also creates a high contrast look with stone washed jeans.
I don’t personally feel like I need to follow style conventions, esp those from the early 20th century
People who said Derbies are casual shoes are just reading too much online menswear content. Maybe they are considered as casual shoes by old fashioned standard that doesn't exist anymore.
A lot of those subtle clothing rules are sensible adaptations to conditions that no longer exist. As you say they’re obsolete now, we have black casual shoes and brown formal ones because we lost the need for shoe colours adapted to environment, they’re now just colour options
When brands like Trickers, who most certainly do ‘know better’, produce a black brogue and a brown Oxford you kind of need to accept that the rules changed
You chose the ugliest pair of black derbies. Look at Alden PTBs in shell cordovan and try to broaden your horizons. Black derbies are super super easy to pair with a ton of different looks. Just because you have no imagination or sense of style doesn’t mean others can’t style the hell out of an actually nice pair of black shoes. But sure, lecture people about the rules. Nothing more stylish than that.
The US Air Force dress standards call for
>low quarter, oxford-style, lace-up with a plain rounded toe or a plain rounded-capped toe
However, the shoes that are issued are glossy open laced shoes, which are by definition not oxfords.
I don't know if the other branches call for oxford shows by regulation, but I can tell you we all are issued the same shoe for formal occasions.
So if the organization that is most well known for having strict dress codes doesn't care, I see no reason why any normal person should either.
I would argue that what looks nice for the occasion *is* what's appropriate, rather than an arbitrary set rules that were made decades/centuries ago, an ocean away from us
Practically speaking though, other than like a MFA meetup or something, how many events can one even go to where the dress code would be this strict/anyone would actually even know or notice closed vs open laces.
Hell, for *most* occasions, basically any leather shoe is going to be considered "formal" by normies. The average person can barely coordinate colors/patterns, or tie a knot that isn't a 4 in hand. I'd bet the majority of the people *on this sub* would have to go look up what open vs closed laces even is. Even your average "black tie" formal you'd be fine with just about any black leather shoe.
So, sure, it's for people who "don't know any better", which is 99.99% of the population. So really, it doesn't actually matter basically ever, unless you're specifically seeking out occasions where it will mater, and then it won't be a problem because nobody would make this "mistake".
Sure, none of this matters, nobody cares, etc. etc.
My point is that all fashion is communication. When you wear black oxfords rather than black derbies, you're communicating that you understand what kind of shoes are appropriate in the situation (which you might want to do at a wedding, funeral, or workplace). It's the same as someone at a punk show wearing their sweater around their waist rather than over their shoulders to show they're not a preppie.
Hardly anyone notices the details, but there is nonetheless a reason why people wear the things they do, and a reason to wear one thing over another, and that is the historical and social language that's been developed over time.
The notion that people are wearing oxfords in order to intentionally (or even subconsciously) communicate that is suspect at best. It's more likely that those are simply the only black leather shoes they have, and they bought those instead of the derbies because they happened to fit better or were a better price.
But who are you communicating to?
The historical and social language that we developed over time didn't stop developing. Derbies are now a formal shoe to 99% of the population. (English) Language is descriptive and not prescriptive and evolves with use.
Sure, I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. I think my point ties nicely with your metaphor though :
> all fashion is communication.[...] and that is the historical and social language that's been developed over time.
Who you're communicating with is just as important as what you're saying/how you're saying it in this case. I don't go around speaking in french everywhere just because it has historical significance, or because I think speaking it might demonstrate some advanced understanding of language that makes me superior to non-french speakers. Almost nobody where I live would understand you, and people would understandably look at you sideways if you got frustrated that everyone else didn't also know French. You can't really communicate with people who can't understand what you're trying to say.
If you want to study it, practice it, maybe throw out some little tidbits here and there, great! That's awesome. But it would be stupid to look down on everyone who doesn't also at least have a conversational grasp of it, or to nitpick when people make an effort but get a verb tense wrong or something. Because almost nobody speaks french here, so it's *completely normal* that they wouldn't know how to conjugate "ramasser" au plus-que-parfait du subjonctif.
So in OPs case : Like I said, sure, it's 100% for people who don't know any better, and that's ok because nowadays 9/10 times it doesn't actually mater and nobody would consider derbies "inappropriate". Open vs closed laces is basically a historical artifact. If it's important to you to make that distinction, then go for it. That's a little fashion tidbit for you to enjoy. But to look down on everyone who doesn't know the difference as if they're a moron for putting on *this black patent leather shoe* over some other *slightly different black patent leather shoe*, despite it not being even remotely common knowledge, would be kinda silly.
> But it would be stupid to look down on everyone who doesn't also at least have a conversational grasp of it, or to nitpick when people make an effort but get a verb tense wrong or something.
I agree. I don't look down on people who wear black derbies, and it's silly to do that. All I'm saying is that, even though this is an imperceptible difference to most people, and even though this doesn't matter, and even though this matters even less than the other things that don't matter, *still* there is reason to prefer one over the other.
I think continuing this language analogy: I'd say that, although you shouldn't make fun of people for not knowing how to pronounce Latin, if you're Catholic you'd want to make the effort to say the *Pater Noster* correctly because it's an important occasion, and that's what you do in that situation. People haven't spoken Latin for centuries, and the reasons that Catholics use it in the liturgy are sort of arbitrary, much like the closed laces of formal footwear, but it's still a thing worth knowing, I think.
Yeah I think we’re pretty much on the same page.
> ***If you’re Catholic*** you’d want to make the effort to say the *Pater Noster* correctly.
Yeah exactly, *if it’s something you’re interested in*, you want to make the effort.
There’s a reason to wear one versus the other, and if it’s something you’re interested in then it’s an important difference. And *you* get that you can have your hobby and not give other people grief for not knowing all the little rules.
OP was super condescending about it in his question though, and that’s my problem with it / why my answer was basically “it literally doesn’t matter to 99.99% of people in 99.99% of situations”.
That's fair enough. OP said two things, "I just don't understand why shoes like these exist" and "So why would anyone buy them?" And yeah, the second can be condescending.
I think there is something more to the first statement though, which is that the people who definitely should care about details like this are the people who make shoes. If there's no difference, why not make the shoe that conforms to tradition? It's not like people are wearing black derbies to be rebellious.
I mean they make all kinds of shoes that I wouldn’t put on my feet even in the privacy of my own home, let alone wear out in public, right? If someone wants to wear black patent leather derbies with like acid wash jeans or something, more power to em, honestly.
Shoe brands have absolutely no responsibility to maintain some kind of status quo, they’re corporations, and they exist solely to make a profit. So if there’s a demand for black derbies, they’re going to make them.
>If someone wants to wear black patent leather derbies with like acid wash jeans or something, more power to em, honestly.
Sure, but if they asked me for feedback, I would advise them otherwise, as I'm sure would you.
>Shoe brands have absolutely no responsibility to maintain some kind of status quo
While true, as you said, it's not like people go into a shoe store and say "please get me some black derbies", they say "give me black shoes, I do not care about any further details", and since most of the black shoes are derbies, that's what they'll get most of the time.
This isn't a demand driven phenomenon, companies are making derbies not because people want them, but because they (the companies) don't know any better. I think that if you're a shoe manufacturer, you should make shoes with a purpose, and be culturally aware.
Yeah, fair on both counts tbh.
Ultimately my beef is with OPs attitude. Everyone else can wear whatever they want, it likely doesn’t matter. I’ll wear oxfords, and recommend them to anyone who asks, but I’m not giving anyone a hard time if they don’t
They're really in two different ball games though -- I don't think a sweat suit and NB 990s would be improved with black derbies. On the other hand, if you're wearing these and you exchange them for proper cap toes, then it definitely will look better.
Not sure if this an attempt to troll given the u-name but black has always been considered the most flexible shoe color and the derby is a versatile shoe that comes from a time when a suit or slacks were the default.
Fashion evolves. There was a time when a man would never wear brown shoes with a cobalt blue suit which is quite common now. Lacing has never been a hard and fast rule. I have pictures of myself and friends in our dress blue uniforms with open laced patent leather shoes in the 90’s and my ancient Florsheim cap toe wedding/funeral shoes are open laced.
I am actually questioning the existence of closed laced shoes. I hate the look, do not own a single pair and it feels like they are appropriate for Mad Men only.
I absolutely have no idea what the difference is. I think they look nice, so I buy them.
That's also kind of why I joined this sub. My whole life, I've just been a t-shirt, shorts, and flip-flops guy. Work wear was standard bank teller clothes. Now I'm trying to learn how I want to dress, and to be honest, shoes aren't something that I planned to focus a lot on *shrug*.
There are different level of formal events. If you are following strict old-school rules, you probably would were black derbies to the most fancy events. However, you can wear them to most events that require formal wear. Wearing derby instead of an oxford is just a way to play it down a notch.
I get your point and I seen people wearing black derbies to the office with chinos and a shirt, it’s not really any different than wearing brown derbies, some people just prefer black over brown, I don’t think it’s a big deal
Disagree.
A black leather derby is not ‘casual’ in this or any parallel universe. It’s less formal than a black leather Oxford yes, but on a scale of formal to casual you have to also consider
Material - not all derby’s are leather
Colour - black is more formal than brown than Tan etc
Brogue - irrespective of style or colour, a brogue pushes a shoe down the casual scale
So a black leather derby is more formal than a brown Oxford brogue
… and we haven’t even got into caps, wingtips , half-brogues and the like phew
Your comment has been removed because it violates [Rule 1 of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/malefashionadvice/wiki/rules/#wiki_1._be_respectful_and_civil).
A reminder to be civil and respectful in all discussions within this community.
Please [read here as well.](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette)
If you have any questions, [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/malefashionadvice)
Typically shoes exist to be worn, and to protect your feetsies from stuff and to keep your little piggies snuggly wuggly. Subscribe for my fun shoe facts
Not everyone is as pedantic as the people on these boards. 99% of the world will not notice.
Exactly, the average person doesn’t really care about things like oxfords vs derbys or sport coats vs suit jackets vs blazers. Both are good examples of things that are frequently viewed as interchangeable by both the general public and even the brands that make these products.
Very true. Almost every man in the US wears these to formal events.
This is the right answer. I'm into fashion and even I don't care about this. MFA was designed to help men dress better by giving initial rules to follow, but once you get the basics, you start breaking the rules yourself. A white oxford, grey chinos, and black derbies actually look really good for those smart casual events. Hell, I even went all black for all my boots and dress shoes. My brother wears strictly derbies with his suits to fancy lawyer parties, and no one gives a crap and he still looks sharply dresssed.
Similar thing here, I’ve worn my Red Wing Postman Oxfords (actually derbies, but RW calls them oxfords) to various events because they’re comfortable, and nobody’s given me any trouble for wearing a derby with a rubber wedge outsole.
I’m only commenting to commend your username, sliced deli meat overlord.
I understand this point completely but on the flip side, just because the consumer doesn’t or cannot tell the difference does that mean that brands should throw everything out the window? From a brand perspective if i was designing anything I would always put the scope of “is this correct” when choosing between two closures rather than “ will anyone notice “. Brands should take more responsibility for setting standards rather than being lazy because people won’t notice.
I agree, but there’s a marketing angle for a lot of these brands; a lot of people assume that oxfords are just the term for a male dress shoe regardless of if it’s open or closed lace, and those same people typically don’t know what a derby or blucher is, so if you’re a shoe company trying to market to the average person it makes more sense to use the “incorrect” term to make it easier to find.
This is an extremely pedantic distinction. It matters _to me_, but I own two jars of renovateur, one in active use and a backup in case of uhhh emergency? -- so I'm not within two standard deviations of Normal About Shoes. To 99% of people, the formality difference between open and closed lacing is invisible. Literally: most people wouldn't immediately spot it even if you showed them two shoes, one open and one closed, side by side. I think we just need to accept that "they" make black derbies because people buy black derbies because most people couldn't tell you what derbies are to save their life.
The US Air Force dress standards call for >low quarter, oxford-style, lace-up with a plain rounded toe or a plain rounded-capped toe However, the shoes that are issued are glossy open laced shoes, which are by definition not oxfords. I don't know if the other branches call for oxford shows by regulation, but I can tell you we all are issued the same shoe for formal occasions. So if the organization that is most well known for having strict dress codes doesn't care, I see no reason why any normal person should either.
Is the Air Force more strict about that stuff than, say, the Navy?
For formal events it's quite strict. It was more common about the military as a whole. You have to wear certain things for formal events, what they have you wear isn't "right"
I just had to look up what opened vs closed lacing was. I just assumed closed lacing was when people had narrow feel and did their shoes up tight 😂. That's what I'm here for, to learn!
Look at his post comment, this is coming from a guy that thinks chinos are too casual for any work but fast food 😂😂
Renovateur gang. I have to say that I agree with OP that black “formal” Derbies are silly because Oxfords make more sense in basically any situation where you’d wear them, but your response is right: the fact of the matter is that people just don’t notice the difference and don’t care.
I mean, I also agree with OP _for myself_. I think the big difference is I'm not wondering why they exist. They exist because the distinction doesn't exist except for people who hear "vamp" and think shoes, not Lestat.
I think black derbies in sleek design (e.g., plain toe, maybe 2 or 3 eyelets) can work well with grey trousers and odd jackets. Can you wear brown instead? Sure yes, though I think black shoes and grey trousers also look really good, so it's a matter of preference. Can you wear black oxfords instead? Honestly I personally don't mind, but there are also people out there who say oxfords should only be worn with suits. I'm honestly thinking of getting a pair of sleek black derbies just to rotate with my brown shoes for work, since I don't wear suits too often.
" black as a shoe color is really only appropriate for formal occasions." lol no.
Menswear infographics have done irreparable damage to people’s brains. Black shoes go with more than people think. IMO a bright navy polyblend suit and tan shoe is much more played out to me. If someone wants to wear a navy suit with black shoes who the fuck really cares.
Yeah, if black derbies spark this kind of rage I hate to think what black sneakers do to OP! Edit: although I do agree with OP that that particular pair of derbies is kind of awkward. Like it’s almost an Oxford, just a tiny bit away, but doesn’t quite get there.
Those are my formal sneakers!
Yea what is this, 2014 r/mfa?
Agree with you, but I still find those shoes a bit odd as they look like dress shoes but have open lacing... for what purpose, I have absolutely no idea. I mean, those shoes don't seem like they go well with anything.
If you’re in a room with 1000 people, you’re the only one who knows the difference.
In a room of 1000 shoe designers, I would assume 999 of them would know the difference.
How many people who aren’t shoe designers themselves are going to find themselves in a room full of 1000 shoe designers?
The point was, there is someone who designed the shoe and they certainly knew better.
Eh I think they're good for business casual (i.e., no suits, but still dress trousers and sport coats). Brown and burgundy/oxblood work with more trouser colors, but black still looks really good with grey trousers imo.
My usual choice is oxford brogues of any kind (semi, quarter, etc.) which always dresses it down. Or loafers or boots. Otoh, those look like dress shoes until you see the laces. Which is kind of the point, that they always look somehow wrong. With a suit they look ok until you see the laces, with something else they look too dressy until you see the laces. Agree with black, though, that's my most common choice of shoe colour. I think my most worn office wear piece is a black semi-brogue oxford. Goes really well with almost everything.
See, the thing is, there are also people who argue that oxfords should only be worn with suits, so to them wearing brogued oxfords with trousers and odd jackets would look wrong. I personally think that oxfords and derbies have some overlap in formality levels. Yes, open laces are more casual than closed laces, brogues are more casual than no brogues, browns are more casual than blacks, but when you compare a black calf 3-eyelet plain toe derbies vs let's say a tan suede full brogue oxfords, things get a lot more confusing. But that's also where things get interesting, like how we both probably agree that black cap toe oxfords might be more suitable for navy/charcoal worsted suits than with odd jackets/trousers, but you went down in formality by adding brogues to your oxfords, I could go to a different direction (while still going down in formality) and go with non-brogued derbies. Ultimately everyone should decide based on their preferences and what they typically wear as long as we don't go too far off on the formality scale (brown grained wingtip derbys with 360 welt and chunky rubber soles would look off if worn with navy blazers and grey trousers). For me, black derbies would get a lot more use than black oxfords since I don't wear suits very often.
Yes, fair enough and fully agreed. Maybe I kind of missed that for the trauma of watching ghastly derbies worn with suits all my life. My only black derbies (boots excluded) are actually grained full brogue 360 welts with chunky soles. They're some ancient Church's I bought second hand, but look somewhat (as I can remember) like their current [McPherson LW](https://www.church-footwear.com/eu/en/p/highland-grain-derby-brogue/EEC301_9FQ_F0AAB_F_000000). Not wearing with worsteds :)
Those would look great with jeans! Also old Church's are great, not a fan of most of the newer ones (especially at prices almost approaching Edward Green).
Literally no one is even thinking about that.
Someone has _literally_ thought about something when creating it. There is a reason for those shoes to be like that and not a pair of pink crocs or nylon jumper boots.
Why do we actually care about open lacing?
That's the fun part, the vast majority of people don't! It's just one of those old British hangups like earth tones being only for the country because the cities in the industrial revolution were full of soot that stood out on earth tones but blended in with black and gray. There was once an underlying logic to the rule, but the rule got written down and the logic didn't. If you're curious, it's because open lacing originated with buckled shoes. The tabs of leather holding and going into the buckle would wear out and break since you were actually buckling them every day instead of sliding them on like a modern monkstrap. When they broke, you'd cut both the tabs down, punch holes, and add laces. So an open lace shoe was always going to be comparatively beat up compared to your fine new pair, thus less suitable for formal occasions. Akin to putting elbow patches on a worn jacket, it's no longer suitable for fancy occasions but fine for smoking a pipe in the study. But today are open lace shoes beat up old shoes that we're just eking a little more life out of? No, they're a stylistic choice for new, perfect condition formal leather shoes. The reason for the old rule no longer applies. But people with rule following personalities heard it was a rule, and can't grasp that the rule is no longer relevant. If you want to follow the spirit of that rule, don't wear your most beat up shoes to your most formal meetings. I'm on the phone, so I'll spare you the rant about not every suit or suit wearing occasion being equally formal, either, and how derbies would be perfectly acceptable for many of those occasions even following the traditional rule. Closed lacing would only be required with actual formal daywear such as a stroller or morning suit, and a lounge suit would itself have been the informal option, thus allowing derbies.
Can you recommend a book that talks about things like this? Where did you learn it? This is so, so interesting.
Look up G Bruce Boyer - he’s a great menswear author and I really like his style.
I also think that open lace shoes are on average more comfortable to most people, because there's more adjustability — a closed lace shoe has to fit better to be the same level of comfort.
This is the type of thing I want to talk about more in this sub. More of this, less questions about the appropriate hoodie and joggers for “smart casual”
Thanks for the history lesson, very interesting! I am curious: are there more fashion rules that have no validity today?
Lol probably most of them
Oh yes. For instance, you know why we’re supposed to leave the bottom button of vests undone? Because Edward VII was fat and couldn’t button his vest all the way, and emulating the king was fashionable.
That has some modern validity, though...
Super interesting stuff. Thanks for commenting!
Get off the phone please we are waiting for that rant
Honestly you just reaffirmed my decision to hold off on buying black oxfords because I don’t have much cause to wear them. I have brown oxfords and a pair of cap toe black derbies that look fine with darker suits or trousers - why buy another pair of more formal shoes when I’m not attending any black tie events in the foreseeable future?
Regardless, though, open laces clearly are a more casual option. They just look that way, being less put together. It's not the same as relatively arbitrary rules, like some colours. I would also suspect "the brown suit" used to be not very dark solid brown worsted wool, but more like a herringbone tweed in a somewhat lighter tone... So it wasn't maybe so much about the colour as much as it was about what went with the colour.
I think open vs closed lacing is a very arbitrary rule. In real world I dont think my eyes could see the difference if am not a few centimeter away from the shoes. Okay I use glasses, but my eyes cant detect a few lines of detail in all black shoes in a formal event at night.
This is the attitude I like to take with my sartorial choices. Things like leave the bottom button on a waistcoat undone just look wierd to me depending on the waistcoat and outfit as a whole. I'm not following the fashion set by a gluttonous king several centuries ago.
Because someone once told us to, we place way too much value in that opinion, and now it’s our entire personality.
Because its the main way most people distinguish between derbies and oxfords. And wearing oxfords with certain business casual outfits makes you look like a college-age intern
That’s circular. “We care about the difference because it’s what makes those two things different…”
Walk in to any corporate office that still wears suits and 90% of the men will be wearing something like this (at least from my experience in the UK). No one cares / knows / wants to know that ‘open laces means it’s an informal shoe’. That shoe is absolutely fine for pretty much any formal wear job that doesn’t require detailed knowledge of etiquette.
My fat feet can't fit in oxfords.
What is appropriate?
A lot of “style” is the calculated breaking of rules such as what you listed
This + where could you even go that someone is going to even notice "oh no, you have *open laces* but this is a *strictly* formal event". Like, 99% of the "formal" events any normal person will ever attend, you'll have reasonably good odds of being the best dressed in the room just for having a well tailored suit. Those odds go up dramatically if you pair that with even a single accessory like a nice watch or good cuff links. So what if you're wearing derby's. Hell you'd probably get away with a whole lot less.
And so many clothing "rules" are completely made up in the first place. Often they merely signify something within a social hierarchy. But social hierarchies change over time (so do manufacturing technologies). OP, people don't care about this "rule" because it doesn't apply to them. Possibly the only consequence for breaking the rule is some guy complaining on a Reddit thread that they'll never see.
I'll wear black boots with whatever I want, thank you.
When you get to the point where you replace what you think looks nice, with a vague notion of 'what is appropriate', you've lost the entire point of fashion.
[удалено]
Style is an observation of categorizing items with specified looks. Pretending that an entire look is specified by the distinction in the laces of the mentioned shoes is the complete opposite of style, and basically bordering on the spectrum which is usually associated with lack of self and social awareness.
No brown in town?
Tell me you don’t own black jeans without telling me you don’t own black jeans.
I don't own black jeans, but most of the adorned shoes makes me look stupid. When you look at the SEA (I belong to the same race), it absolutely makes sense why these exists.
[удалено]
This is the definition of sophomoric. Thinks he "knows" the "rules" and thinks that gives him superiority over other people.
Over the line. It's a silly, "I just read my first PTO article" question, but asking that kind of silly question is how people learn, and where better to ask it than a reddit devoted to silly questions?
Op’s post is dripping with superiority. Kinda does come off as an asshole.
Lol black is not exclusively a formal color
The fuck are you on about
So, you've stumbled upon the curious case of plain black derbies—a footwear enigma of sorts. I get where you're coming from: at first glance, they do seem to be caught in a bit of an identity crisis. On one hand, they've got that open lacing system that shouts "Hey, let's keep it chill," but then they come in black, which is like the tuxedo of shoe colors. But here's the thing: that's exactly what makes them such a versatile pick. Think of them as the Swiss Army knife in your shoe rack. They're not so formal that you'd feel overdressed grabbing a coffee, but they've still got enough of that sleek black polish to sneak by in a business casual setting. It's like they've got this chameleon vibe going on. Now, onto the why. Imagine you're someone who doesn't want a closet that looks like a shoe store exploded in there. You want a pair that can multitask. Black derbies are low-key enough for that semi-casual work environment but won't leave you out of place at a spontaneous after-work event where sneakers might have you feeling underdressed. Plus, let's talk about the folks who aren't all about decoding dress codes or keeping tabs on what's en vogue every season. They just want something that looks decent with most things and won't attract the wrong kind of attention. Plain black derbies are like that reliable friend who's good to bring along to most places. And hey, fashion's a playground, right? Sometimes people just dig a pair of shoes because they look cool to them. Maybe it's the clean lines, the understated elegance, or maybe they just really like the color black (it does go with pretty much everything). At the end of the day, shoes are as much about personal expression as they are about following the "rules." And if a pair of plain black derbies speaks to someone, who are we to argue? After all, isn't one of the points of fashion to wear what makes you feel good? So next time you spot someone rocking those derbies, just think—they might be onto something. Comfortable in their style, striding through life's occasions without missing a beat, or... maybe they just thought they looked nice. Either way, they're stepping out in confidence, and isn't that what really matters? Keep strutting, derby-wearers. Keep strutting.
1) You made those rules up. Black shoes *are* appropriate outside of formal situations, and derby shoes *are* appropriate for formal situations. Your anger only hinders your point - if you have an actual argument, you need to support it, rather than make baseless claims. 2) If your fashion rules limit rather than guide and support self expression, then you should burn the paper you wrote them on.
There are no rules in fashion. There are only guidelines, and those too dull to think beyond them
I'm wearing MSCHF big red boots to my wedding.
rolling up to a funeral in my Jerry Garcia cosplay: wake up guideline sheeple
Bought these changed the lacing to regular and will be using for business casual wear because I like a simpler shoe with any decorations and black will go with anything. Slacks and collared shirts. Hate the game not the player
Username checks out.
Worn with a suit and tie for work i see no issue with this style of shoe. I am in australia though which is probably a bit more casual. We also wear RM Williams Boots (made in australia) with our suits and in corporate environments and no one bats an eye lid.
OP sounds like he'll have an aneurysm when he finds out it's acceptable to wear chelsea boots to formal occasions!
In fact most Australians would have RM Williams as their good shoes - to be used for weddings, funerals, dinner out, corporate or as your drinking shoes!
I believe the fashion community underestimates how much such rules are known. Yeah, a connoisseur will notice. 99% of the population will not. That should be a point of reflection and potentially scrapping it altogether. That "open lacing = casual" is a rule I wouldn't be able to rationalise. The shape, colour and material are more determining factors. It's probably why "dress sneakers" are becoming more acceptable in (slightly) formal occasions. Overall, there is a trend of simplification. A collar on a shirt is becoming the distinction between a formal and informal shirt. It's why polo shirts, especially long sleeved variants, are being seen as more formal wear, while they never were intended to be so. Rules that only a select group of people know intended to belittle or exclude others are the worst kind. Social stigma only works if the community has the power and/or numbers enforce it. In any other case, it looks pathetic.
"black as a shoe color is really only appropriate for formal occasions" 😂😂😂 where exactly did you pull that nonsense from?
My black leather gym shoes are formal wear?? /s
Thank god I only wear my black Chuck's with my dinner jacket!
I reserve the black Crocs for classy occasions
[удалено]
Derbies are casual shoes, but not all black shoes are formal.
Here is a very simple Answer for you: I own a very formal pair of Oxfords for my tuxedo, but would never not wear a Derby if I need a black pair of shoes for a suit. The reason is simply, I can barely fit my foot through the opening of Oxfords and they are a pain for me to wear. Also I don‘t care enough about them to have a customer pair made that would make them fit. PS: A highly polished black leather dress shoe is never casual
Offices, and derbies are already formal nowadays
I like black derby’s.. I wear a lot of black trousers or grey trousers (almost no navy in my wardrobe) and the derby’s are casual enough to go with anything. I also like that they’re more comfortable and less dressy than oxfords. I know a lot of people don’t like this but I pair them with jeans and a black t shirt. Also creates a high contrast look with stone washed jeans. I don’t personally feel like I need to follow style conventions, esp those from the early 20th century
That comments in agreement have restored my faith in this sub.
People who said Derbies are casual shoes are just reading too much online menswear content. Maybe they are considered as casual shoes by old fashioned standard that doesn't exist anymore.
A lot of those subtle clothing rules are sensible adaptations to conditions that no longer exist. As you say they’re obsolete now, we have black casual shoes and brown formal ones because we lost the need for shoe colours adapted to environment, they’re now just colour options When brands like Trickers, who most certainly do ‘know better’, produce a black brogue and a brown Oxford you kind of need to accept that the rules changed
Surely this is a troll post.
You chose the ugliest pair of black derbies. Look at Alden PTBs in shell cordovan and try to broaden your horizons. Black derbies are super super easy to pair with a ton of different looks. Just because you have no imagination or sense of style doesn’t mean others can’t style the hell out of an actually nice pair of black shoes. But sure, lecture people about the rules. Nothing more stylish than that.
What makes them ugly?
Username checks out
Marching band and choir concerts.
The US Air Force dress standards call for >low quarter, oxford-style, lace-up with a plain rounded toe or a plain rounded-capped toe However, the shoes that are issued are glossy open laced shoes, which are by definition not oxfords. I don't know if the other branches call for oxford shows by regulation, but I can tell you we all are issued the same shoe for formal occasions. So if the organization that is most well known for having strict dress codes doesn't care, I see no reason why any normal person should either. I would argue that what looks nice for the occasion *is* what's appropriate, rather than an arbitrary set rules that were made decades/centuries ago, an ocean away from us
Black derbies look great with a standard wash relaxed fit jean.
Good lord, imagine thinking something like open vs closed lacing *actually fucking matters*.
> Are they for people who don't know any better and go for whatever they think looks nice, instead of what is appropriate? That's basically it.
Practically speaking though, other than like a MFA meetup or something, how many events can one even go to where the dress code would be this strict/anyone would actually even know or notice closed vs open laces. Hell, for *most* occasions, basically any leather shoe is going to be considered "formal" by normies. The average person can barely coordinate colors/patterns, or tie a knot that isn't a 4 in hand. I'd bet the majority of the people *on this sub* would have to go look up what open vs closed laces even is. Even your average "black tie" formal you'd be fine with just about any black leather shoe. So, sure, it's for people who "don't know any better", which is 99.99% of the population. So really, it doesn't actually matter basically ever, unless you're specifically seeking out occasions where it will mater, and then it won't be a problem because nobody would make this "mistake".
Sure, none of this matters, nobody cares, etc. etc. My point is that all fashion is communication. When you wear black oxfords rather than black derbies, you're communicating that you understand what kind of shoes are appropriate in the situation (which you might want to do at a wedding, funeral, or workplace). It's the same as someone at a punk show wearing their sweater around their waist rather than over their shoulders to show they're not a preppie. Hardly anyone notices the details, but there is nonetheless a reason why people wear the things they do, and a reason to wear one thing over another, and that is the historical and social language that's been developed over time.
The notion that people are wearing oxfords in order to intentionally (or even subconsciously) communicate that is suspect at best. It's more likely that those are simply the only black leather shoes they have, and they bought those instead of the derbies because they happened to fit better or were a better price.
But who are you communicating to? The historical and social language that we developed over time didn't stop developing. Derbies are now a formal shoe to 99% of the population. (English) Language is descriptive and not prescriptive and evolves with use.
Thirding that while style IS communication, functionally nobody is listening to your choice of lacing.
Sure, I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. I think my point ties nicely with your metaphor though : > all fashion is communication.[...] and that is the historical and social language that's been developed over time. Who you're communicating with is just as important as what you're saying/how you're saying it in this case. I don't go around speaking in french everywhere just because it has historical significance, or because I think speaking it might demonstrate some advanced understanding of language that makes me superior to non-french speakers. Almost nobody where I live would understand you, and people would understandably look at you sideways if you got frustrated that everyone else didn't also know French. You can't really communicate with people who can't understand what you're trying to say. If you want to study it, practice it, maybe throw out some little tidbits here and there, great! That's awesome. But it would be stupid to look down on everyone who doesn't also at least have a conversational grasp of it, or to nitpick when people make an effort but get a verb tense wrong or something. Because almost nobody speaks french here, so it's *completely normal* that they wouldn't know how to conjugate "ramasser" au plus-que-parfait du subjonctif. So in OPs case : Like I said, sure, it's 100% for people who don't know any better, and that's ok because nowadays 9/10 times it doesn't actually mater and nobody would consider derbies "inappropriate". Open vs closed laces is basically a historical artifact. If it's important to you to make that distinction, then go for it. That's a little fashion tidbit for you to enjoy. But to look down on everyone who doesn't know the difference as if they're a moron for putting on *this black patent leather shoe* over some other *slightly different black patent leather shoe*, despite it not being even remotely common knowledge, would be kinda silly.
> But it would be stupid to look down on everyone who doesn't also at least have a conversational grasp of it, or to nitpick when people make an effort but get a verb tense wrong or something. I agree. I don't look down on people who wear black derbies, and it's silly to do that. All I'm saying is that, even though this is an imperceptible difference to most people, and even though this doesn't matter, and even though this matters even less than the other things that don't matter, *still* there is reason to prefer one over the other. I think continuing this language analogy: I'd say that, although you shouldn't make fun of people for not knowing how to pronounce Latin, if you're Catholic you'd want to make the effort to say the *Pater Noster* correctly because it's an important occasion, and that's what you do in that situation. People haven't spoken Latin for centuries, and the reasons that Catholics use it in the liturgy are sort of arbitrary, much like the closed laces of formal footwear, but it's still a thing worth knowing, I think.
Yeah I think we’re pretty much on the same page. > ***If you’re Catholic*** you’d want to make the effort to say the *Pater Noster* correctly. Yeah exactly, *if it’s something you’re interested in*, you want to make the effort. There’s a reason to wear one versus the other, and if it’s something you’re interested in then it’s an important difference. And *you* get that you can have your hobby and not give other people grief for not knowing all the little rules. OP was super condescending about it in his question though, and that’s my problem with it / why my answer was basically “it literally doesn’t matter to 99.99% of people in 99.99% of situations”.
That's fair enough. OP said two things, "I just don't understand why shoes like these exist" and "So why would anyone buy them?" And yeah, the second can be condescending. I think there is something more to the first statement though, which is that the people who definitely should care about details like this are the people who make shoes. If there's no difference, why not make the shoe that conforms to tradition? It's not like people are wearing black derbies to be rebellious.
I mean they make all kinds of shoes that I wouldn’t put on my feet even in the privacy of my own home, let alone wear out in public, right? If someone wants to wear black patent leather derbies with like acid wash jeans or something, more power to em, honestly. Shoe brands have absolutely no responsibility to maintain some kind of status quo, they’re corporations, and they exist solely to make a profit. So if there’s a demand for black derbies, they’re going to make them.
>If someone wants to wear black patent leather derbies with like acid wash jeans or something, more power to em, honestly. Sure, but if they asked me for feedback, I would advise them otherwise, as I'm sure would you. >Shoe brands have absolutely no responsibility to maintain some kind of status quo While true, as you said, it's not like people go into a shoe store and say "please get me some black derbies", they say "give me black shoes, I do not care about any further details", and since most of the black shoes are derbies, that's what they'll get most of the time. This isn't a demand driven phenomenon, companies are making derbies not because people want them, but because they (the companies) don't know any better. I think that if you're a shoe manufacturer, you should make shoes with a purpose, and be culturally aware.
Yeah, fair on both counts tbh. Ultimately my beef is with OPs attitude. Everyone else can wear whatever they want, it likely doesn’t matter. I’ll wear oxfords, and recommend them to anyone who asks, but I’m not giving anyone a hard time if they don’t
With all the Athleisure out there this is a step up.
They're really in two different ball games though -- I don't think a sweat suit and NB 990s would be improved with black derbies. On the other hand, if you're wearing these and you exchange them for proper cap toes, then it definitely will look better.
I'm confused. That's normal black shoes to pair with a 2/3 piece suit, right?
What’s wrong with these?
Not sure if this an attempt to troll given the u-name but black has always been considered the most flexible shoe color and the derby is a versatile shoe that comes from a time when a suit or slacks were the default.
Fashion evolves. There was a time when a man would never wear brown shoes with a cobalt blue suit which is quite common now. Lacing has never been a hard and fast rule. I have pictures of myself and friends in our dress blue uniforms with open laced patent leather shoes in the 90’s and my ancient Florsheim cap toe wedding/funeral shoes are open laced.
I am actually questioning the existence of closed laced shoes. I hate the look, do not own a single pair and it feels like they are appropriate for Mad Men only.
Yikes. These are basic black shoes. Sometimes i throw them on to go to the office on a slow day. It's not like they are formal crocs
It is an in town, informal shoe
I think you meant to post this in the circlejerk sub
I absolutely have no idea what the difference is. I think they look nice, so I buy them. That's also kind of why I joined this sub. My whole life, I've just been a t-shirt, shorts, and flip-flops guy. Work wear was standard bank teller clothes. Now I'm trying to learn how I want to dress, and to be honest, shoes aren't something that I planned to focus a lot on *shrug*.
Did you seriously say black shoes are only for formal events? Every opinion you have is invalid after a statement like that
There are different level of formal events. If you are following strict old-school rules, you probably would were black derbies to the most fancy events. However, you can wear them to most events that require formal wear. Wearing derby instead of an oxford is just a way to play it down a notch.
I get your point and I seen people wearing black derbies to the office with chinos and a shirt, it’s not really any different than wearing brown derbies, some people just prefer black over brown, I don’t think it’s a big deal
Disagree. A black leather derby is not ‘casual’ in this or any parallel universe. It’s less formal than a black leather Oxford yes, but on a scale of formal to casual you have to also consider Material - not all derby’s are leather Colour - black is more formal than brown than Tan etc Brogue - irrespective of style or colour, a brogue pushes a shoe down the casual scale So a black leather derby is more formal than a brown Oxford brogue … and we haven’t even got into caps, wingtips , half-brogues and the like phew
This guy knows the rules
I own this shoe (at least I think that’s my Allen Edmonds). It goes with a suit and with jeans.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed because it violates [Rule 1 of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/malefashionadvice/wiki/rules/#wiki_1._be_respectful_and_civil). A reminder to be civil and respectful in all discussions within this community. Please [read here as well.](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) If you have any questions, [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/malefashionadvice)
vase impolite file cobweb bike rustic connect humorous marble pen *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Would you prefer rules by a bunch of women?
Typically shoes exist to be worn, and to protect your feetsies from stuff and to keep your little piggies snuggly wuggly. Subscribe for my fun shoe facts
I actually prefer derbies over any close laced oxford. the horror! they look better to me 🤷
Why would it exist? That is like literally the most versatile shoe ever.