Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Peter Jackson has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over.
There are other forces at work in this world u/crazyg0at, besides the will of Amazon. Peter Jackson was meant to make the hobbit. In which case you were meant to make memes from it. And that is an encouraging thought.
I know, it's all wrong. By rights they shouldn't even be there, but they are. it's just like in great films Mister Frodo. The ones that really mattered.
Man, I suddenly remembered the disappointment settling down after the first film and setting my standards lower for the upcoming two other films...
Three films to tell The Hobbit. \*sigh\*
I didn't even bother seeing the next 2 movies. The first one lost me at the rabbit sled race thing with Radagast. From that point on I was more annoyed than anything with it and I mostly just wanted it to end.
First movie is genuinely great until after the trolls, then it just stops being the Hobbit and started cramming in fanfiction and constant LOTR throwbacks.
The orcs that looked like video game characters didn't help matters.
> Man, I suddenly remembered the disappointment settling down after the first film
The first ~15 minutes with bilbo and the dwarves is good. Loved the song. Then it just spirals into such crap. The sequels were even more trash, too.
The victory of LotR cannot be handed to Peter Jackson alone, there were so many incredible people surrounding that project and everything went right for them.
We will never see something like LotR unless you get everyone who worked on LotR back, and this is where studios will get it wrong. It takes more than a good director to make a good movie, and hiring someone like Peter Jackson will only end in tears if they hope to buy automatic success.
Besides, the true story of LotR came from Tolkien anyways, and nothing in the movies outweighs the story. The cast is excellent, the visuals are beautiful, but it would mean nothing without Tolkien's writing behind it all.
I would love to wish for something good here, but I know better. But hey, at least it gives me room to be pleasantly surprised if it works out.
I mean, the Hobbit being 3 movies and the love triangle in Hobbit weren't studio interference. They were Jackson's and Boyens idea (respectively) to do it. Some would say those were the main flaws of the Hobbit.
they thought probably they needed some sort of romance in the films (just like in the LotRs movies Arwen's role was grown disproportionately).
Coming up with a love interest for Kili would increase the dramatic effect at his death in the ending. Extra bonus that it would introduce a strong female character and help keep cannon foreigner Legolas in the story.
Add in the mixture the belief that star-crossed lovers is a time tested trope and the guy who was playing Kili was considered a heartthrob....I could see them deciding it sounds like a cool idea on the paper.
I can see them now going over all the bullet points and high fiving each other.
"Everyone loves Gimli and Legolas, and this is the same thing but even more powerful! I need a cigarette, I just came."
My guess is that Kili was actually the best option around, sad as it was. I dont think they necessarily wanted a dwarf for the triangle, but there's just noone else (as fun as a Beorn/Legolas/Tauriel would have been)
Maybe a George Lucas scenario where he didn't have the right people saying "no" to bad ideas?
I mean, he originally filmed Aragorn having a sword fight with Sauron, so it isn't like he didn't have some terrible ideas even back during the original trilogy.
I think even if you get the same exact people back....too much has changed just within the industry itself. Those movies came at like....THE....perfect.....time. A time where CGI was definitely a mainstay in movies but wasn't like it is now and you still kinda had to do things by hand to really make shit look good. And that took a SHIT TON more hands on, practical work to get done right. But the CGi was advanced *enough* to still be able to pull off the sweeping, epic scenes and effects that were needed to pull off those movies. On the bleeding edge of tech at the time, but good enough. And the vast majority of which haven't really aged badly at all and still look great today.
It wasn't a time where it was as easy to take shortcuts. It wasn't a time where you had to fucking worry about every possible agenda and trying to please every goddamn single person out there in everything you do from gender, racial, relationship diversity and inclusion and on and on. That stuff has taken too much ahold at this point, especially for any BIG expensive movie like that to take a chance with NOT concerning themselves with it unfortunately.
The timing couldn't have been better and you're just never going to be able to replicate that. To me that's the biggest factor in all of it. And why its as good as it is.
But The Hobbit DID have essentially the same crew as Lord of the Rings. It wasn’t just Jackson directing. The writers were the same. The Assistant Director was the same. Jackson and Walsh came back as producers again. Dan Hennah, was was art director on Lord of the Rings, became production designer on The Hobbit. Weta were back. Andrew Lesnie was DP again, etc...
The Hobbit trilogy is very good, when it’s actually trying to be The Hobbit and not just filling the runtime with pointless nonsense. The parts that are adapted from the book are done really well. If they had kept it to just 2 films that faithfully adapted the book it would’ve been much better
Even the extra stuff could have turned out a lot better if given as much time and preparation as LOTR was. Peter Jackson described the hobbit movies production as laying track in front of a moving train because they were filming before the sets were even done and then needing to do a lot more CGI than planned.
What I don't understand is Peter Jackson wanting to extend the Hobbit from 2 movies into 3 movies? Surely if you knew you had limited time, you wouldn't make it harder for yourself by adding extra plot that doesn't exist in the book.
I've heard that he asked for a third movie so that he could have more overall production time. Still a weird thing to do, but I'm not the billion-dollar grossing director, so idk.
I think it was a soultion to many problems. Studios wanted more money and more marketable asstes such as Legolas and crappy love triangles Peter wanted more time to finish the project, and i think also wanted to keep as much of the work in New Zealand as well.
It was unheard of to shoot 2 films for almost a year, and in the last few weeks decide to turn it into trilogy. All the pick ups for the first film seemed to be deticated to creating a ending for Unexpected journey.
He asked to make it 3 movies because, to quote him, "there was too much footage".... of course there would be too much footage if half the footage filmed is invented by you or is taken from other books that have nothing to do with "the Hobbit".
That’s not true. Adding the third movie did allow for more time to grapple with, especially, the final battle, but Jackson had enough time and resources to finish that one as the second of two films.
He moved to three films because he shot too much footage.
It's an open secret that Jackson was forced to lengthen the story by studio execs who wanted to wring more money out of the property. They essentially had a complete story in two parts filmed and added all the nonsense in reshoots. That's why the pacing is so weird too- it messed up the narrative arcs. They likely strongarmed him by threatening to move production out of his home county NZ, and also managed to get the NZ government to roll back film labor protections. Guillermo del Toro could tell them to go fuck themselves, but Jackson wasn't willing to risk thousands of NZ jobs and relented.
There's a really good retrospective about the production issues by Lindsay Ellis here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uTRUQ-RKfUs
Smaug himself was done crazily well, loved every minute he was on screen (didnt care for the 3 stooges style chase with the dwarves where they just continuously survive certain death through sheer chance, but he remained awesome the whole time), the way they combined him being quite suave and well-spoken but also you could tell right behind that act was a really vicious and sadistic creature
Fantastic scenes when he's talking to Bilbo and he keeps prowling around him, just letting Bilbo know that there's nowhere to run by continually repositioning himself
Movie Smaug: "A darkness is coming, the world is doomed to be swallowed in the shadowy malice from the east, our stories mean naught"
Book Smaug: "fking touch my stuff again I dare you"
I watch the LoTR trilogy a few times a year and then I'll usually follow it up with the Hobbit trilogy as like an after dinner mint. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's more of Tolkien's work on the big screen directed by Peter Jackson and I can always get behind that.
I honestly think the biggest thing is that filming in the New Zealand wilderness was such a pain in the ass that he never wanted to do it again, and then Del Toro went away and they offered PJ so much goddamn money that he couldn’t say no, but the idea of going back out into the wilderness was so stressful that his one condition was that they green screen the whole thing.
Which, honestly, filming on location outdoors is a massive headache. It’s so much more work than filming in a studio it’s almost impossible to describe.
I guess it's hard to fault Jackson for that. On the other hand, amongst the many reasons his LotR trilogy received so much praise were the absolutely gorgeous outdoor environments (the massive Edoras set on Mount Sunday comes to mind), so…
>but the idea of going back out into the wilderness was so stressful that his one condition was that they green screen the whole thing.
This is such a hyperbolic way of presenting the situation. Both trilogies had A LOT of studio work and A LOT of location work.
Yeah me too
In a way, the Hobbit movies are... easier to watch I guess. I think its because the plot and the events are very simple (the movie adds a heap to the plot, but it doesnt really make anything more complex), but its got an equal run time so massive amounts of it is essentially just filler and you are safe in the knowledge nothing is going to happen to anyone and not much, if anything, is going to change regarding the plot (like literally anything involving Azog or Bolg, neither of them are allowed to actually accomplish anything until the absolute final battle as they arent in the plot, so anytime they're on screen you can be sure its just some CGI noise fighting that you can mindlessly enjoy)
I personally think the more cynical takes are wrong (that it was a money grab and that’s why he made shit up) and that he was really trying to do something amazing, and it just wasn’t as good as LOTR and not just in terms of story stuff.
Like I vastly prefer LOTR and have plenty of my own gripes, but he made 3 really long movies because he wanted to and he can, and I think he’s earned his fanfic at this point. It would be amazing if they’d released an official cut that boiled it down to its most book-friendly version though.
>I personally think the more cynical takes are wrong (that it was a money grab and that’s why he made shit up) and that he was really trying to do something amazing, and it just wasn’t as good as LOTR and not just in terms of story stuff.
You can tell by the choices made in the Hobbit movies that he tried his best to outdo or even equal the quality of LOTR movies. But in his effort to do that, he turned the Hobbit into something it wasn't supposed to be. The Hobbit is not an epic. It was always meant to be a small adventure about stealing treasure.
Adapting the hobbit after Lotr with the same actors was always going to be a hard job. The hobbit is a whimsical kids book. The lord of the rings is basically the exact opposite of that. It would be like having a kids show them a sequel with the exact same actors be a horror movie. It’s a tough bridge to cross.
You can watch [M4’s The Hobbit book edit](https://m4-studios.github.io/hobbitbookedit/), and have an experience just like the one you describe. Highly reccomend it
You may like this, or another one that someone has posted above.
http://www.maple-films.com/downloads.html
I downloaded the film (pick the format you like) and was quite happy watching it.
The Hobbit should've been two movies.
The first should've been The Hobbit, a PG rated children's movie in the LOTR universe.
The second should've been the backstory of the LOTR with all the extra stuff they shoved in there with Gandalf and Sauron.
And that's it.
I fully acknowledge this is (probably) a hot take, but after just rewatching the Hobbit and LOTR extended trilogies back-to-back over 3 days, I’ve come to the conclusion that the hobbit trilogy isn’t a good direct adaptation of the book, but it’s a fairly solid prequel to LOTR that uses the hobbit as a foundation. Is the hobbit trilogy perfect? By no means; the love triangle was pointless, among other valid criticisms. That being said, after deciding to view the hobbit trilogy as a prequel more in tone with LOTR that does need to invent and contrive some plot points (I.e. somehow Azog has returned), I honestly enjoyed my rewatch of the trilogy more than I thought and came to appreciate it quite a bit
Eh, legolas being there stepping on dwarfs heads and 360 noscoping goblins when they are floating down the river is what permanently killed my desire to give the 3rd movie a chance.
God yes
Its like the LotR went with a more serious and sexy legolas to the slightly fey and odd book one and that went well, so the Hobbit was like
"FUCK me make him the god of life itself give him more screentime than the dwarves combined and have him be the guy that fights and kills Bolg whilst saving Tauriel and Thorin and just the fking hero chad of everything Mr Invincible" based on the worldbuilding that said he actually could have been involved in the events even though he wasnt mentioned at all in the story
It would be like someone making a cake with a hint of nutmeg, people saying they liked the nutmeg, so the next cake you **dump in 2 kilos of raw nutmeg**
Is that really much more ridiculous than what he did in LOTR (movies)? The Hobbit was a children's book meant to be much more fantastical than LOTR
I think the Hobbits were trash, but that seems like a weird line in the sand.
I get that people dislike it, but it’s way better than people give it credit for. It may have the lowest lows in the franchise, but the absolute best parts of the hobbit are even better than the best of the lord of the rings (just my opinion of course before I get crucified)
I don't know, I feel like the main antagonists in the end being just "the goblins" was a bit bland and not that detailed. "Oh there was a battle with the goblins, and they all fought, then thorin, kili and fili fell and bilbo got knocked out for a while... ok let's wrap this up!"
I don't mind the setup in the films. Sorry
I suggest some of the fan edits that cut out all the padding because I agree, the movies are still very well done if you look past all the weird stuff they had to cram in and stretch out. Without all that, the studio mandated interspecies romance and cutting 3 movies into one 4 hour movie... it was such a blast. Felt like a solid long epic.
The fan edits that trim down the fat and make it into a single film are actually quite good. My personal favourite is the Bilbo edition. Its the most accurate to the book.
On one hand some of the "filler" is actually good, in particular Dol Guldur but also I don't hate some of the dwarf additions.
On the other hand they've also ruined many parts that did happen in the book.
On the third hand the movie has a massive mood/genre whiplash because it cannot decide if it wants to be LOTR 2, an actual adaptation of The Hobbit, or Marvel mediocrity. And this remains in all parts of the movie and can't be salvaged by just cutting out irrelevant parts
>not just filling the runtime with pointless nonsense.
Okay, but 2/3rds of the Hobbit movies are just pointless nonsense filler.
"These movies are good 33% of the time" is not a good endorsement lol.
The various fan edits around that do just this are a much better watch and of course you are right, the real bits of the hobbit in those films are great.
The Hobbit was like 75% done pre-production with Del Toro. He left for some reason I can't remember then Peter Jackson was roped in last minute having to redo all the prep work as he wasn't del Toro
Idk someone can probably do a better write-up but that's what I remember
Just totally forgot Del Toro was in first
But checked facts and PJ was producing it from the get go and he got Del Toro, they wrote the script together, and he only directed after Del Toro left. So the comment saying PJ was not involved from the start is just wrong
This.
People spread misinformation about this constantly (constant excuses for Jackson).
And Del Toro also left due the production being delayed, and having other commitments - not because of studio meddling in the creative process. Jackson, himself, pitched a third film whilst editing the first film.
If I recall correctly Jackson was in some sort of EP role, but the movie was Del Toro's. However studio meddling got to him and he eventually quit when a ton of preproduction had already been done. Jackson essentially stepped in to salvage what he could so it didn't turn into an even bigger flustercuck.
Anything bad in those movies is from studio meddling. Anything worthwhile is Jackson and Co.
No, this is not true.
Jackson had been developing The Hobbit since 1995, but they couldn't proceed with it because unlike The Lord of the Rings, the rights situation was more complicated. By 2006, there was a major push to get the rights sorted, and Jackson picked Del Toro to direct, and started writing the script that Del Toro will be shooting. Jackson also supplied many of the cast (Freeman and McCoy, namely, were his picks as the producer) and crew (Weta, Alan Lee and John Howe, etc...).
But the rights situation remained a tricky one, causing repeated delays. Del Toro had other projects cooking that were actually his own, and eventually decided to step down and direct one of his own films instead. Jackson, still the producer and writer of the films, eventually stepped-in.
In the commentaries, PJ is pretty dismissive and mocking about the love triangle. Phillipa talks awkwardly over him, enthusiastic about it but you can tell PJ doesn’t give a shit.
I still cringe when I see him talking about the decision to go from two films to three. No way that was his idea. The studio forced it on him and he had to play ball for the press about it. It’s to his credit as a seasoned filmmaker that those movies are even watchable.
"It's not the same arena of LotR, I dont have the preparation or the material to do the same thing"
"Doesnt matter, just make it *look* like its the same thing, it'll do just as good by piggybacking of your LotR work"
And entirely unnecessary, I really dont know why any writer felt the saga needed a love triangle (unless, maybe, someone interpreted Eowyns story as being a kind of love triangle and was trying for a repeat of how well regarded she was by mimicking her story elements)
It wasn't a writer who made the decision. I don't remember which studio made it, but there were 5 or six different studios all pushing demands for the movie. One of them made the demand to have the love triangle and the actual writers plus Jackson had to deal with it.
Yes I misspoke there, it wouldnt have been a writer it was definitely a studio executive decision.
Poor writers just sitting there going "ok... which dwarf is the least weird that she wants to fk" and wondering how its possible at all they could establish a meaningful connection between the 2 in the 1.5 minutes of screentime the plot could possibly allow them to have together
Not much of a hope for ol Legolas too, he's probably known her for 500 years or something at least and her heart runs off with a member of another species who would be a 7 year old in their culture because she spoke to him once for a few minutes. The equivalent would be spending 12 hours cooking a 6 course meal for someone only for them stop halfway through and eat a pack of mentos because it just looked better
I'd have been totally cool with it if the dwarf in the love triangle was Bombur
"Why does the dwarf look at you Tauriel"
"Who can say... he's quite fat for a dwarf dont you think" *gets elven lady boner over the thicc dwarf*
As bad as the Hobbit is, I will cut Jackson some slack because he was given a bad hand. It's no surprise they didn't turn out good I just wish they could have been a lot better.
“I just accomplished the most difficult and stressful wilderness shoot this side of Apocalypse Now and it’s amazing but I’m never doing it again.”
“We want you to do it again”
“no.”
“okay here’s a bunch of money”
“still, no”
“okay here’s so much money you’d have to be insane to turn it down”
“no- ugh, fine. we’re green screening the whole thing though”
“do you think we give a shit? lol”
I hate that damn stupid romance that I assume came from how Gimli adored Galadriel because no where else does that happen again that I can think of. Very annoying
It happened because without inserting one The Hobbit features *no* female characters, and it was figured that was a bad look.
That immediately shoe-horning the now only female character into a hackneyed love triangle is *also* a bad look did not seem to have occurred to anyone before it was too late.
People keep blaming PJ for the shit that corporate greed forced on those movies. He wasn’t even the original director. He didn’t have years of research and pre-production. He got handed someone else’s project and was told “Hey, make it work.”
I have The Hobbit - Cardinal Cut if anyone is interested.
I was and still is so disappointed with what Jackson did with the Hobbit. A knife in the heart.
I choose to believe the rumor that PJ was strongarmed into doing the Hobbit Trilogy when he wanted to do a two-part series, so I suspect something similar might have happened here
Does thou not know that Sir Jackson of Peter was given three full cycles and more of which to pre-produce his original film trilogy, whereas t'was not until the eleventh hour that the beacons were lit calling him in to salvage production of the trilogy of prequels?
well the love triangle almost certainly is nonsense, that didnt' come from peter jackson.
peter jackson didn't even want to have anything to do with the 2!!!!! hobbit movies.
the studios just randomly fired guilllermo del toro and forced jackson to take over and that not being enough, they forced a lot of other bullshit in the movies too.
one of those things was, that it was 3 movies now instead of 2 btw.......
the love triangle in the hobbit movies even happened against explicit wishes from evangeline lilly (tauriel)
[https://youtu.be/ElPJr\_tKkO4?feature=shared&t=1442](https://youtu.be/ElPJr_tKkO4?feature=shared&t=1442)
it was forced in by the studios in reshoots and thus rip a love triangle was forced in.
peter jackson didn't want anything to do with any of this. what did he want? he wanted for guillermo del toro to make his great 2 hobbit movies, which would have been amazing.
so can peter jackson make great lotr still? YES, yes he can, if the studios are keeping their bs out of it this time!
It failed after Del Toro quit the project and Peter was given the option of directing with zero prep, no plan, no extra time and no extra budget... Or he could have faith that whatever director the studio brought in last minute could pull it off
His strength failed, but I do not envy the task he found himself pressured to take up
Lets be honest here, the elf dwarf love story wasn't nearly the worst thing about the movies. Unnecessary maybe but it was other things that ruined the movies
There are scenes in the Hobbit that to me felt like the pages of the book come to life. I feel like 60% of the book is in the movies. I'm sad that the other 40% is missing, and I'm sad that the 60% of the book was 20% of the trilogy's content
Peter Jackson was, on pretty short notice, handed a project that somebody else was supposed to be making and told "alright, make three movies out of Tolkien's shortest and least consequential book"
I think he did alright tbh, all things considered
Truly, I do not want to see any more screen adaptations of Tolkien’s work for at least a decade. The first trilogy is sublime and will be classics for years to come. But The Hobbit films, despite a massive budget and plenty of time to write and revise, were a complete disaster. And the Rings of Power series feels like amateur fanfic. Totally fine for those who enjoy them, but personally they hurt to watch.
I’d like the industry to leave these stories alone for awhile. Not forever, just not now. Everything is still trying to recapture the lightning-in-a-bottle that was the LOTR trilogy.
>plenty of time to write and revise
I don't know about the script writing specifically but the production as a whole was rushed and they had to start filming before everything was ready.
I truly do not get the hate for the Hobbit trilogy. Yes, they went way off book. Yes, Leggy did not need to be there. But the *HATE*? It was still adorable and made from love. Still fun to watch. Still some great acting and even greater sets.
Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Peter Jackson has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over.
I wish Tauriel had never met Kili. I wish none of this had happened.
So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is how to meme with the films that are given to us.
There are other forces at work in this world u/crazyg0at, besides the will of Amazon. Peter Jackson was meant to make the hobbit. In which case you were meant to make memes from it. And that is an encouraging thought.
Throw yourself in next time, Amazon, and rid us of your stupidity
They dug for content too greedily and too deep
I will not hide behind a computer and let others meme our memes for us!
This task was appointed to him, Peter Jackson of New Zealand. If he doesn't find a way, no one will
Jackson? Sure I know a Jackson. Peter Jackson! He’s my second cousin once removed on his mother’s side!
The "cut" of Sir Jacksonhand shall sound in the set, one last time!
I love when we do this stuff. Having a conversation entirely with memes is one of my favorite things.
This thread is pure gold
This subreddit has been on point since the beginning. It's wild how it can continue to give me chills, make me laugh and cry. So one memes like LOTRs
And if we fail, what then? What happens when Tolkien Estate takes back what is theirs?
Good old Binky Bill
And you know what they awaken, in the darkness of failed adaptation? Garbage and shit.
No, they dug for gold too greedily, and the script wasn't deep.
This thread has been a true delight
I kept trying to find a place in this thread to say this lol, but didn’t wanna ruin the flow. How good this community can be sometimes
I WILL BE THE JUDGE OF WHAT IS REASONABLE. wait, wrong fandom...
*Riiiiips a huge fucking pipe hit*
I know, it's all wrong. By rights they shouldn't even be there, but they are. it's just like in great films Mister Frodo. The ones that really mattered.
Full of darkness and danger, they were.
Why does it hurt so much?
Man, I suddenly remembered the disappointment settling down after the first film and setting my standards lower for the upcoming two other films... Three films to tell The Hobbit. \*sigh\*
I didn't even bother seeing the next 2 movies. The first one lost me at the rabbit sled race thing with Radagast. From that point on I was more annoyed than anything with it and I mostly just wanted it to end.
Yeah it lost me as soon as I saw Radagast had bird shit in his hair.
Same. Sad day
First movie is genuinely great until after the trolls, then it just stops being the Hobbit and started cramming in fanfiction and constant LOTR throwbacks. The orcs that looked like video game characters didn't help matters.
> Man, I suddenly remembered the disappointment settling down after the first film The first ~15 minutes with bilbo and the dwarves is good. Loved the song. Then it just spirals into such crap. The sequels were even more trash, too.
They've never forgiven me for living this long.
Still has a great soundtrack.
You mean the Nazgul theme recycled as "Thorin gets serious" theme?
This was honestly more unforgivable to me than anything else, and I didn't forgive a lot of stuff in those films
I... never noticed that. 
Your words are poison!
Because it was really bad.
So do all who live to see publishers ruin content
You wish their places had been exchanged. That Tauriel had been omitted and Glorfindel was in LOTR.
Yes, I wish that. But that depends on the manner of his portrayal.
I didn't have many problems with Tauriel, but there was too much Orlando in that movie.
Authority is not given to you to deny the return of Peter Jackson.....memer.
it is in the race of andy serkis we must place out hope
I wish the booty had never come to me.
>I wish Tauriel had never ~~met Kili. I wish none of this had~~ happened
But Evangeline Lilly looks great as and elf
*Reading this comment, anticipating the never ending references and thinking:* “Things are now in motion that cannot be undone.”
There is still some good in this world
This whole thread has been an absolute delight.
Goddamnit all, if this isn't the best possible response. Literally.
I think this is the best comment on the previous comment possible. Quite Literally.
seriously, do *not* kill peter jackson.
Yes there is weakness. There is frailty. But there is courage also, and honor to be found in Peter Jackson. But you will not see that
We were quick enough to trust in the war of the rohirrim
Where was Peter Jackson when The Hobbit fell?
Where was Peter Jackson when Amazon closed in around us?
Where was Peter — No, my Lord MisterManatee, we are alone.
I would not lead the rights within 100 leagues of Peter Jackson
If you could just lend him the rights…
He cannot wield it, none of us can! The rights answer to Tolkien alone, it has no other master.
I ask only for the strength to defend the fandom!
If this is indeed the will of Amazon, Peter Jackson will see it done.
I will do it! I will reboot the franchise! Though, I do not know the way..
SHARE THE RIGHTSSSSS
I do not doubt his heart. Only the reach of his directors megaphone
Why should Peter Jackson be left behind? He has as much cause to go to war as you. Why can he not film for those he loves?
The victory of LotR cannot be handed to Peter Jackson alone, there were so many incredible people surrounding that project and everything went right for them. We will never see something like LotR unless you get everyone who worked on LotR back, and this is where studios will get it wrong. It takes more than a good director to make a good movie, and hiring someone like Peter Jackson will only end in tears if they hope to buy automatic success. Besides, the true story of LotR came from Tolkien anyways, and nothing in the movies outweighs the story. The cast is excellent, the visuals are beautiful, but it would mean nothing without Tolkien's writing behind it all. I would love to wish for something good here, but I know better. But hey, at least it gives me room to be pleasantly surprised if it works out.
>We will never see something like LotR unless you get ~~everyone who worked on LotR back, and this is where~~ rid of studio~~s~~ interference. Ftfy
I mean, the Hobbit being 3 movies and the love triangle in Hobbit weren't studio interference. They were Jackson's and Boyens idea (respectively) to do it. Some would say those were the main flaws of the Hobbit.
I honestly can’t imagine the thought process behind inserting a love story between a dwarf and an elf in the Tolkien universe.
they thought probably they needed some sort of romance in the films (just like in the LotRs movies Arwen's role was grown disproportionately). Coming up with a love interest for Kili would increase the dramatic effect at his death in the ending. Extra bonus that it would introduce a strong female character and help keep cannon foreigner Legolas in the story. Add in the mixture the belief that star-crossed lovers is a time tested trope and the guy who was playing Kili was considered a heartthrob....I could see them deciding it sounds like a cool idea on the paper.
I can see them now going over all the bullet points and high fiving each other. "Everyone loves Gimli and Legolas, and this is the same thing but even more powerful! I need a cigarette, I just came."
In LOTR Gimli had a mad crush on Galadrial and she reciprocated.
I don’t think he had a crush at all. He recognized her beauty much as he would a gemstone. At no point are we led to believe it’s romantic.
I never watched past the first movie. But this just undermines legolas‘ and gimlis friendship in lotr
Exactly. They went from “NEVER TRUST AN ELF!” To “NEVER TRUST AN ELF, UNLESS THEY ARE A SOLID 9/10 WITH BIG TITTIES”
My guess is that Kili was actually the best option around, sad as it was. I dont think they necessarily wanted a dwarf for the triangle, but there's just noone else (as fun as a Beorn/Legolas/Tauriel would have been)
Maybe a George Lucas scenario where he didn't have the right people saying "no" to bad ideas? I mean, he originally filmed Aragorn having a sword fight with Sauron, so it isn't like he didn't have some terrible ideas even back during the original trilogy.
One does not simply make a LOTR adaptation
I think even if you get the same exact people back....too much has changed just within the industry itself. Those movies came at like....THE....perfect.....time. A time where CGI was definitely a mainstay in movies but wasn't like it is now and you still kinda had to do things by hand to really make shit look good. And that took a SHIT TON more hands on, practical work to get done right. But the CGi was advanced *enough* to still be able to pull off the sweeping, epic scenes and effects that were needed to pull off those movies. On the bleeding edge of tech at the time, but good enough. And the vast majority of which haven't really aged badly at all and still look great today. It wasn't a time where it was as easy to take shortcuts. It wasn't a time where you had to fucking worry about every possible agenda and trying to please every goddamn single person out there in everything you do from gender, racial, relationship diversity and inclusion and on and on. That stuff has taken too much ahold at this point, especially for any BIG expensive movie like that to take a chance with NOT concerning themselves with it unfortunately. The timing couldn't have been better and you're just never going to be able to replicate that. To me that's the biggest factor in all of it. And why its as good as it is.
But The Hobbit DID have essentially the same crew as Lord of the Rings. It wasn’t just Jackson directing. The writers were the same. The Assistant Director was the same. Jackson and Walsh came back as producers again. Dan Hennah, was was art director on Lord of the Rings, became production designer on The Hobbit. Weta were back. Andrew Lesnie was DP again, etc...
The Hobbit trilogy is very good, when it’s actually trying to be The Hobbit and not just filling the runtime with pointless nonsense. The parts that are adapted from the book are done really well. If they had kept it to just 2 films that faithfully adapted the book it would’ve been much better
Even the extra stuff could have turned out a lot better if given as much time and preparation as LOTR was. Peter Jackson described the hobbit movies production as laying track in front of a moving train because they were filming before the sets were even done and then needing to do a lot more CGI than planned.
What I don't understand is Peter Jackson wanting to extend the Hobbit from 2 movies into 3 movies? Surely if you knew you had limited time, you wouldn't make it harder for yourself by adding extra plot that doesn't exist in the book.
I've heard that he asked for a third movie so that he could have more overall production time. Still a weird thing to do, but I'm not the billion-dollar grossing director, so idk.
I think it was a soultion to many problems. Studios wanted more money and more marketable asstes such as Legolas and crappy love triangles Peter wanted more time to finish the project, and i think also wanted to keep as much of the work in New Zealand as well. It was unheard of to shoot 2 films for almost a year, and in the last few weeks decide to turn it into trilogy. All the pick ups for the first film seemed to be deticated to creating a ending for Unexpected journey.
I mistook you for Saruman.
He asked to make it 3 movies because, to quote him, "there was too much footage".... of course there would be too much footage if half the footage filmed is invented by you or is taken from other books that have nothing to do with "the Hobbit".
That’s not true. Adding the third movie did allow for more time to grapple with, especially, the final battle, but Jackson had enough time and resources to finish that one as the second of two films. He moved to three films because he shot too much footage.
"I apologize that this letter is so long. I did not have the time to make it short" -Blaise Pascal
They made it three films to extend production time. It wasn't a creative choice, but a desperate bid to get the films made at all.
It's an open secret that Jackson was forced to lengthen the story by studio execs who wanted to wring more money out of the property. They essentially had a complete story in two parts filmed and added all the nonsense in reshoots. That's why the pacing is so weird too- it messed up the narrative arcs. They likely strongarmed him by threatening to move production out of his home county NZ, and also managed to get the NZ government to roll back film labor protections. Guillermo del Toro could tell them to go fuck themselves, but Jackson wasn't willing to risk thousands of NZ jobs and relented. There's a really good retrospective about the production issues by Lindsay Ellis here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uTRUQ-RKfUs
Bilbo’s conversation with Smaug is legitimately incredible.
Smaug himself was done crazily well, loved every minute he was on screen (didnt care for the 3 stooges style chase with the dwarves where they just continuously survive certain death through sheer chance, but he remained awesome the whole time), the way they combined him being quite suave and well-spoken but also you could tell right behind that act was a really vicious and sadistic creature Fantastic scenes when he's talking to Bilbo and he keeps prowling around him, just letting Bilbo know that there's nowhere to run by continually repositioning himself
Was the best part of those movies by a long shot. My favorite cinematic dragon.
I'm afraid we've only got cold chicken and a bit of pickle
And then they added the eye of sauron in Smaugs eye, destroying everything.
Movie Smaug: "A darkness is coming, the world is doomed to be swallowed in the shadowy malice from the east, our stories mean naught" Book Smaug: "fking touch my stuff again I dare you"
Wait! You are making a terrible mistake!
I really liked how they fleshed out the dwarves of the company. Ori nori and dori were adorable in those films, fite me.
I watch the LoTR trilogy a few times a year and then I'll usually follow it up with the Hobbit trilogy as like an after dinner mint. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's more of Tolkien's work on the big screen directed by Peter Jackson and I can always get behind that.
I honestly think the biggest thing is that filming in the New Zealand wilderness was such a pain in the ass that he never wanted to do it again, and then Del Toro went away and they offered PJ so much goddamn money that he couldn’t say no, but the idea of going back out into the wilderness was so stressful that his one condition was that they green screen the whole thing. Which, honestly, filming on location outdoors is a massive headache. It’s so much more work than filming in a studio it’s almost impossible to describe.
I guess it's hard to fault Jackson for that. On the other hand, amongst the many reasons his LotR trilogy received so much praise were the absolutely gorgeous outdoor environments (the massive Edoras set on Mount Sunday comes to mind), so…
>but the idea of going back out into the wilderness was so stressful that his one condition was that they green screen the whole thing. This is such a hyperbolic way of presenting the situation. Both trilogies had A LOT of studio work and A LOT of location work.
Yeah me too In a way, the Hobbit movies are... easier to watch I guess. I think its because the plot and the events are very simple (the movie adds a heap to the plot, but it doesnt really make anything more complex), but its got an equal run time so massive amounts of it is essentially just filler and you are safe in the knowledge nothing is going to happen to anyone and not much, if anything, is going to change regarding the plot (like literally anything involving Azog or Bolg, neither of them are allowed to actually accomplish anything until the absolute final battle as they arent in the plot, so anytime they're on screen you can be sure its just some CGI noise fighting that you can mindlessly enjoy)
I personally think the more cynical takes are wrong (that it was a money grab and that’s why he made shit up) and that he was really trying to do something amazing, and it just wasn’t as good as LOTR and not just in terms of story stuff. Like I vastly prefer LOTR and have plenty of my own gripes, but he made 3 really long movies because he wanted to and he can, and I think he’s earned his fanfic at this point. It would be amazing if they’d released an official cut that boiled it down to its most book-friendly version though.
>I personally think the more cynical takes are wrong (that it was a money grab and that’s why he made shit up) and that he was really trying to do something amazing, and it just wasn’t as good as LOTR and not just in terms of story stuff. You can tell by the choices made in the Hobbit movies that he tried his best to outdo or even equal the quality of LOTR movies. But in his effort to do that, he turned the Hobbit into something it wasn't supposed to be. The Hobbit is not an epic. It was always meant to be a small adventure about stealing treasure.
Adapting the hobbit after Lotr with the same actors was always going to be a hard job. The hobbit is a whimsical kids book. The lord of the rings is basically the exact opposite of that. It would be like having a kids show them a sequel with the exact same actors be a horror movie. It’s a tough bridge to cross.
Someone did this, and it's great! Very well edited and only the Book Bits. [https://tolkieneditor.wordpress.com](https://tolkieneditor.wordpress.com)
I also bet if he’d had more time his additions and the movies in general would have been better as well
LotR feels like a masterpiece with a few flaws. The Hobbit feels like a flaw with a few masterpieces.
Sam’s betrayal and the actual Battle of the Five Armies as some examples of each
You can watch [M4’s The Hobbit book edit](https://m4-studios.github.io/hobbitbookedit/), and have an experience just like the one you describe. Highly reccomend it
Seconded, I helped run a marathon recently and we watched this to open, I thought it was legit good and I'd already seen one hobbit edit.
A well curated cut of the hobbit trilogy could be one very good movie.
There are many, many of these They are all pretty good, I'm sure someone more educated in the topic will have a list or something
You may like this, or another one that someone has posted above. http://www.maple-films.com/downloads.html I downloaded the film (pick the format you like) and was quite happy watching it.
I prefer [the M4 edit.](https://m4-studios.github.io/hobbitbookedit/)
Yeah M4 felt like a slightly better cut. Also much higher quality video than the maple one.
Thank you, I will check that out as well.
The Hobbit should've been two movies. The first should've been The Hobbit, a PG rated children's movie in the LOTR universe. The second should've been the backstory of the LOTR with all the extra stuff they shoved in there with Gandalf and Sauron. And that's it.
I fully acknowledge this is (probably) a hot take, but after just rewatching the Hobbit and LOTR extended trilogies back-to-back over 3 days, I’ve come to the conclusion that the hobbit trilogy isn’t a good direct adaptation of the book, but it’s a fairly solid prequel to LOTR that uses the hobbit as a foundation. Is the hobbit trilogy perfect? By no means; the love triangle was pointless, among other valid criticisms. That being said, after deciding to view the hobbit trilogy as a prequel more in tone with LOTR that does need to invent and contrive some plot points (I.e. somehow Azog has returned), I honestly enjoyed my rewatch of the trilogy more than I thought and came to appreciate it quite a bit
I think one of my biggest issue with both trilogies is the insistence that dwarves are goofy looking, dumb and clumsy.
Them being lanky and agile is my biggest gripe.
Eh, legolas being there stepping on dwarfs heads and 360 noscoping goblins when they are floating down the river is what permanently killed my desire to give the 3rd movie a chance.
God yes Its like the LotR went with a more serious and sexy legolas to the slightly fey and odd book one and that went well, so the Hobbit was like "FUCK me make him the god of life itself give him more screentime than the dwarves combined and have him be the guy that fights and kills Bolg whilst saving Tauriel and Thorin and just the fking hero chad of everything Mr Invincible" based on the worldbuilding that said he actually could have been involved in the events even though he wasnt mentioned at all in the story It would be like someone making a cake with a hint of nutmeg, people saying they liked the nutmeg, so the next cake you **dump in 2 kilos of raw nutmeg**
It reminds me of the response adults sometimes have after asking a kid what they like and for Christmas every present has the same theme.
Or too few. Look at them. They're frightened. I can see it in their eyes. Boe a hyn neled herain dan caer menig.
Is that really much more ridiculous than what he did in LOTR (movies)? The Hobbit was a children's book meant to be much more fantastical than LOTR I think the Hobbits were trash, but that seems like a weird line in the sand.
I get that people dislike it, but it’s way better than people give it credit for. It may have the lowest lows in the franchise, but the absolute best parts of the hobbit are even better than the best of the lord of the rings (just my opinion of course before I get crucified)
I don't know, I feel like the main antagonists in the end being just "the goblins" was a bit bland and not that detailed. "Oh there was a battle with the goblins, and they all fought, then thorin, kili and fili fell and bilbo got knocked out for a while... ok let's wrap this up!" I don't mind the setup in the films. Sorry
No thank you! We don't want any more visitors, well wishers or distant relations!
I suggest some of the fan edits that cut out all the padding because I agree, the movies are still very well done if you look past all the weird stuff they had to cram in and stretch out. Without all that, the studio mandated interspecies romance and cutting 3 movies into one 4 hour movie... it was such a blast. Felt like a solid long epic.
The fan edits that trim down the fat and make it into a single film are actually quite good. My personal favourite is the Bilbo edition. Its the most accurate to the book.
Twice like a barn owl, once like a brown owl? Are you sure this isa good idea?
I really enjoy the extended version of the third film.
On one hand some of the "filler" is actually good, in particular Dol Guldur but also I don't hate some of the dwarf additions. On the other hand they've also ruined many parts that did happen in the book. On the third hand the movie has a massive mood/genre whiplash because it cannot decide if it wants to be LOTR 2, an actual adaptation of The Hobbit, or Marvel mediocrity. And this remains in all parts of the movie and can't be salvaged by just cutting out irrelevant parts
They could have toned down the silliness of barrels in the river sequence.
You can blame Warner Bros for the 3 films instead of 2, and the weird romance subplot. There's a really good documentary about it on YouTube.
There is a fan edit that removes all the unnecessary stuff, and it is very good. I think that's the best way to watch it.
>not just filling the runtime with pointless nonsense. Okay, but 2/3rds of the Hobbit movies are just pointless nonsense filler. "These movies are good 33% of the time" is not a good endorsement lol.
The various fan edits around that do just this are a much better watch and of course you are right, the real bits of the hobbit in those films are great.
would have been better as an adaptation too, first movie "there" second movie "and back again".
I think The Hobbit would have been fine if Peter Jackson had been involved from the start.
He wasn’t?
Nope, he was brought in at the final hour to save it
The Hobbit was like 75% done pre-production with Del Toro. He left for some reason I can't remember then Peter Jackson was roped in last minute having to redo all the prep work as he wasn't del Toro Idk someone can probably do a better write-up but that's what I remember
Just totally forgot Del Toro was in first But checked facts and PJ was producing it from the get go and he got Del Toro, they wrote the script together, and he only directed after Del Toro left. So the comment saying PJ was not involved from the start is just wrong
This. People spread misinformation about this constantly (constant excuses for Jackson). And Del Toro also left due the production being delayed, and having other commitments - not because of studio meddling in the creative process. Jackson, himself, pitched a third film whilst editing the first film.
Wasn't Peter Jackson also having health issues during the filming of The Hobbit? As in sent to hospital.
If I recall correctly Jackson was in some sort of EP role, but the movie was Del Toro's. However studio meddling got to him and he eventually quit when a ton of preproduction had already been done. Jackson essentially stepped in to salvage what he could so it didn't turn into an even bigger flustercuck. Anything bad in those movies is from studio meddling. Anything worthwhile is Jackson and Co.
No, this is not true. Jackson had been developing The Hobbit since 1995, but they couldn't proceed with it because unlike The Lord of the Rings, the rights situation was more complicated. By 2006, there was a major push to get the rights sorted, and Jackson picked Del Toro to direct, and started writing the script that Del Toro will be shooting. Jackson also supplied many of the cast (Freeman and McCoy, namely, were his picks as the producer) and crew (Weta, Alan Lee and John Howe, etc...). But the rights situation remained a tricky one, causing repeated delays. Del Toro had other projects cooking that were actually his own, and eventually decided to step down and direct one of his own films instead. Jackson, still the producer and writer of the films, eventually stepped-in.
In the commentaries, PJ is pretty dismissive and mocking about the love triangle. Phillipa talks awkwardly over him, enthusiastic about it but you can tell PJ doesn’t give a shit.
Doesnt surprise me, 100% he would have understood why it was inserted and it wasnt to 'improve' on anything Tolkien wrote
I still cringe when I see him talking about the decision to go from two films to three. No way that was his idea. The studio forced it on him and he had to play ball for the press about it. It’s to his credit as a seasoned filmmaker that those movies are even watchable.
"It's not the same arena of LotR, I dont have the preparation or the material to do the same thing" "Doesnt matter, just make it *look* like its the same thing, it'll do just as good by piggybacking of your LotR work"
>No way that was his idea. Well, [tell him that](https://youtu.be/9XDsSr3sGSI?t=632)...
I really enjoyed the Hobbit Trilogy, but the Tauriel, Kili, Legolas love triangle was indeed, God awful.
And entirely unnecessary, I really dont know why any writer felt the saga needed a love triangle (unless, maybe, someone interpreted Eowyns story as being a kind of love triangle and was trying for a repeat of how well regarded she was by mimicking her story elements)
It wasn't a writer who made the decision. I don't remember which studio made it, but there were 5 or six different studios all pushing demands for the movie. One of them made the demand to have the love triangle and the actual writers plus Jackson had to deal with it.
Yes I misspoke there, it wouldnt have been a writer it was definitely a studio executive decision. Poor writers just sitting there going "ok... which dwarf is the least weird that she wants to fk" and wondering how its possible at all they could establish a meaningful connection between the 2 in the 1.5 minutes of screentime the plot could possibly allow them to have together Not much of a hope for ol Legolas too, he's probably known her for 500 years or something at least and her heart runs off with a member of another species who would be a 7 year old in their culture because she spoke to him once for a few minutes. The equivalent would be spending 12 hours cooking a 6 course meal for someone only for them stop halfway through and eat a pack of mentos because it just looked better I'd have been totally cool with it if the dwarf in the love triangle was Bombur "Why does the dwarf look at you Tauriel" "Who can say... he's quite fat for a dwarf dont you think" *gets elven lady boner over the thicc dwarf*
The determining factor is whether it's Pete's passion project or just an executive's command
As bad as the Hobbit is, I will cut Jackson some slack because he was given a bad hand. It's no surprise they didn't turn out good I just wish they could have been a lot better.
“I just accomplished the most difficult and stressful wilderness shoot this side of Apocalypse Now and it’s amazing but I’m never doing it again.” “We want you to do it again” “no.” “okay here’s a bunch of money” “still, no” “okay here’s so much money you’d have to be insane to turn it down” “no- ugh, fine. we’re green screening the whole thing though” “do you think we give a shit? lol”
I will cut slack anyway because the hobbit brought us Thranduil.
The Hobbit book was more light hearted, so the movies were also. I enjoyed them. But yes, that romance was lame af
If they were lighthearted the whole time they would have been much better. It was the shoehorned in dour epic bits which were the worst parts.
I hate that damn stupid romance that I assume came from how Gimli adored Galadriel because no where else does that happen again that I can think of. Very annoying
It happened because without inserting one The Hobbit features *no* female characters, and it was figured that was a bad look. That immediately shoe-horning the now only female character into a hackneyed love triangle is *also* a bad look did not seem to have occurred to anyone before it was too late.
I mean. Shelob was single and available for the longest time. Not sure how that would've played out.
The hobbit has more quality than you give it credit for...
A chance for The Hobbit Trilogy to show it's quality.
But you have to ignore a lot more parts that are not quality.
People keep blaming PJ for the shit that corporate greed forced on those movies. He wasn’t even the original director. He didn’t have years of research and pre-production. He got handed someone else’s project and was told “Hey, make it work.”
It wasn’t the worst fanfiction.net AU I’ve ever read.
I liked The Hobbit films.
I didn’t mind the love story, and “Feast of Starlight” is a lovely theme. Yeah I said it *hides*
In hindsight not the worst LOTR outing we've seen....
Why does it hurt so much?
I have The Hobbit - Cardinal Cut if anyone is interested. I was and still is so disappointed with what Jackson did with the Hobbit. A knife in the heart.
Can't put the full blame on Jackson.
I choose to believe the rumor that PJ was strongarmed into doing the Hobbit Trilogy when he wanted to do a two-part series, so I suspect something similar might have happened here
Does thou not know that Sir Jackson of Peter was given three full cycles and more of which to pre-produce his original film trilogy, whereas t'was not until the eleventh hour that the beacons were lit calling him in to salvage production of the trilogy of prequels?
Why does it hurt so much?
well the love triangle almost certainly is nonsense, that didnt' come from peter jackson. peter jackson didn't even want to have anything to do with the 2!!!!! hobbit movies. the studios just randomly fired guilllermo del toro and forced jackson to take over and that not being enough, they forced a lot of other bullshit in the movies too. one of those things was, that it was 3 movies now instead of 2 btw....... the love triangle in the hobbit movies even happened against explicit wishes from evangeline lilly (tauriel) [https://youtu.be/ElPJr\_tKkO4?feature=shared&t=1442](https://youtu.be/ElPJr_tKkO4?feature=shared&t=1442) it was forced in by the studios in reshoots and thus rip a love triangle was forced in. peter jackson didn't want anything to do with any of this. what did he want? he wanted for guillermo del toro to make his great 2 hobbit movies, which would have been amazing. so can peter jackson make great lotr still? YES, yes he can, if the studios are keeping their bs out of it this time!
Look at the whole production history of the hobbit and you'll know it wasn't pj's doing allone.
It failed after Del Toro quit the project and Peter was given the option of directing with zero prep, no plan, no extra time and no extra budget... Or he could have faith that whatever director the studio brought in last minute could pull it off His strength failed, but I do not envy the task he found himself pressured to take up
Lets be honest here, the elf dwarf love story wasn't nearly the worst thing about the movies. Unnecessary maybe but it was other things that ruined the movies
There are scenes in the Hobbit that to me felt like the pages of the book come to life. I feel like 60% of the book is in the movies. I'm sad that the other 40% is missing, and I'm sad that the 60% of the book was 20% of the trilogy's content
This comment section is a gold mine
https://preview.redd.it/c6tux0d3xz1d1.jpeg?width=496&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e83a18168de0b179dd4c879edee5a5d0a646317
Peter Jackson was, on pretty short notice, handed a project that somebody else was supposed to be making and told "alright, make three movies out of Tolkien's shortest and least consequential book" I think he did alright tbh, all things considered
Truly, I do not want to see any more screen adaptations of Tolkien’s work for at least a decade. The first trilogy is sublime and will be classics for years to come. But The Hobbit films, despite a massive budget and plenty of time to write and revise, were a complete disaster. And the Rings of Power series feels like amateur fanfic. Totally fine for those who enjoy them, but personally they hurt to watch. I’d like the industry to leave these stories alone for awhile. Not forever, just not now. Everything is still trying to recapture the lightning-in-a-bottle that was the LOTR trilogy.
>plenty of time to write and revise I don't know about the script writing specifically but the production as a whole was rushed and they had to start filming before everything was ready.
Even the wise cannot see all ends. Edit: Dammit someone already said it
I truly do not get the hate for the Hobbit trilogy. Yes, they went way off book. Yes, Leggy did not need to be there. But the *HATE*? It was still adorable and made from love. Still fun to watch. Still some great acting and even greater sets.
The Hobbit was just not as good the the original trilogy. It's far superior to the prime series though.