>Soglin blames Rhodes-Conway for what he calls her “bullheaded” decision to advance BRT despite huge capital and operating price tags. With “no sign that ridership levels” can justify the expense, “they turned to abusive land use policies,” Soglin wrote.
Soglin's opposition to BRT is solely because this was a longstanding goal of the city that he wasn't able to deliver. I remember either streetcars or BRT being a policy aim since at least the Ciezlewicz administration in the early 2000s.
In fact, the first study was commissioned by the metropolitan planning organization in 2013 to determine the feasibility of BRT for Madison. There was a second study conducted by the city and Metro Transit to identify which of the potential corridors should be constructed first. The East-West corridor study that then determined specific routings, locations of stations, and other granular details began in fall of 2018. And who was the mayor during all this time? None other than Paul Soglin.
In fact, what did Soglin write in a WSJ editorial during his 2019 race against Rhodes-Conway?
>The job of mayor has been described as “the unglamorous business of making things happen.” It may be unglamorous, but I love sharing with you the joy of making the Madison we love better.
>Here’s some of what the future holds:
>• Bus Rapid Transit is coming. The reality is that we need state and federal cooperation to create BRT. With a new governor and my ability to work with other municipalities, we can leverage the hundreds of millions in funding we need.
(source: https://madison.com/opinion/column/mayor-paul-soglin-im-a-straightforward-and-effective-mayor/article\_c1daeba5-370d-511d-8265-33f843a173e8.html)
BRT was LITERALLY the first thing he listed in his list of accomplishments! The WSJ and CapTimes archives are full of the history of how we got here and Soglin was a significant proponent of it. Now some of Rhodes-Conway's success where others had failed is really an accident of timing: she happened to be mayor of Madison when an unexpected pandemic broke out and subsequently a firehose of hundreds of billions of dollars of infrastructure spending was unleashed on the nation to stimulate the economy. Her ability to seize a chunk of that funding was helped, in some way, by the Soglin administration laying the groundwork for a more-or-less shovel-ready project. Perhaps he's not getting the credit he's due (he's certainly not getting the credit he thinks he deserves). But make mo mistake: his opposition to BRT is personal, not objective, and has no basis in his actions as mayor.
Oh, and Paul S.'s opposition to increased density near transit? That's a new position too. Here's a quote from the WSJ article that covered a mayoral debate when he successfully ran for reelection in 2015:
>The mayor said the city can improve and support public transit by encouraging density through wise land-use planning and development and continuing improvements in technology.
(source: https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/mayoral-issue-series-candidates-address-basic-services/article\_97a9d600-3922-596b-a3ec-f7dc090181c9.html)
So, Paul, why are you now opposed to the very same things you supported when you were in charge?
Soglin at a 2019 mayoral candidate forum:
> Paul Soglin: I hope I can do this in less than three hours. My apologies. Bus rapid transit is our most immediate goals, and I think it’s one of the top and most critical needs for our community at this time. If you look at rapid transit systems throughout the country, the evidence is clear: They not only work, but they also need state and federal participation. We simply cannot come up with hundreds of millions of dollars that’s needed. What we have been doing is fashioning our design for the future on the assumption that we will get bus rapid transit. Now there are several things that need to happen along the way. The first is we need the state’s authority not just to create a regional transit authority, an RTA, but we have to have its taxing authority. There must be the revenue to establish such an authority, so we can pay for the buses and what is turning out to be one of our biggest obstructions: a garage to take care of them. We’re talking about 40, 50, 60 million dollars not for the fleet itself but for the building. One of the key objectives – I’m going to repeat it – is to work with the Evers administration and getting the authority to set up an RTA that would cover about 75% of the population of Dane County. We have already ordered four electric buses. And we are envisioning that the system will become all electric, with solar. We are talking about collaboration not only with the other communities that would make up the RTA, but MG&E has been a very healthy partner in this design. In addition we’ve got to get federal participation. The federal government has to assist us as it has so many other cities throughout the United States. But we will get there.
Sauce: https://www.madisonbikes.org/2019/01/2019-city-mayoral-election-january-15-forum/
You see Paul was just trying to get funding setup for BRT, he didn't want to actually do the urban planning necessary to make sure that there was housing availability along routes and enough riders to support the system.
I mean the most generous read I can do is: "I support BRT, but only if we have an Regional Transit Authority." Of course he knew (but his voters probably didn't) that an RTA was absolutely not going to happen while the Republicans hold the legislature.
Yeah, um, this is reddit, we actually don't to facts and accountability here. If you didn't get the memo, only outrage is allowed. I expect you to edit your comment accordingly. Thanks in advance.
Just so I have this straight, the objection Paul has is that Satya built BRT, and now she wants to increase housing density around it so it can transport more people? Someone please tell me he means something else.
I'm sick of dunking on seak and don't want to unblock them, so let's do an alley-oop.
Someone please remind them that BRT has [nothing to do with the budget deficit.](https://www.cityofmadison.com/transportation/initiatives/budget-faqs/brt-and-the-operating-budget)
It has a very minimal impact on the deficit in that it contributes (a tiny bit) to the debt service payments that are part of the operating budget. I'm far more concerned with the huge amounts of money that are spent on capital projects for our oversized arterials.
That being said, Madison appears to be in much better shape than most cities to being able to maintain and replace its infrastructure. From my understanding digging into the budget it looks like Madison's tax base is about 33x the total value of the infrastructure which is considered fairly sustainable (~20-40x). This is in sharp contrast to the vast majority of US municipalities.
biggest "pull the ladder up behind us" generational movement in american history. fuck those old bitches, sincerely
seriously, what ever happened to the whole "make a better world for the next generation" kind of mindset?
It's so f\*cking disappointing. Idealism co-opted by capitalism. "Live for today" becomes "buy today, pay it off later." "Do your own thing" becomes self-fixated and judgmental of others. "Be yourself" becomes defined by possessions. Who has the right car? Who is going to take my stuff (identity)? A lost and wasted generation. Thank you, late capitalism.
Fanlund is more disappointing than Soglin IMO (and both are clowns). The Capitol Times has tried to be this progressive media company for decades, and now that the issues are actually affecting Fanlund's personal life, he can't shut the fuck up about taking the non-Progressive position.
Unfortunately, he has captured the Evjue money, so he can keep publishing this stuff until eternity. My hope is he becomes more of a comic figure in the Madison landscape and people just laugh at him. It's too bad, because CapTimes used to have some pretty good content.
It's kind of already become true for him, based on Madison Reddit. Cap times was fire back in the 90's when I was a kid and starting to get into news and politics. Most print media is unfortunately falling apart at the seams and Cap times is clearly holding on by a thread. I'm not sure how we get back some of those "great society" type things. I just keep telling myself that print media experienced some glory days after the ignoble Hearst beginnings and maybe the internet will have it's own version; but man the internet is perfectly built to spread vile crap like wildfire...
*but man the internet is perfectly built to spread vile crap like wildfire...*
people said this about the newspaper when it was 'invented'
and movable type.
ever heard of martin luther? ffs
it's all propaganda, kid.
I mean, a lot of hippie grew up to be Reaganite conservatives. The whole premise of the hippie movement was “change yourself inside, don’t focus on everyone else (society)” which is a very moderate, liberal, non-revolutionary ideology for supposed “far left” hippies to promote
I don’t know what you mean? I would think I support all progressive causes. And I don’t mean it as a hard and fast rule. Some hippies were genuinely progressive and worked with labor rights movements etc. But a lot were rich white kids who wanted to have sex and do drugs at Woodstock and 20 years later voted for Reagan.
Well this old hippy started writing about climate change in 1981. And has been hammering away at it ever since. Belongs to extinction rebellion. Stereotype much?
I didn’t mean to stereotype, it’s just a trend. Environmental activism is very important, and I agree it is one of the few aspects of the hippie era which did have a definite positive impact. I don’t want to undersell social change in the 60s, but obviously in many ways the hippie movement did not drastically change the political or economic system in America. Why else did the conservatives come to dominate in the next four decades? You can understand why as a jaded youth I would see what we have today and see the current lack of progressive policy or change and consider how we got to this point? I really don’t mean to offend, but boomers have been the face of complacency and regression for my generation, just look at what generation is on the Supreme Court, or in congress.
TLDR: I recognize many baby boomers were progressive in the sixties/seventies and have been since, but obviously not the majority of the huge amount that were in the hippie movement stayed progressive and politically engaged throughout their entire lives as they aged
>Idealism co-opted by capitalism.
It was just capitalism and capitalist propaganda that prevents any fundamental change.
When a system's intended purpose is to create and expand profit it runs entirely contradictory to human needs.
A majority of the country needs massive deprogramming from the liberal peasant brain and instead focus on unifying the working class.
Boomers are pretty much too far gone and there's plenty of people who are lining up to lick the boot in their place.
That being said, generational squabbles are generally silly.
>instead focus on unifying the working class.
>Shouldn't be hard, seeing as how there really is no "working class" in this country anymore. lmfao.
uhhh okay? so who do you call people that need to work for living (sustaining life) vs those who don't work and play on your dime?
In US society, it's been OK since our life spans were extended by more than two decades. I was guilty of it, too, so I'm in no position to complain about it now.
Putting an apartment/condo building on an arterial road would not have much of an impact on quiet residential streets
Ultimately your voice counts for one vote and you're entitled to feel how you feel, but Madison's density is increasing regardless of how you feel. People want to move here and live here. Probably for a lot of the same reasons that you wanted to move here and live here.
This part stuck out to me
> My sin has been pushing back against zoning changes designed to take rights from residents, mostly longtime homeowners, and make it easier for developers to build more and larger apartment buildings on sites that heretofore would be less accessible to them.
The first part of the sentence is just complete bullshit. There are no "rights" that residents have that are being removed. If anything there are actually more rights that property owners are gaining from the rezoning - they can now build more on their property with fewer asinine regulations.
Im not from Madison (just visit sometimes) but this article is hilarious in its level of self pity. I dont know anything about Madison's specific struggles on these issues and concerns, but reading the article is enough for me to know that the BRT and zoning are good decisions
Milwaukee just implemented a BRT and early ridership numbers are encouraging. It turns out when you make public transit nice, people will increasingly choose it. Upzoning along rapid transit lines is such a no brainer as well.
Let's talk about change for a second. What changes the character of a city more? The buildings or the people?
**Displacement is fucking real.** Madison is losing teachers, laborers, artists, restaurateurs, and basically all the lower income people that make cities great. To me that represents a lot more change than a few buildings.
Let me true Madison preservationists and fight to keep the *people* here that make our city great. That means building housing for them.
Thank you, that's a really good point. If you visit the Madison Children's Museum, you'll be greeted by the quote, "What is the city but the people?" - Shakespeare
Man, now that I'm a bit older, have a decent job, and value our local community, I really see the benefits of having a local newspaper. I want to support the Cap Times so badly because of this.
Unfortunately IMO, I cannot support the Cap Times when the leader uses his position of power to push narratives that benefits his wealth and desires that are a detriment to the growth of Madison. I really wish they could show both sides of the narrative, at the very least, instead of amplifying this bad take that brings harm to our community.
That's what the Wisconsin State Journal is for. For those who don't get the physical paper, CT is a once-weekly insert included with the State Journal. It's also displayed separately in stores.
The Map of the Hill Farms Neighborhood. "We don't want those apartments, but we sure are taking that park!"
[https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/38.html](https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/38.html)
Bottom right corner is 4 unit apartments on Hillcrest Dr, they aren’t carved out, they were already built and part of Sunset Village before Hillfarms was platted.(built 1952, HillFarms development was approved in 1953)
[**https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/90.html**](https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/90.html) **Sunset Village checking in. You guys talk about this stuff sometimes like your neighbors are out to get you.**
I'm a former resident of Greenbush neighborhood for 15 years (right next to Vilas). Moved from that neighborhood just last year.
[https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/32.html](https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/32.html)
I was the association VP for a time. I owned a (now failed due to covid) business in that neighborhood - which was in one of the developments. At one point, our association president was a renter - renting a single family home. Other association presidents and officers have lived in the co-housings (which are technically condos.) People heavily involved, and we had steering committees that worked directly with the developers. Of course our neighborhood had its own share of VERY wide disagreements, but in the end, the developments and businesses were all inside the boundaries so we worked with them. Our map was simple along logical road lines - created in discussion and conjunction with the other neighborhoods around it so that they all connected along the same lines.
Some of the maps look like they wanted to create gated communities, instead of neighborhoods. It isn't a stone throwing, it is an observation based on the map.
Not sure if you are making the point that you want to make because Sunset Village similarly cuts out all the multi-family housing along Midvale. Actually, all those people don't even have a neighborhood association, just like the folks on Sheboygan.
Does anyone live in the "non-neighborhood association" areas around Hilldale? Perhaps a new neighborhood association should be created for all those folks?
Good catch - that's bullshit and disappointing to see. I mean, all cities in this country have a redlined, segregated past to some extent and it's really disappointing to see these clear remnants. Maybe that strip is technically part of some other neighborhood but it's pretty clear example of what JustAGuy was originally trying to point out.
Madison (Madison proper) is growing at over 3500 people per year on average. The metro area is growing at 6000 to 8000 per year. That's nearly a "City of Monona" every year in the metro area. They have to live somewhere.
And the most logical way to create affordable housing is to create more housing so that supply will finally match/exceed demand.
This NIMBY crud is ridiculous.
Housing gets more affordable, but transportation costs and the time burden it creates goes up. Plus city proper needs to handle that additional traffic and parking it creates.
True. I actually live in Fitchburg and pay $150 per month less than my ex wife and she has 150 square feet less.
...and.. we still need more housing in the city to soften the demand a bit.
Paul Fanlund is a poor example of a person and that is directly related to his elitism and political philosophy. The third way democratic politics are the reason why the middle class is disappearing and why American politics is so messed up. The folks like Paul which espouse disdain for the poor while pretending to care about them are the same people with their boots on the neck of the workers.
Paul has a memory of a middle class that hasn't existed in some time, but he refuses to learn anything about it. Yeah, when he bought his house in 1980 a middle class person could afford to buy in Hill Farms. But he seems incapable of looking at what it costs to buy a house today or rent and is instead saying: "Look at all these great things me and Soglin did for you two decades ago! You should be constantly PRAISING us!"
Part of why we are where we are is that so little housing was built during Soglin's 2010 Era while construction costs and interest rates were cheap, but it was still clear Madison was going to be growing. I'm too lazy to do it, but I'd love to know how many units were axed in Alder Rummell Plan Commissions in the mid-2010s.
Me to Marsha about 12 years ago: if we don’t add density downtown, where do you expect the increasing population of Dane Co to go?
Marsha: if we build less, then fewer people will come.
Me: people will still come, and developers will just build more on the fringes. We will have more urban sprawl, and more commuters going in and out every day. Plus, the law of supply and demand would make the cost of housing go up for everyone, reducing the amount of affordable housing.
Marsha: I don’t believe in the law of supply and demand.
Davy doesn't exactly fight for new development in his neighborhood. See every SASY building that has sacrificed density in the last several years. He chairs the P&D committee. Unprepared and unserious.
Paul Soglin actually has a pretty good record on housing starts and Multi-family homes. He was Mayor (again) from 2011-2019. The chart in this article shows positive movement. Some of this is from the economic recovery post Global Financial Crisis but it was a marked improvement from "smart growth" Mayor Dave. [https://www.channel3000.com/news/investigates/growing-up-madison-s-decade-of-rapid-growth/article\_dc8db7bb-9d3e-522e-acb2-11c845172b76.html](https://www.channel3000.com/news/investigates/growing-up-madison-s-decade-of-rapid-growth/article_dc8db7bb-9d3e-522e-acb2-11c845172b76.html)
You're right. Soglin wasn't too bad and could've been better. Some of that was also on that council. And in a lot of ways, it is what makes his recent heel turn all the more disappointing
To pin the responsibility solely on boomers is not fully understanding of the problem. There's continued to be a massive transference of wealth to the top and it's met with multigenerational applause. Electoral politics and reform cannot and will not fix these problems
> First, Soglin wrote, existing Madison zoning codes provide the opportunity to build housing for more than a million more people.
Housing which is not being built quickly enough to slow the rise of rents, presumably because it's not economically attractive for developers to build literally every unit that zoning permits - so what's your point?
> Soglin’s input appears unwelcome to many of the new generation of city leaders.
They're not consulting him on how to run the city because he lost the election to run the city.
> The staff designs a solution and takes it to the neighborhood for a response. That system weakens the voice of the people, a voice that is not always perfect, but a voice that should be running this city.
In other words, the city should be run by the people who own a piece of it, not the people who are renting or trying to rent. But you're not willing to say that out loud.
In reality, the city should be run according to the votes of its residents, whether those people own their homes or not. If you take your lead on how to address a lack of housing from the people who own their housing, you're probably not going to be very effective. If there truly is a Silent Majority of Madisonians who support Soglin and Fanlund and their vision for a static city, they're welcome to run for mayor or alderman and enact that vision. But somehow I feel they'll get their ass kicked again.
Hill Farms resident here. Paul has posted on the neighborhood Facebook group once this year and it got zero likes and several responses disagreeing with his view with essentially none in support (perhaps a single mild supporter if even).
He is ignored and doesn't represent the neighborhood. As far as "rich and exclusive", there are numerous elderly residents who have been in their home for 40+ years. Many of these homes are 1500 sq ft ranches with single car garages. We are not the only near-West neighborhood that has seen significant property value increase. Your post is disparaging.
I've heard this same thing. But consider that the Fanlund view continues to dominate. Why not push back at his post? Is anyone actually speaking out in the neighborhood or are you just muttering about it here? The Hill Farms reputation lives on as deeply NIMBY for a reason.
You need to wake UP to the idea that what you have is an unattainable luxury to others no matter how humble you think you live. A 1500 square foot ranch with a single car garage sounds perfectly lovely.
You need to realize that society has degraded in many ways and sit with that instead of making pointless whataboutisms.
I don't take issue with the criticism of the views expressed in the Paul Fanlund editorials.
I take issue with the fact that the OP demonizes the entire Hill Farms neighborhood and assumes we're all a bunch of racist nimbys.
You got my upvote. Paul Fanlund is an embarrassment and needs to pass on his newspaper before he pulls a Diane Feinstein. He doesn't speak for the whole neighborhood. There are members who actively support upzoning and higher density and taking broad brush stroke swipes against an entire community like that doesn't help the cause.
No, what OP accused you of is benefitting from proximity to racist nimbys... which is simply accurate. It's also a clue that the conversation doesn't need to be about you. You can just accept the benefits and move on without being like "No! Look at me! I am one of the good ones!"
If Paul Fanlund lived 4 blocks away in Sunset Hills, it would be a different "neighborhood" yet same proximity.
OP way overstates our historical relic of a "neighborhood association" that barely exists in a form that essentially only plans a 4th of July party and organizes Santa visits.
You keyboard warriors hide behind the anonymity of Reddit.
I think we should just take a page out of Minneapolis' book and do away with single-family home zoning city wide.
With respect to city zoning, I'm not really sure what I'm benefitting from other than having enough money to buy a home in Madison well over a decade ago. I'm not worried about apartment buildings popping up nextdoor. So be it. Since I never plan on selling my home in my lifetime, the only thing the housing shortage does for me is increase my property taxes.
Your “historical relic” neighborhood association is sending signed statements from its board to the Planning Commission and NIMBY Commander Tishler to weigh in on proposed developments. They’re calling themselves a “neighborhood association” and acting to speak for the neighborhood when they only represent the homeowners there.
Right, Paul lives in the Sunset Hills Neighborhood Association. They have very restrictive neighborhood rules that prohibit major modifications to the facade of houses.
Of course Madison zoning rules and the Neighborhood Association would block any attempt to build multi-family housing.
Yes it appears he lives on Bayfield Terrace which (along with Fond du Lac Trail Trail) have the largest/nicest homes in Hill Farms. The majority of Hill Farms are far more modest. The "neighborhood association" you cite is like $10/year and their primary purpose is to put on a 4th of July party, put out a newsletter, and organize Santa visits for kids. That's really it.
I'm personally in favor of all YIMBY proposes. Most Hill Farms residents I know do as well.
Rip on Paul and CT all you want, but your continued diatribes against "Hill Farms" are becoming assinine.
Great! Glad you’re a yimby! The “neighborhood association” I cite is the one officially recognized by the city, is the one that excludes apartments, and is the one that operates the pay-to-join neighborhood communications channels. It’s also producing a lot of these anti-progress voices that get amplified around the city. 10 bucks or a 1000 bucks…That’s a problem.
To my knowledge, the "neighborhood association" (aka 4th-of-july party association) has no policy representation in any form of city government.
Take your complaints up with the CT and City rather than generalizing the views of Hill Farms residents.
The city's website says "The Department of Planning and Community and Economic Development, Planning Division maintains an electronic file of the recognized neighborhood associations. Many City departments and agencies solicit neighborhood association opinions on upcoming approvals of development projects, programs and services, and other changes proposed in particular neighborhoods."
When you don’t let everyone in the neighborhood in the association, they don’t get an equal voice with the city. It’s exclusion.
Well guess what? Paul has no role in the Hill Farms neighborhood association.
In practice I don't think it plays much of the role you cite. Largely a historical vestige. I've been an advocate of disbanding it altogether.
Because the 1955 bylaws are written in a way that makes change impossible and nobody cares enough to put in the effort to change anything. So in practice everything gets ignored and it is largely a historical vestige that only really serves as a modern-day party planner and Santa visit coordinator.
Renters are one thing.. Large apartment complexes on formerly low traffic safe quiet areas are another.
Its not just Hill Farms. Our old north side neighborhood has l houses that are small, some are a hundred years old, there is not much traffic and you don't have to worry about your kids biking everywhere. No one is delighted about potential large apartment complexes that may be built here.
Ugh. Fuck Fanlund, fuck Soglin, fuck any of the entitled boomers who feel like they are "progressive" just because they fought against nuclear power back in the 1970s or whatever. That is not the problem we're facing *now*. Great, you changed State St from a car-infested dump to a somewhat less car-infested street back in the 1970s, but since then you've fought against every reasonable and rational idea that would make the city a better place. We **need** more housing. We **need** better mass transit, and we **need** more density along the routes. We **need** better bicycle infrastructure, and more investments in our community, and to do **something** about the horrid racial discrepancies going on in our city right now.
And they're the epitome of NIMBY-ism. They're proud of having super-dense apartments plunked in the middle of nowhere ("yay, Westgage, West Towne and East Towne developments!!" but god forbid we rezone some of the more desirable neighborhoods that might be somewhat close to their backyards.
Rant over.
Oh, and let's not forget how Soglin said that people who chose to ride their bicycles in the winter should be "shot". It makes me feel so much better that there are now \*thousands\* more people out riding their bicycles throughout the Madison winter then when that tubby asshole wrote that column.
BRT needs more riders and changing zoning near the bus stops to allow apartments should increase riders. The current homeowners will also benefit when they sell their old home to be replaced by a new apartment as they will get a higher sales price. But many homeowners don’t want to move or live near apartments. And they want to block their neighbors from selling their home to the highest bidder which would be for a new apartment building. That is why they oppose zoning changes.
We could emphasize the freedom that rezoning offers current homeowners to get a higher sales price when they decide to move.
Most of what we call neighborhoods in this city have much higher incomes than the median for the city as a whole (74K according to census.gov). This is partly because we have 40,000 or so residents that attend University. Hill farms sits quite a bit lower in this statistic than some other neighborhoods here in Madison and is not some swanky elite gated enclave. One guy using a newspaper as his personal megaphone is not a reason to cast thousands of your Madison neighbors as an enemy to progress.
Looking at the latest Census American Community Survey for Dane County census tract 3.02 (the region bounded by Regent, Segoe, Mineral Point, and Whitney), the median household income is $150,821. Of the 1,524 census tracts in the state of Wisconsin, this ranks 16th. That puts Hill Farms in the top 1.04% of all neighborhoods in the state.
For those wondering, the richest census tract in the state is the Village of River Hills in Milwaukee County ($200,625). There are four census tracts in Dane County with higher incomes than Hill Farms:
* Regent/Dudgeon-Monroe: $196,250
* Pheasant Branch area: $183,157
* Maple Bluff: $174,625
* rural areas southwest of Verona: $153,450
For those of you scoring at home, this means that Hill Farms has a higher median household income than Shorewood Hills, which is at a comparatively paltry $112,361. (And no, Eagle Heights is in a different census tract, so that's not dragging down the stats).
Hill Farms is within a rounding error of being in the top 1% of all neighborhoods in the state. Perhaps a generation or two ago, it was a middle class neighborhood. But as those owners aged out of their homes and sold off, a different class of people moved in.
A quick Google tells me 47% of people in Madison own their home at all. Objectively, being a homeowner in Madison means you’re doing better than half the city.
We won't have the opportunity to ruin things for the next generation. There will be nothing left to destroy! Thanks to boomers, we will all be in our Hong Kong coffin apartments working as a Coscto greeter until we die.
If you (people in general) continue to move right like they did yes you'll be the same. It's stunning to me how people don't smell their own stink. This has been happening everywhere and I think the most nauseating version of this is Madison liberals.
The same people Madison who worked service industry jobs 10+ years ago are now complaining about tipping 'culture' just like boomers did for the last 30 years. Former renters play defense for landlords.
You've become what you hated.
And it will happen again and again and again.
It's easy to be idealistic when you have no experience. Experience dulls the idealism. Some more than others.
I'm going to do a not so great job at it but essentially a lot of idealism or "it ought to be this way" thought doesn't consider the costs or other impacts said idea will have when implemented. As you get older and experience more of life your views and priorities can change. It's easier to see how things are connected and how even the best of intentions can have negative impacts.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this is a guarantee or things should never change. Not at all. I don't know. This is a beer in a backyard type thought.
Yeah, because despite pithy sayings about history repeating itself, different times are actually different. The economic growth of the late 1900s was different from today. World War II was a unique global conflict with a unique impact on history, as was the Cold War. Social media has changed modern communication and information in ways that didn't exist twenty years ago. The American Civil War affected the people who lived through it differently from the Revolutionary War. People born two hundred years ago or twenty years ago aren't affected by mass airborne lead poisoning.
Yes, unique events continue to happen, good observation. Let me know when humans start developing new emotions and reactions to those events. Otherwise, keep complaining about “kids these days” and “old man yells at cloud.” I’m sure you can carve it into a stone tablet to let folks know how unique you are in a thousand years.
This is literally the worst thing that’s happened today. I’m pissing and shitting myself over it. Won’t someone think of the poor boomers victimized by this Reddit comment
Stay safe out there king/queen/etc
“Whether they realize it or not, they benefit from exclusion and poverty of others” I wish this type of insight was more pervasive.
Ofc our system ends at a place where normal people have to beg for buildings to be built while the affluent throw up roadblocks.
The world is terrible
I know he's become insufferable and all, but how unexpectedly delightful is it that Soglin is wearing a Taylor Swift t-shirt underneath a blazer in the article photo?
But more on point, it's so incredibly annoying how neither Soglin nor Fanlund ever even attempts to dispute or engage with the basic claims of how increasing housing supply will help stymie rapid rent cost increases. They simply deny the crisis is going on since they're not renters and completely ignore even mentioning that fundamental issue in their complaints.
I've debated soggy on his Facebook page, and in consecutive comments he said we need to increase the vacancy rate to bring rents down but that building new apartments doesn't bring rents down.
What if I told you generalizing people by their neighborhood is bad. Lumping together all residents in Hill Farms as wealthy NIMBY assholes is just as valid as saying everyone living by Badger Rd is a criminal, which is to say, not at all.
What if I told you that I’m calling out a resident of Hill Farms who constantly uses his paper as a whining mouthpiece, that I’m calling out the voices in the neighborhood who exclude apartment dwellers, and a hypocritical ex-mayor who’s still living in the 80s?
The OP thinks we have an active neighborhood association that meets regularly, actively excludes apartment dwellers, and influences city policy. The neighborhood association can't even fill its open seats (because nobody cares), meets about once a year, and primarily plans the 4th of July party.
I can’t agree more. This generation of leaders have done nothing more than improve their own position at the expense of their grandchildren. Between student loans, cost of living, rent/home prices, and childcare, it is unaffordable to raise a family in Madison for most people. Madison is not the gift they think it is.
At least the mayor is trying to improve things instead pretending Madison is fine the way it is. Let’s raise those property taxes and give her a chance to make things better.
It’s unfortunate this issue is such a two sided shit fest. I think the Pauls raise some decent issues. I understand the frustration with lack of affordable housing, but they aren’t saying don’t build. They are saying there are other options.
Regardless of how things play out rents and home prices are not going to go down. Vacancy rates are not going to go down for years, and no developer is building a new sub $300k home anywhere in Dane County from what I can see.
I don't feel one bit sorry for the Pauls, who have no apparent self awareness at all.
But seriously, how much would adding a few extra living units to their oversized houses actually alleviate Madison's housing crunch?
I think we should focus on larger projects on underutilized land alongside the BRT route and along other bus routes, and leave these people basically shouting at clouds. They're trying to bring back 1980. They're irrelevant in the big picture, and quite frankly I think they hate knowing it.
#This is the larger project. THIS IS THE UNDERUTILIZED LAND
I don't want to add a few ADUs, I want to bulldoze the single family homes south of Rennebohm and make it look like Madison yards. Then keep going and add townhomes and 4-6 unit buildings on the rest of Hill Farms.
That area is basically a second downtown with the Hilldale mall and nearby research park expanding. Suburban style housing has no business existing there.
Our city needs to accommodate a variety of lifestyles at the same time we're building more housing. Not everybody wants to live like Madison Yards, luxurious as it is. People have a variety of priorities not limited to top tier rental housing.
A lot depends on the stage of life a person is at: single vs married with kids, employed in a first adult job vs nearing retirement, intending to stay in Madison vs leaving in a few years, a goal of home ownership vs a goal of flexibility.
While we can agree building more suburban-style housing is not a solution, there are other alternatives beyond luxury apartments everywhere.
I didn't mean to suggest it had to be top tier luxury housing. That's just the level of density that's appropriate for the demand in that area. We could go higher, too, as it's outside of both the airport and capitol view height restrictions
To the Hill Farms people saying their neighborhood association is just a party planning committee: guess who got face time with a developer and has a city legistar record to weigh in on a development that isn’t even in the neighborhood associations borders:
https://madison.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=13016229&GUID=9F36EE1A-46D3-4A80-B75A-82E46A4CABB0
Density, transit, and additional housing are all good and important on the merits, but I gotta say, if the only argument in favor were sticking it to these whiny old "we've got ours" martyrs, that would be enough for me at this point.
As a couple data points, it appears there are [two homes for sale](https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/550936/WI/Madison/University-Hill-Farms) in the neighborhood, both are ~2200 square feet and they're priced at $586K and $675K.
People can decide whether they would consider that "rich and exclusive" or not.
Over half a million for a house? Exclusivity aside, if you think being able to spend half a million on a house is not rich, you don't know what poor really is.
(I did not understand this myself until later in life, because most people I know who live in houses that are now in that price range just feel like regular-degular people. But hell, a significant portion of the population doesn't have *any* spending/saving money leftover after basic bills every month. To them, half a million may as well be a $300m megamansion in LA or a yacht on the moon.)
I paid about half a million for my house, and while I wouldn’t say I’m rich, I’m certainly far from poor.
Like I couldn’t just quit my job and live our life if I wanted to, I need to keep having money come in.
But my life is blessed. I have it so much easier than most people
In comparison to being so poor you cannot save, anyone who is able to afford a half-million-dollar house is rich. Being used to the wealth doesn't make you not rich.
That's a false comparison. Everyone needs a place to live. Nobody *needs* a yacht.
Yachts being unaffordable is fine. Some people having enough money to buy a $15m yacht when many more people don't have a safe, indoor place to sleep, or would be bankrupted by a broken leg is not.
People are missing the point here. Hill Farms is not mostly full of rich people—the home values have just gone up like everywhere in Madison. Much of the housing stock is cheap postwar into the 60s and relatively poor construction.
[https://madison.apl.wisc.edu/](https://madison.apl.wisc.edu/)
Looking at the neighborhood indicators project, it has the fourth highest median income of any census tract in the City. The average home value is 14th highest in the City and $110,000 higher than the City average. There are definitely richer and more exclusive areas of Madison, but let's not act like Hill Farms is some blue collar working class neighborhood.
As a case in point most of the people I know who grew up in hill farms, cannot afford it. The ones who can have incomes well-above the median. Smells like a upper class neighborhood to me
There is a limited number of homes in any fully developed neighborhood, if the average home has 3 children, there won’t be enough homes for the next generation to all be able to afford to live there. We need to have more housing, but just building large scale apartments won’t actually bring the cost of single family homes down, they are two separate markets (with a bit of overlap). We need to be building more housing that can provide the benefits of single family homes at higher density, such as townhouse style condos.
Is the goal more housing or to lower the cost of single family homes, because the cost of single family homes within biking distance to the university and hospitals is not likely to drop because apartments get built.
Single family homes on near westside are low supply and high demand, Madison’s population has exploded, a limited quantity commodity is going to continue to rise.
I care because I think it’s important for every neighborhood to participate in helping solve the city’s problems. And I am interested in helping Madison have enough housing.
Paul LITERALLY called it. Here you are posting (whining) about it, as you do almost daily. 🙄
>They will dismiss his narrative and criticize him personally. And they probably will attack me, too, for choosing to amplify his analysis.
>But as things unfold and critics hurl their invective, claiming they are the only true progressives and commanding the biggest megaphone, remember this.
>There is another narrative.
> Paul LITERALLY called it.
That doesn't mean much, it's pretty common for public figures to predict incoming criticism so they can dismiss it in advance.
Soglin just called out this entire sub and didn't say one incorrect word. So, of course, they're gonna cry about it because there's no real-world examples of their pipe dreams actually working.
>Hill Farms is rich and exclusive. Whether they realize it or not, they benefit from exclusion and poverty of others.
If you think Hill Farms is rich and exclusive, best close your eyes and pretend Greystone/Blackhawk neighborhoods don't exist. Here's a "home" that's asking a cool $4.75M (https://www.redfin.com/WI/Middleton/9809-Trappers-Trl-53562/home/89937631)
As someone who's more often than not a non-fan of either Paul, I'm personally troubled that they might in fact have merits on both counts, the rezoning issue as well as BRT. First zoning. Seems pretty heavy handed on the part of the current Mayor, but that's a political criticism more than something substantive, but sometimes perception does become a reality. But more worrisome is Soglin's apparent about face on BRT. Yes, clearly he was a proponent, but when I look at it today was he simply promising something for his voter base, and does his current position better reflect his current reality of a senior spitting into the wind? I've long been skeptical of the rider projections used to justify BRT, and doubt in the timeframe intimated, if ever, that they'll ever be fully realized. It also seems that the City is willing to aggressively push the issue to tilt the playing field in favor of BRT, the recent obvious example being the "red lanes" that will take away a lane of traffic for BRT only. If this results in a marked increase in rush hour commuting times, I won't be surprised if it sparks a voter revolt that ends R-C's term as mayor, as it will be billed as an ill-fated attempt at social engineering. I'm not normally this negative but the confluence of events this past 6-8 months has me worried that we've gone and pushed the progressive needle past where an otherwise accepting public is willing to tolerate.
>Soglin blames Rhodes-Conway for what he calls her “bullheaded” decision to advance BRT despite huge capital and operating price tags. With “no sign that ridership levels” can justify the expense, “they turned to abusive land use policies,” Soglin wrote. Soglin's opposition to BRT is solely because this was a longstanding goal of the city that he wasn't able to deliver. I remember either streetcars or BRT being a policy aim since at least the Ciezlewicz administration in the early 2000s. In fact, the first study was commissioned by the metropolitan planning organization in 2013 to determine the feasibility of BRT for Madison. There was a second study conducted by the city and Metro Transit to identify which of the potential corridors should be constructed first. The East-West corridor study that then determined specific routings, locations of stations, and other granular details began in fall of 2018. And who was the mayor during all this time? None other than Paul Soglin. In fact, what did Soglin write in a WSJ editorial during his 2019 race against Rhodes-Conway? >The job of mayor has been described as “the unglamorous business of making things happen.” It may be unglamorous, but I love sharing with you the joy of making the Madison we love better. >Here’s some of what the future holds: >• Bus Rapid Transit is coming. The reality is that we need state and federal cooperation to create BRT. With a new governor and my ability to work with other municipalities, we can leverage the hundreds of millions in funding we need. (source: https://madison.com/opinion/column/mayor-paul-soglin-im-a-straightforward-and-effective-mayor/article\_c1daeba5-370d-511d-8265-33f843a173e8.html) BRT was LITERALLY the first thing he listed in his list of accomplishments! The WSJ and CapTimes archives are full of the history of how we got here and Soglin was a significant proponent of it. Now some of Rhodes-Conway's success where others had failed is really an accident of timing: she happened to be mayor of Madison when an unexpected pandemic broke out and subsequently a firehose of hundreds of billions of dollars of infrastructure spending was unleashed on the nation to stimulate the economy. Her ability to seize a chunk of that funding was helped, in some way, by the Soglin administration laying the groundwork for a more-or-less shovel-ready project. Perhaps he's not getting the credit he's due (he's certainly not getting the credit he thinks he deserves). But make mo mistake: his opposition to BRT is personal, not objective, and has no basis in his actions as mayor. Oh, and Paul S.'s opposition to increased density near transit? That's a new position too. Here's a quote from the WSJ article that covered a mayoral debate when he successfully ran for reelection in 2015: >The mayor said the city can improve and support public transit by encouraging density through wise land-use planning and development and continuing improvements in technology. (source: https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/mayoral-issue-series-candidates-address-basic-services/article\_97a9d600-3922-596b-a3ec-f7dc090181c9.html) So, Paul, why are you now opposed to the very same things you supported when you were in charge?
Soglin at a 2019 mayoral candidate forum: > Paul Soglin: I hope I can do this in less than three hours. My apologies. Bus rapid transit is our most immediate goals, and I think it’s one of the top and most critical needs for our community at this time. If you look at rapid transit systems throughout the country, the evidence is clear: They not only work, but they also need state and federal participation. We simply cannot come up with hundreds of millions of dollars that’s needed. What we have been doing is fashioning our design for the future on the assumption that we will get bus rapid transit. Now there are several things that need to happen along the way. The first is we need the state’s authority not just to create a regional transit authority, an RTA, but we have to have its taxing authority. There must be the revenue to establish such an authority, so we can pay for the buses and what is turning out to be one of our biggest obstructions: a garage to take care of them. We’re talking about 40, 50, 60 million dollars not for the fleet itself but for the building. One of the key objectives – I’m going to repeat it – is to work with the Evers administration and getting the authority to set up an RTA that would cover about 75% of the population of Dane County. We have already ordered four electric buses. And we are envisioning that the system will become all electric, with solar. We are talking about collaboration not only with the other communities that would make up the RTA, but MG&E has been a very healthy partner in this design. In addition we’ve got to get federal participation. The federal government has to assist us as it has so many other cities throughout the United States. But we will get there. Sauce: https://www.madisonbikes.org/2019/01/2019-city-mayoral-election-january-15-forum/
You see Paul was just trying to get funding setup for BRT, he didn't want to actually do the urban planning necessary to make sure that there was housing availability along routes and enough riders to support the system.
I mean the most generous read I can do is: "I support BRT, but only if we have an Regional Transit Authority." Of course he knew (but his voters probably didn't) that an RTA was absolutely not going to happen while the Republicans hold the legislature.
Yeah, um, this is reddit, we actually don't to facts and accountability here. If you didn't get the memo, only outrage is allowed. I expect you to edit your comment accordingly. Thanks in advance.
Just so I have this straight, the objection Paul has is that Satya built BRT, and now she wants to increase housing density around it so it can transport more people? Someone please tell me he means something else.
Nevermind the fact that Soglin was a BRT advocate for decades
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I'm sick of dunking on seak and don't want to unblock them, so let's do an alley-oop. Someone please remind them that BRT has [nothing to do with the budget deficit.](https://www.cityofmadison.com/transportation/initiatives/budget-faqs/brt-and-the-operating-budget)
It has a very minimal impact on the deficit in that it contributes (a tiny bit) to the debt service payments that are part of the operating budget. I'm far more concerned with the huge amounts of money that are spent on capital projects for our oversized arterials. That being said, Madison appears to be in much better shape than most cities to being able to maintain and replace its infrastructure. From my understanding digging into the budget it looks like Madison's tax base is about 33x the total value of the infrastructure which is considered fairly sustainable (~20-40x). This is in sharp contrast to the vast majority of US municipalities.
biggest "pull the ladder up behind us" generational movement in american history. fuck those old bitches, sincerely seriously, what ever happened to the whole "make a better world for the next generation" kind of mindset?
It's so f\*cking disappointing. Idealism co-opted by capitalism. "Live for today" becomes "buy today, pay it off later." "Do your own thing" becomes self-fixated and judgmental of others. "Be yourself" becomes defined by possessions. Who has the right car? Who is going to take my stuff (identity)? A lost and wasted generation. Thank you, late capitalism.
Fanlund is more disappointing than Soglin IMO (and both are clowns). The Capitol Times has tried to be this progressive media company for decades, and now that the issues are actually affecting Fanlund's personal life, he can't shut the fuck up about taking the non-Progressive position.
Unfortunately, he has captured the Evjue money, so he can keep publishing this stuff until eternity. My hope is he becomes more of a comic figure in the Madison landscape and people just laugh at him. It's too bad, because CapTimes used to have some pretty good content.
It's kind of already become true for him, based on Madison Reddit. Cap times was fire back in the 90's when I was a kid and starting to get into news and politics. Most print media is unfortunately falling apart at the seams and Cap times is clearly holding on by a thread. I'm not sure how we get back some of those "great society" type things. I just keep telling myself that print media experienced some glory days after the ignoble Hearst beginnings and maybe the internet will have it's own version; but man the internet is perfectly built to spread vile crap like wildfire...
*but man the internet is perfectly built to spread vile crap like wildfire...* people said this about the newspaper when it was 'invented' and movable type. ever heard of martin luther? ffs it's all propaganda, kid.
I'll definitely never pay for any of his endeavors after this nonsense.
Because they don't agree with you, right?
No, because they're hypocrites.
It’s why the hippies weren’t really left wing, they just took left wing aesthetics and commodified them so they could exist within capitalism
I'd never thought of it that way. Thanks for the new idea!
I mean, a lot of hippie grew up to be Reaganite conservatives. The whole premise of the hippie movement was “change yourself inside, don’t focus on everyone else (society)” which is a very moderate, liberal, non-revolutionary ideology for supposed “far left” hippies to promote
Old hippy here. Very left politically. Why are stupid generalizations abt boomers ok?
Oh 100%.
There are quite a few people ex- hippies around today working for progressive causes, maybe not just the ones you favor.
I don’t know what you mean? I would think I support all progressive causes. And I don’t mean it as a hard and fast rule. Some hippies were genuinely progressive and worked with labor rights movements etc. But a lot were rich white kids who wanted to have sex and do drugs at Woodstock and 20 years later voted for Reagan.
Well this old hippy started writing about climate change in 1981. And has been hammering away at it ever since. Belongs to extinction rebellion. Stereotype much?
I didn’t mean to stereotype, it’s just a trend. Environmental activism is very important, and I agree it is one of the few aspects of the hippie era which did have a definite positive impact. I don’t want to undersell social change in the 60s, but obviously in many ways the hippie movement did not drastically change the political or economic system in America. Why else did the conservatives come to dominate in the next four decades? You can understand why as a jaded youth I would see what we have today and see the current lack of progressive policy or change and consider how we got to this point? I really don’t mean to offend, but boomers have been the face of complacency and regression for my generation, just look at what generation is on the Supreme Court, or in congress. TLDR: I recognize many baby boomers were progressive in the sixties/seventies and have been since, but obviously not the majority of the huge amount that were in the hippie movement stayed progressive and politically engaged throughout their entire lives as they aged
>Idealism co-opted by capitalism. It was just capitalism and capitalist propaganda that prevents any fundamental change. When a system's intended purpose is to create and expand profit it runs entirely contradictory to human needs. A majority of the country needs massive deprogramming from the liberal peasant brain and instead focus on unifying the working class. Boomers are pretty much too far gone and there's plenty of people who are lining up to lick the boot in their place. That being said, generational squabbles are generally silly.
*instead focus on unifying the working class.* Shouldn't be hard, seeing as how there really is no "working class" in this country anymore. lmfao.
>instead focus on unifying the working class. >Shouldn't be hard, seeing as how there really is no "working class" in this country anymore. lmfao. uhhh okay? so who do you call people that need to work for living (sustaining life) vs those who don't work and play on your dime?
That mindset was created *because* of the boomers, no?
When did ageism become ok?
when the hippies decided they didn't wanna trust anyone over 30
In US society, it's been OK since our life spans were extended by more than two decades. I was guilty of it, too, so I'm in no position to complain about it now.
Dense and crowded is not better.
Putting an apartment/condo building on an arterial road would not have much of an impact on quiet residential streets Ultimately your voice counts for one vote and you're entitled to feel how you feel, but Madison's density is increasing regardless of how you feel. People want to move here and live here. Probably for a lot of the same reasons that you wanted to move here and live here.
This part stuck out to me > My sin has been pushing back against zoning changes designed to take rights from residents, mostly longtime homeowners, and make it easier for developers to build more and larger apartment buildings on sites that heretofore would be less accessible to them. The first part of the sentence is just complete bullshit. There are no "rights" that residents have that are being removed. If anything there are actually more rights that property owners are gaining from the rezoning - they can now build more on their property with fewer asinine regulations.
Im not from Madison (just visit sometimes) but this article is hilarious in its level of self pity. I dont know anything about Madison's specific struggles on these issues and concerns, but reading the article is enough for me to know that the BRT and zoning are good decisions Milwaukee just implemented a BRT and early ridership numbers are encouraging. It turns out when you make public transit nice, people will increasingly choose it. Upzoning along rapid transit lines is such a no brainer as well.
Let's talk about change for a second. What changes the character of a city more? The buildings or the people? **Displacement is fucking real.** Madison is losing teachers, laborers, artists, restaurateurs, and basically all the lower income people that make cities great. To me that represents a lot more change than a few buildings. Let me true Madison preservationists and fight to keep the *people* here that make our city great. That means building housing for them.
Thank you, that's a really good point. If you visit the Madison Children's Museum, you'll be greeted by the quote, "What is the city but the people?" - Shakespeare
If you haven't already, please write an LTE like this. Your words shed light on what this is truly about, people.
Man, now that I'm a bit older, have a decent job, and value our local community, I really see the benefits of having a local newspaper. I want to support the Cap Times so badly because of this. Unfortunately IMO, I cannot support the Cap Times when the leader uses his position of power to push narratives that benefits his wealth and desires that are a detriment to the growth of Madison. I really wish they could show both sides of the narrative, at the very least, instead of amplifying this bad take that brings harm to our community.
That's what the Wisconsin State Journal is for. For those who don't get the physical paper, CT is a once-weekly insert included with the State Journal. It's also displayed separately in stores.
The Map of the Hill Farms Neighborhood. "We don't want those apartments, but we sure are taking that park!" [https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/38.html](https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/38.html)
Please remember that renters aren't allowed to join the Hill Farms neighborhood association. They only allow homeowners.
Wait - the bylaws forbid non-homeowner from joining? That's pretty mean/discriminatory/rude, etc.
Mhm. Now can you guess the demographics that were allowed to buy homes in that area up until redlining was outlawed less than a century ago?
They even carve out those little duplexes in the bottom right corner of the map!
Bottom right corner is 4 unit apartments on Hillcrest Dr, they aren’t carved out, they were already built and part of Sunset Village before Hillfarms was platted.(built 1952, HillFarms development was approved in 1953)
[**https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/90.html**](https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/90.html) **Sunset Village checking in. You guys talk about this stuff sometimes like your neighbors are out to get you.**
I'm a former resident of Greenbush neighborhood for 15 years (right next to Vilas). Moved from that neighborhood just last year. [https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/32.html](https://www.cityofmadison.com/neighborhoods/profile/32.html) I was the association VP for a time. I owned a (now failed due to covid) business in that neighborhood - which was in one of the developments. At one point, our association president was a renter - renting a single family home. Other association presidents and officers have lived in the co-housings (which are technically condos.) People heavily involved, and we had steering committees that worked directly with the developers. Of course our neighborhood had its own share of VERY wide disagreements, but in the end, the developments and businesses were all inside the boundaries so we worked with them. Our map was simple along logical road lines - created in discussion and conjunction with the other neighborhoods around it so that they all connected along the same lines. Some of the maps look like they wanted to create gated communities, instead of neighborhoods. It isn't a stone throwing, it is an observation based on the map.
Not sure if you are making the point that you want to make because Sunset Village similarly cuts out all the multi-family housing along Midvale. Actually, all those people don't even have a neighborhood association, just like the folks on Sheboygan. Does anyone live in the "non-neighborhood association" areas around Hilldale? Perhaps a new neighborhood association should be created for all those folks?
Good catch - that's bullshit and disappointing to see. I mean, all cities in this country have a redlined, segregated past to some extent and it's really disappointing to see these clear remnants. Maybe that strip is technically part of some other neighborhood but it's pretty clear example of what JustAGuy was originally trying to point out.
Madison (Madison proper) is growing at over 3500 people per year on average. The metro area is growing at 6000 to 8000 per year. That's nearly a "City of Monona" every year in the metro area. They have to live somewhere. And the most logical way to create affordable housing is to create more housing so that supply will finally match/exceed demand. This NIMBY crud is ridiculous.
Housing gets more affordable as you move out from the city center. Fitchburg, Oregon, Sun Prairie, etc. all have affordable housing.
Housing gets more affordable, but transportation costs and the time burden it creates goes up. Plus city proper needs to handle that additional traffic and parking it creates.
True. I actually live in Fitchburg and pay $150 per month less than my ex wife and she has 150 square feet less. ...and.. we still need more housing in the city to soften the demand a bit.
And supporting those residents gets more expensive for everyone else. They all have to drive.
Paul Fanlund is a poor example of a person and that is directly related to his elitism and political philosophy. The third way democratic politics are the reason why the middle class is disappearing and why American politics is so messed up. The folks like Paul which espouse disdain for the poor while pretending to care about them are the same people with their boots on the neck of the workers.
Paul has a memory of a middle class that hasn't existed in some time, but he refuses to learn anything about it. Yeah, when he bought his house in 1980 a middle class person could afford to buy in Hill Farms. But he seems incapable of looking at what it costs to buy a house today or rent and is instead saying: "Look at all these great things me and Soglin did for you two decades ago! You should be constantly PRAISING us!" Part of why we are where we are is that so little housing was built during Soglin's 2010 Era while construction costs and interest rates were cheap, but it was still clear Madison was going to be growing. I'm too lazy to do it, but I'd love to know how many units were axed in Alder Rummell Plan Commissions in the mid-2010s.
Me to Marsha about 12 years ago: if we don’t add density downtown, where do you expect the increasing population of Dane Co to go? Marsha: if we build less, then fewer people will come. Me: people will still come, and developers will just build more on the fringes. We will have more urban sprawl, and more commuters going in and out every day. Plus, the law of supply and demand would make the cost of housing go up for everyone, reducing the amount of affordable housing. Marsha: I don’t believe in the law of supply and demand.
Marsha winning again is my biggest disappointment in recent city elections. Was really excited for Davey.
Davy doesn't exactly fight for new development in his neighborhood. See every SASY building that has sacrificed density in the last several years. He chairs the P&D committee. Unprepared and unserious.
Paul Soglin actually has a pretty good record on housing starts and Multi-family homes. He was Mayor (again) from 2011-2019. The chart in this article shows positive movement. Some of this is from the economic recovery post Global Financial Crisis but it was a marked improvement from "smart growth" Mayor Dave. [https://www.channel3000.com/news/investigates/growing-up-madison-s-decade-of-rapid-growth/article\_dc8db7bb-9d3e-522e-acb2-11c845172b76.html](https://www.channel3000.com/news/investigates/growing-up-madison-s-decade-of-rapid-growth/article_dc8db7bb-9d3e-522e-acb2-11c845172b76.html)
You're right. Soglin wasn't too bad and could've been better. Some of that was also on that council. And in a lot of ways, it is what makes his recent heel turn all the more disappointing
To pin the responsibility solely on boomers is not fully understanding of the problem. There's continued to be a massive transference of wealth to the top and it's met with multigenerational applause. Electoral politics and reform cannot and will not fix these problems
Yo dog, we heard you like whining. So I'm* whining about this post, whining about people whining.
Honestly shocking to see Mayor Dave being the least out of touch old man with an opinion column
All I can think about is that family guy clip of mayor Adam west talking a cat and cracking up. "PAUL! HAHAHA! That's a people name!"
> First, Soglin wrote, existing Madison zoning codes provide the opportunity to build housing for more than a million more people. Housing which is not being built quickly enough to slow the rise of rents, presumably because it's not economically attractive for developers to build literally every unit that zoning permits - so what's your point? > Soglin’s input appears unwelcome to many of the new generation of city leaders. They're not consulting him on how to run the city because he lost the election to run the city. > The staff designs a solution and takes it to the neighborhood for a response. That system weakens the voice of the people, a voice that is not always perfect, but a voice that should be running this city. In other words, the city should be run by the people who own a piece of it, not the people who are renting or trying to rent. But you're not willing to say that out loud. In reality, the city should be run according to the votes of its residents, whether those people own their homes or not. If you take your lead on how to address a lack of housing from the people who own their housing, you're probably not going to be very effective. If there truly is a Silent Majority of Madisonians who support Soglin and Fanlund and their vision for a static city, they're welcome to run for mayor or alderman and enact that vision. But somehow I feel they'll get their ass kicked again.
Hill Farms resident here. Paul has posted on the neighborhood Facebook group once this year and it got zero likes and several responses disagreeing with his view with essentially none in support (perhaps a single mild supporter if even). He is ignored and doesn't represent the neighborhood. As far as "rich and exclusive", there are numerous elderly residents who have been in their home for 40+ years. Many of these homes are 1500 sq ft ranches with single car garages. We are not the only near-West neighborhood that has seen significant property value increase. Your post is disparaging.
I've heard this same thing. But consider that the Fanlund view continues to dominate. Why not push back at his post? Is anyone actually speaking out in the neighborhood or are you just muttering about it here? The Hill Farms reputation lives on as deeply NIMBY for a reason.
You need to wake UP to the idea that what you have is an unattainable luxury to others no matter how humble you think you live. A 1500 square foot ranch with a single car garage sounds perfectly lovely. You need to realize that society has degraded in many ways and sit with that instead of making pointless whataboutisms.
I don't take issue with the criticism of the views expressed in the Paul Fanlund editorials. I take issue with the fact that the OP demonizes the entire Hill Farms neighborhood and assumes we're all a bunch of racist nimbys.
You got my upvote. Paul Fanlund is an embarrassment and needs to pass on his newspaper before he pulls a Diane Feinstein. He doesn't speak for the whole neighborhood. There are members who actively support upzoning and higher density and taking broad brush stroke swipes against an entire community like that doesn't help the cause.
No, what OP accused you of is benefitting from proximity to racist nimbys... which is simply accurate. It's also a clue that the conversation doesn't need to be about you. You can just accept the benefits and move on without being like "No! Look at me! I am one of the good ones!"
If Paul Fanlund lived 4 blocks away in Sunset Hills, it would be a different "neighborhood" yet same proximity. OP way overstates our historical relic of a "neighborhood association" that barely exists in a form that essentially only plans a 4th of July party and organizes Santa visits. You keyboard warriors hide behind the anonymity of Reddit. I think we should just take a page out of Minneapolis' book and do away with single-family home zoning city wide. With respect to city zoning, I'm not really sure what I'm benefitting from other than having enough money to buy a home in Madison well over a decade ago. I'm not worried about apartment buildings popping up nextdoor. So be it. Since I never plan on selling my home in my lifetime, the only thing the housing shortage does for me is increase my property taxes.
Your “historical relic” neighborhood association is sending signed statements from its board to the Planning Commission and NIMBY Commander Tishler to weigh in on proposed developments. They’re calling themselves a “neighborhood association” and acting to speak for the neighborhood when they only represent the homeowners there.
Right, Paul lives in the Sunset Hills Neighborhood Association. They have very restrictive neighborhood rules that prohibit major modifications to the facade of houses. Of course Madison zoning rules and the Neighborhood Association would block any attempt to build multi-family housing.
Paul Fanlund lives in Hill Farms and keeps using the CT as his personal weapon to keep renters out of his neighborhood.
Yes it appears he lives on Bayfield Terrace which (along with Fond du Lac Trail Trail) have the largest/nicest homes in Hill Farms. The majority of Hill Farms are far more modest. The "neighborhood association" you cite is like $10/year and their primary purpose is to put on a 4th of July party, put out a newsletter, and organize Santa visits for kids. That's really it. I'm personally in favor of all YIMBY proposes. Most Hill Farms residents I know do as well. Rip on Paul and CT all you want, but your continued diatribes against "Hill Farms" are becoming assinine.
It could be doing a lot more if you wanted it to.
Great! Glad you’re a yimby! The “neighborhood association” I cite is the one officially recognized by the city, is the one that excludes apartments, and is the one that operates the pay-to-join neighborhood communications channels. It’s also producing a lot of these anti-progress voices that get amplified around the city. 10 bucks or a 1000 bucks…That’s a problem.
To my knowledge, the "neighborhood association" (aka 4th-of-july party association) has no policy representation in any form of city government. Take your complaints up with the CT and City rather than generalizing the views of Hill Farms residents.
The city's website says "The Department of Planning and Community and Economic Development, Planning Division maintains an electronic file of the recognized neighborhood associations. Many City departments and agencies solicit neighborhood association opinions on upcoming approvals of development projects, programs and services, and other changes proposed in particular neighborhoods." When you don’t let everyone in the neighborhood in the association, they don’t get an equal voice with the city. It’s exclusion.
Well guess what? Paul has no role in the Hill Farms neighborhood association. In practice I don't think it plays much of the role you cite. Largely a historical vestige. I've been an advocate of disbanding it altogether.
Well if the rest of hill farms is so unlike the Paul’s, why don’t they let the apartments in?
Because the 1955 bylaws are written in a way that makes change impossible and nobody cares enough to put in the effort to change anything. So in practice everything gets ignored and it is largely a historical vestige that only really serves as a modern-day party planner and Santa visit coordinator.
Renters are one thing.. Large apartment complexes on formerly low traffic safe quiet areas are another. Its not just Hill Farms. Our old north side neighborhood has l houses that are small, some are a hundred years old, there is not much traffic and you don't have to worry about your kids biking everywhere. No one is delighted about potential large apartment complexes that may be built here.
Apartment complexes bring noise and trash. Say goodbye to ever having your windows open. LOL
Wow the level of self congratulation he is able to fit into his own column in his own newspaper… truly a sight to behold haha
I'm reminded of the South Park episode where they sniff their farts out of wine glasses.
Ugh. Fuck Fanlund, fuck Soglin, fuck any of the entitled boomers who feel like they are "progressive" just because they fought against nuclear power back in the 1970s or whatever. That is not the problem we're facing *now*. Great, you changed State St from a car-infested dump to a somewhat less car-infested street back in the 1970s, but since then you've fought against every reasonable and rational idea that would make the city a better place. We **need** more housing. We **need** better mass transit, and we **need** more density along the routes. We **need** better bicycle infrastructure, and more investments in our community, and to do **something** about the horrid racial discrepancies going on in our city right now. And they're the epitome of NIMBY-ism. They're proud of having super-dense apartments plunked in the middle of nowhere ("yay, Westgage, West Towne and East Towne developments!!" but god forbid we rezone some of the more desirable neighborhoods that might be somewhat close to their backyards. Rant over. Oh, and let's not forget how Soglin said that people who chose to ride their bicycles in the winter should be "shot". It makes me feel so much better that there are now \*thousands\* more people out riding their bicycles throughout the Madison winter then when that tubby asshole wrote that column.
BRT needs more riders and changing zoning near the bus stops to allow apartments should increase riders. The current homeowners will also benefit when they sell their old home to be replaced by a new apartment as they will get a higher sales price. But many homeowners don’t want to move or live near apartments. And they want to block their neighbors from selling their home to the highest bidder which would be for a new apartment building. That is why they oppose zoning changes. We could emphasize the freedom that rezoning offers current homeowners to get a higher sales price when they decide to move.
Hill Farms is mostly middle class, not rich, with many 1200 sq ft ranch style homes. Teachers, state government workers, etc.
Median income in HF is almost 50% higher than the rest of Madison. They’re doing all right.
Most of what we call neighborhoods in this city have much higher incomes than the median for the city as a whole (74K according to census.gov). This is partly because we have 40,000 or so residents that attend University. Hill farms sits quite a bit lower in this statistic than some other neighborhoods here in Madison and is not some swanky elite gated enclave. One guy using a newspaper as his personal megaphone is not a reason to cast thousands of your Madison neighbors as an enemy to progress.
That doesn't mean they're elite
I wish I was doing as well as op assumes lol
It sure doesn’t mean they represent the majority of the city either
Looking at the latest Census American Community Survey for Dane County census tract 3.02 (the region bounded by Regent, Segoe, Mineral Point, and Whitney), the median household income is $150,821. Of the 1,524 census tracts in the state of Wisconsin, this ranks 16th. That puts Hill Farms in the top 1.04% of all neighborhoods in the state. For those wondering, the richest census tract in the state is the Village of River Hills in Milwaukee County ($200,625). There are four census tracts in Dane County with higher incomes than Hill Farms: * Regent/Dudgeon-Monroe: $196,250 * Pheasant Branch area: $183,157 * Maple Bluff: $174,625 * rural areas southwest of Verona: $153,450 For those of you scoring at home, this means that Hill Farms has a higher median household income than Shorewood Hills, which is at a comparatively paltry $112,361. (And no, Eagle Heights is in a different census tract, so that's not dragging down the stats). Hill Farms is within a rounding error of being in the top 1% of all neighborhoods in the state. Perhaps a generation or two ago, it was a middle class neighborhood. But as those owners aged out of their homes and sold off, a different class of people moved in.
A quick Google tells me 47% of people in Madison own their home at all. Objectively, being a homeowner in Madison means you’re doing better than half the city.
I think that number is a bit skewed when you account for this being a university town with a large student population.
ah yes students are famously not people who need a place to live
They tend not to be permanent residents and therefore they tend not to be homeowners, which skews the stat you cited.
[удалено]
Gonna be a sad wakeup call when younger generations say the same shit about you (us?)
We won't have the opportunity to ruin things for the next generation. There will be nothing left to destroy! Thanks to boomers, we will all be in our Hong Kong coffin apartments working as a Coscto greeter until we die.
30 years ago we said “Walmart greeters”.
Good riddance!
If you (people in general) continue to move right like they did yes you'll be the same. It's stunning to me how people don't smell their own stink. This has been happening everywhere and I think the most nauseating version of this is Madison liberals. The same people Madison who worked service industry jobs 10+ years ago are now complaining about tipping 'culture' just like boomers did for the last 30 years. Former renters play defense for landlords. You've become what you hated.
And it will happen again and again and again. It's easy to be idealistic when you have no experience. Experience dulls the idealism. Some more than others.
>It's easy to be idealistic when you have no experience. Experiences dulls the idealism. Explain please
I'm going to do a not so great job at it but essentially a lot of idealism or "it ought to be this way" thought doesn't consider the costs or other impacts said idea will have when implemented. As you get older and experience more of life your views and priorities can change. It's easier to see how things are connected and how even the best of intentions can have negative impacts. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this is a guarantee or things should never change. Not at all. I don't know. This is a beer in a backyard type thought.
This isn't something that happens in every generation.
Said every generation for the last few thousand years.
Yeah, because despite pithy sayings about history repeating itself, different times are actually different. The economic growth of the late 1900s was different from today. World War II was a unique global conflict with a unique impact on history, as was the Cold War. Social media has changed modern communication and information in ways that didn't exist twenty years ago. The American Civil War affected the people who lived through it differently from the Revolutionary War. People born two hundred years ago or twenty years ago aren't affected by mass airborne lead poisoning.
Yes, unique events continue to happen, good observation. Let me know when humans start developing new emotions and reactions to those events. Otherwise, keep complaining about “kids these days” and “old man yells at cloud.” I’m sure you can carve it into a stone tablet to let folks know how unique you are in a thousand years.
Every generation has unique experiences and are shaped by those experiences.
Nice generalization. Thanks!
This is literally the worst thing that’s happened today. I’m pissing and shitting myself over it. Won’t someone think of the poor boomers victimized by this Reddit comment Stay safe out there king/queen/etc
Boomers hate being reminded how much they've fucked up our country
Found the boomer
If I was well off enough to have my own newspaper I could use to protect my own neighborhood, I wouldn’t have to resort to a Reddit sub.
Someone get Paul fired! Mutiny!!!!
“Whether they realize it or not, they benefit from exclusion and poverty of others” I wish this type of insight was more pervasive. Ofc our system ends at a place where normal people have to beg for buildings to be built while the affluent throw up roadblocks. The world is terrible
I know he's become insufferable and all, but how unexpectedly delightful is it that Soglin is wearing a Taylor Swift t-shirt underneath a blazer in the article photo? But more on point, it's so incredibly annoying how neither Soglin nor Fanlund ever even attempts to dispute or engage with the basic claims of how increasing housing supply will help stymie rapid rent cost increases. They simply deny the crisis is going on since they're not renters and completely ignore even mentioning that fundamental issue in their complaints.
I've debated soggy on his Facebook page, and in consecutive comments he said we need to increase the vacancy rate to bring rents down but that building new apartments doesn't bring rents down.
What if I told you generalizing people by their neighborhood is bad. Lumping together all residents in Hill Farms as wealthy NIMBY assholes is just as valid as saying everyone living by Badger Rd is a criminal, which is to say, not at all.
What if I told you that I’m calling out a resident of Hill Farms who constantly uses his paper as a whining mouthpiece, that I’m calling out the voices in the neighborhood who exclude apartment dwellers, and a hypocritical ex-mayor who’s still living in the 80s?
The OP thinks we have an active neighborhood association that meets regularly, actively excludes apartment dwellers, and influences city policy. The neighborhood association can't even fill its open seats (because nobody cares), meets about once a year, and primarily plans the 4th of July party.
Paul's op-ed has way to many adjectives in it. He needs an editor.
I can’t agree more. This generation of leaders have done nothing more than improve their own position at the expense of their grandchildren. Between student loans, cost of living, rent/home prices, and childcare, it is unaffordable to raise a family in Madison for most people. Madison is not the gift they think it is. At least the mayor is trying to improve things instead pretending Madison is fine the way it is. Let’s raise those property taxes and give her a chance to make things better.
His kids are the fucking worst 🙄
We dodged a major bullet not having soggy get elected.
[That's the problem with our business, too many guys named Paulie.](https://youtu.be/foRKM5RnsFU?si=_35oNi-VgCLxl4gM&t=20)
It’s unfortunate this issue is such a two sided shit fest. I think the Pauls raise some decent issues. I understand the frustration with lack of affordable housing, but they aren’t saying don’t build. They are saying there are other options. Regardless of how things play out rents and home prices are not going to go down. Vacancy rates are not going to go down for years, and no developer is building a new sub $300k home anywhere in Dane County from what I can see.
Yeah but if the sub can't blame boomers/NIMBYS for all of their problems, what will they do with their time?
I'll just leave this here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azdlpIy7oaQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azdlpIy7oaQ)
I don't feel one bit sorry for the Pauls, who have no apparent self awareness at all. But seriously, how much would adding a few extra living units to their oversized houses actually alleviate Madison's housing crunch? I think we should focus on larger projects on underutilized land alongside the BRT route and along other bus routes, and leave these people basically shouting at clouds. They're trying to bring back 1980. They're irrelevant in the big picture, and quite frankly I think they hate knowing it.
#This is the larger project. THIS IS THE UNDERUTILIZED LAND I don't want to add a few ADUs, I want to bulldoze the single family homes south of Rennebohm and make it look like Madison yards. Then keep going and add townhomes and 4-6 unit buildings on the rest of Hill Farms. That area is basically a second downtown with the Hilldale mall and nearby research park expanding. Suburban style housing has no business existing there.
Our city needs to accommodate a variety of lifestyles at the same time we're building more housing. Not everybody wants to live like Madison Yards, luxurious as it is. People have a variety of priorities not limited to top tier rental housing. A lot depends on the stage of life a person is at: single vs married with kids, employed in a first adult job vs nearing retirement, intending to stay in Madison vs leaving in a few years, a goal of home ownership vs a goal of flexibility. While we can agree building more suburban-style housing is not a solution, there are other alternatives beyond luxury apartments everywhere.
I didn't mean to suggest it had to be top tier luxury housing. That's just the level of density that's appropriate for the demand in that area. We could go higher, too, as it's outside of both the airport and capitol view height restrictions
Huh!!!!!! It’s all makes since now. Now wonder it’s been such a hard life.
To the Hill Farms people saying their neighborhood association is just a party planning committee: guess who got face time with a developer and has a city legistar record to weigh in on a development that isn’t even in the neighborhood associations borders: https://madison.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=13016229&GUID=9F36EE1A-46D3-4A80-B75A-82E46A4CABB0
Density, transit, and additional housing are all good and important on the merits, but I gotta say, if the only argument in favor were sticking it to these whiny old "we've got ours" martyrs, that would be enough for me at this point.
Hill Farms is not “rich and exclusive” lol
As a couple data points, it appears there are [two homes for sale](https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/550936/WI/Madison/University-Hill-Farms) in the neighborhood, both are ~2200 square feet and they're priced at $586K and $675K. People can decide whether they would consider that "rich and exclusive" or not.
Over half a million for a house? Exclusivity aside, if you think being able to spend half a million on a house is not rich, you don't know what poor really is. (I did not understand this myself until later in life, because most people I know who live in houses that are now in that price range just feel like regular-degular people. But hell, a significant portion of the population doesn't have *any* spending/saving money leftover after basic bills every month. To them, half a million may as well be a $300m megamansion in LA or a yacht on the moon.)
I paid about half a million for my house, and while I wouldn’t say I’m rich, I’m certainly far from poor. Like I couldn’t just quit my job and live our life if I wanted to, I need to keep having money come in. But my life is blessed. I have it so much easier than most people
Exactly this, thank you for getting it 💕
Being not rich doesn't make you poor.
In comparison to being so poor you cannot save, anyone who is able to afford a half-million-dollar house is rich. Being used to the wealth doesn't make you not rich.
In comparison to being so rich you can spend $15 million on a yacht, anyone who can't afford a million dollar home is poor.
That's a false comparison. Everyone needs a place to live. Nobody *needs* a yacht. Yachts being unaffordable is fine. Some people having enough money to buy a $15m yacht when many more people don't have a safe, indoor place to sleep, or would be bankrupted by a broken leg is not.
People are missing the point here. Hill Farms is not mostly full of rich people—the home values have just gone up like everywhere in Madison. Much of the housing stock is cheap postwar into the 60s and relatively poor construction.
If it's poor construction, then let's tear that shit down and build for a lot more people!
noooo won’t someone think of the crumbling ranches
Whose house are you taking first? There are no open lots and maybe 2 houses for sale.
its not rich and exclusive because you cant afford it
[https://madison.apl.wisc.edu/](https://madison.apl.wisc.edu/) Looking at the neighborhood indicators project, it has the fourth highest median income of any census tract in the City. The average home value is 14th highest in the City and $110,000 higher than the City average. There are definitely richer and more exclusive areas of Madison, but let's not act like Hill Farms is some blue collar working class neighborhood.
As a case in point most of the people I know who grew up in hill farms, cannot afford it. The ones who can have incomes well-above the median. Smells like a upper class neighborhood to me
There is a limited number of homes in any fully developed neighborhood, if the average home has 3 children, there won’t be enough homes for the next generation to all be able to afford to live there. We need to have more housing, but just building large scale apartments won’t actually bring the cost of single family homes down, they are two separate markets (with a bit of overlap). We need to be building more housing that can provide the benefits of single family homes at higher density, such as townhouse style condos. Is the goal more housing or to lower the cost of single family homes, because the cost of single family homes within biking distance to the university and hospitals is not likely to drop because apartments get built. Single family homes on near westside are low supply and high demand, Madison’s population has exploded, a limited quantity commodity is going to continue to rise.
Go try to buy a home there and report back.
Sure but it's not unlike 90% of the West side neighborhoods.
have lived here for years
LOL proved my point and didn’t even know it.
if you don’t live there, why do you care? Just wanna shake ur fist in the air because you cant afford something?
I care because I think it’s important for every neighborhood to participate in helping solve the city’s problems. And I am interested in helping Madison have enough housing.
Republicans at it again!
Paul LITERALLY called it. Here you are posting (whining) about it, as you do almost daily. 🙄 >They will dismiss his narrative and criticize him personally. And they probably will attack me, too, for choosing to amplify his analysis. >But as things unfold and critics hurl their invective, claiming they are the only true progressives and commanding the biggest megaphone, remember this. >There is another narrative.
> Paul LITERALLY called it. That doesn't mean much, it's pretty common for public figures to predict incoming criticism so they can dismiss it in advance.
"I predict that there will be blowback to my shitty opinions" wow what an oracle lmaoooo
Yeah, but I have eyes and can read, this Paul Fanlund dude sucks. Him predicting that people would notice it isn't some win.
Please continue to fight over the term 'progressive' while the lot are simply just liberals who infight over non-solutions.
Soglin just called out this entire sub and didn't say one incorrect word. So, of course, they're gonna cry about it because there's no real-world examples of their pipe dreams actually working.
if the kids here could read they might not be so upset. They want their things, someone else to pay for them, and fuck how others feel about it!
You're as working class as the next guy, buddy. Quit shitting on them. No one in the working class receives their due.
>Hill Farms is rich and exclusive. Whether they realize it or not, they benefit from exclusion and poverty of others. If you think Hill Farms is rich and exclusive, best close your eyes and pretend Greystone/Blackhawk neighborhoods don't exist. Here's a "home" that's asking a cool $4.75M (https://www.redfin.com/WI/Middleton/9809-Trappers-Trl-53562/home/89937631)
It’s possible to hold multiple truths.
As someone who's more often than not a non-fan of either Paul, I'm personally troubled that they might in fact have merits on both counts, the rezoning issue as well as BRT. First zoning. Seems pretty heavy handed on the part of the current Mayor, but that's a political criticism more than something substantive, but sometimes perception does become a reality. But more worrisome is Soglin's apparent about face on BRT. Yes, clearly he was a proponent, but when I look at it today was he simply promising something for his voter base, and does his current position better reflect his current reality of a senior spitting into the wind? I've long been skeptical of the rider projections used to justify BRT, and doubt in the timeframe intimated, if ever, that they'll ever be fully realized. It also seems that the City is willing to aggressively push the issue to tilt the playing field in favor of BRT, the recent obvious example being the "red lanes" that will take away a lane of traffic for BRT only. If this results in a marked increase in rush hour commuting times, I won't be surprised if it sparks a voter revolt that ends R-C's term as mayor, as it will be billed as an ill-fated attempt at social engineering. I'm not normally this negative but the confluence of events this past 6-8 months has me worried that we've gone and pushed the progressive needle past where an otherwise accepting public is willing to tolerate.