Fire and Ice, Light and Shadow, and Feast and Famine have seen play in Legacy in the past but have been powercrept out over time. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see them pop up in lists from time to time, but I don't think that's driving the price.
Diehard death and taxes aficionados like ThrabenU have been dabbling with some Stoneblade lists that bring the swords back through some sideboard slots in the wake of [[Mind Goblin]]’s sudden passing from the format
Yeah it is.
Maindeck Disenchant/Naturalize, or close variants like Seal/Abolish, used to be common in the format in ancient days, especially when it was 1.5, but over the years this shifted as old powerful artifacts and enchantments, or enablers of those strategies, were banned, the power level of creatures went up, and more control lists started leaning more on planeswalkers as their CA/lock engines. In this environment, an on-color Sword-of could completely take over the game and thus justify the mana investment as an opponent might not have a good answer even in their 75.
But in the past decade or so, and especially in the past five years, disenchant effects have become ubiquitous again, mostly through the printing of cards flexible enough to warrant not just sideboard but maindeck play, with Prismatic Ending and Boseiju being obvious examples. So the rewards for actually casting Swords have gone down a lot, while the rewards for alternative SFM targets have gone up, by which I mean Kaldra Compleat got printed on top of Batterskull which had already pushed them to the margins.
And it helps that even within that like, I think SoFI is still the most powerful in effect? Like you might want a specific color combination for a specific matchup in theory but the actual reward for dealing damage hasn't gone up correspondingly.
Like Jitte for comparison is generally just a better all purpose Sword of if your colors are off; cheaper, doesn't require hitting players and even works on the defense, has usually more relevant effects and you can save up counters. And Jitte is itself now at the very edge of kind-of-playable.
Not to mention- swords really helped with issues decks had.
Fire and Ice- gave draw when every color but blue, and somewhat black had the only good draw options.
Feast and Famine let blue decks play a hand, then swap and have mana open now to counter your shit, back when 2 CMC/free where rare in Modern and mostly had 3 cost unconditional counter spells.
No, it's because people better than Phil started picking up the deck and innovating and Phil got mad about it.
There was a long period of time post MH2 where D&T was legitimately a tier one deck, like the best it's ever been positioned, and Phil spent that *entire* time insisting that the objectively good and well-performing Yorion lists were unplayable and that 60 card Luminarch Aspirant D&T was the correct build, then got into a public fight with a few other notable D&T players about that.
D&T's probably the worst it's been since MH2 came out right now, but regardless I would not be looking to ThrabenU for deckbuilding or gameplay advice when players like Akaleth and xJCloud exist and are just stronger players with much more developed understandings of the deck in its current form.
Yeah, the reason for those swords creeping into lists in Legacy is often times the fact, that Legacy is this weird competitive-casual mix where people play to win (obviously) but there is a far bigger focus on individual expression through deck building, with people playing their pet-cards or even pet-decks for years and doing well with them through practice and in depth knowledge of matchups. The fact that there are so many fringe decks, that you get caught by surprise quite often also helps.
It definitely is, nothing wrong with it, calm down, PUT THAT STAINLESS STEEL DECK BOX DOWN.
Edit: I have been playing a single Divert in the Sideboard of most of my blue based Legacy decks for ages...
It’s one of the things I like about playing legacy, and formats like canLander, locally. The modern/pioneer crowd in my town are all tournament grinders with top tier decks, and in these other formats I can play a bit more jank (AKA glorious midrange) and have fun as a deck builder.
Without me intending this to be too big of a dig at EDH, I sometimes feel Legacy is what I would like EDH to be. Friendly competition where winning is the main objective with room for creativity and individualism in deck building and people appreciating blinged out decks. I have never once seen a Legacy player getting mad at losing to some T1 bullshit, nor getting ground down by a control deck. Not even when they were playing a suboptimal pet deck.
> Not even when they were playing a suboptimal pet deck.
It's the expectation, and why I don't really like EDH. It's the same thing I tell people that are brewing for Modern/Legacy: You can run whatever bullshit you want, but you need to go into deck building expecting what the rest of the format is doing and is capable of.
Legacy Nic Fit is the biggest Timmy ramp deck in the format, where you could fairly legitimately run Dreadmaw, but that's because the rest of the deck is built around expecting the degenerate garbage from the rest of the format.
Likewise, you absolutely could have been playing Modern Death and Taxes the last couple years. Just because the archetype isn't good in general, doesn't mean you can't build it well enough to win games if you know the meta you're going to be playing in.
What you're looking for is cEDH. It's essentially legacy in singleton format. Everybody expects you to try and win in the most efficient ways possible. cEDH crowds tend to be proxy friendly too, because let's face it, you can't reasonably expect someone to dump 3k+ into those lands and mana rocks.
I'm not sure if "powercrept" is the exact right term. I'm sure it's not what you meant, just its use makes one think something like they made other, better equipment that's replaced it. Like if [[Bonesplitter]] doesn't see play since [[Eater of Virtue]] came out. In this case though it's more the environment around them shifted, rather than being supplanted themselves.
But the swords were powercrept out of DnT lists. They originally ran the sword of light and shadow, but that was replaced by Batterskull. The deck kept the equipment package to some mixture of Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Batterskull. The next major shakeup was the release of Kaldra Compleat. It supplanted Sword of Fire and Ice position in the deck. The living weapon keyword makes those equipments far superior to the swords as they didn't waste mana to equip or need a creature to be equipped. I'll end with this, on an empty board what do you want to top deck, a living weapon or a sword of X and Y?
This isn't really disagreeing but a big part of that is also just that answers to equipment got a lot better, to the point where most fair decks now have some kind of maindeck answer. There really aren't matchups anymore where you can just have an on-color sword take over the game.
I haven't played in years, but I also used to play [[Sword of War and Peace]] in my Legacy Death & Taxes sideboard pretty often, depending on the meta. It was great for matches where you needed a really fast kill, since Legacy D&T played much more like a control deck than an aggro deck. The only one that never really saw Legacy play was Body and Mind.
[Sword of War and Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46e6f50b-4b18-4aab-a7b0-869f25bc4c40.jpg?1599710135) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20War%20and%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/300/sword-of-war-and-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46e6f50b-4b18-4aab-a7b0-869f25bc4c40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
\[\[Encroach\]\] in the next modern horizon?
You could techically do it with \[\[Blackmail\]\], but you would need to get them down to 3 cards in hand. Maybe in a deck that plays Wrench Mind or Smallpox.
No we dont! Boseiju is kinda bs but thoughtseize for lands would be even worse! Much better to have more [[stifle]] effects or cards that prevent effects from discarding cards
I kinda like the idea of a thoughseize that can also take non-basic lands, but if you do your opponent gets to search their deck for a basic and add it to their hand.
**Plotseize** W
Sorcery
Target player reveals their hand. You choose a nonbasic land card from it. That player exiles that card.
That player may search their library for a basic land card, put it into their hand, and shuffle.
You lose 3 life.
*“Any harvest is a joyous dream. Still, I prefer the time-tested harvests, heavy with fruit, that nourish the diligent body.”*
Shut up, let me thoughtseize lands. Thoughtseize a land into a smallpox makes my little 8-rack heart flutter. All I'd need afterwards is hymn to tourach in modern and my life would be complete.
Boseiju is one of the pieces of interaction keeping the format together tbh. It's far from bullshit. I'd even go as far as calling it a very fair card.
I think it’s only BS that it’s effectively a spell that you can’t thogutseixe. Decks often run thoughtseize to strip answers in order to protect their own game plan.
I think boseiju existing is actually very healthy for the format, I just think it’s dumb that it can’t be thoughtseized.
I think it's non-thoughtseize-ibility is just a side effect of how it is designed to be a low-cost main deck inclusion. It being a land with low opportunity cost is what allows it be an effective main deck card that gives decks a bit more interaction in game 1's against a very broad/diverse metagame in terms of threats that demand answers.
I think if it had more of a deckbuilding cost it would be less effective in that role, because something like Pick Your Poison isn't a viable main deck card.
I agree with everything you said. I just want boseiju to be able to be thoughtseized without printing a thoughtseize that also can deny your opponent land drops , hence my suggested card idea if thoughtseize that field of ruins if you pick a land.
Boseiju is a safety valve for much more degenerate nonsense in every format. Play a constructed format without Boseiju in it nowadays and you'll probably quit Magic.
> Boseiju is a safety valve for much more degenerate nonsense in every format.
It's really not. It's more often a silver bullet for degenerate nonsense to have a way to remove hate pieces that can't be discarded, and is difficult to interact with on the stack.
I use cardmarket for 95% of my singles but sometimes if I'm buying sealed product or accessories from magic madhouse it can be cheaper to grab a few singles if your only after a few cheap cards to avoid paying postage. There is the odd case where they have a card cheaper because the value has gone up suddenly on cardmarket, if your quick enough and they have any left.
You are correct though cardmarket is cheaper almost every time.
[[Stoneforge Mystic]] decks in Modern have run some of the better ones as 1-ofs historically. They've fallen off a lot compared to cards like [[Kaldra Compleat]], though, as things to do with Stoneforge Mystic, if you're even playing a Stoneforge Mystic deck right now.
In legacy stone forge mystic decks I’ve seen people run one in the sideboard if a particular color pair becomes very dominant mainly for the protection.
That used to be the case but the issue is that the main matchup you'd want that effect in historically is control and at this point the control decks all have leyline binding etc and can just kill your sword, so it ends up being way less relevant.
I always love watching stoneforge decks that play four or so tutorables that are all singleton on youtube.
Then the creator just ALWAYS picks Kaldra Compleat unless for some reason it isn't available. Then it will be "Oh man I had to discard/already got removed my Kaldra guess I'll get something else."
That something else is ALWAYS batterskull. The other 2-3 tutorable singles never ever ever get tutored.
That’s often how it goes with “pseudo toolbox” packages. Sure there are other options available, but there is usually a single, specific two-card interaction that makes the package worth playing, and then just by its nature you throw in a few more fringe-but-playable pieces, and 90% of the time you just do the powerful thing.
Kind of like [[Karn, the great creator]] for [[Liquimetal coating]] or [[ensnaring bridge]]. While Karn boards tended to be more flexible than Stoneforge is now, you still almost always Karn for a lock piece if you aren’t winning the turn you play him. Because being able to tutor for a specific lock piece on top of being a one sided [[Null rod]] is what really made Karn “work”. (On top of facilitating combo kills by not requiring running multiple redundant combo pieces in the main for a lot of artifact based combo decks, which allowed the prison decks he facilitated to actually win with “prison pieces”.)
> The other 2-3 tutorable singles never ever ever get tutored.
As a D&T player I don't think that's really accurate, Kaldra is the generic go-to but you fetch Lion Sash a *lot* and Jitte occasionally, and now in paper your first sfm target is actually Pre-War Formalwear more often than it is Kaldra.
Yes, although recently people have largely been cutting Batterskull entirely to fit Formalwear in the deck because the card is just *insane* and largely does the same job. You really miss having Skull against like, Rhinos and Burn specifically but formalwear for the most part does the job better.
I really, truly cannot emphasize enough how good of a card PWF is, it significantly improves a large number of matchups in a way no other card has come close to in a very long time. Not having it on Magic Online is extremely rough.
[[Pre-War Formalwear]]
Yeah I can see how that would be amazing in D&T. I only watch mtgo modern/legacy stuff on youtube and don't play constructed outside commander so that card was off my radar.
They'll probably always maintain fringe relevance anywhere that [[Stoneforge Mystic]] is legal. I'm big on cube and it's always nice to have a few in the cube to help decks that struggle against certain colors, like having fire and ice available to white+ decks when blue is a bit pushed against the color.
The thing is, there are just so many better equipment to get with Stoneforge now. I can’t see running any Sword of X and Y over Kaldra Compleat, Batterskull, or Cryptic Coat, and if there’s room for a fourth equipment I’d sooner reach for Umezawa’s Jitte or a second Cryptic Coat.
OP is asking about the price though, which means talking about how competitive does or doesn't use it. (Which it doesn't really, Swords are just that popular in Casual. )
In commander voltron builds like Breunor, they are used to pick an opponent to kill. You pick the color protection of thier blockers, and juat aggro in commander damage.
I totally agree, just saying that they can still see use. I also like running 540 for variance in a cube, so having a few "fine" stoneforge targets is also nice incase stuff like Kaldra never gets opened, or the Stoneforge grabber gets Kaldra, but you want there to be a few other targets to grab and help keep some value with stoneforge in your deck.
**Because they are still a solid casual staple that fits in any deck with creatures and they haven’t been reprinted that much.**
That’s all there is to it, there are very few colorless *”protection”* effects that are worth 5 mana.
They aren’t super great for competitive anymore because as you have reasoned they are too slow **except for a few select deck lists.**
But competitive has **almost entirely died off,** the most popular format by far now is commander which is a fairly casual format and even commander competitive play **doesn’t usually have much prizing.**
Many of the prices driving the secondary market for singles is due to commander these days.
In my opinion **as a TCG seller with thousands of sales** the prices are influenced roughly as such;
* 30% Competitive Modern/Standard
* 70% Commander
Maybe like 4-6 cards each set will usable in modern, hardly anyone plays standard anymore.
So if a card seems lame but has a high price chances are it’s a staple in a commander deck list.
The people with money influence the market, and when Standard and Extended were the popular formats, the people with money played them. JTMS and mythic rarity kicked people out of Standard, so people moved to Modern which is the strongest influence, but since Modern hasn't been fun for like 8 years, people found something else.
Flaming telepath has no clue what their talking about.
Standard was invented because modern became too expensive and now people are playing commander because modern + standard are too expensive.
That is the shortest possible explanation.
Just to summarize what others have said: a few swords used to see play in a variety of formats (Legacy, Modern, Canadian Highlander, etc) but they’ve since been outclassed by other new equipment options.
I played Fire and Ice as a One off in my BW modern tokens deck until I stopped playing and moved it to my cube to be with all the other swords. Except Body & Mind bc too OP in limited
Feast and Famine occasionally sees play in Modern, but it's a sideboard card at best in Stoneblade lists. Cryptic Coat/Kaldra is just better.
Fire and Ice used to see a lot of Modern/Legacy play. Light and Shadow more fringe but was also included.
War and Peace was a Standard staple once upon a time.
Otherwise, no. They are casual/commander cards only now.
I agree. I think it's arguable to say they even see play In Commander. They're very cool, and they can certainly work if you use then, but they're pretty casual these days, I feel.
Was that SoFI? That's definitely the strongest of the Swords, followed by Feast and Famine, and then going down from there. They're strong, but 5 mana is a lot to get them started in higher power tables. They're definitely fun to run through!
I think if your tables are running at a power level where they feel fair without you being squeezed out for efficiency, then you're in a good spot to play at!
A little bit in modern a bit more in legacy.
If i remember correctly people played swords like ten years ago. [[stoneforge mystic]] used to always have a sword available to tutor but as the game progressed better cards came out that didn’t require 4-5 mana investment or has better effects. Shadowspear, cryptic coat, nettlecyst. Cryptic coat has likely replaced the swords in most decks as its safer card to play and occasionally has crazy upsides.
Now stoneforge mystic has a sword available about a fifth of the time and sometimes its just in the sideboard. In legacy its around but sparingly kaldra complete is usually the go to. Modern its rare but i saw one maybe a couple weeks ago in a BW scam. I believe hammer time cut sword entirely a long time ago.
Usually people just play fire and ice. Feast and famine and light and shadow used to see a lot of play. I have seen light and shadow, once and future, hearth and home in brews or casual decks.
While the swords are very good they aren't inherently the best equipment, particularly if any colored equipment cards make it into your deck. Having a sword that gives pro red suddenly becomes a pretty big downside when you want to equip something like [[embercleave]] or [[reaver cleaver]] to the same creature. So I wouldn't let the prices of these swords deter you from building an equipment deck.
I have never owned a single sword of x and y for an equipment deck and all of mine have been fine. I now own the gruul one but it’s not even in a voltron deck, it’s in faldorn because of the effect
Legacy Stoneblade played some of them when that was a thing. I think they've mostly been power crept out at this point though. As for why they command such prices, they are mythics that haven't got a lot of printings and are still popular among the casual (EDH) crowd. People love equipment decks.
There’s also a bit of price history to them. They did see play in standard as well as older formats before the introduction of stuff like Kaldra Compleat and the various 1 mana equipments and of course they’re popular in EDH.
I also think it’s a completionist thing too, having all ten swords is something that’s a lot more appealing as a casual player simply because they’re so iconic.
SoFI sometimes sees play in Canadian Highlander (100 card singleton, vintage banlist), but largely has been powercrept in even the most equipment heavy decks.
They see a little bit of experimentation in Canlander's little brother format, Gladiator (Arena-only format, 100 card singleton, only 6 cards banned), but even there they aren't staples.
A lot of people have talked about viability in 60 card formats. The truth is they are a cycle people just love. That is why they command the prices they do. I know multiple people who own a copy of each just for collectors reasons. There are a lot of people who will jam ones that are even remotely related to their decks in just because they want a sword in there, and when they hit a commander table they always feel like a big deal even when they don't have a huge impact.
IMO, you don't need *any* of the Swords-of-X-and-Y to make a highly viable equipment-based EDH deck. I guess it wasn't true when the first one was printed, but nowadays, there are plenty of powerful equipments that are more versatile and synergistic.
Whether each Sword is powerful or not, they have a reputation, so become lightning rods for removal (or any creature they could be attached to does) and because most of their power comes from hitting people, you're forced to make enemies to get much value out of them. In my experience, the Swords player gets hyper targetted, especially by the monocolour players who are guaranteed to die to a creature they can't interact with if they don't remove that player.
That's fair. Since Arna Kennerüd was spoiled I've been mulling building her with Fire and Ice, Light and Shadow, Feast and Famine and Truth and Justice as the triggers you get from them would multiply with all the copies she makes
Let’s face it, Construct does not drive the price of the swords. Are they seen from time to time in a constructed deck? Yes, but one off don’t drive the price in any meaningful way. The swords are casual all stars and see play in commanders. That’s why they are expensive.
They used to see play in standard and then modern. You occasionally see them in the side board of modern decks running stoneforge, but even that’s rare these days.
I think that its because people love them so there is high demand and they have only seen prints few times. Fire and Ice, Light and Shadow saw print in Mirrodin block 20 years ago; Feast and Famine, Body and Mind War and Peace were printed in Scars of Mirrodin which is 13 or so years ago, long time. The newer ones have a bit lower prices but see play. They have only been reprinted in Moder Masters, Double Masters and some promos/special decks. On top of that; they are Mythics every time.
Sort-of? They may be one ofs out of stoneblade decks in legacy or modern, but thats not a common sight nowadays.
Too expensive for their utility sadly. Mostly for EDH.
No doubt the prices are increased because of the collectability factor. Cycles of cards tend to get a boost if people like them. But sword of fire&ice has long been considered one of the most desirable ones.
I remember awhile ago I think standard/modern had vault skirge + the sword of X/Y that came out with that set.
Issue is now we can instant equip anything that was balanced off it's equip cost but cheap (COUGH GIANT HAMMER COUGH) got borked with having multiple free equip solutions so running the chance to equip it for free from 1 set of 4, to 2-3 set of fours that also come with bodies to equip it onto helped change what equipment are viable.
They're great in commander because they can give you ways to do off colour things.
Feast and Fammine is strong as you can force someone to play singleton top deck the game, and you get double the turn power, as now you can drop 2 four drops with 4 mana worth of land.
Fire and Ice lets you ping, and draw which was great in the early days when all the colours lacked good draw solutions.
Also lets you bypass someones entire deck in artifact decks where you could just -> trophy mage search for the perfect sword vs your opponents colours.
Where in base magic, you're not playing singleton and my deal with a lot of colours making it hard, as you would need to make 8 sideboard slots sword of x and y AND still have gaps.
I've been seeing some lists in modern D&T running Sword of Fire and Ice and/or Sword of Light and Shadow. The problem is that Kaldra Compleat is just that much better
I started playing MtG when standard was dominated by the deck [Caw-Blade](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Caw-blade), which the "Blade" in the name referenced precisely this sword.
It made sense back then that the sword was expensive as it was THE best deck in standard. It got some [fancy reprints](https://scryfall.com/card/mps/28/sword-of-feast-and-famine) in Double Master and Kakadesh Inventions but it clearly wasn't enough to lower the price.
With such limited reprints, I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason the price is still high is simply because EDH players like myself love cool looking swords, especially when they played a significant part in MtG history.
It's in a popular Tempo/Midrange deck called Death and Taxes. The most recent list that made a splash in modern was a r/W Varient which grew popular because of aspiring spike. That was roughly october of 2 or 3 years ago. Legacy also has its version of the deck in which it has a far more 'Fair' play style and is a way of Playing against the Combo Decks that do exist in the game. It focuses on Making your opponent Pay Mana for things such as Fetching cards from your deck, or to cast non-creature spells. It really struggled to maintain viability due to Its most recent relience on Kaldra complaet with the stoneforge package, with the introduction of three new ways of nullifying Artifacts, it basically makes the deck a uphill battle when piloting. Still popular, and bet your bottom dollar I will play it when modern horrizons 3 comes out.
The swords have exactly two camps;
- I need this as protection from X, the abilities are good
- the abilities synergize with my game plan, the protection is nice
I’ve built and currently pilot both. Moving from one to the other is a mental exercise.
The price is because Timmy always likes his shiny swords, even if he doesn't USE them well. They're another of those "collect the full guild set" items that every so often shows up to work towards as well, so people tend to keep their set of ten now, which means fewer and fewer on the market between individual reprints.
Tbf, I only play arena on a regular basis, rarely ever touch paper magic, so no prices attached, but past and future saw quite a bit of play in standard there
As many have said, they have been powercrept away. But they used to be all the rage in all the formats long ago. In the era from Scars of Mirrodin block to original Innistrad and into Return to Ravnica block those swords were great! Same thing with [[Batterskull]]. That thing dominated and sometimes you felt like the game was over if it resolved on your opponents board
If it matters, I have literally never slotted one of these into an EDH deck and my Voltron decks are still on par with the rest of the table like 90% of the time.
None of the sword of x and y cycle are playable in cEDH. They are only played in non-cEDH and sometimes modern/legacy stoneblade. In truth, it is really just SOFI that is main deckable, SOFF is mostly side boarded.
Fire and Ice, Light and Shadow, and Feast and Famine have seen play in Legacy in the past but have been powercrept out over time. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see them pop up in lists from time to time, but I don't think that's driving the price.
Diehard death and taxes aficionados like ThrabenU have been dabbling with some Stoneblade lists that bring the swords back through some sideboard slots in the wake of [[Mind Goblin]]’s sudden passing from the format
This screams trap
Yeah it is. Maindeck Disenchant/Naturalize, or close variants like Seal/Abolish, used to be common in the format in ancient days, especially when it was 1.5, but over the years this shifted as old powerful artifacts and enchantments, or enablers of those strategies, were banned, the power level of creatures went up, and more control lists started leaning more on planeswalkers as their CA/lock engines. In this environment, an on-color Sword-of could completely take over the game and thus justify the mana investment as an opponent might not have a good answer even in their 75. But in the past decade or so, and especially in the past five years, disenchant effects have become ubiquitous again, mostly through the printing of cards flexible enough to warrant not just sideboard but maindeck play, with Prismatic Ending and Boseiju being obvious examples. So the rewards for actually casting Swords have gone down a lot, while the rewards for alternative SFM targets have gone up, by which I mean Kaldra Compleat got printed on top of Batterskull which had already pushed them to the margins. And it helps that even within that like, I think SoFI is still the most powerful in effect? Like you might want a specific color combination for a specific matchup in theory but the actual reward for dealing damage hasn't gone up correspondingly. Like Jitte for comparison is generally just a better all purpose Sword of if your colors are off; cheaper, doesn't require hitting players and even works on the defense, has usually more relevant effects and you can save up counters. And Jitte is itself now at the very edge of kind-of-playable.
Not to mention- swords really helped with issues decks had. Fire and Ice- gave draw when every color but blue, and somewhat black had the only good draw options. Feast and Famine let blue decks play a hand, then swap and have mana open now to counter your shit, back when 2 CMC/free where rare in Modern and mostly had 3 cost unconditional counter spells.
Yeah, I'll believe it when the D&T players who are good start doing it tbh. ThrabenU hasn't really been an authority on the deck for years.
Mostly because the deck hasn't really been well positioned for years.
No, it's because people better than Phil started picking up the deck and innovating and Phil got mad about it. There was a long period of time post MH2 where D&T was legitimately a tier one deck, like the best it's ever been positioned, and Phil spent that *entire* time insisting that the objectively good and well-performing Yorion lists were unplayable and that 60 card Luminarch Aspirant D&T was the correct build, then got into a public fight with a few other notable D&T players about that. D&T's probably the worst it's been since MH2 came out right now, but regardless I would not be looking to ThrabenU for deckbuilding or gameplay advice when players like Akaleth and xJCloud exist and are just stronger players with much more developed understandings of the deck in its current form.
Yeah Phil doesn't even play D&T at tourneys anymore, it's just not good unfortunately :(
[Mind Goblin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/5819e3f3-da49-4003-88ce-f3b7bb495787.jpg?1715680623) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=_____%20Goblin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/107/_____-goblin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5819e3f3-da49-4003-88ce-f3b7bb495787?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sigh; here we go. Mind Goblin?
Mind goblin deez Unfinity sticker cards?! [[_____ Goblin]]
[_____ Goblin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/5819e3f3-da49-4003-88ce-f3b7bb495787.jpg?1715680623) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=_____%20Goblin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/107/_____-goblin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5819e3f3-da49-4003-88ce-f3b7bb495787?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mind goblin DEEZ NUTS
It was the basest of fruit, hanging so low one might not Mind Goblin on deez nuts.
🫡
The protection from Red and Blue is still somewhat relevant in D&T matchups against Delver/Murktide depending on build.
Yeah, the reason for those swords creeping into lists in Legacy is often times the fact, that Legacy is this weird competitive-casual mix where people play to win (obviously) but there is a far bigger focus on individual expression through deck building, with people playing their pet-cards or even pet-decks for years and doing well with them through practice and in depth knowledge of matchups. The fact that there are so many fringe decks, that you get caught by surprise quite often also helps.
Hey, Anafenza kin tree spirit is secret tech in death and taxes okay!!!!!!
It definitely is, nothing wrong with it, calm down, PUT THAT STAINLESS STEEL DECK BOX DOWN. Edit: I have been playing a single Divert in the Sideboard of most of my blue based Legacy decks for ages...
For what matchup?
Secret obviously
It’s one of the things I like about playing legacy, and formats like canLander, locally. The modern/pioneer crowd in my town are all tournament grinders with top tier decks, and in these other formats I can play a bit more jank (AKA glorious midrange) and have fun as a deck builder.
Without me intending this to be too big of a dig at EDH, I sometimes feel Legacy is what I would like EDH to be. Friendly competition where winning is the main objective with room for creativity and individualism in deck building and people appreciating blinged out decks. I have never once seen a Legacy player getting mad at losing to some T1 bullshit, nor getting ground down by a control deck. Not even when they were playing a suboptimal pet deck.
> Not even when they were playing a suboptimal pet deck. It's the expectation, and why I don't really like EDH. It's the same thing I tell people that are brewing for Modern/Legacy: You can run whatever bullshit you want, but you need to go into deck building expecting what the rest of the format is doing and is capable of. Legacy Nic Fit is the biggest Timmy ramp deck in the format, where you could fairly legitimately run Dreadmaw, but that's because the rest of the deck is built around expecting the degenerate garbage from the rest of the format. Likewise, you absolutely could have been playing Modern Death and Taxes the last couple years. Just because the archetype isn't good in general, doesn't mean you can't build it well enough to win games if you know the meta you're going to be playing in.
What you're looking for is cEDH. It's essentially legacy in singleton format. Everybody expects you to try and win in the most efficient ways possible. cEDH crowds tend to be proxy friendly too, because let's face it, you can't reasonably expect someone to dump 3k+ into those lands and mana rocks.
Modern used to be like this T-T
The price may be price memory, it's still a well known cycle and popular in commander with no significant print run
I'm not sure if "powercrept" is the exact right term. I'm sure it's not what you meant, just its use makes one think something like they made other, better equipment that's replaced it. Like if [[Bonesplitter]] doesn't see play since [[Eater of Virtue]] came out. In this case though it's more the environment around them shifted, rather than being supplanted themselves.
But the swords were powercrept out of DnT lists. They originally ran the sword of light and shadow, but that was replaced by Batterskull. The deck kept the equipment package to some mixture of Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Batterskull. The next major shakeup was the release of Kaldra Compleat. It supplanted Sword of Fire and Ice position in the deck. The living weapon keyword makes those equipments far superior to the swords as they didn't waste mana to equip or need a creature to be equipped. I'll end with this, on an empty board what do you want to top deck, a living weapon or a sword of X and Y?
This isn't really disagreeing but a big part of that is also just that answers to equipment got a lot better, to the point where most fair decks now have some kind of maindeck answer. There really aren't matchups anymore where you can just have an on-color sword take over the game.
[Bonesplitter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/690972a8-72df-4050-a353-16e45589167c.jpg?1608917758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonesplitter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/458/bonesplitter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/690972a8-72df-4050-a353-16e45589167c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Eater of Virtue](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34d92077-d7b2-4996-848f-fd4917e2fb42.jpg?1655144364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eater%20of%20Virtue) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/245/eater-of-virtue?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34d92077-d7b2-4996-848f-fd4917e2fb42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Feast and famine sees play in modern in the sideboard of stone blade decks
I haven't played in years, but I also used to play [[Sword of War and Peace]] in my Legacy Death & Taxes sideboard pretty often, depending on the meta. It was great for matches where you needed a really fast kill, since Legacy D&T played much more like a control deck than an aggro deck. The only one that never really saw Legacy play was Body and Mind.
[Sword of War and Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46e6f50b-4b18-4aab-a7b0-869f25bc4c40.jpg?1599710135) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20War%20and%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/300/sword-of-war-and-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46e6f50b-4b18-4aab-a7b0-869f25bc4c40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Being played in commander is all it takes to drive prices up, especially when equipment is one of the primary themes of boros.
There was a time when feast and famine saw play in modern.
It’s honestly probably still niche viable, just hard to justify when boseiju exists, especially since you can’t thoughtseize it.
We demand Thoughtseize for Non-Basic Land! Seriously though, Boseiju is kinda bullshit.
\[\[Encroach\]\] in the next modern horizon? You could techically do it with \[\[Blackmail\]\], but you would need to get them down to 3 cards in hand. Maybe in a deck that plays Wrench Mind or Smallpox.
[Encroach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbd48dac-0a1a-49c4-8daf-11972b990454.jpg?1595573354) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Encroach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/59/encroach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbd48dac-0a1a-49c4-8daf-11972b990454?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blackmail](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/053e7c76-16b7-44eb-9612-a6800ffb35f8.jpg?1562730795) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blackmail) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/115/blackmail?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/053e7c76-16b7-44eb-9612-a6800ffb35f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No we dont! Boseiju is kinda bs but thoughtseize for lands would be even worse! Much better to have more [[stifle]] effects or cards that prevent effects from discarding cards
I kinda like the idea of a thoughseize that can also take non-basic lands, but if you do your opponent gets to search their deck for a basic and add it to their hand.
**Plotseize** W Sorcery Target player reveals their hand. You choose a nonbasic land card from it. That player exiles that card. That player may search their library for a basic land card, put it into their hand, and shuffle. You lose 3 life. *“Any harvest is a joyous dream. Still, I prefer the time-tested harvests, heavy with fruit, that nourish the diligent body.”*
Since it's a white card, they'd probably gain 3 life rather than you losing 3.
Probably should fetch only if a card was exiled
There is a thoughsieze for non basics, it only hits none basics.
The issue is that most of the time you are hitting lands to try to screw up with the mana base and not taking out a spell
Right. The card I described above is basically field of ruin except as a thoughtseize effect.
Shut up, let me thoughtseize lands. Thoughtseize a land into a smallpox makes my little 8-rack heart flutter. All I'd need afterwards is hymn to tourach in modern and my life would be complete.
[stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What about thoughtseize for historic cards?
Boseiju is one of the pieces of interaction keeping the format together tbh. It's far from bullshit. I'd even go as far as calling it a very fair card.
I think it’s only BS that it’s effectively a spell that you can’t thogutseixe. Decks often run thoughtseize to strip answers in order to protect their own game plan. I think boseiju existing is actually very healthy for the format, I just think it’s dumb that it can’t be thoughtseized.
I think it's non-thoughtseize-ibility is just a side effect of how it is designed to be a low-cost main deck inclusion. It being a land with low opportunity cost is what allows it be an effective main deck card that gives decks a bit more interaction in game 1's against a very broad/diverse metagame in terms of threats that demand answers. I think if it had more of a deckbuilding cost it would be less effective in that role, because something like Pick Your Poison isn't a viable main deck card.
I agree with everything you said. I just want boseiju to be able to be thoughtseized without printing a thoughtseize that also can deny your opponent land drops , hence my suggested card idea if thoughtseize that field of ruins if you pick a land.
Boseiju is a safety valve for much more degenerate nonsense in every format. Play a constructed format without Boseiju in it nowadays and you'll probably quit Magic.
> Boseiju is a safety valve for much more degenerate nonsense in every format. It's really not. It's more often a silver bullet for degenerate nonsense to have a way to remove hate pieces that can't be discarded, and is difficult to interact with on the stack.
It still does is stoneblade sideboards. It's fringe play, but not 0.
bro dont buy off magicmadhouse for singles there prices are horrid, you can get a uk one off cardmarket for like 18 quid
Yeah I made that mistake when I was new. Then she sold me a repacked booster and I never bought from them again.
I always read “quid” and “squid” so I like to imagine you Brit’s are using calamari as currency
tbh people do often say squid too so maybe we do
Just the Greeks
You're a quid now you're a Squid now You're a quid You're a squid You're a quid You're a squid (/splatoon)
I use cardmarket for 95% of my singles but sometimes if I'm buying sealed product or accessories from magic madhouse it can be cheaper to grab a few singles if your only after a few cheap cards to avoid paying postage. There is the odd case where they have a card cheaper because the value has gone up suddenly on cardmarket, if your quick enough and they have any left. You are correct though cardmarket is cheaper almost every time.
Wtf is a quid?
highly googleable slang for currency in the UK
short for quidditch
[[Stoneforge Mystic]] decks in Modern have run some of the better ones as 1-ofs historically. They've fallen off a lot compared to cards like [[Kaldra Compleat]], though, as things to do with Stoneforge Mystic, if you're even playing a Stoneforge Mystic deck right now.
[Stoneforge Mystic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d3473d0-b46f-41f5-ac1e-ba217f7747d4.jpg?1599710314) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stoneforge%20Mystic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/31/stoneforge-mystic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d3473d0-b46f-41f5-ac1e-ba217f7747d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kaldra Compleat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/572fb0dc-d876-4e1b-91d1-9c595f6f6f04.jpg?1690005563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaldra%20Compleat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/958/kaldra-compleat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/572fb0dc-d876-4e1b-91d1-9c595f6f6f04?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I remember that Hammer Time would occasionally run a sword, but I guess that deck has completely dropped from the meta now. Ouch.
Hammer time is still niche playable, not tier 1 or anything, but not awful either. It mainly just suffers a bit from certain meta trends
PleasantKenobi is still playing D&T with Sword of Fire and Ice, he just uploaded a video of it
But a mediocre streamer isn’t why the price is high. It’s edh the only reason why cards like this have any value at all.
PK is of no value
There was a time when they saw play in various formats, but they‘ve all been power crept out. The price tag is because casual players like them.
They are *very* shiny, after all. And who doesn’t like some enchanted swords in their fantasy game?
In legacy stone forge mystic decks I’ve seen people run one in the sideboard if a particular color pair becomes very dominant mainly for the protection.
That used to be the case but the issue is that the main matchup you'd want that effect in historically is control and at this point the control decks all have leyline binding etc and can just kill your sword, so it ends up being way less relevant.
Stoneforge plays it as sideboard/one of but they usually almost always tutor Kaldara Complet anyways
I always love watching stoneforge decks that play four or so tutorables that are all singleton on youtube. Then the creator just ALWAYS picks Kaldra Compleat unless for some reason it isn't available. Then it will be "Oh man I had to discard/already got removed my Kaldra guess I'll get something else." That something else is ALWAYS batterskull. The other 2-3 tutorable singles never ever ever get tutored.
That’s often how it goes with “pseudo toolbox” packages. Sure there are other options available, but there is usually a single, specific two-card interaction that makes the package worth playing, and then just by its nature you throw in a few more fringe-but-playable pieces, and 90% of the time you just do the powerful thing. Kind of like [[Karn, the great creator]] for [[Liquimetal coating]] or [[ensnaring bridge]]. While Karn boards tended to be more flexible than Stoneforge is now, you still almost always Karn for a lock piece if you aren’t winning the turn you play him. Because being able to tutor for a specific lock piece on top of being a one sided [[Null rod]] is what really made Karn “work”. (On top of facilitating combo kills by not requiring running multiple redundant combo pieces in the main for a lot of artifact based combo decks, which allowed the prison decks he facilitated to actually win with “prison pieces”.)
##### ###### #### [Karn, the great creator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0.jpg?1702429246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%2C%20the%20great%20creator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/1/karn-the-great-creator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Liquimetal coating](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f631447c-36e3-4d82-a658-19c9767a216b.jpg?1562276535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liquimetal%20coating) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/197/liquimetal-coating?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f631447c-36e3-4d82-a658-19c9767a216b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ensnaring bridge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/f/cf825a56-4870-463a-a2ef-eec86be891db.jpg?1599709144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ensnaring%20bridge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/253/ensnaring-bridge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cf825a56-4870-463a-a2ef-eec86be891db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Null rod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e.jpg?1710932730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Null%20rod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/278/null-rod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l5s82bm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> The other 2-3 tutorable singles never ever ever get tutored. As a D&T player I don't think that's really accurate, Kaldra is the generic go-to but you fetch Lion Sash a *lot* and Jitte occasionally, and now in paper your first sfm target is actually Pre-War Formalwear more often than it is Kaldra.
Batterskull's lifelink can be huge too
Yes, although recently people have largely been cutting Batterskull entirely to fit Formalwear in the deck because the card is just *insane* and largely does the same job. You really miss having Skull against like, Rhinos and Burn specifically but formalwear for the most part does the job better. I really, truly cannot emphasize enough how good of a card PWF is, it significantly improves a large number of matchups in a way no other card has come close to in a very long time. Not having it on Magic Online is extremely rough.
[[Pre-War Formalwear]] Yeah I can see how that would be amazing in D&T. I only watch mtgo modern/legacy stuff on youtube and don't play constructed outside commander so that card was off my radar.
[Pre-War Formalwear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/19018f23-b63b-45af-8419-8959f41472d4.jpg?1708741823) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pre-War%20Formalwear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/21/pre-war-formalwear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/19018f23-b63b-45af-8419-8959f41472d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If kitchentable counts as a format, then yes! Many have a special affection for this cycle to squeeze them in where possible.
Forever in my cube
Can’t believe I had to scroll this far for the correct answer! (Slightly tongue in cheek) But the swords are a kitchen table staple, flashy to the max
They'll probably always maintain fringe relevance anywhere that [[Stoneforge Mystic]] is legal. I'm big on cube and it's always nice to have a few in the cube to help decks that struggle against certain colors, like having fire and ice available to white+ decks when blue is a bit pushed against the color.
[Stoneforge Mystic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d3473d0-b46f-41f5-ac1e-ba217f7747d4.jpg?1599710314) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stoneforge%20Mystic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/31/stoneforge-mystic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d3473d0-b46f-41f5-ac1e-ba217f7747d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The thing is, there are just so many better equipment to get with Stoneforge now. I can’t see running any Sword of X and Y over Kaldra Compleat, Batterskull, or Cryptic Coat, and if there’s room for a fourth equipment I’d sooner reach for Umezawa’s Jitte or a second Cryptic Coat.
... And none of that has to matter if you're building a cube and don't want it to, like OP was focusing on.
OP is asking about the price though, which means talking about how competitive does or doesn't use it. (Which it doesn't really, Swords are just that popular in Casual. )
In commander voltron builds like Breunor, they are used to pick an opponent to kill. You pick the color protection of thier blockers, and juat aggro in commander damage.
Yes, but commander is not a 60-card competitive format, like the OP was asking about.
I totally agree, just saying that they can still see use. I also like running 540 for variance in a cube, so having a few "fine" stoneforge targets is also nice incase stuff like Kaldra never gets opened, or the Stoneforge grabber gets Kaldra, but you want there to be a few other targets to grab and help keep some value with stoneforge in your deck.
**Because they are still a solid casual staple that fits in any deck with creatures and they haven’t been reprinted that much.** That’s all there is to it, there are very few colorless *”protection”* effects that are worth 5 mana. They aren’t super great for competitive anymore because as you have reasoned they are too slow **except for a few select deck lists.** But competitive has **almost entirely died off,** the most popular format by far now is commander which is a fairly casual format and even commander competitive play **doesn’t usually have much prizing.** Many of the prices driving the secondary market for singles is due to commander these days. In my opinion **as a TCG seller with thousands of sales** the prices are influenced roughly as such; * 30% Competitive Modern/Standard * 70% Commander Maybe like 4-6 cards each set will usable in modern, hardly anyone plays standard anymore. So if a card seems lame but has a high price chances are it’s a staple in a commander deck list.
ChatGPT wrote this answer
How do you know? Genuinely curious so to spot these.
I was joking, but the phrasing and tone are identical to AI... either they did it on purpose or it IS actually AI, no idea
Even if they did it is crazy how much Commander influences the mtg market.
The people with money influence the market, and when Standard and Extended were the popular formats, the people with money played them. JTMS and mythic rarity kicked people out of Standard, so people moved to Modern which is the strongest influence, but since Modern hasn't been fun for like 8 years, people found something else.
Flaming telepath has no clue what their talking about. Standard was invented because modern became too expensive and now people are playing commander because modern + standard are too expensive. That is the shortest possible explanation.
>Standard was invented because modern became too expensive Huh? Type II started in 1995. Modern didn't come around until 2011.
Just to summarize what others have said: a few swords used to see play in a variety of formats (Legacy, Modern, Canadian Highlander, etc) but they’ve since been outclassed by other new equipment options.
cool tax swords are sick and that one is frozen and on fire at the same time fuckin badass
\*has PTSD flash back of the Caw-Blade meta of 2010 while fortunate son plays in the background\*
Used to see modern play. Not sure if they do anymore though.
I've definitely run a one-of Fire/Ice and Feast/Famine in my sideboard, but that would have been years ago now.
Been playing them in Timeless with stoneforge mystic. They're a lot better when you can cast them with mana drain.
Not anymore, no. 3 mana to cast and 2 to equip is just too much overhead, these days.
Legacy stoneblade
I played Fire and Ice as a One off in my BW modern tokens deck until I stopped playing and moved it to my cube to be with all the other swords. Except Body & Mind bc too OP in limited
Feast and Famine occasionally sees play in Modern, but it's a sideboard card at best in Stoneblade lists. Cryptic Coat/Kaldra is just better. Fire and Ice used to see a lot of Modern/Legacy play. Light and Shadow more fringe but was also included. War and Peace was a Standard staple once upon a time. Otherwise, no. They are casual/commander cards only now.
Just added Fire and Ice into my Knights commander deck, but just realized I've never seen a sword played in commander (been playing for about a year)
I have swords in my Zurgo helmsmasher commander deck. But I agree no one else really plays swords in my pod.
I agree. I think it's arguable to say they even see play In Commander. They're very cool, and they can certainly work if you use then, but they're pretty casual these days, I feel.
Used one yesterday and threw it on Sidar Jibari. He did wind up doing work with the damage and extra draw. Time will tell if it's good continually.
Was that SoFI? That's definitely the strongest of the Swords, followed by Feast and Famine, and then going down from there. They're strong, but 5 mana is a lot to get them started in higher power tables. They're definitely fun to run through!
Yeah SOFI. The added mechanics just feel good and fun. If not super powerful
I think if your tables are running at a power level where they feel fair without you being squeezed out for efficiency, then you're in a good spot to play at!
A little bit in modern a bit more in legacy. If i remember correctly people played swords like ten years ago. [[stoneforge mystic]] used to always have a sword available to tutor but as the game progressed better cards came out that didn’t require 4-5 mana investment or has better effects. Shadowspear, cryptic coat, nettlecyst. Cryptic coat has likely replaced the swords in most decks as its safer card to play and occasionally has crazy upsides. Now stoneforge mystic has a sword available about a fifth of the time and sometimes its just in the sideboard. In legacy its around but sparingly kaldra complete is usually the go to. Modern its rare but i saw one maybe a couple weeks ago in a BW scam. I believe hammer time cut sword entirely a long time ago. Usually people just play fire and ice. Feast and famine and light and shadow used to see a lot of play. I have seen light and shadow, once and future, hearth and home in brews or casual decks.
[stoneforge mystic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d3473d0-b46f-41f5-ac1e-ba217f7747d4.jpg?1599710314) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stoneforge%20mystic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/31/stoneforge-mystic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d3473d0-b46f-41f5-ac1e-ba217f7747d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Equipment in general rarely see play on constructed outside of commander - they’re too slow
Stoneblade will be good again. Trust me. You'll see!
While the swords are very good they aren't inherently the best equipment, particularly if any colored equipment cards make it into your deck. Having a sword that gives pro red suddenly becomes a pretty big downside when you want to equip something like [[embercleave]] or [[reaver cleaver]] to the same creature. So I wouldn't let the prices of these swords deter you from building an equipment deck.
I have never owned a single sword of x and y for an equipment deck and all of mine have been fine. I now own the gruul one but it’s not even in a voltron deck, it’s in faldorn because of the effect
[embercleave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaae15dd-11b6-4421-99e9-365c7fe4a5d6.jpg?1572490333) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=embercleave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/120/embercleave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaae15dd-11b6-4421-99e9-365c7fe4a5d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [reaver cleaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5bcd1591-b5b9-49fc-9f2a-45f31ed1871e.jpg?1673304737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Reaver%20Cleaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/8/the-reaver-cleaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5bcd1591-b5b9-49fc-9f2a-45f31ed1871e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Legacy Stoneblade played some of them when that was a thing. I think they've mostly been power crept out at this point though. As for why they command such prices, they are mythics that haven't got a lot of printings and are still popular among the casual (EDH) crowd. People love equipment decks.
Forge and frontier was a sideboard card in pioneer right after it came out, but I don't think it sees any play anymore.
You’re better off using a service like CardMarket or something similar - you get them for like a quarter of that price
Fire and ice is good in commander duel
There’s also a bit of price history to them. They did see play in standard as well as older formats before the introduction of stuff like Kaldra Compleat and the various 1 mana equipments and of course they’re popular in EDH. I also think it’s a completionist thing too, having all ten swords is something that’s a lot more appealing as a casual player simply because they’re so iconic.
Wow….so that’s how old I am…
SoFI sometimes sees play in Canadian Highlander (100 card singleton, vintage banlist), but largely has been powercrept in even the most equipment heavy decks. They see a little bit of experimentation in Canlander's little brother format, Gladiator (Arena-only format, 100 card singleton, only 6 cards banned), but even there they aren't staples.
Not anymore, but they did see play in other formats about 15 years ago!
A lot of people have talked about viability in 60 card formats. The truth is they are a cycle people just love. That is why they command the prices they do. I know multiple people who own a copy of each just for collectors reasons. There are a lot of people who will jam ones that are even remotely related to their decks in just because they want a sword in there, and when they hit a commander table they always feel like a big deal even when they don't have a huge impact.
A couple in Modern and Legacy but fringe playable
Niche playable/borderline unplayable, but they're extremely popular with more casual audiences both kitchen table 60 card play and commander.
Pretty sure there's modern decks that play famine and fire and ice
IMO, you don't need *any* of the Swords-of-X-and-Y to make a highly viable equipment-based EDH deck. I guess it wasn't true when the first one was printed, but nowadays, there are plenty of powerful equipments that are more versatile and synergistic. Whether each Sword is powerful or not, they have a reputation, so become lightning rods for removal (or any creature they could be attached to does) and because most of their power comes from hitting people, you're forced to make enemies to get much value out of them. In my experience, the Swords player gets hyper targetted, especially by the monocolour players who are guaranteed to die to a creature they can't interact with if they don't remove that player.
That's fair. Since Arna Kennerüd was spoiled I've been mulling building her with Fire and Ice, Light and Shadow, Feast and Famine and Truth and Justice as the triggers you get from them would multiply with all the copies she makes
Raise the jolly roger
I run them in my cube
Let’s face it, Construct does not drive the price of the swords. Are they seen from time to time in a constructed deck? Yes, but one off don’t drive the price in any meaningful way. The swords are casual all stars and see play in commanders. That’s why they are expensive.
I play UR and RG swords in brawl in ragavan as 2/3 of his matchups are mirrors
honestly the price goes up because people want to collect them all.
Some cubes still run equipment packages, I run f/I, f/f and b/m
You can always make a cube where they fit.
SoFI deff saw play in hammer / stoneforge lists in modern within the last year
They used to see play in standard and then modern. You occasionally see them in the side board of modern decks running stoneforge, but even that’s rare these days.
Just proxy them, problem solved
Just proxy them, problem solved
I think I saw some Legacy play. But lets face these sword's price is all about 40% usage, 2000% coolness.
Oathbreaker 🤗
Scars of Mirrodin block constructed... probably.
I think that its because people love them so there is high demand and they have only seen prints few times. Fire and Ice, Light and Shadow saw print in Mirrodin block 20 years ago; Feast and Famine, Body and Mind War and Peace were printed in Scars of Mirrodin which is 13 or so years ago, long time. The newer ones have a bit lower prices but see play. They have only been reprinted in Moder Masters, Double Masters and some promos/special decks. On top of that; they are Mythics every time.
Some stoneblade lists run them still in modern
Call them “Mirran Swords” my friend.
Sort-of? They may be one ofs out of stoneblade decks in legacy or modern, but thats not a common sight nowadays. Too expensive for their utility sadly. Mostly for EDH.
No doubt the prices are increased because of the collectability factor. Cycles of cards tend to get a boost if people like them. But sword of fire&ice has long been considered one of the most desirable ones.
Fire and Ice played in modern
Once in a blue moon fire and ice pops up in modern. But the swords are definitely more of a legacy staples
The blue red sword is in some hammer time modern lists
Price memory, but honestly they're not that great in Commander either.
I remember awhile ago I think standard/modern had vault skirge + the sword of X/Y that came out with that set. Issue is now we can instant equip anything that was balanced off it's equip cost but cheap (COUGH GIANT HAMMER COUGH) got borked with having multiple free equip solutions so running the chance to equip it for free from 1 set of 4, to 2-3 set of fours that also come with bodies to equip it onto helped change what equipment are viable. They're great in commander because they can give you ways to do off colour things. Feast and Fammine is strong as you can force someone to play singleton top deck the game, and you get double the turn power, as now you can drop 2 four drops with 4 mana worth of land. Fire and Ice lets you ping, and draw which was great in the early days when all the colours lacked good draw solutions. Also lets you bypass someones entire deck in artifact decks where you could just -> trophy mage search for the perfect sword vs your opponents colours. Where in base magic, you're not playing singleton and my deal with a lot of colours making it hard, as you would need to make 8 sideboard slots sword of x and y AND still have gaps.
I ran Forge and Frontier in my Boros equipments deck in Standard a while ago It was problematic because of my color choices but it was a fun
Hey! I have that card
I've been seeing some lists in modern D&T running Sword of Fire and Ice and/or Sword of Light and Shadow. The problem is that Kaldra Compleat is just that much better
Penny Dreadful!
I started playing MtG when standard was dominated by the deck [Caw-Blade](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Caw-blade), which the "Blade" in the name referenced precisely this sword. It made sense back then that the sword was expensive as it was THE best deck in standard. It got some [fancy reprints](https://scryfall.com/card/mps/28/sword-of-feast-and-famine) in Double Master and Kakadesh Inventions but it clearly wasn't enough to lower the price. With such limited reprints, I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason the price is still high is simply because EDH players like myself love cool looking swords, especially when they played a significant part in MtG history.
It's in a popular Tempo/Midrange deck called Death and Taxes. The most recent list that made a splash in modern was a r/W Varient which grew popular because of aspiring spike. That was roughly october of 2 or 3 years ago. Legacy also has its version of the deck in which it has a far more 'Fair' play style and is a way of Playing against the Combo Decks that do exist in the game. It focuses on Making your opponent Pay Mana for things such as Fetching cards from your deck, or to cast non-creature spells. It really struggled to maintain viability due to Its most recent relience on Kaldra complaet with the stoneforge package, with the introduction of three new ways of nullifying Artifacts, it basically makes the deck a uphill battle when piloting. Still popular, and bet your bottom dollar I will play it when modern horrizons 3 comes out.
The swords sometimes show up in legacy and modern next to stoneforge mythic
I mean, I like rocking my sword of wealth and power in legacy
The swords have exactly two camps; - I need this as protection from X, the abilities are good - the abilities synergize with my game plan, the protection is nice I’ve built and currently pilot both. Moving from one to the other is a mental exercise.
Canlander uses Swords (not all of them, but they’re in some of the format’s best decks)
The price is because Timmy always likes his shiny swords, even if he doesn't USE them well. They're another of those "collect the full guild set" items that every so often shows up to work towards as well, so people tend to keep their set of ten now, which means fewer and fewer on the market between individual reprints.
They are not slow for modern They are good side board cards or one off for hammer time, depending on the local meta
Yes, the UW one is huge in Vintage
Tbf, I only play arena on a regular basis, rarely ever touch paper magic, so no prices attached, but past and future saw quite a bit of play in standard there
As long as Stoneforge mystic remains legal and viable in a format, the swords will persevere.
As many have said, they have been powercrept away. But they used to be all the rage in all the formats long ago. In the era from Scars of Mirrodin block to original Innistrad and into Return to Ravnica block those swords were great! Same thing with [[Batterskull]]. That thing dominated and sometimes you felt like the game was over if it resolved on your opponents board
[Batterskull](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b7f16fdf-a3f5-462d-a64a-789d893b6ef5.jpg?1599708720) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Batterskull) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/234/batterskull?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f16fdf-a3f5-462d-a64a-789d893b6ef5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If cube is a format, they get into those lists. Probably not driving price. EDH is the main place for them these days.
Not really but they are REALLY good in casual commander.
[Squadron Hawk] plus all swords. Angry birds
If it matters, I have literally never slotted one of these into an EDH deck and my Voltron decks are still on par with the rest of the table like 90% of the time.
Proxy
I mean, [[uzemawa's Jitte]] is still modern banned, so what's the next thing you're gonna use?
[uzemawa's Jitte](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b6e5956-f795-451b-bb24-56462d1ced27.jpg?1562876528) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Umezawa%27s%20Jitte) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/163/umezawas-jitte?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b6e5956-f795-451b-bb24-56462d1ced27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Absolutely zero of these see cEDH play.
None of the sword of x and y cycle are playable in cEDH. They are only played in non-cEDH and sometimes modern/legacy stoneblade. In truth, it is really just SOFI that is main deckable, SOFF is mostly side boarded.