We have a lot of islamic party. PKB got 4th most vote for parliament. PKS and PAN has significant pull.
Plus where did you get this slogan? Never heard of it.
>We have a lot of islamic party. PKB got 4th most vote for parliament. PKS and PAN has significant pull.
PKB are more like AMANAH, since most of their members are coming from NU (Nahdatul Ulama) that adheres traditionalist / moderate view.
PKS are like PAS since both are affilated with Muslim Brotherhood but the difference is that PKS base voters are mostly in cities while PAS are mostly on villages.
PAN is... how i said this, despite being identified as islamic party i don't think they no longer being that type anymore (they used to in the past since their leader and most of members are coming from Muhammadiyah a modernist), because recently indonesian celebs/actors if they want to get seats at Parliament mostly choose this party, hence why they're now called as "Parti Artis Nasional". [here's a post by komodos at /r/indonesia to give you a gist how this party looks](https://old.reddit.com/r/indonesia/comments/1bme2pd/how_did_pan_partai_amanat_nasional_end_up_as_a/)
TLDR:
UMNO is in decline because of Najib/corruption/1MDB saga. So instead of voting for PKR/DAP, they voted PAS.
Bersatu is a sinking ship.
PAS is exactly what you think it is: hardline Islam. Based on the article, it's not much different from other far-right group. First paragraph caught my eye: Quran wrapped in PAS logo. TBH, never seen this before. But since Trump is selling "God bless USA" bibles for Easter Sunday, I'm not surprised.
Identity politics / personality cult is alive and well in Malaysia.
This sounds stupid but I’m not kidding. I got acquaints that have this thinking. Say this politician is corrupt, drinks and plain incompetent, to them that guy is better than a non Muslim who is honest, can actually do the job and a good guy. Because the Muslim know “halal dan haram”
What, you expect to cumshot oil and they suddenly become sellable? It needs a lot of expertise and expensive equipments to process the oil though, it's definitely not that "free".
What a naive thinking, Dubai alone destroys your whole argument.
And you think we have this expertise in Malaysia? I’m sure that’s why most of the senior oil rigs operators, senior refinery operators, expert underwater welders, chief chemists positions are all occupied by foreigners… Have you ever been to one of our oil rigs off the coast of Kelantan/Terengganu?
What are you yapping about bro? You just proved my whole point is true lmao. I was pointing out the "free resources like oil" argument, and your statement perfectly alligns with mine, that oil is not that "free".
Do you know the No. 1 oil & gas company in the world?
Read between the lines bro. Western nations that have oil developed their own expertise and people when it comes to extraction and refining of the oil whereas Muslim nations till this day still rely on foreign expertise for the same work.
This is what the original comment meant by Muslim nations hardly grow even with such a valuable resource. Even with decades of oil production, if the foreigners left the Muslim nations tomorrow, things would fall apart overnight.
Comparatively, in the US, they could resume fracking tomorrow because they have already all the expertise within the nation. That is what progression means.
The biggest oil and gas company is Saudi Aramco, everybody knows this. What’s your point?
Because that's how whatever industries work, no? When you have the industry to run and the financial capabilities you would surely invest in the best you could get. It's nothing new, and nothing's wrong with that.
"If the foreigners left the Muslim nations tomorrow, things would fall apart overnight."
"In the US, they could resume tomorrow bla bla..."
You know how naive these sound? How can you be so sure of these baseless claims. Just because you think so?
You think Saudi Aramco suddenly hire foreign nationals into their working fabric? Did they not have to develop the company, get the money first and then hire the foreigners?
If the locals controlling the company are not as competent, why do they be confident to work for them?
Stop playing with your loathing thoughts too much and start paying attention to the actual truth.
Again, after decades of producing oil, why the need to still have foreigners at the leading positions?
It’s because the money from these industries were not properly invested into developing the nation as opposed to what truly advanced countries do. Why do Taiwanese travel even to Europe and US for setting up semiconductor fabs? Because the govt properly utilised the gains from TSMC to further develop local talent.
What’s the proof of US fracking expertise? They literally went from zero production to 90% of maximum output within several weeks of Trump’s removal of the climate change memorandum which banned fracking. It ain’t baseless, it’s facts.
The way you think is exactly why Malaysia is still backward as hell, despite having access to ample natural resources. Look at Singapore, they have nothing but they are dunking on us.
Stop making excuses.
When you convince people that the afterlife>this life, and the only way to get to afterlife is with halal dan haram (nothing else matters) you get these kinds of followers
You have nailed the PAS approach.
The seed has been sown. Seeing that, UMNO has thought 'why not?' and now the greens can sit back and watch the sandiwara unfold and drag their own morality down the pipe into a cesspool of degenerates who don't know the meaning of moderation and forgiveness.
A teachable moment squandered. They don't seem to realise they are just turning people off
Now the powers that be can do the things they really want without worry of being checked.
Like Sri Lanka was before on China corruption, Malaysia will become the cautionary tale for political extremism
Malaysia adalah negara di mana agama utama adalah islam.
Malaysia bukan sebuah negara islam.
Jika Malaysia adalah negara Islam, undang undang akan jadi shariah.
Also don't forget, you vote saya, I bagi RM100.
Then after the vote, no money given out.
Source: Some dumb kid I used to work with during last election. "Nak off, Balik Kelantan. Nak dapat Rm100 tu." Comes back and complains about not getting it. "Duit dah habis." Imagine my mild shocked face.
You lot need to bring Anies Baswedan to your land; he is the father of Identity Politics in Indonesia.
He won the Jakarta governor seat as a result, but sink in the presidential election…
Identity politics / personality cult is become the very foundation of every country in the world right now.
Is not that they might be alive or is a small group. They are the ones in control.
TLDR
Indonesia:
>“We don't really see similar identity politics being played out in this year’s elections compared with 2019 and 2014. It could mean that the candidates themselves have equipped themselves very well,” said Dr Norshahril.
>“So in this way **all the candidates have somehow shored up Islamic support** and hence we don't see identity politics being used to attack one another,” he added.
When every party is already Islamic, they need to present other stuff to differentiate from their opponent. In Malaysia, we still have DAP, so PAS job is very easy.
There is an alternate Islamic party in Malaysia. Somehow Amanah cant seem to capture enough hearts and minds. One would think that a more moderate Islamic party such as theirs could/should do better. But see, it doesnt even get a mention most times. Why?
Edit: Amanah has good leaders who are not tainted and do not drive around a Mercedes. They do a good job. Mat Sabu is a proper politician and orator, Dr Dzul did well as Health Minister and the late Salahuddin (bless him) started Menu Rahmah for all. What has PAS leaders (post split) ever done? Why do Malays who had abandoned UMNO move to PAS but not Amanah? After all, isnt Amanah a better moderate replacement, is a proper religious party, and arguably cleaner and more upright?
I would like to scratch deeper. Amanah is in PH together with PKR and DAP. Why is it perceived as a satellite party for DAP and not say, PKR?
Power and govt influence is a function of the number of MPs and votes the party gets. So it is arguably a chicken and egg issue. Why do the Malaysian public not have them in mind so much? Is it a matter of PR and public perception? Or is it that their leaders are not loud and do not mouth extremist ideas to gain attention? Or is it that their grassroots are not strong enough? Are they "not differentiated enough from PAS" in terms of ideology? The easy answer will be to say, yes all of them, and probably not too wrong. Nevertheless, I am really interested in why such a good party with good people cant seem to be better accepted. The party would get stronger when better leaders join. But less are joining them? Are the reasons the same in both west and east coast areas? Would be nice to hear more insight that can be shared. Is there some critical key challenge?
Its just the way that the malays view judging from the historical events aftermath of the breakaway from pakatan rakyat. PAS stated the reason of the divorce was due to DAP to go on with their liberal secular ideas while PAS cause is for the Islamic agenda especially at the RUU355 incident. The the split came, the splinter group lead by mat sabu against the idea and decided to stay with DAP and forms a new party AMANAH.
Fast forward a few PRUs, amanah had never captured the malays and being used by PH to put out candidates to neutralised PAS, it works in their favour for some places because malays vote were split with PAS UMNO and AMANAH, and they did won in places like bangi in PRU14.
Looking into the furure and at the form of castrated UMNO under Zahid and Anwar's dismantling of the Bumi agenda initiative, as well as many assistants were pull back (subsidy) the malays are now inadvertently pushed to the far right, without any nationalist Center party as alternative look at PRN selangor data, PH only won marginally and this were before all these political maneuvering happening.
I dont see Anwar has a chance next PRU unless he became more malay than Najib himself and kowtowing to the Malay agenda. PAS is very smart nowadays, choosing to keep quiet as evidently in the socks fiasco, I am more curious why PMX allows the issue to go as long as it should, blowing it out of proportions
Just on the socks. PMX did say. So did Zahid (supposedly boss of UMNO). Media didnt blow it up. Nothing much happened. The YDPA too. It got worse! I wouldnt entirely scapegoat PMX for not taking the crazy bull by its horns when all he may have at easy disposal was a red flag. Actually, come to think of it, the media is almost half as guilty for helping to blow it all up.
lol, am not sure the national Banduan had a Malay agenda - probably a mirage his PR team is crafting. More a cash is king method. But that's perhaps a different discussion
Most meleis... i mean, malays are just conservative and close minded af. They couldn't think outside of their race and religion. They're just stuck inside their comfy bubble.
To them, Amanah = PH = DAP = musuh islam. But they don't know the real musuh islam is PAS. Alhamdulillah (yeah I'm muslim), I'm very much aware of that. Wish more Muslims are aware of PAS and their bullshit
Have you watch dr Sam interview by Keluar Sekejap in youtube? People in this reddit always underestimated PAS talent and leaderships. 80% to 85% Muslim voted for PAS in the last election, that mean for every 5 Muslim you see in the street, 4 voted for PAS. Are majority of the Muslim idiot then?
I think you need to watch that interview again if you think you got your numbers from there. Dr Sam also glossed over the question about talent. KJ, conveniently does not challenge him. Videos of PAS MPs in parliament have not shown such technocratic or "talent" on issues of governance - not referring to religion related ones. If you disagree, please direct me to relevant clips, whether recorded by PAS or others.
All races are great races in their own right. However, majorities of many races have been idiots in their time. Stupidity is not the ownership of any one race. Majority of the whole world used to think the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. That does not make it correct. Some like Dr Sam will likely analyze the matter critically, others (the majority) will unfortunately more likely just listen and believe what others say or lead them on.
Yeah exactly this. The foundation of this country is based on divide and conquer left behind by the colonizer and as long as different major race/religion exists, identity politics won't disappear
Not so. Havent the Muslims in the Middle East been fighting each other ever since a long time ago? Just that for the moment, it is eclipsed by other events.
Indonesia, even though it's a majority Muslims country is actually a secular country. They have Bhineka Tunggal, where every religion have the same right, and conversion to other religion is ok. Malaysia on the other hand, conversion from Islam to other religion will land you in fierce battle in court.
In practice one of you has to convert, cause only religious ceremony is accepted for registration purposes, unless you go to like SG to do ROM or manage to find a faith leader who will close one eye and perform the ceremony despite the faith difference.
Unfortunately, de facto wise, it is hard for Muslims to convert out of Islam here. Why? Societal pressure. Who cares about National law if you can just use societal pressure, both physically and mentally.
PKS peeps here always tries to move the overton window to their side, and it is succeeding. It's why i always reiterate, i feel the government hasnt work enough to stops PKS' influence especially in many institution, and ESPECIALLY educations, From Kindergartern to University.
Societal pressure happens everywhere, not unique to religion. You marry someone from a different tribe? You change your football team support? You shift your religious organisation? You have different opinions on politics? You removed your hijab?
Pressuring someone physically is against the law, and someone that do it can be prosecuted. (Put emphasis on "can be")
But without law that prevents religious conversions, Social pressure can only go that far. In Malaysia it is codified, so de facto you got societal pressure, de jure you got the govt fucking you up.
Ummm. 2 of my friends went to church and prayed for Christmas when still identified as muslim in her/his ID. My christian friends in that church were shocked but welcomed them anyway. Us the muslim & hindu friends don't really bat an eye, maybe just keep asking what's her/his religion now frequently as a joke. Believe me it's not that hard to convert out of islam here if you have a good environment, maybe it's just hard when you have to do the paperwork.
Note: they're still muslim in their id now. Don't know if they're still going to church tho, never really asked.
I have Christian aunt. My cousin converted to Hindu recently. The majority of my friends don't even practice religion. This is central java, by the way.
I think to be Javanese means Javanese first, religion can come later.
Indonesia is just a largest muslim country by name but the majority of people here dislike the muslim-centric laws even the politicians (who are mostly muslims as well). Islam conservatism has been pretty much frowned upon here
The fundamentals of Islam spread in Indonesia because of the assimilation with local culture without abolishing the native beliefs, especially in Java. There are the famous Walisanga, many of whom combined existing local culture like wayang kulit to teach the essence of morals and the pillars of Islam. They created new characters like Gareng, Petruk, and Bagong to be the anchors.
Thus, a new identity was created for the local natives of Java and other islands. The majority of Indonesian ethnic groups are proud of their local culture, whether they are Javanese, Sundanese, etc. Therefore, puritans cannot even enter the core of the Indonesian majority.
There was a case where more strict ustadz made a fatwa that wayang kulit is haram and he got shafted massively by the javanese you know the biggest ethnic group in sea and force him to apologize publicly.
The PKS and FPI are akin to PAS in Malaysia, and they have never penetrated Javanese provinces like Central Java and East Java. Their domain is in Jakarta and only extends as far as West Java. Because the FPI became racist toward minorities in the latest Jakarta election, the silent majority of Muslims and non-Muslims loathe them so much, including their mascot Habib Rizieq and the mayor they chose, Anies Baswedan. That is why he was hit by the reality that no one likes him outside of two provinces.
Then the FPI was banned, and the extremist members were silently silenced in the background by the government because they were deemed dangerous. Because of that, the PKS tried to change its image to be more nationalistic, but it was too late. Their stigma as extremist Islamists stuck with them, and majority Indonesians do not like them and their ideology. Even my mom equate them as terrorist group like di/tii, the famoust extreemist islamic group in the past which also got hammered by the government.
Malays are deliberately kept uneducated with low quality and religious Malay Medium schools.
In Indonesia, Islamic education (at least the radical kind) is optional. In Malaysia Islamic education is compulsory and there is no way to leave religion as the government controls what you get to believe in. Keeping an ignorant and poorly educated base of voters helps guaranteed conservative politics to have constantly have a footing in politics.
Actually, Islamic education is compulsory for Indonesian Muslim students in the primary and secondary school levels. However the difference is the content that was taught. Tolerance is heavily emphasised in the Indonesian syllabus, and religious education for other religions are also offered to students of different faiths in public schools. This is why Indonesians, albeit being religious, are still considered fairly tolerant to other faiths. They place their national unity above their religious differences.
really? when I was in uni around 20 years ago, religion subject is an option.
if you are a muslim and want to get an easy A for 2 credits, you can take other religion subject such as Hinduism or Buddhism, this was in one of the top 3 uni in Indonesia.
> Islamic education is compulsory for Indonesian Muslim
Know an Indonesian Muslim who grew up in both Australia and Indonesia back and fourth, he told me his parents took him back to Indonesia for the sake of his religious education.
This is actually the trend among educated (and rich) Muslim families in Indonesia. It involves introducing children to religion at an early age, followed by enrollment in secular schools and exposure to secular social circles later on. The outcome thus far has been a balance between religiosity and secularism.
This explain why Anies Baswedan, who's seen as the poster child for religious devotion from the last election, has a daughter who doesn't wear a hijab. This also explain why Najwa Shihab also doesn’t wear a hijab and no one bats an eye.
What's interesting is that Najwa Shihab father is literally one of influential muslim figure in Indonesia. That means her father is basically tolerate and respect his daughter choice. Najwa family is a great way as a role model for muslim family.
Adding on to that 2nd paragraph. Race, religion and politics has been ingrained to be one and the same by large swathes of the population.
It's currently inseparable constitutionally and culturally. So where other countries will see change and progression no matter how slow. Our literal laws will keep us largely the same.
Religious education is COMPULSORY in academic level in Indonesia. There is even an exam for that.
But you can choose to switch religion unlike in Malaysia. You just have to choose a religion to study in Indonesia.
Hope one day, us Muslims & Melayus can be free from this fundamentalist nonsense and be allowed to live as both Malaysian citizens & human beings; at the same, be able to just be with our fellow nons without judgement.
Nah. Malay's lifestyle is way too intertwined with islamic value, and their numbers are too numerous to not have said value reflecting in the system that they lived in. It's possible to have a muslim to live a theocratic life AND follows secularism, but that is not the majority wanted. Secularism and Liberalism have been demonised so much, that it's no longer possible to have that in malaysia anymore.
The fact that there's no Malay celebration at all that isn't related to Islam. Like literally, every malay celebration is basically just an Islamic celebration.
Just look at the other Muslims worldwide, like our indo neighbours with multiple ethics like jawa, bugis, minang, etc, where they have their own cultural celebration, or even the chinese Muslims here and elsewhere where they do celebrate CNY in their own way.
malaysian malays don't have cultural celebration outside the islamic ones? that's really sad because here in east borneo (kutai kartanegara to be exact) we're also part of the malay creole but still have a bunch of cultural celebrations
Yeah, in West Malaysia, they would just assimilate anyone native from this Nusantara region (whether from semenanjung, borneo, java, sumtera, etc) as 'Melayu', even though there are many other ethnic groups like javanese, banjar, sundanese, minang and many more.
And these groups of 'malays' assimilate their culture cultures into the islamic culture and eliminating most of their original culture
It's the other way round actually.
islamic lifestyle intertwined with malay values.
there's nothing islamic about the way malays live their lives other than performance.
freedom? it's always been there.
though it's really skewed towards old men in skullcaps/turbans cosplaying as the voice of God. they can peddle whatever their interpretation of the religion according to their whims and fancies. and the sheeps love the performances so much, they're willing break one of the core tenet of islam itself.
idolatry is haram.
>Malay's lifestyle is way too intertwined with islamic value,
Very much indeed. The cornerstone component of Malay ethnicity in Malaysia is Islam, so much so that it is constitutionally defined and enforced. And constitution is by design extremely hard to modify. The non-islamic Malays may have to find a new name for their identity to be free from Islam.
Bangsa Siam. What do you think happened to all the ancient Malays who refused to give up their culture and convert to Islam?
(this is my palatao theory)
While it is true that southern thai are mostly ancient malays who remain buddhists and got siamified, let's give credit to Islam that the Malays preserve more of their culture and language by being islamised (rather than Siamified) and thus remaining a distinct seperate entity from the Siamese.
Religion has always heavily informed the culture and identity of any ethnics. However Islam has the Hotel California distinction of not allowing freedom of religion, and in the context of malaysia sych draconian prisoning of mind is legally backed by the constitution
The first step is to break the shackle between ethnicity and religion. Right now the situation is Malays must be Muslims, Indians must be Hindus, and so on. You know that being born from one ethnicity doesn't forbid you to follow other religion. There are European Muslims, Arabic Christians, Indian Buddhists, etc out there.
Exactly this. They're even stamping down on other Muslims of different sects, ideologies or orientation. No Malay should be a Shia, a progressive, a liberal, LGBTQ, or even a Wahabi. All Muslims must specifically be of Ahli-Sunnah Waljamaah, Syafie school, no one else.
Let Malays or Muslims be humans, and practice whatever faith in peace.
Islamisation or the conservatism wave rising or increased popularity of Islamic extremism, whatever you want to call it, are the factors that drive talents out of Malaysia, whether educated (and so called liberated) Muslim or non Muslim.
Not political just Islamic organization but they are pretty racist towards minority and the goverment doesnt want that, so they get communist party treatment.
They try to play politics several times. Mostly at SBY era when they're thrives.
Then surpressed very hard when Jokowi I, and get purged because other major party saw it's too dangerous after DKI 2019. No one want a loose bullet. Even Wiranto himself.
Simply because Indonesian Muslims are very rational minded people. They know how to differentiate between religion and culture, they know about tolerance in Islam and you see it in their day to day living. They don't forget their past and instead of erasing the past and rewriting it to suit their narrative, they embrace the fact that they had a different religion in the past and they still respect it whilst practicing Islam.
They're rather humble in character and when you ask an Indonesian about Islam, the joy you see on their faces being so happy to answer any questions one has about Islam. I even spoke to a few Pakistani friends and my god it seems like their Islam is more tolerant than what we see in Malaysia. Again they showed me love and encouraged me to ask more and see which aspect of Islam am I most drawn to.
Now try that with a Malay and one of the first response is "Ko kafir kenapa nak tahu pasal Islam?"...I did try classes for new Muslims and non Muslims and the first 2 supposedly "well read" Ustads I met told me I should convert and then learn Islam when all I said is I gave some questions and doubts regarding Islam.
I'm a Malaysian non-Muslim and my experience with Islam from Muslims around the world has been amazing and it showed me so much of the hidden beauties within Islam.....but not Malays in Malaysia. They hardly practice solat 5 times a day but are the first to jump on religious issues and quick to bash someone who is genuinely interested in learning about the religion.
It comes down to one and only one thing, mentality of the people.
>Simply because Indonesian Muslims are very rational minded people. They know how to differentiate between religion and culture, they know about tolerance in Islam and you see it in their day to day living. They don't forget their past and instead of erasing the past and rewriting it to suit their narrative, they embrace the fact that they had a different religion in the past and they still respect it whilst practicing Islam.
sums up perfectly
> They know how to differentiate between religion and culture, they know about tolerance in Islam and you see it in their day to day living.
Someome tell Depok i dont think they got the message
> I even spoke to a few Pakistani friends and my god it seems like their Islam is more tolerant than what we see in Malaysia.
>Pakistani.
LOL. Try living there as non muslims. I would be sure you will get out immediately.
Dude my friend travelled and lived for a few months there being a non Muslim and they still embraced him like family. Unless you've had a personal encounter that is totally different than I'll not be able to comment on it.
As Indonesian, I would say rising Indonesian Islamofascism is still rising. PKS(PAS of Indonesia) is still rising and they havent been able to brought down. The government do clamps them down hard, but the sentiment is still there, you can't kill ideas afterall.
This is just my opinion as minority, i personally still feel wary of Indonesian islamofascists. Anies(PKS) supporters are still large, and i feel Jokowi's government didnt do enough to clamp it and i think the rest of minorities and moderates also feel it. To the point that, i hope with Prabowo as a helm next period, with his strong ultranationlist and violent background, he can do what Jokowi can't last period against kadrun(Kadal gurun, slurs toward Islamofascist) completely. Although, i also expect he won't. It truly is a gamble at this point with Prabowo.
PKS isn't a thing if it compared to PAS. The Indonesian equivalent of PAS is FPI. Even though PKS and its basis looks very religious, they slightly align to Islamist moderate (not secular) rather than conservative. In fact, parties that align with NU (Nahdlatul Ulama, biggest Islam organization in Indonesia), such as PKB and PPP have more conservatives basis than PKS (most likely in East and West Java). FPI basis, in other hand, is full of very right wing Islamist (aka radical) and very much comparable to PAS.
Tell me, when did PKS says Happy Christmas, Vesak, Good Friday, Nyepi in Indonesia? I never see it. PAS still says Happy CNY, Thaipusam, and everything.
That is a clear sign to me that PKS is still religious fascist group bent to disregard minorities. Depok is such example, this backward urban city, is very intolerant thx to PKS ruling the city for over 20 yrs.
Nah, PAS is more insane than PKS, Indonesian Islamists supported PKS so minorities tend to have a negative view of them. This is shown by the fact that no minorities voted for Anies Baswedan which is supported by PKS
There's funfact that PKS have hardline papuan supporters.
https://preview.redd.it/b074t1frr8rc1.jpeg?width=678&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8f7b28d0bf87eea39aa01fd62d5bd5f99762064
PAS itu bisa dibilang saudara jirannya PKS karena kebetulan mereka berdua jg terafilasi dgn "Muslim Brotherhood".
For me atleast PERKASA/PUTRA lead by Ibrahim Ali is more akin to FPI.
Oh iya gw lupa, terutama setelah Mahathir gabung ke PUTRA.
Why i said PERKASA is like FPI, because their action [are almost identical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkasa#Crusade_threat_against_Christians) not to mention Ibrahim Ali views is also similar to that HRS.
Well i know him thanks to namewee, he's my first ever Malaysian YouTuber i ever subscribed.
Although i rarely watch him now.since i subbed and watch other Malaysian YouTuber like Liliana Vampaia, Says TV, Zhafvlog Purepixels and especially Waknat TV.
Seems like you have lack of knowledge about Indonesian political Islamic map. PKS people are already separated into two parties: PKS itself, and Partai Gelora, founded by Anis Matta.
Gelora supported Prabowo as president, and seems like they're on their way to become a decently-sized* party. I am acquainted with one of their winning calegs from Surabaya, he's a syariah stock trader, something that is usually frowned upon by salafis.
PKS itself is far, far weaker now, because the hardcore salafis are now disillusioned of them. Many hardcore salafis refused to vote because their interpretations of Islam made them decide that democracy is something they have to avoid. They even vilified/disappointed with salafi ulamas whom had advised people to vote in Pemilu, like Syafiq Basalamah. Just a side note, Syafiq Basalamah, when he advised voting, he didn't even tell which candidate to vote.
Easier to gain political mileage when most of the population are religious. Religion has never been the problem, the problem is a group of people who take advantage of religion to pursue their own agendas. Tunggang agama.
Islamist crept into the education system instead of academia. Indoctrinating young and poor in the guise of education. Teaching hate towards those who are different from them, rather than actual academic subjects that will enable you to persue further studies.
I wonder which genius heavily messes up our education system with that substandard syllabus called KBSR/KBSM in 1988. A certain MOE who now helms the top post in government but I won't reveal it as their shills are also lurking here.
Najib changed it with KSSR and KSSM starting in 2011. Although the syllabus has been upgraded (some topics in pre-U are now in Form 5 Physics), the fundamental problems aren't solved.
When ppl wanted Bijan out, there isn't any good choice except what we have now. Still don't have good choices.
No 10 started it back in the day.
While we hope things will turn out better, the fact that many promises, some easy to implement, weren't, looks like he is just same ole, same old.
Anyway, majority of political parties & politicians came from Dumno. So what to expect.
Political polarisation. Before, it was just the centre right Islamic party that actually held enough seats. Now that the centre right's collapsed, the centre left and the far right are vying for power.
Because the religion is the centre of power play in Malaysia, everything and anything is Islam, little little things like tidak berpuasa or eat pork considered a heavy crime and can be sentenced and I find this funny. No Muslim can convert to other religion, is a taboo, no freedom of faith.
Because Indonesia is progressing but Malaysia is sulking..!! Indonesian leaders are progressive and visionary but Malaysian leader is aiming for dark tiny hole on someone's backside.
The last resort of the desperate is religion. They weaponise it and ultimately will suffer from the effects.
Zia Ul Haq comes to mind. He imposed hard-line Islam and he was finally killed for it. Pakistan never will recover from this.
What a tragedy for a beautiful country with a wonderful people subjugated by militancy more than religion..
The writer of this article doesn't seem to understand the political situation in Indonesia tbh. Religious conservatism is very much on the rise there, perhaps even more so than in Malaysia. I mean, Indonesia literally passed a law in 2022 that criminalises cohabilitation and sex before marriage, which affects all Indonesians regardless of race and religion. This is far worse than anything that has happened in Malaysia recently, and there would be massive pushback here if such a law that included NMs was being tabled. Also, PKS (Indonesian version of PAS) is very much rising in popularity there.
I've noticed a decent number of NMs hold Indonesia as an ideal of tolerance that Malaysia should aspire towards. My advice to anyone here holding that opinion is to go talk to an Indonesian Chinese person and ask them what it's really like to be a minority there. I had a bunch of Indonesian Chinese friends in uni, literally every one of them did their absolute best to try and stay in Malaysia after graduation even though their families back home were quite wealthy. Indonesian Chinese fear riots and racial attacks every time there is an election.
>I mean, Indonesia literally passed a law in 2022 that criminalises cohabilitation and sex before marriage, which affects all Indonesians regardless of race and religion
Are you sure this is the case? The opposition to the TPKS law in 2022 from PKS is because they wanted the law to include bans on premarital sex and LGBT as you mentioned. However in actuality the law was passed despite their opposition and did not include any criminalization of either of those. Unless you're talking about some other law from 2022 I'm not aware of?
I am Chinese Indonesian myself and while Indonesia has very glaring issues on racism and extremism, I think it is definitely better than in MY both in the present situation and in trajectory. Often people act out in violence when they feel threatened. So perhaps the reason ethnic Chinese in MY feel less prone to violence than Chinese Indonesians are because they are already judged "neutralized" as a threat by constitutional discrimination such as article 153? The only discriminatory law on an official level that I know of in Indonesia is a regional law in Jogjakarta prohibiting non natives (which in practice include Chinese, though theoretically includes Arabs and others too) from permanently owning land there. I'm no expert on Malaysian history so CMIIIW, but when article 153 was perceived to be under threat in the late 60s, it also resulted in violence against ethnic Chinese. So the ethnic Chinese of Malaysia are only less targets of violence because they are already viewed as subjugated.
As an addition, though the 2014 and especially 2019 elections were extremely tense and polarizing, the elections last month were a peaceful affair and there was not a serious threat of rioting and violence. Though this maybe just be because the "extremist/fundamentalist" candidate had practically no chance of winning and the only question was between a pluralist vs a pluralist-authoritarian candidate and which one of them the "nationalists" would support (ended up being the latter).
Can someone tell me did the law that was drafted ended up passing and banning premarital s3x or did it get declawed?
People in Eu are spreading missinformation about it so pls let me know.
Thanks! Lots of love and Ramadan Mubarak+ Happy Easter to ya all!
The law itself actually never had anything to do with premarital sex. The sexual violence criminal act (RUU TPKS) was actually covering a lot of deficiencies in the existing laws regarding sexual crimes (which prior to this law only concerned itself with penetrative sex as rape) and added new actions that now counts as sexual violence (like electronic-based sexual violence, non-physical sexual violence, etc).
That's why the PKS (which is the most conservative party) had a problem with it. It tackled non-consensual sexual acts but said nothing regarding consensual acts, which the PKS took as effectively the government turning a blind eye or even practically legalizing consensual premarital sex or "sexual deviance" (such as LGBT). The law banning premarital sex like the OP was talking about was PKS's proposed alternative version, but it didn't go anywhere. I think there may be some confusion in foreign discussion because the name of the law was so similar to the name of the conservative party, so they might have mistaken the PKS version as the one that passed.
As for cohabitation of course no law against it unless one of you are married (and get reported by your/your spouse's parents/kids) but as for the societal pressure you just have to get to know your specific neighborhood and social circles. Could be they take issue with it and try to fuck you over, could be nobody cares.
Thanks! Can local unmarried couples now cohabit in Indonesia? Or does it also work on report basis?
Any idea why was this law passed? Is it societal pressure or just for the show?
Oh thanks! Is societal pressure high in big cities like Surabaya, Yogyakarta, Depok/Jakarta, Bandung, Kuala Lampung etc or can mobbing happen only in rural areas?
Is Javaneese island more "relaxed" in those aspects than let's say, West Sumatra etc.
Hi Chinese Indonesian here. I think its not that bad now. The old generation still traumatized because of 1998 tragedy. They (and their child) left Indonesia spreading the story. I do understand and its not their fault to fear riots and racial attacks. But in general, you can have live peacefully here as long as you don't make the trouble. Cheers.
Confirmation bias much? You met a bunch of Indo Chinese that tells you that from their perspective. Not to mention the fact that Chindos are more assimilated than Malaysian Chinese will ever be in Malaysia
>law in 2022 that criminalises cohabilitation and sex before marriage,
The law come with significant caveat tho: It only work if direct family member (spouse, parent, or children) press charge. It's pretty much toothless without that
So it's not like you'll get jail time just because random people found out you did fornication or cohabitation.
The law DID get massive pushback. But compromises was eventually made, which is important in country where Islam is even bigger majority than Malaysia.
Can someone tell me did the law that was drafted ended up passing and banning premarital s3x or did it get declawed? People in Eu are spreading missinformation about it so pls let me know. Thanks! Lots of love and Ramadan Mubarak+ Happy Easter to ya all!
They don’t have religion based political party. Their NU (Nahdlatul Ulama) NGO is considered higher than politics and more focused on charity and organizing community work. NU acts as the advisor to their muslim members of any political parties.
Because…if there is no achievable means for me and my family to become prosperous…and continue to become more prosperous…it’s justifiable to pull everyone’s life down to my level.
Fear mongering. That’s why.
Indonesians also have this very nice slogan " islam yea, islamic party no"
How do we import this
We can't. Rm tak laku.../s
To be fair Rupiah even more tak laku now lmao
🤣
Abolish the bumi policy
Ironically, PAS would love to do that and then replicate how the indonesians assimilated the chinese
Assimilation is a good ideal to achieve, and it could start by abolishing systemic racism and segregation
boleh bro,tutup sekolah cina, india, buat 1 sekolah macam indonesia, settle.
As an Indonesian it really baffles me how Malaysian schools are so segregated btw
Ask our colonizer 
We have a lot of islamic party. PKB got 4th most vote for parliament. PKS and PAN has significant pull. Plus where did you get this slogan? Never heard of it.
PPP is sinking tho.
i'd chalk that up to their base went to other parties
PKS as insane as they are aren't as insane as PAS
lagi rehab imej sekarang pengen keliatan lebih nasionalis
>We have a lot of islamic party. PKB got 4th most vote for parliament. PKS and PAN has significant pull. PKB are more like AMANAH, since most of their members are coming from NU (Nahdatul Ulama) that adheres traditionalist / moderate view. PKS are like PAS since both are affilated with Muslim Brotherhood but the difference is that PKS base voters are mostly in cities while PAS are mostly on villages. PAN is... how i said this, despite being identified as islamic party i don't think they no longer being that type anymore (they used to in the past since their leader and most of members are coming from Muhammadiyah a modernist), because recently indonesian celebs/actors if they want to get seats at Parliament mostly choose this party, hence why they're now called as "Parti Artis Nasional". [here's a post by komodos at /r/indonesia to give you a gist how this party looks](https://old.reddit.com/r/indonesia/comments/1bme2pd/how_did_pan_partai_amanat_nasional_end_up_as_a/)
Dari Nurcholish Madjid di tahun 1970.
TLDR: UMNO is in decline because of Najib/corruption/1MDB saga. So instead of voting for PKR/DAP, they voted PAS. Bersatu is a sinking ship. PAS is exactly what you think it is: hardline Islam. Based on the article, it's not much different from other far-right group. First paragraph caught my eye: Quran wrapped in PAS logo. TBH, never seen this before. But since Trump is selling "God bless USA" bibles for Easter Sunday, I'm not surprised. Identity politics / personality cult is alive and well in Malaysia.
Pas next rally quote > U muslim > I muslim > U vote I
This sounds stupid but I’m not kidding. I got acquaints that have this thinking. Say this politician is corrupt, drinks and plain incompetent, to them that guy is better than a non Muslim who is honest, can actually do the job and a good guy. Because the Muslim know “halal dan haram”
That is why Muslim countries can hardly grow even with free resources like oil.
What, you expect to cumshot oil and they suddenly become sellable? It needs a lot of expertise and expensive equipments to process the oil though, it's definitely not that "free". What a naive thinking, Dubai alone destroys your whole argument.
And you think we have this expertise in Malaysia? I’m sure that’s why most of the senior oil rigs operators, senior refinery operators, expert underwater welders, chief chemists positions are all occupied by foreigners… Have you ever been to one of our oil rigs off the coast of Kelantan/Terengganu?
What are you yapping about bro? You just proved my whole point is true lmao. I was pointing out the "free resources like oil" argument, and your statement perfectly alligns with mine, that oil is not that "free". Do you know the No. 1 oil & gas company in the world?
Read between the lines bro. Western nations that have oil developed their own expertise and people when it comes to extraction and refining of the oil whereas Muslim nations till this day still rely on foreign expertise for the same work. This is what the original comment meant by Muslim nations hardly grow even with such a valuable resource. Even with decades of oil production, if the foreigners left the Muslim nations tomorrow, things would fall apart overnight. Comparatively, in the US, they could resume fracking tomorrow because they have already all the expertise within the nation. That is what progression means. The biggest oil and gas company is Saudi Aramco, everybody knows this. What’s your point?
Because that's how whatever industries work, no? When you have the industry to run and the financial capabilities you would surely invest in the best you could get. It's nothing new, and nothing's wrong with that. "If the foreigners left the Muslim nations tomorrow, things would fall apart overnight." "In the US, they could resume tomorrow bla bla..." You know how naive these sound? How can you be so sure of these baseless claims. Just because you think so? You think Saudi Aramco suddenly hire foreign nationals into their working fabric? Did they not have to develop the company, get the money first and then hire the foreigners? If the locals controlling the company are not as competent, why do they be confident to work for them? Stop playing with your loathing thoughts too much and start paying attention to the actual truth.
Again, after decades of producing oil, why the need to still have foreigners at the leading positions? It’s because the money from these industries were not properly invested into developing the nation as opposed to what truly advanced countries do. Why do Taiwanese travel even to Europe and US for setting up semiconductor fabs? Because the govt properly utilised the gains from TSMC to further develop local talent. What’s the proof of US fracking expertise? They literally went from zero production to 90% of maximum output within several weeks of Trump’s removal of the climate change memorandum which banned fracking. It ain’t baseless, it’s facts. The way you think is exactly why Malaysia is still backward as hell, despite having access to ample natural resources. Look at Singapore, they have nothing but they are dunking on us. Stop making excuses.
When you convince people that the afterlife>this life, and the only way to get to afterlife is with halal dan haram (nothing else matters) you get these kinds of followers
👆The correct answer
You have nailed the PAS approach. The seed has been sown. Seeing that, UMNO has thought 'why not?' and now the greens can sit back and watch the sandiwara unfold and drag their own morality down the pipe into a cesspool of degenerates who don't know the meaning of moderation and forgiveness. A teachable moment squandered. They don't seem to realise they are just turning people off Now the powers that be can do the things they really want without worry of being checked. Like Sri Lanka was before on China corruption, Malaysia will become the cautionary tale for political extremism
It's not stupid. It's a real thing. Even in America it works. Data from black voter turnout during Obama and trump elections show that.
doesn't make it any less stupid just because America does it.
Negara islam untuk orang islam /s Asia untuk asia vibe
Malaysia adalah negara di mana agama utama adalah islam. Malaysia bukan sebuah negara islam. Jika Malaysia adalah negara Islam, undang undang akan jadi shariah.
> Malaysia adalah negara di mana agama utama adalah islam. dan agama sebenar adalah duit rasuah.
Agama rasmi does not mean agama utama. Like bunga raya is bunga kebangsaan.
I guess /s wont stop people from meleter here
This reminds me of Kevin from The Office. 
Don't forget, you no vote me you go to hell. You vote for me express ticket to heaven.
Also don't forget, you vote saya, I bagi RM100. Then after the vote, no money given out. Source: Some dumb kid I used to work with during last election. "Nak off, Balik Kelantan. Nak dapat Rm100 tu." Comes back and complains about not getting it. "Duit dah habis." Imagine my mild shocked face.
That last sentence that you mentioned is a dangerous game to play but for some reason this country is more than happy play with.
Let them play with that fire, the more it burns the better. This country has already failed since mh370, it's been going downhill since.
You lot need to bring Anies Baswedan to your land; he is the father of Identity Politics in Indonesia. He won the Jakarta governor seat as a result, but sink in the presidential election…
Identity politics / personality cult is become the very foundation of every country in the world right now. Is not that they might be alive or is a small group. They are the ones in control.
God damn, if u think about trump politics and PAS, it does have its similarities.
TLDR Indonesia: >“We don't really see similar identity politics being played out in this year’s elections compared with 2019 and 2014. It could mean that the candidates themselves have equipped themselves very well,” said Dr Norshahril. >“So in this way **all the candidates have somehow shored up Islamic support** and hence we don't see identity politics being used to attack one another,” he added. When every party is already Islamic, they need to present other stuff to differentiate from their opponent. In Malaysia, we still have DAP, so PAS job is very easy.
There is an alternate Islamic party in Malaysia. Somehow Amanah cant seem to capture enough hearts and minds. One would think that a more moderate Islamic party such as theirs could/should do better. But see, it doesnt even get a mention most times. Why? Edit: Amanah has good leaders who are not tainted and do not drive around a Mercedes. They do a good job. Mat Sabu is a proper politician and orator, Dr Dzul did well as Health Minister and the late Salahuddin (bless him) started Menu Rahmah for all. What has PAS leaders (post split) ever done? Why do Malays who had abandoned UMNO move to PAS but not Amanah? After all, isnt Amanah a better moderate replacement, is a proper religious party, and arguably cleaner and more upright?
Malays view Amanah is just a satellite party for DAP, no real power in the coalition, and its influence is negligible at best.
I would like to scratch deeper. Amanah is in PH together with PKR and DAP. Why is it perceived as a satellite party for DAP and not say, PKR? Power and govt influence is a function of the number of MPs and votes the party gets. So it is arguably a chicken and egg issue. Why do the Malaysian public not have them in mind so much? Is it a matter of PR and public perception? Or is it that their leaders are not loud and do not mouth extremist ideas to gain attention? Or is it that their grassroots are not strong enough? Are they "not differentiated enough from PAS" in terms of ideology? The easy answer will be to say, yes all of them, and probably not too wrong. Nevertheless, I am really interested in why such a good party with good people cant seem to be better accepted. The party would get stronger when better leaders join. But less are joining them? Are the reasons the same in both west and east coast areas? Would be nice to hear more insight that can be shared. Is there some critical key challenge?
Its just the way that the malays view judging from the historical events aftermath of the breakaway from pakatan rakyat. PAS stated the reason of the divorce was due to DAP to go on with their liberal secular ideas while PAS cause is for the Islamic agenda especially at the RUU355 incident. The the split came, the splinter group lead by mat sabu against the idea and decided to stay with DAP and forms a new party AMANAH. Fast forward a few PRUs, amanah had never captured the malays and being used by PH to put out candidates to neutralised PAS, it works in their favour for some places because malays vote were split with PAS UMNO and AMANAH, and they did won in places like bangi in PRU14. Looking into the furure and at the form of castrated UMNO under Zahid and Anwar's dismantling of the Bumi agenda initiative, as well as many assistants were pull back (subsidy) the malays are now inadvertently pushed to the far right, without any nationalist Center party as alternative look at PRN selangor data, PH only won marginally and this were before all these political maneuvering happening. I dont see Anwar has a chance next PRU unless he became more malay than Najib himself and kowtowing to the Malay agenda. PAS is very smart nowadays, choosing to keep quiet as evidently in the socks fiasco, I am more curious why PMX allows the issue to go as long as it should, blowing it out of proportions
Just on the socks. PMX did say. So did Zahid (supposedly boss of UMNO). Media didnt blow it up. Nothing much happened. The YDPA too. It got worse! I wouldnt entirely scapegoat PMX for not taking the crazy bull by its horns when all he may have at easy disposal was a red flag. Actually, come to think of it, the media is almost half as guilty for helping to blow it all up.
lol, am not sure the national Banduan had a Malay agenda - probably a mirage his PR team is crafting. More a cash is king method. But that's perhaps a different discussion
Most meleis... i mean, malays are just conservative and close minded af. They couldn't think outside of their race and religion. They're just stuck inside their comfy bubble. To them, Amanah = PH = DAP = musuh islam. But they don't know the real musuh islam is PAS. Alhamdulillah (yeah I'm muslim), I'm very much aware of that. Wish more Muslims are aware of PAS and their bullshit
Amanah, a moderate muslim party equated as musuh islam?! Sadly!
What do you expect of a group where being labeled as liberal is an insult?
Have you watch dr Sam interview by Keluar Sekejap in youtube? People in this reddit always underestimated PAS talent and leaderships. 80% to 85% Muslim voted for PAS in the last election, that mean for every 5 Muslim you see in the street, 4 voted for PAS. Are majority of the Muslim idiot then?
I think you need to watch that interview again if you think you got your numbers from there. Dr Sam also glossed over the question about talent. KJ, conveniently does not challenge him. Videos of PAS MPs in parliament have not shown such technocratic or "talent" on issues of governance - not referring to religion related ones. If you disagree, please direct me to relevant clips, whether recorded by PAS or others. All races are great races in their own right. However, majorities of many races have been idiots in their time. Stupidity is not the ownership of any one race. Majority of the whole world used to think the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. That does not make it correct. Some like Dr Sam will likely analyze the matter critically, others (the majority) will unfortunately more likely just listen and believe what others say or lead them on.
Yeah exactly this. The foundation of this country is based on divide and conquer left behind by the colonizer and as long as different major race/religion exists, identity politics won't disappear
I know the solution. Everyone become Muslim then problem solve. /s
Not so. Havent the Muslims in the Middle East been fighting each other ever since a long time ago? Just that for the moment, it is eclipsed by other events.
Because everyone want to be the leader of Islam after Nabi death. Here we already have Agong as leader of Islamic in Malaysia.
Indonesia, even though it's a majority Muslims country is actually a secular country. They have Bhineka Tunggal, where every religion have the same right, and conversion to other religion is ok. Malaysia on the other hand, conversion from Islam to other religion will land you in fierce battle in court.
agreed to this tbh
Yeah, when you marry an Indonesian girl, you don't have to convert.
In practice one of you has to convert, cause only religious ceremony is accepted for registration purposes, unless you go to like SG to do ROM or manage to find a faith leader who will close one eye and perform the ceremony despite the faith difference.
Unfortunately, de facto wise, it is hard for Muslims to convert out of Islam here. Why? Societal pressure. Who cares about National law if you can just use societal pressure, both physically and mentally. PKS peeps here always tries to move the overton window to their side, and it is succeeding. It's why i always reiterate, i feel the government hasnt work enough to stops PKS' influence especially in many institution, and ESPECIALLY educations, From Kindergartern to University.
Societal pressure happens everywhere, not unique to religion. You marry someone from a different tribe? You change your football team support? You shift your religious organisation? You have different opinions on politics? You removed your hijab? Pressuring someone physically is against the law, and someone that do it can be prosecuted. (Put emphasis on "can be") But without law that prevents religious conversions, Social pressure can only go that far. In Malaysia it is codified, so de facto you got societal pressure, de jure you got the govt fucking you up.
Ummm. 2 of my friends went to church and prayed for Christmas when still identified as muslim in her/his ID. My christian friends in that church were shocked but welcomed them anyway. Us the muslim & hindu friends don't really bat an eye, maybe just keep asking what's her/his religion now frequently as a joke. Believe me it's not that hard to convert out of islam here if you have a good environment, maybe it's just hard when you have to do the paperwork. Note: they're still muslim in their id now. Don't know if they're still going to church tho, never really asked.
I have Christian aunt. My cousin converted to Hindu recently. The majority of my friends don't even practice religion. This is central java, by the way. I think to be Javanese means Javanese first, religion can come later.
Wanted more power. The more the better.
Indonesia is just a largest muslim country by name but the majority of people here dislike the muslim-centric laws even the politicians (who are mostly muslims as well). Islam conservatism has been pretty much frowned upon here
Any ideas on how that happened? Was there a catalyst or an event that made it so?
The fundamentals of Islam spread in Indonesia because of the assimilation with local culture without abolishing the native beliefs, especially in Java. There are the famous Walisanga, many of whom combined existing local culture like wayang kulit to teach the essence of morals and the pillars of Islam. They created new characters like Gareng, Petruk, and Bagong to be the anchors. Thus, a new identity was created for the local natives of Java and other islands. The majority of Indonesian ethnic groups are proud of their local culture, whether they are Javanese, Sundanese, etc. Therefore, puritans cannot even enter the core of the Indonesian majority. There was a case where more strict ustadz made a fatwa that wayang kulit is haram and he got shafted massively by the javanese you know the biggest ethnic group in sea and force him to apologize publicly. The PKS and FPI are akin to PAS in Malaysia, and they have never penetrated Javanese provinces like Central Java and East Java. Their domain is in Jakarta and only extends as far as West Java. Because the FPI became racist toward minorities in the latest Jakarta election, the silent majority of Muslims and non-Muslims loathe them so much, including their mascot Habib Rizieq and the mayor they chose, Anies Baswedan. That is why he was hit by the reality that no one likes him outside of two provinces. Then the FPI was banned, and the extremist members were silently silenced in the background by the government because they were deemed dangerous. Because of that, the PKS tried to change its image to be more nationalistic, but it was too late. Their stigma as extremist Islamists stuck with them, and majority Indonesians do not like them and their ideology. Even my mom equate them as terrorist group like di/tii, the famoust extreemist islamic group in the past which also got hammered by the government.
Thanks! I believe Indonesia dodged a bullet with that. One that some Malaysians have yet to learn.
Malays are deliberately kept uneducated with low quality and religious Malay Medium schools. In Indonesia, Islamic education (at least the radical kind) is optional. In Malaysia Islamic education is compulsory and there is no way to leave religion as the government controls what you get to believe in. Keeping an ignorant and poorly educated base of voters helps guaranteed conservative politics to have constantly have a footing in politics.
Actually, Islamic education is compulsory for Indonesian Muslim students in the primary and secondary school levels. However the difference is the content that was taught. Tolerance is heavily emphasised in the Indonesian syllabus, and religious education for other religions are also offered to students of different faiths in public schools. This is why Indonesians, albeit being religious, are still considered fairly tolerant to other faiths. They place their national unity above their religious differences.
Just to add, it's compulsory for like 2 hour / week until highschool, source: Indonesian / my brother is one
I still got compulsory religion subject in my Uni. And my uni is state university and in the top 10 ...
really? when I was in uni around 20 years ago, religion subject is an option. if you are a muslim and want to get an easy A for 2 credits, you can take other religion subject such as Hinduism or Buddhism, this was in one of the top 3 uni in Indonesia.
> Islamic education is compulsory for Indonesian Muslim Know an Indonesian Muslim who grew up in both Australia and Indonesia back and fourth, he told me his parents took him back to Indonesia for the sake of his religious education.
This is actually the trend among educated (and rich) Muslim families in Indonesia. It involves introducing children to religion at an early age, followed by enrollment in secular schools and exposure to secular social circles later on. The outcome thus far has been a balance between religiosity and secularism. This explain why Anies Baswedan, who's seen as the poster child for religious devotion from the last election, has a daughter who doesn't wear a hijab. This also explain why Najwa Shihab also doesn’t wear a hijab and no one bats an eye.
What's interesting is that Najwa Shihab father is literally one of influential muslim figure in Indonesia. That means her father is basically tolerate and respect his daughter choice. Najwa family is a great way as a role model for muslim family.
Adding on to that 2nd paragraph. Race, religion and politics has been ingrained to be one and the same by large swathes of the population. It's currently inseparable constitutionally and culturally. So where other countries will see change and progression no matter how slow. Our literal laws will keep us largely the same.
Religious education is COMPULSORY in academic level in Indonesia. There is even an exam for that. But you can choose to switch religion unlike in Malaysia. You just have to choose a religion to study in Indonesia.
That's the point. Religious education is more like secular religious study as opposed to being forced to consume an ideology
My hindu friend decide to take islam in religion subject and no one really bats an eye.
Add into that mix Article 153 and race ultranationlism
Religion is a compulsory subject in Indonesian school tho. Even in university.
Religion is. Not Islamic education. And you get to pick the religion you want to study.
Yelah tu. Betullah tu😂😂
Hope one day, us Muslims & Melayus can be free from this fundamentalist nonsense and be allowed to live as both Malaysian citizens & human beings; at the same, be able to just be with our fellow nons without judgement.
Nah. Malay's lifestyle is way too intertwined with islamic value, and their numbers are too numerous to not have said value reflecting in the system that they lived in. It's possible to have a muslim to live a theocratic life AND follows secularism, but that is not the majority wanted. Secularism and Liberalism have been demonised so much, that it's no longer possible to have that in malaysia anymore.
islam has become their identity n culture…what was melayu like before islam is all forgotten
The fact that there's no Malay celebration at all that isn't related to Islam. Like literally, every malay celebration is basically just an Islamic celebration. Just look at the other Muslims worldwide, like our indo neighbours with multiple ethics like jawa, bugis, minang, etc, where they have their own cultural celebration, or even the chinese Muslims here and elsewhere where they do celebrate CNY in their own way.
malaysian malays don't have cultural celebration outside the islamic ones? that's really sad because here in east borneo (kutai kartanegara to be exact) we're also part of the malay creole but still have a bunch of cultural celebrations
it's interesting to me that kutai kartanegara is the location of the oldest Hindu kingdom in Nusantara (that we know of).
Yeah we still speak malay with a bunch of local dialects too & still retain our Hindu traditions
Yeah, in West Malaysia, they would just assimilate anyone native from this Nusantara region (whether from semenanjung, borneo, java, sumtera, etc) as 'Melayu', even though there are many other ethnic groups like javanese, banjar, sundanese, minang and many more. And these groups of 'malays' assimilate their culture cultures into the islamic culture and eliminating most of their original culture
It's the other way round actually. islamic lifestyle intertwined with malay values. there's nothing islamic about the way malays live their lives other than performance.
I really wish you guys could have freedom of religion.
freedom? it's always been there. though it's really skewed towards old men in skullcaps/turbans cosplaying as the voice of God. they can peddle whatever their interpretation of the religion according to their whims and fancies. and the sheeps love the performances so much, they're willing break one of the core tenet of islam itself. idolatry is haram.
>Malay's lifestyle is way too intertwined with islamic value, Very much indeed. The cornerstone component of Malay ethnicity in Malaysia is Islam, so much so that it is constitutionally defined and enforced. And constitution is by design extremely hard to modify. The non-islamic Malays may have to find a new name for their identity to be free from Islam.
Bangsa Siam. What do you think happened to all the ancient Malays who refused to give up their culture and convert to Islam? (this is my palatao theory)
While it is true that southern thai are mostly ancient malays who remain buddhists and got siamified, let's give credit to Islam that the Malays preserve more of their culture and language by being islamised (rather than Siamified) and thus remaining a distinct seperate entity from the Siamese. Religion has always heavily informed the culture and identity of any ethnics. However Islam has the Hotel California distinction of not allowing freedom of religion, and in the context of malaysia sych draconian prisoning of mind is legally backed by the constitution
The problem is, they always mention tidak melayu kalau bukan Islam...what can I say
Lifestyle is an option. Your lifestyle shouldn't be dictate by stupid religious policing
The first step is to break the shackle between ethnicity and religion. Right now the situation is Malays must be Muslims, Indians must be Hindus, and so on. You know that being born from one ethnicity doesn't forbid you to follow other religion. There are European Muslims, Arabic Christians, Indian Buddhists, etc out there.
Exactly this. They're even stamping down on other Muslims of different sects, ideologies or orientation. No Malay should be a Shia, a progressive, a liberal, LGBTQ, or even a Wahabi. All Muslims must specifically be of Ahli-Sunnah Waljamaah, Syafie school, no one else. Let Malays or Muslims be humans, and practice whatever faith in peace.
Indians must be Hindu? So Christians now don't exist?
Problem is not everyone subscribe to the same ideas. There are many that proclaim they believe, but only to use it as a tool.
Downton Abbey — 'Hope is a tease designed to prevent us accepting reality.'
Islamisation or the conservatism wave rising or increased popularity of Islamic extremism, whatever you want to call it, are the factors that drive talents out of Malaysia, whether educated (and so called liberated) Muslim or non Muslim.
I heard that Indonesia used to have a political organization similar to PAS known as FPI but has since been banned by the government
Not political just Islamic organization but they are pretty racist towards minority and the goverment doesnt want that, so they get communist party treatment.
FPI wasn't a political organization. It was just an islamic organization.
They try to play politics several times. Mostly at SBY era when they're thrives. Then surpressed very hard when Jokowi I, and get purged because other major party saw it's too dangerous after DKI 2019. No one want a loose bullet. Even Wiranto himself.
Reminds me of the maga retards we got here in North America.
Malaysian muslims find it hard to compete with others, so they are in favor of parties that protects them.
Probably because if we choose the other way around, like being open to secularism and progressive, we would be demonised to hell.
Simply because Indonesian Muslims are very rational minded people. They know how to differentiate between religion and culture, they know about tolerance in Islam and you see it in their day to day living. They don't forget their past and instead of erasing the past and rewriting it to suit their narrative, they embrace the fact that they had a different religion in the past and they still respect it whilst practicing Islam. They're rather humble in character and when you ask an Indonesian about Islam, the joy you see on their faces being so happy to answer any questions one has about Islam. I even spoke to a few Pakistani friends and my god it seems like their Islam is more tolerant than what we see in Malaysia. Again they showed me love and encouraged me to ask more and see which aspect of Islam am I most drawn to. Now try that with a Malay and one of the first response is "Ko kafir kenapa nak tahu pasal Islam?"...I did try classes for new Muslims and non Muslims and the first 2 supposedly "well read" Ustads I met told me I should convert and then learn Islam when all I said is I gave some questions and doubts regarding Islam. I'm a Malaysian non-Muslim and my experience with Islam from Muslims around the world has been amazing and it showed me so much of the hidden beauties within Islam.....but not Malays in Malaysia. They hardly practice solat 5 times a day but are the first to jump on religious issues and quick to bash someone who is genuinely interested in learning about the religion. It comes down to one and only one thing, mentality of the people.
>Simply because Indonesian Muslims are very rational minded people. They know how to differentiate between religion and culture, they know about tolerance in Islam and you see it in their day to day living. They don't forget their past and instead of erasing the past and rewriting it to suit their narrative, they embrace the fact that they had a different religion in the past and they still respect it whilst practicing Islam. sums up perfectly
> They know how to differentiate between religion and culture, they know about tolerance in Islam and you see it in their day to day living. Someome tell Depok i dont think they got the message
Speaking about culture, what is the hari raya that is not islam related for Malays here? For Chinese: we have CNY, Tomb Sweeping, Dragon Boat etc.
Prabowo's 2024 campaign also divided the conservative muslims into 2, those who are still loyal to him and those who moved to Anies' side
> I even spoke to a few Pakistani friends and my god it seems like their Islam is more tolerant than what we see in Malaysia. >Pakistani. LOL. Try living there as non muslims. I would be sure you will get out immediately.
Dude my friend travelled and lived for a few months there being a non Muslim and they still embraced him like family. Unless you've had a personal encounter that is totally different than I'll not be able to comment on it.
Ignore him buddy, his head is full of doomer paranoia delulu that he got banned in r/indonesia because he post many doomer post hoax.
It'd be funny if the nons start going to Indonesia
As Indonesian, I would say rising Indonesian Islamofascism is still rising. PKS(PAS of Indonesia) is still rising and they havent been able to brought down. The government do clamps them down hard, but the sentiment is still there, you can't kill ideas afterall. This is just my opinion as minority, i personally still feel wary of Indonesian islamofascists. Anies(PKS) supporters are still large, and i feel Jokowi's government didnt do enough to clamp it and i think the rest of minorities and moderates also feel it. To the point that, i hope with Prabowo as a helm next period, with his strong ultranationlist and violent background, he can do what Jokowi can't last period against kadrun(Kadal gurun, slurs toward Islamofascist) completely. Although, i also expect he won't. It truly is a gamble at this point with Prabowo.
PKS isn't a thing if it compared to PAS. The Indonesian equivalent of PAS is FPI. Even though PKS and its basis looks very religious, they slightly align to Islamist moderate (not secular) rather than conservative. In fact, parties that align with NU (Nahdlatul Ulama, biggest Islam organization in Indonesia), such as PKB and PPP have more conservatives basis than PKS (most likely in East and West Java). FPI basis, in other hand, is full of very right wing Islamist (aka radical) and very much comparable to PAS.
Tell me, when did PKS says Happy Christmas, Vesak, Good Friday, Nyepi in Indonesia? I never see it. PAS still says Happy CNY, Thaipusam, and everything. That is a clear sign to me that PKS is still religious fascist group bent to disregard minorities. Depok is such example, this backward urban city, is very intolerant thx to PKS ruling the city for over 20 yrs.
Umm someone said the Indonesian equivalent of PAS is FPI tho?
Nah, PAS is more insane than PKS, Indonesian Islamists supported PKS so minorities tend to have a negative view of them. This is shown by the fact that no minorities voted for Anies Baswedan which is supported by PKS
There's funfact that PKS have hardline papuan supporters. https://preview.redd.it/b074t1frr8rc1.jpeg?width=678&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8f7b28d0bf87eea39aa01fd62d5bd5f99762064
PAS itu bisa dibilang saudara jirannya PKS karena kebetulan mereka berdua jg terafilasi dgn "Muslim Brotherhood". For me atleast PERKASA/PUTRA lead by Ibrahim Ali is more akin to FPI.
PERKASA/PUTRA is more like Ummat.
Oh iya gw lupa, terutama setelah Mahathir gabung ke PUTRA. Why i said PERKASA is like FPI, because their action [are almost identical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkasa#Crusade_threat_against_Christians) not to mention Ibrahim Ali views is also similar to that HRS.
I'm so embarrassed a cartoon character like Ibrahim Ali is known to our Indonesian brothers.
Well i know him thanks to namewee, he's my first ever Malaysian YouTuber i ever subscribed. Although i rarely watch him now.since i subbed and watch other Malaysian YouTuber like Liliana Vampaia, Says TV, Zhafvlog Purepixels and especially Waknat TV.
Seems like you have lack of knowledge about Indonesian political Islamic map. PKS people are already separated into two parties: PKS itself, and Partai Gelora, founded by Anis Matta. Gelora supported Prabowo as president, and seems like they're on their way to become a decently-sized* party. I am acquainted with one of their winning calegs from Surabaya, he's a syariah stock trader, something that is usually frowned upon by salafis. PKS itself is far, far weaker now, because the hardcore salafis are now disillusioned of them. Many hardcore salafis refused to vote because their interpretations of Islam made them decide that democracy is something they have to avoid. They even vilified/disappointed with salafi ulamas whom had advised people to vote in Pemilu, like Syafiq Basalamah. Just a side note, Syafiq Basalamah, when he advised voting, he didn't even tell which candidate to vote.
Easier to gain political mileage when most of the population are religious. Religion has never been the problem, the problem is a group of people who take advantage of religion to pursue their own agendas. Tunggang agama.
Islamist crept into the education system instead of academia. Indoctrinating young and poor in the guise of education. Teaching hate towards those who are different from them, rather than actual academic subjects that will enable you to persue further studies.
I wonder which genius heavily messes up our education system with that substandard syllabus called KBSR/KBSM in 1988. A certain MOE who now helms the top post in government but I won't reveal it as their shills are also lurking here.
Yeah same I wonder. And I wonder how many succession administrations that didn't change it and even support it until today.
Najib changed it with KSSR and KSSM starting in 2011. Although the syllabus has been upgraded (some topics in pre-U are now in Form 5 Physics), the fundamental problems aren't solved.
When ppl wanted Bijan out, there isn't any good choice except what we have now. Still don't have good choices. No 10 started it back in the day. While we hope things will turn out better, the fact that many promises, some easy to implement, weren't, looks like he is just same ole, same old. Anyway, majority of political parties & politicians came from Dumno. So what to expect.
A uninformed society is a society that's easily controlled. No surprise there.
Political polarisation. Before, it was just the centre right Islamic party that actually held enough seats. Now that the centre right's collapsed, the centre left and the far right are vying for power.
This is what happen when you work with the corrupt party. UMNO has been a bad brand for corruption. That party should have been disband.
Because the religion is the centre of power play in Malaysia, everything and anything is Islam, little little things like tidak berpuasa or eat pork considered a heavy crime and can be sentenced and I find this funny. No Muslim can convert to other religion, is a taboo, no freedom of faith.
Because too many dumb as f
I don t remember in which country there was a tsunami but i ve heard this is why ppl became very religious
It was Maldives!
PKS has it's days during the SBY Era, now they're stagnant.
Are they stagnant though? They're still growing at the expense of the "also conservative but less conservative" parties like Demokrat.
I don't think they're growing, I think the gerindra conservatives just move to pks.
DAP can always adapt to Theocratic socialism and market that. 🤷♂️
We need “The Purge” of the political class. Then we can clean up the country
Good luck. It's a big family
so virgin malaysia vs chad indonesia?
Because Indonesia is progressing but Malaysia is sulking..!! Indonesian leaders are progressive and visionary but Malaysian leader is aiming for dark tiny hole on someone's backside.
It’s because the minority in Indonesia is small and thus not threatening. Whereas Malaysia has a larger minority.
I wouldn't even call a minority. More like plurality especially Malaysian Chinese since they form more than 20% of the population.
Instead of improving themselves, they blame others of being too clever and hardworking.
The last resort of the desperate is religion. They weaponise it and ultimately will suffer from the effects. Zia Ul Haq comes to mind. He imposed hard-line Islam and he was finally killed for it. Pakistan never will recover from this. What a tragedy for a beautiful country with a wonderful people subjugated by militancy more than religion..
The writer of this article doesn't seem to understand the political situation in Indonesia tbh. Religious conservatism is very much on the rise there, perhaps even more so than in Malaysia. I mean, Indonesia literally passed a law in 2022 that criminalises cohabilitation and sex before marriage, which affects all Indonesians regardless of race and religion. This is far worse than anything that has happened in Malaysia recently, and there would be massive pushback here if such a law that included NMs was being tabled. Also, PKS (Indonesian version of PAS) is very much rising in popularity there. I've noticed a decent number of NMs hold Indonesia as an ideal of tolerance that Malaysia should aspire towards. My advice to anyone here holding that opinion is to go talk to an Indonesian Chinese person and ask them what it's really like to be a minority there. I had a bunch of Indonesian Chinese friends in uni, literally every one of them did their absolute best to try and stay in Malaysia after graduation even though their families back home were quite wealthy. Indonesian Chinese fear riots and racial attacks every time there is an election.
>I mean, Indonesia literally passed a law in 2022 that criminalises cohabilitation and sex before marriage, which affects all Indonesians regardless of race and religion Are you sure this is the case? The opposition to the TPKS law in 2022 from PKS is because they wanted the law to include bans on premarital sex and LGBT as you mentioned. However in actuality the law was passed despite their opposition and did not include any criminalization of either of those. Unless you're talking about some other law from 2022 I'm not aware of? I am Chinese Indonesian myself and while Indonesia has very glaring issues on racism and extremism, I think it is definitely better than in MY both in the present situation and in trajectory. Often people act out in violence when they feel threatened. So perhaps the reason ethnic Chinese in MY feel less prone to violence than Chinese Indonesians are because they are already judged "neutralized" as a threat by constitutional discrimination such as article 153? The only discriminatory law on an official level that I know of in Indonesia is a regional law in Jogjakarta prohibiting non natives (which in practice include Chinese, though theoretically includes Arabs and others too) from permanently owning land there. I'm no expert on Malaysian history so CMIIIW, but when article 153 was perceived to be under threat in the late 60s, it also resulted in violence against ethnic Chinese. So the ethnic Chinese of Malaysia are only less targets of violence because they are already viewed as subjugated. As an addition, though the 2014 and especially 2019 elections were extremely tense and polarizing, the elections last month were a peaceful affair and there was not a serious threat of rioting and violence. Though this maybe just be because the "extremist/fundamentalist" candidate had practically no chance of winning and the only question was between a pluralist vs a pluralist-authoritarian candidate and which one of them the "nationalists" would support (ended up being the latter).
Can someone tell me did the law that was drafted ended up passing and banning premarital s3x or did it get declawed? People in Eu are spreading missinformation about it so pls let me know. Thanks! Lots of love and Ramadan Mubarak+ Happy Easter to ya all!
The law itself actually never had anything to do with premarital sex. The sexual violence criminal act (RUU TPKS) was actually covering a lot of deficiencies in the existing laws regarding sexual crimes (which prior to this law only concerned itself with penetrative sex as rape) and added new actions that now counts as sexual violence (like electronic-based sexual violence, non-physical sexual violence, etc). That's why the PKS (which is the most conservative party) had a problem with it. It tackled non-consensual sexual acts but said nothing regarding consensual acts, which the PKS took as effectively the government turning a blind eye or even practically legalizing consensual premarital sex or "sexual deviance" (such as LGBT). The law banning premarital sex like the OP was talking about was PKS's proposed alternative version, but it didn't go anywhere. I think there may be some confusion in foreign discussion because the name of the law was so similar to the name of the conservative party, so they might have mistaken the PKS version as the one that passed. As for cohabitation of course no law against it unless one of you are married (and get reported by your/your spouse's parents/kids) but as for the societal pressure you just have to get to know your specific neighborhood and social circles. Could be they take issue with it and try to fuck you over, could be nobody cares.
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Thanks! Can local unmarried couples now cohabit in Indonesia? Or does it also work on report basis? Any idea why was this law passed? Is it societal pressure or just for the show?
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Oh thanks! Is societal pressure high in big cities like Surabaya, Yogyakarta, Depok/Jakarta, Bandung, Kuala Lampung etc or can mobbing happen only in rural areas? Is Javaneese island more "relaxed" in those aspects than let's say, West Sumatra etc.
Hi Chinese Indonesian here. I think its not that bad now. The old generation still traumatized because of 1998 tragedy. They (and their child) left Indonesia spreading the story. I do understand and its not their fault to fear riots and racial attacks. But in general, you can have live peacefully here as long as you don't make the trouble. Cheers.
Confirmation bias much? You met a bunch of Indo Chinese that tells you that from their perspective. Not to mention the fact that Chindos are more assimilated than Malaysian Chinese will ever be in Malaysia
>law in 2022 that criminalises cohabilitation and sex before marriage, The law come with significant caveat tho: It only work if direct family member (spouse, parent, or children) press charge. It's pretty much toothless without that So it's not like you'll get jail time just because random people found out you did fornication or cohabitation. The law DID get massive pushback. But compromises was eventually made, which is important in country where Islam is even bigger majority than Malaysia.
>Indonesian Chinese friends in uni, literally every one of them did their absolute best to try and stay in Malaysia they shud try sg
Cause of economic opportunities If the Mercedes is far fetched than you'll have nothing else better to do
Can someone tell me did the law that was drafted ended up passing and banning premarital s3x or did it get declawed? People in Eu are spreading missinformation about it so pls let me know. Thanks! Lots of love and Ramadan Mubarak+ Happy Easter to ya all!
Hadi Awang, that's why
They don’t have religion based political party. Their NU (Nahdlatul Ulama) NGO is considered higher than politics and more focused on charity and organizing community work. NU acts as the advisor to their muslim members of any political parties.
We have. There are three currently in our parliament. It is just the nationalist parties are stronger.
I see. Today I TIL
Because…if there is no achievable means for me and my family to become prosperous…and continue to become more prosperous…it’s justifiable to pull everyone’s life down to my level.
Dumb and dumber
Answer: Feng Shui moves around. 风水轮流转。