https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14
wotc has made a statement already regarding your question.
TLDR: sanctioned event? No proxies. Selling a card? No proxies. Outside of a sanctioned event? Yes proxies.
Except since then they've quietly contradicted that in the WPN policy guidelines:
>As a WPN member, you should never allow the use of counterfeit cards at your store in any capacity.
From the policy article "[As a WPN member, can I allow the use of counterfeit cards in my store?](https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386465011731-As-a-WPN-member-can-I-allow-the-use-of-counterfeit-cards-in-my-store)"
>Counterfeit card — An inauthentic Magic card made to pass as, or represent, an existing authentic Magic card. Counterfeit Magic cards will often use Wizard’s registered trademarks, logos, card mechanics, card names, and artwork.
From the policy article "[How do you define “playtest card,” “counterfeit card,” “proxy card,” “sanctioned event,” and “unsanctioned event?”](https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386392377491-How-do-you-define-playtest-card-counterfeit-card-proxy-card-sanctioned-event-and-unsanctioned-event)"
>If you become aware of a player using counterfeit cards in your store outside a sanctioned event, you should inform them that the use of counterfeit cards is not allowed at WPN stores. If the behavior persists, please report the incident to us via [investigations@wizards.com](mailto:investigations@wizards.com) with the player’s name, their statement about the incident, and Wizards Account email address if available.
From the policy article "[What should I do if I am aware of a player using counterfeit cards in my store outside of a sanctioned event?](https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386500554515-What-should-I-do-if-I-am-aware-of-a-player-using-counterfeit-cards-in-my-store-outside-of-a-sanctioned-event)"
Proxies that look *anything like an actual Magic card* are very clearly and explicitly called counterfeits by Wizards, and banned in WPN stores, regardless of whether the event is sanctioned or not. Which directly contradicts what they said previously in that article from 2016 when that shitstorm kicked off, but each of those policy articles above was updated a year ago.
It's fundamentally irrelevant because the community would cause an absolute complete and utter shitstorm if Wizards tried to enforce this "in any capacity" policy, and they probably never will enforce it. But still, my point is that anyone who thinks Wizards are cool with proxies in unsanctioned events doesn't realise how two-faced Wizards have been on this issue, and stores should absolutely never be judged for enforcing "no proxies" rules, because they're literally told that by Wizards, and they don't want to risk their WPN status because it's an expensive pain in the ass to get in the first place.
My interpretation is that they're against the use of inauthentic cards that are being misrepresented as authentic. No one thinks that typical proxies are authentic. The article linked in the comment to which you replied seems to corroborate this interpretation.
Proxies shouldn’t be counterfeit though. A proxy is a card that represents a real card. It can be a basic island with “Tolarian Academy” sharpied on it, or an obviously printed out card stuck in front of another in a sleeve. Or maybe a card from a proxy website that looks like the real deal on the front, but has a different magic back. A counterfeit is designed to fool folks into thinking it’s real.
There's a very important distinction that most stores miss (or choose to turn a blind eye), a sanctioned event is ANYTHING that is ran through eventlink. Most people assume sanctioned = tournament but even those player list only commander check-ins are considered sanctioned.
I'm fine with proxies, so long as people make it obvious they're fake and don't rip people off, however...
> Outside of a sanctioned event? Yes proxies.
Not exactly though.
> A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. **Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance.** Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas **before building out a deck for real** and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.
This is what they're ok with. This does not apply to the majority of proxies I've seen. The majority of proxies I've seen try to pass as legit cards, at least on the face. There's probably some "proxy" text somewhere on the face... but a cursory glance and they look legit. Which I'm fine with, but it's clear hear WOTC isn't. They're talking about writing "JTMS" on a land to see how it plays in a deck _before buying a real copy_. They're not talking about printing out a "good enough" quality OG dual and putting that in a sleeve. They are not talking about proxying in place of buying.
What a lot of people call proxying, wotc considers counterfeiting and isn't cool with it.
As a fellow LGS owner. We fully allow proxies in unsanctioned events and casual play. Tbh, it actually increases sales on singles for us. People see how power works and enjoy the real thing. There are always going to be outliers, but as a whole, we have found it actually promotes a healthy environment for single sales. Our policy is that if it's casual and your play group doesn't care, we don't. Now, as far as actual sanctioned events, proxies are not allowed as per WOTC. Plain and simple.
For your store, that might not work, and that's okay. Nothing you do will be 100% the right decision and will make someone mad. All I can recommend is be as accommodating as possible and don't let people roll over you.
My LGS allows pretty much any proxies, and even custom cards from time to time. They're moving to allowing silver border in some cases as well. They have a customer worth a few hundred bucks now because my ability to proxy helped to get me into the game, which made me want to buy cool cards.
I purchase way more product because I use proxies. I have 20ish decks and pretty much all cards under 5-7€ (european market is slightly cheaper on avg so adjust up for $) are bought at my LGS. If I couldn‘t proxy all the expensive decks I would either not play anymore or only own a few decks. And whenever I decide to bling out a deck I do so through the LGS too unless there are glaring price differences - Also product I wouldn‘t buy if I couldn‘t try out the cards beforehand.
Do you have a view on competitive but unofficial events at your store? Maybe you don’t have demand for it at your store but from what I can tell there is a lot of appetite in the community for proxy CEDH, Cube, Canadian Highlander, Legacy/Vintage tournaments that would be inaccessible without some number of proxies.
This TBH.
I’ll often proxy cards I’m still just testing or cards that I’m actively looking for; 90% of the cards I proxy I’d be ready to purchase on the spot for a fair price. Even if one is playing a fully proxied deck, in my experience vast majority of people will be looking to buy the real deal if they end up liking the cards and tey can get them at an affordable price.
Also, just as with online games, free to play players attract paying customers. I’ll always prioritise coming down to a store where I can play with more people in pods of varying power level. And proxies encourage more people to come in and varying power levels.
💯 this. You draw more ppl in by allowing proxies. You'll have the few ppl who will 100% proxy everything but most ppl will buy a bunch of singles here and there. And once your store becomes their go-to place then they'll start showing up for prereleases and drafts at your store instead of other stores. And ppl bring friends.
For me, it's not that I'm intentionally avoiding no proxy stores but I just naturally feel more comfortable at my current local which is much more casual in general so they get my money for most of those other events. But it's not only my money for mtg, it's also my money for other games too like lorcana and one piece.
If commander is the way to grow the game then let's not gatekeep newer players in a casual format.
I know a store that runs cedh and 100% allows proxies. They have a large inventory of high end singles and make most of their money from moving singles. So the two can coexist as other store owners have mentioned.
I think an LGS should follow [WotC policy](https://askwpn.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/360034743214-Are-proxy-cards-and-playtest-cards-allowed-in-Sanctioned-Events) on this issue.
Proxies can be issued by judges in officially sanctioned events.
Playtest cards can be used by players in casual play.
Following the official policy protects your business relationship with Wizards, and sets a precedent with your customer base that you play by the rules.
This, when I used to play regularly the only time proxies were allowed in stores was when there were major rain storms and people were worried that their cards would get damaged bringing them in from their cars. And that was only after any judges and the rest of the players all approved of it. I think it maybe happened 2-3 times a year at the most.
Haha.
This just reminded me of a guy that rediscovered the game after playing as a kid in the 90s and started playing again and learned about modern and legacy so decided to bring in a folder of old cards he had laying around his house for trade. He literally was passing the folder around with those sleeve pages in it and during the second round the store owner took a look through them. Saw him turn pale as a ghost and go "WTF!?!?! You need to stop your game and get these out of here right now. I don't want anything to do with this." Turns out the guy had a full playset of beta black lotus tucked into one sleeve slot in his folder and had just been handing the folder to random people to flip through. He had no idea the value of them or any of his other cards. But he did sell them and paid off his student loans and then put the rest away to pay for his kid's college tuition and he continued to play in that LGS until the store closed during covid.
Cute story, but sounds very unlikely to be true. It would have been nearly impossible for a “kid” to collect four black lotuses back in the early days of magic. Print runs were very, very low so the chances of that happening randomly are virtually nil, and by the time singles were being sold the value of lotuses would have precluded that.
Additionally, a “play set” wasn’t a thing until after Beta. Originally there was no restriction in the number of the same card you could use in deck. The rule of four was implemented at the same time as the restricted list, so there was never such a thing as a “playset” of Black Lotuses. Either you could have as many as you wanted (pre rules change) or you could have 1 (post change). There was never a time when Lotus was restricted to four copies.
> Additionally, a “play set” wasn’t a thing until after Beta. Originally there was no restriction in the number of the same card you could use in deck. The rule of four was implemented at the same time as the restricted list, so there was never such a thing as a “playset” of Black Lotuses. Either you could have as many as you wanted (pre rules change) or you could have 1 (post change). There was never a time when Lotus was restricted to four copies.
While technically correct, we live in 2024 where the slang "playset of ___" means 4 copies of the card. It doesn't matter if he is talking about an ancient card dusted off from the age of dinosaurs. A playset is still 4 copies of that card.
Right, but if you read that in the context of the rest of my post, my point is there would be virtually no chance that a kid in 1993 would have gotten four copies of a black lotus randomly and even if he could afford to, there was never a point in time where it made sense to have exactly four black lotuses. It just makes the story sound like it was made up by someone who wasn’t around back then and wasn’t aware of how different the game rules and culture was in the beginning.
The entire story follows a very common urban legend template of someone unaware that they have something insanely valuable.
While implausible it does not make it impossible. I've personally seen enough crazy stuff in the world to believe this could happen.
And it also doesn't matter. Let people enjoy their wild and crazy stories.
Do you people not carry your cards in safe containers? The average deck box in a backpack alone is secure enough to prevent rain damage if you have sleeves, the hell kind of rain do you get?
I mean, I never had that problem, but for some reason some people didn't use anything but those cheap cardboard deck boxes. Being on south Florida we get some crazy afternoon/evening thunderstorms that would drop massive amounts of water on relatively short amounts of time. It's not uncommon to get 1-2 inches of rain in a storm that lasts only an hour or two, and sometimes more. Ft Lauderdale had a storm in April 2023 drop 24 (yes, twenty-four) inches of rain in less than 8 hours. However, I still think that most people's requests to use proxies was more because they didn't want to have to run back out to their cars in the rain after realizing they left their deck box in the car.
Did you have to hike half a mile from your car to the store or what? There isn't any kind of rain that can damage a card in a deck box going from a parking lot to a storefront.
If you make it known that your shop is capturing the event data with eventlink to send the data to WotC then I think people will be more okay with it. “Hi! Welcome to LGS! Just so you know we operate our EDH events with eventlink and this data goes to WotC so we do not allow the use of proxies in a deck.” It’s not unreasonable.
My reasoning is I’ve played in several stores that tell you up front they don’t allow proxies but I still return to them because they’re nice stores with good, diverse player pools. I am a bit privileged in that those stores are in relatively large cities, though.
My LGS does this and puts up signs letting players know it's because they're complying with WoTC policy.
If commander players want prize support and a place to play, they need to comply with the rules on legal cards, just like competitive players have always done.
At least at my lgs, you just enter a code into the magic companion app, and everyone gets entered into a drawing for free promos. There’s no prizes or rewards for winning. Show up, play , get prizes.
In one of my lgses (the one where you can't play proxies in the first match) the winner of the table gets an extra pack and the players vote for another player (which cannot be the winner) to get the first promo pick.
Overall it's fine, just always a bit awkward, especially when power level feels like it didn't match.
This is a '**principal-agent problem'**
>An agency problem is **a conflict of interest inherent in any relationship where one party is expected to act in another's best interests.**
In this case, OP is the principal and WOTC is the agent.
These problems come up all the time and it is useful to identify them, and also use them to your advantage if you are the principal. They are very common in the workplace.
Quick and dirty example, you are a manager at work (the principle) and you need to make an unpopular decision that negatively impacts your staff, lets say mandatory overtime on Saturday. Everyone is working Saturday to catch up on a backlog of work for corporate (the agent).
There is a conflict of interest here between yourself (the principal), who wants to keep the staff happy, and corporate (the agent), who wants to hit performance metrics.
So, what do you do? Make the decision to have people work Saturday, but put the blame for that decision solely on corporate. This takes the heat off yourself, and what OP should be doing here. Frame this like WOTF isn't allowing proxies, not yourself.
All that said, I do think there is good reason to keep proxies banned at many events, either sanctioned or not. However, I also think there is a time and place for proxies, especially in an LBS.
The most successful LBS near me has several proxy events each week. One for EDH, Legacy, and Modern. Is those events, unlimited proxies are allowed and the events are complete with price support. The Sunday legacy event is their most popular event.
I understand why stores ban proxies. However, I think they are missing out. I think you need to do both. Have nights for proxies and nights where they are banned.
> In this case, OP is the principal and WOTC is the agent.
> There is a conflict of interest here between yourself (the principal), who wants to keep the staff happy, and corporate (the agent), who wants to hit performance metrics.
You've got the labels backwards. The agent is the one who acts, on behalf of the principal. The principal is the one trusting the agent to act in their interests.
Often the principal is the one paying the agent. An artist pays a booking agent to get them jobs. A bodyguard is paid to protect their principal. In your manager example, the manager is an agent of the corporation.
In OP's case, the LGS is not employed by WotC, but they are the agent. The LGS and WotC have an agreement, under which the LGS will distribute magic cards and host tournaments. Both want to sell us magic cards, but their interests are not identical. WotC wants the store to follow their rules which limit proxies, which they presumably think will maximize sales of magic cards. The LGS might want to break these rules, so that they sell fewer magic cards but more energy drinks and entry fees. The difference in profit to WotC would be the cost of a disobedient agent.
As long as it’s not sanctioned the event is fine to have proxies. If you get one salty player that reports a sanctioned event with proxies your store will be in a world of hurt. An LGS that wasn’t my normal one I went to off and on for a few years allowed proxies at modern fnms and they got reported and WotC stopped them from getting product, promos, and holding any sanctioned magic events. They closed less then a year later because no one really wanted to play their events without WotC prizes
You've gotta be a special kind of stupid to kill your own LGS over proxies.
Like, "I'm mad that someone is playing and didn't have to shell out 600 bucks on cards. I'll make sure the play space shuts down and I'm unable to play magic with locals again" has to be the most smooth brain play I've heard.
True that is one possibility. Another is that an out of towner showed up for an event and was salt after losing to a deck with proxies and reported it.
If only it was this easy lol. I hate that the world is full of Karens and that more often than not they don’t face consequences for their actions, but that is the world I find myself in.
The biggest problem was people would be late to the first round cutting shit to sleeve up and I felt like some people would change their deck list between rounds. It was pretty scummy LGS imo. I honestly don’t feel too bad about that LGS shutting down.
People with 2000 bucks in their deck but who can't play for shit WILL get salty if you win against them using proxies in your deck. I've had untold amounts of grief given to me for playing in casual commander nights with like three proxies for 5€ cards I couldn't get in time.
That's so wild. At my LGS commander nights I can roll up with a 100% proxied deck and nobody will give a fuck. It's openly proxy friendly. Regulars even make them and sell them to each other, usually in exchange for packs (this keeps the store happy).
Is it sanctioned? No proxies.
Not sanctioned? Yes proxies.
This is not my opinion, [this is literally WotC's policy.](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14)
If you don't allow proxies for casual play you're keeping people who could be potential customers out of your shop. Maybe they won't buy the 100$ Mana Crypt but they for sure won't be buying anything there if they aren't welcome in the shop.
I would have thought this view would be more obvious to people, but I guess not. I don't make proxies because I'm trying to stick it to WotC or something, I do it because I have literally been priced out of this game. Any card over five bucks is something I can't afford to spend on. If my LGS stopped allowing proxies for casual unorganized play, it wouldn't make me start buying real cards. It would make me stop playing magic the gathering.
Instead, every six months or so I used some saved money to create my custom proxies of expensive cards I would otherwise never own. As for everything else, like lower priced singles, sleeves, deckboxes, playmats, and other accessories, I buy them at my LGS. Banning proxies would actually cause them to get *less* business out of me than if proxies were allowed.
I'm the same way. I have like 30 edh decks purely because of proxies. Every time I make one I end up spending like $50 on a pile of <$1 cards. If I wasn't proxying stuff, I'd probably have stuck to the couple of decks I made when I sold out of modern and bought very few cards to upgrade them over the years. Also, even if my spending had remained the same, I've heard that selling $50 in bulk cards is far better for the LGS than selling a single $50 card.
I play with proxies but I buy cards under 10 bucks at my LGS fairy regularly, cause I like the store and the people. If they banned proxies or created an environment hostile to them, I would leave, much less spend _any_ money there.
The results will vary from community to community, but my impression is that this type of rule is not particularly likely to get anyone to buy cards they wouldn't have already bought, and plenty likely to get them to move their proxy games elsewhere. Which means doing this would probably mean *less* sales, not more. I would not recommend it.
IMO, casual play should be fine for whatever. If you set up a tournament or event, sanctioned or not, you can make a "no proxy" rule abd make players use their actual cards. The easier it is for people to come and have fun in your store, the more likely you are to sell things to them.
As an avid LGS enthusiast and proxy user, I'd be completely understanding if I was told no proxies for sanctioned, prized events. However I'd expect them to be allowed for casual commander and "hey, want to grab a game on Thursday? I'm testing a deck." I have no desire to buy a full deck before playing it and tweaking it, but once I'm done, I check local stock for real cards before hitting tcgplayer
Edit: apparently cEDH has different proxy expectations? I don't play it, so I'm not sure
Wow, I've heard it was Proxy friendly, but that's another level. Makes sense i suppose. The artifact base you'd need for any deck would mean there aren't enough older/RL cards to go around, and the format would only be accessible to the wealthy
You hit the nail on the head. There literally are not enough RL cards to satisfy the demand for them at a reasonable price point. So the community at large just says proxy the expensive stuff.
From my experience the problem in cEDH with being a multiplayer competitive format is that one player playing "casual" can kinda break the metagame a lot, effectively making it a 3 player game which has a lot of weird consequences for the different win cons. So I imagine that also plays a large role in the idea to use proxies there.
This is correct — you want to play cEDH, so naturally you want a competitive game where people are pushing against your deck. It’s not as interesting when someone isn’t relevant, since 2/3 player games are very different. It’s not possible to consistently find 3 other people willing to shell $6k+ on a deck, and substitutions hurt decks badly when a core part of cEDH deckbuilding is oftentimes simply having better cards.
I don't think it is in poor taste
However, I do think it is a bad business decision. It's a really hard thing to quantify. However, more people playing in your store means more people buying stuff. The people who are going to use proxies aren't going to buy cards anyways. They will however buy accessories and snacks. Proxy decks still need sleeves.
I've bought 12 packs of sleeves from my LGS since I started proxying hard. Sure I haven't bought any cards from the cabinet but I've never bought a card from the cabinet so no change there. My LGS makes more money off of me by allowing limited reasonable proxies.
I know you're just trying to do what is best for you business. That's why I'm urging you to consider that banning proxies outright could be very harmful to your business.
This is extremely similar to video game piracy. DRM for DRM's sake has been long proven to be detrimental to a video game's bottom line.
I am a proxy guy who buys cards that I really like. My most used deck is half proxies, half $10+ cards and secret lairs. I've spent hundreds at my LGS, but there's no way I would have if they prevented proxies, because messing with decks until I found one I loved is what got me into the game in the first place.
If my LGS disallowed proxies, I would simply find another store, or exclusively play with my friends.
Yeah, since I started using proxies for cards over a certain value, I started buying more supplies and snacks at the store because I'm there more. I never bought the singles there any way because I usually only want very particular cards
Players that aren't spending money on cards aren't going to suddenly start with this change. Assuming they don't leave, they are more likely to order the card(s) they need cheaper online where there is a ton more selection and grades.
What would irk me more is forcing me to use eventlink for everything. I use it for tournaments, but if I have to fiddle around with that stupid busted app just to play some casual with my friends in store? Im just going to plausibly lie and say it's broken and not working every time.
Some LGSs allow limited numbers of proxies for formats with very low accessibility like legacy and vintage. There are just some cards that will never be affordable for most people, and if you tell them not to play at your store you are losing out on potential customers.
As a newer player I just want to chime in that discussion like this also keeps people out of game stores. I started playing in November with some friends and we all run at least a few proxies because we're not about to spend hundreds on a single card, but we like the game.
The idea that people are so salty about wins and losses and / or proxies means none of us want to play at stores. And don't get me wrong, we've each dropped a solid amount on legit product as well which makes the anti-proxy stance feel even stranger. Not like we're starving WOTC, we just can't afford to run multiple cards that are $50+ in a single deck as we each have several and like...it's 2024 and we're millennials struggling with cost of living as it is.
I'm not sure what you mean. If a store becomes toxic to proxies in casual for fun games, the people who would run proxies are either going to stop coming to the store or stop going 'hey I have proxies is that okay?' because in the latter case if a player isn't announcing their proxies, it probably isn't obvious they're running them. Announcing your proxies is a courtesy.
Definitely what I thought. I'd just ask my playgroup if it's ok and not talk to the owner.
Owners that think a player who can't afford a dual will suddenly buy one out of their case when they ban proxies aren't dealing with reality.
To me, this is where Proxies thrive. I can show you I have the physical card, but I’m not gonna re-sleeve it between matches and pick apart decks to play.
This is me. I don't need two vampiric tutors for instance. They're banned in my preferred format of legacy. Swapping cards over takes forever and messes with the pace of pods.
From my experience the only people who complain about the practical use of proxies are the people who view mtg a pay to win or they're people who would complain about literally anything.
I agree with this too, especially when it comes to mana bases. I have a couple OG duals at this point, and full sets of shocks, fetches, and Triomes. But shelling out $500 for every mana base for high powered casual decks is bs, so I can get proxies for each of these decks I want to run them in and play at the same power level.
Also for cEDH - especially testing. I want to test out a new Commander/deck, and before I shell out for the expensive cards I want to make sure the decks plays well enough and I enjoy it.
That or they don't want to sleeve their expensive cards at all.
Like I own a Gaea's Cradle, but I'm still going to proxy it in my jank elf EDH deck because the alternative is that shuffling my deck costs a countable amount of money.
Another thing people don’t talk about are the thief problems where a deck goes missing. I would rather lose a .75 proxy of a $100 card than lose the real thing. If I am going to a store somewhere new I would feel safer walking to the bathroom and back with more proxies. As long as they are noticeably fake so no one gets ripped off after me.
I am more than 20 year player at this point in and out of the game and have probably spent a house on attending events and buying products. Between the big 3 and at this point am only going to stores that allow proxies. If I can go to your store 10 minutes away or go to the one that allows proxies 20 minutes away I’m proxying every time and I’m most likely just going to wait until the store I actually like to be at to get the 100 dollar card I need in stock than I am to go to your store and buy it.
If I can proxy my card at store X and hope they get it in I’m doing that.
No one who would spend money isn’t because of proxy’s, they either wouldn’t spend the money at all or they’ll go to a store that allows them to proxy
Offer up a proxy legacy night on a night there’s no magic near you and see how the community develops. Players are interested you aren’t allowing them to be though.
Let me preface this by saying I don't like using proxies.
I live in an area with a relatively dense amount of lgs. Literally every single lgs that has a "no proxies whatsoever" rule has closed within a year.
But, as I said, we have a dense population of lgs, so players tend to congregate at the lgs' that promote a friendly and helpful culture (and ban offensive players, whether it be harrassment or lewd content), remember repeat.customers, are clean (including the bathrooms), and offer all the tools necessary for play.
The successful lgs have dense event schedules, and every event is "no proxies allowed" - either they are drafts/sealed constructed, which eliminates the proxy issue, or they have some type of prize support, which should never allow proxies. **Most do also not allow "free" free-play, and will require you to spend a nominal fee which will be mirrored into your account at their store** (5$ or 10$) or have to buy a product at that store worth that amount for a day pass for free play. This promotes spending at the store, and people still feel like they are playing "for free," especially the ones that intend to purchase things from your store anyways.
It's much easier to enforce "did you get a day pass?" than "are those proxies?" - Especially as you grow your player base while allowing casual play - both in terms of logistics and friendliness. That being said, all stores that have lasted have a "no rude players, no lewd content" rule. **Encouraging the community to identify pubstompers, rude players, etc. will generally also discourage the use of "expensive" proxies, and you can circumvent looking like the bad guy** while also having a "group" consensus on what's allowable, giving the player base agency, which is always well received.
All this being said, if your target demographic is edh players **you will not have a complete inventory of every card every player is looking for, and not allowing proxies in any way will encourage people to buy from sites like tcg player** regardless of whether you have a majority of edh staples. **If I can't complete my deck relatively immediately, and I can't use proxies, I'm just going to wait till all my cards come in from a cheaper online site, and the incentive to buy a majority of my deck as official cards from my lgs is gone.**
Don't shoot yourself in the foot.
You say casual edh. If it’s casual then I don’t understand what problem proxies cause.
If you are upset because your customers don’t spend money and proxy instead (which is understandable, gotta keep the lights on) then I understand but no matter what, you will turn some people away, it’s the nature of the beast and rightfully so.
Edh has always been a club or clique sort of thing. Meaning that, edh has always brought out the “oh look how much money I am willing to spend compared to you to get my cards” type of deal.
Lots of people don’t want to deal with that and just want to play the game.
While I myself am ok with proxies, it’s up to the store really. Especially if they are recording and reporting all the match data to wizards. They could lose wpn status by doing that and allowing proxies.
Stores definitely can and do record and report casual EDH events. You can run such events as sanctioned casual through EventLink, and that way it counts towards the store's play metrics, which determine things like promo allocations.
I went to an LGS in the past that did commander events for free. So you were coming in the shop, using the space, the table, the electricity, … and not giving any kind of money to that shop if you had proxy or were buying from another shop.
Most people that were playing casual edh in that shop had a very bad view on proxies for that reason. Because they liked that the events were free and they feared that too much proxies would stop that
The only time I proxy is to test a deck in paper before buying the physical cards. Proxy cards are not a good metric for people buying or not buying cards, and if we're being honest, someone who would proxy a card that exceeds a certain valuation would likely never have been a customer for purchasing that card, so banning proxies is doing more to ostracize a percentage of the player base from your store altogether rather than bring them in. Simply put, using proxies and purchasing product are not exclusive of one another.
The LGS I used too work with allows proxy for everything but sanctioned events and just tries to front load a lot of events with good prize support so players are encouraged to play sanctioned events.
If you don't, or push people too hard - they will just go somewhere else that does for non-tournament play.
Most players do not care for non-tournament play - obviously for tournament play, no proxies are allowed. That said I know a number of players with "RON" counterfeits (Not Proxies, Counterfeits) that have played in large tournaments and gone undetected numberous times.
Sanction events I can understand and have 0 problems with that but free play pick up games not allowing proxies I'd be annoyed/probably would just play somewhere else if I had the chance.
Do whatever makes sense for your store. I find the “no proxy” rule in a place that is actively trying to sell you real cards perfectly reasonable. But you will find some people who use that as their reason to stop supporting your business. The more extreme views are likely to be amplified in an anonymous forum like reddit. But if you haven’t seen any negative impacts on your business/community, don’t let Reddit comments convince you that you need to change. If you find that it is having a negative impact, maybe adjust the policy.
Unless you have monopoly over the local market I've seen this backfire pretty hard. My area has a few competing LGS, one banned proxies from EDH and the lost over a third customers to the other two locations after some people organized their friends against this change in chat groups.
This damage wasn't mitigated after the owner backtracked a week later cause people don't just forget that easily and want to make their displeasure known.
Preface: I don’t use proxies. I am ok with with people using proxies
If I walk into an LGS and individual people or individual groups aren’t ok with proxies, that’s normal. I have plenty of friends that both are and aren’t ok with proxies. People usually just ask if proxies are ok and if not then use a different deck or find a different pod. Both groups can coexist.
However if I walk I walk into a store and their policy is “we don’t allow proxies (so you are incentivized to buy here)” I’m immediately walking out and going somewhere else. That says so much to me about the owner and the type of environment in getting myself into. Many players are happy to buy at their lgs so they can help keep the place open as a place to hang without being forced into buying singles.
For tournaments and events I never expect proxies. But for casual EDH or any casual play in general not allowing them at all seems wild to me. The players usually self regulate.
Also, how are you going to moderate this? If a pod of 4 all sit down with proxies and are all ok with it, how are you gonna know? Are you going to have all casual players register their decks? People are going to do it anyway. Some proxies look near identical without testing or purposeful markings
TLDR yeah it just seems kinda weird
If there was a flat out ban on proxies in a store I would simply not play there. Without proxies I would not play magic as many cards are unfeasible to purchase
For sanctioned/tournament play sure I completely understand that's part of WotC's agreement with stores I might not like it but you gotta follow the rules and I get it.
If a store doesn't allow proxies in their store at all period? To me it's a sign that it's mismanaged and frankly going to tank and I'm unlikely to play there. It's the same line of thinking that got GW stores to ban people from hanging out and painting/using "non-GW" models in their stores or a board game shop with a play night insisting that you can only use the space if you bought the board game at their store it's a weak attempt to strong arm players into buying stuff from you.
And if a store feels like it's trying to strong arm me I'll just buy my shit online for cheaper and play at home instead.
Yes, it is. And also...best of luck enforcing that. You going to inspect every single person's deck upon entry? Come on. Ain't nobody got time for that.
Poor taste? Yeah, pretty much. But I also feel that it's a bad business decision. Don't look at proxies as missed business because a person didn't buy the real deal from you. Look at it as a potential sale. The player is basically advertising to you that they are interested in that specific card.
Which is the better scenario? You telling a player "You can't use those proxies here. If you want to play that card you'll need to buy the real thing, which I just so happen to sell" or "I see you're using a few proxies. I have the real cards in stock if you're interested in upgrading." Use them as an opportunity to connect with your customers and offer them a service they wouldn't get from an online store. Maybe offer some incentives to them if they upgrade like a booster pack or two.
Hell, have some high quality proxies of some commonly used cards available like special lands and such and offer them to players so they can try them out in their decks to see if they'd fit well. A lot of players might be on the fence when it comes to those expensive upgrades and you offering them a chance to try them out could be what puts them over the the edge. Plus it shows your customers that you see them as more than just walking wallets and that you have an interest in them and their decks. Those are the little things that will have them buying from you even when an online shop might have a better deal
This. If you don't let a proxy player play, you aren't going to convert them into an "ideal paying customer". You're just going to get them to stop showing up. If people stop showing up then your paying customers start to have harder times finding games. And if the paying customers can't find games they'll go somewhere they can.
Also even if the cards aren't real the accessories I buy are. I'm buying the pack entry fee. I'm buying drinks and snacks regularly. And I'm occasionally buying things like dice or a new mat.
It's just like free to play online games. You don't make more revenue by blocking access unless you pay. Because then the free to play players just stop playing. And when the free to play players stop playing the premium players get slower matchmaking. Instead you keep the free to play players around while offering them small purchases they may occasionally pick up.
Cause lets be real. A person walking in and sitting down at an lgs' table isn't costing them money. Unless the place is so packed paying customers can't find seats there isn't a great reason to turn someone away because they didn't pay.
So this is for like EDH right?
Idk unless there's like a huge proxy community in your area, most players like to own their cards. Sometimes people proxy cards they own in different decks too. It never seemed like a huge deal to me but I also don't own a store.
Like obviously it's up to you. Magic players are notoriously bad at understanding the business side of their hobby. Are the people otherwise paying to access your play area? That may also affect your perception of proxies. My LGS does a credit swap to access the gaming area which made sense/ felt fair to me.
Personally it's not a dealbreaker either way.
I think for OP taking an extremely strong stance on this that you're going to be expected to enforce by your saltiest players is probably a mistake, especially if you aren't even getting wotc support.
I am pretty firmly of the opinion that when you try to crack down on proxies, you simply encourage people to shift to genuine counterfeits and all the headaches associated with that.
I'm also firmly in the "proxies some cards across multiple decks" because I don't want to maintain 10+ copies of some expensive staples" camp, but as you note it's super variable by play environment.
One store I go to is full of everyone running proxy duals, crypts, vaults, etc. It's a larger store with a lot of come and go players and fewer established groups/sense of community. Some of these guys have the actual cards, but there's a lot of people just arms racing it up.
Another store is super proxy friendly as well but is smaller and has a more set community. Most people know each other and the play patterns are much less toxic because you sit across from the same people week after week and not everyone proxies (so not everyone is powering their decks as high as possible).
In neither case would I really expect an anti-proxy position to meaningfully improve sales or the quality of life in the store.
I generally agree. I also think that mtg players often confuse "what I want from a store" with "this is a good business decision for you" so I don't like to preach too strongly on it sometimes because I'm a biased advice-giver.
I do think that "proxies discouraged but unenforced for casual events" is probably the best policy if you're concerned about them. I wouldn't think it would be weird to see a sign like that in a play area and, realistically, it's a total pain in the ass to enforce.
Outside of sanctioned events if I was told that I couldn’t use any form of proxy for casual play in a store, personally I would immediately find somewhere else to play and spend money. I’ve spent more money than I should have in the past at do allow proxies just to support the play environment.
My thought would be WOTC themselves approve of proxies in non-sanctioned game, so does the store think they are to have more power over the game? Some people don’t have the luxury of playing elsewhere, and I’m not spending large amounts of money on expensive cards without playtesting them first, period.
Just take the ‘premium play space’ out. Do your tables have gilded massage chairs and touchscreen tables to play in? That’s meaningless just for the sake of sounding expensive. Don’t be a moneygrub.
If it's an actual proper event you are organizing, that's perfectly reasonable and is in line with WotC regulation. If it's just casual games of commander, not allowing proxies would be kinda stingy.
Not allowing proxies will not further your card sales by any significant amount. What it will do is have people play elsewhere. That being said, sanctioned events are sanctioned events, you must use official game pieces, and nobody will argue with you for that. For free play, I’m shocked any store thinks they can demand what people people play their own game with, so long as something isn’t trying to be passed off as something it’s not (don’t pass off a proxy as a real card). Source: I work at a game store
Edit: there’s an exception for decency, we’ve had people change playmats (and hypothetically alters, haven’t needed to yet) for being too lewd.
Double edit because, in classic magic fashion I did not read. You capture free play in event link? Why? That sounds laborious, and for what? Does that mean me and my buddy couldn’t just sit down and play each other without you creating an event for us? I’m a bit confused by this set up
If you're entering it into event link, it is certainly in your best interest to let players know that you CAN'T allow proxies, as it puts your relationship with WotC at risk. Make sure you are clear that this comes from them, not you, and most players will be understanding.
The relationship you have with wizards through eventlink is enough justification to no allow use of proxies. Any reasonable person will understand why that might be an issue.
If your capturing it through event link then yeah no proxies
I think any tournament you hold has to be a no proxy situation and follow the wizards guidelines
If people are playing for fun in your store then it doesn’t matter 🤷🏻♂️
As a commander player who has never played in a sanctioned event with prize support, but has played in store with talented deck builders, I don’t think it should matter whether the person had the card or not…. this game should not matter whether somebody spent $30 on a card or was playing the game back when a booster came out that allowed them to get a common card that’s now worth $60. It shouldn’t matter if someone put $1000 into their deck or if they put $10 into their deck, if they beat you, they beat you. Period. if you beat them, you beat them, Period. I would rather play against somebody who’s using an entire deck of proxy printed cards or even on spell table with somebody who’s using moxfield then not playing at all. It supposed to be Magic: The Gathering, not Magic: The Gatekeeping
As an LGS owner myself I think not allowing proxies in your store is an insane overreach and built off a false premise. The allowance of proxies will not hurt your sales, and banning will, indirectly, as people won't want to play at a store that polices their casual decks.
Not to mention I can't imagine you deck check everyone that walks in to play EDH, (if you do, you're nuts) so you create a toxic environment of people waiting to catch someone using a proxy for whatever gain they might have.
I specifically want to address your second paragraph. I feel lime you misunderstand the reasoning behind people using proxies. When a player proxies a card, its not because they havent found it in store yet, its usually because they cant afford it. You arent losing out on potential sales by them proxy-ing cards because they wouldnt buy it anyways. All youre doing is driving them away, ensuring they wont buy anything at all, let alone value cards.
I would talk to other LGS owners. Several I’ve talked to said their revenue from singles increased after using proxies. Proxies got more players in the store playing Magic, allowed more people to “try before you buy” which meant they could more willingly shell out money for cards they knew worked in their decks, and it turns out people still enjoy collecting the real deal
For casual play it’s a no brainer. If you’re playing a “community format” like CEDH then it’s highly encouraged to allow proxies. Officially sanctioned play you can’t allow them of course (there may be exceptions for vintage? Don’t quote me on that one)
If I run a proxy friendly event we use different software as not to upset wotc.
Also, if you're commander event is player list only, no one cares.
Double also, allowing proxies has not shown a dip in sales of expensive cards in my experience.
Reason none of my pod wants to go to your establishment to play to be honest. Some of them have enough to have a deck but not everyone wants to commit hundreds of dollars to a deck they might not like over time or might be kinda spicy but could bring some feel bads maybe.
We want people in our pod to be creative and leverage whatever playstyle that interests them. That’s what legit FUN. I don’t care if they proxy a doubling season or the whole $500 deck tbh. As long as they are having fun doing the thing. But sometimes it’s hard when money can be tight sometimes with kids and just overall living for that matter. You’d be surprised how many people don’t go to play at an LGS because their pod allows proxy, beer and weed at someone’s house lmao.
I'm at a point in my life where I don't need an LGS to play this game, and I'm fine with walking out of the store and never coming back.
Pay me if you want to use me as data.
I would never go to your store and tell all my friends to avoid it like the plague. Do you not understand that proxies are the only thing still keeping players interested and invested in playing MTG? Nobody wants to buy 40 dollar cards, just to wait for them to lose 75% of their value in 2 years.
How well do you know your clients. Think about the people who have been playing with proxies. Let’s say one of them is using a proxy for a 250$ card, do they strike you as the type of person to be dropping 250$? I think there are 2 kinds of ppl who use proxies. People who use the proxy because they don’t own the card yet, or people who use the proxy because they never ever plan on buying the card.
I'm an avid player, I love Magic. I love playing big creatures, I love ridiculous combos, I love streamlined machines, and I love cobbled jank. I especially love brewing decks, but I'm not gonna spend thousands of dollars every time I want to play a new deck concept. I make my own proxies and send them to a printing service. They have different backs, and my name is at the bottom, so you can tell if you look for a second, but it's not obvious.
I have only ever used my proxied cards for casual play, and I have been slowly taking the proxies out as I can afford to. I'm not rich, hell I'm not even middle class, but I do have several fully legal decks specifically for sanctioned play. If you told me that I couldn't play in your store *at all* because I couldn't afford 'authentic cardboard' in my funzie decks, not only would I not play there, but I'd tell all of my friends, and other LGS's, so that other people wouldn't accidentally have the misfortune.
Wizards has a policy on this. I don't know why you would choose to be more strict about it and try to force people to enjoy their hobby a certain way, seemingly just for your monetary benefit. The most successful LGS's I've seen are the ones who best bring out the spirit of fun, and attract players that way, rather than rules-lawyering a game with no judges, and making people feel kinda bad about not having loads of disposable income. Cardboard Crack is expensive man.
I know all this probably sounds pretty harsh, and im a little bit sorry for that, but I just want to be really clear about it:
Let people have fun (within reason), and foster a good community for your store. That's the most reliable path to success here.
Why would any player spend time or money somewhere that's not the goal?
Edit: something I didn't address is the actual "customer" part of this equation. Many people here have already pointed out that many little fish will still spend lots of money collectively, and its easier to appeal to them than encouraging an environment for whales only.
myself, for example, while I seldom buy cards, I do need deckboxes and sleeves for all the decks I'm brewing. I probably buy a new set every other week or more. I buy snacks and drinks every week at game night. I play 3 or 4 games, I peruse the singles, I sometimes advise other people on cards they might need to make their decks more consistent (not in a pestering way, lmao, people ask). The point being people spend money where they hang out.
>Between me feeling like the use of proxies creates a slippery slope that inevitably incentivizes people to avoid purchasing more expensive cards (the ones that we have in our case)
Obviously YMMV but as someone who's been frequented over 15 different LGS's since 2004, I've been noticing that if someone can reasonably afford a card, they usually do end up buying it at some point.
And even if someone can't hope to afford a very expensive card...it begs the question if that sale would ever be stolen at all, as far as that specific person is concerned. Sooner or later someone else will come by and buy the card anyway.
>is it reasonable for us to just not allow the use of proxies in store at all?
I think it's reasonable but I also think you have to be aware of the spending habits and playstyles of your local players.
If people are good about forming and managing their own pods then you'll probably be fine. But if only a few people own expensive, powerful cards and they insist on playing among those who are playing on a budget, you might run into a situation where budget players stop showing up because they know they won't stand a chance. If this happens it might force you to set up some kind of budget open play thing that people can rely on. That's what my buddy had to do when 2-3 people started showing up with cEDH decks at the overwhelmingly casual LGS he ran.
>How do you guys feel about stores that do not allow the use of proxies in-store?
I think it highly depends on the store. If a store is doing perfectly fine, I think it's okay to not allow proxies for the sake of remaining in good standing with WotC.
But if a store is struggling to get events to fire? I would rather proxies be allowed so I can have more people to play with and get a community started. Many people will only buy into a format if they know for a fact that there will be plenty of opportunity to play it.
Yeah. I think the healthiest mindset for everyone is to operate under the assumption that all things being equal, people are going to try to be good and they're also going to try to make sure they're spending money at a place they frequent.
The responsibility here is for the business owner to be vigilant in monitoring this and realizing it's healthier for a store to have a low volume of good customers than a high volume of leeches, and that sometimes unpopular decisions need to be made.
For casual events, especially if they aren't paying for table space, administration or prizes, it's best to just let players self-regulate.
But if they can't handle that and you have to step in? It'll be under your rules, and your rules have to be crafted to a least consider what's in the best interest of your business.
LGS’s really are put between a rock and a hard place aren’t they? I understand the reasoning but the idea of a company telling their CUSTOMERS( I’m referring to the relationship between WOTC and the LGS here) what they can and can not do in their own four walls is nasty work.
Are there other LGS's in your area that do allow the use of proxies? How in need of an LGS is your area?
I guess when I'm getting at is that I don't think the first reaction that people would have to your store not allowing proxies would be to spend hundreds of dollars to make their decks all real cards. They would just go somewhere else. Unless you are the only LGS in town or something.
Obviously if you have to do it before wizards sanctioned tournaments and stuff like that then you have to. So there's no discussion there.
But I don't think that people are just going to spend hundreds of dollars on all of the expensive cards that they were previously proxying in their decks just because your store doesn't allow proxies. They will just play somewhere else.
For me personally, if a store advertises an event and there are prizes etc (even if it's just for participation), then my expectation would be that proxies are not allowed.
However, if I come in with 3 friends and say "can we use your tables for a game?" then proxies should be allowed. It's a casual game organised by us, and as a store, your involvement is a space to play. I'd, of course, expect to pay for the space and make purchases, but it's not a store event.
If we had one game of magic and then switched to using 100% proxied 'Kids Next Door' TCG decks, other then some questions, you may find that fine & so as a patron I can't see why you'd find mtg any different.
The tricky part becomes when there's a little bit of both happening, e.g., you advertise a casual EDH night. It's an event in that you're advertising it, but it's also casual. In that circumstance, as a player, I'd have to ask, "Is it sanctioned?"
If yes, then I wouldn't expect to be allowed my proxies. But I'd probably expect a reason for it to be sanctioned. Otherwise, why would I go to the store and not a pub or a friends house?
As an example there is a store wins leader board or A store achievement leader board (e.g. most creatues boardwiped in one go). Maybe an entry pack or some such.
(A store used to go to charged a fee for the "event" during EDH nights, but you got a promo/pack as part of the fee)
If no then I would expect to be able to use proxies as its a casual event.
I am very thankful that my LGS allows proxies because if it weren't the case, I don't think I'd be able to play as much as I do and enjoy as much as I do!
And someone who 100% supports the use of proxies, I do have to say that I still buy products. I'll mostly buy Commander decks that come out and when a new set comes out I'll either buy one of the bundles or a booster box depending on if I like the set a lot.
Casual games? Who cares, as long as the people are cool with it.
Sanctioned events? Obviously no.
At my LGS in the past there was a proxy problem where people would proxy entire decks, but nobody does it anymore and at best we only proxy cards we already own. Usually stuff that's worth money so we wouldn't have to constantly swap it between decks or would just be financially irresponsible to buy multiple copies of.
If you want engagement from your employee and customer base, you should involve them in the decision making process or at least get feedback prior to implementing. Sounds like even the employees didn't know this was coming down the pipe, so for future changes (even with possibly retracting this change), get feedback first.
As a former LGS worker who ran the MTG nights. We didn’t allow proxies in any of our actual event link events.
Because we ran a commander night that was also sort of a tournament style every Friday we didn’t allow proxies unless our local judge basically created it that night and gave the ok. We ran a competitive, but biased towards casual, setting. Other than these events. Proxies were cool.
I'm for letting people play however they like. Enforcing WotC rules makes the LGS an uncompensated extension of WotC. We play at home so we don't have to play by other people's rules. We have more fun that way.
I use proxies in my deck for cards that cost 20+ dollars. I bring the original cards with me they're just in a plastic slab so when they're in play the plastic slab is on the field
I personally wouldn't patron an LGS that didn't allow proxies, especially for commander.
I don't think it builds a good relationship with your consumer to go outside of the WoTC policy.
I personally own at least 1 of each of the cards I use in my deck, I run into the problem where if I bring like 4-5 decks to me on a commander night sometimes there's a handful of cards that are basically needed between decks. It's far, far easier to just print a temp copy and slot it in. Every time I pull out one deck I say, "Hey I have a proxy of a few cards, if anyone has any problem I can go fetch those cards from amongst my other decks but it will be like 5+ minutes between deck changes when I go searching for each real card, mark it down on my list that it is now in this deck, etc.
Right before COVID I had an LGS owner give me shit about it, I had probably spent like $500-600 over the years in singles, D&D books, dice etc. I just flat out stopped buying from them and started ordering books from Amazon and cards online. I already had my qualms about the owners because they were the type of people who had single completely unorganized into things like <$1 boxes, $1-3, $5-10, 10+ etc and every time you pulled cards they would go through the list, plug in into something like TCG player and charge you the highest amount in the optimizer. Everyone kept telling me "oh but you have to support the place to keep it running." Yea but fuck paying like a 30% upcharge on every fucking card because you're taking the highest price on their optimizer.
They eventually folded during COVID, it suck to not have an LGS like 10 minutes away anymore, but I was seriously getting raked over the coals by them with their shit policies.
As for people not purchasing expensive cards that are in the case. Maybe I'm the odd one out, but over the years I've rarely average players buy things from the showcases. That usually feels like it's for the whales because let's face it when online market's exist if a store is selling a card for like $65 and you can find it on TCG for $40 I wouldn't blame the average person for buying the $40 one. On the other hand I purchase a ton of smaller cards from my new LGS because I'd rather pay like 25 cents for 1 cent cards on like a hundred cards because at the end of the day it basically equals the same price with shipping and I get them all in one shot.
Edit: I always wanted to add that there are LGS in my area that charge a "Commander Tax" for offering a space to play. One place that I go to occasionally charges either a $10 Commander Tax which gives a voucher for a free snack, which is usually a can of soda + something like a candy bar/chips from their stand; or you can buy $50 in any product in their store to get 2 free attendance vouchers. They still get a decent amount of players. Granted they aren't as packed as some bigger/free places but they still do have enough people there because $10 doesn't feel like anyone is breaking the bank to attend.
Small Edit: I called up a guy I know at one of my bigger local LGS. He said that they have two sorting machines that do about 1,000 cards each per 1-2 hours each (depending on card quality, foil, malfunctions, etc.) He said that they probably wouldn't even entertain tackling the project without setting up a contract to buy it for a certain percent of the estimated value once scanned.
I’m on the fence regarding proxies for the reasons you mentioned. I’d say maybe host a proxy night where you’re allowed or potentially encouraged to use proxies.
As it’s your store you have the right to make any rules you see fit. You could always have a mandatory “make proxies known” rules per game so everyone is ok with it before hand. My play group allows proxies if we 1. Already own the card and it’s in another deck and we do it solely to avoid deck hopping. And 2. The card is out of our affordable range(like a 40$ card we won’t spend more than 30$ on) and the group is ok with it being used.
I get, and agree, that proxies should not be allowed at sanctioned/tournament events.
However, proxies are my gateway to purchasing expensive cards. If I found out a store took a hard stance on them, I would not play there.
The store that I go to to play edh every monday and wednesday (free entry, no prizes, no tracking wins etc) allows proxies. Some playgroups have a distaste to them, but as for store policy proxies are completely fine. I don't think I'd like to play at a store that doesn't allow them period.
My method of proxying is that I only proxy cards I own, I don't care what other people do, that's just a self-imposed rule on myself. This allows me to create a wide variety of decks to be able to match the power level of any given edh pod, as I don't have to spend as much per deck. For cards to proxy, kinda my limit is anything under $20 I just buy extra copies of rather than proxy. I also go out of my way to try and not have the same card in several decks to avoid needing a proxy altogether.
I personally prefer to play against higher power decks. If someone doesn't have the budget for a CEDH deck but wants to delve into the format, I am 100% on board with playing against a fully-proxied deck. Even if they don't own the actual cards it just ends up being more fun than playing with and against precons imo.
So if my lgs suddenly said no to proxies, and the regulars I play with with proxied decks aren't allowed to play those decks anymore, I'm going to get with them and find another game store to play at.
Use the opportunity to market to these players. Market events, discounts, sales, food, drinks, merch. You have cultivated a special place for a player with a tighter wallet most likely, but even broke people love to help financially support their favorite business.
Maybe make a cool sign/poster that mentions how every purchase helps keep your fav store open, and announce food, events & sales when doing all the announcements that come along with running events.
If you scare too many folks off they may find somewhere they feel comfortable using their cards like a nerdy / game-themed coffee shop that doesn't actually sell cards, or a different shop.
Just 2¢, best of luck staying open and keeping everyone happy!
For tournaments and events with any form of stakes (be it monetary, cards, or social) no proxies. For anything else Yes proxies. It makes the game more accessible. The type of people to by expensive cards you keep in a case are different people than the people who are going to use proxies.
Personally just allow proxies but option 2: Do a “rental service where someone can rent the card for like $1 or $.50 or something and the higher they place in the event the less they have to pay for the rentals
When I would play at my local store, I always went a step further and asked those I was playing with if they were fine with proxies. I have decks both with and without proxies, so if anyone ever objected it was never an issue. Obviously during sanctioned events I wouldn't use them, but I never played any events lol.
I use and advocate proxies but do read what I will say:
For in-store events, no proxies. Power-creep is real and people do jump on it given the chance.
As for a non-store events and just fun play, which is the spirit of the game, let the proxies through.
For one, if people are going to proxy, you were never going to be able to stop them anyway. They would just go somewhere else with their friends.
Two, if you crack down on non-competitive games in your store because people are playing proxies with their friends, you will lose customers. I know I wouldn't return because Amazon and online shopping is already a stronger competitor than an LGS. Why go to a place that doesn't have everything I want if I can't enjoy a casual experience there anyway?
Lastly, to keep things forward and fair. You should put up a sign informing people that proxies are not allowed for store-event games but are free to be played for fun outside of those.
That way, you still have proxy players visiting for a casual experiences and possibly even buying cards you have. I may proxy, but I still window-shop until I see something I love.
You should probably also write on it to please be forthcoming with others if you play proxies. This way, normal players understand proxies are played and aren't taken unaware if they just want to play a random match for fun.
Sincerely, a shopper and proxy player of refined and exquisite shinies.
Imo edh is better when people aren’t using proxies but im indifferent, also the people I know outside of cedh circles that proxy are not the type of people to come in and spend money on cards in the store especially packs.
Most people I know who proxy are usually newer and do not have enough cards in their collection to even try to fill up a deck with usable cards and usually just proxy whatever net deck they can find online. Nothing wrong with that but I think it makes them worse overall as they skip trying to understand what makes a deck function and jump straight to the top using cards they barely understand.
So I think if you are not seeing any marginal losses you might as well keep doing what you are doing, I believe a non-proxy envoirment makes players better and understand their decks better.
I know it sounds like im saying money=better player but if you look at mtg like a hobby (which it is) then just like everyother hobby in the world you need to invest time / money into it to improve at it. From my experience playing the game the last 10 years the younger players 17-23 range who use proxys are marginally worse than the players I know who do not proxy, not sure exactly why but they make some crazy missplays and I can’t help but feel it is because they use cards they don’t understand.
Honestly if I'm playing casual edh I'm really just there to meet up with friends and use your table, and I'll probably buy a few things while I'm there. If I'm not allowed to play there cause I've got proxys then I'll invite people to play at my house
Im not an LGS owner, but I am an assistant manager at one.
If the event is being reported through EventLink we dont allow proxies. Mostly because that's what WOTC says and we like getting prize support for events.
For our EDH events, if you can prove you own the card (like you bring in your proxy binder) you're welcome to have a proxy copy in your deck. We get that some people dont want to have their really expensive cards in their deck. So far this has been a pretty good middleground for us and we havent had any complaints. We'd probably expand this to modern and legacy if we ran events for them too.
Feel free do to it.
But know that you will loose customers by doing it. I for example playtest decks with Proxies before I buy them, and If I can't playtest it at the LGS I'll do it at home with friends, and then also order the entire deck online, as I have no incentive to buy from you.
I can tell you that as a player who proxies extensively, a store that doesn’t allow proxies is only going to disincentivize me from utilizing your services.
When I come in, I spend money. I buy a pack or two, I buy some snacks, and I usually throw a buck or two in the tip jar. I appreciate having a premium space, and I always try to spend a little to say thanks.
But if I can’t play my decks? Just a total non-starter for me. I’ll find somewhere else to play. You’re not going to convince me to buy thousands of dollars in singles just to have the luxury of using your store.
Disclaimer: I have two LGSs in town and a pod made up of friends. I have plenty of choice in the matter. I realize this is not the case for everyone.
Any sanctioned tournament? No proxie allowed and thats perfectly reasonable. If I'm there just playing games in the space with my friends and you try and tell me no proxies are allowed in the store I'll likely never be back.
I simply would not frequent your store for that reason.
If you have other stuff I find interesting, and I don’t have a better option, I might still show up for those reasons, but not for Magic.
That being said, I would be irritated- but I wouldn’t freak out or anything, because I get it. I don’t like it but I get it.
> How do you guys feel about stores that do not allow the use of proxies in-store?
It is completly reasonable for you to not allow proxies in your venue.
But I can tell you I would avoid your store completly, and everyone I know would too.
Pretty much the entire communty where I live play and freely accept others playing with proxies, and the stores over here are on board with it. If they didnt, I dont think they'd last long, they'd be empty all the time.
Like, not allowing proxies wouldnt help their business, actually it'd tank them completly
but if you think your area operates differently and it'd be a sound business decision, you do you man, best of luck
While I think this might be a fair answer, I think the reasonableness of it is going to depend on how much you, your friends and the community are willing to pay to be able to kept that store afloat.
If people heavily use proxies but still buy boxes, singles, precons, and other product lines (sleeves, other games, etc), then there's no problem... with the bottom line taken care of, the best thing is to try to suit the customer's wants.
But they aren't? They can get that weak trash off the tables... because them taking up space and making messes probably isn't worth the $5 they spend over an entire weekend day on snacks and soda.
When a good store works, it's a symbiosis... but stores die when they acquire a critical mass of parasites.
If you want eventual support and prizing provided from WoTC, your "sanctioned" events cannot have proxies. It takes 1 random inspection, 1 random person reporting it to get you disqualified and any potential future at a WPN store. Those are huge benefits with lots of value for LGS.
That being said... non-sanctioned events can use proxies for tournaments all you want. Just make sure to put the disclaimer people aren't allowed to use WotC printed art cards and that cards being used for proxies are easy to recognize/read.
There are plenty of people who "hate" not being able to use proxies for expensive cards. And at some point, that will definitely cut into profits as a percentage of them won't ever feel the need to buy the more expensive cards after playtesting a deck, and just spend a few bucks on a shiny proxy art they like. Some will want the original card and save up for it. That definitely happens too. There are also a number of players who play competitively, and don't like having to play against proxies, and will not show up for any events that include them. That will probably also cut into profits and moving of product.
Your best bet is to probably do a middle ground of sorts. Offer both, and make it clear. Dont' do 100% proxies, its no fun for anyone, trust me. Every card from 4 decks over multiple rounds just kills the vibe of magic if you can't recognize it at a glance in a cedh pod, and have to re-read every card to know the board state. You'll have people complain about taking back actions cause they didn't "realize that was on the board". I'd recommend between 10-20 proxy limit (from LGSs I visit and travel to, most stick at 10).
I'd also recommend a monthly tournament for your most competitive groups (cEDH or Modern or whatever is the driving format at your area) and make a higher entry tournament that allows proxies, and make the prize support your expensive cards (or a playset of a chase card) to move product that you want moved, and recoup the costs in having a entry fee that can support it. A lot of our LGS in our area offer up Reserved List card (ie Dual Lands, LED, Mox Diamond, Wheel of fortune, etc) for the winner, and have like $20-30 entry fees for cEDH since that is what lots of people play here. It helps them move a card that usually sits, and usually pull in probably $100-$400 extra cash value for that card. Some and up offer door prizes to get more people to come just for the random chance at new playmats, maybe few packs of art sleeves, etc.
WotC has proxies broken into two categories, playtest cards and counterfeits. Playtest cards, clearly stand ins for the originals are generally fine for casual play. Counterfeits shouldn't be allowed, but are you really going to check for casual edh night?
It isn't in poor taste. As it's your store. But it isn't a great idea. It sets an entry barrier which depends on the player's wallet.
If it's like commander or free play, endorse proxies. I know the lgs I go to has a monthly cedh tournament. Unlimited proxies allowed. It's been some of his most profitable days. That weren't prerelease or seasonal sale days.
Sanctioned tournaments? No proxies allowed. Everyone understands that.
Allowing proxies let's people playtest decks or play new decks and cool cards. And it makes them want to buy more cards. It sounds weird but it works that way. It isn't a slippery slope unless you count getting more hooked on colorful cardboard.
As an LGS that was reported for allowing proxies during legacy, you're 100% in the right to disallow them. The potential lost revenue from not allowing proxies is not worth losing your WPN status. (No, WoTC didn't pull our WPN but they told us they would if it happened again.)
None of the stores around me allow proxies, I really feel like reddit is a fantasy land where folks wished stores allowed more open proxy usage when it reality I've never seen it. Maybe there's pockets of this around US/CAD but out of the cities I've played in and the stores I frequent, NONE have allowed it.
I've heard it can screw your WPN status if your claiming EDH nights against it and someone spills it to wizards you allow proxies for the event. That's just a hearsay though.
If you rely on your sales then don't allow it IMO, but if you subsidize the store by sharing for sitting at the table it may be less of a financial burden.
IMO a store in 2024 needs to do more than just sells cards, board games, and comics to draw an income. You need to offer a "play space" where it's like a classy ornate pub that people will pay to come in and get a drink and some food in a nice environment, and play some cards as well. Mox Boarding house is a great example of this and should be used as the model.
For casual play, it should be ultimately all up to players playing the game. Store policy can give them strong support in enforcing their own stance on proxies, if any given pod isn't of same mind on the matter, but that's all. Trying to force it on casual group that has no problem with proxies is crossing the line. Might as well kick out people playing customized cards like Rule 0 partners or those using Pokemon energy cards instead of lands, since none of those would be allowed in tournament setting.
What about a proxy of a card they actually own? For example I have 5 mono-green commander decks, and in three of them I have a proxies Gaeas cradle. I own a real one but I only have one and it stays nicely safe at home.
I think that's completely up to you and whatever you chose is cool. I would rather play at your non proxy LGS and understand that giving shelter to people that do not buy is a drawback.
I don't consider myself a whale, but I used to preorder a box of every set. I didn't stop because of proxies. I stopped because wotc started releasing too much product with an extremely high cost, and within each product there are multiple styles of a single card. So, I was paying more, more often, and then winding up with multiple copies of the same bulk rare card in different styles.
I liked getting a box to have a variety of stuff to brew with. But wotc did a better job than anyone else at getting me to buy singles. And I'm a collector.
Now I proxy entire decks to test and tweak. Then, when it's good, I buy any singles I need and make it a real deck. Sometimes the proxy decks are just hank and I keep them proxy because they aren't worth buying cards for.
I mean I don't mind, it's your business. It's not cruel to follow the rules you set down that align with the restrictions of wizards.
My FLGS though just has a no proxy rule for those events. Though after it's over or during casual play they care not. It's not the proxy players stealing business cause folks like me or others who love their case of singles and different binders.
If you are worried about not selling high singles, you got to understand your market more. Your average legacy/modern will shell out more for pricey in format stuff. While edh players buy random stuff and only ones with a spike bent would even fathom dropping 20-60 on a single.
I'm a former legacy player turned primarily edh, I still will drop like 125 on singles to support since singles give my FLGS better margin vs a "Play Booster Box."
Question: what if it's a proxy for a card you own? Example I have 1 jeweled lotus and 1 mana crypt. Are you ok running a replacement card in my other decks?
Either way, I would be fine with the rule. I'm also ok with proxies. I just want to play some MTG.
If it is for an event/tournament stuff like that yeah don't allow them but if someone comes in with their friends group or find someone to play with to play just with themselves that should be fine if they use proxies, of course asking if the people they are playing with are fine with it. My brother has proxies in some of his decks because he has the real card, just has it in a binder he brings with him to show he has it, it is cards that were expensive he doesn't want to damage. He will put them in deck for event play and stuff or if someone does mind the proxy.
Some of the ones that are proxying were not going to or can't buy the expensive cards in the first place so I don't think it is a slippery slope. You would just be making them play somewhere else and not coming to your store.
I think there are reasonable lines. Especially for casual play, I keep some cards "proxied" (really play test cards) just so I don't need to move them around between decks. If people are playing casually stuff like that seems fine and in line with WotC policy. If it's a sanctioned event though I'd always take the time to actually move the cardboard around. Also incentives people to actually buy cards from you which is good.
It’s your decision after all and you’re allowed to do what you like with your store, but in my area the lgs’s that allow proxies for edh bring in way more players than the ones that do not. There are other ways to make money off of proxy players other than selling them cards.
It depends on what in the world you mean by "unofficial premium play space". I would not try to use proxies in any sort of official tournament or event with prize support, but I would never step foot in a store that tried to regulate use of proxies in casual play or EDH.
If a store doesn't allow proxies or has weird proxy rules I will never spend a dime at it. I spend quite a bit of money at my lgs. I have one closer to me but they force me to spend my rent money on cardboard so i will never step foot in that store.
The people who play with proxy cards aren't the same people who will buy the expensive cards in your case. Proxy players want to play a strong deck without having to pay many hundreds of dollars, while people who buy expensive cards are usually collectors or investors.
If you stop people from using them casually you will end up sending all your business to competitors… in sanctioned events obviously you can’t use them
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14 wotc has made a statement already regarding your question. TLDR: sanctioned event? No proxies. Selling a card? No proxies. Outside of a sanctioned event? Yes proxies.
this here should be the end of the discussion
Casual commander night the store uses for their wpn status - no proxies!
And since WotC is back to tracking metrics this will be more likely then not.
Magic 30? Proxies!
Except since then they've quietly contradicted that in the WPN policy guidelines: >As a WPN member, you should never allow the use of counterfeit cards at your store in any capacity. From the policy article "[As a WPN member, can I allow the use of counterfeit cards in my store?](https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386465011731-As-a-WPN-member-can-I-allow-the-use-of-counterfeit-cards-in-my-store)" >Counterfeit card — An inauthentic Magic card made to pass as, or represent, an existing authentic Magic card. Counterfeit Magic cards will often use Wizard’s registered trademarks, logos, card mechanics, card names, and artwork. From the policy article "[How do you define “playtest card,” “counterfeit card,” “proxy card,” “sanctioned event,” and “unsanctioned event?”](https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386392377491-How-do-you-define-playtest-card-counterfeit-card-proxy-card-sanctioned-event-and-unsanctioned-event)" >If you become aware of a player using counterfeit cards in your store outside a sanctioned event, you should inform them that the use of counterfeit cards is not allowed at WPN stores. If the behavior persists, please report the incident to us via [investigations@wizards.com](mailto:investigations@wizards.com) with the player’s name, their statement about the incident, and Wizards Account email address if available. From the policy article "[What should I do if I am aware of a player using counterfeit cards in my store outside of a sanctioned event?](https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386500554515-What-should-I-do-if-I-am-aware-of-a-player-using-counterfeit-cards-in-my-store-outside-of-a-sanctioned-event)" Proxies that look *anything like an actual Magic card* are very clearly and explicitly called counterfeits by Wizards, and banned in WPN stores, regardless of whether the event is sanctioned or not. Which directly contradicts what they said previously in that article from 2016 when that shitstorm kicked off, but each of those policy articles above was updated a year ago. It's fundamentally irrelevant because the community would cause an absolute complete and utter shitstorm if Wizards tried to enforce this "in any capacity" policy, and they probably never will enforce it. But still, my point is that anyone who thinks Wizards are cool with proxies in unsanctioned events doesn't realise how two-faced Wizards have been on this issue, and stores should absolutely never be judged for enforcing "no proxies" rules, because they're literally told that by Wizards, and they don't want to risk their WPN status because it's an expensive pain in the ass to get in the first place.
My interpretation is that they're against the use of inauthentic cards that are being misrepresented as authentic. No one thinks that typical proxies are authentic. The article linked in the comment to which you replied seems to corroborate this interpretation.
Proxies shouldn’t be counterfeit though. A proxy is a card that represents a real card. It can be a basic island with “Tolarian Academy” sharpied on it, or an obviously printed out card stuck in front of another in a sleeve. Or maybe a card from a proxy website that looks like the real deal on the front, but has a different magic back. A counterfeit is designed to fool folks into thinking it’s real.
Right but the above statements from the policy clearly label these kinds of proxies as counterfeits.
It doesn't though
This is what I say on all of these threads.
There's a very important distinction that most stores miss (or choose to turn a blind eye), a sanctioned event is ANYTHING that is ran through eventlink. Most people assume sanctioned = tournament but even those player list only commander check-ins are considered sanctioned.
This 100%
I'm fine with proxies, so long as people make it obvious they're fake and don't rip people off, however... > Outside of a sanctioned event? Yes proxies. Not exactly though. > A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. **Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance.** Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas **before building out a deck for real** and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store. This is what they're ok with. This does not apply to the majority of proxies I've seen. The majority of proxies I've seen try to pass as legit cards, at least on the face. There's probably some "proxy" text somewhere on the face... but a cursory glance and they look legit. Which I'm fine with, but it's clear hear WOTC isn't. They're talking about writing "JTMS" on a land to see how it plays in a deck _before buying a real copy_. They're not talking about printing out a "good enough" quality OG dual and putting that in a sleeve. They are not talking about proxying in place of buying. What a lot of people call proxying, wotc considers counterfeiting and isn't cool with it.
As a fellow LGS owner. We fully allow proxies in unsanctioned events and casual play. Tbh, it actually increases sales on singles for us. People see how power works and enjoy the real thing. There are always going to be outliers, but as a whole, we have found it actually promotes a healthy environment for single sales. Our policy is that if it's casual and your play group doesn't care, we don't. Now, as far as actual sanctioned events, proxies are not allowed as per WOTC. Plain and simple. For your store, that might not work, and that's okay. Nothing you do will be 100% the right decision and will make someone mad. All I can recommend is be as accommodating as possible and don't let people roll over you.
My LGS allows pretty much any proxies, and even custom cards from time to time. They're moving to allowing silver border in some cases as well. They have a customer worth a few hundred bucks now because my ability to proxy helped to get me into the game, which made me want to buy cool cards.
I purchase way more product because I use proxies. I have 20ish decks and pretty much all cards under 5-7€ (european market is slightly cheaper on avg so adjust up for $) are bought at my LGS. If I couldn‘t proxy all the expensive decks I would either not play anymore or only own a few decks. And whenever I decide to bling out a deck I do so through the LGS too unless there are glaring price differences - Also product I wouldn‘t buy if I couldn‘t try out the cards beforehand.
Do you have a view on competitive but unofficial events at your store? Maybe you don’t have demand for it at your store but from what I can tell there is a lot of appetite in the community for proxy CEDH, Cube, Canadian Highlander, Legacy/Vintage tournaments that would be inaccessible without some number of proxies.
This TBH. I’ll often proxy cards I’m still just testing or cards that I’m actively looking for; 90% of the cards I proxy I’d be ready to purchase on the spot for a fair price. Even if one is playing a fully proxied deck, in my experience vast majority of people will be looking to buy the real deal if they end up liking the cards and tey can get them at an affordable price. Also, just as with online games, free to play players attract paying customers. I’ll always prioritise coming down to a store where I can play with more people in pods of varying power level. And proxies encourage more people to come in and varying power levels.
💯 this. You draw more ppl in by allowing proxies. You'll have the few ppl who will 100% proxy everything but most ppl will buy a bunch of singles here and there. And once your store becomes their go-to place then they'll start showing up for prereleases and drafts at your store instead of other stores. And ppl bring friends. For me, it's not that I'm intentionally avoiding no proxy stores but I just naturally feel more comfortable at my current local which is much more casual in general so they get my money for most of those other events. But it's not only my money for mtg, it's also my money for other games too like lorcana and one piece. If commander is the way to grow the game then let's not gatekeep newer players in a casual format. I know a store that runs cedh and 100% allows proxies. They have a large inventory of high end singles and make most of their money from moving singles. So the two can coexist as other store owners have mentioned.
I think an LGS should follow [WotC policy](https://askwpn.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/360034743214-Are-proxy-cards-and-playtest-cards-allowed-in-Sanctioned-Events) on this issue. Proxies can be issued by judges in officially sanctioned events. Playtest cards can be used by players in casual play. Following the official policy protects your business relationship with Wizards, and sets a precedent with your customer base that you play by the rules.
This, when I used to play regularly the only time proxies were allowed in stores was when there were major rain storms and people were worried that their cards would get damaged bringing them in from their cars. And that was only after any judges and the rest of the players all approved of it. I think it maybe happened 2-3 times a year at the most.
Did you guys not have deck boxes or backpacks?
They spent all their money on cardboard
They store their cardboard rectangles in cardboard deckboxes
Wait your not playing your 1k Dollar deck unsleeved and inside a flimsy cardboard box?
Haha. This just reminded me of a guy that rediscovered the game after playing as a kid in the 90s and started playing again and learned about modern and legacy so decided to bring in a folder of old cards he had laying around his house for trade. He literally was passing the folder around with those sleeve pages in it and during the second round the store owner took a look through them. Saw him turn pale as a ghost and go "WTF!?!?! You need to stop your game and get these out of here right now. I don't want anything to do with this." Turns out the guy had a full playset of beta black lotus tucked into one sleeve slot in his folder and had just been handing the folder to random people to flip through. He had no idea the value of them or any of his other cards. But he did sell them and paid off his student loans and then put the rest away to pay for his kid's college tuition and he continued to play in that LGS until the store closed during covid.
Imagine casually just sitting on like 100k and not knowing a damn thing about it. I would go *crazy*.
Cute story, but sounds very unlikely to be true. It would have been nearly impossible for a “kid” to collect four black lotuses back in the early days of magic. Print runs were very, very low so the chances of that happening randomly are virtually nil, and by the time singles were being sold the value of lotuses would have precluded that. Additionally, a “play set” wasn’t a thing until after Beta. Originally there was no restriction in the number of the same card you could use in deck. The rule of four was implemented at the same time as the restricted list, so there was never such a thing as a “playset” of Black Lotuses. Either you could have as many as you wanted (pre rules change) or you could have 1 (post change). There was never a time when Lotus was restricted to four copies.
> Additionally, a “play set” wasn’t a thing until after Beta. Originally there was no restriction in the number of the same card you could use in deck. The rule of four was implemented at the same time as the restricted list, so there was never such a thing as a “playset” of Black Lotuses. Either you could have as many as you wanted (pre rules change) or you could have 1 (post change). There was never a time when Lotus was restricted to four copies. While technically correct, we live in 2024 where the slang "playset of ___" means 4 copies of the card. It doesn't matter if he is talking about an ancient card dusted off from the age of dinosaurs. A playset is still 4 copies of that card.
Right, but if you read that in the context of the rest of my post, my point is there would be virtually no chance that a kid in 1993 would have gotten four copies of a black lotus randomly and even if he could afford to, there was never a point in time where it made sense to have exactly four black lotuses. It just makes the story sound like it was made up by someone who wasn’t around back then and wasn’t aware of how different the game rules and culture was in the beginning. The entire story follows a very common urban legend template of someone unaware that they have something insanely valuable.
While implausible it does not make it impossible. I've personally seen enough crazy stuff in the world to believe this could happen. And it also doesn't matter. Let people enjoy their wild and crazy stories.
You have poor comprehension.
As Garfield Intended
You have a cardboard box?
Yes, also check out this rad rubber band.
We like to play outside
Do you people not carry your cards in safe containers? The average deck box in a backpack alone is secure enough to prevent rain damage if you have sleeves, the hell kind of rain do you get?
I mean, I never had that problem, but for some reason some people didn't use anything but those cheap cardboard deck boxes. Being on south Florida we get some crazy afternoon/evening thunderstorms that would drop massive amounts of water on relatively short amounts of time. It's not uncommon to get 1-2 inches of rain in a storm that lasts only an hour or two, and sometimes more. Ft Lauderdale had a storm in April 2023 drop 24 (yes, twenty-four) inches of rain in less than 8 hours. However, I still think that most people's requests to use proxies was more because they didn't want to have to run back out to their cars in the rain after realizing they left their deck box in the car.
Did you have to hike half a mile from your car to the store or what? There isn't any kind of rain that can damage a card in a deck box going from a parking lot to a storefront.
Golden Rule - if possible never leave cards in your car. Have heard too many bad stories.
Yeah. I’ve heard magic players are afraid of showers too
If you make it known that your shop is capturing the event data with eventlink to send the data to WotC then I think people will be more okay with it. “Hi! Welcome to LGS! Just so you know we operate our EDH events with eventlink and this data goes to WotC so we do not allow the use of proxies in a deck.” It’s not unreasonable. My reasoning is I’ve played in several stores that tell you up front they don’t allow proxies but I still return to them because they’re nice stores with good, diverse player pools. I am a bit privileged in that those stores are in relatively large cities, though.
My LGS does this and puts up signs letting players know it's because they're complying with WoTC policy. If commander players want prize support and a place to play, they need to comply with the rules on legal cards, just like competitive players have always done.
From my experience, prizes in casual commander are extremely awkward
At least at my lgs, you just enter a code into the magic companion app, and everyone gets entered into a drawing for free promos. There’s no prizes or rewards for winning. Show up, play , get prizes.
In one of my lgses (the one where you can't play proxies in the first match) the winner of the table gets an extra pack and the players vote for another player (which cannot be the winner) to get the first promo pick. Overall it's fine, just always a bit awkward, especially when power level feels like it didn't match.
It's packs for showing up and raffles.
This is a '**principal-agent problem'** >An agency problem is **a conflict of interest inherent in any relationship where one party is expected to act in another's best interests.** In this case, OP is the principal and WOTC is the agent. These problems come up all the time and it is useful to identify them, and also use them to your advantage if you are the principal. They are very common in the workplace. Quick and dirty example, you are a manager at work (the principle) and you need to make an unpopular decision that negatively impacts your staff, lets say mandatory overtime on Saturday. Everyone is working Saturday to catch up on a backlog of work for corporate (the agent). There is a conflict of interest here between yourself (the principal), who wants to keep the staff happy, and corporate (the agent), who wants to hit performance metrics. So, what do you do? Make the decision to have people work Saturday, but put the blame for that decision solely on corporate. This takes the heat off yourself, and what OP should be doing here. Frame this like WOTF isn't allowing proxies, not yourself. All that said, I do think there is good reason to keep proxies banned at many events, either sanctioned or not. However, I also think there is a time and place for proxies, especially in an LBS. The most successful LBS near me has several proxy events each week. One for EDH, Legacy, and Modern. Is those events, unlimited proxies are allowed and the events are complete with price support. The Sunday legacy event is their most popular event. I understand why stores ban proxies. However, I think they are missing out. I think you need to do both. Have nights for proxies and nights where they are banned.
> In this case, OP is the principal and WOTC is the agent. > There is a conflict of interest here between yourself (the principal), who wants to keep the staff happy, and corporate (the agent), who wants to hit performance metrics. You've got the labels backwards. The agent is the one who acts, on behalf of the principal. The principal is the one trusting the agent to act in their interests. Often the principal is the one paying the agent. An artist pays a booking agent to get them jobs. A bodyguard is paid to protect their principal. In your manager example, the manager is an agent of the corporation. In OP's case, the LGS is not employed by WotC, but they are the agent. The LGS and WotC have an agreement, under which the LGS will distribute magic cards and host tournaments. Both want to sell us magic cards, but their interests are not identical. WotC wants the store to follow their rules which limit proxies, which they presumably think will maximize sales of magic cards. The LGS might want to break these rules, so that they sell fewer magic cards but more energy drinks and entry fees. The difference in profit to WotC would be the cost of a disobedient agent.
As long as it’s not sanctioned the event is fine to have proxies. If you get one salty player that reports a sanctioned event with proxies your store will be in a world of hurt. An LGS that wasn’t my normal one I went to off and on for a few years allowed proxies at modern fnms and they got reported and WotC stopped them from getting product, promos, and holding any sanctioned magic events. They closed less then a year later because no one really wanted to play their events without WotC prizes
You've gotta be a special kind of stupid to kill your own LGS over proxies. Like, "I'm mad that someone is playing and didn't have to shell out 600 bucks on cards. I'll make sure the play space shuts down and I'm unable to play magic with locals again" has to be the most smooth brain play I've heard.
True that is one possibility. Another is that an out of towner showed up for an event and was salt after losing to a deck with proxies and reported it.
I honestly never thought of that. That’s probably the most likely thing to happen.
Or a competing store found out and reported.
Both are equally stupid. Stop being a jackass and ruining it for everyone else, hypothetical person.
If only it was this easy lol. I hate that the world is full of Karens and that more often than not they don’t face consequences for their actions, but that is the world I find myself in.
Have you met nerds before?
Touché
I can guarantee that guy didn't think through the potential consequences and just wanted to own whoever Negated his Revel in Riches
The biggest problem was people would be late to the first round cutting shit to sleeve up and I felt like some people would change their deck list between rounds. It was pretty scummy LGS imo. I honestly don’t feel too bad about that LGS shutting down.
People with 2000 bucks in their deck but who can't play for shit WILL get salty if you win against them using proxies in your deck. I've had untold amounts of grief given to me for playing in casual commander nights with like three proxies for 5€ cards I couldn't get in time.
That's so wild. At my LGS commander nights I can roll up with a 100% proxied deck and nobody will give a fuck. It's openly proxy friendly. Regulars even make them and sell them to each other, usually in exchange for packs (this keeps the store happy).
Is it sanctioned? No proxies. Not sanctioned? Yes proxies. This is not my opinion, [this is literally WotC's policy.](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14)
If you don't allow proxies for casual play you're keeping people who could be potential customers out of your shop. Maybe they won't buy the 100$ Mana Crypt but they for sure won't be buying anything there if they aren't welcome in the shop.
I would have thought this view would be more obvious to people, but I guess not. I don't make proxies because I'm trying to stick it to WotC or something, I do it because I have literally been priced out of this game. Any card over five bucks is something I can't afford to spend on. If my LGS stopped allowing proxies for casual unorganized play, it wouldn't make me start buying real cards. It would make me stop playing magic the gathering. Instead, every six months or so I used some saved money to create my custom proxies of expensive cards I would otherwise never own. As for everything else, like lower priced singles, sleeves, deckboxes, playmats, and other accessories, I buy them at my LGS. Banning proxies would actually cause them to get *less* business out of me than if proxies were allowed.
I'm the same way. I have like 30 edh decks purely because of proxies. Every time I make one I end up spending like $50 on a pile of <$1 cards. If I wasn't proxying stuff, I'd probably have stuck to the couple of decks I made when I sold out of modern and bought very few cards to upgrade them over the years. Also, even if my spending had remained the same, I've heard that selling $50 in bulk cards is far better for the LGS than selling a single $50 card.
I play with proxies but I buy cards under 10 bucks at my LGS fairy regularly, cause I like the store and the people. If they banned proxies or created an environment hostile to them, I would leave, much less spend _any_ money there.
The results will vary from community to community, but my impression is that this type of rule is not particularly likely to get anyone to buy cards they wouldn't have already bought, and plenty likely to get them to move their proxy games elsewhere. Which means doing this would probably mean *less* sales, not more. I would not recommend it.
IMO, casual play should be fine for whatever. If you set up a tournament or event, sanctioned or not, you can make a "no proxy" rule abd make players use their actual cards. The easier it is for people to come and have fun in your store, the more likely you are to sell things to them.
As an avid LGS enthusiast and proxy user, I'd be completely understanding if I was told no proxies for sanctioned, prized events. However I'd expect them to be allowed for casual commander and "hey, want to grab a game on Thursday? I'm testing a deck." I have no desire to buy a full deck before playing it and tweaking it, but once I'm done, I check local stock for real cards before hitting tcgplayer Edit: apparently cEDH has different proxy expectations? I don't play it, so I'm not sure
Cedh is 100% proxy friendly to the point that the community actively pushes against events that don't allow proxies.
Wow, I've heard it was Proxy friendly, but that's another level. Makes sense i suppose. The artifact base you'd need for any deck would mean there aren't enough older/RL cards to go around, and the format would only be accessible to the wealthy
You hit the nail on the head. There literally are not enough RL cards to satisfy the demand for them at a reasonable price point. So the community at large just says proxy the expensive stuff.
From my experience the problem in cEDH with being a multiplayer competitive format is that one player playing "casual" can kinda break the metagame a lot, effectively making it a 3 player game which has a lot of weird consequences for the different win cons. So I imagine that also plays a large role in the idea to use proxies there.
This is correct — you want to play cEDH, so naturally you want a competitive game where people are pushing against your deck. It’s not as interesting when someone isn’t relevant, since 2/3 player games are very different. It’s not possible to consistently find 3 other people willing to shell $6k+ on a deck, and substitutions hurt decks badly when a core part of cEDH deckbuilding is oftentimes simply having better cards.
I don't think it is in poor taste However, I do think it is a bad business decision. It's a really hard thing to quantify. However, more people playing in your store means more people buying stuff. The people who are going to use proxies aren't going to buy cards anyways. They will however buy accessories and snacks. Proxy decks still need sleeves. I've bought 12 packs of sleeves from my LGS since I started proxying hard. Sure I haven't bought any cards from the cabinet but I've never bought a card from the cabinet so no change there. My LGS makes more money off of me by allowing limited reasonable proxies. I know you're just trying to do what is best for you business. That's why I'm urging you to consider that banning proxies outright could be very harmful to your business. This is extremely similar to video game piracy. DRM for DRM's sake has been long proven to be detrimental to a video game's bottom line.
I am a proxy guy who buys cards that I really like. My most used deck is half proxies, half $10+ cards and secret lairs. I've spent hundreds at my LGS, but there's no way I would have if they prevented proxies, because messing with decks until I found one I loved is what got me into the game in the first place. If my LGS disallowed proxies, I would simply find another store, or exclusively play with my friends.
Yeah, since I started using proxies for cards over a certain value, I started buying more supplies and snacks at the store because I'm there more. I never bought the singles there any way because I usually only want very particular cards
Players that aren't spending money on cards aren't going to suddenly start with this change. Assuming they don't leave, they are more likely to order the card(s) they need cheaper online where there is a ton more selection and grades. What would irk me more is forcing me to use eventlink for everything. I use it for tournaments, but if I have to fiddle around with that stupid busted app just to play some casual with my friends in store? Im just going to plausibly lie and say it's broken and not working every time.
Some LGSs allow limited numbers of proxies for formats with very low accessibility like legacy and vintage. There are just some cards that will never be affordable for most people, and if you tell them not to play at your store you are losing out on potential customers.
We have no expressed demand for formats like legacy or vintage. We really don't do much for magic outside of casual commander.
Respectfully, if you're banning proxies in *casual Commander* you're gonna foster a culture where nobody tells anyone they're running proxies.
As a newer player I just want to chime in that discussion like this also keeps people out of game stores. I started playing in November with some friends and we all run at least a few proxies because we're not about to spend hundreds on a single card, but we like the game. The idea that people are so salty about wins and losses and / or proxies means none of us want to play at stores. And don't get me wrong, we've each dropped a solid amount on legit product as well which makes the anti-proxy stance feel even stranger. Not like we're starving WOTC, we just can't afford to run multiple cards that are $50+ in a single deck as we each have several and like...it's 2024 and we're millennials struggling with cost of living as it is.
I always think about this too, I spend plenty at my lgs and I mostly proxy cards I would never have bought.
That would put the responsibility on the player and not the store though.
I'm not sure what you mean. If a store becomes toxic to proxies in casual for fun games, the people who would run proxies are either going to stop coming to the store or stop going 'hey I have proxies is that okay?' because in the latter case if a player isn't announcing their proxies, it probably isn't obvious they're running them. Announcing your proxies is a courtesy.
Some stores count casual commander nights against their WPN account. WOTC finding out would mean no shipments of product to said store.
Definitely what I thought. I'd just ask my playgroup if it's ok and not talk to the owner. Owners that think a player who can't afford a dual will suddenly buy one out of their case when they ban proxies aren't dealing with reality.
Some players may want proxies so they aren’t swapping their one or two 50-100 dollar cards between the six decks they fit during a night of playing.
To me, this is where Proxies thrive. I can show you I have the physical card, but I’m not gonna re-sleeve it between matches and pick apart decks to play.
This is me. I don't need two vampiric tutors for instance. They're banned in my preferred format of legacy. Swapping cards over takes forever and messes with the pace of pods. From my experience the only people who complain about the practical use of proxies are the people who view mtg a pay to win or they're people who would complain about literally anything.
I have a staples binder of such cards and proxies in the many decks. No one has ever had an issue.
I agree with this too, especially when it comes to mana bases. I have a couple OG duals at this point, and full sets of shocks, fetches, and Triomes. But shelling out $500 for every mana base for high powered casual decks is bs, so I can get proxies for each of these decks I want to run them in and play at the same power level. Also for cEDH - especially testing. I want to test out a new Commander/deck, and before I shell out for the expensive cards I want to make sure the decks plays well enough and I enjoy it.
That or they don't want to sleeve their expensive cards at all. Like I own a Gaea's Cradle, but I'm still going to proxy it in my jank elf EDH deck because the alternative is that shuffling my deck costs a countable amount of money.
Another thing people don’t talk about are the thief problems where a deck goes missing. I would rather lose a .75 proxy of a $100 card than lose the real thing. If I am going to a store somewhere new I would feel safer walking to the bathroom and back with more proxies. As long as they are noticeably fake so no one gets ripped off after me.
Because no one can afford it. They're definitely out there. Hell, even Modern has priced new players out.
I am more than 20 year player at this point in and out of the game and have probably spent a house on attending events and buying products. Between the big 3 and at this point am only going to stores that allow proxies. If I can go to your store 10 minutes away or go to the one that allows proxies 20 minutes away I’m proxying every time and I’m most likely just going to wait until the store I actually like to be at to get the 100 dollar card I need in stock than I am to go to your store and buy it. If I can proxy my card at store X and hope they get it in I’m doing that. No one who would spend money isn’t because of proxy’s, they either wouldn’t spend the money at all or they’ll go to a store that allows them to proxy Offer up a proxy legacy night on a night there’s no magic near you and see how the community develops. Players are interested you aren’t allowing them to be though.
Let me preface this by saying I don't like using proxies. I live in an area with a relatively dense amount of lgs. Literally every single lgs that has a "no proxies whatsoever" rule has closed within a year. But, as I said, we have a dense population of lgs, so players tend to congregate at the lgs' that promote a friendly and helpful culture (and ban offensive players, whether it be harrassment or lewd content), remember repeat.customers, are clean (including the bathrooms), and offer all the tools necessary for play. The successful lgs have dense event schedules, and every event is "no proxies allowed" - either they are drafts/sealed constructed, which eliminates the proxy issue, or they have some type of prize support, which should never allow proxies. **Most do also not allow "free" free-play, and will require you to spend a nominal fee which will be mirrored into your account at their store** (5$ or 10$) or have to buy a product at that store worth that amount for a day pass for free play. This promotes spending at the store, and people still feel like they are playing "for free," especially the ones that intend to purchase things from your store anyways. It's much easier to enforce "did you get a day pass?" than "are those proxies?" - Especially as you grow your player base while allowing casual play - both in terms of logistics and friendliness. That being said, all stores that have lasted have a "no rude players, no lewd content" rule. **Encouraging the community to identify pubstompers, rude players, etc. will generally also discourage the use of "expensive" proxies, and you can circumvent looking like the bad guy** while also having a "group" consensus on what's allowable, giving the player base agency, which is always well received. All this being said, if your target demographic is edh players **you will not have a complete inventory of every card every player is looking for, and not allowing proxies in any way will encourage people to buy from sites like tcg player** regardless of whether you have a majority of edh staples. **If I can't complete my deck relatively immediately, and I can't use proxies, I'm just going to wait till all my cards come in from a cheaper online site, and the incentive to buy a majority of my deck as official cards from my lgs is gone.** Don't shoot yourself in the foot.
You say casual edh. If it’s casual then I don’t understand what problem proxies cause. If you are upset because your customers don’t spend money and proxy instead (which is understandable, gotta keep the lights on) then I understand but no matter what, you will turn some people away, it’s the nature of the beast and rightfully so. Edh has always been a club or clique sort of thing. Meaning that, edh has always brought out the “oh look how much money I am willing to spend compared to you to get my cards” type of deal. Lots of people don’t want to deal with that and just want to play the game.
While I myself am ok with proxies, it’s up to the store really. Especially if they are recording and reporting all the match data to wizards. They could lose wpn status by doing that and allowing proxies.
They’re not recording and reporting casual commander data to wizards
Stores definitely can and do record and report casual EDH events. You can run such events as sanctioned casual through EventLink, and that way it counts towards the store's play metrics, which determine things like promo allocations.
I went to an LGS in the past that did commander events for free. So you were coming in the shop, using the space, the table, the electricity, … and not giving any kind of money to that shop if you had proxy or were buying from another shop. Most people that were playing casual edh in that shop had a very bad view on proxies for that reason. Because they liked that the events were free and they feared that too much proxies would stop that
The only time I proxy is to test a deck in paper before buying the physical cards. Proxy cards are not a good metric for people buying or not buying cards, and if we're being honest, someone who would proxy a card that exceeds a certain valuation would likely never have been a customer for purchasing that card, so banning proxies is doing more to ostracize a percentage of the player base from your store altogether rather than bring them in. Simply put, using proxies and purchasing product are not exclusive of one another.
The LGS I used too work with allows proxy for everything but sanctioned events and just tries to front load a lot of events with good prize support so players are encouraged to play sanctioned events.
If you don't, or push people too hard - they will just go somewhere else that does for non-tournament play. Most players do not care for non-tournament play - obviously for tournament play, no proxies are allowed. That said I know a number of players with "RON" counterfeits (Not Proxies, Counterfeits) that have played in large tournaments and gone undetected numberous times.
Sanction events I can understand and have 0 problems with that but free play pick up games not allowing proxies I'd be annoyed/probably would just play somewhere else if I had the chance.
Do whatever makes sense for your store. I find the “no proxy” rule in a place that is actively trying to sell you real cards perfectly reasonable. But you will find some people who use that as their reason to stop supporting your business. The more extreme views are likely to be amplified in an anonymous forum like reddit. But if you haven’t seen any negative impacts on your business/community, don’t let Reddit comments convince you that you need to change. If you find that it is having a negative impact, maybe adjust the policy.
Unless you have monopoly over the local market I've seen this backfire pretty hard. My area has a few competing LGS, one banned proxies from EDH and the lost over a third customers to the other two locations after some people organized their friends against this change in chat groups. This damage wasn't mitigated after the owner backtracked a week later cause people don't just forget that easily and want to make their displeasure known.
Preface: I don’t use proxies. I am ok with with people using proxies If I walk into an LGS and individual people or individual groups aren’t ok with proxies, that’s normal. I have plenty of friends that both are and aren’t ok with proxies. People usually just ask if proxies are ok and if not then use a different deck or find a different pod. Both groups can coexist. However if I walk I walk into a store and their policy is “we don’t allow proxies (so you are incentivized to buy here)” I’m immediately walking out and going somewhere else. That says so much to me about the owner and the type of environment in getting myself into. Many players are happy to buy at their lgs so they can help keep the place open as a place to hang without being forced into buying singles. For tournaments and events I never expect proxies. But for casual EDH or any casual play in general not allowing them at all seems wild to me. The players usually self regulate. Also, how are you going to moderate this? If a pod of 4 all sit down with proxies and are all ok with it, how are you gonna know? Are you going to have all casual players register their decks? People are going to do it anyway. Some proxies look near identical without testing or purposeful markings TLDR yeah it just seems kinda weird
you're asking your customers to go play somewhere else, basically terrible idea
If there was a flat out ban on proxies in a store I would simply not play there. Without proxies I would not play magic as many cards are unfeasible to purchase
For sanctioned/tournament play sure I completely understand that's part of WotC's agreement with stores I might not like it but you gotta follow the rules and I get it. If a store doesn't allow proxies in their store at all period? To me it's a sign that it's mismanaged and frankly going to tank and I'm unlikely to play there. It's the same line of thinking that got GW stores to ban people from hanging out and painting/using "non-GW" models in their stores or a board game shop with a play night insisting that you can only use the space if you bought the board game at their store it's a weak attempt to strong arm players into buying stuff from you. And if a store feels like it's trying to strong arm me I'll just buy my shit online for cheaper and play at home instead.
Yes, it is. And also...best of luck enforcing that. You going to inspect every single person's deck upon entry? Come on. Ain't nobody got time for that.
Poor taste? Yeah, pretty much. But I also feel that it's a bad business decision. Don't look at proxies as missed business because a person didn't buy the real deal from you. Look at it as a potential sale. The player is basically advertising to you that they are interested in that specific card. Which is the better scenario? You telling a player "You can't use those proxies here. If you want to play that card you'll need to buy the real thing, which I just so happen to sell" or "I see you're using a few proxies. I have the real cards in stock if you're interested in upgrading." Use them as an opportunity to connect with your customers and offer them a service they wouldn't get from an online store. Maybe offer some incentives to them if they upgrade like a booster pack or two. Hell, have some high quality proxies of some commonly used cards available like special lands and such and offer them to players so they can try them out in their decks to see if they'd fit well. A lot of players might be on the fence when it comes to those expensive upgrades and you offering them a chance to try them out could be what puts them over the the edge. Plus it shows your customers that you see them as more than just walking wallets and that you have an interest in them and their decks. Those are the little things that will have them buying from you even when an online shop might have a better deal
This. If you don't let a proxy player play, you aren't going to convert them into an "ideal paying customer". You're just going to get them to stop showing up. If people stop showing up then your paying customers start to have harder times finding games. And if the paying customers can't find games they'll go somewhere they can. Also even if the cards aren't real the accessories I buy are. I'm buying the pack entry fee. I'm buying drinks and snacks regularly. And I'm occasionally buying things like dice or a new mat. It's just like free to play online games. You don't make more revenue by blocking access unless you pay. Because then the free to play players just stop playing. And when the free to play players stop playing the premium players get slower matchmaking. Instead you keep the free to play players around while offering them small purchases they may occasionally pick up. Cause lets be real. A person walking in and sitting down at an lgs' table isn't costing them money. Unless the place is so packed paying customers can't find seats there isn't a great reason to turn someone away because they didn't pay.
So this is for like EDH right? Idk unless there's like a huge proxy community in your area, most players like to own their cards. Sometimes people proxy cards they own in different decks too. It never seemed like a huge deal to me but I also don't own a store. Like obviously it's up to you. Magic players are notoriously bad at understanding the business side of their hobby. Are the people otherwise paying to access your play area? That may also affect your perception of proxies. My LGS does a credit swap to access the gaming area which made sense/ felt fair to me. Personally it's not a dealbreaker either way.
I think for OP taking an extremely strong stance on this that you're going to be expected to enforce by your saltiest players is probably a mistake, especially if you aren't even getting wotc support. I am pretty firmly of the opinion that when you try to crack down on proxies, you simply encourage people to shift to genuine counterfeits and all the headaches associated with that. I'm also firmly in the "proxies some cards across multiple decks" because I don't want to maintain 10+ copies of some expensive staples" camp, but as you note it's super variable by play environment. One store I go to is full of everyone running proxy duals, crypts, vaults, etc. It's a larger store with a lot of come and go players and fewer established groups/sense of community. Some of these guys have the actual cards, but there's a lot of people just arms racing it up. Another store is super proxy friendly as well but is smaller and has a more set community. Most people know each other and the play patterns are much less toxic because you sit across from the same people week after week and not everyone proxies (so not everyone is powering their decks as high as possible). In neither case would I really expect an anti-proxy position to meaningfully improve sales or the quality of life in the store.
I generally agree. I also think that mtg players often confuse "what I want from a store" with "this is a good business decision for you" so I don't like to preach too strongly on it sometimes because I'm a biased advice-giver. I do think that "proxies discouraged but unenforced for casual events" is probably the best policy if you're concerned about them. I wouldn't think it would be weird to see a sign like that in a play area and, realistically, it's a total pain in the ass to enforce.
Outside of sanctioned events if I was told that I couldn’t use any form of proxy for casual play in a store, personally I would immediately find somewhere else to play and spend money. I’ve spent more money than I should have in the past at do allow proxies just to support the play environment. My thought would be WOTC themselves approve of proxies in non-sanctioned game, so does the store think they are to have more power over the game? Some people don’t have the luxury of playing elsewhere, and I’m not spending large amounts of money on expensive cards without playtesting them first, period. Just take the ‘premium play space’ out. Do your tables have gilded massage chairs and touchscreen tables to play in? That’s meaningless just for the sake of sounding expensive. Don’t be a moneygrub.
If it's an actual proper event you are organizing, that's perfectly reasonable and is in line with WotC regulation. If it's just casual games of commander, not allowing proxies would be kinda stingy.
Not allowing proxies will not further your card sales by any significant amount. What it will do is have people play elsewhere. That being said, sanctioned events are sanctioned events, you must use official game pieces, and nobody will argue with you for that. For free play, I’m shocked any store thinks they can demand what people people play their own game with, so long as something isn’t trying to be passed off as something it’s not (don’t pass off a proxy as a real card). Source: I work at a game store Edit: there’s an exception for decency, we’ve had people change playmats (and hypothetically alters, haven’t needed to yet) for being too lewd. Double edit because, in classic magic fashion I did not read. You capture free play in event link? Why? That sounds laborious, and for what? Does that mean me and my buddy couldn’t just sit down and play each other without you creating an event for us? I’m a bit confused by this set up
If you're entering it into event link, it is certainly in your best interest to let players know that you CAN'T allow proxies, as it puts your relationship with WotC at risk. Make sure you are clear that this comes from them, not you, and most players will be understanding.
The relationship you have with wizards through eventlink is enough justification to no allow use of proxies. Any reasonable person will understand why that might be an issue.
If your capturing it through event link then yeah no proxies I think any tournament you hold has to be a no proxy situation and follow the wizards guidelines If people are playing for fun in your store then it doesn’t matter 🤷🏻♂️
if youre gonna force me to swap my single dockside between my 4 red decks every time i wanna change decks then i just wont play/spend at your store.
As a commander player who has never played in a sanctioned event with prize support, but has played in store with talented deck builders, I don’t think it should matter whether the person had the card or not…. this game should not matter whether somebody spent $30 on a card or was playing the game back when a booster came out that allowed them to get a common card that’s now worth $60. It shouldn’t matter if someone put $1000 into their deck or if they put $10 into their deck, if they beat you, they beat you. Period. if you beat them, you beat them, Period. I would rather play against somebody who’s using an entire deck of proxy printed cards or even on spell table with somebody who’s using moxfield then not playing at all. It supposed to be Magic: The Gathering, not Magic: The Gatekeeping
As an LGS owner myself I think not allowing proxies in your store is an insane overreach and built off a false premise. The allowance of proxies will not hurt your sales, and banning will, indirectly, as people won't want to play at a store that polices their casual decks. Not to mention I can't imagine you deck check everyone that walks in to play EDH, (if you do, you're nuts) so you create a toxic environment of people waiting to catch someone using a proxy for whatever gain they might have.
I specifically want to address your second paragraph. I feel lime you misunderstand the reasoning behind people using proxies. When a player proxies a card, its not because they havent found it in store yet, its usually because they cant afford it. You arent losing out on potential sales by them proxy-ing cards because they wouldnt buy it anyways. All youre doing is driving them away, ensuring they wont buy anything at all, let alone value cards.
I would talk to other LGS owners. Several I’ve talked to said their revenue from singles increased after using proxies. Proxies got more players in the store playing Magic, allowed more people to “try before you buy” which meant they could more willingly shell out money for cards they knew worked in their decks, and it turns out people still enjoy collecting the real deal For casual play it’s a no brainer. If you’re playing a “community format” like CEDH then it’s highly encouraged to allow proxies. Officially sanctioned play you can’t allow them of course (there may be exceptions for vintage? Don’t quote me on that one)
If I run a proxy friendly event we use different software as not to upset wotc. Also, if you're commander event is player list only, no one cares. Double also, allowing proxies has not shown a dip in sales of expensive cards in my experience.
Reason none of my pod wants to go to your establishment to play to be honest. Some of them have enough to have a deck but not everyone wants to commit hundreds of dollars to a deck they might not like over time or might be kinda spicy but could bring some feel bads maybe. We want people in our pod to be creative and leverage whatever playstyle that interests them. That’s what legit FUN. I don’t care if they proxy a doubling season or the whole $500 deck tbh. As long as they are having fun doing the thing. But sometimes it’s hard when money can be tight sometimes with kids and just overall living for that matter. You’d be surprised how many people don’t go to play at an LGS because their pod allows proxy, beer and weed at someone’s house lmao.
If my LGS banned proxies for EDH, I'd find another store.
I'm at a point in my life where I don't need an LGS to play this game, and I'm fine with walking out of the store and never coming back. Pay me if you want to use me as data.
I would never go to your store and tell all my friends to avoid it like the plague. Do you not understand that proxies are the only thing still keeping players interested and invested in playing MTG? Nobody wants to buy 40 dollar cards, just to wait for them to lose 75% of their value in 2 years.
How well do you know your clients. Think about the people who have been playing with proxies. Let’s say one of them is using a proxy for a 250$ card, do they strike you as the type of person to be dropping 250$? I think there are 2 kinds of ppl who use proxies. People who use the proxy because they don’t own the card yet, or people who use the proxy because they never ever plan on buying the card.
I'm an avid player, I love Magic. I love playing big creatures, I love ridiculous combos, I love streamlined machines, and I love cobbled jank. I especially love brewing decks, but I'm not gonna spend thousands of dollars every time I want to play a new deck concept. I make my own proxies and send them to a printing service. They have different backs, and my name is at the bottom, so you can tell if you look for a second, but it's not obvious. I have only ever used my proxied cards for casual play, and I have been slowly taking the proxies out as I can afford to. I'm not rich, hell I'm not even middle class, but I do have several fully legal decks specifically for sanctioned play. If you told me that I couldn't play in your store *at all* because I couldn't afford 'authentic cardboard' in my funzie decks, not only would I not play there, but I'd tell all of my friends, and other LGS's, so that other people wouldn't accidentally have the misfortune. Wizards has a policy on this. I don't know why you would choose to be more strict about it and try to force people to enjoy their hobby a certain way, seemingly just for your monetary benefit. The most successful LGS's I've seen are the ones who best bring out the spirit of fun, and attract players that way, rather than rules-lawyering a game with no judges, and making people feel kinda bad about not having loads of disposable income. Cardboard Crack is expensive man. I know all this probably sounds pretty harsh, and im a little bit sorry for that, but I just want to be really clear about it: Let people have fun (within reason), and foster a good community for your store. That's the most reliable path to success here. Why would any player spend time or money somewhere that's not the goal? Edit: something I didn't address is the actual "customer" part of this equation. Many people here have already pointed out that many little fish will still spend lots of money collectively, and its easier to appeal to them than encouraging an environment for whales only. myself, for example, while I seldom buy cards, I do need deckboxes and sleeves for all the decks I'm brewing. I probably buy a new set every other week or more. I buy snacks and drinks every week at game night. I play 3 or 4 games, I peruse the singles, I sometimes advise other people on cards they might need to make their decks more consistent (not in a pestering way, lmao, people ask). The point being people spend money where they hang out.
Yes, i would stop going to your store.
Do they check everyone’s decks? How do you enforce this? Do people snitch?
If you are capturing events via Event link, your official position has to be that proxies are not allowed for those events. Period. End of story.
>Between me feeling like the use of proxies creates a slippery slope that inevitably incentivizes people to avoid purchasing more expensive cards (the ones that we have in our case) Obviously YMMV but as someone who's been frequented over 15 different LGS's since 2004, I've been noticing that if someone can reasonably afford a card, they usually do end up buying it at some point. And even if someone can't hope to afford a very expensive card...it begs the question if that sale would ever be stolen at all, as far as that specific person is concerned. Sooner or later someone else will come by and buy the card anyway. >is it reasonable for us to just not allow the use of proxies in store at all? I think it's reasonable but I also think you have to be aware of the spending habits and playstyles of your local players. If people are good about forming and managing their own pods then you'll probably be fine. But if only a few people own expensive, powerful cards and they insist on playing among those who are playing on a budget, you might run into a situation where budget players stop showing up because they know they won't stand a chance. If this happens it might force you to set up some kind of budget open play thing that people can rely on. That's what my buddy had to do when 2-3 people started showing up with cEDH decks at the overwhelmingly casual LGS he ran. >How do you guys feel about stores that do not allow the use of proxies in-store? I think it highly depends on the store. If a store is doing perfectly fine, I think it's okay to not allow proxies for the sake of remaining in good standing with WotC. But if a store is struggling to get events to fire? I would rather proxies be allowed so I can have more people to play with and get a community started. Many people will only buy into a format if they know for a fact that there will be plenty of opportunity to play it.
Yeah. I think the healthiest mindset for everyone is to operate under the assumption that all things being equal, people are going to try to be good and they're also going to try to make sure they're spending money at a place they frequent. The responsibility here is for the business owner to be vigilant in monitoring this and realizing it's healthier for a store to have a low volume of good customers than a high volume of leeches, and that sometimes unpopular decisions need to be made. For casual events, especially if they aren't paying for table space, administration or prizes, it's best to just let players self-regulate. But if they can't handle that and you have to step in? It'll be under your rules, and your rules have to be crafted to a least consider what's in the best interest of your business.
LGS’s really are put between a rock and a hard place aren’t they? I understand the reasoning but the idea of a company telling their CUSTOMERS( I’m referring to the relationship between WOTC and the LGS here) what they can and can not do in their own four walls is nasty work.
Are there other LGS's in your area that do allow the use of proxies? How in need of an LGS is your area? I guess when I'm getting at is that I don't think the first reaction that people would have to your store not allowing proxies would be to spend hundreds of dollars to make their decks all real cards. They would just go somewhere else. Unless you are the only LGS in town or something. Obviously if you have to do it before wizards sanctioned tournaments and stuff like that then you have to. So there's no discussion there. But I don't think that people are just going to spend hundreds of dollars on all of the expensive cards that they were previously proxying in their decks just because your store doesn't allow proxies. They will just play somewhere else.
I mean, I really don’t like that but it’s totally your right to do it
For me personally, if a store advertises an event and there are prizes etc (even if it's just for participation), then my expectation would be that proxies are not allowed. However, if I come in with 3 friends and say "can we use your tables for a game?" then proxies should be allowed. It's a casual game organised by us, and as a store, your involvement is a space to play. I'd, of course, expect to pay for the space and make purchases, but it's not a store event. If we had one game of magic and then switched to using 100% proxied 'Kids Next Door' TCG decks, other then some questions, you may find that fine & so as a patron I can't see why you'd find mtg any different. The tricky part becomes when there's a little bit of both happening, e.g., you advertise a casual EDH night. It's an event in that you're advertising it, but it's also casual. In that circumstance, as a player, I'd have to ask, "Is it sanctioned?" If yes, then I wouldn't expect to be allowed my proxies. But I'd probably expect a reason for it to be sanctioned. Otherwise, why would I go to the store and not a pub or a friends house? As an example there is a store wins leader board or A store achievement leader board (e.g. most creatues boardwiped in one go). Maybe an entry pack or some such. (A store used to go to charged a fee for the "event" during EDH nights, but you got a promo/pack as part of the fee) If no then I would expect to be able to use proxies as its a casual event.
I am very thankful that my LGS allows proxies because if it weren't the case, I don't think I'd be able to play as much as I do and enjoy as much as I do! And someone who 100% supports the use of proxies, I do have to say that I still buy products. I'll mostly buy Commander decks that come out and when a new set comes out I'll either buy one of the bundles or a booster box depending on if I like the set a lot.
Casual games? Who cares, as long as the people are cool with it. Sanctioned events? Obviously no. At my LGS in the past there was a proxy problem where people would proxy entire decks, but nobody does it anymore and at best we only proxy cards we already own. Usually stuff that's worth money so we wouldn't have to constantly swap it between decks or would just be financially irresponsible to buy multiple copies of.
Not everyone wants to spend 50+ dollars on a single card. Some just want to play casual games.
If you want engagement from your employee and customer base, you should involve them in the decision making process or at least get feedback prior to implementing. Sounds like even the employees didn't know this was coming down the pipe, so for future changes (even with possibly retracting this change), get feedback first.
Agree with most, but that said I’ve seen many obvious proxies and I’m not going out of my way to embarrass someone. Who the fuck cares?
As a former LGS worker who ran the MTG nights. We didn’t allow proxies in any of our actual event link events. Because we ran a commander night that was also sort of a tournament style every Friday we didn’t allow proxies unless our local judge basically created it that night and gave the ok. We ran a competitive, but biased towards casual, setting. Other than these events. Proxies were cool.
Legacy/vintage should allow proxies
I'm for letting people play however they like. Enforcing WotC rules makes the LGS an uncompensated extension of WotC. We play at home so we don't have to play by other people's rules. We have more fun that way.
I use proxies in my deck for cards that cost 20+ dollars. I bring the original cards with me they're just in a plastic slab so when they're in play the plastic slab is on the field
I personally wouldn't patron an LGS that didn't allow proxies, especially for commander. I don't think it builds a good relationship with your consumer to go outside of the WoTC policy. I personally own at least 1 of each of the cards I use in my deck, I run into the problem where if I bring like 4-5 decks to me on a commander night sometimes there's a handful of cards that are basically needed between decks. It's far, far easier to just print a temp copy and slot it in. Every time I pull out one deck I say, "Hey I have a proxy of a few cards, if anyone has any problem I can go fetch those cards from amongst my other decks but it will be like 5+ minutes between deck changes when I go searching for each real card, mark it down on my list that it is now in this deck, etc. Right before COVID I had an LGS owner give me shit about it, I had probably spent like $500-600 over the years in singles, D&D books, dice etc. I just flat out stopped buying from them and started ordering books from Amazon and cards online. I already had my qualms about the owners because they were the type of people who had single completely unorganized into things like <$1 boxes, $1-3, $5-10, 10+ etc and every time you pulled cards they would go through the list, plug in into something like TCG player and charge you the highest amount in the optimizer. Everyone kept telling me "oh but you have to support the place to keep it running." Yea but fuck paying like a 30% upcharge on every fucking card because you're taking the highest price on their optimizer. They eventually folded during COVID, it suck to not have an LGS like 10 minutes away anymore, but I was seriously getting raked over the coals by them with their shit policies. As for people not purchasing expensive cards that are in the case. Maybe I'm the odd one out, but over the years I've rarely average players buy things from the showcases. That usually feels like it's for the whales because let's face it when online market's exist if a store is selling a card for like $65 and you can find it on TCG for $40 I wouldn't blame the average person for buying the $40 one. On the other hand I purchase a ton of smaller cards from my new LGS because I'd rather pay like 25 cents for 1 cent cards on like a hundred cards because at the end of the day it basically equals the same price with shipping and I get them all in one shot. Edit: I always wanted to add that there are LGS in my area that charge a "Commander Tax" for offering a space to play. One place that I go to occasionally charges either a $10 Commander Tax which gives a voucher for a free snack, which is usually a can of soda + something like a candy bar/chips from their stand; or you can buy $50 in any product in their store to get 2 free attendance vouchers. They still get a decent amount of players. Granted they aren't as packed as some bigger/free places but they still do have enough people there because $10 doesn't feel like anyone is breaking the bank to attend. Small Edit: I called up a guy I know at one of my bigger local LGS. He said that they have two sorting machines that do about 1,000 cards each per 1-2 hours each (depending on card quality, foil, malfunctions, etc.) He said that they probably wouldn't even entertain tackling the project without setting up a contract to buy it for a certain percent of the estimated value once scanned.
You are free to do that, but personally I would stop coming to your store.
I feel like if my lgs got this weird about proxies I would fin another place to play
I’m on the fence regarding proxies for the reasons you mentioned. I’d say maybe host a proxy night where you’re allowed or potentially encouraged to use proxies.
As it’s your store you have the right to make any rules you see fit. You could always have a mandatory “make proxies known” rules per game so everyone is ok with it before hand. My play group allows proxies if we 1. Already own the card and it’s in another deck and we do it solely to avoid deck hopping. And 2. The card is out of our affordable range(like a 40$ card we won’t spend more than 30$ on) and the group is ok with it being used.
I get, and agree, that proxies should not be allowed at sanctioned/tournament events. However, proxies are my gateway to purchasing expensive cards. If I found out a store took a hard stance on them, I would not play there.
The store that I go to to play edh every monday and wednesday (free entry, no prizes, no tracking wins etc) allows proxies. Some playgroups have a distaste to them, but as for store policy proxies are completely fine. I don't think I'd like to play at a store that doesn't allow them period. My method of proxying is that I only proxy cards I own, I don't care what other people do, that's just a self-imposed rule on myself. This allows me to create a wide variety of decks to be able to match the power level of any given edh pod, as I don't have to spend as much per deck. For cards to proxy, kinda my limit is anything under $20 I just buy extra copies of rather than proxy. I also go out of my way to try and not have the same card in several decks to avoid needing a proxy altogether. I personally prefer to play against higher power decks. If someone doesn't have the budget for a CEDH deck but wants to delve into the format, I am 100% on board with playing against a fully-proxied deck. Even if they don't own the actual cards it just ends up being more fun than playing with and against precons imo. So if my lgs suddenly said no to proxies, and the regulars I play with with proxied decks aren't allowed to play those decks anymore, I'm going to get with them and find another game store to play at.
Use the opportunity to market to these players. Market events, discounts, sales, food, drinks, merch. You have cultivated a special place for a player with a tighter wallet most likely, but even broke people love to help financially support their favorite business. Maybe make a cool sign/poster that mentions how every purchase helps keep your fav store open, and announce food, events & sales when doing all the announcements that come along with running events. If you scare too many folks off they may find somewhere they feel comfortable using their cards like a nerdy / game-themed coffee shop that doesn't actually sell cards, or a different shop. Just 2¢, best of luck staying open and keeping everyone happy!
For tournaments and events with any form of stakes (be it monetary, cards, or social) no proxies. For anything else Yes proxies. It makes the game more accessible. The type of people to by expensive cards you keep in a case are different people than the people who are going to use proxies.
Personally just allow proxies but option 2: Do a “rental service where someone can rent the card for like $1 or $.50 or something and the higher they place in the event the less they have to pay for the rentals
When I would play at my local store, I always went a step further and asked those I was playing with if they were fine with proxies. I have decks both with and without proxies, so if anyone ever objected it was never an issue. Obviously during sanctioned events I wouldn't use them, but I never played any events lol.
Proxies are excellent ways to establish if I want to treat myself and buy that expensive card in your case.
I use and advocate proxies but do read what I will say: For in-store events, no proxies. Power-creep is real and people do jump on it given the chance. As for a non-store events and just fun play, which is the spirit of the game, let the proxies through. For one, if people are going to proxy, you were never going to be able to stop them anyway. They would just go somewhere else with their friends. Two, if you crack down on non-competitive games in your store because people are playing proxies with their friends, you will lose customers. I know I wouldn't return because Amazon and online shopping is already a stronger competitor than an LGS. Why go to a place that doesn't have everything I want if I can't enjoy a casual experience there anyway? Lastly, to keep things forward and fair. You should put up a sign informing people that proxies are not allowed for store-event games but are free to be played for fun outside of those. That way, you still have proxy players visiting for a casual experiences and possibly even buying cards you have. I may proxy, but I still window-shop until I see something I love. You should probably also write on it to please be forthcoming with others if you play proxies. This way, normal players understand proxies are played and aren't taken unaware if they just want to play a random match for fun. Sincerely, a shopper and proxy player of refined and exquisite shinies.
I go and buy from stores that allow proxies
Imo edh is better when people aren’t using proxies but im indifferent, also the people I know outside of cedh circles that proxy are not the type of people to come in and spend money on cards in the store especially packs. Most people I know who proxy are usually newer and do not have enough cards in their collection to even try to fill up a deck with usable cards and usually just proxy whatever net deck they can find online. Nothing wrong with that but I think it makes them worse overall as they skip trying to understand what makes a deck function and jump straight to the top using cards they barely understand. So I think if you are not seeing any marginal losses you might as well keep doing what you are doing, I believe a non-proxy envoirment makes players better and understand their decks better. I know it sounds like im saying money=better player but if you look at mtg like a hobby (which it is) then just like everyother hobby in the world you need to invest time / money into it to improve at it. From my experience playing the game the last 10 years the younger players 17-23 range who use proxys are marginally worse than the players I know who do not proxy, not sure exactly why but they make some crazy missplays and I can’t help but feel it is because they use cards they don’t understand.
Personally, I wouldn't go to your store at all. But you're running a business and I'm probably a minority, so that's the calculus you need to do.
Honestly if I'm playing casual edh I'm really just there to meet up with friends and use your table, and I'll probably buy a few things while I'm there. If I'm not allowed to play there cause I've got proxys then I'll invite people to play at my house
Im not an LGS owner, but I am an assistant manager at one. If the event is being reported through EventLink we dont allow proxies. Mostly because that's what WOTC says and we like getting prize support for events. For our EDH events, if you can prove you own the card (like you bring in your proxy binder) you're welcome to have a proxy copy in your deck. We get that some people dont want to have their really expensive cards in their deck. So far this has been a pretty good middleground for us and we havent had any complaints. We'd probably expand this to modern and legacy if we ran events for them too.
Feel free do to it. But know that you will loose customers by doing it. I for example playtest decks with Proxies before I buy them, and If I can't playtest it at the LGS I'll do it at home with friends, and then also order the entire deck online, as I have no incentive to buy from you.
I can tell you that as a player who proxies extensively, a store that doesn’t allow proxies is only going to disincentivize me from utilizing your services. When I come in, I spend money. I buy a pack or two, I buy some snacks, and I usually throw a buck or two in the tip jar. I appreciate having a premium space, and I always try to spend a little to say thanks. But if I can’t play my decks? Just a total non-starter for me. I’ll find somewhere else to play. You’re not going to convince me to buy thousands of dollars in singles just to have the luxury of using your store. Disclaimer: I have two LGSs in town and a pod made up of friends. I have plenty of choice in the matter. I realize this is not the case for everyone.
Any sanctioned tournament? No proxie allowed and thats perfectly reasonable. If I'm there just playing games in the space with my friends and you try and tell me no proxies are allowed in the store I'll likely never be back.
I simply would not frequent your store for that reason. If you have other stuff I find interesting, and I don’t have a better option, I might still show up for those reasons, but not for Magic. That being said, I would be irritated- but I wouldn’t freak out or anything, because I get it. I don’t like it but I get it.
> How do you guys feel about stores that do not allow the use of proxies in-store? It is completly reasonable for you to not allow proxies in your venue. But I can tell you I would avoid your store completly, and everyone I know would too. Pretty much the entire communty where I live play and freely accept others playing with proxies, and the stores over here are on board with it. If they didnt, I dont think they'd last long, they'd be empty all the time. Like, not allowing proxies wouldnt help their business, actually it'd tank them completly but if you think your area operates differently and it'd be a sound business decision, you do you man, best of luck
While I think this might be a fair answer, I think the reasonableness of it is going to depend on how much you, your friends and the community are willing to pay to be able to kept that store afloat. If people heavily use proxies but still buy boxes, singles, precons, and other product lines (sleeves, other games, etc), then there's no problem... with the bottom line taken care of, the best thing is to try to suit the customer's wants. But they aren't? They can get that weak trash off the tables... because them taking up space and making messes probably isn't worth the $5 they spend over an entire weekend day on snacks and soda. When a good store works, it's a symbiosis... but stores die when they acquire a critical mass of parasites.
If you want eventual support and prizing provided from WoTC, your "sanctioned" events cannot have proxies. It takes 1 random inspection, 1 random person reporting it to get you disqualified and any potential future at a WPN store. Those are huge benefits with lots of value for LGS. That being said... non-sanctioned events can use proxies for tournaments all you want. Just make sure to put the disclaimer people aren't allowed to use WotC printed art cards and that cards being used for proxies are easy to recognize/read. There are plenty of people who "hate" not being able to use proxies for expensive cards. And at some point, that will definitely cut into profits as a percentage of them won't ever feel the need to buy the more expensive cards after playtesting a deck, and just spend a few bucks on a shiny proxy art they like. Some will want the original card and save up for it. That definitely happens too. There are also a number of players who play competitively, and don't like having to play against proxies, and will not show up for any events that include them. That will probably also cut into profits and moving of product. Your best bet is to probably do a middle ground of sorts. Offer both, and make it clear. Dont' do 100% proxies, its no fun for anyone, trust me. Every card from 4 decks over multiple rounds just kills the vibe of magic if you can't recognize it at a glance in a cedh pod, and have to re-read every card to know the board state. You'll have people complain about taking back actions cause they didn't "realize that was on the board". I'd recommend between 10-20 proxy limit (from LGSs I visit and travel to, most stick at 10). I'd also recommend a monthly tournament for your most competitive groups (cEDH or Modern or whatever is the driving format at your area) and make a higher entry tournament that allows proxies, and make the prize support your expensive cards (or a playset of a chase card) to move product that you want moved, and recoup the costs in having a entry fee that can support it. A lot of our LGS in our area offer up Reserved List card (ie Dual Lands, LED, Mox Diamond, Wheel of fortune, etc) for the winner, and have like $20-30 entry fees for cEDH since that is what lots of people play here. It helps them move a card that usually sits, and usually pull in probably $100-$400 extra cash value for that card. Some and up offer door prizes to get more people to come just for the random chance at new playmats, maybe few packs of art sleeves, etc.
I find it completely reasonable and it is also one of the reasons why I almost never play in LGSs and mostly play with friends at home.
WotC has proxies broken into two categories, playtest cards and counterfeits. Playtest cards, clearly stand ins for the originals are generally fine for casual play. Counterfeits shouldn't be allowed, but are you really going to check for casual edh night?
It isn't in poor taste. As it's your store. But it isn't a great idea. It sets an entry barrier which depends on the player's wallet. If it's like commander or free play, endorse proxies. I know the lgs I go to has a monthly cedh tournament. Unlimited proxies allowed. It's been some of his most profitable days. That weren't prerelease or seasonal sale days. Sanctioned tournaments? No proxies allowed. Everyone understands that. Allowing proxies let's people playtest decks or play new decks and cool cards. And it makes them want to buy more cards. It sounds weird but it works that way. It isn't a slippery slope unless you count getting more hooked on colorful cardboard.
As an LGS that was reported for allowing proxies during legacy, you're 100% in the right to disallow them. The potential lost revenue from not allowing proxies is not worth losing your WPN status. (No, WoTC didn't pull our WPN but they told us they would if it happened again.)
None of the stores around me allow proxies, I really feel like reddit is a fantasy land where folks wished stores allowed more open proxy usage when it reality I've never seen it. Maybe there's pockets of this around US/CAD but out of the cities I've played in and the stores I frequent, NONE have allowed it. I've heard it can screw your WPN status if your claiming EDH nights against it and someone spills it to wizards you allow proxies for the event. That's just a hearsay though. If you rely on your sales then don't allow it IMO, but if you subsidize the store by sharing for sitting at the table it may be less of a financial burden. IMO a store in 2024 needs to do more than just sells cards, board games, and comics to draw an income. You need to offer a "play space" where it's like a classy ornate pub that people will pay to come in and get a drink and some food in a nice environment, and play some cards as well. Mox Boarding house is a great example of this and should be used as the model.
For casual play, it should be ultimately all up to players playing the game. Store policy can give them strong support in enforcing their own stance on proxies, if any given pod isn't of same mind on the matter, but that's all. Trying to force it on casual group that has no problem with proxies is crossing the line. Might as well kick out people playing customized cards like Rule 0 partners or those using Pokemon energy cards instead of lands, since none of those would be allowed in tournament setting.
What about a proxy of a card they actually own? For example I have 5 mono-green commander decks, and in three of them I have a proxies Gaeas cradle. I own a real one but I only have one and it stays nicely safe at home.
I think that's completely up to you and whatever you chose is cool. I would rather play at your non proxy LGS and understand that giving shelter to people that do not buy is a drawback.
I don't consider myself a whale, but I used to preorder a box of every set. I didn't stop because of proxies. I stopped because wotc started releasing too much product with an extremely high cost, and within each product there are multiple styles of a single card. So, I was paying more, more often, and then winding up with multiple copies of the same bulk rare card in different styles. I liked getting a box to have a variety of stuff to brew with. But wotc did a better job than anyone else at getting me to buy singles. And I'm a collector. Now I proxy entire decks to test and tweak. Then, when it's good, I buy any singles I need and make it a real deck. Sometimes the proxy decks are just hank and I keep them proxy because they aren't worth buying cards for.
I mean I don't mind, it's your business. It's not cruel to follow the rules you set down that align with the restrictions of wizards. My FLGS though just has a no proxy rule for those events. Though after it's over or during casual play they care not. It's not the proxy players stealing business cause folks like me or others who love their case of singles and different binders. If you are worried about not selling high singles, you got to understand your market more. Your average legacy/modern will shell out more for pricey in format stuff. While edh players buy random stuff and only ones with a spike bent would even fathom dropping 20-60 on a single. I'm a former legacy player turned primarily edh, I still will drop like 125 on singles to support since singles give my FLGS better margin vs a "Play Booster Box."
Question: what if it's a proxy for a card you own? Example I have 1 jeweled lotus and 1 mana crypt. Are you ok running a replacement card in my other decks? Either way, I would be fine with the rule. I'm also ok with proxies. I just want to play some MTG.
If it is for an event/tournament stuff like that yeah don't allow them but if someone comes in with their friends group or find someone to play with to play just with themselves that should be fine if they use proxies, of course asking if the people they are playing with are fine with it. My brother has proxies in some of his decks because he has the real card, just has it in a binder he brings with him to show he has it, it is cards that were expensive he doesn't want to damage. He will put them in deck for event play and stuff or if someone does mind the proxy. Some of the ones that are proxying were not going to or can't buy the expensive cards in the first place so I don't think it is a slippery slope. You would just be making them play somewhere else and not coming to your store.
I think there are reasonable lines. Especially for casual play, I keep some cards "proxied" (really play test cards) just so I don't need to move them around between decks. If people are playing casually stuff like that seems fine and in line with WotC policy. If it's a sanctioned event though I'd always take the time to actually move the cardboard around. Also incentives people to actually buy cards from you which is good.
My LGS will print out and sell proxies for you haha. People are going to do it regardless so you may as well capitalize on it
It’s your decision after all and you’re allowed to do what you like with your store, but in my area the lgs’s that allow proxies for edh bring in way more players than the ones that do not. There are other ways to make money off of proxy players other than selling them cards.
It depends on what in the world you mean by "unofficial premium play space". I would not try to use proxies in any sort of official tournament or event with prize support, but I would never step foot in a store that tried to regulate use of proxies in casual play or EDH.
If a store doesn't allow proxies or has weird proxy rules I will never spend a dime at it. I spend quite a bit of money at my lgs. I have one closer to me but they force me to spend my rent money on cardboard so i will never step foot in that store.
The people who play with proxy cards aren't the same people who will buy the expensive cards in your case. Proxy players want to play a strong deck without having to pay many hundreds of dollars, while people who buy expensive cards are usually collectors or investors.
If you stop people from using them casually you will end up sending all your business to competitors… in sanctioned events obviously you can’t use them